Clearly the previous comments miss the mark. Kurtz's work is insightful, and full of erudition. He IS AA's historian. Perhaps the commenters dislike AA.
And perhaps they have reason to. So how do the previous comments 'miss the mark'? (They have obviously been deleted, so I wasn't able to see them.) Perhaps those people feel your comments miss the mark. Kurtz' history is blatantly hagiographic, as it doesn't mention any of the well-documented controversies with AA, especially as regards Wilson's antics.
The guy's naught but a hagiographer for AA. So you think they might dislike AA? Well, no shit, Sherlock! All AA does, is try to cover up or gloss over, all of the more sordid aspects of its and Wilson's histories. But if you posit this to any AA acolyte, all they'll do is vehemently deny it and get quite vitriolic. When this happens, I calmly tell them that their doctrine seemingly forbids them acting so. Then they really get pissed off. Your program is a paradox, in that its literature is so turgidly written, but yet its most attractive to only the anti-intellectual, feeble-minded lower classes. If you care to debate this, I don't mind. But take heed, as I only do this to get you lot to post shit that others can read and see as idiotic.
I thoroughly enjoy Ernie. The only place my experience differs is alcoholics having to go to Meetings. My personal experience is that I went in and out of alcoholic anonymous several times and when I finally didget sober I have Never Ever had to go to an alcoholic anonymous meeting. Because I always wanted to go to alcoholics anonymous meeting,. With a little over 20 years of sobriety meetings, have become a hobby. With the meeting guide app I catch meetings all over for the sheer pleasure. Have a peaceful 👼 and content day ☺️
@@blancemoore Yes it was because they were human with clay feet Just as I have even after all these years I still full short As it says in the 12x12 the only step I’ve done to perfection is step 1
The ideas and principles in AA work. People who can't or won't adhere to such principles, they fail to recover. Rabies medicine works for those who: 1) have rabies 2) want to get help 3) adhere to the therapy for that specific disease The same is true for alcoholism and AA. If you have the disease of alcoholism, but you don't want to get help, or you can't or won't adhere to the therapy appropriate for such disease, you will die from it. That doesn't mean AA principles don't work. There's millions of individuals around the world, like me, who are living proof that the AA program works for what it is intended.
Pure ignorance is what you both speak of. There are reasons why it's anonymous. I am a member. Trust me, it works. If you work it the right way. Stop listening to false rumors. If you had all the facts and information you'd understand. It's way too much to write on here. I am a member. I am sober and living a life that is filled with more peace of mind than I have ever had before. There is a saying we have, and it is " you don't know what you don't know until you know it." Since you both don't know a lot about this program. You don't know that you don't know what you're talking about.
@@FAITHFULANDPROUD2GOD Maybe you would be credible if you didn't say the same things and same cliches and same ideas as every other AA member. Have an independent thought and independent sentence strung together and then maybe skeptics might listen.
@@jasonmanning4288 Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. For those that are fearless and thorough from the very start the success rate is 97.23%. We leave a bit of wiggle room because there are those who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. They are not at fault, they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty.
Excuse me, but nobody told me go to AA. I knew Id a drink problem. I rang GSO and got the address znd time of a meeting. I arrived and half way thru hour, i ssid i feel rescued. Unfortunately i relapsed 3 weeks later and struggled many years to get just 2 years sober.
Because you didn't work the steps. Meetings are not enough. They are just the fellowship. The program is the steps. The only way to become and stay sober is through the steps. To continue to do steps 10 through 12 daily. How you do the steps is by having a sponsor who has been through the steps and is not only knowledgeable on the big book but is living it.
I've always been at odds with this 'recovery' bullshit concept (I know the real reason for its existence, is just as a gimmick to make money). I was a heavy beer drinker, for 25 years, then just quit, cold turkey, over a decade, ago. I neither went to AA, nor made application to any other 'aid,' and never had any problem. When this first became known, people would ask me how my recovery was going. I'd ask them, 'from what.' They would then say my alcoholism. I'd tell them I no longer drank, so what was there to recover from, or still qualify me as an alcoholic? Life is life, so you just deal with whatever shit is there. I think most people who describe themselves as being 'in recovery,' merely use it as an affectation, with which to elicit sympathy and attention. The couple times I escorted some female friends to their first AA meetings (they were wary of going alone), all I saw was a milieu of mostly decrepit looking people, most of whom were demonstrably fucked in the head.
All good - keeping in mind there are problem drinkers and heavy drinkers,… and then there are “real” alcoholics - defined as a medical and psychiatric disorder (see the DSM). AA was designed to provide mainly a Spiritual solution for alcoholics, not the other drinkers (maybe like you were). Unfortunately those idiots that give you crap don’t know the difference.
