Radical Islam: This is Jihad, Hezbollah, the Taliban, Hamas. Their ideology is an extreme religion and they believe that the Jews and Christians must be destroyed for their very existence and their religion. The false politics they spread is so twisted. And they certainly succeeded in fooling the entire Western world. They laugh in your face. Islam will not change its ways. I wonder how many innocents will be murdered until the West, the campuses and the media understand. They create wars and spread images to the West that in every war there has been in the world, these are shocking sights with images that are hard not to evoke empathy, but no one understands that they don't really care about the Palestinians, they are a tool for them as long as that is what will lead them to their goals. Those brainwashed pro-Palestinians who feed on false information like this guy who spoke without any facts and only cared about twisting the truth. Otherwise, how will you explain that there are still Muslims living in Israel who have the option of leaving if they were under an occupying country? The 7/10 is a do not return to Israel point, what does it mean? that no enemy should ever be given the feeling that peace can be believed when he declares that he would do it again, again, and again. If you care about the Palestinians, you will protest against Hamas and their cowardly leaders who sit in Qatar in wealth and comfort at the expense of their citizens who they really do not care about.
The debate ended as soon as the sex worker guy tried to argue that Israel targeted hospitals and schools. You can't trust anything else he says after he tries to trick you like that. The other guy just calmly pointed out that Hamas fires rockets from those locations... but he should have claimed victory at that point. The sex writer also complained of inequality in the IDF because non-jews can't serve. Seriously? Israel let some non-jews work in Israel and they gathered intelligence for hamas. You think they should let non-jews work in the military? The sex worker, like other anti-israel types, is either a trickster or an idiot. In this case, trickster.
This moderator was horrible. I've just watched through the first big chunk of the debate and after the pro-Palistine side finished every time the moderator gives him over-the-top compliments about what he's said but when the pro-Israel side finishes every time there's nothing, crickets or an 'okay'. How is this meant to look fair when the moderator clearly and obviously favors one side over the other?
I wonder what it will take for someone to address the materialist assumption made by Halwani and other pro-Palestinians make. It’s not about access to resources or power imbalances. It’s about bad ideas vs good ideas. Halwani: “[Oct 7] arose out of desperation.” Please. It arose from a sickness caused by Islamic ideology.
Said the Side that embraces colonialism, Land theft , constant lying , Facism and genocide . I'm sorry but people resisting the Israeli Nazi state is a) legal and b) in Line with Universal human values of Justice and Freedom. Materialism has nothing to do with the Situation If you i.e. the Palestinians are being robbed and murdered on a daily Basis for a hundred years . Its good vs Bad ideas . Sure . If your Side would be honest about their ideas when speaking another language then Hebrew we May even Had a good faith Debate. But of course that is Not possible So its Just Israeli and Zionist Pathological lying . A single Daniella Weiz Interview on Israeli TV disproves EVERY SINGLE ZIONIST COMMENT ON THIS VIDEO OR ANOTHER . And the only way around this is by acting as If this is Not Happening. Israel is a bunch of Karens with a nuke .
They seem to be doing okay, still more powerful than those pesky Arab states that gang up and attack from time to time. It must be the will of Allah that the Jews are the toughest in the neighborhood.
wtf are wrong with you? should have picked argentine over israel? how is it possible to be this clueless? palestinian as a people and a "state" was invented in the 60s, wile israel have been the Jews homeland for the last 3000 years. jews are the historical owners of the land, wile the so-called Palestinians are the intruders. there is no one that have the rights to be in israel over the jews. the jews was happy to share the land with the arabs, and those that dont like them being there can go somewhere else
Radical Islam: This is Jihad, Hezbollah, the Taliban, Hamas. Their ideology is an extreme religion and they believe that the Jews and Christians must be destroyed for their very existence and their religion. The false politics they spread is so twisted. And they certainly succeeded in fooling the entire Western world. They laugh in your face. Islam will not change its ways. I wonder how many innocents will be murdered until the West, the campuses and the media understand. They create wars and spread images to the West that in every war there has been in the world, these are shocking sights with images that are hard not to evoke empathy, but no one understands that they don't really care about the Palestinians, they are a tool for them as long as that is what will lead them to their goals. Those brainwashed pro-Palestinians who feed on false information like this guy who spoke without any facts and only cared about twisting the truth. Otherwise, how will you explain that there are still Muslims living in Israel who have the option of leaving if they were under an occupying country? The 7/10 is a do not return to Israel point, what does it mean? that no enemy should ever be given the feeling that peace can be believed when he declares that he would do it again, again, and again. If you care about the Palestinians, you will protest against Hamas and their cowardly leaders who sit in Qatar in wealth and comfort at the expense of their citizens who they really do not care about.
7:10 wow. The sex expert is contorting himself to try out some strange positions. Simultaneously arguing the war is unjust because Israel has so much more military might than Hamas (a stupid argument because Israel is being attacked by Iran and Hezbollah and the houthis, and its other enemies will jump in if think they can finally win this time) AND arguing that it's unjust because Hamas cannot be entirely defeated. How you try to argue Israel has too much might and also not enough might?
You seem obsessed with sex. The argument is that Israel continues to occupy these territories and that is the basis of the resistance and why Israel must make the case for peace rather than exploit their advantageous relationship with the US. These discussions are largely academic though as even Israelis are reading the tea leaves and can sense the end of the Jewish state.
@@SuperKripke how strong is your faith? For 20 years those who espouse your medieval mormonism have been saying the end of Israel would be during this decade. I dare you to say whether you agree with them that the Holy Quran predicts the end of Israel during this current decade. A prediction without a timeline is meaningless. You are due for a win. You have attacked them so many times and had your ass handed to you, it wouldn't make sense for Allah to keep letting the jews humiliate you for another 75 years. Are you concerned Israel's dominance might shake your faith? You need to *have* faith before it can be shaken. Have enough faith to be specific and say whether your prediction will come true before the end of this decade.
@@thegratefuldeb2269 You seem blind to the realities on the ground. Israel will face great difficulties in getting more young Jews to migrate given the prospect of a forever war and Israel's plummeting standing in the world, especially after a full accounting of the genocide in Gaza is complete. This is compounded by the economic and military failures that the country has seen. The path forward is one away from the extremism of settler politics and peace with the Palestinians. The alternatives for the Israelis will be even more horrific than we could imagine.
