Upgrading My Honey Dipper's Cone. Does it make a difference?
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- Опубликовано: 7 июл 2024
- Upgrading my new Gretsch Honey Dipper with a National Resophonic cone. Is it worth the money? Does it make a big difference? Let's find out together.
00:00 Intro
00:08 Unboxing the New Cone
00:41 Gretsch: Premium Course Example
01:36 Cone Surgery
07:21 National: Premium Course Example
08:15 AB Comparison
09:05 My Thoughts (for now)
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Absolutely. Cleaner, crisper. It's like it takes more sound out of the body and brings it into the room. Nice move.
The "crazy, wild reverb" is exactly why I like the stock guitar. As a studio owner, I want one resonator that will give me something QUITE different from any other guitar I have. That means I'd keep the original cone. Great video; great job!
Interesting take and I completely get it. Thanks for commenting! John
To my ears the change is negligible, & as you said down to personal preference, which for me is the Gretsch. I think construction and body material makes the biggest difference. For e.g. I have a steel body MM Blues and a brass body Icarus Duolian. I love them both, but the MM sounds more “Vintage”. The Icarus more mellow but louder. The cones/strings are virtually identical.
Thanks for the insight. Would love to get my hands on a Messer.
Definitely dig the clearer tone of the national for my tastes. Food for thought! Great video! T
Yes. Deeper and sweet sound. love it
I saved a regal steel body resonator from a dirty hippie in Boulder a few years back. I used the hot rod cone and love it.
Nice comparison video! I’m a National Tricone player and I came at this from a different direction. Got into resos when a buddy let me borrow his Duolian a few years back and never got that single cone, biscuit bridge sound out of my head.
Bought a Honey Dipper a couple months ago and really dig it.
I agree in the more pronounced fundamental with the National cone, but, to my subjective ear, the Gretsch cone has more growl and delicious swampiness goin’ down. So much so, that I’m now wondering if I can get Tricone cones from the same manufacturer that spins cones for Gretsch!
Thanks for your generosity and good works.
✌️❤️🎵
Really, really hard to tell anything from a sound clip. Would have to be in person to really tell. But for me, listening to the recorded sound, I like the Gretsch cone better. It seemed to have a “grittier” sound and more sustain. I personally think a metal body resonator should be gritty. It might be interesting to try that experiment on my Gretsch Boxcar. Not sure I want to spend 80 bucks on a guitar that I gave less than 300 bucks for!
The Boxcar has a spider bridge, and it already sounds great for the price.
National is better
So very close. The difference would be actually holding & playing them both. Just like you did. 👍
Thanks for the video. It was so hard to tell the difference, they both sounded good. I haven’t changed my Alligator cone, as the guitar was quite cheap anyway. I think I could hear a little of what you said though - less ‘noise’ around the notes with the new cone. Cheers!
Great video, definitely keeping the stock Gretsch cone in my Honey Dipper.
Right on! Enjoy, Jake. Such a cool guitar.
Absolutely.
I did a similar thing with the Dean Resonator - I hear a mellower tone on my guitar (and yours)... I like that - although that Gretsch cone had an interesting sound... upgrading the Dean was worth it however - it totally changed the guitar... I also have a National Style N and both guitars sound similar so I can only assume that the cone is responsible for most of the sound quality (the metal composition and body size of both guitars is quite different)...
Great Post Sir!
Honestly with the bean sized speaker in my iPad the National cone seemed a little mellower and perhaps clearer too. That said, I do indeed love the sound of the original Gretsch cone.
Hey man, whatever floats your boat I say. In an ideal world I’d have BOTH a National & a Gretsch…best of both worlds. Haha
You and your loved ones stay healthy and safe during this time of Global Covid Craziness.
Cheers
I’m surprised but there was a difference. I heard better attack and sizzle from the new cone that I assumed was identical. Thanks for the demo
I swapped the cone in my Fender Brown Derby. The high strings and notes improved greatly, the low strings lost some thump but thats fine with me as I like the results. Yes I put the National engineered bridge in it also and it lowered the string action to a perfect height. Yes that greatly improved the ease of fingering of chords on it. I'm going to do the same to a recently acquired Dean brass body reso.
