Thank you Kel, this understanding takes away the confusion and fog of the trinitarian interpretation and puts the passage in context of the general teaching of Jesus and puts the believer in touch with Jesus and confirms the teaching of Jesus in the Gospels. It gives the believer the road-map to glory and that is; to follow Jesus, just as Paul also learnt and followed Jesus. Jesus is the blueprint, the roadmap to the Father, the way, the "how to", see the Father, know the Father. This feels like eating true spiritual food. Thank you.
Thank you Brother! The last few weeks has been a blessing listen and hearing the revelation of God's word he has taught you! This has clarified alot! May God continue to use you my brother!
you have well demonstrated how backdrop to bible writings is vital--we must try also to grasp Hebraic mind set which is reverse to our Greco-Roman so-called education
I think this is the right way to approach the passage, or song. Again, a very practical didactic from Paul and not primarily a theological statement. The assembly in Phillipi was almost all gentile with not enough Jewish men in the city to form a synagogue. The letter is addressed to the leaders unlike many other letters. Jesus said the gentile leaders tended to lord it over each other and the people but this should not be a characteristic of his disciples. The elders were jostling for position, glory and status among each other with a wrong mind set. James and Peter may have said it differently - Humble yourselves before the mighty hand of God and he will exalt you in due time.
Read the similar account in John 10 where the Jews were going to stone Jesus, they said, "U make yourself God". Jesus corrected them and clarified that he said, "I am the son of God".
I think another consideration here is that "form of God" may be summed up in Hebrews 1:3 where the writer said that the exalted Jesus Christ became the "radiance of God's glory" (i.e. outward appearance/form), as well as "the exact representation of his subsistence" (i.e. status/form). Thus, the exaltation of Jesus involved a change in both his physical appearance and his assurance (status). In the context of Philippians 2-3, there is a sense in which the use of MORFH ("form") takes into consideration the contrast between both the status (form of God / form of slave) and outward appearance (likeness of man / body of glory) that characterized Jesus Christ himself before the resurrection (Philippians 2:7-8) and after his ascension (Philippians 2:6; Philippians 3:21). I agree that there is certainly no implication of any "preexistence" or "incarnation" in the vocabulary or context of this exhortation to the disciples in Philippi.
also--Paul is talking about the reformed[if you like] now glorified Messiah who took his place at the right hand of the Father--not seeking equality[unlike satan]--then Paul says he continued his service to his Father-just as he did on earth--patiently waiting for the Father to put all enemies under his feet--PSALM 2
We are children of God not in nature we shall not share divinity with son but as humans we are joint heirs with Christ because Jesus is fully human being.
It is a tough subject as well as in reality we don't know who was Adam originally, who was created in image and likeness of God, being a pinnacle of all God's creation and more likely after all what happened and is happening we are still in a process of the continuing creation of a perfect bride for the perfect groom. Oh Father God, please reveal us the truth.
All clever words! Lets listen to the apostle's estimation of this matter "where is your wise man now? your man of learning? your subtle debator? LIMITED all of them" ( 1 Cor 1:20 NEB 1962) Then later in the same letter "Yet for us there is ONE GOD THE FATHER, from whom ALL BEING COMES toward whom we move, and one Lord Jesus Christ THROUGH whom all things came to be and we through him. Your presenter, if he knows greek will see the vast difference between 'From whom' & 'through'!
Luke 16:31 31 And he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to [the messages of] Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’” Zechariah 14:9 And יהוה shall be Sovereign over all the earth. In that day there shall be one יהוה, and His Name one
It seems to me that _morphē theou_ is better translated "form of a god", just as everyone translates _morphēn doulou_ in the next verse as "form of a slave/servant". Paul is not saying that Jesus exists in the form of the identity known as "God", but in the form of a deity (which means he has been given god-like authority to rule and judge creation). Verse 3 and 4 of this chapter tell us what Jesus' life is an example of: regarding others as superior to ourselves ("the Father is greater than I") and looking after the interests of others ("stop making my Father's house a marketplace!"). It does not make any sense that Paul should say that Jesus regarded himself equal with God in verse 6.
His is God but humble himself he said the father sent him but he himself humbled himself and made himself a servant and in human form 1timothy 3:16 God manifest in flesh Jesus is God
@@bexroots2324 there is not a single statement in the Bible, that Jesus became human after being something else. That is read into the text by presupposition.
