This would make for an incredible engagement piece. Perfect for a major holiday, with lots of sponsors and product demos weaved in. The amount of effort and time required necessitates substantial compensation for Seth.
@@szymonsokolinski9907 If an actor gets three credits in a single feature, does that actor get paid triple, or does the studio save 2/3 on the performance budget? I smell Dr. Strangelove callbacks.
@@michaelcottle6270 Like being a DM running a campaign with several DMPC's and no players where the DMPC's are themselves controlling one PC each. I see *no* potential for confusion there.
The one time I've seen GM intervention work is when there's a new player at the table and the rest of the group has been together for a long time. I've seen players feel, fairly legitimately, like they would be going up against a "united front" and felt that they needed the GM to act as something of an icebreaker. In a couple of cases, I've seen (or been) the GM basically saying "hey guys, it looks to me like you're just kinda ignoring the New Guy and leaving them out. If you don't want them in the group, let's have that talk, but otherwise, it would be a good idea to try to actively include them more". And it usually worked. But that's a pretty specific type of situation.
I'm thinking Todd isn't crazy; he's just the only one who made his save to not be charmed by "Kevin". Think about it: Kevin is after more magic items and wants to direct the party "just climb the walls," straight into danger. Next thing you know, Seth is missing, Kevin is GMing, and Todd is the only one who notices!
After the opening, I really really wanted to finally hear Dweebles full story of the Turtle in the hat. But now I see that it's actually better if we all never hear it. Any actual story will pale in comparison to the epic tales we have all made up in our own heads.
00:21 You have no idea how much I empathized with that gesture after the players left. Planning a campaign is tremendous fun and even more exciting because of all the possibilities and possible scenes that you imagine could happen, but running the campaign... is a lot of work and tons of stress because you have the responsibility of making sure that everyone has a good time and manage each person's brightness time so that no one is overshadowed or bored, but you also want it to be a good story, wanting to follow the rules so that everything works well but at the same time having the pressure not to slow down or pause the flow of the narrative/events. You know that the entire session and the continuation of the campaign depends on you, but at the same time if the players abandon the campaign it also get cancelled. I go through a lot of stress before each gaming session and when it's over I breathe a sigh of relief... and although several times I usually feel good with how all turns out, on several other occasions I start thinking about everything that has happened and I get disappointed or reproach myself because some things I could have done them better if I had more time without having to improvise at some point. Especially on occasions when I have to generate places and characters on the spot, in the moment. This has made me like web forum campaigns, with posts every 1 to 3 days, which allows each person to be quite narrative and detailed in their posts about their character's actions and expressions, but running campaigns like this becomes much more slow... also, you have to constantly check the website to post your participation, which is like constantly maintaining that responsibility instead of just placing it on a single specific day. And of course, you lose the adrenaline of the flow of events, the immediacy of the response that keeps things alive. Many times these campaigns end up cooling down until they are abandoned. And the solo rpg is quite like writing a book.
This is one of the reasons, if given a choice, I prefer to DM for players that know each other before the game starts. Typically, there's fewer (but not zero) player/player issues then.
When I ask the GM to talk to another player about something in my behalf, it's because they've given me reason to believe they'll be more receptive if it's coming from them rather than me.
God, I’ve had this happen a lot. One guy wanted to play an anachronistic Greaser character in Faerun, another time, a player had brought in a magic item from a different game into mine without telling me, another time my brother’s character was being targeted for being proactive… it’s hard to deal with all the squabbles of adults.
Man, I'm bum'd that Kevin isn't having as much fun as he can be. I really feel Kevin has added so much to this channel, right from the start. We need more Kevin.
Just at the right time! Yesterday I just had a talk with our Pathfinder group about communication and it felt much better afterwards. Communications is key! I just sent them this video because I think you just said the right things. Thank you so much for your content. I enjoy and appreciate it very much!
"Nah, we're never gonna see Kevin again..." Man! The gang really don't take well to tattle-tales. (And since we know that Dweebles is the stone-cold BAMF of the group, we can guess that his asking about Kevin was a red herring to deflect suspicion)
The most awkward situations are when some players are clearly the GM's favourites (players more so than characters) and it is *really* difficult to try and bring that up as an un-favourite. In a particular example in a group of 7, 3 players would constantly interact between themselves and the world, hogging all the time and mostly excluding everyone else. Those were also the most powerful characters by quite a margin (some of that due to the GM permitting some homebrew stuff he later admitted he probably shouldn't have as well as outright buffs handed out to them, to the point where one of them got an instant-buff that made her suddenly as powerful in combat as the rest of the group combined plus some utility, offset by a minor narrative debuff that was cured via magical amulet 30 real-time minutes later). We other 3 players felt very weird and out of place; and mind you, we are not total introverts, we just were very much not in the "inner circle". But yeah, trying to bring this up was something we never managed. Fortunately, the campaign ended before the unhappiness reached the event horizon.
This upload comes at a great time! A couple of friends of mine are having trouble at their virtual table. I posted this video in our general TTRPG Discord. Hopefully they will use your guidance to evolve into more robust players, and generally, people. On a personal note: It has been definitely awkward being that guy who brings up any issues at the table. However I can confidently say that my co-players and I are even closer than we were before. Not only knowing that a meeting area is *actually* safe to be vulnerable/honest but also that you'll be genuinely listened to is core for long lasting friendships and cohesive teamwork, at least in my personal opinion. Keep up the great work, Seth!
Over 30 years of Game mastering and this has never happened to me, but I've experienced unhappy players just bottling up their frustrations until they leave the game as a result, instead of trying to talk to the group. Most players have had no issues communicating their frustrations openly and respectfully at the table however.
Same here - although "communicating their frustrations openly and respectfully at the table" has occasionally looked more like "throwing dice and/or pizza at each other" in my experience. Although to be fair, there were some out-of-game infidelity issues involved with the pizza incident, and we were all much younger then. There was also the one guy who stole the GM's cat rather than talk to him about the way he was mistreating the animal. Still scratching my head about that one as to who was in the wrong. Both of them, maybe?