Very useful video. Cheers
Like the precision incision 👍
Haha, thanks!
I liked the more distinct tone of the National although it was not a drastic difference to my ear. I did like the sustain on the Gretsch. I have a Gretsch Bobtail mahogany spider cone that I like. I bought a small Recording King parlor with a biscuit cone as the weight of the Honey Dipper was too much for me. I keep the parlor tuned down and change the tuning on the Gretsch as needed. I'm not great on slide but I love messing around with it.
Exactly . . . . . the National cone has brought out the true resonator sound. You nailed it and for just $80 dollars. Good job pal ! !
You can buy cones from Quarterman cheaply. I bought a factory second cone for $50. It was a lot better than my 1977 Dobro cone, but I kept the original cone.
I'm still curious about resonators. Always instructive and fun to learn from your experience 🎶🎶🎶
Thanks Nicole, it was a fun experiment.
That come really brings out more sound than the Gretch cone
I suspect the original Gretsch cone is a decent copy of the national so the difference would be very subtle. I would have checked the intonation though before putting the hand rest back on the cover: you can get a little fine tuning by rotating the biscuit/come slightly. Both sounded good though!
Yeah, I tweaked the bridge off camera as I was stringing up. One thing I learned is just how good the stock cone is. Different but it still sounds good to me.
I'd keep the Gretsch cone . What I did learn is , the ceramic coating is also vital. I suspected that when I had to work on my resonator the other day..... I also think that the manufacturers have means of setting the cone at the correct angle and adjustment like setting the soundpost in a violin. If we have a lot of time we can keep adjusting the cone slightly to get it to resonate better . But a professional can set those in and turn it just right to maximize the entirety of the resonation.
As usual, this is up to personal taste. My view would be that Gretsch built that reso the way they did for a reason. Great demo by the way but YT compression does the sound no favors.
You really want to make a difference? Put your $ in the Fishman bridge pup and partner it with the JD AURA pedal (look for the pedal on ebay, I saved quite a bit there). When you hear all of the sounds that can be produced through your favorite acoustic amp you won't want to go back. You will still have a killer acoustic reso and you can pump it when you need some volume where your sound gets lost in large settings. Sorry John, I didn't mean to hi-jack your video but I love the JD pedal for reso.
I am not convinced either that I prefer the sound of the "upgraded" cone over the original, but maybe you could do a follow-up after the new one has broken in?
Also, I saw that Beard sell a very interesting replacement cone. Without the ribs (which they claim degrade sound quality), and with a special ceramic coating that they claim has only benefits too. I always thought that the Gretsch cones were just of a non-standard size but if a National cone works as a drop-in replacement, maybe the Beard one will too.
Maybe we could do a crowd-funding thingy for you to test this out on video? ;)
gonna prob grab a honey dipper, the beard cone sounds like the ticket if it fits!
The National cone will always be a better quality cone, You'll get even more improvement if you use the National biscuit and saddle too. That wood inside the body is a "neck stick", I always wondered if the Honey Dipper had one, really good that it does, it supports the sound well and it is braced against the back of the guitar.
I recently had my cone swapped from a continental to a national. The difference was much more noticeable in person. My guitar becane significantly louder, punchier and clearer sounding. The harmonics seem to be louder too.
Sounds to me like the low end is much better with the National cone but couldn't tell much about the sustain thru the sound clip. I think the National sounds better from what I can tell from here brother!
Thanks for chiming in! I've left the National in there since this video, I've really enjoyed it.
Your description is spot on to what I heard. It is a nice upgrade for only $80. I upgraded an inexpensive Johnson reso with the National Cone. It made an even bigger difference with that guitar than the Gresch. Not the sound of a real National guitar, though it was pretty nice.
I have a Johnson reso and I would like to ask if you changed the Biscuit also and did you add some kind of pick up ?
