Great channel here Joe... thanks for making so many quality vids available... you've got a solid offering of early 20th century Irish history, great stuff! Thanks again.
To this day, as a reader of history, that Dev got away with rejecting the democratic decision of the Irish people and government is unforgivable. His decision, his selfishness, his arrogance resulted in the killing of almost every decent Irish leader of that time - and he didn't have the decency, dignity or courage to join them in the grave. His place in our history needs to be re-explored, and exposed!
What democratic decision exactly? Lloyd George pretty much held them at gun point to sign the Treaty, threatening "immediate & terrible war" if a gerrymandered colonial statelet was not accepted. I'm no fan of De Valera, but he was right to reject it - though knowing what the prick was like, he had some alternative political motive for doing it.
Usual RTE biased report Collins did not head the delegation to London for the treaty talks, it was Arthur Griffiths. Also he was out of ammunition throughout the country, and Churchill threatened him with the worst atrocities if they didn't sign, they had no choice! Devalera knew it and sent Collins as the scapegoat. Dev was the creator of the Civil war and ultimately profitted from it!
Great post - but you overlook one aspect of the question. Without Dev we'd never have had Haughey , Bertie , Bull O Donoghue or Michael Woods. We must always strive to see thingsin the round :)
Was Sean hales not assassinated because the Free State had began executing any armed captured republicans ( not for opposing the treaty as its put) These executions included erskine Childers who was caught with a small pistol that was given to him by collins
Yes thats what I thought too - I learnt that Seán Hales was assisinated because the Anti-treaty IRA warned that members of the Dáil who voted for the Emergency Powers Resolution which granted the power to execute prisioners who were against the treaty and that he was assistanted because he voted for that bill
@@Lillyoak1 Exactly, and it is no mistake that RTE our national propaganda machine wish to downplay and airbrush the facts. History is written by the victors.
@@Lillyoak1 I missed that , I'll try and catch on the player, there are so many different perspectives to view our history and each version has its own believers so I suppose that makes it true to those people. History is a very complex web of facts and beliefs, it can not be just viewed from one mans eyes.
The euro has destroyed Ireland more than the British and the Civil war. I hate to say this but Irelands economy would have been better with a united Ireland under British rule. After the British pull out it was brother against brother. People were killed and people were suppressed. The banks were still controlled by the British. Ireland has always had to rely on the British. This post may receive negative comments, but think about Germany. Ireland could have been on their side in the 2 world war
How would joining Hitler have made things any better for us? Germany lost the war. The actual fighting and “brother v brother suppression” during the civil war in this country was only started because the free state caved to Churchill and bombarded the Anti-Treaty IRA in the four courts.
Irish people, the British treated you little better than slaves. Some very brave and committed sons and daughters of your country with nothing to gain and their lives to lose fought this incredible injustice. ( they still patronise you by the way) . The Irish people were tired of war and voted by a close margin for peace at any price. I can understand because I would have done the same because I would not have had the guts to continue to fight for my nations independence. You are descended from some incredibly brave patriotic people such as Ernie O’Malley, Liam Lynch , Tom Barry Peadar ODonell and the brave people expected in 1916 . Michael Collins was one of the greatest Irish patriots and yes out of his depth in the negotiations . The Brits convinced him that they would use overwhelming force against Ireland should the treaty not be signed. Be proud of your heritage and give the Brits two fingers unless of course you rely on British money for your livelihood . De Valera did good work when he came to power. I’ll agree that his party believed in their right to rule by the 1950s. But the Fine Gael were created from a group who were able to justify executing ( if you make the rules) (murdering if you don’t) over 70 patriot Irish nationalists.
I have no love for De Valera, but I think Collins was wrong to support the Treaty. Ulster is today still recovering from decades of sectarianism thanks to Partition. The lack of a large Protestant population also ensured Home Rule would indeed be Rome Rule, just as Unionists predicted. Swapping London for Rome hardly qualifies as "independence".
Nationalist were abandon in the north of Ireland to unionist rule without (Consent) .The treaty was a big mistake and history has proven the case .ps.Dev brought an english hangman to Ireland to hang ie..murder.former Comrades .A duscusting bastard .....ps Collins was set up ..to do the dirty deed .cost him his life like he said...
Great channel here Joe... thanks for making so many quality vids available... you've got a solid offering of early 20th century Irish history, great stuff! Thanks again.
To this day, as a reader of history, that Dev got away with rejecting the democratic decision of the Irish people and government is unforgivable. His decision, his selfishness, his arrogance resulted in the killing of almost every decent Irish leader of that time - and he didn't have the decency, dignity or courage to join them in the grave. His place in our history needs to be re-explored, and exposed!
What democratic decision exactly? Lloyd George pretty much held them at gun point to sign the Treaty, threatening "immediate & terrible war" if a gerrymandered colonial statelet was not accepted. I'm no fan of De Valera, but he was right to reject it - though knowing what the prick was like, he had some alternative political motive for doing it.