Definitely good stuff to keep in mind. Thankfully the closest my group gets to this is asking one another to if they think someone else was enjoying their time, or asking another to gauge how someone else is feeling. I.E. our DM knows one player in the group less than the others do, so he'll often ask me if that player's enjoying a particular aspect of the game b/c I know his reactions better. Or if I notice someone at the table acting negatively to my roleplay, I might ask some of the others if I was over-stepping or if they noticed a reaction so I can actually talk/apologize to that person with us becoming less likely to argue. The key really is to talk to each other and solve problems within the group as a group.
This might be Seth's best video advice ever. Seen this far too many times and also had a group break due to people communicating by DM instead of with eachother.
There are three... two and a half kinds of people that always resort to asking the GM to speak on their behalf. 1: Introverts who avoid confrontation either out of fear of other people getting angry or fear of their own poor oration skills. 2: Snakes in the grass who are more interested in trying to get other players 'in trouble' than actually resolving the issue. 3: People unsure of themselves and are looking for validation from the GM before they pursue these complaints. I count this as a half as this is a pretty human thing. They want to make sure that their issue is valid and they aren't blowing it out of proportion. They might also talk to the other players about something the GM is doing before confronting the GM about it, just to make sure they aren't exaggerating the problem. I am #3. I learned a long time ago to stop saying "Can you talk to them for me" and start asking "Am I wrong to feel like they are being jerks?" I want a third party to make sure I am not making a mountain out of a molehill.
Thank you, Seth, and I really wish these kind of videos had been available when we where young. On the other hand I find that youngsters today are much better at social and interpersonal dynamics, maybe because we are more involved with them, but I think it's mainly because they have rich access to verbal communication from non-authoritan athority persons, combined with the older generations involvement in hobby-activities, like sport, roleplaying, etc.
The Kevin bit definitely got me smiling, that was a turn I did not expect and it was great! I do also like the video, it certainly brings up good points and I can see myself a bit in these roles. Whenever I usually have a problem I tend to try to reach out to people I feel most comfortable with to first establish "Is this just me or..." and if it ends up being just me, then I take it from there, either take it further or I just leave the group like Kevin if everyone else is enjoying it the way it is.
This is how most big arguments start, if not handled correctly. If every player at the table has 2 or 3 small issues. I don't argue with my players, if someone has an issue I listen to them and I make my decision. I had a buddy a" rules lawyer "that moved away for while, when he came back he couldn't stand the litigation process had been eliminated from the game. I'm not a tyrant, but to let 1 player high jack the run, can ruin the run for everyone. He started to storm off, but when he realized we were going to keep playing with out him. He wanted to sit back down and argue. I told him I would call him when we finished, and I did. And we had an hour long discussion of what he wanted, and what I was open to. Afterwards we reached an understanding, and he played in the next game. Some people love to argue, some people are bullies, and some people are bullies playing the victim. Just remember everybody is there to have fun. Seth you make a great point. I enjoyed the episode, do some more characters.
Video idea: How to get wildly different PCs to work together. For example, say I have a Cop and a Rockerboy who led riots in the same Cyberpunk party. Or a detective and a bootlegger in the same CoC party. Short of banning PvP, banning certain roles or the GM forcing them to work together, what steps can be taken to ensure they at least play together without ripping their throats out, literally or figuratively? I don't want them to 100% cooperate, they should be distrustful of each other if it makes sense for the story (PC rivalry is fine. In fact, that could be the video topic: how to handle rival PCs) Many thanks for your videos, Seth! Got me into tabletop when there was nothing to do in the pandemic
Providing the campaign doesn't have a pre-determined theme (such as, "You're all pirates," or, "You're all in a travelling circus together") there's a few methods. PC Organizations, such as they all belong to a club or guild, which means these wildly different characters have this shared connection. I'm a big fan of Investigator Organizations in Call of Cthulhu. Shared backstory. Before one was a Rockerboy and the other a Cop, they grew up together, or served time or were in the military together, or something that bonded them despite their lives going separate directions. Traveller uses this, where each PC has a shared backstory experience with at least 2 other PCs. Shared or intertwined goal. If this is going to be a campaign with a long-running story, then you introduce it early as to why they should work together to reach their goals (eliminate a shared threat, assist a shared friend, both are framed for some crime and have to prove their innocence, one wants to find the badguy to arrest them while the other wants to reclaim some item the badguys has, etc.). Once the goal is achieved, if the campaign is still going with these characters, either a new goal should be introduced or the players will need to take an active role in deciding why they're still adventuring together despite their differences. Bringing them together for the initial shared goal is easy. But after that it's often best that the players help determine why they're still together.
Ah man, i remember calling for an intermediary one time in a game group. I was the Referee, and my friends Girlfriend (with whom I was acquainted but not actual friends with) would regularly make strange attempts to bond by “jokingly/ all in good humor” take a jab at a characteristic of my personal lifestyle. This went on for a few years and while it didn’t initially bother me, it did wane on me, it definitely bothered members of the group. In spite of myself and other people around dropping subtle hints that what she was doing wasn’t funny, she wouldn’t get a hint. After one session, i decided to explain to my friend “Look, i am aware that she feels like this is a way to bond and all, but I feel like i am going to just openly chew her out about it if she does it one more time. I am done hearing it, it wasn’t funny then and it isn’t funny now.” I asked him to relay that message so I wouldn’t make a scene during the next session. That was a situation where an intermediary was appropriate for myself. Going out of my way to communicate with her “could” have been done, but it wasn’t really something that i ever really lost sleep about, or even thought about much tbh. I only really thought about it because I mentally decided to call her out in front of the group as it happened. “Did she ever stop?” Yeah
I can see why grown-up players would do this: in a way, like many similar "meta" problems in the RPG group, the idea has been bundled into decades of the baggage of the game-master being described in well-meaning advice and rule-books as the group's "referee" and "organizer" - and, sadly, a lot of workplaces are run that way, too, with the manager being tasked with refereeing employee conflicts because the workplace culture works on the assumption that employees can't be trusted to sort out their own problems - and some families operate on this sort of authoritarian structure, where the "head of the household" is expected to keep the entire family in order, and make decrees that will be the "final word" on these little conflicts! And naturally, it can carry over into role-playing groups that operate the same way, until breaking apart, and sending players with assertiveness problems to your group to carry on the cycle, with the encouragement of game writers who talk about your role as if managing player conflicts for them is a normal part of your job! That is, I think this sort of thing becomes a sort of "learned helplessness", reinforced by certain management styles, and encouraged by some gaming books and advice. It doesn't help that a lot of gamers -especially older ones - have a stereotypical gamer's awkward social skills, and play that socially-awkward role to the hilt! Of course, I think most of us take the description of "referee" to mean that GMs are there to make a final decision on interpretation of the rules, rather than to act like some sort of translator and diplomat between players who cannot or will not communicate directly, but that's a bit beside the point: well-meaning game writers tend to saddle GMs with a whole lot of responsibilities over the game, from buying snacks to providing scheduling and transportation solutions for everyone to shouldering most of the responsibility for entertaining the group to fixing broken rules to playing a game of Diplomats & Therapists with hostile group members! When that runs head-long against bad social habits among players....