You sound silky. You obviously know nothing about AA. It's all free for one. So how it's about making money is so far from the truth. If you had any knowledge on the Big Book, you would know that you are what is called a " hard drinker." You are someone who does not suffer from the spirit malady. So yes, you were able to do it on your own. Ppl like myself are not. Please stop going around saying what you are saying. It is very dangerous to ppl like myself who don't have the knowledge of the disease. Which in turn can be fatal for them. It's great that you were not someone who suffers from the malady. Be grateful for that. But don't knock ppl who were and are not so fortunate.
Alcoholics anonymous is for alcoholics, you where just a heavy beer drinker, you don't qualify, I've never even drank a pint of beer in my 38 years of alcoholism, beer is for social drinking, also we real alcoholics suffer from a spiritual malady and until that is cleared up we just are angry dry drunks and will drink again,
@@mitchiarikov2614Why is it, that the vast majority of you lot have to respond in such a formulaic, patronizing manner ('I hope you find some peace in your heart)? It seems merely a clear case of psychological projection, upon your part, in that you speak to others as you know you should really be spoken to yourselves. You are seemingly the ones in need of heeding your own vapid platitudes. Ah well, AA has always mostly attracted the feebler minded, so this is no surprise. Live on in your delusion. If it keeps you off the drink, I suppose it has that value, anyway.
Alanon old timer, here... ...gr8 overview... thanks Ernie...
Clearly the previous comments miss the mark. Kurtz's work is insightful, and full of erudition. He IS AA's historian. Perhaps the commenters dislike AA.
And perhaps they have reason to. So how do the previous comments 'miss the mark'? (They have obviously been deleted, so I wasn't able to see them.) Perhaps those people feel your comments miss the mark. Kurtz' history is blatantly hagiographic, as it doesn't mention any of the well-documented controversies with AA, especially as regards Wilson's antics.
His book Spirituality of Imperfection mentions Bill’s Clay Feet
The guy's naught but a hagiographer for AA. So you think they might dislike AA? Well, no shit, Sherlock! All AA does, is try to cover up or gloss over, all of the more sordid aspects of its and Wilson's histories. But if you posit this to any AA acolyte, all they'll do is vehemently deny it and get quite vitriolic. When this happens, I calmly tell them that their doctrine seemingly forbids them acting so. Then they really get pissed off. Your program is a paradox, in that its literature is so turgidly written, but yet its most attractive to only the anti-intellectual, feeble-minded lower classes. If you care to debate this, I don't mind. But take heed, as I only do this to get you lot to post shit that others can read and see as idiotic.
I thoroughly enjoy Ernie. The only place my experience differs is alcoholics having to go to Meetings.
My personal experience is that I went in and out of alcoholic anonymous several times and when I finally didget sober I have Never Ever had to go to an alcoholic anonymous meeting. Because I always wanted to go to alcoholics anonymous meeting,. With a little over 20 years of sobriety meetings, have become a hobby. With the meeting guide app I catch meetings all over for the sheer pleasure. Have a peaceful 👼 and content day ☺️
Agree with this so much, 40 years here
56 years sober only thing I’ve found wrong with AA is there’s Humans in it
The Humans fail not the program
56 yearz helps understand we should have been taught on basic school lau tai chi
Question is: Would you have gotten it without those same humans?
@@blancemoore Yes it was because they were human with clay feet
Just as I have even after all these years I still full short
As it says in the 12x12 the only step I’ve done to perfection is step 1
Kurtz started me on an inward path on the history of recovery;can't say enough about his protégé Bill White either.
I've been reading this guy for twenty years....He is a treasure.
He purposely omits all the sordid shit.
Wow! What you called Bill Wilsons negative traits made me like him!!
Amazing mind and the best of humanity
Great book. Seems like a great guy, too. Thanks for posting.
Marvelous!
Great man but sadly AA doesn’t work, for the majority, the numbers reflect this. Thankfully there’s so many other options now.
The ideas and principles in AA work.
People who can't or won't adhere to such principles, they fail to recover.
Rabies medicine works for those who:
1) have rabies
2) want to get help
3) adhere to the therapy for that specific disease
The same is true for alcoholism and AA. If you have the disease of alcoholism, but you don't want to get help, or you can't or won't adhere to the therapy appropriate for such disease, you will die from it. That doesn't mean AA principles don't work.
There's millions of individuals around the world, like me, who are living proof that the AA program works for what it is intended.
What are they and their success rates, thats information a lot of people need to know. No reasin to keep it a secret.