@@12babyapes59 I did get a National Biscuit as well. I did need to trim it down a bit because the action was too high for my liking. I didn’t add a pickup.
@@mandomonica thanks
listening on my laptop, which probably has a speaker the size of a peanut, I agree the National cone is mellower - the Gretsch seems to have more bite. Definitely a matter of personal preference. I have a Gretsch Boxcar, and I'm very happy with the sound, especially for slide, so I wouldn't spend the money personally.
I might be wrong, but from what I'm hearing (admittedly on less than perfect headphones), the National sounds... I'll say "punchier" than the stock Gretsch cone. A bit cleaner, too. It's not a massive change, but it's there. Might make that change if I can get my hands on a Gretsch some day, too.
Agreed, National cone did sound more clear than the Gretsch cone. Nice work!
Thanks! Appreciate you taking the time to comment, Dave. Cheers!
Really interesting, thanks John. I have a HD and changed the machine heads as the plastic tuning buttons got brittle. What strings do you use? I still go for the 12s it ships with.
Yeah, I really want to upgrade tuners. I'm sure I will down the road. I use John Pearse Reso strings 13s. Thanks for the comment!
Just aquired a 9221 spider cone with pickup. Would a national biscuit swap work, could I use the national cone and bridge with the original saddle?
Thank you! Another great Tuesday, love them all!
Do you think the upgrade is better bang for the buck
then to buy for example a Gold tone GRS for an extra $100 on top of the upgrade?
Look at Republic Guitars out of Austin TX. The founder died suddenly and the future is up in the air. My Republic Parlor Rocket UFO, is amazing, even with 9's I installed. I did a bit of setup work on it, though it arrived as close to my preferred setup as one could ever expect. Right now, their selection is limited as they decide what to do/ should we go forward. I also have a "Dobro" by Epiphone. It came to me set up for slide only. I use slide selectively so I am in the process of totally changing it over to a conventional pick/finger style guitar. That is delicate work, especially at the biscuit/saddle, but I build guitars, so the work is not intimidating. I may even experiment with different saddle material. The "Dobro" is a spider cone and has an all maple body---mostly laminated. As it comes, it is a disappointing guitar. The first thing I did was properly set relief, but not by using string height. I am making a new, genuine unbleached bone nut. I will have to lower the saddle without ruining the curve while at the same time maintaining intonation. An interesting project!! ATTN: John
j e tobey I’m from Sweden, the shipping is a nightmare unfortunately but thank you very much!
I’m trying to learn open G on. Gretsch Jim Dandy and I like the resonator sound. My action on my guitar is low so I get rattle. Does this resonator from Gretsch set them up for slide? Is this a higher action guitar with a heavier gauge string set? Thank you
I bought a Republic Highway 61. Coming from a Paul Beard spider reso the biscuit sound caught me off guard. I have a National cone coming for the biscuit bridge in a few days. I think I liked the way your Honey Dipper sounded with the stock cone. I hope the $80 National cone does more for my Republic guitar. Thanks for the great content!!
I don't hear much difference in my speakers but no matter (maybe I just had to be there). I just got a Honey Dipper last week. I love it! I sat down in the music store and played BPB. My wife's response was, "Get that one!" No argument here! I was actually shopping for an arch top but, hey, the world changes! I haven't gotten tired of what I am hearing so far but there's still lots of exploring to do! Thanks John, this was fun! (and, yes, the arch top is still on the list :))
I once spent 4 hours in a guitar shop trying classical guitars. While they were boxing it up for me, I played an acoustic I fell in love with and changed my purchase. They were flabbergasted. But hey - they still got a purchase! BTW, what is BPB?
National cones like being driven by heavier guage stribgs than the d'addario EJ16s (12s)...I had national cones added to a Vintage brand Tricone that had Michael messer 16s on and the difference was noticeably far better.
U have a gretsch boxcar since yesterday and wouldnt change a thing on it. Gretsch make greats resonators
I've dabbled with several different sets over the last year and I do like the sound of heavier gauges. Good point. The Boxcar is cool, enjoy it! Agree, these are great guitars. Cheers!