Determining if someone is just venting is one of the first things to do, in many aspects of life, not just gaming. It can be tricky however, since a lot of people who are venting, aren't always ready do admit that's all it is.
Aw, Mike came around to actually wanting to stick around to listen to stories. :) The skit subplots are the best. Great video! I've found myself asking the DM or being asked about other players as the DM before, food for thought.
I've had 2 players who felt unacknowledged, but honestly, they were. They gave input and ideas that the group rejected. They would create drama when their idea wasn't used. They objected when other ideas that weren't theirs were preferred. They demanded items or hoarded treasure to then not use said items. Both made demands upon the group that were unacceptable. Both are no longer welcome. I've also been a player at tables where obnoxious players hog the spotlight, steamrolling others simply because they can. They continue until a DM steps in, which in some cases, never happens. The very first table my youngest played at was one such table, and we never returned to that one. I've also had quiet players who needed support to get their ideas across. This I certainly can help with. The trick, I've found, is to try and catch these situations live - during play - so that they can be addressed without resentment. Some who are quiet are embarrassed to step up, and are even more embarrassed when someone steps up for them. In these cases, it is sometimes necessary to encourage the quiet players to speak up, knowing that they will have your support to do so. If they still cannot, it is sometimes necessary to address issues based on how you perceive them as DM. Players who get defensive whenever they receive criticism are really the basis behind the problem. When communication means a fight will break out, quiet players with issues will refuse to speak up. It usually ends with the quiet players quitting...usually over and over. Let's also talk about "seeing the players as children" - act childish, get treated like a child. Players who bully others, demand their points of view supersede all others, and who refuse to abide by rules or agreements are acting in an immature manner. Sometimes, you gotta call this out.
Something similar that happened in my group is, I had a player complain that he couldn't really roleplay because he couldn't get a word in and therefore his he couldn't use his background. It was really difficult to tell him that he just needed to speak up more because no one was talking over him. Hell it was their first campaign so there was tons of silence. Good times
As GM I find there are times when everyone is very spontaneous with comments and ideas and times when I need to say "Susie, Is that what you're going to do too?" Because she hasn't said a thing the entire time and I want to know that she's on board and engaged
Man, I needed this video like two years ago, and it's great that it's around now for everyone else. We figured out that people had to actually speak to each other instead of through the DM or a trusted player, and while it ended up being a case of a player that wasn't particularly conducive to group cohesion, it's been learned for the next time around and we were able to keep an extra player in these trying times.
Great video. Thank you for taking this on and I think your advice is spot on. Also, I like that you threw in that aspect that a GM is not some sort of authority figure over the players outside of the context of game mechanics -- but in fact is their peer. This should be common sense, but I think some GMs get a bit carried away, which can lead into socially destructive territory. It is tough though. I do recall one incident a couple years back where a player approached me to complain about another player (both were relatively new players to my rotating campaign game) and joined at the same time. At first, they got along fine and they seemed to be almost a team within the team, so I was surprised when one of them later approached me about issues they were having with the other player. I felt that it was his responsibility to approach the other player and work it out and suggested that he do so by just explaining his feelings. But not all players are confident enough to do that. The complaining player said he would do so and I didn't hear anything more about it; so assumed it had been worked out. I'm not sure if the complaining player ever did, but eventually that player just up and quit a few months later. And several months after that, I finally ended up removing the other player in question -- the very first time that I had ever done this in decades of gaming. In hindsight, I felt that I should have interceded, not as an authority figure, by as a facilitator, perhaps by scheduling an airing out session prior to that session's game, not calling anyone out in particular, but just letting anyone bring out any grievances, thoughts, suggestions, or ideas. I do regret not doing anything at the time, because it led to someone having bad enough feelings that they just quit, and it quite likely allowed the others player's negative tendencies to go unchecked and escalate to the point where he had to go. One can never be certain, but had I interceded by just facilitating a group session, it might have changed that outcome for both. Hindsight is 20/20 but on retrospect, I felt I could have done better; so lesson learned.
As things like this are often disregarded as _not part of TTRPGs,_ it does come up as a concern a whole lot. Just basic interpersonal communication skills -- they aren't entirely common and they certainly aren't taught in public school... at least not in the US. I try never to be a middleman. If someone comes to me and asks me to talk to someone else on their behalf, I'll either facilitate the people talking to each other and step back (in an example like the video, I'd broach the subject while _everyone_ was at the table and hand it off so Kevin wasn't using me as an authority figure). Or, I will refrain from agreeing at all and instead talk to the person as a sort of "devil's advocate" while also encouraging them to speak to the others directly. Because my personal philosophy is that 1. Problems almost never just go away on their own and you need to address them directly. 2. If you rely on someone else to solve it for you, you might not get the result you want. And 3. It's way better to just be upfront and direct with people because for me that has always mitigated "drama" and misunderstandings that come from indirectness or relying on passing messages through someone else. A good 90% or more of instances of people saying they have some problem with their gaming group or GM or a certain player come down to "talk to the person." Just some good ol' communication does wonders. And keep in mind, I say this as an introvert with his own fair share of social anxiety. I am way more comfortable if I know where I stand with people than if I'm trying to guess based on rumors and hints and third-hand information.
@@DabroodThompson imo thats kind of an extension of the issue i mentioned, but yeah, it's a problem for sure. i don't think it's intentional so much as like, a subconscious bias or smth
Wow. I had no idea how much I needed to hear this. What a weight off my shoulders! I will definitely be sharing this with my players! I love your channel. It’s intelligent, witty, and I love your anti- P vs GM mindset! I’ve been watching your videos for a while now, and today I finally gave in and made an account so that I could subscribe.