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; Paul is stating that Jesus being and excepting that he's chosen to be Gods mouthpiece sent from God, Jesus never ever said he's equal with God, to try and take advantage of this power he was given. That's why it says Jesus never thought of even considered being equal with God and trying to take advantage of this gift he's been given. Example While Moses was in the very form of Yahweh he never even thought of himself equal to Yahweh. Exodus: Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. God made Moses into the very form of God, his spirit likeness metaphorically taking the place of God, it's the very same thing as Jesus, they both were given this authority and they both never took advantage of this given to them. The Bible explains itself by having Moses as the very same example of being in Gods likeness by being given authority of the Earth given authority to be eloahim god to Pharaoh and Aaron being his prophet. Jesus was eloahim to Israel just like Moses given authority to forgive sins and raise the Dead, but he never took advantage of this authority high status. The Angel of God carrying Yahweh's name is the exact same thing as Jesus, while the Angel being in the very form of Yahweh and God telling the people you better obey him or he wont have mercy on you the Angel didn't consider himself equal with God. Exodus 23. 20 Behold, I am sending an angel before you to protect you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to his voice; do not defy him, for he will not forgive rebellion, since My Name is in him. 22 But if you will listen carefully to his voice and do everything I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and a foe to your foes.…
Amazing how one can 'twist' the grammer to endevour to uphold an entrenched belief! " It doesnt really mean what it says, it means something else" is a common way trinitarians are unwilling to accept SIMPLE bible truths! Since God had it written to help mere humans discern spiritual matters why use terms so familair to us that 'mean sometnig else' like 'only begotten son' and 'God sent forth His son' and 'God raised jesus from the dead'.? None of those PLAIN statements are accepted as written!!
ഫിലിപ്പീ 2:6 HARPAGMOS = ROBERY = കവർന്നെടുക്കണം എന്നു ചിന്തിക്കാതെ 12:00 CALIGULA 17:0020:00 FORM OF GOD KJV IT SHOULD BE " Who, being in the form of God( SPIRITUAL FORM OR HEAVENLY BODY) , thought it not robbery to be equal with God: "Young's Literal Translation who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God,
I think another consideration is Jesus was in Gods form when Holy Spirit was poured out on him and he was glorified with the glory of God, this is how Jesus in my opinion was in the form of God. Jesus takes on a slaves form when he is handed over to the sons of men to be mocked, scorned and humiliated. He looses everything like Job by his disciples being scattered and he becomes a slave in the hands of men. Remember Israel predicaments prefigured Jesus and Israel was slaves to Egypt and Babylon. This is again how Jesus goes from glory to glory like Israel does and a Job and even the Temple.
Um, question, in what manuscript are you seeing that the word en or was, is not in the greek nt because I am seeing that it is there. At least in the TR. And other Byzantine texts.
I was hoping that you might have some work on John 6:35-8:12-10:9-10:11-11:25-14:6-15:1, the I am, and how they see this as God. Just started on this. This sinner is looking for a stronger faith to stay on a stronger faith to fight the battle of sin.
@kiwihans100 10 seconds ago (edited) @ZWilver Lets use a little logic here! Quoting Phil 2:6,7 to uphold the 'trinity' is flawed! Paul used two words; MORPH & HARPAGMOS. " Though he was in the form ( Morph) 0f God, he laid no claim ( harpagmos) to equality with God" ( 'REB). MORPH = 'to shape', to fashion' 'feature') Used at Mark 16:12 where Jesus appeared in a "diffent FORM as a 'traveller'. ( he was NOT a human traveller, but Jesus!) This shows that 'form of God' does NOT mean he WAS God any more than Jesus WAS the traveller! Secondly; the REB translates "he made NO claim to BE equel with God,". a totally different take to some 'trinitarian' versions that put 'Though He WAS equel with God'! The Greek word HARPAGMOS surely doesnt suggest that Jesus, already BEING equel 'snatched', 'grasped' 'tried to hold onto' equality with God, in fact he did the opposite! All Jesus comments about his coming to earth show it was WILLING "Look in the book it is written about me "I have come to do your will" e.t.c. Then we have the CONTEXT! Phil 2:9 is so clear Paul did NOT view Jesus as being either God or even equel to him for he states "Therefore GOD raised him to the heights & BESTOWED on him the name above all names" then finally, summing up his course of humility. Paul extols the Father with these words! And every tongue proclaim tha Jesus is Lord ( Not God!) TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER". This cliches it! Amen to that
You are saying though that exalted Christ is worshipped and every knee bow before Him. That does prove He is God, for only God is worshipped. Don't redefine worship either as JWs do. Christs equality with God is screamed out plainly in this verse, as in many others. Exalted by His finished work to glory He formerly shared with the Father Amen
@@brianguglielmin2873 You are incorrect. Proskyneo worship is given to all kinds of men in Scripture. It's all over the place. Your argument is based on a Trinitarian lie. The same proskyneo worship was given to David for example. All Israel bowed down low and worshiped the LORD God and King David as a single act because this human King was God's authority. David sat on the throne of God. Same thing with the man Jesus to whom God subjected all things. You are clinging to a big lie and that won't benefit you on Judgment Day.
