Based on that last video where the valve and piston clearance can be so tight i really see the importance of preventing spring surge and bouncing valves.
@@aquapneumaticsor you can just get Performance Trends Cam Analyzer, type in your actual _measured_ specs and see where you are, without breaking parts... 🙂
I am building such a budget that I knocked off two cylinders - 1996 Chevy 4.3 V6 even fire Vortec. I’m doing it DV style mostly. I have been watching all the videos from everyone and books. You are helping, thank you!
Great video. I was shrprised at how agressive my 406 motor is with a "smallish" cam that Schnieder ground. It is only a 292 adv 242@.050 but .622 lift 110/installed at 108 and sounds like a damn big cam now it makes sense 1.6 rockers. Its a good amount of lift in a short time for whatbit is. Thanks.
I agree. What you refer to as "intensity" can be analyzed by plotting the cam lobe profile (degrees vs. lift) and determining the ramp, velocities and accelerations. Yes, two cams with similar basic specs. for duration and lift can perform very differently. The one that accelerates/decelerates quicker will show more area under the curve and provide better breathing and higher power with higher rpm. It must also use heavier springs to prevent valve float and significantly reduce the life of the whole valve train. That and many other factors are the reasons race engines can not last very long without, at least, requiring a "refresh"...you don't get anything free when extracting more power from an engine.
Heavier, correct springs make nowhere the wear that too soft springs does... borderline valve toss eats seats, kills springs, you need a hammer to get the locks out of the retainer...
I absolutely love all the wisdom you are sharing/teaching us. Thank you for your help. Also thank you for your Service Brother, happy, upcoming, Veterans Day!
Again, another very informative video. Great work. This is one thing I actually do understand. The engine is a compromise; change one thing and everything else does too.
Brian, Another outstanding presentation. You make complex concepts easy to understand. Your information is really opening my understanding - I still have a long way to go. Thank you, Leo
When Tod at Power Driven Diesel had an injection pump stick on the drag strip, the block failed at 8500 rpm . The manufacturer asked for parts( for failure analysis) in the response they told Tod the piston had equal weight to a Bowing 737 hanging off the end of the rods that didn't brake.
Thank you Brian I really appreciate all you teach, you really make me think. I am seeing the mechanics of the lobe and lifters and starting to see the value of higher ratios on rockers, with softer easier lobes.
Theory I have about valve events that I may be completely misinformed on because I lack the experience which is why I pose this to those that do have the experience so I can learn I like street engines and I been thinking the periods of low lift during intake valve opening are helpful at lower rpm because it would create some velocity in the air to aid the filling of the cylinder as the valve continues to open. Then if the valve traveling towards close would benefit to syncing the closing of the intake valve to the relative lowering piston velocity to allow maintaining the velocity as the piston velocity goes down as it gets to BDC from the rod becoming relatively longer from the geometry of the rod position. This velocity is what allows the cylinder that little extra fill past BDC before the valve closing. However at higher RPM operation your going to be restricting the volume of air entering the cylinder with the slower ramp and the velocity isn't as important because the piston is supplying the velocity which is why a more intense lobe is beneficial in a racing application but not necessarily a street application. Ok I'm ready to be told I'm wrong and why
Great info brother!!! Thank you for putting that info out!!! I remember that video about the rings and piston. I've been watching since your first video.
Y’all seen Billy Godbold’s book, “High-Performance Cams & Valvetrains”… It’s a pretty “intense” read. Reading it for the third time, and have read sections of it a half dozen times.
Great information Brian. One thing I like to look at is the advertised duration vs .050 duration. If you have 2 cams with the same lift and duration as in your example 270 degrees. If you looked at a flat hydraulic cam @ 270 adv the .050 duration will only be about 210, but if you were looking at a hydraulic roller with the same adv duration of 270 and then the .050 duration would be more like 235 degrees. By just changing lifter type you get along more aggressive camshaft
Have you mapped the cylinder pressure vs valve position on a running engine? I don’t know if it’s even possible. But I am curious how much vacuum the cylinder has during overlap.
Here is the trick imo.I like using Hyd roller lobe designs and throw solid lifers on it tight lashed around .006 in general.This seems to work well and is very reliable and easy on parts.The thing is you can run light spring pressure it’s a win win to me!