@@SuperKripke i want peace with the Palestinians as so most Israelis. and your flat out wrong. antisemitism is becoming intolerable in the US and Jews are looking to leave. my family included. we are literally being driven to Israel. you're just wrong.
@@JupiterFredNone . Just Zionists living in their Bubble projecting their own pathological lying on Others . Oppenheimer is a Classic example of Cherry picked History, muddled timelines and straight Up Lies ( "Gaza isn't occupied" being the Most important one in this regard ) we are so accustomed .
For example (1) that Hamas is becoming moderate and that some of the Hamas leadership feel ashamed of their charter. (2) That Masha Gessen has compared Gaza to “a ghetto”. Like a vulgar propagandist, she has compared Gaza to “the Warsaw Ghetto”, not just “a ghetto”. (She has angered the Germans and has lost all her credibility because of that). (3) That most Palestinians are willing to accept a Jewish state or the presence of Jews in a shared state. (4) That Arafat walked away from the 2000 camp David negociation because Ehud Barak seemed hesitant. Etc. Etc.
@@warmperson2007 @warmperson2007 ah ... Facism . How much Reality becomes warped If everything must serve the Goal of "Feeling good " while murdering civilians on a daily Basis . Before the 7th October . So 1) He doesn't say that Hamas is becoming moderate Just that they modified Charter which is true in contrary to the Likud Charter that still includes the "river to the sea " reference . 2) the Word isn't Ghetto . Its concentration Camp . And now death Camp . And Masha Gessen Just followed the example of a number of rightwing Israeli historians and Holocaust Scientists. And she compared the "war" with the Liquidation of the Warsaw Ghetto . Don't be lazy in your Propaganda get at least the Fake "outrage" right . 3) the Most Palestinians under Israeli Rules have No rights and live under Military rule in the West Bank . I really don't Care If you can't Count or Just Imagine 5,3 Million people Out of existence . To act as If Israel has even tried to govern the ~7,5 Million Palestinians that live in the occupied territories fairly over the Last 6 decades is a Joke and cynicly to , still, try to peddle the fairy Tale of an "inclusive" and "tolerant" Israel . We can read Israeli laws and UN Reports . To Project your Wish to murder the indigenous people on them while they and their supporters have Said for decades that a one state solution ala South Africa is probably the best solution in the Long Run mostly because Israel would be liable to pay reparations for the Nakba and six decades of illegal occupation. Thats Not gonna Happen If the jewish Israeli Side keeps voting in more and more jewish Nazis Like Smotrich and Ben Gvir. Not that Netanyahu and His Likud is any better . And Einstein and Arendt compared it with the NSDAP . I agree . 4) He didnt say that Arafat walked "away" From the Oslo accords but that Arafat refused His final Signatur because Israel was moving more and more Settlers thugs into the West Bank , which is a war crime , and thus Rendering the Oslo accords a Farce . Because Israel couldnt be bothered to uphold even a Bantustan solution Like Oslo . And the facist Israeli right aka the Kahanists and their Likud Allies murdered Rabin and have been in Power ever since . Look . I get it . You have been told all your Life that "Jews were Always the victims" and the "Holocaust justifies/neccesitates the existence of Israel " . Which are Lies . And explicitly rejected by Israels founding fathers Like Ben Gurion and Jabotinsky who Always spoke and wrote about a colonial Project. And your Israeli Press is extremely far on the right and the vile and abhorrent language used to describe the "other" i.e. the native Palestinians and its reflected in "pro Israel " comments and Statements Made around the world in the Last forty years . The only difference now is that the Rest of the Planet is actually listen to what you people say Out loud . And No Genocide is Not okay . Cutting of water and food is a war crime . Moving in Settlers because "they wanna See the sea " is a war crime . Carpet bombing civilians and attacking hospitals is a war crime . And to demand that Israel respects the laws of war isn't antisemitic .
I think it's regrettable that the debate devolved into a discussion of who has the moral upper hand in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in general. It started out with the appropriate framing, and then became something quite different. I'd have liked to see Mark and Raja focus in on the requirements under just war theory. Some discussion of the conflict was necessary because Raja pointed to the blockade of Gaza as a reason to doubt that Israel was acting in self-defense, but I think the much more relevant questions relate to the ethics of Israel's conduct during the war itself. I really wanted to see a focus on the principles of proportionality and discrimination because the way I read most of the criticism of the Gaza War, it's directed towards Israel's military strikes on nominally protected structures (hospitals, schools, etc). Ultimately, however, most of these are going to be empirical questions, and philosophers are not going to be able to get to the truth on most of what matters here. Raja made some comments that were quite strange, and I was surprised to hear them from somebody who appears to be an otherwise serious and sober-minded person. The suggestion that Israel should have relied on the ICC to prosecute Hamas officials for war crimes is almost laughable. How would that have happened? Without a military defeat of Hamas, there's simply no way to enforce an arrest warrant. You think Qatar is going to do it? Again, laughable. Also, the claim that Hamas isn't antisemitic is turning reality on its head to such a degree it's very difficult to even engage with. What does he think was happening on Oct 7? It was quite obviously an attack on Israeli Jews. Hamas has said, openly and repeatedly, that it aims at the annihilation of Israel and Jews in general. If that's not antisemitic, I don't know what is.
What was happening before october 7th? The settlers blatantly attacking arabs, the vilification of arabs in israeli text books, removal of the history of nakba, netanyahu sayin this war is his crusade and a win for israel is a win for all judeo christians worldwide. Look at the broader picture instead of just screaming khamassss, its gettin real pathetic nowadays. It's funny how only the Palestinians get accused of anti semetism whilst it's completely acceptable in israel proper so much so that even arab israelis over there are constantly vilified even in the Knesset.
I love the BIAV podcast, and generally find Mark's positions persuasive, but his arguments here are not convincing. His unwillingness to address concrete historical fact when it was raised in his assessment of the justness of the war, as if Oct. 7 were some kind of lone event in world history, remained a serious problem throughout. Halwani's more overt emotionality shouldn't distract us from the reality that his arguments were considerably more grounded in political and juridical fact, while Oppenheimer's basic appeal (delivered soberly) rested on emotion and a handful of whataboutist generalizations. I was really hoping to have some of my assumptions about the matter overturned, but there just wasn't much at all convincing here. I'm already steeped in the history. If Mark has a substantive case, he should've made it.