I appreciate this. I've seen too many videos saying it's my job to deal with social issues, when I too play D&D because I'm bad at social interaction. There's a reason I don't want kids.
Great advice! Given the RPG contract the GM does however have a leadership role (as he is most invested) also outside the game universe. He can help mediate a difficult conversation between the players. I recommend leading an evaluation of the game and of the meta-game. What do you think works best? What could improve it most? and hearing all. Then the Kevin during the meta-game evaluation can voice that him being listened to would help the most. Perhaps a video about evaluating?
Hey Seth! Just wanted to tell that thanks to your videos, I finally took the plunge and played my first CoC game yesterday. I had an absolute blast with it. I was lucky enough to find a group of veterans of the game on roll20 and we played The Lightless Beacon as a celebration of the 40th anniversary of CoC. I didn't want to be the clunker on this party of seasoned players so I watched your CoC Overview series again. Happy to say I at least didn't hinder the other investigators (I didn't come up with any brilliant plans either, but hey, they had a lot of fun, too!)
Our group mostlu had a flair for speaking between themselves in character. Not too much table talk unless it was in the form of a joke or non advantage having statement.
The Kevin problem was dealt with........ . I too have the useless Invisibility super power unless I make a lot of noise...., Kevin is the glue that binds the universe together.... unless one is Todd.
Kevin has a point. They steamroller him so much that he's never been in a video before. Also, Todd doesn't even know he exists...and Todd was actually GM for an adventure.
Quit a group after the DM couldn't keep his own game straight and had to co-opt mine despite I had already established the character I was running in his was banished from the world my game was set on into the one his was set on. That character only ended up like that after he messed up his introductory adventure. Ultimate lesson is if your introductory adventures isn't important then don't involve any of the character's back stories in that introduction because if you do that location IS important!
If we're getting the final answer to the story about the turtle in the little blue beanie, I will die a happy man. Also, when Kevin appeared, I literally jumped. We got ourselves an "Adam from Torchwood" here.
Communication is key. This is why I find most "safety" tools redundant. Good old communication is usually the best tool to prevent or mitigate a social problem. I don't think there is much a of a need to reinvent the wheel. When people sit on even a minor annoyance it will almost always snowball into resentment or even animosity. To me? A lot of those tools seem to bend over backwards to avoid or postpone talking about a problem and facilitate melodrama instead of group resolution.
Plot twist: Todd is the only one who can't see dead people
This is now canon.
Todd, the accident wasn't your fault. Anyone could have knocked that d4 onto the floor...
Epic weapon grade Todd.
@@SSkorkowsky I am here for the deepening lore of the Seth Skorkowsky Demonstration Skit Cinematic Universe.
@@SSkorkowsky hahaha
I would watch a staged podcast that was just Seth and Seth's persona's playing RPGs together. That would be gold.
This would make for an incredible engagement piece. Perfect for a major holiday, with lots of sponsors and product demos weaved in. The amount of effort and time required necessitates substantial compensation for Seth.
@@macoppy6571 *Seths
@@szymonsokolinski9907 If an actor gets three credits in a single feature, does that actor get paid triple, or does the studio save 2/3 on the performance budget? I smell Dr. Strangelove callbacks.
This should at least be a full Christmas special 🤣
"No. You can't have an effigy of a twelve-headed half-dragon bebilith"
When Kevin appeared that was like a jumpscare, man was so foreign to my mind he must've been a mythos entity
"Okay, we've got dice, character sheets, drinks, chips. Why do I still feel like we're missing something?......... KEVIN!!!"
Perhaps there is a false assumption?
ruclips.net/video/Y3gT9kpn5Qo/видео.html
Nice.
Oh my god, that was great, darth!
If it makes you feel any better, I forgot my reading glasses.
Poor Kevin and his amazing Patrick Warburton voice.
Haha I came here to post this exact same thing.
I wonder if he does his own theme tune...
Kevin's staff. The staff for Kevin. The staff intended for Kevin.
"Kevin is not real, his moaning can't ruin your game" - Todd, probably.
They ignore Kevin so much its like his very first appearance or something......^_^
Can we get a one-shot campaign of Seth and his alt-seths....please
I love this idea, but I hate to think how much work that would be for Seth. Writing and performing 4 (or 5 if we include Kevin) parts.
@@michaelcottle6270 Like being a DM running a campaign with several DMPC's and no players where the DMPC's are themselves controlling one PC each. I see *no* potential for confusion there.
Soulds like a huge time investment for Seth, but if I was a millionaire I'd sponsor this event. ^^
He's already done this. Well, sort of. The video where he does the skit about the Edgelord is pretty close to what you want. Comedy gold!
Seth isn't real, Kevin is the real one.
Gold! Absolute gold! Todd not knowing who Kevin is was hilarious.
Kind of like poor Milton in "The Suicide Squad" ^_^
Well, to be fair, I didn't know who was either.
@@jesternario It's Kevin! Here's been there for like three years! C'mon, you know Kevin.
Don't let my players know this, but I actually have one player in my group that I once forgot existed.
Seriously though, who is Kevin?
This video could be easily renamed "Mature communication between adults: how to handle it" and it would still make perfect sense. Nice video, Seth 👍🏻.
The one time I've seen GM intervention work is when there's a new player at the table and the rest of the group has been together for a long time. I've seen players feel, fairly legitimately, like they would be going up against a "united front" and felt that they needed the GM to act as something of an icebreaker.
In a couple of cases, I've seen (or been) the GM basically saying "hey guys, it looks to me like you're just kinda ignoring the New Guy and leaving them out. If you don't want them in the group, let's have that talk, but otherwise, it would be a good idea to try to actively include them more".
And it usually worked. But that's a pretty specific type of situation.
I'm thinking Todd isn't crazy; he's just the only one who made his save to not be charmed by "Kevin". Think about it: Kevin is after more magic items and wants to direct the party "just climb the walls," straight into danger. Next thing you know, Seth is missing, Kevin is GMing, and Todd is the only one who notices!
As sad as it is that we’ll never see Kevin again, Seth did not say he left the game. He is still there, waiting for his turn to talk.
He's got a really low initiative roll. Really low.
I'm in this comment, and I don't like it.