This is not rocket science, John gives us the definition of of what being "equal with God" means. In John 5:18 Jesus called God his father and in the Jews eyes that was making yourself equal with God. So Paul carries this thought through but only applies it to Sonship.
cpom11 But we just can't read one text into another without being sure they are actually referring to the same thing. There are several ways one identity could be equal to another. That doesn't mean you are wrong but you just can't equate the two statements simply because they sound the same.
Cpom11, read what Jesus says in response. His enemies were constantly accusing him of blasphemy. Do you believe they were right and Jesus blasphemed? He was always correcting them. And in fact, they claimed that saying God was his Father meant he was claiming equality with God, and yet they also claimed that God was their Father. Jesus set them straight on that, saying that the devil was their father, meaning that they followed the devil. The Pharisees were constantly misunderstanding Jesus and Jesus was constantly correcting them. Pay close attention to what Jesus claimed about himself over and above what his enemies said, and you will find that Jesus was clear that he was the Messiah, a man who listened to God.
Exactly. He is currently exalted BECAUSE he didn't exalt himself. But a quick question... did Jesus know that Joseph was not his father and that Yahweh was his literal father? Because if I knew Yahweh was my father literally I would have to make sure I don't exalt myself over this unique position.
@@genghis1731 I think the idea is more Christ is exalted and glorified,…here’s how he got there Sort of like if I said Joe C was promoted to head captain, he didn’t get there by slacking off and being a bully but cared about his team and worked hard, therefore the coach made him captain Obviously a very basic example but you get it 1. Current status 2. Here’s how he got to that status I don’t know if I hold this view but I get it I also get the Adam Christology view
@@bobpolo2964 according to Jesus, he is a man who told the truth he heard from God. According to his apostle Paul, he is still a man, the mediator between God and man.
@@Eclectifying Jesus actually said he is the truth, the way, and the life. He didn't just tell the truth; he is the truth. Paul also said Jesus is the person who holds the universe together. More than a man.
Proskuneo means to adore/worship, not just honor given unto men or David. It never implies simple honor. You twist scriptures because you can't get it that God is One God revealed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Really? Well then, a lot of men were worshiped and adored in the Scriptures since many men received proskyneo including David. Want to back peddle on your lies again?
God never revealed Himself as three persons. That is nowhere in Scripture. He did reveal Himself IN His Son, and He lives in those of us who accept His Son. His Son shows us what He is like, and Jesus is the firstborn among many brethren, who should also show what God is like.
@@Eclectifying Jesus is Worshipped as God John 20:28, Romans 9:5 and Titus 2:13 reveals Christ is God our Savior. John 1 reveals Word with God IS God. See also Hebrews 1, Colossians 1, Revelation 1, 2, 22. 360 prophecies of Old Testament and Psalms and Proverbs are clear that Christ the Messiah is Lord and God, ONE with the Father and the Holy Spirit. One God forever. Turn from false cults and embrace Christ our God and Savior. Amen.❤️🙏
If they were worshipping all those mere creatures then that would be idolatry. Obviously only honored them while Christ is worshipped because He is God manifest in the flesh, sent from Father, vindicated by the Holy Spirit. 1Timothy 3:16.
That's nice but it doesn't remove the FACT that all kinds of men in Scripture received proskyneo. So now what are you going to do since you have claimed this is worship only due to God? Make up even more lies to cover your lies like you always do?
I showed you tons of scripture revealing Christ is Divine Son and worshipped. Hebrews 1 shows ALL God's Holy angels worshipping Him in His Incarnation in Bethlehem. Its clear as day but if you choose to reject Savior then that is up to you. John 17 reveals Distinction of Personhood and Divine Relationship of Father and Son as ONE sharing Glory before ALL creation evidentially dear.❤🙏
I notice how you are CONSTANTLY referring to your script. No, "Form of God" refers to His preincarnate state. He "emptied" himself and then he humbled himself. That is how the text reads. You say "a present participle can be chronologically subsequent to the time of the action of the main verb especially when the participle expresses the resulting purpose of the main verb. " If that is true, then surely you can show us an example of this type of arrangement. IF not, it is simply your word.
I agree the Word and God are identical and where the Father is so is the Son and where the Son is so is the Holy Spirit. Not three gods but One God revealed as Father, Son and Spirit. The Son and Spirit have Mind and Will so arenot idea or force of God but is full expression and personal manifestation of God.
Certainly it isn't Daniel worshipped. The unique Christ Son of Man with and is Ancient of Days is presented before the Father and revealed Divine Son in Daniel 7 and 10 and as well Revelation 1 and 2. The Lord Jesus is the Living Word/Lamb of God, God of God worshipped forever above all angels and fallen mankind or any of His creation.
As I am watching your video I am trying to understand your reasoning, but all I am seeing is your opinion about what you think it should be translated as. Not a very great argument. Also, I keep seeing you supposing your presupposition rather than looking at the text and trying to get what Paul is actually trying to say. Also I keep hearing you referring to a minority or translations and then trying to build an argument from their bad translation. I think you can do better with this text.