The sex expert argues that Israel has no right to defend itself against hamas because of the blockade. He says it constitutes occupation. But the blockade was put in place by Egypt and Israel in 2007 in response to Hamas winning an election after running on a platform about destroying israel. So the argument is that Israel is not allowed to defend itself because Israel tried to defend itself.
there is nothing remotely like that in the platform hamas ran on. hamas's participation in that election was widely understood to be a gesture of moderation at the time and anyone interested in seeing an end to violent extremism would have welcomed it. hamas as a precondition for contesting the election had halted violence and its platform affirmed political pluralism within palestinian civil society. hamas also affirmed that it would accept any settlement negotiated between israel and the palestinian authority concerning a two state settlement provided it were put to a referendum and passed by a majority of the palestinian electorate. it sounds like you've done exactly zero reading on the history in question. moreover, imposing collective punishment on a civilian population--a majority of whom in this case were children--in retaliation for an unwelcome electoral outcome is a violation of international law. hell isn't hot enough for the israeli officials who devised and implemented that policy to "put the palestinians on a diet", which forbade entry of a laundry list of basic goods including chocolate and children's toys, and delivered a grievous blow to the already suffocating economy in gaza.
@@meshzzizk it's dangerous to do what you're doing, because you get detached from reality. It's better to tell a blatant lie than to mislead with bits of truth. You're careful word choice, "gesture of moderation" exposes the way you're a consciously trying to mislead people. You make it sound as if Fatah was extreme and Hamas was more moderate. People watching this debate are probably informed enough at least to know Hamas shamed fatah for compromising too much with israel. The "gesture of moderation" was when they de-emphasized the destruction of Israel for only one week before the election to improve their odds. But it was still in there Charter. It's worth a few seconds to search Google and review the insane things in the Hamas charter. Anyone reading this who is interested can search for: hamas, original charter, first 12 articles
@@meshzzizkanyone who doubts that Hamas is all about destroying Israel can Google it's charter. But nobody doubts that. What you're referring to is the way they changed their messaging 2 weeks before the election. You terrorists lie so often you lose your sense of what's plausible and say dumb stuff people can see right through.
Halwani condemns 10/7 in the sense that he says things like "I condemn those terrible atrocities." Ok, that sounds good... until you hear more. Then you hear it likened to a bound captive man who manages to get one hand free and scratch his oppressor's child with his fingernail out of completely understandable anger. Tell me that doesn't minimize these atrocities. Indeed, everything he says about the context of the attacks seems intended to minimize their evil. It was an act of desperation. It was a response to oppression. The total picture you get from listening to it is that it's wrong-ish, but who can really blame them? It's like the father of three molested girls lunging at Larry Nasser in court: wrong... but understandable.
@@noahghost4476 I don't think he thinks it's ok, but it's clear that our sympathy isn't supposed to be with the child in this example, or at least 99% of it isn't.
@@Micro-Digressionsthat's a genius username! That's cool. I just reviewed it again 5:18 and the analogy really is about a guy being restrained against his will and he responds by hurting his oppressor's child, not because it would somehow help him get free but just because he had the opportunity. Seems like the reason the analogy is so weird is because he's trying to justify what happened at that music festival. In other words, if there are zero circumstances where you would retaliate against someone by hurting their child..... then you might be too decent to ever understand the sensibilities of this sex worker guy.
Raja's opening statement is already so pathetic. 👎🏼 It just consists of the usual propaganda talking points of the anti-Israel lobby; nothing novel about it.😡 Mark's opening statement on the other hand is way more realistic, factual, and acceptable. 👌🏼💪🏼✌🏼👏🏼
"Knives inside vaginas" and "Gaza civilian workers gave Intel to hamas on who to target" are both factually false, debunked by israels own investigation and reporting, including Shin Bet. Rajas opening statement includes assessment of just war, along with the multitude of ways israel has not met those criteria, including by statements from international human rights orgs, UN rapporteurs, etc.
That's not true. He laid things out eloquently that many audiences rarely hear. How often do you about nasser for example. Meanwhile his interlocutor pretty much repeated the talking points we have heard time and time again
The other party, Oppenheimer, is not very well informed about the Arab Israeli/Palestinian Israeli conflict. You should have invited someone who is more informed about this conflict to counter the affirmative.
For example, Mosab Hasan Youssef, the son of one of Hamas’ founders, turned pro Israel militant. He knows from the inside what Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank, really think about Israel and the Jews.
I'm impressed with Raj's patience in this debate. It's crazy that the debate is framed as though Israel has always existed, and as though the Palestinians have always simply been belligerent neighbors trying to conquer it. And it's crazy to act like Israel is this weak, easily bullied state, surrounded by powerful enemies. No, actually, the Israelis seized the land from the Palestinians in the first place, with the support of powerful Western nations. And they are massively more powerful than the Palestinians, again due to the support of powerful Western nations. I don't see how we can have a meaningful discussion about how to move forward, if we don't have these basic facts of the situation firmly in view.
I don't understand how educated people use absolute terms like "kicked out" while most of them left because of the war. Also ignoring the fact that Hamas knew that israel is a trigger happy state and which is why they did what they did. It took 4 years to release one hostage, and he expects Israel to do it calmly for 250...
Radical Islam: This is Jihad, Hezbollah, the Taliban, Hamas. Their ideology is an extreme religion and they believe that the Jews and Christians must be destroyed for their very existence and their religion. The false politics they spread is so twisted. And they certainly succeeded in fooling the entire Western world. They laugh in your face. Islam will not change its ways. I wonder how many innocents will be murdered until the West, the campuses and the media understand. They create wars and spread images to the West that in every war there has been in the world, these are shocking sights with images that are hard not to evoke empathy, but no one understands that they don't really care about the Palestinians, they are a tool for them as long as that is what will lead them to their goals. Those brainwashed pro-Palestinians who feed on false information like this guy who spoke without any facts and only cared about twisting the truth. Otherwise, how will you explain that there are still Muslims living in Israel who have the option of leaving if they were under an occupying country? The 7/10 is a do not return to Israel point, what does it mean? that no enemy should ever be given the feeling that peace can be believed when he declares that he would do it again, again, and again. If you care about the Palestinians, you will protest against Hamas and their cowardly leaders who sit in Qatar in wealth and comfort at the expense of their citizens who they really do not care about.