That bit where Todd says Kevin to himself is hilarious.
Yeah super hilarious
I feel bad for being thankful Kevin isn't going to be around anymore.
I instantly saw him as the Poochie of the group.
Words hurt.
The bit at the end made me think of "Poochie returned to his home planet."
Kevin has been in like every episode since… what are you talking about?
After the opening, I really really wanted to finally hear Dweebles full story of the Turtle in the hat. But now I see that it's actually better if we all never hear it. Any actual story will pale in comparison to the epic tales we have all made up in our own heads.
Kevin was actually my top pick for Dweebles' real name until today.
Some people are keeping records, better watch out Seth.
I like how he created a new character, and then pretended Kevin has always been a part of the gaming group; for the guy who feels like he is ignored.
Okay, it is clear that Seth is some kind of changeling or shifter or mimic with the amount of voices he's able to do perfectly
That sketch was awesome! Still my best ever is PEANUT HEAD AND THE BONESAW!
00:21 You have no idea how much I empathized with that gesture after the players left. Planning a campaign is tremendous fun and even more exciting because of all the possibilities and possible scenes that you imagine could happen, but running the campaign... is a lot of work and tons of stress because you have the responsibility of making sure that everyone has a good time and manage each person's brightness time so that no one is overshadowed or bored, but you also want it to be a good story, wanting to follow the rules so that everything works well but at the same time having the pressure not to slow down or pause the flow of the narrative/events. You know that the entire session and the continuation of the campaign depends on you, but at the same time if the players abandon the campaign it also get cancelled. I go through a lot of stress before each gaming session and when it's over I breathe a sigh of relief... and although several times I usually feel good with how all turns out, on several other occasions I start thinking about everything that has happened and I get disappointed or reproach myself because some things I could have done them better if I had more time without having to improvise at some point. Especially on occasions when I have to generate places and characters on the spot, in the moment.
This has made me like web forum campaigns, with posts every 1 to 3 days, which allows each person to be quite narrative and detailed in their posts about their character's actions and expressions, but running campaigns like this becomes much more slow... also, you have to constantly check the website to post your participation, which is like constantly maintaining that responsibility instead of just placing it on a single specific day. And of course, you lose the adrenaline of the flow of events, the immediacy of the response that keeps things alive. Many times these campaigns end up cooling down until they are abandoned. And the solo rpg is quite like writing a book.
Seth, those transition screens with players at a table all dressed like they are in a 1920 coc game, are nice and apreciated.
Kevin has been my favorite cast member since the very beginning.
Kevin has been here the whole time and they don't pay him any mind
Yeah, makes you think that they really do ignore Kevin and probably would if he brought up how he felt about being completely ignored.
Defiantly need to add the "Seriously, who the hell is Kevin?" T-shirt to the store.
This is one of the reasons, if given a choice, I prefer to DM for players that know each other before the game starts. Typically, there's fewer (but not zero) player/player issues then.
Holy shit a new character, and he gets a name right away!
Also, the bottom line here I feel is the GM should be a mediator, not a messenger.
Glad to see him featured. I've been a fan of Kevin's for several years.
Kevin is a great, so glad he was finally the focus of an episode. He always has the funniest things to say, he’s just so quiet sometimes.
Okay, time to go to bed.
(Seth posts a new video)
Yeah, think i can stay awake for 13:18 more.
When I ask the GM to talk to another player about something in my behalf, it's because they've given me reason to believe they'll be more receptive if it's coming from them rather than me.
God, I’ve had this happen a lot. One guy wanted to play an anachronistic Greaser character in Faerun, another time, a player had brought in a magic item from a different game into mine without telling me, another time my brother’s character was being targeted for being proactive… it’s hard to deal with all the squabbles of adults.
I was not prepared for a new character especially with such a magnificent beard and Patrick Warburton voice
Set is so freaking good at dialogue between his personas I sometimes forget it's all the same dude.
Amazing. It's like every single one of your videos is pulled right out of my gaming group!
[Squinting Fry]
When a new player has a name and you don't. I see you Dweebles. I'm watching you.
I felt this one in my soul. I've experienced players getting mad at me for refusing to address their problems with other players.
Man, I'm bum'd that Kevin isn't having as much fun as he can be. I really feel Kevin has added so much to this channel, right from the start. We need more Kevin.
I'll do whatever I can.
Just at the right time! Yesterday I just had a talk with our Pathfinder group about communication and it felt much better afterwards. Communications is key! I just sent them this video because I think you just said the right things. Thank you so much for your content. I enjoy and appreciate it very much!
Hope your group's communication improves after yesterday's talk.
@@SSkorkowsky I feel like it already improved within the last two days :)
"Nah, we're never gonna see Kevin again..."
Man! The gang really don't take well to tattle-tales.
(And since we know that Dweebles is the stone-cold BAMF of the group, we can guess that his asking about Kevin was a red herring to deflect suspicion)
The most awkward situations are when some players are clearly the GM's favourites (players more so than characters) and it is *really* difficult to try and bring that up as an un-favourite.
In a particular example in a group of 7, 3 players would constantly interact between themselves and the world, hogging all the time and mostly excluding everyone else. Those were also the most powerful characters by quite a margin (some of that due to the GM permitting some homebrew stuff he later admitted he probably shouldn't have as well as outright buffs handed out to them, to the point where one of them got an instant-buff that made her suddenly as powerful in combat as the rest of the group combined plus some utility, offset by a minor narrative debuff that was cured via magical amulet 30 real-time minutes later). We other 3 players felt very weird and out of place; and mind you, we are not total introverts, we just were very much not in the "inner circle". But yeah, trying to bring this up was something we never managed. Fortunately, the campaign ended before the unhappiness reached the event horizon.
I think my favorite thing about this video is the sigh after the game session by the DM. That is REAL! It’s exhausting
This is what I like about your stuff, Seth. You treat your audience more like peers, lots of other RUclips DMs seem to want to be authorities.
Woke up just in time for some good old RPG Philosophy.
This upload comes at a great time! A couple of friends of mine are having trouble at their virtual table. I posted this video in our general TTRPG Discord. Hopefully they will use your guidance to evolve into more robust players, and generally, people. On a personal note: It has been definitely awkward being that guy who brings up any issues at the table. However I can confidently say that my co-players and I are even closer than we were before. Not only knowing that a meeting area is *actually* safe to be vulnerable/honest but also that you'll be genuinely listened to is core for long lasting friendships and cohesive teamwork, at least in my personal opinion. Keep up the great work, Seth!