When referring to the most debated passage in the Bible we most definitely show up to it with our presupposition already established. So you try to find the best interpretation to support that presupposition. I see nothing at all wrong with that.
@@robertrecchia2642 The OP says that "form of God" is referring to AFTER exaltation. The passage says Jesus "emptied Himself" and further that He "humbled Himself" These appear as separate things not just a poetic repeating of words. To me, this suggests a 2 stage process, God -> man , man -> servant/sacrifice. Did this man make a plan with God and say "I'll die on the cross if you exalt me". How could a man, who had never been God, dream up the idea of being equal with God? Oh yeah, I remember! Genesis 3:1-4
@@leef_me8112 “Humbled & emptied” Same thing using similar terms. What Jesus did, he did as a human being. That’s the simplicity of it. Form (morphe) of a servant must be “outward appearance” because the “servant role” is visible. A servant does not have a “dna” specific to himself. When we leave Jesus as the virginally born, fully human being he was, it can make sense.
@@robertrecchia2642 >What Jesus did, he did as a human being. Really? How many human beings do you know that can >at will< lay down their life, and subsequently can >at will< take it [up] again? John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. ! Jesus said he would raise himself, and did, therefore He is God. >“Humbled & emptied” Same thing using similar terms. So Paul was just being verbose/wordy/poetic?
Very hard to follow, not a clear explanation. This is one of those verses that are impossible to explain by unitarians. I have not found a consistent satisfactory interpretation from the unitarian point of view
Jesus was not in the Form of God when he was in the Flesh, and you say to me why not listen to what Jesus said to the Jews in these Scripture verses. An image is not the same substance of the person who is looking at themselves in the Mirror. John 5:37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form. 15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Colossians 1
But Trinitarians do it all the time! No fair. I guess u would have to determine if John was defining the concept of equality with God or or stating an accusation made by the Jews. It would seem to me that Sonship could at least be equated with being equal with God. Its one of the many things we will never fully understand not having lived in their world.
cpom11 Ultimately they do end up amounting to the same thing but on the surface, not really. Paul is thinking more in terms of authoritative position (form of God vs form of a servant).
In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God..... WAS WAS God ...Became flesh and dwelt among us. John 1 Isaiah 7:14 Born of a Virgin Immanuel GOD with us... Micah 5:2 born in Bethlehem. Worship by men and angels alike! Is King David a mere creature on that level? Get Real!!!
Its obviously no lie, so we know who is really lying here. Christ is God and worshipped. You put David and Abraham on same level as God so you are the blatant idolater.
St.John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. St.John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. Colossians 1:16-17 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. The words "He is" are both emphatic. He, and He only, is; all else is created. It is impossible not to refer to the "I am" of Eternal existence, as claimed by our Lord for Himself. "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58; comp. also John 1:15). Hence the word "before" should be taken, not of supreme dignity, but of pre-existence. By him all things consist.--That is, hold together in unity, obeying the primaeval law of their being. In this clause is attributed to our Lord, not only the creative act, but also the constant sustaining power, "in which all lives and moves and has its being," and which, even less than the creative agency, can be supposed to be a derivative and finite power, such as that of the Demiurgus of Gnostic speculation.
The Greek εν cannot mean “by” as in the Son being the one who created. Paul was not telling the Colossians that the Son created all things. This whole passage is about how Jesus has all authority now (which he didn’t have before).
Thank you Kel, this understanding takes away the confusion and fog of the trinitarian interpretation and puts the passage in context of the general teaching of Jesus and puts the believer in touch with Jesus and confirms the teaching of Jesus in the Gospels. It gives the believer the road-map to glory and that is; to follow Jesus, just as Paul also learnt and followed Jesus. Jesus is the blueprint, the roadmap to the Father, the way, the "how to", see the Father, know the Father. This feels like eating true spiritual food. Thank you.
Shane Walsh well said shane!
Thank you Brother! The last few weeks has been a blessing listen and hearing the revelation of God's word he has taught you! This has clarified alot! May God continue to use you my brother!
I think your description and melding of the controversy is the best explanation for correct understanding. I enjoyed this walk in the scriptures.
you have well demonstrated how backdrop to bible writings is vital--we must try also to grasp Hebraic mind set which is reverse to our Greco-Roman so-called education
I think this is the right way to approach the passage, or song. Again, a very practical didactic from Paul and not primarily a theological statement. The assembly in Phillipi was almost all gentile with not enough Jewish men in the city to form a synagogue. The letter is addressed to the leaders unlike many other letters. Jesus said the gentile leaders tended to lord it over each other and the people but this should not be a characteristic of his disciples. The elders were jostling for position, glory and status among each other with a wrong mind set. James and Peter may have said it differently - Humble yourselves before the mighty hand of God and he will exalt you in due time.