I thought the Gretsch cone had longer/louder sustain. Maybe a little harsher metallic sound at the twelfth fret. Does that brass slide mute metallic sounds a bit on the lower frets? Could have tested with a few different slides, e.g., stainless, glass, ceramic. I just bought a Honey Dipper specifically for the raw, harsh sound it can get. If I get another resonator, it'll probably be a wood body spider bridge for that sweeter sound. (Gretsch does have the metal body G9221 Bobtail Steel spider bridge (with piezo) for a sweet sound.)
I hear a slightly higher tone coming through. I can describe it as more open, with what I would call a slight howl, in a good way, with the new cone.
You might have got a similar tone with different strings. But now that you have the cone in, different strings could enhance it.
Was it worth it? That's up to the player.
If it were me, I would do it if it were my metal body. But then, I'm quite experienced diving after the "tone rabbit" in to that hole
i think i like the original dipper sound better 😊
but im also not one to mess around with original parts if they are half decent 🐸🍀
Definitely understand, me on the other hand...I'm constantly tweaking things. Feels more mine that way, but I get it.
Any thoughts on the difference in sustain?
I like the upgrade. Mellower, cleaner, but , like some said already, its a matter of taste. I wonder if those cones are all one size and interchangeable no matter what instrument?
I'm not sure but I measured my old one before ordering the national and it was a match just to make sure it would work on this one.
Yes. Sounds like it has more presence, less sustain and reverb, and a bit more thump.
I have the same guitar and I'd say that there was a subtle improvement in the sound with your change and for $80 it was certainly worth it. I'd be curious if changing the biscuit would have made a change s well. How do you feel about the action for slide playing, I think mine might be a bit on the low side so I'm thinking about ways to increase the action.
Thanks for the video. Really cool experiment. The old original sounds with a bit more of that delta blues vibe, really great tone. Btw what strings do you use for that Gretsch?
I like the John Pearse Spanish Roundneck's. I think they are the 790NR's?
@@BluesGuitarInstitute Thanks a lot. I'll check them out. I put Newtone phosphor bronze on my Gretsch , they sound good, but too clean to my ear. Feel like getting a bit more mid-range dirty tone. And it seems to me John Pearse strings might help with that. Cheers.
A/Bing between the two examples, the Gretsch cone is way more forward in the midrange. The National cone is cleaner and clearer, but to my ears that also makes it sound a little boring. I think you'd need one of each depending on the song (good excuse to buy another one!), but if I had to choose, I'd personally stick with the Gretsch one.
On decent headphones the National cone has a little more definition, where the Gretch cone has some more (400hz maybe) foggyness. It would be interesting to play with a parametric EQ or analyser in your DAW and really see what's going on.
Great video & I'm interested in that guitar for finger picking - would you recommend it?
Thanks Jonathan and yes, I love the Honey Dipper. It's a heckuva value for the money in my opinion.
Lot more overtones and clarity with the National cone, and keep in mind that like any speaker, they take time to break in.
great video, I would like to see one with a tri cone cone change it seams nobody does tri cones
A tricone is ony wishist 👍
I did the same thing about 2 months ago I replaced the cone in my honey dipper with the National hot rod cone and I love the sound. It’s now a poor mans National lol
Hi
I was told in a forum that the cone on my gretsch G9202 might have collapsed
Do you think the national would be a good replacement cone as I am struggling to get information
Could you send or put a link to the cone you bought please any help would be much appreciated.
Great video thanks
Paul
I liked my national cone and have kept it in my honeydipper since this video. Here's the link to the one I bought directly from National: www.nationalguitars.com/product-page/9-5-single-cone-biscuit-resonator
10:18 it would be great to weigh these cones for comparison
BINGO!! A huge data point
I liked the original Gretsch cone more because for me there should be a little muddiness in a resonator sound.