Over 30 years of Game mastering and this has never happened to me, but I've experienced unhappy players just bottling up their frustrations until they leave the game as a result, instead of trying to talk to the group. Most players have had no issues communicating their frustrations openly and respectfully at the table however.
Same here - although "communicating their frustrations openly and respectfully at the table" has occasionally looked more like "throwing dice and/or pizza at each other" in my experience. Although to be fair, there were some out-of-game infidelity issues involved with the pizza incident, and we were all much younger then.
There was also the one guy who stole the GM's cat rather than talk to him about the way he was mistreating the animal. Still scratching my head about that one as to who was in the wrong. Both of them, maybe?
@@richmcgee434 Wtf kinda groups you got lmao
Definitely good stuff to keep in mind. Thankfully the closest my group gets to this is asking one another to if they think someone else was enjoying their time, or asking another to gauge how someone else is feeling. I.E. our DM knows one player in the group less than the others do, so he'll often ask me if that player's enjoying a particular aspect of the game b/c I know his reactions better. Or if I notice someone at the table acting negatively to my roleplay, I might ask some of the others if I was over-stepping or if they noticed a reaction so I can actually talk/apologize to that person with us becoming less likely to argue. The key really is to talk to each other and solve problems within the group as a group.
This might be Seth's best video advice ever. Seen this far too many times and also had a group break due to people communicating by DM instead of with eachother.
There are three... two and a half kinds of people that always resort to asking the GM to speak on their behalf.
1: Introverts who avoid confrontation either out of fear of other people getting angry or fear of their own poor oration skills.
2: Snakes in the grass who are more interested in trying to get other players 'in trouble' than actually resolving the issue.
3: People unsure of themselves and are looking for validation from the GM before they pursue these complaints. I count this as a half as this is a pretty human thing. They want to make sure that their issue is valid and they aren't blowing it out of proportion. They might also talk to the other players about something the GM is doing before confronting the GM about it, just to make sure they aren't exaggerating the problem.
I am #3. I learned a long time ago to stop saying "Can you talk to them for me" and start asking "Am I wrong to feel like they are being jerks?" I want a third party to make sure I am not making a mountain out of a molehill.
Thank you, Seth, and I really wish these kind of videos had been available when we where young. On the other hand I find that youngsters today are much better at social and interpersonal dynamics, maybe because we are more involved with them, but I think it's mainly because they have rich access to verbal communication from non-authoritan athority persons, combined with the older generations involvement in hobby-activities, like sport, roleplaying, etc.
I like how you can take a serious topic and present it with a healthy amount of humor, so that it no longer seems so inevitable))
way to go, Seth))
The Kevin bit definitely got me smiling, that was a turn I did not expect and it was great!
I do also like the video, it certainly brings up good points and I can see myself a bit in these roles. Whenever I usually have a problem I tend to try to reach out to people I feel most comfortable with to first establish "Is this just me or..." and if it ends up being just me, then I take it from there, either take it further or I just leave the group like Kevin if everyone else is enjoying it the way it is.
This is how most big arguments start, if not handled correctly. If every player at the table has 2 or 3 small issues. I don't argue with my players, if someone has an issue I listen to them and I make my decision. I had a buddy a" rules lawyer "that moved away for while, when he came back he couldn't stand the litigation process had been eliminated from the game. I'm not a tyrant, but to let 1 player high jack the run, can ruin the run for everyone. He started to storm off, but when he realized we were going to keep playing with out him. He wanted to sit back down and argue. I told him I would call him when we finished, and I did. And we had an hour long discussion of what he wanted, and what I was open to. Afterwards we reached an understanding, and he played in the next game. Some people love to argue, some people are bullies, and some people are bullies playing the victim. Just remember everybody is there to have fun. Seth you make a great point. I enjoyed the episode, do some more characters.
Video idea: How to get wildly different PCs to work together.
For example, say I have a Cop and a Rockerboy who led riots in the same Cyberpunk party. Or a detective and a bootlegger in the same CoC party.
Short of banning PvP, banning certain roles or the GM forcing them to work together, what steps can be taken to ensure they at least play together without ripping their throats out, literally or figuratively? I don't want them to 100% cooperate, they should be distrustful of each other if it makes sense for the story (PC rivalry is fine. In fact, that could be the video topic: how to handle rival PCs)
Many thanks for your videos, Seth! Got me into tabletop when there was nothing to do in the pandemic
Providing the campaign doesn't have a pre-determined theme (such as, "You're all pirates," or, "You're all in a travelling circus together") there's a few methods.
PC Organizations, such as they all belong to a club or guild, which means these wildly different characters have this shared connection. I'm a big fan of Investigator Organizations in Call of Cthulhu.
Shared backstory. Before one was a Rockerboy and the other a Cop, they grew up together, or served time or were in the military together, or something that bonded them despite their lives going separate directions. Traveller uses this, where each PC has a shared backstory experience with at least 2 other PCs.
Shared or intertwined goal. If this is going to be a campaign with a long-running story, then you introduce it early as to why they should work together to reach their goals (eliminate a shared threat, assist a shared friend, both are framed for some crime and have to prove their innocence, one wants to find the badguy to arrest them while the other wants to reclaim some item the badguys has, etc.). Once the goal is achieved, if the campaign is still going with these characters, either a new goal should be introduced or the players will need to take an active role in deciding why they're still adventuring together despite their differences. Bringing them together for the initial shared goal is easy. But after that it's often best that the players help determine why they're still together.
@@SSkorkowsky Thanks a lot for the insight and rapid response, Seth!
This was perfect, it really helped me be able to process my emotions regarding my own experiences of this.
Ah man, i remember calling for an intermediary one time in a game group.
I was the Referee, and my friends Girlfriend (with whom I was acquainted but not actual friends with) would regularly make strange attempts to bond by “jokingly/ all in good humor” take a jab at a characteristic of my personal lifestyle. This went on for a few years and while it didn’t initially bother me, it did wane on me, it definitely bothered members of the group. In spite of myself and other people around dropping subtle hints that what she was doing wasn’t funny, she wouldn’t get a hint.