God spoke fifty sentences to me from above over nine years time. His first nine sentences were 8.4.2015 in the morning. Since then I have told and timestamped many prescient visions that came true. The last sentence God spoke to me from above to my ear was four years ago after many months. He said, You are Princess Messenger of God. In Aramaic, it's Amira Malaka Elah
I believe He may have spoken more than 50 sentences to you. I hope your son is staying safe and proud. When he frustrates you, you always remain patient with him. Am Yisrael Chai ❤
He talked about lebonan, everyone should also listen to Brigitte Gabriel who talks about how Christian in Lebanon, who were being sl4ught3red by those Palestinian refugees, begged Israel to come and save them. Israel didn’t want to go to war but the Christians asked them to be saved. Many Christian Lebanese talk about it. Israel saved many of them and everyone injured was also brought to Israeli hospitals to have life saving surgeries.
Islam requires apartheid. (see chapter 9). ❤😂🎉 But you gotta give him credit for his sense of humor when he mentions a Palestinian State "at the end of the tunnel." 8:13
No matter how much we debate this issue, ultimately God will judge the situation and his justice will be supreme. God is never on the side of the oppressors.
This was great. I have been extremely sad about the atrocities on October 7, and the atrocities after October 7. This is the best debate I saw on the situation since October 7. Even though I squarely fall into one of the camps in what I believe, I agree with Mark that the way that this debate serves as a model for other debates is what makes it so good.
Did you not find it odd that after every time the pro-Palestine side finished speaking the moderator gave him numerous compliments about what he had said but every time the pro-Israel side finished, nothing.
This comment was from the mod's other account! Just kidding though, I honestly think it was a mistake and that if it was deliberate he would have tried to be subtle about it.
Somehow the whole debate has gone clearly irrational, and it's nonsensical to actually still believe that everything is sane and good in the state of Israel. Firstly, the argument that the Palestinians have given up their rights to a seperate state is wrong. The mass of countries inside the UN have decided to halve the country and that decision has never been overturned. An empty chair is just that and nothing else. Secondly, what happens to the Negev Bedouin nowadays points to what is wrong inside Israel itself. There Israeli authorities demolish housing whilst not constructing new ones just because there's no road to the settlement, etc. Look it up. Thirdly, the actual old Labour plan to give the Arabs on the Westbank only residency inside the one country of Israel and Jordan citizenship wouldn't fly either because that will cause destabilization of Jordan once again. It's funny in a cruel way that some in Israel deny the Palestinian identity except for one third of the population of Jordan. No-where else in the Middle East the Arabs are Palestinians except Jordan. Some wishful thinking and myth building there too!
@@geertdecoster5301 why didnt jordan and egypt let the west bank and gaza have independence from 48 to 67? Because it's not about statehood. Y'all just want to destroy israel, and you are evil.
1:01:34 no, you have an extensive israeli security apparatus running raids into gaza and and the west bank, arresting thousands of palestinian civilians to hold in "administrative detention" without due process on an indefinite basis. and you have instance after instance after instance of israeli aerial and artillery and sniper massacres directed at civilians inside gaza predicated on flimsy pretexts ("mowing the lawn"). there's a mountain of human rights report literature on this of which mark is apparently unaware or else deliberately excluding from consideration.
Radical Islam: This is Jihad, Hezbollah, the Taliban, Hamas. Their ideology is an extreme religion and they believe that the Jews and Christians must be destroyed for their very existence and their religion. The false politics they spread is so twisted. And they certainly succeeded in fooling the entire Western world. They laugh in your face. Islam will not change its ways. I wonder how many innocents will be murdered until the West, the campuses and the media understand. They create wars and spread images to the West that in every war there has been in the world, these are shocking sights with images that are hard not to evoke empathy, but no one understands that they don't really care about the Palestinians, they are a tool for them as long as that is what will lead them to their goals. Those brainwashed pro-Palestinians who feed on false information like this guy who spoke without any facts and only cared about twisting the truth. Otherwise, how will you explain that there are still Muslims living in Israel who have the option of leaving if they were under an occupying country? The 7/10 is a do not return to Israel point, what does it mean? that no enemy should ever be given the feeling that peace can be believed when he declares that he would do it again, again, and again. If you care about the Palestinians, you will protest against Hamas and their cowardly leaders who sit in Qatar in wealth and comfort at the expense of their citizens who they really do not care about.
That's bs, IDF arrested stabbers, weapon and drug smugglers, Hamas informants and operatives, people who slinged projectiles and Molotov's at cars. Not random civilians as you put it
For more debates like this check out www.youtube.com/@TheRepugnantConclusion
Radical Islam: This is Jihad, Hezbollah, the Taliban, Hamas. Their ideology is an extreme religion and they believe that the Jews and Christians must be destroyed for their very existence and their religion. The false politics they spread is so twisted. And they certainly succeeded in fooling the entire Western world. They laugh in your face. Islam will not change its ways. I wonder how many innocents will be murdered until the West, the campuses and the media understand. They create wars and spread images to the West that in every war there has been in the world, these are shocking sights with images that are hard not to evoke empathy, but no one understands that they don't really care about the Palestinians, they are a tool for them as long as that is what will lead them to their goals. Those brainwashed pro-Palestinians who feed on false information like this guy who spoke without any facts and only cared about twisting the truth. Otherwise, how will you explain that there are still Muslims living in Israel who have the option of leaving if they were under an occupying country? The 7/10 is a do not return to Israel point, what does it mean? that no enemy should ever be given the feeling that peace can be believed when he declares that he would do it again, again, and again. If you care about the Palestinians, you will protest against Hamas and their cowardly leaders who sit in Qatar in wealth and comfort at the expense of their citizens who they really do not care about.
The debate ended as soon as the sex worker guy tried to argue that Israel targeted hospitals and schools. You can't trust anything else he says after he tries to trick you like that. The other guy just calmly pointed out that Hamas fires rockets from those locations... but he should have claimed victory at that point.
The sex writer also complained of inequality in the IDF because non-jews can't serve. Seriously? Israel let some non-jews work in Israel and they gathered intelligence for hamas. You think they should let non-jews work in the military?
The sex worker, like other anti-israel types, is either a trickster or an idiot. In this case, trickster.
