Better Retro PC Audio With External Mixer
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- Опубликовано: 6 июн 2024
- Use an external mixer to improve the audio with your retro PC! In the video I show my two mixers, how everything is connected and how to use the mixer when playing DOS games.
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Funny story: back in the early 2000s when I lived in an apartment, my neighbor was huge into using a sound receiver and large speakers with his PC. He had the cops called on him by neighbors so many times for having his sound volume up so high. Imagine hearing someone playing the Wing Commander series for hours almost every day. For a time I didn’t even want to play any Wing Commander game because I was so sick of hearing it lol.
I've had a few noise disturbances but never about video games 😂
Having sound complaints because of Wing Commander is one of the coolest things I've ever heard.
I'm an American audio engineer and this was fun ^.^ I love hearing someone call 1/4" terminations 6.3mm. It's funny because 1/8" is usually labeled "1/8" - 3.5mm", but I never hear the big TS/TRS patch plugs commonly for instruments called anything other than "quarter inch".
Also, fwiw, I use professional audio interfaces on my computers and audio routing & levels tends to be the first thing I explore when I get a new game. Just considering how far you've already gone, you might have some pro audio tendencies - careful, it's one of the more expensive hobbies that very few people in this world will find relatable or even be that impressed by (unless you're a famous DJ) 😅
Yes metric vs imperial never gets old 😊
They're always called 6.3 mm here. I actually never knew they're 1/4".
@phoneNo one gets it. Some Djs don't even get it. I try to explain things to people like how a crossover works or how to wire in serial or parallel, impedance and why their receiver or amp can't be pushed too far due to poor THD. It makes me feel alone lol.
@@RevDrCCoonansr most DJs don't get it, just saying the few that do are the only ones who get any credit for their knowledge ;)
The rear output is going to be the better option due to the fact that it is, at least, closer to line-level, whereas the front output is amplified for headphones. You can use the front port with caution (some bigger audio engineers somewhere will cry about not using an appropriate level-reducing cable and/or DI, but not me), but be aware of the potential to overdrive and clip the signal.
Yup.
I'd make sure the cable also gets an RF filter before the output. You can get them in a clamp package making them easy to add after the fact. Make sure the cable makes at a loop around it.
I’m not much of an audiophile, so plugging in headphones directly to the PC or throwing up a pair of old school speakers works fine for me.
Yea it's a very niche topic 😂
Be careful though. I find even a cheap pair of ATH-M50s sound like trash driven directly from most sound cards. The amp on my mic sounds far better.
@@IntegerOfDoomYes, even when sound cards had headphone amps, they're very small. They're not really designed for anything more than some cheapo plastic headphones, and are easily overwhelmed. Bass sounds require the most energy, so usually you end up with tinny and distorted sound.
Decent computer speakers are a better idea on the cheap, since they take care of their own amplification. Just use the line out, rather than any speaker out option you might have.
I missed Philday last week, Welcome Back!
The first time I hooked up a mixer to a computer, it was to balance the audio between a mobile device playing music and the sounds from a work machine.
It was a simple mixer: 6 inputs, 1 output, all 6.3mm stereo jacks and knobs.
I ended up picking up a second mixer of the same type to use on the retro bench. Because "convoluted" is how I roll sometimes, I "mixed" an internal MIDI card (Yamaha SW60XG) with the soundcard and an external MIDI device so that I could toggle between GM and XG MIDI without depending on game settings. That mixer ran into the first mixer on my desk, which ran into a 1 input, 4 output headphone amp. This let me guide sound to any or all of the speakers in the room, a recording device for catpures and/or headphones.
Spaghetti of wires, but it works.
Thank you for posting this idea! I think it is fantastic.
Also is great for balancing levels from parallel port Ad-lib devices.
If you're going to roll convoluted on a regular basis, it might be a good idea to learn to spell it. 😉
@@SpeccyMan Hah, good call. Fixed. 🤦♂️
Wow, what a video. You have me wondering about looking at how a stereo receiver would affect PC sound. I had a friend that had a Harman Kardon receiver and AM stations sounded as good as FM stations. I was amazed.