After one session, i decided to explain to my friend
“Look, i am aware that she feels like this is a way to bond and all, but I feel like i am going to just openly chew her out about it if she does it one more time. I am done hearing it, it wasn’t funny then and it isn’t funny now.”
I asked him to relay that message so I wouldn’t make a scene during the next session.
That was a situation where an intermediary was appropriate for myself. Going out of my way to communicate with her “could” have been done, but it wasn’t really something that i ever really lost sleep about, or even thought about much tbh. I only really thought about it because I mentally decided to call her out in front of the group as it happened.
“Did she ever stop?”
Yeah
I love that Kevin sounds like Patrick Warburton! Hope to see more of him in future
I like how Seth got scared when Kevin speaked to him, since he didn't notice that Kevin was still in the same room...
Never give advice someone is not open to hearing, never enmesh one person's boundaries with another's, and always try to be kind.
I can see why grown-up players would do this: in a way, like many similar "meta" problems in the RPG group, the idea has been bundled into decades of the baggage of the game-master being described in well-meaning advice and rule-books as the group's "referee" and "organizer" - and, sadly, a lot of workplaces are run that way, too, with the manager being tasked with refereeing employee conflicts because the workplace culture works on the assumption that employees can't be trusted to sort out their own problems - and some families operate on this sort of authoritarian structure, where the "head of the household" is expected to keep the entire family in order, and make decrees that will be the "final word" on these little conflicts! And naturally, it can carry over into role-playing groups that operate the same way, until breaking apart, and sending players with assertiveness problems to your group to carry on the cycle, with the encouragement of game writers who talk about your role as if managing player conflicts for them is a normal part of your job!
That is, I think this sort of thing becomes a sort of "learned helplessness", reinforced by certain management styles, and encouraged by some gaming books and advice.
It doesn't help that a lot of gamers -especially older ones - have a stereotypical gamer's awkward social skills, and play that socially-awkward role to the hilt!
Of course, I think most of us take the description of "referee" to mean that GMs are there to make a final decision on interpretation of the rules, rather than to act like some sort of translator and diplomat between players who cannot or will not communicate directly, but that's a bit beside the point: well-meaning game writers tend to saddle GMs with a whole lot of responsibilities over the game, from buying snacks to providing scheduling and transportation solutions for everyone to shouldering most of the responsibility for entertaining the group to fixing broken rules to playing a game of Diplomats & Therapists with hostile group members!
When that runs head-long against bad social habits among players....
Determining if someone is just venting is one of the first things to do, in many aspects of life, not just gaming. It can be tricky however, since a lot of people who are venting, aren't always ready do admit that's all it is.
Aw, Mike came around to actually wanting to stick around to listen to stories. :)
The skit subplots are the best.
Great video! I've found myself asking the DM or being asked about other players as the DM before, food for thought.
I've had 2 players who felt unacknowledged, but honestly, they were. They gave input and ideas that the group rejected. They would create drama when their idea wasn't used. They objected when other ideas that weren't theirs were preferred. They demanded items or hoarded treasure to then not use said items. Both made demands upon the group that were unacceptable. Both are no longer welcome.
I've also been a player at tables where obnoxious players hog the spotlight, steamrolling others simply because they can. They continue until a DM steps in, which in some cases, never happens. The very first table my youngest played at was one such table, and we never returned to that one.
I've also had quiet players who needed support to get their ideas across. This I certainly can help with.
The trick, I've found, is to try and catch these situations live - during play - so that they can be addressed without resentment. Some who are quiet are embarrassed to step up, and are even more embarrassed when someone steps up for them. In these cases, it is sometimes necessary to encourage the quiet players to speak up, knowing that they will have your support to do so. If they still cannot, it is sometimes necessary to address issues based on how you perceive them as DM.
Players who get defensive whenever they receive criticism are really the basis behind the problem. When communication means a fight will break out, quiet players with issues will refuse to speak up. It usually ends with the quiet players quitting...usually over and over.
Let's also talk about "seeing the players as children" - act childish, get treated like a child. Players who bully others, demand their points of view supersede all others, and who refuse to abide by rules or agreements are acting in an immature manner. Sometimes, you gotta call this out.
Something similar that happened in my group is, I had a player complain that he couldn't really roleplay because he couldn't get a word in and therefore his he couldn't use his background. It was really difficult to tell him that he just needed to speak up more because no one was talking over him. Hell it was their first campaign so there was tons of silence. Good times
As GM I find there are times when everyone is very spontaneous with comments and ideas and times when I need to say "Susie, Is that what you're going to do too?" Because she hasn't said a thing the entire time and I want to know that she's on board and engaged
Great video and topic to cover!
I’ve made this mistake before on the side of the player.
Man, I needed this video like two years ago, and it's great that it's around now for everyone else. We figured out that people had to actually speak to each other instead of through the DM or a trusted player, and while it ended up being a case of a player that wasn't particularly conducive to group cohesion, it's been learned for the next time around and we were able to keep an extra player in these trying times.
Great video. Thank you for taking this on and I think your advice is spot on. Also, I like that you threw in that aspect that a GM is not some sort of authority figure over the players outside of the context of game mechanics -- but in fact is their peer. This should be common sense, but I think some GMs get a bit carried away, which can lead into socially destructive territory.
It is tough though. I do recall one incident a couple years back where a player approached me to complain about another player (both were relatively new players to my rotating campaign game) and joined at the same time. At first, they got along fine and they seemed to be almost a team within the team, so I was surprised when one of them later approached me about issues they were having with the other player. I felt that it was his responsibility to approach the other player and work it out and suggested that he do so by just explaining his feelings. But not all players are confident enough to do that. The complaining player said he would do so and I didn't hear anything more about it; so assumed it had been worked out. I'm not sure if the complaining player ever did, but eventually that player just up and quit a few months later. And several months after that, I finally ended up removing the other player in question -- the very first time that I had ever done this in decades of gaming.
In hindsight, I felt that I should have interceded, not as an authority figure, by as a facilitator, perhaps by scheduling an airing out session prior to that session's game, not calling anyone out in particular, but just letting anyone bring out any grievances, thoughts, suggestions, or ideas. I do regret not doing anything at the time, because it led to someone having bad enough feelings that they just quit, and it quite likely allowed the others player's negative tendencies to go unchecked and escalate to the point where he had to go. One can never be certain, but had I interceded by just facilitating a group session, it might have changed that outcome for both. Hindsight is 20/20 but on retrospect, I felt I could have done better; so lesson learned.