Great explanation Brian, I needed to hear it for sure. Interesting story, one day my daughter came home crying, I asked her she said two boys were trying to beat her up because of her name. I told her to stand up and go defend her name. She went across the street and beat the shit out of both of them! True story.
Hi Brian So if I'm right you subtract the @.050 duration from the adv duration and you get an intensity number but that only calculates for a small area and kind of assumes the rest of the lobe. How do you get a more accurate measurement of the lobe intensity. What are rules of thumb for intensity numbers. How intense is too intense. I know there are many variables such as application, valve train weight etc but generally what numbers are going to be a good cam and what numbers for a soggy cam if that makes sense. PS was the second guy in the drawing a self portrait because he had the same hair as you. Andrew
Could you do a video on velocities? People throw around the importance of velocity but only explain it in the vague's ways. What average fps should we be shooting for 260? 300? 330? Etc.. When is it too fast or slow etc.. Is there different velocities needed for a street car to a street/strip to a full race car etc..? I've been enjoying your channel, I appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge, keep up the good work.
@@matthewperry6506 yes so velocity is in intensity are almost the same thing they pretty much are the same thing but we measure it in what's called intensity and and can that has a lot of intensity has very high velocity
@@SalterRacingEnginesSorry, I meant cylinder port Velocities. It's hard to find very good information on the subject that you can use in any practical way.
Another great, very informative video. I thought I heard you say in the beginning of the video there was a numerical formula to define the "Intenisty". Did I miss the formula?
@@bengibson8778 well there was but I did not give it out LOL I can't give out all my secrets but if you keep the cross section area around 90% of the valve you'll do very well
Thats why Chevy makes 1.38 rockers in LT1 . when 1.5 is spec so it only uses about 400 lift on 447 459 lift cam . My friends super charged 350 went 600 lift with steel rockers I told him his valve train was to heavy about 500 lift max or it would spin to hard and some thing would break.steel rockers to slow racing up ramps He spun it hard doing Burn out contest A Crome Molly push Rod Shot Right through Steel Rocker arm valve cover and hood I dont think it ever came down probably orbiting the moon lol Sounded like cannon going off HA HA HA And 3 shortend piston rods 1 looked like S lol good video Brian
I may be wrong, but i think i would want a quick opening rate, and hold it near max lift as long as possible, start it closing fast but use an inverse area near closing to set the valve on the seat more gently ?
Area under the curve. The better the head fills the cylinder the less intense the lobe has to be. That is why an ls doesn't need a big or aggressive in. lobe. Here is my question,why do they like so much overlap?
I've asked this question from folks many many times. Researched it and still don't have a defined answer. But, from everything that I've read and listened to, I believe it has to do with the intake to exhaust ration. This is not been confirmed by anyone to me. And I dang sure ain't an expert. But, I do try to relate it to what has been proven many times with say a SBC or SBF. The LS intake port is just that good. But then, the swirl variable comes in, and the port orientation and angle come in, and that tends to throw of my theory. My best guess is that the exhaust just didn't get improved as much. Most folks concentrate on getting air and fuel in, and don't worry about exhaust as much. Weingartner showed that awhile back, with just doing a mild bowl blend and valve job on the exhaust. Only variable that was changed. And the engine improved. Hope this helps a little. And I hope I'm on the correct line of thought.
350 sounds like a lot of lift for a 210-270cam my motorhome cam is 305 lift 205-256 w/ 904 lifter hyd flat tappet not radical Lots of improvement in cams 0-50 and 50-0 do not want to stall the flow by opening too early or too quick and want to preserve velocity during close to squeeze the most in before reversion GM spent $$$ on their Indy program on this area (and over the lobe and...) Of course opening too late or too slow you can never catch up So at what lift do we really want the valve to be out of the way??? do i need to point out that with an inverse flank roller you can get more intensity also with a FT cam (I liked the way you picked timing in the other video LCA sucks it is what it is) Take the lash up before cracking the valve, We played with ramp height with the 413 -426 max wedge ( heavy valves, 60's springs. B4 Ti retainers) Mopar used long ramps especially the close and really extra long on the exhaust to be quiet as cam wore and to be quiet (and to dilute the intake charge for smog) Lots of compromises I did intensity at the valve not the cam There was 25 hp between the Comp and Lunati 268 cams, both by UDHarold and the Lunati was quieter good explanation
@@Mpcoluv great question they really do help with the load that supplied to the lifter wheel or bottom I helped you spread it out and disperse it they also grow the camshaft a little larger
Nice video! Your name is more valuable than gold. BTW I would think an electric solenoid is going to be the way to go for an actuator. Fluids, are just too slow. Electrons are fast. Just curious, do you ever enlarge the cam bore to install a cam with a larger base circle to help control the valve train?