I got my mixer like two years ago after getting annoyed with unreliable software mixers. I use a 5 channel mixer (Loop Mixer from Marker hart) and build PC speaker connector to 3.5 mm jack and CD-ROM audio connector to 3.5 mm jack cables as I had lots of problems with very quiet CD-Audio. The hardware mixer setup makes changing volume to perfect levels far easier. Only the shielding of the cables isn't great, but only really noticeable at higher volume levels.
So right now my mixer has the Orpheus II, Tandy Nano, CD-Audio, PC Speaker and 4 PCs via KVM Switch that also switches audio hooked up to it. Next will be the PicoGUS that I will have to hook up to it, once it arrives.
Nice!
I bought my first 10 channel mixer in 2005 after I built my first DAW computer. I definitely remember it being vital part of my setup for routing all my computer audio. I just use a fancier sound card now but I still pull it out for projects regularly!
Title should be Better retro PC audio with Phil's Computer Lab!
Man you really surprised me with this video and I love it. Just want to get a used mixer from Facebook and play a little bit to enjoy all your tips and suggestions! Im impressed with your content, thanks Phil!
That's great to hear, thank you 😊
God damn it, I just sold my Behringer audio mixer 😂
I have a similar setup, but replaced the regular SoundCanvas with a SC-155 which also let's me mix the MIDI channels. I can for example increase the volume of the drums, or mute one of the instruments I don't like.
Nice!
don't forget to re-cap your sound cards by this point. A lot of the cards out there are pushing 30 or more years old, and the caps Creative and others used were not the best of the best. Wincap, G-Luxon and the like are brands I've seen on Creative cards, whoever they could get for the lowest bidder that month. replacing all the power filter caps with a proper switching cap and replacing the caps in the audio path with even the lowest end audio-grade nichicon or what-have-you (105C of course) will do you fathoms better in terms of audio quality. the SB16s usually have two wrong values by their TEA2025B amp for instance, they were 47uF but should be 100uF, and some, where space is available, can be upgraded from 470 to 1000uF on the output filter capacitors to increase the bass response on the low end for a satisfying thump. 100% recommend doing this and recapping your sound cards as they're getting rather expensive to replace, in the event a cap shorts out from age and whoops, that's $100 down the drain.
This is fascinating and another reason why I want to learn how to repair and maintain old parts! Thank you for the tips!
Not for Retro but I do have Sound Blaster Audigy Fx in my pc ( got it for my win 7 build) and I use the line in to route the audio from my consoles (ps4 and xbsx from the monitor's audio out). The interference noise from the graphics card is pretty strong, like I can tweak it internally via the software and reduce the noise a bit but I can't eliminate it completely. I am thinking of adding an external mixer or card for that clean sound for the consoles.
It's not that bad to be honest, more annoying.
Great idea, Phil! I think I'm going to invest in a small mixer and give this a try myself.
That sort of thing (A mixer that splits volume between the game sounds and music) is something I would like to exist for some of the Windows games, some games only has only volume bar and when you want to silence the music from the game then you have a problem.
But this is something I'd imagine to play around for hours. It's much easier to setup these volumes for music and sounds on the go, (When one thing louder than the other.) instead of browsing through menu or exiting to DOS/Windows 9x and running the SETUP.EXE file.
Loving the tips you gave in this video as well. Appreciate it.
It's all peaches Phil :D But if it doesn't spit, pop and hiss - it's not retro :D As a teenager, I used to have a horrible cheap ISA sound card. I was given that junk as a Christmas present and I loved it. It was a "Pine" brand I believe, or some other kind of very low-end knockoff. Half of the time it played all the emulated OPL midi completely out of tune just by itself. Restart was required to get rid of it. But, hell, I was so happy to have it. Sound Blaster was expensive to a point of unreachable in my country back then. But my absolutely first "sound card" was a hand made Covox connected to a mono speaker of my mother's kitchen FM radio :D What a time! So, yeah, let it hiss :D
Yes you are right 👍
Thanks Phil, another useful video. A mixer is on the list, but I had no idea what to look for. Having seen this I think a version of your Behringer with more channels (two sound cards + MIDI modules) will suit me well!