This moderator was horrible. I've just watched through the first big chunk of the debate and after the pro-Palistine side finished every time the moderator gives him over-the-top compliments about what he's said but when the pro-Israel side finishes every time there's nothing, crickets or an 'okay'. How is this meant to look fair when the moderator clearly and obviously favors one side over the other?
I was going to point that out, too.
It's funny how blatantly obvious the host and pro-Arab use straw man arguments and chants of support.
I watched the whole Video and Thats not true
55:59 for example
Give him the benefit of the doubt. I agree, but if I tried to mod this I would make mistakes. It could be a mistake. ❤
@@astbast1966you can watch the whole video twice and it will still be true.
I wonder what it will take for someone to address the materialist assumption made by Halwani and other pro-Palestinians make. It’s not about access to resources or power imbalances. It’s about bad ideas vs good ideas. Halwani: “[Oct 7] arose out of desperation.” Please. It arose from a sickness caused by Islamic ideology.
zionist is a bad ideology
It was the result of 60 years of occupation and terrorism.
Said the Side that embraces colonialism, Land theft , constant lying , Facism and genocide . I'm sorry but people resisting the Israeli Nazi state is a) legal and b) in Line with Universal human values of Justice and Freedom. Materialism has nothing to do with the Situation If you i.e. the Palestinians are being robbed and murdered on a daily Basis for a hundred years .
Its good vs Bad ideas . Sure .
If your Side would be honest about their ideas when speaking another language then Hebrew we May even Had a good faith Debate. But of course that is Not possible So its Just Israeli and Zionist Pathological lying .
A single Daniella Weiz Interview on Israeli TV disproves EVERY SINGLE ZIONIST COMMENT ON THIS VIDEO OR ANOTHER .
And the only way around this is by acting as If this is Not Happening.
Israel is a bunch of Karens with a nuke .
L'chaim. Ahava Adonai Ahava Israel Elehenu Adonai
Inform Assad of Syria, yuck
15:32 "Israel finds itself in a tough neighbourhood." Guessing they should have picked Argentine over Palestine then...
They seem to be doing okay, still more powerful than those pesky Arab states that gang up and attack from time to time. It must be the will of Allah that the Jews are the toughest in the neighborhood.
wtf are wrong with you? should have picked argentine over israel? how is it possible to be this clueless? palestinian as a people and a "state" was invented in the 60s, wile israel have been the Jews homeland for the last 3000 years. jews are the historical owners of the land, wile the so-called Palestinians are the intruders. there is no one that have the rights to be in israel over the jews. the jews was happy to share the land with the arabs, and those that dont like them being there can go somewhere else
Radical Islam: This is Jihad, Hezbollah, the Taliban, Hamas. Their ideology is an extreme religion and they believe that the Jews and Christians must be destroyed for their very existence and their religion. The false politics they spread is so twisted. And they certainly succeeded in fooling the entire Western world. They laugh in your face. Islam will not change its ways. I wonder how many innocents will be murdered until the West, the campuses and the media understand. They create wars and spread images to the West that in every war there has been in the world, these are shocking sights with images that are hard not to evoke empathy, but no one understands that they don't really care about the Palestinians, they are a tool for them as long as that is what will lead them to their goals. Those brainwashed pro-Palestinians who feed on false information like this guy who spoke without any facts and only cared about twisting the truth. Otherwise, how will you explain that there are still Muslims living in Israel who have the option of leaving if they were under an occupying country? The 7/10 is a do not return to Israel point, what does it mean? that no enemy should ever be given the feeling that peace can be believed when he declares that he would do it again, again, and again. If you care about the Palestinians, you will protest against Hamas and their cowardly leaders who sit in Qatar in wealth and comfort at the expense of their citizens who they really do not care about.
@@noahghost4476 Hardly given they have the Us as back up. Without US support israel would know it's place.
7:10 wow. The sex expert is contorting himself to try out some strange positions. Simultaneously arguing the war is unjust because Israel has so much more military might than Hamas (a stupid argument because Israel is being attacked by Iran and Hezbollah and the houthis, and its other enemies will jump in if think they can finally win this time) AND arguing that it's unjust because Hamas cannot be entirely defeated. How you try to argue Israel has too much might and also not enough might?
You seem obsessed with sex. The argument is that Israel continues to occupy these territories and that is the basis of the resistance and why Israel must make the case for peace rather than exploit their advantageous relationship with the US.
These discussions are largely academic though as even Israelis are reading the tea leaves and can sense the end of the Jewish state.
@@SuperKripke how strong is your faith? For 20 years those who espouse your medieval mormonism have been saying the end of Israel would be during this decade. I dare you to say whether you agree with them that the Holy Quran predicts the end of Israel during this current decade. A prediction without a timeline is meaningless.
You are due for a win. You have attacked them so many times and had your ass handed to you, it wouldn't make sense for Allah to keep letting the jews humiliate you for another 75 years.
Are you concerned Israel's dominance might shake your faith?
You need to *have* faith before it can be shaken.
Have enough faith to be specific and say whether your prediction will come true before the end of this decade.
@@SuperKripke never gonna happen. its ours abd were gonna stay there.
@@thegratefuldeb2269 You seem blind to the realities on the ground. Israel will face great difficulties in getting more young Jews to migrate given the prospect of a forever war and Israel's plummeting standing in the world, especially after a full accounting of the genocide in Gaza is complete. This is compounded by the economic and military failures that the country has seen.
The path forward is one away from the extremism of settler politics and peace with the Palestinians. The alternatives for the Israelis will be even more horrific than we could imagine.
@@SuperKripke i want peace with the Palestinians as so most Israelis. and your flat out wrong. antisemitism is becoming intolerable in the US and Jews are looking to leave. my family included. we are literally being driven to Israel. you're just wrong.
Raja's argument seems to be based on fantasies.
"Hamas isn't antisemitic" LOLLLL. Hamas is explicit as it gets. read their charter. listen to their speeches.
That was their old charter. Doesn't beat the talmud in terms of absolute vitriol towards the "Goyim", does it?
That raja told so many lies I can hardly keep track.
Which one?
Says the pro I$rael sycophant. No one lies more than I$rael and its people
@@JupiterFredNone . Just Zionists living in their Bubble projecting their own pathological lying on Others . Oppenheimer is a Classic example of Cherry picked History, muddled timelines and straight Up Lies ( "Gaza isn't occupied" being the Most important one in this regard ) we are so accustomed .