I am interested on info on the differences between cams for N/A and turbo and supercharged engines. That would be a cool camshaft challenge where y all would submit one cam for each package. A lot of work for the test however.
Well for one thing that cam will definitely rev to a high RPM but if you have a lazy or low intense lobe it will have a completely different power band than one that has a very high intense lobe
@SalterRacingEngines Thanks I had one custom ground for a turbo build I think it's closer to a hydraulic roller lobe trying to figure out what would be a good starting point with the torque converter
For general description on street pump gas engines that run power brakes power steering..etc... I wonder if its okay to say hey that cam would be too radical and not make enough vacuum and needs a more conservative profile??
In its simplest distillation, intensity is an engineering choice: longevity or power? Get greedy with intensity, and a cam is gone as fast as the tape recording that opened every Mission Impossible show plot. All cams fail at some point, and caught in the earliest stages of failure, its the flank that typically goes first - where the accelleration of valvetrain forces peak. What works in a 1/4 mile doesn't have a prayer at Le Mans. Choose wisely...
Mr salter id most def really like to some how “briefly” chat with you as I’m in the process of coming up with 2025 asphalt circle track Engine combo have been using 602 crate engine and would like to have a bit better more “racey” type of engine for next season. What is your email to be able to reach out to ya and 🤞🏻 be able to get in touch with ya as I just know you’ll come up with a legit combo.. Thanks in advance Mr Salter. 👍🏻
“A good name is to be chosen rather than great wealth; To be respected is better than silver and gold.”
Proverbs 22:1
I learn something new every time I watch one of your videos! 👍👍
Thank you.
Bob
Based on that last video where the valve and piston clearance can be so tight i really see the importance of preventing spring surge and bouncing valves.
I am going to make my own little spintron to check mine. Seems easy to do. Need to research a camera.
@aquapneumatics
That is a great idea.👍
@@aquapneumaticsor you can just get Performance Trends Cam Analyzer, type in your actual _measured_ specs and see where you are, without breaking parts... 🙂
I am building such a budget that I knocked off two cylinders - 1996 Chevy 4.3 V6 even fire Vortec. I’m doing it DV style mostly. I have been watching all the videos from everyone and books. You are helping, thank you!
I had a 4.3 vortec in a gmc safari xt I regret getting rid of it.
Great video. I was shrprised at how agressive my 406 motor is with a "smallish" cam that Schnieder ground. It is only a 292 adv 242@.050 but .622 lift
110/installed at 108 and sounds like a damn big cam now it makes sense 1.6 rockers. Its a good amount of lift in a short time for whatbit is. Thanks.
Out of everyone I have heard anywhere , you are my pick .
I agree.
What you refer to as "intensity" can be analyzed by plotting the cam lobe profile (degrees vs. lift) and determining the ramp, velocities and accelerations. Yes, two cams with similar basic specs. for duration and lift can perform very differently. The one that accelerates/decelerates quicker will show more area under the curve and provide better breathing and higher power with higher rpm. It must also use heavier springs to prevent valve float and significantly reduce the life of the whole valve train.
That and many other factors are the reasons race engines can not last very long without, at least, requiring a "refresh"...you don't get anything free when extracting more power from an engine.
Heavier, correct springs make nowhere the wear that too soft springs does... borderline valve toss eats seats, kills springs, you need a hammer to get the locks out of the retainer...
Outstanding explanation Brian,keep the great videos coming
I absolutely love all the wisdom you are sharing/teaching us. Thank you for your help. Also thank you for your Service Brother, happy, upcoming, Veterans Day!
Again, another very informative video. Great work. This is one thing I actually do understand. The engine is a compromise; change one thing and everything else does too.