Also, it seems the latest mixers now have modern features like USB and Bluetooth, so that's awesome.
Hi Phil, first of all, as always, congrats with your super educational retro channel! I have a question regarding the connection between the AudioCD cable and the bracket in the back of the PC? Can you go a little more into detail about that? How did you solder that and what components did you buy and where?
Mixers can indeed be a lifesaver for retro setups. Although they can become an incredibly complicated spaghetti mess of cables as your setup grows… I started with single 4 channel 3.5mm mixer, but today I have added two more to my setup (one 6 channel 6.35mm and one 4 channel RCA) to be able to share a MIDI mountain (MU80, SC55 and MT32) between two PCs, as well as to connect my four retro machines’ Sound Blasters to the same speakers set.
Miles of cables and a lot of work... But it was worth it! :)
Yes cable spaghetti 😁
My setup is very similar. MU80, SC-88, MT-32, NS5R and four computers.
Happy Friday Phil!
Yea! Weekend time 😁
If your motherboard or sound card has an SPDIF input header you can use that for CD audio and there'll be zero noise. Of course then you need an optical drive that has a digital output header. I've been using a mixer next to my PC since the late '90s (presently a Yamaha MG102c) but I like to minimize the amount of cables as much as I can. Cheap cables can pick up interference too.
I use a Toppng D70 Pro Octo, amazing sound
nice high end vid! This is the low-budget thing I'm using with my vintage PC:
4in 1out passive mixer (found on amazon)
in1 = 3.5 audio out from my WeeCee or from my 486DX2/66
in2 = output converted to 3.5 from a Roland MT-32
in3 = output converted to 3.5 from a Roland SC-88ST
in4 = output converted to 3.5 from a Kawai GX-1
out1 = sent to a set of Roland MA-8 speakers, or to the line-in of a SB Audigy FX 5.1 my modern PC for capturing
gotta maybe cable managed away the audio cables away from the power cables to avoid this weird interference that I pick up sometimes
I've been needing to manage my midi mountain, sc-55, mt-32, and gmega. Mixer like that is probably part of the solution.
That is awesome.
The best sound i had.
Is the Nvidia audio chip on the nforce serie.
Dolby Digital live. .
Combine with a Yamaha amp with spdif connection.
For the rest i use jama concert serie speakers in that time.
Now today i use a.
Soundblaster usb audio with a JBL 104 Reference Monitors,.
And the software i use this Equalizer APO
From Peter’s Equalizer API Configuration Extension.
The apo works on all audio cards
Good case. I have the same one for one of my retro PCs 👍🏻
Good choice!
I always wonder what kind of speakers most people use, when they say "you can't hear it on speakers, but definitely on headphones". In my experience, speakers generally are better than headphones, and that's with me using Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro studio headphones.
I totally agree that using an external mixer can be a great idea. The onboard mixing on most sound cards leave a lot to be desired. :)
I don't know what you're using to drive those headphones, or whether you have the 80 or 250 ohm variant, but either way they really need a good amp to perform at their best, more so than many other headphones.
I do agree with your point though, maybe people are comparing to some random computer speakers? Most people probably get headphones rather than investing in quality speakers, plus speakers are just trickier to set up well.
I think background noise is what's being referred to, even if people don't realize that's what they're identifying. It's much more practical to isolate sound with headphones than it is to dampen a room.
I use a pair of Genelec 8050As as well as some DT770s
It's probably not the speakers, but the spaces those speakers are in. Sound travels a lot differently in an open area as well. Minor details can quickly be overshadowed by low frequencies.
Once you start using external MIDI modules with your retro PC gaming, a standalone mixer is essential. I use in a rack mount mixer with sixteen (eight stereo) input channels.
Nice!
I have old Edirol speakers with 4 inputs, 2 digital, 2 analog, I can mix between the eMac and the MT-32. The smaller mixer is enough, you could use the inputs of the SoundCanvas for the MT-32.