Whenever there is this level of obscurity where the best we can do is to take an educated guess, the best thing we can do is not guess.
Read the similar account in John 10 where the Jews were going to stone Jesus, they said, "U make yourself God". Jesus corrected them and clarified that he said, "I am the son of God".
cpom11 Jesus understood their charge as, "make yourself a god" which is why he responded with Psalm 82:6, "You are gods, sons of the Most High."
I think another consideration here is that "form of God" may be summed up in Hebrews 1:3 where the writer said that the exalted Jesus Christ became the "radiance of God's glory" (i.e. outward appearance/form), as well as "the exact representation of his subsistence" (i.e. status/form). Thus, the exaltation of Jesus involved a change in both his physical appearance and his assurance (status).
In the context of Philippians 2-3, there is a sense in which the use of MORFH ("form") takes into consideration the contrast between both the status (form of God / form of slave) and outward appearance (likeness of man / body of glory) that characterized Jesus Christ himself before the resurrection (Philippians 2:7-8) and after his ascension (Philippians 2:6; Philippians 3:21).
I agree that there is certainly no implication of any "preexistence" or "incarnation" in the vocabulary or context of this exhortation to the disciples in Philippi.
Rivers O Feden Good points.
also--Paul is talking about the reformed[if you like] now glorified Messiah who took his place at the right hand of the Father--not seeking equality[unlike satan]--then Paul says he continued his service to his Father-just as he did on earth--patiently waiting for the Father to put all enemies under his feet--PSALM 2
alun williams
whatever
alun williams right on brother
We are children of God not in nature we shall not share divinity with son but as humans we are joint heirs with Christ because Jesus is fully human being.
We are partakers of the divine nature. 2 Peter 1:4.
Awesome stuff, again.
It is a tough subject as well as in reality we don't know who was Adam originally, who was created in image and likeness of God, being a pinnacle of all God's creation and more likely after all what happened and is happening we are still in a process of the continuing creation of a perfect bride for the perfect groom. Oh Father God, please reveal us the truth.
All clever words! Lets listen to the apostle's estimation of this matter "where is your wise man now? your man of learning? your subtle debator? LIMITED all of them" ( 1 Cor 1:20 NEB 1962) Then later in the same letter "Yet for us there is ONE GOD THE FATHER, from whom ALL BEING COMES toward whom we move, and one Lord Jesus Christ THROUGH whom all things came to be and we through him. Your presenter, if he knows greek will see the vast difference between 'From whom' & 'through'!
Luke 16:31
31 And he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to [the messages of] Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Zechariah 14:9
And יהוה shall be Sovereign over all the earth. In that day there shall be one יהוה, and His Name one
It seems to me that _morphē theou_ is better translated "form of a god", just as everyone translates _morphēn doulou_ in the next verse as "form of a slave/servant". Paul is not saying that Jesus exists in the form of the identity known as "God", but in the form of a deity (which means he has been given god-like authority to rule and judge creation).
Verse 3 and 4 of this chapter tell us what Jesus' life is an example of: regarding others as superior to ourselves ("the Father is greater than I") and looking after the interests of others ("stop making my Father's house a marketplace!"). It does not make any sense that Paul should say that Jesus regarded himself equal with God in verse 6.
His is God but humble himself he said the father sent him but he himself humbled himself and made himself a servant and in human form 1timothy 3:16 God manifest in flesh Jesus is God
@@bexroots2324 there is not a single statement in the Bible, that Jesus became human after being something else. That is read into the text by presupposition.
@@Eclectifying idk wat your saying
@@Eclectifying John 1:1 is just one scripture please read there are many more your not seeing
Kel, do you have any updates to this video?
ruclips.net/video/cTRu1Q_yIWU/видео.html
Not that you'll answer me, but who do you think ther false witness is?
I am just curious.
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
Paul is stating that Jesus being and excepting that he's chosen to be Gods mouthpiece sent from God, Jesus never ever said he's equal with God, to try and take advantage of this power he was given.
That's why it says Jesus never thought of even considered being equal with God and trying to take advantage of this gift he's been given.
Example While Moses was in the very form of Yahweh he never even thought of himself equal to Yahweh.
Exodus: Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.
God made Moses into the very form of God, his spirit likeness metaphorically taking the place of God, it's the very same thing as Jesus, they both were given this authority and they both never took advantage of this given to them.
The Bible explains itself by having Moses as the very same example of being in Gods likeness by being given authority of the Earth given authority to be eloahim god to Pharaoh and Aaron being his prophet.
Jesus was eloahim to Israel just like Moses given authority to forgive sins and raise the Dead, but he never took advantage of this authority high status.