For example (1) that Hamas is becoming moderate and that some of the Hamas leadership feel ashamed of their charter. (2) That Masha Gessen has compared Gaza to “a ghetto”. Like a vulgar propagandist, she has compared Gaza to “the Warsaw Ghetto”, not just “a ghetto”. (She has angered the Germans and has lost all her credibility because of that). (3) That most Palestinians are willing to accept a Jewish state or the presence of Jews in a shared state. (4) That Arafat walked away from the 2000 camp David negociation because Ehud Barak seemed hesitant. Etc. Etc.
@@warmperson2007 @warmperson2007 ah ... Facism . How much Reality becomes warped If everything must serve the Goal of "Feeling good " while murdering civilians on a daily Basis . Before the 7th October .
So
1) He doesn't say that Hamas is becoming moderate Just that they modified Charter which is true in contrary to the Likud Charter that still includes the "river to the sea " reference .
2) the Word isn't Ghetto . Its concentration Camp . And now death Camp . And Masha Gessen Just followed the example of a number of rightwing Israeli historians and Holocaust Scientists.
And she compared the "war" with the Liquidation of the Warsaw Ghetto . Don't be lazy in your Propaganda get at least the Fake "outrage" right .
3) the Most Palestinians under Israeli Rules have No rights and live under Military rule in the West Bank . I really don't Care If you can't Count or Just Imagine 5,3 Million people Out of existence . To act as If Israel has even tried to govern the ~7,5 Million Palestinians that live in the occupied territories fairly over the Last 6 decades is a Joke and cynicly to , still, try to peddle the fairy Tale of an "inclusive" and "tolerant" Israel . We can read Israeli laws and UN Reports . To Project your Wish to murder the indigenous people on them while they and their supporters have Said for decades that a one state solution ala South Africa is probably the best solution in the Long Run mostly because Israel would be liable to pay reparations for the Nakba and six decades of illegal occupation. Thats Not gonna Happen If the jewish Israeli Side keeps voting in more and more jewish Nazis Like Smotrich and Ben Gvir. Not that Netanyahu and His Likud is any better . And Einstein and Arendt compared it with the NSDAP .
I agree .
4) He didnt say that Arafat walked "away" From the Oslo accords but that Arafat refused His final Signatur because Israel was moving more and more Settlers thugs into the West Bank , which is a war crime , and thus Rendering the Oslo accords a Farce . Because Israel couldnt be bothered to uphold even a Bantustan solution Like Oslo . And the facist Israeli right aka the Kahanists and their Likud Allies murdered Rabin and have been in Power ever since .
Look .
I get it .
You have been told all your Life that "Jews were Always the victims" and the "Holocaust justifies/neccesitates the existence of Israel " . Which are Lies . And explicitly rejected by Israels founding fathers Like Ben Gurion and Jabotinsky who Always spoke and wrote about a colonial Project. And your Israeli Press is extremely far on the right and the vile and abhorrent language used to describe the "other" i.e. the native Palestinians and its reflected in "pro Israel " comments and Statements Made around the world in the Last forty years . The only difference now is that the Rest of the Planet is actually listen to what you people say Out loud . And No Genocide is Not okay . Cutting of water and food is a war crime . Moving in Settlers because "they wanna See the sea " is a war crime .
Carpet bombing civilians and attacking hospitals is a war crime .
And to demand that Israel respects the laws of war isn't antisemitic .
I think it's regrettable that the debate devolved into a discussion of who has the moral upper hand in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in general. It started out with the appropriate framing, and then became something quite different. I'd have liked to see Mark and Raja focus in on the requirements under just war theory.
Some discussion of the conflict was necessary because Raja pointed to the blockade of Gaza as a reason to doubt that Israel was acting in self-defense, but I think the much more relevant questions relate to the ethics of Israel's conduct during the war itself. I really wanted to see a focus on the principles of proportionality and discrimination because the way I read most of the criticism of the Gaza War, it's directed towards Israel's military strikes on nominally protected structures (hospitals, schools, etc).
Ultimately, however, most of these are going to be empirical questions, and philosophers are not going to be able to get to the truth on most of what matters here.
Raja made some comments that were quite strange, and I was surprised to hear them from somebody who appears to be an otherwise serious and sober-minded person. The suggestion that Israel should have relied on the ICC to prosecute Hamas officials for war crimes is almost laughable. How would that have happened? Without a military defeat of Hamas, there's simply no way to enforce an arrest warrant. You think Qatar is going to do it? Again, laughable.
Also, the claim that Hamas isn't antisemitic is turning reality on its head to such a degree it's very difficult to even engage with. What does he think was happening on Oct 7? It was quite obviously an attack on Israeli Jews. Hamas has said, openly and repeatedly, that it aims at the annihilation of Israel and Jews in general. If that's not antisemitic, I don't know what is.
What was happening before october 7th? The settlers blatantly attacking arabs, the vilification of arabs in israeli text books, removal of the history of nakba, netanyahu sayin this war is his crusade and a win for israel is a win for all judeo christians worldwide. Look at the broader picture instead of just screaming khamassss, its gettin real pathetic nowadays.
It's funny how only the Palestinians get accused of anti semetism whilst it's completely acceptable in israel proper so much so that even arab israelis over there are constantly vilified even in the Knesset.
I love the BIAV podcast, and generally find Mark's positions persuasive, but his arguments here are not convincing. His unwillingness to address concrete historical fact when it was raised in his assessment of the justness of the war, as if Oct. 7 were some kind of lone event in world history, remained a serious problem throughout. Halwani's more overt emotionality shouldn't distract us from the reality that his arguments were considerably more grounded in political and juridical fact, while Oppenheimer's basic appeal (delivered soberly) rested on emotion and a handful of whataboutist generalizations. I was really hoping to have some of my assumptions about the matter overturned, but there just wasn't much at all convincing here. I'm already steeped in the history. If Mark has a substantive case, he should've made it.
very well said. these were my sentiments exactly.