Brian, Another outstanding presentation. You make complex concepts easy to understand. Your information is really opening my understanding - I still have a long way to go. Thank you, Leo
I will say, from all the folks I follow in YT, yours are very good for the type of engine you specialize on.
When Tod at Power Driven Diesel had an injection pump stick on the drag strip, the block failed at 8500 rpm . The manufacturer asked for parts( for failure analysis) in the response they told Tod the piston had equal weight to a Bowing 737 hanging off the end of the rods that didn't brake.
@@daviddroescher hahahaha amazing
another great video brian please keep them coming thanks
Thank you Brian I really appreciate all you teach, you really make me think. I am seeing the mechanics of the lobe and lifters and starting to see the value of higher ratios on rockers, with softer easier lobes.
Theory I have about valve events that I may be completely misinformed on because I lack the experience which is why I pose this to those that do have the experience so I can learn
I like street engines and I been thinking the periods of low lift during intake valve opening are helpful at lower rpm because it would create some velocity in the air to aid the filling of the cylinder as the valve continues to open. Then if the valve traveling towards close would benefit to syncing the closing of the intake valve to the relative lowering piston velocity to allow maintaining the velocity as the piston velocity goes down as it gets to BDC from the rod becoming relatively longer from the geometry of the rod position. This velocity is what allows the cylinder that little extra fill past BDC before the valve closing. However at higher RPM operation your going to be restricting the volume of air entering the cylinder with the slower ramp and the velocity isn't as important because the piston is supplying the velocity which is why a more intense lobe is beneficial in a racing application but not necessarily a street application.
Ok I'm ready to be told I'm wrong and why
I appreciate your teaching. Thanks
Another great video. Thanks for the information.
Fantastic explanation my friend. …This is why I’ve been using inverse radius solid roller camshafts for over 10 years. 💪🏻🇺🇸
love your vids Brian
Wow, your information is priceless...
Thx brother
Great info brother!!! Thank you for putting that info out!!! I remember that video about the rings and piston. I've been watching since your first video.
Y’all seen Billy Godbold’s book, “High-Performance Cams & Valvetrains”…
It’s a pretty “intense” read. Reading it for the third time, and have read sections of it a half dozen times.
Great information Brian. One thing I like to look at is the advertised duration vs .050 duration. If you have 2 cams with the same lift and duration as in your example 270 degrees. If you looked at a flat hydraulic cam @ 270 adv the .050 duration will only be about 210, but if you were looking at a hydraulic roller with the same adv duration of 270 and then the .050 duration would be more like 235 degrees. By just changing lifter type you get along more aggressive camshaft
Hydraulic profiles have no lash ramp.. so they naturally become more brutal.
You do great videos
Great video
Thx for sharing, Brian....🏁
👍👍👍, great show.
Hey Brian, great work as always. Could you do a video on Static, Dynamic Compression and cylinder pressure and what octane works with this.
Thanks
Have you mapped the cylinder pressure vs valve position on a running engine? I don’t know if it’s even possible. But I am curious how much vacuum the cylinder has during overlap.
Seen haltech or motec
with cylinder pressure sensors tuned by Shane T. Pretty interesting data should be able to do it with that I would think.
Very well explained.
Here is the trick imo.I like using Hyd roller lobe designs and throw solid lifers on it tight lashed around .006 in general.This seems to work well and is very reliable and easy on parts.The thing is you can run light spring pressure it’s a win win to me!
Salter's Sharpie CAD!! What's not to love?? 😉
@@Sunspot-19 LOL
Are there cases where the hp loss from the huge springs equals or offsets the hp gain from the cam that needed them?
Great explanation Brian, I needed to hear it for sure.
Interesting story, one day my daughter came home crying, I asked her she said two boys were trying to beat her up because of her name. I told her to stand up and go defend her name. She went across the street and beat the shit out of both of them! True story.
Hi Brian So if I'm right you subtract the @.050 duration from the adv duration and you get an intensity number but that only calculates for a small area and kind of assumes the rest of the lobe. How do you get a more accurate measurement of the lobe intensity. What are rules of thumb for intensity numbers. How intense is too intense. I know there are many variables such as application, valve train weight etc but generally what numbers are going to be a good cam and what numbers for a soggy cam if that makes sense. PS was the second guy in the drawing a self portrait because he had the same hair as you.