It's a psychological change. If it inspires you to like the instrument more and be more adventurous, then it was worth it. Personally, if I like the feel of the neck and can suss out a good tune, I'd have left it alone. I think tinkering with the bridge wood...🙄would change the tone much more. A piece of hard ebony, maple, Australian Buloke or Brazilian Walnut wood...🙄would brighten the heck out of it, or a softer wood...you see where I'm going. Please try it, I 🤣would like to see that and hear it. Good demo, resonators don't get a lot of love now days.
This is an old post but my Gretsch has a collapsed cone and I would like to just swap the cone and keep saddle, what model is this that fits in without modification?
Oh no, bummer. I bought National Guitars 9.5" cone directly from their site. I opted for their biscuit bridge too but I only just recently swapped out the gretsch for that one. The stock gretsch bridge worked just fine for me.
@@BluesGuitarInstitute thank you :)
The big change would be a swap of a cheap of a pressed cone for a spun cone. It looks like you swapped a spun cone for another spun cone so the difference would not be so great. I swapped a cheap pressed cone for a Bailey spun cone on my inexpensive square neck guitar and the difference was like night and day.
Sounded same to me
Hi friends, I have a question, this resonator, that have this type of cone, can be used with gauges 0.016 / 0.018 - 0.056 strings as Dunlop 1656? or it is a very high tension high for this kind of cone and will produce a collapse of cone. Thanks
Ok, I’ve got a republic minoleon that I’ve made a prosthetic for the neck, to make it a square-neck I use 16-56 and have had in both high G and D tuning. the original cone is starting to cave, but it’s close to 10 years. Personally I like to tune to F as it fits my voice better. From the video I’m not gonna upgrade, not enough difference but I am going to get a new cone, but even the old cone works just fine
@@stevencohen5494 Thanks for info.
The National cone is much more mellow, being an old wire and wood man, I like it.
It's still in there 👍
These Honey Dipper's and Swamp Dogs are all some of us can afford.
Gretsch gives more raw dry delta sound. The National more mellow and sustain
what slide are you using mate?
Hey Heath, in this video I'm using my Ariel Posen signature Rock Slide
Considering that it fit the way it did, my guess is that the two resonators are the same piece, aside from a cosmetic detail, and what you are hearing (as a difference) is merely the regular production variations in two samples. Same source, same materials, same part. Different day.
National make their own cones in house so it won't be made in the same place.
To my ears, the only difference I can hear is a little more definition in the National. However, it is slight, and I'm guessing that it could simply be due to the brand new set of strings that was most likely put on after the cone change (not implying any deception/trickery, just a likely unintended consequence).
i prefer the Gretsch, to me the noise lends to the past.
the national is tighter and more modern sounding to my ear
I think that's a good way to put it. Thanks for the comment!
I agree, it sounds more like the original recording.
Either one is fine with me. Is the Gretsch hard to play?
It has a V shape neck which took some getting used to, but I like it and don't find it hard to play. The setup is the key to that though.
@@BluesGuitarInstitute I’m going to try one. You do make it sound good! Thanks! (If I don’t like the point of the V, I’ll sand it down a tad.Lol)
not really , unless the national cone has some magic break in period ... but if thats true , I think it would to the original Gretch cone as well
I actually liked the Gretsch’s cone better. It sounds a bit brighter
what's the name of that slide tho???
That's the Ariel Posen Signature Rock Slide. It's fantastic.
Much more sustain with the NRC. The notes sounded clipped with the Gretsch cone.
Interesting about the clipping, I'll go back and listen to that. Thanks for the comment. As an update I left the national cone in. I really like it.
I like the National cone.
But did it sound $80 better? Maybe..
Thanks for chiming in, Tony. I tend to favor the national and it's been in my honeydipper since this video was shot. Definitely not sure if it was worth the $80, but I guess now I have a back up and it was a fun experiment. Cheers!
I thought the difference was nice. But subtle. I think whether or not it was worth it depends on whether or not you as the owner thinks it is. As a listener I would have to hear it in person.