The Angel of God carrying Yahweh's name is the exact same thing as Jesus, while the Angel being in the very form of Yahweh and God telling the people you better obey him or he wont have mercy on you the Angel didn't consider himself equal with God. Exodus 23.
20 Behold, I am sending an angel before you to protect you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to his voice; do not defy him, for he will not forgive rebellion, since My Name is in him. 22 But if you will listen carefully to his voice and do everything I say,
I will be an enemy to your enemies and a foe to your foes.…
God appointed Moses. God invested His authority onto Moses. God performed the miracles. Moses was never anything more than a human being.
Amazing how one can 'twist' the grammer to endevour to uphold an entrenched belief! " It doesnt really mean what it says, it means something else" is a common way trinitarians are unwilling to accept SIMPLE bible truths! Since God had it written to help mere humans discern spiritual matters why use terms so familair to us that 'mean sometnig else' like 'only begotten son' and 'God sent forth His son' and 'God raised jesus from the dead'.? None of those PLAIN statements are accepted as written!!
ഫിലിപ്പീ 2:6 HARPAGMOS = ROBERY = കവർന്നെടുക്കണം എന്നു ചിന്തിക്കാതെ 12:00 CALIGULA 17:00 20:00 FORM OF GOD
KJV
IT SHOULD BE " Who, being in the form of God( SPIRITUAL FORM OR HEAVENLY BODY) , thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
"Young's Literal Translation
who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God,
I think another consideration is Jesus was in Gods form when Holy Spirit was poured out on him and he was glorified with the glory of God, this is how Jesus in my opinion was in the form of God. Jesus takes on a slaves form when he is handed over to the sons of men to be mocked, scorned and humiliated. He looses everything like Job by his disciples being scattered and he becomes a slave in the hands of men. Remember Israel predicaments prefigured Jesus and Israel was slaves to Egypt and Babylon. This is again how Jesus goes from glory to glory like Israel does and a Job and even the Temple.
Um, question, in what manuscript are you seeing that the word en or was, is not in the greek nt because I am seeing that it is there. At least in the TR. And other Byzantine texts.
I was hoping that you might have some work on John 6:35-8:12-10:9-10:11-11:25-14:6-15:1, the I am, and how they see this as God. Just started on this. This sinner is looking for a stronger faith to stay on a stronger faith to fight the battle of sin.
j.j Stewart The Spirit of Truth guides believers into all truth. Believe.
@kiwihans100
10 seconds ago (edited)
@ZWilver Lets use a little logic here! Quoting Phil 2:6,7 to uphold the 'trinity' is flawed! Paul used two words; MORPH & HARPAGMOS. " Though he was in the form ( Morph) 0f God, he laid no claim ( harpagmos) to equality with God" ( 'REB). MORPH = 'to shape', to fashion' 'feature') Used at Mark 16:12 where Jesus appeared in a "diffent FORM as a 'traveller'. ( he was NOT a human traveller, but Jesus!) This shows that 'form of God' does NOT mean he WAS God any more than Jesus WAS the traveller! Secondly; the REB translates "he made NO claim to BE equel with God,". a totally different take to some 'trinitarian' versions that put 'Though He WAS equel with God'! The Greek word HARPAGMOS surely doesnt suggest that Jesus, already BEING equel 'snatched', 'grasped' 'tried to hold onto' equality with God, in fact he did the opposite! All Jesus comments about his coming to earth show it was WILLING "Look in the book it is written about me "I have come to do your will" e.t.c. Then we have the CONTEXT! Phil 2:9 is so clear Paul did NOT view Jesus as being either God or even equel to him for he states "Therefore GOD raised him to the heights & BESTOWED on him the name above all names" then finally, summing up his course of humility. Paul extols the Father with these words! And every tongue proclaim tha Jesus is Lord ( Not God!) TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER". This cliches it! Amen to that
Christ doesn't become God at exaltation but takes His exalted humanity up with His everliving Godhead. Is Eternal Word/Son and Lamb of God.
Nobody said Christ became God at exaltation.
You are saying though that exalted Christ is worshipped and every knee bow before Him. That does prove He is God, for only God is worshipped. Don't redefine worship either as JWs do. Christs equality with God is screamed out plainly in this verse, as in many others. Exalted by His finished work to glory He formerly shared with the Father Amen
@@brianguglielmin2873 You are incorrect. Proskyneo worship is given to all kinds of men in Scripture. It's all over the place. Your argument is based on a Trinitarian lie. The same proskyneo worship was given to David for example. All Israel bowed down low and worshiped the LORD God and King David as a single act because this human King was God's authority. David sat on the throne of God. Same thing with the man Jesus to whom God subjected all things. You are clinging to a big lie and that won't benefit you on Judgment Day.