On the last mixer, I miss the aux return input. If you have many sources, you may want a master compressor before routing to your speakers.
I know someone who uses a similar arrangement (tho most of the mixer functions are on the specialty sound card) for mixing and editing live shows he records for local bar bands. Same basic principles.
Nice!
In theory one could patch the output from the PC speaker through that mono input. Great for older games and those that have Adlib music and PC speaker sound effects. I find the PC speaker to be WAY over-driven on many machines so the lack of any built-in volume adjustment can be frustrating. Sure a lot of cards have the PC speaker pass-through, but a lot of them don't...and even if they it's another vector for introducing noise.
The lack of volume control on PC beepers has been the bane of my existence. Hooking the motherboard header up to a mini amp didn't work and I'm too electrically dumb to figure out how to get the signal down to proper filtered line levels.
@@IntegerOfDoom There is a design for a rudimentary patch cable at the back of the manual for Mean Streets by Access software (PC version). The diagram shows a 4.7uf cap on the signal line...which is likely the element missing to get a stable / level signal for an external amplifier.
I would provide a direct link but I know YT doesn't like such things, but it's out there...
Yes you definitely need a circuit. Another option is using your sound card, many have a header for connecting the PC speaker.
Back in 1992, my Tv was connected to my sound system.
When they saw this, many of my friends wanted to do the same :)
Since the first time I saw you using a mixer I wanted to give it a shot, I first didn't want to expent to much and I got a no name one, it sounded horrible, then I bumped into a review of the Terratec Phase 88 Rack and was in love, 8 mono In/out, it can be used as a FireWire multichannel sound card under Windows XP and 7 or as a standalone mixer if you turn it on while disconnected from the FW port. It's overkill for my expertise level but it was as cheap as some standalone 2 channel mixers.
Someday I will have it connected permanently to all my gear... Yep someday. 😅
Haha yes someday I know that feeling 😁
Hey Phil, you have that wireless lapel mic but there's still a pretty harsh room-tone to your audio, I wonder why that is because it feels like it should be better with a mic on your lapel like that
Been using a HD receiver for all of my computer, retro and otherwise, sound needs for a while now. Looking at getting a mixer at some point, too. Definitely a good way to enjoy just about anything! And when I'm done with work or gaming, I can tune in to local radio to relax.
I'm not the biggest audiophile so a setup like this is a bit much for me, but I do enjoy a good pair of earbuds, or headphones, so give me a good pair of either, and a decent quality headphone dac, and I'm good to go.
I use a Roland MX-5 in my setup, it's got 4 stereo channels each with balance, gain, and a fader. It is even in the same beige as my CM-64! I highly suspect they made it targeting the computer market as it is the perfect thing their stereo midi modules + computer audio + cd etc. It is old and not the quietest audio device but still much better than the soundcard mixer and the functionality makes up for it. I like having both my SC-88 Pro and CM-64 hooked up to it and being able to switch between them easily to compare the very different MIDI synthesis.
Do you ever have issues with buzzing from ground loops or whatever? When I hook the audio up to my modern PC for capture it get pretty bad.
You can buy a ground loop remover for that!
I've used a Mixer in my setup for quite some time, but something went horribly wrong with my ESS Audiodrive 1696 cards. I didn't know to jumper them to turn off the amp and the PC kept changing the sound to WIDE OPEN. Doom blew the card up with maxed out audio and they have never worked again. Still not 100% sure what happened.
I think using the spdif connector on the optical drive to the sound card would be a better connection than going through the cdrom amplifier
At least with DOS this isn't so straight forward but yes, all digital, you're right, it will give you the cleanest signal. I did a video in that actually, optical out into a DAC for best audio.
Cool
Good
Hi Phil- I love that PC case- what model is it?
Gigabyte but don't remember the model number. I used to have 3 of these cases...
Please make a video on how to use USB devices, like a mouse in MS-DOS. Thanks
I think the best way is with a PS/2 compatible mouse with an adapter.
Most machines have a BIOE option for keyboard and mouse USB support.
I'd settle for a Roland MT 32 and Soundacanvus 55 for my DosBox setup
Hooking my DOS machine up to a full size Yamaha keyboard was fun.