My other thought is, when changing it out, it seems like it would be easier to loosen the strings and remove the tail piece than to have to put the strings back in the tuners. I think there are just 4 screws holding the tail piece in place.
Gretsch cone is more raw and root sounding, as delta blues ought to have
It would not surprise me if both cones are from the same source
I could see that. They do sound different though
@@BluesGuitarInstitute National make their own cones so they won't be. Some cones are wound like the National, cheaper cones are stamped out, probably like the Gretsch. They do both sound reasonable though.
i do not hear any difference; if anything the original has more projection. You may recall that I recommended a Republic Resonator. Right now I have gone down to "9's" and even though mine is a parlor size it is a killer boomer. I have seen some identical swaps on brands other than ours, and there was a noticeable difference. I believe the biscuit/saddle "unit" is sourced from the same supplier for the. Republic and the National.
I would love to trade notes with you on your Republic. I have the parlor Highway 61. You have 9s on yours????!!! WOW! I went down to 12s but even 10s would be great. I am going to have to try it. Shoot me a message via my YT channel is you want to compare notes. I added a Replogle bridge and biscuit and did hear a difference.
If I’d put a upgraded cone in it I would have got a better biscuit bridge too.
Got one with the new cone. Will be doing that later. But was interested in just the cone difference. Thanks for the comment.
@@BluesGuitarInstitute when you think you might make the biscuit comparison video?
Can I ask... Every other vid like this one, where the person is swapping out cones, it is always a Beard cone. Why did you just go with this one and not a Beard? Thanks
I'm just drawn to National resontators so thought I'd test out the cone.
Msost instuments made in China, can have a differemt brand name, variation of cosmetics but they tend to be the same in many cases. Do some research into Tecording King, Gold Tone banjos for example . The original sounds fine and to me a uprade to the honey dipper would be a cutaway version and do something about thr ugly peghead being white like vaneer it and downsize the name across the top.
the national is a bit more clearer . . .
Real interesting the original sounded better on the video but you truly can't tell unless your the one holding it I guess
2:31 “loosened”?!!?
haha. loosened....off...same thing right? words is hard.
@@BluesGuitarInstitute Lol (Sorry…) I a no professor.
worth it I'm failing to hear the difference
for what gretch charges...you shouldn't need to upgrade that key part
I definitely didn't need to but wanted to experiment.
Stay with the original. It's just more raw and true.
The Gretsch sounded better
Not crazy ….
I couldn't hear any difference.
Nah....Save your money keep the Gretsch
Nah - You wasted $80. Some things should be left alone.
I like it so it wasn't a waste to me 👍
I've got the computer conencted to the Hifi. Does it sound better with the new cone? Not really, worth the change? Not really. Man, you can play, no problem there but that guitar sounds like a dead can....just no resonance really....compared to National this is pure crap. Sure there's a difference in price but I was expecting much more from the change....got a new National triolian (well, it's from the 90's so not so new anymore) and it sounds like a bell in comparison (with a new national cone in it) and a thinner 31's triolian that resonates wonderfully, and it has in it the same cone that you put in that dead can from gretsch as the old cone was in such a bad shape....I mean that guitar sounds like cheap chinese crap while it has a nice cone from Naitonal in it, so is it worth the change? No. Maybe you hear some difference being so close to the guitar but from here, almost no difference, still sounds like crap. I've heard Epi resos that did sound OK for the price, but that thing is pure crap....with your playing you deserve a better reso :) But the video was very interesting so thanks for it! I really believed it would make a difference...but no :) Maybe a string-change too? That guitar isnät wirth the $80 cone anyway.
Ouch! I do appreciate you taking the time to listen critically. Maybe another vid doing a head to head with a National? :)
Totally not worth it. The original Gretsch sounded much better
Horseshit. They're identical. You swapped a brand name piece of metal for a more popular name brand piece of metal that didn't sustain as long as the original.
I think the replacement cone sounds somewhat more melodic. If you want the old time Delta sound, use the original cone. It’s grittier. 👍🌞🎸🎵🩵