@@brianguglielmin2873 Daniel was worshipped
agreed--my thoughts too
This is not rocket science, John gives us the definition of of what being "equal with God" means. In John 5:18 Jesus called God his father and in the Jews eyes that was making yourself equal with God. So Paul carries this thought through but only applies it to Sonship.
cpom11 But we just can't read one text into another without being sure they are actually referring to the same thing. There are several ways one identity could be equal to another. That doesn't mean you are wrong but you just can't equate the two statements simply because they sound the same.
Cpom11, read what Jesus says in response. His enemies were constantly accusing him of blasphemy. Do you believe they were right and Jesus blasphemed? He was always correcting them. And in fact, they claimed that saying God was his Father meant he was claiming equality with God, and yet they also claimed that God was their Father. Jesus set them straight on that, saying that the devil was their father, meaning that they followed the devil. The Pharisees were constantly misunderstanding Jesus and Jesus was constantly correcting them. Pay close attention to what Jesus claimed about himself over and above what his enemies said, and you will find that Jesus was clear that he was the Messiah, a man who listened to God.
Exactly. He is currently exalted BECAUSE he didn't exalt himself. But a quick question... did Jesus know that Joseph was not his father and that Yahweh was his literal father? Because if I knew Yahweh was my father literally I would have to make sure I don't exalt myself over this unique position.
V6 - exalted christ
V7 - he took the form of servant
V8 - he died on the cross
V9- he "exalted again"
🤔
Not "exalted AGAIN"
@@TheTrinityDelusion the "exalted christ" is in verse 9
@@genghis1731 It's poetic
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@@genghis1731
I think the idea is more
Christ is exalted and glorified,…here’s how he got there
Sort of like if I said Joe C was promoted to head captain, he didn’t get there by slacking off and being a bully but cared about his team and worked hard, therefore the coach made him captain
Obviously a very basic example but you get it
1. Current status
2. Here’s how he got to that status
I don’t know if I hold this view but I get it
I also get the Adam Christology view
how u gonna form
an invisible God
That's the entire point of the incarnation
@@bobpolo2964that is the entire point of God creating man (including Jesus, the second Adam) in His Image and likeness.
@@Eclectifying Jesus is not a created being. He is God in the flesh.
@@bobpolo2964 according to Jesus, he is a man who told the truth he heard from God. According to his apostle Paul, he is still a man, the mediator between God and man.
@@Eclectifying Jesus actually said he is the truth, the way, and the life. He didn't just tell the truth; he is the truth. Paul also said Jesus is the person who holds the universe together. More than a man.
Proskuneo means to adore/worship, not just honor given unto men or David. It never implies simple honor. You twist scriptures because you can't get it that God is One God revealed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Really? Well then, a lot of men were worshiped and adored in the Scriptures since many men received proskyneo including David. Want to back peddle on your lies again?
God never revealed Himself as three persons. That is nowhere in Scripture. He did reveal Himself IN His Son, and He lives in those of us who accept His Son. His Son shows us what He is like, and Jesus is the firstborn among many brethren, who should also show what God is like.
@@Eclectifying Jesus is Worshipped as God John 20:28, Romans 9:5 and Titus 2:13 reveals Christ is God our Savior. John 1 reveals Word with God IS God. See also Hebrews 1, Colossians 1, Revelation 1, 2, 22. 360 prophecies of Old Testament and Psalms and Proverbs are clear that Christ the Messiah is Lord and God, ONE with the Father and the Holy Spirit. One God forever. Turn from false cults and embrace Christ our God and Savior. Amen.❤️🙏
If they were worshipping all those mere creatures then that would be idolatry. Obviously only honored them while Christ is worshipped because He is God manifest in the flesh, sent from Father, vindicated by the Holy Spirit. 1Timothy 3:16.
That's nice but it doesn't remove the FACT that all kinds of men in Scripture received proskyneo. So now what are you going to do since you have claimed this is worship only due to God? Make up even more lies to cover your lies like you always do?
I showed you tons of scripture revealing Christ is Divine Son and worshipped. Hebrews 1 shows ALL God's Holy angels worshipping Him in His Incarnation in Bethlehem. Its clear as day but if you choose to reject Savior then that is up to you. John 17 reveals Distinction of Personhood and Divine Relationship of Father and Son as ONE sharing Glory before ALL creation evidentially dear.❤🙏
I notice how you are CONSTANTLY referring to your script.
No, "Form of God" refers to His preincarnate state. He "emptied" himself
and then he humbled himself. That is how the text reads.
You say "a present participle can be chronologically subsequent to the time of the action of the main verb especially when the participle expresses the resulting purpose of the main verb. "
If that is true, then surely you can show us an example of this type of arrangement.
IF not, it is simply your word.
He did not literally empty himself his only form human
I agree the Word and God are identical and where the Father is so is the Son and where the Son is so is the Holy Spirit. Not three gods but One God revealed as Father, Son and Spirit. The Son and Spirit have Mind and Will so arenot idea or force of God but is full expression and personal manifestation of God.