Andrew
This was really helpfull
for me👍
Could you do a video on velocities?
People throw around the importance of velocity but only explain it in the vague's ways.
What average fps should we be shooting for 260? 300? 330? Etc.. When is it too fast or slow etc..
Is there different velocities needed for a street car to a street/strip to a full race car etc..?
I've been enjoying your channel, I appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge, keep up the good work.
@@matthewperry6506 yes so velocity is in intensity are almost the same thing they pretty much are the same thing but we measure it in what's called intensity and and can that has a lot of intensity has very high velocity
@@SalterRacingEnginesSorry, I meant cylinder port Velocities. It's hard to find very good information on the subject that you can use in any practical way.
@matthewperry6506 oh got you yeah that's a great subject
Is side loading also referred to as tear and jerk?
Another great, very informative video. I thought I heard you say in the beginning of the video there was a numerical formula to define the "Intenisty". Did I miss the formula?
@@bengibson8778 well there was but I did not give it out LOL I can't give out all my secrets but if you keep the cross section area around 90% of the valve you'll do very well
@SalterRacingEngines I understand. Thanks
@@bengibson8778 Hi I don't. Could you explain it for a dummy like me. Thank you Andrew
You are awesome
I have to explain to customers all the time that horsepower and hours of durability are inverse related.
Thats why Chevy makes 1.38 rockers in LT1 .
when 1.5 is spec so it only uses about 400 lift on 447 459 lift cam .
My friends super charged 350 went 600 lift with steel rockers I told him his valve train was to heavy
about 500 lift max or it would spin to hard and some thing would break.steel rockers to slow racing up ramps
He spun it hard doing Burn out contest
A Crome Molly push Rod Shot Right through Steel Rocker arm valve cover and hood
I dont think it ever came down probably orbiting the moon lol
Sounded like cannon going off HA HA HA
And 3 shortend piston rods 1 looked like S lol
good video Brian
Lol
GR8 story ha
I may be wrong, but i think i would want a quick opening rate, and hold it near max lift as long as possible, start it closing fast but use an inverse area near closing to set the valve on the seat more gently ?
So you could make a cam that uses 1.8 rockers to make up for a less intense cam? Does that make it so you can a high reving engine?
Area under the curve. The better the head fills the cylinder the less intense the lobe has to be. That is why an ls doesn't need a big or aggressive in. lobe. Here is my question,why do they like so much overlap?
I've asked this question from folks many many times. Researched it and still don't have a defined answer. But, from everything that I've read and listened to, I believe it has to do with the intake to exhaust ration. This is not been confirmed by anyone to me. And I dang sure ain't an expert. But, I do try to relate it to what has been proven many times with say a SBC or SBF. The LS intake port is just that good. But then, the swirl variable comes in, and the port orientation and angle come in, and that tends to throw of my theory. My best guess is that the exhaust just didn't get improved as much. Most folks concentrate on getting air and fuel in, and don't worry about exhaust as much. Weingartner showed that awhile back, with just doing a mild bowl blend and valve job on the exhaust. Only variable that was changed. And the engine improved. Hope this helps a little. And I hope I'm on the correct line of thought.
intensity,,,thats you in the second drawing,,,,lol,,,dude you are a good teacher A plus
are you going to do the fast acceleration and soft closing lobe designs ??
350 sounds like a lot of lift for a 210-270cam my motorhome cam is 305 lift 205-256 w/ 904 lifter hyd flat tappet not radical
Lots of improvement in cams 0-50 and 50-0 do not want to stall the flow by opening too early or too quick and want to preserve velocity during close to squeeze the most in before reversion GM spent $$$ on their Indy program on this area (and over the lobe and...) Of course opening too late or too slow you can never catch up So at what lift do we really want the valve to be out of the way??? do i need to point out that with an inverse flank roller you can get more intensity also with a FT cam (I liked the way you picked timing in the other video LCA sucks it is what it is) Take the lash up before cracking the valve, We played with ramp height with the 413 -426 max wedge ( heavy valves, 60's springs. B4 Ti retainers) Mopar used long ramps especially the close and really extra long on the exhaust to be quiet as cam wore and to be quiet (and to dilute the intake charge for smog) Lots of compromises I did intensity at the valve not the cam There was 25 hp between the Comp and Lunati 268 cams, both by UDHarold and the Lunati was quieter good explanation
Does a larger lifter wheel diameter make the more intense lobes more or less harsh?