The sex expert argues that Israel has no right to defend itself against hamas because of the blockade. He says it constitutes occupation. But the blockade was put in place by Egypt and Israel in 2007 in response to Hamas winning an election after running on a platform about destroying israel. So the argument is that Israel is not allowed to defend itself because Israel tried to defend itself.
there is nothing remotely like that in the platform hamas ran on. hamas's participation in that election was widely understood to be a gesture of moderation at the time and anyone interested in seeing an end to violent extremism would have welcomed it. hamas as a precondition for contesting the election had halted violence and its platform affirmed political pluralism within palestinian civil society. hamas also affirmed that it would accept any settlement negotiated between israel and the palestinian authority concerning a two state settlement provided it were put to a referendum and passed by a majority of the palestinian electorate. it sounds like you've done exactly zero reading on the history in question. moreover, imposing collective punishment on a civilian population--a majority of whom in this case were children--in retaliation for an unwelcome electoral outcome is a violation of international law. hell isn't hot enough for the israeli officials who devised and implemented that policy to "put the palestinians on a diet", which forbade entry of a laundry list of basic goods including chocolate and children's toys, and delivered a grievous blow to the already suffocating economy in gaza.
@@meshzzizk it's dangerous to do what you're doing, because you get detached from reality. It's better to tell a blatant lie than to mislead with bits of truth. You're careful word choice, "gesture of moderation" exposes the way you're a consciously trying to mislead people. You make it sound as if Fatah was extreme and Hamas was more moderate. People watching this debate are probably informed enough at least to know Hamas shamed fatah for compromising too much with israel.
The "gesture of moderation" was when they de-emphasized the destruction of Israel for only one week before the election to improve their odds. But it was still in there Charter.
It's worth a few seconds to search Google and review the insane things in the Hamas charter. Anyone reading this who is interested can search for:
hamas, original charter, first 12 articles
In any case Hamas is to blame even by your description of the situation@@meshzzizk
@@meshzzizkanyone who doubts that Hamas is all about destroying Israel can Google it's charter. But nobody doubts that. What you're referring to is the way they changed their messaging 2 weeks before the election. You terrorists lie so often you lose your sense of what's plausible and say dumb stuff people can see right through.
@@meshzzizk really? Hamas had a political charter. Go read it. The only thing that matches your arrogance is ignorance
Halwani condemns 10/7 in the sense that he says things like "I condemn those terrible atrocities." Ok, that sounds good... until you hear more. Then you hear it likened to a bound captive man who manages to get one hand free and scratch his oppressor's child with his fingernail out of completely understandable anger. Tell me that doesn't minimize these atrocities. Indeed, everything he says about the context of the attacks seems intended to minimize their evil. It was an act of desperation. It was a response to oppression. The total picture you get from listening to it is that it's wrong-ish, but who can really blame them? It's like the father of three molested girls lunging at Larry Nasser in court: wrong... but understandable.
It's telling that he thinks it's okay at all to be violent toward a child.
@@noahghost4476 I don't think he thinks it's ok, but it's clear that our sympathy isn't supposed to be with the child in this example, or at least 99% of it isn't.
@@Micro-Digressionsthat's a genius username! That's cool. I just reviewed it again 5:18 and the analogy really is about a guy being restrained against his will and he responds by hurting his oppressor's child, not because it would somehow help him get free but just because he had the opportunity. Seems like the reason the analogy is so weird is because he's trying to justify what happened at that music festival. In other words, if there are zero circumstances where you would retaliate against someone by hurting their child..... then you might be too decent to ever understand the sensibilities of this sex worker guy.
Can you get Destiny on the podcast?
Raja's opening statement is already so pathetic. 👎🏼 It just consists of the usual propaganda talking points of the anti-Israel lobby; nothing novel about it.😡
Mark's opening statement on the other hand is way more realistic, factual, and acceptable. 👌🏼💪🏼✌🏼👏🏼
"Knives inside vaginas" and "Gaza civilian workers gave Intel to hamas on who to target" are both factually false, debunked by israels own investigation and reporting, including Shin Bet.
Rajas opening statement includes assessment of just war, along with the multitude of ways israel has not met those criteria, including by statements from international human rights orgs, UN rapporteurs, etc.
That's not true. He laid things out eloquently that many audiences rarely hear. How often do you about nasser for example. Meanwhile his interlocutor pretty much repeated the talking points we have heard time and time again
Thank you Mark Oppenheimer 👏👏👏
Awesome, this guy worships Sinwar, not God
Yes I am purposely belligerent for God and sanity. Gaza is not starving of food. The a soul empty.
Mr. Palestinian, you speak quick and speak slow. You abandoned Deus. Vivitas. Rem
The other party, Oppenheimer, is not very well informed about the Arab Israeli/Palestinian Israeli conflict. You should have invited someone who is more informed about this conflict to counter the affirmative.
For example, Mosab Hasan Youssef, the son of one of Hamas’ founders, turned pro Israel militant. He knows from the inside what Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank, really think about Israel and the Jews.
The latest sign I asked God for was the big solar flare for May 11th Aurora Borealis. There are eleven solar years on the sun
L'chaim
I'm impressed with Raj's patience in this debate. It's crazy that the debate is framed as though Israel has always existed, and as though the Palestinians have always simply been belligerent neighbors trying to conquer it. And it's crazy to act like Israel is this weak, easily bullied state, surrounded by powerful enemies. No, actually, the Israelis seized the land from the Palestinians in the first place, with the support of powerful Western nations. And they are massively more powerful than the Palestinians, again due to the support of powerful Western nations. I don't see how we can have a meaningful discussion about how to move forward, if we don't have these basic facts of the situation firmly in view.
I don't understand how educated people use absolute terms like "kicked out" while most of them left because of the war. Also ignoring the fact that Hamas knew that israel is a trigger happy state and which is why they did what they did. It took 4 years to release one hostage, and he expects Israel to do it calmly for 250...
Radical Islam: This is Jihad, Hezbollah, the Taliban, Hamas. Their ideology is an extreme religion and they believe that the Jews and Christians must be destroyed for their very existence and their religion. The false politics they spread is so twisted. And they certainly succeeded in fooling the entire Western world. They laugh in your face. Islam will not change its ways. I wonder how many innocents will be murdered until the West, the campuses and the media understand. They create wars and spread images to the West that in every war there has been in the world, these are shocking sights with images that are hard not to evoke empathy, but no one understands that they don't really care about the Palestinians, they are a tool for them as long as that is what will lead them to their goals. Those brainwashed pro-Palestinians who feed on false information like this guy who spoke without any facts and only cared about twisting the truth. Otherwise, how will you explain that there are still Muslims living in Israel who have the option of leaving if they were under an occupying country? The 7/10 is a do not return to Israel point, what does it mean? that no enemy should ever be given the feeling that peace can be believed when he declares that he would do it again, again, and again. If you care about the Palestinians, you will protest against Hamas and their cowardly leaders who sit in Qatar in wealth and comfort at the expense of their citizens who they really do not care about.