Said no biblical writer ever. Read John 17:3.
Certainly it isn't Daniel worshipped. The unique Christ Son of Man with and is Ancient of Days is presented before the Father and revealed Divine Son in Daniel 7 and 10 and as well Revelation 1 and 2. The Lord Jesus is the Living Word/Lamb of God, God of God worshipped forever above all angels and fallen mankind or any of His creation.
As I am watching your video I am trying to understand your reasoning, but all I am seeing is your opinion about what you think it should be translated as. Not a very great argument. Also, I keep seeing you supposing your presupposition rather than looking at the text and trying to get what Paul is actually trying to say. Also I keep hearing you referring to a minority or translations and then trying to build an argument from their bad translation. I think you can do better with this text.
When referring to the most debated passage in the Bible we most definitely show up to it with our presupposition already established. So you try to find the best interpretation to support that presupposition. I see nothing at all wrong with that.
@@robertrecchia2642 The OP says that "form of God" is referring to AFTER exaltation.
The passage says Jesus "emptied Himself" and further that He "humbled Himself"
These appear as separate things not just a poetic repeating of words.
To me, this suggests a 2 stage process, God -> man , man -> servant/sacrifice.
Did this man make a plan with God and say "I'll die on the cross if you exalt me".
How could a man, who had never been God, dream up the idea of being equal with God?
Oh yeah, I remember! Genesis 3:1-4
@@leef_me8112 “Humbled & emptied” Same thing using similar terms. What Jesus did, he did as a human being. That’s the simplicity of it. Form (morphe) of a servant must be “outward appearance” because the “servant role” is visible. A servant does not have a “dna” specific to himself. When we leave Jesus as the virginally born, fully human being he was, it can make sense.
@@robertrecchia2642
>What Jesus did, he did as a human being.
Really? How many human beings do you know that can >at will< lay down their life,
and subsequently can >at will< take it [up] again?
John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
! Jesus said he would raise himself, and did, therefore He is God.
>“Humbled & emptied” Same thing using similar terms.
So Paul was just being verbose/wordy/poetic?
@@leef_me8112 I exegete beginning with Genesis 1:1. That’s where the story begins, in the Torah 🙂
Form of God, Form of Slave
= outside appearance, not God, not slave but the likeness of it.
Very hard to follow, not a clear explanation. This is one of those verses that are impossible to explain by unitarians. I have not found a consistent satisfactory interpretation from the unitarian point of view
Jesus was not in the Form of God when he was in the Flesh, and you say to me why not listen to what Jesus said to the Jews in these Scripture verses.
An image is not the same substance of the person who is looking at themselves in the Mirror.
John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form.
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Colossians 1
But Trinitarians do it all the time! No fair. I guess u would have to determine if John was defining the concept of equality with God or or stating an accusation made by the Jews. It would seem to me that Sonship could at least be equated with being equal with God. Its one of the many things we will never fully understand not having lived in their world.
cpom11 Ultimately they do end up amounting to the same thing but on the surface, not really. Paul is thinking more in terms of authoritative position (form of God vs form of a servant).
Formless form.
Non-circular circle? Dry water? Wet fire?
In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God..... WAS WAS God ...Became flesh and dwelt among us. John 1 Isaiah 7:14 Born of a Virgin Immanuel GOD with us... Micah 5:2 born in Bethlehem. Worship by men and angels alike! Is King David a mere creature on that level? Get Real!!!
God's begotten Son is the Living Word come to earth and named Jesus. This is God in the flesh John1 and Genesis 1 and 1 John 1.
It only saying the word and God are identical
Its obviously no lie, so we know who is really lying here. Christ is God and worshipped. You put David and Abraham on same level as God so you are the blatant idolater.
St.John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
St.John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Colossians 1:16-17
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
The words "He is" are both emphatic. He, and He only, is; all else is created. It is impossible not to refer to the "I am" of Eternal existence, as claimed by our Lord for Himself. "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58; comp. also John 1:15). Hence the word "before" should be taken, not of supreme dignity, but of pre-existence.
By him all things consist.--That is, hold together in unity, obeying the primaeval law of their being. In this clause is attributed to our Lord, not only the creative act, but also the constant sustaining power, "in which all lives and moves and has its being," and which, even less than the creative agency, can be supposed to be a derivative and finite power, such as that of the Demiurgus of Gnostic speculation.
The Greek εν cannot mean “by” as in the Son being the one who created. Paul was not telling the Colossians that the Son created all things. This whole passage is about how Jesus has all authority now (which he didn’t have before).
John 17:3. The Father is the one true God, according to Jesus.
No man has seen God, and yet you claim that Jesus, who was seen by everyone here on earth, is God. 🤔
Yes, in Jesus all consist because God has exalted him above all and is reconciling all to Himself through Jesus.