As things like this are often disregarded as _not part of TTRPGs,_ it does come up as a concern a whole lot. Just basic interpersonal communication skills -- they aren't entirely common and they certainly aren't taught in public school... at least not in the US.
I try never to be a middleman. If someone comes to me and asks me to talk to someone else on their behalf, I'll either facilitate the people talking to each other and step back (in an example like the video, I'd broach the subject while _everyone_ was at the table and hand it off so Kevin wasn't using me as an authority figure). Or, I will refrain from agreeing at all and instead talk to the person as a sort of "devil's advocate" while also encouraging them to speak to the others directly. Because my personal philosophy is that 1. Problems almost never just go away on their own and you need to address them directly. 2. If you rely on someone else to solve it for you, you might not get the result you want. And 3. It's way better to just be upfront and direct with people because for me that has always mitigated "drama" and misunderstandings that come from indirectness or relying on passing messages through someone else.
A good 90% or more of instances of people saying they have some problem with their gaming group or GM or a certain player come down to "talk to the person." Just some good ol' communication does wonders. And keep in mind, I say this as an introvert with his own fair share of social anxiety. I am way more comfortable if I know where I stand with people than if I'm trying to guess based on rumors and hints and third-hand information.
Finally! Another Kevin episode!
Agreed.
Phew! Finally, the rest of that story about the turtle with the hat. It was a long time coming, but it was worth the wait.
Dang, I thought we were finally going to get the back story of the Turtle... Friends. Then I remembered that was over on Puffin Forest.
The whole mindset of Gamemaster-As-Dictator is a major contributing factor to this and so many other issues.
@@DabroodThompson imo thats kind of an extension of the issue i mentioned, but yeah, it's a problem for sure. i don't think it's intentional so much as like, a subconscious bias or smth
That only goes for Dungeon Masters
Wow. I had no idea how much I needed to hear this. What a weight off my shoulders! I will definitely be sharing this with my players!
I love your channel. It’s intelligent, witty, and I love your anti- P vs GM mindset! I’ve been watching your videos for a while now, and today I finally gave in and made an account so that I could subscribe.
I appreciate this. I've seen too many videos saying it's my job to deal with social issues, when I too play D&D because I'm bad at social interaction. There's a reason I don't want kids.
I like to think that Kevin has been here all these years right from the beginning, but stuck behind the camera.
Dude, I swear you're psychic. Thanks, this is the video I needed right now.
Every day I hear "Hello internet! Seth Skorkowsky" is a good day
"Oh him? That's my other player, Kevin! Uh-huh, been with us the whole time!"
Amazingly well presented. That’s why you are the content winner, Seth!
Great advice! Given the RPG contract the GM does however have a leadership role (as he is most invested) also outside the game universe. He can help mediate a difficult conversation between the players. I recommend leading an evaluation of the game and of the meta-game. What do you think works best? What could improve it most? and hearing all. Then the Kevin during the meta-game evaluation can voice that him being listened to would help the most. Perhaps a video about evaluating?
Kevin sounds like Jeff Hays' impersonating Patrick Warburton as Carl in Dungeon Crawler Carl.
I dig it lol
Todd... I've been here the whole time.
I will not get tired of praising your acting talent.
Hey Seth! Just wanted to tell that thanks to your videos, I finally took the plunge and played my first CoC game yesterday. I had an absolute blast with it. I was lucky enough to find a group of veterans of the game on roll20 and we played The Lightless Beacon as a celebration of the 40th anniversary of CoC. I didn't want to be the clunker on this party of seasoned players so I watched your CoC Overview series again. Happy to say I at least didn't hinder the other investigators (I didn't come up with any brilliant plans either, but hey, they had a lot of fun, too!)
Awesome to hear that you enjoyed it. Welcome to Call of Cthulhu. I hope your next adventure goes even better.
Thanks for discussing this! Always nice to have thought this through prior to an issue coming up so we have an idea of how to steer through it.
This should be a compulsory training video for every workplace environment
I hope we’ll see Kevin again… he could be the Kenny (South Park) of this group.
Our group mostlu had a flair for speaking between themselves in character. Not too much table talk unless it was in the form of a joke or non advantage having statement.
This is probably the best video I've seen on the subject. Great job, sir.
The Kevin problem was dealt with........ .
I too have the useless Invisibility super power unless I make a lot of noise...., Kevin is the glue that binds the universe together.... unless one is Todd.
I love the Patrick Warbuton addition to the gang
It took me until the last minute, but I figured it out! Another accent from venture bros!!!! 😁😁😁
Go Team Venture.
Kevin has a point. They steamroller him so much that he's never been in a video before. Also, Todd doesn't even know he exists...and Todd was actually GM for an adventure.
Kevin's actually been part of seth's cast the entire time
Quit a group after the DM couldn't keep his own game straight and had to co-opt mine despite I had already established the character I was running in his was banished from the world my game was set on into the one his was set on.
That character only ended up like that after he messed up his introductory adventure.
Ultimate lesson is if your introductory adventures isn't important then don't involve any of the character's back stories in that introduction because if you do that location IS important!
Seth should start a youtube serie just with the guys chattering and doing soft sketches. Could listen for hours to that stuff.
This is good advice for life, not just D&D.
Phineas & Ferb Zebra: Love the beard, Kevin!
If we're getting the final answer to the story about the turtle in the little blue beanie, I will die a happy man.
Also, when Kevin appeared, I literally jumped. We got ourselves an "Adam from Torchwood" here.
The main time I've spoken to a GM about this sort of thing is to get their opinion first to see if I'm the one misinterpreting it.
Communication is key. This is why I find most "safety" tools redundant. Good old communication is usually the best tool to prevent or mitigate a social problem. I don't think there is much a of a need to reinvent the wheel. When people sit on even a minor annoyance it will almost always snowball into resentment or even animosity. To me? A lot of those tools seem to bend over backwards to avoid or postpone talking about a problem and facilitate melodrama instead of group resolution.
"Safety" tools are for helping communication.
Ahahahah great Patrick Warburton impression