Non-Israelis talking about Israel... about 30% of Raja's comments are simple not the truth.
Sincerly, Amira Malaka Elah
God spoke fifty sentences to me from above over nine years time.
His first nine sentences were 8.4.2015 in the morning. Since then I have told and timestamped many prescient visions that came true.
The last sentence God spoke to me from above to my ear was four years ago after many months.
He said, You are Princess Messenger of God.
In Aramaic, it's Amira Malaka Elah
I believe He may have spoken more than 50 sentences to you. I hope your son is staying safe and proud. When he frustrates you, you always remain patient with him. Am Yisrael Chai ❤
Raja is not representative for the whole Palestinian population. Maybe some of them.
My son is in Jerusalem
Palestinians read Siddartha
He talked about lebonan, everyone should also listen to Brigitte Gabriel who talks about how Christian in Lebanon, who were being sl4ught3red by those Palestinian refugees, begged Israel to come and save them. Israel didn’t want to go to war but the Christians asked them to be saved. Many Christian Lebanese talk about it. Israel saved many of them and everyone injured was also brought to Israeli hospitals to have life saving surgeries.
All the same tired and absurd talking points. "Gaza could've been Singapore..." gfy
@1:08:40 Sounds like Hamas would like to institute Apartheid, no?
Islam requires apartheid. (see chapter 9). ❤😂🎉 But you gotta give him credit for his sense of humor when he mentions a Palestinian State "at the end of the tunnel." 8:13
We have compatible values in the United States. Of course, Palestinians abandoned Deus. Vivitas. Rem for hate
No matter how much we debate this issue, ultimately God will judge the situation and his justice will be supreme. God is never on the side of the oppressors.
Inform every Muslim done. Wrong. Suffused with hate and avarice
I am the eldest of five. My brother is Marc Reisman. Sincerly Jacova Reisman
L'chaim from Jacova eleven, Gevurah born March 11th in Bethlehem
Raja is all vitriol
Islamer Jihad is anathema to God and life. God is my Father and rabbi
Mixed feeling on this, but definitely less crazy than the last debate lol
A fantastic discussion.
Hard to believe that Raja is a professor. Wouldn't take him as a cook
Wouldn’t take you as anything but an I$rael 🤖
This was great. I have been extremely sad about the atrocities on October 7, and the atrocities after October 7. This is the best debate I saw on the situation since October 7. Even though I squarely fall into one of the camps in what I believe, I agree with Mark that the way that this debate serves as a model for other debates is what makes it so good.
Did you not find it odd that after every time the pro-Palestine side finished speaking the moderator gave him numerous compliments about what he had said but every time the pro-Israel side finished, nothing.
@@Shellybelly778 You mean "compliments," not "complaints."
@philipnikolayev987 Yes. Thanks for the correction
This comment was from the mod's other account! Just kidding though, I honestly think it was a mistake and that if it was deliberate he would have tried to be subtle about it.
@@noahghost4476 that is true, it was far from subtle.
Raj did wonderful, all facts and truths. Thank you. Free Palästina.
Somehow the whole debate has gone clearly irrational, and it's nonsensical to actually still believe that everything is sane and good in the state of Israel. Firstly, the argument that the Palestinians have given up their rights to a seperate state is wrong. The mass of countries inside the UN have decided to halve the country and that decision has never been overturned. An empty chair is just that and nothing else. Secondly, what happens to the Negev Bedouin nowadays points to what is wrong inside Israel itself. There Israeli authorities demolish housing whilst not constructing new ones just because there's no road to the settlement, etc. Look it up. Thirdly, the actual old Labour plan to give the Arabs on the Westbank only residency inside the one country of Israel and Jordan citizenship wouldn't fly either because that will cause destabilization of Jordan once again. It's funny in a cruel way that some in Israel deny the Palestinian identity except for one third of the population of Jordan. No-where else in the Middle East the Arabs are Palestinians except Jordan. Some wishful thinking and myth building there too!
Tldr
@@noahghost4476 Nitwits have like that, you know. Cause they don't read
@@geertdecoster5301 yeah, nitwits have like that all the time. Smh.
Proof that talking to oneself never works btw
@@geertdecoster5301 why didnt jordan and egypt let the west bank and gaza have independence from 48 to 67? Because it's not about statehood. Y'all just want to destroy israel, and you are evil.
This was a clear trouncing for the zionist narrative.
1:26:42 the first intifada? the great march of return? has he just not heard of these events?
1:01:34 no, you have an extensive israeli security apparatus running raids into gaza and and the west bank, arresting thousands of palestinian civilians to hold in "administrative detention" without due process on an indefinite basis. and you have instance after instance after instance of israeli aerial and artillery and sniper massacres directed at civilians inside gaza predicated on flimsy pretexts ("mowing the lawn"). there's a mountain of human rights report literature on this of which mark is apparently unaware or else deliberately excluding from consideration.
Radical Islam: This is Jihad, Hezbollah, the Taliban, Hamas. Their ideology is an extreme religion and they believe that the Jews and Christians must be destroyed for their very existence and their religion. The false politics they spread is so twisted. And they certainly succeeded in fooling the entire Western world. They laugh in your face. Islam will not change its ways. I wonder how many innocents will be murdered until the West, the campuses and the media understand. They create wars and spread images to the West that in every war there has been in the world, these are shocking sights with images that are hard not to evoke empathy, but no one understands that they don't really care about the Palestinians, they are a tool for them as long as that is what will lead them to their goals. Those brainwashed pro-Palestinians who feed on false information like this guy who spoke without any facts and only cared about twisting the truth. Otherwise, how will you explain that there are still Muslims living in Israel who have the option of leaving if they were under an occupying country? The 7/10 is a do not return to Israel point, what does it mean? that no enemy should ever be given the feeling that peace can be believed when he declares that he would do it again, again, and again. If you care about the Palestinians, you will protest against Hamas and their cowardly leaders who sit in Qatar in wealth and comfort at the expense of their citizens who they really do not care about.
That's bs, IDF arrested stabbers, weapon and drug smugglers, Hamas informants and operatives, people who slinged projectiles and Molotov's at cars. Not random civilians as you put it