Usual RTE biased report Collins did not head the delegation to London for the treaty talks, it was Arthur Griffiths. Also he was out of ammunition throughout the country, and Churchill threatened him with the worst atrocities if they didn't sign, they had no choice! Devalera knew it and sent Collins as the scapegoat. Dev was the creator of the Civil war and ultimately profitted from it!
Collins was correct about the Treaty being a "stepping stone".
A legend he was 👍
I like people who are honest enough to call themselves what they are.
Great post - but you overlook one aspect of the question. Without Dev we'd never have had Haughey , Bertie , Bull O Donoghue or Michael Woods. We must always strive to see thingsin the round :)
mickigoe Without Dev there wouldn’t have been an Ireland, that’s just historical fact
Frad brigade
Like Dev several you name used public money for private
Hi i'm doing an assignment on how revisionism impacted our understanding of the civil war. Any suggestions?
Dear Jimmy,
American Civil War: Madness in the extreme! Apparently warfare in a human condition!
You need to repost this, there's no sound.
The title says it all.Thank God for Washington, Adams, Hamilton , Jefferson , et.al.
This video is so one-sided I can only hear it in one ear.
Get your other ear unblocked ..dude
Was Sean hales not assassinated because the Free State had began executing any armed captured republicans ( not for opposing the treaty as its put)
These executions included erskine Childers who was caught with a small pistol that was given to him by collins
Yes thats what I thought too - I learnt that Seán Hales was assisinated because the Anti-treaty IRA warned that members of the Dáil who voted for the Emergency Powers Resolution which granted the power to execute prisioners who were against the treaty and that he was assistanted because he voted for that bill
@@Lillyoak1 Exactly, and it is no mistake that RTE our national propaganda machine wish to downplay and airbrush the facts. History is written by the victors.
@@tramorester yes - did you watch the programme on RTÉ 1 last night about the war of independence by Michael Portillo? I thought it was good
@@Lillyoak1 I missed that , I'll try and catch on the player, there are so many different perspectives to view our history and each version has its own believers so I suppose that makes it true to those people. History is a very complex web of facts and beliefs, it can not be just viewed from one mans eyes.
@@tramorester there will also be a second part to it next Wednesday
only left sound is working
The euro has destroyed Ireland more than the British and the Civil war. I hate to say this but Irelands economy would have been better with a united Ireland under British rule. After the British pull out it was brother against brother. People were killed and people were suppressed. The banks were still controlled by the British. Ireland has always had to rely on the British. This post may receive negative comments, but think about Germany. Ireland could have been on their side in the 2 world war
Why would Ireland have joined with another empire like Nazi germany
How would joining Hitler have made things any better for us? Germany lost the war. The actual fighting and “brother v brother suppression” during the civil war in this country was only started because the free state caved to Churchill and bombarded the Anti-Treaty IRA in the four courts.
Collins was dead 2 months before Sean heales and Richard barret
The precursor to Fianna Fail standing on high moral ground .. God almighty !!
Monarchy, especially the English, has been a root cause of millions of deaths, misery and brutality.
Irish people, the British treated you little better than slaves. Some very brave and committed sons and daughters of your country with nothing to gain and their lives to lose fought this incredible injustice. ( they still patronise you by the way) . The Irish people were tired of war and voted by a close margin for peace at any price. I can understand because I would have done the same because I would not have had the guts to continue to fight for my nations independence. You are descended from some incredibly brave patriotic people such as Ernie O’Malley, Liam Lynch , Tom Barry Peadar ODonell and the brave people expected in 1916 . Michael Collins was one of the greatest Irish patriots and yes out of his depth in the negotiations . The Brits convinced him that they would use overwhelming force against Ireland should the treaty not be signed.
Be proud of your heritage and give the Brits two fingers unless of course you rely on British money for your livelihood .
De Valera did good work when he came to power. I’ll agree that his party believed in their right to rule by the 1950s. But the Fine Gael were created from a group who were able to justify executing ( if you make the rules) (murdering if you don’t) over 70 patriot Irish nationalists.
What about the American civil war?
I have no love for De Valera, but I think Collins was wrong to support the Treaty. Ulster is today still recovering from decades of sectarianism thanks to Partition. The lack of a large Protestant population also ensured Home Rule would indeed be Rome Rule, just as Unionists predicted. Swapping London for Rome hardly qualifies as "independence".
Nationalist were abandon in the north of Ireland to unionist rule without (Consent) .The treaty was a big mistake and history has proven the case .ps.Dev brought an english hangman to Ireland to hang ie..murder.former Comrades .A duscusting bastard .....ps Collins was set up ..to do the dirty deed .cost him his life like he said...
Michael Laffan needs to be punched
This seems to have a very pro-Treaty stance. It is not objective at all.
Come out he English Huns come out and fight wit out your guns!!!!