Pure ignorance is what you both speak of. There are reasons why it's anonymous. I am a member. Trust me, it works. If you work it the right way. Stop listening to false rumors. If you had all the facts and information you'd understand. It's way too much to write on here. I am a member. I am sober and living a life that is filled with more peace of mind than I have ever had before. There is a saying we have, and it is " you don't know what you don't know until you know it." Since you both don't know a lot about this program. You don't know that you don't know what you're talking about.
@@FAITHFULANDPROUD2GOD Maybe you would be credible if you didn't say the same things and same cliches and same ideas as every other AA member. Have an independent thought and independent sentence strung together and then maybe skeptics might listen.
@@jasonmanning4288 Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path.
For those that are fearless and thorough from the very start the success rate is 97.23%. We leave a bit of wiggle room because there are those who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. They are not at fault, they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty.
Great insight!
His first sentence says it all.
I am studying the Oxford Group. So....did he just say the Oxford Group influence is ficticious?
Excuse me, but nobody told me go to AA. I knew Id a drink problem. I rang GSO and got the address znd time of a meeting. I arrived and half way thru hour, i ssid i feel rescued. Unfortunately i relapsed 3 weeks later and struggled many years to get just 2 years sober.
Because you didn't work the steps. Meetings are not enough. They are just the fellowship. The program is the steps. The only way to become and stay sober is through the steps. To continue to do steps 10 through 12 daily. How you do the steps is by having a sponsor who has been through the steps and is not only knowledgeable on the big book but is living it.
What do they say in AA about coincidences?
there's no such thing
Its a Godincidence
Just that there is no such thing
Much BS.
It's the Higher Power (God for some) working in your life. Pay attention.
Marty Mann relapsed later as did Ebby and im not sure what happened Roland Hazard who went to see Carl Jung.
Someone get this guy a drink of water.
I've always been at odds with this 'recovery' bullshit concept (I know the real reason for its existence, is just as a gimmick to make money). I was a heavy beer drinker, for 25 years, then just quit, cold turkey, over a decade, ago. I neither went to AA, nor made application to any other 'aid,' and never had any problem. When this first became known, people would ask me how my recovery was going. I'd ask them, 'from what.' They would then say my alcoholism. I'd tell them I no longer drank, so what was there to recover from, or still qualify me as an alcoholic? Life is life, so you just deal with whatever shit is there. I think most people who describe themselves as being 'in recovery,' merely use it as an affectation, with which to elicit sympathy and attention. The couple times I escorted some female friends to their first AA meetings (they were wary of going alone), all I saw was a milieu of mostly decrepit looking people, most of whom were demonstrably fucked in the head.
All good - keeping in mind there are problem drinkers and heavy drinkers,… and then there are “real” alcoholics - defined as a medical and psychiatric disorder (see the DSM). AA was designed to provide mainly a Spiritual solution for alcoholics, not the other drinkers (maybe like you were). Unfortunately those idiots that give you crap don’t know the difference.
You sound silky. You obviously know nothing about AA. It's all free for one. So how it's about making money is so far from the truth. If you had any knowledge on the Big Book, you would know that you are what is called a " hard drinker." You are someone who does not suffer from the spirit malady. So yes, you were able to do it on your own. Ppl like myself are not. Please stop going around saying what you are saying. It is very dangerous to ppl like myself who don't have the knowledge of the disease. Which in turn can be fatal for them. It's great that you were not someone who suffers from the malady. Be grateful for that. But don't knock ppl who were and are not so fortunate.
Alcoholics anonymous is for alcoholics, you where just a heavy beer drinker, you don't qualify, I've never even drank a pint of beer in my 38 years of alcoholism, beer is for social drinking, also we real alcoholics suffer from a spiritual malady and until that is cleared up we just are angry dry drunks and will drink again,
God bless you brother. I hope you find some peace in your heart
@@mitchiarikov2614Why is it, that the vast majority of you lot have to respond in such a formulaic, patronizing manner ('I hope you find some peace in your heart)? It seems merely a clear case of psychological projection, upon your part, in that you speak to others as you know you should really be spoken to yourselves. You are seemingly the ones in need of heeding your own vapid platitudes. Ah well, AA has always mostly attracted the feebler minded, so this is no surprise. Live on in your delusion. If it keeps you off the drink, I suppose it has that value, anyway.
The "desire"for booze just left me at Rehab.
I have come to believe that it was God did it.
since I had become completely hopeless.
We are not a glum lot.
WRONG-read Jung,Ernie....
Aa fanboy sickophant!!!
Bitterness, anger and resentment are poison, brother.