So... does the 2-track input not expect line level inputs then? Because the cdrom headphone output doesn't produce line level output of course.
I guess there is some flexibility, it's analogue after all.
Hi Phil I was wondering about your test bench you use been trying to find one like the one you have used in your videos would it be possible to post a link to it please TY.
Search for High Speed PC
Thank you this never came up on when I was searching for test beds 😊❤
@@mathewcruce517 Yea the name isn't what you'd expect 😅
I would like to know how to route the PC speaker into the mixer. When I'm up playing DOS games late at night, the PC speaker wakes up the whole house. It would be fantastic to be able to turn it down and also listen through headphones.
Goes into the PC SPK connector of your Sound Blaster!
What an awesome looking retro case. It's not ancient, it's newer but it's still awesome.
Gigabyte branded.
@@philscomputerlabI noticed. IT looks good. Is the board inside Gigabyte?
@@RevDrCCoonansr Board is from DFI I believe. I did a video showcasing this computer a while ago. The thumbnail is me holding the case 😊
There was a short time when I played Need for Speed - Hot Pursuit 2 on PC and had my own music play in WinAmpl. I'm fond of that time of my life even though I was going through some tough times. Not long ago I tried to recreate that feeling when I play that game with my music but this time on console. I bought a heavy-ass mixer that has 4 inputs and 2 neat little VU meters which are lit by incandescent bulbs :) I kinda like it but wires were running everywhere and the audio was noisy. I think I need to sell it and get something similar that you showed us here (the smaller one).
Am I the only black person who loves retro computing.
Welcome and it doesn't matter
Welcome, and no one cares as long as you're a decent person.
structural racism is probably to blame for the seemingly few into retro computing. Your perspective is definitely appreciated!
@@colinstu No such thing. Stop acting weird and let people enjoy things.
Well looks like youtube deleted my comment about my setup, bummer. I have much like you show here, but with three Midi modules (looking to add two more) and two computers (still looking for the third one), mixer with 8 stereo channels (all channels will be in use after I get the still missing things). The thing with Midi modules is, you need to have a midi merge connected to all computers, and then a midi thru to connect to all midi modules. This allows use of multiple computers and multiple Midi devices without needing to switch them on and off, or disconnect any cables. You just use the mixer to mute the midi modules you don't want to hear. This also allows using multiple midi modules at the same time! I for one love the sound of Master of Orion 1 with both Yamaha MU and SoundCanvas. They sound pretty different, and mixing them together brings extra depth and flavor to the otherwise pretty mild and sparse music in the game. One thing I also like is a spectrum analyzer, which will bounce big green bars of the final completed mix, and output through the analyzer goes out to the speakers. I guess what I'm saying is that one can really sink a lot of time and money into this type of setup, and I love mine.
*edit goddamn youtube why do I pay premium if not for guaranteeing I'm not a damn bot. I hope you need to use fdisk on your harddrives, people who coded this bot that flagged me damn it.
8 channels, nice!
Wait til you get to compressors and reverbs
I use a surround amplifier with good speakers for my pc's.
One of the pc's also connected digital.
My retro pc's (p1, p3, mac, x79) are connected to a mixing console from the 90's.
In my other room pc's with hdmi. Sound from hdmi monitor to amplifier and i use a kvm switch.
Most of the retro gamers don't have a external midi device.
So they just can externally mix soundblater and the cd.
I don't see the benefits of that.
Use a good amplifier with good speakers and the sound is so much better than crappy pc speakers. Also the headphone sounds better.
And if your soundcard has a digital out and amplifier a digital in it even sounds better
Thanks for the video's.
Greetings from the Netherlands.
no, I do not think, that a Mixer does make DOS SB or Midi sound better ----
this is absolute nonsense.
You mast have the best headphones in world and very strange ears.
So you do hear interference caused by digital mixer of AWE64, but you dont hear distortion caused by the cheap metallic cables transporting analogue sound to the mixer, and the distortion caused by the circuits of the mixer itself... You are the only one on planet.