@@Mpcoluv great question they really do help with the load that supplied to the lifter wheel or bottom I helped you spread it out and disperse it they also grow the camshaft a little larger
@@SalterRacingEngines So it smooths out the bottom end of the valvetrain a little but does nothing for the rocker, spring and valve end of things...
awesome! but how we find out what is more or less intense for given valve train ?
0:23 I'm guessing ramp rate, lift, and overlap...we shall see
“Now, Wellll Illl jussst LEAVE IT @ THAT” lol. 😂
Nice video!
Your name is more valuable than gold.
BTW I would think an electric solenoid is going to be the way to go for an actuator. Fluids, are just too slow. Electrons are fast.
Just curious, do you ever enlarge the cam bore to install a cam with a larger base circle to help control the valve train?
Absolutely that's one of the very best things you can do
Intensity = higher velocity and acceleration at the valve from steeper ramps. Correct ?
@LEETIGER-v8y yes ultimately it starts at the lifter and ends up at the valve
Great video, what determines the amount of lash , say a SBC with a solid roller? is it the intensity of the lobe that determines it???
I am interested on info on the differences between cams for
N/A and turbo and supercharged engines. That would be a cool camshaft challenge where y all would submit one cam for each package. A lot of work for the test however.
Can you find the power band by the Duration @ 50 just say 269 intake 271 exhaust Solid roller 630 lift are the RPM range
Well for one thing that cam will definitely rev to a high RPM but if you have a lazy or low intense lobe it will have a completely different power band than one that has a very high intense lobe
@SalterRacingEngines Thanks I had one custom ground for a turbo build I think it's closer to a hydraulic roller lobe trying to figure out what would be a good starting point with the torque converter
For general description on street pump gas engines that run power brakes power steering..etc... I wonder if its okay to say hey that cam would be too radical and not make enough vacuum and needs a more conservative profile??
@@Christopher-re2hl of course and that should be stated when buying a camshaft
Area under the curve !!!
When you grind a cam. Do you use the factory firing order. Or use 15736842
@@rogerpatton-zr7qd it depends on the engine type
great schooling
Holy shit your right the valve has to disappear! You might of just made me an extremely wealthy man I got to get to drawing or doing some cad work.
In its simplest distillation, intensity is an engineering choice: longevity or power? Get greedy with intensity, and a cam is gone as fast as the tape recording that opened every Mission Impossible show plot. All cams fail at some point, and caught in the earliest stages of failure, its the flank that typically goes first - where the accelleration of valvetrain forces peak. What works in a 1/4 mile doesn't have a prayer at Le Mans. Choose wisely...
How intense is a "3/4 race" cam?😁
So you are a picso of engine knowledge maybe not art. Just the way it should be. Thanks for sharing your knowledge
Mr salter id most def really like to some how “briefly” chat with you as I’m in the process of coming up with 2025 asphalt circle track Engine combo have been using 602 crate engine and would like to have a bit better more “racey” type of engine for next season. What is your email to be able to reach out to ya and 🤞🏻 be able to get in touch with ya as I just know you’ll come up with a legit combo.. Thanks in advance Mr Salter. 👍🏻
First! 🏁
Think I would rather mock my junk up and use a degree wheel.
"a guy with a timing chain and a lapua " is not a sentence i thought id ever hear .
@@jeremymyers5643 yeah man it's a crazy inside joke
@@SalterRacingEngines I know what a timing chain is, and I shoot Lapua brass in my rifles, but I don't know what your joke would be.😁
What happenef to you,we jusy got started.
What do you mean what happened to me
@SalterRacingEngines I have not seen any videos lately.
@davidreed6070 yeah I know buddy I'm finally in my shop and that's what I've been working on relentlessly
I'm going to make one the next day or so
@SalterRacingEngines that is a good feeling, isnt it. When you get everything set up like you want it.
TRUMP USA 🇺🇸 MAGA 2024 . GO OUT AND VITE . WE GOT TO MAKE IT TO BIG TO RIG