Teardown of a faulty Samsung lithium 18650 cell. (2200mAh)
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- I've never opened a lithium cell that has an internal short circuit before, so I thought it would be quite interesting to do. It was also a good opportunity to see how they jam so much chemistry into the standard 18650 package. If this is how stuffed a 2200mAh cell is then it shows why the 3000mAh cells are so expensive. There must be a lot of work in jamming even more chemistry in, and it shows how safety could be compromised by pushing everything to the edge to make it fit.
The other video where I discuss the rechargeability of over-discharged cells is here:-
• Are over-discharged li...
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Man, if only Big Clive was my school science teacher way back when, that would've been the highlight of each week and we would've actually learned something too!
He’d have been the most dank teacher ever! Whatever he taught, students would remember forever!
Yeah, and with all the dangerous stuff he does he would have fitted in well in the 70's when I was doing science
MY science teacher in them 80’s at Havasu high was the best and let me get in early and set up and test things.
Where is it the a in have is included in contractions?
@@nicewhenearnedrudemostlyel489 well spotted, looks like the English teacher wasn't the best either!
350k views tearing down an 18650. clive you are an absolute legend.
This is the first time I've ever seen anyone perform such an extensive autopsy... on a dead lithium battery. Very cool, very informative, thank you.
I remember as a kid unwrapping all the "paper" in capasitors from old tube radios, in a vain attempt to find the "mechanism" inside all that wrapping. Not realizing the "paper" was the "mechanism" in the capasitors.
Leif Neland we did that at electronics collage years ago!
Me too XD
Holy shit, no PCB then?
sure their was he absorbed it thats why he is out of his mind and posting on youtube
In high school we would 'unwrap' them with overvoltage
You crack through so many of those poundland power banks, I just imagine you at the register with an armful of them and the cashier asking "don't you think you've had enough"
And you say "I'll tell you when I've had enough!"
Sam J in my local pound land the power banks now cost £2!!! That's a 100% increase!
+Sam J --> Actually I think Clive has a special arrangement with the stock personnel at his local Poundland so that he can buy them in the 24-count shipping box. LOL Saves them from having to put them on the shelves. ;)
HAHAHAHA! don't they say the same thing to the individual with the metallic gold mustache purchasing multiple cans of metallic pray paint? LOL! STOP SNIFFIN' THAT CLIVE!!!
"You DO know these are rechargeable, right?"
not rechargeable if seperations and ionic polymers meet! NO CHARGING or LITTLE CHARGE HOLD. and for a proper e-battery for vehicle to work all cells must be approximately the same!
The moment you see the pie dish and get excited
"I've forgotten again" - Perhaps the carcinogens?
More likely the gin ;)
I'm very easily distracted when opening things. I tend to go off at random tangents all the time.
perhaps!
Single malts.
That's why I watch...
I once had a zinc carbon battery explode right next to me and shoot the carbon rod at my arm at high velocity. I was eating a Bramley apple pie at that moment and accidentally squished it into my face. Before anyone knew what had happened, they all presumed the apple pie had exploded in my face. Henceforth, it was known as: _"The exploding apple pie incident"._
My friend was actually playing with my electronics kit next to me and had inadvertently shorted one of the batteries. That's where the explosion came from.
didn't even know that was possible... was it like a D size battery or was it from a lantern battery?
@@fungusenthusiast8249
AA size. I didn't think they could explode either. Must've been fully sealed batteries. Cheapo ones off the market.
Back in the early 80s I was in grade school, and a "class clown" in my classroom had to stay inside during lunch hour recess and write his "I will behave" sentences on the chalk board while the rest of us were outside playing.
When us kids returned from outside recess, I had noticed the "clown" was at the sink in our classroom, and he was constantly sipping water from a glass jar and spitting it back into the sink. My desk was right next to the sink, and I had asked him why he was doing that. He stuck his tongue out, and there was a BIG NASTY crater of what looked like melted skin in the middle of his tongue. I was shocked, and asked him what in the HELL happened... and he showed me a half disassembled pile of pieces from a 9 volt battery, and told me that he had used his teeth to pull the terminals (of which one of them was some kind of rod) out of the battery, and as it slid out, some kind of "acid" had sprayed out of the hole right onto his tongue and ate some of the skin off it. That was 40 or so years ago, and I STILL have a crystal clear image of the burnt crater on his tongue in my mind. I've had respect for batteries ever since then.
"If your workbench is cluttered, it's the sign of science happening."
Alternative title is "Reading the Forbidden Scrolls"
If a device can record for more than 30 minutes, it's classed as a video camera and has a higher import duty, so it's an artificial limit for tax purposes.
One example of complete bullshit regulations from the last century.
or it could be the 4GB filesize limit on FAT32 storage devices.
John Hollowell No, its marketing / sales reasons. Every 1080p camera I have splits the files at the 4Gb barrier. Whether they have a 30 min limit or not. On my Canons, it splits before the 30 minute timeout.
The other feature that gets flagged is “Clean HDMI” out. Usually the cameras that limit at 30 min, don’t provide a full resolution, non-OSD hdmi signal while recording. (Which would be one way around the 30 min timeout. )
Yeah, when cameras stop recording at 30 min, its the tax artificial limit. But the FAT 32 format of most SD cards and other storage devices limits the size of a single file to 4GB. This is why recorders will split the recording into 4GB files.
Sniffs battery, "I forgot what I was saying", goes on and sniffs again, "I forgot what I was just saying"
Kinda made me laugh. Found your videos the other day and been watching lots and learning lots too!
Lesson#43: never sniff battery guts
Any video featuring the explosion containment pie dish is a good video in my book.
Very interesting! I had no idea that was what killed cells in a pack. I've harvested so many cells from "dead" laptop battery packs for other DIY projects and always found one or more dead cells in them but I never knew why only some died.
It's not only a vent mechanism; it's a small membrane switch that pops up if the cell experiences an overpressure condition due to heat from rapid discharge or improper recharge. The little switch opens the circuit from the anode of the cell to the positive contact on the container, rendering it dead. Some people poke a jeweler's screwdriver through one of the four little holes and pop the membrane switch back down to reactivate the cell, but this is fraught with danger because it deforms the membrane and it will no longer act as a safety. Bang!
I appreciate all you do--you are a true role model for young and old people alike; your curiosity and your abilities as a teacher make this world a better place. Cheers!
I wonder if one could blow the short out?
... I have a welder that can do 250A ...
Clive: **dons rubber gloves and fetches explosion containment pie dish**
Me: **gets comfy and prepares for science**
Talks and abut cells bursting into flames and then next sentence is "where's my knife".
He has an explosion containment pie dish.
As for the insides... yes, the cap has a vent. (and in cells ment for retail use, there's supposed to be fuse) The electrolyte is a modern witch's brew. It used to be something similar to anti-freeze (glycol), but today, they are an extremely complex mix of organic solvents and salts. (and potentially flammable, but less pyrophoric than the first battery you took apart!) If you look at the side that was touching the copper, there's a copper sheen in the electrolyte. (bingo! she's dead.)
there's a copper sheen in the electrolyte. (bingo! she's dead.)
----------------------
What exactly is dead? Did copper got in the electrolyte? But how did that kill the battery? Thanks.
21:30 "Oh no, it's full of dangerous chemicals and you'll get ca~ncer, and you'll die~, heeheeheeheehee" 😂
so uh, what's in an Egyptian gin and tonic, and how do I make one?
Take one bottle of generic vodka and add two drips (and I really mean just two drips) of essential juniper oil and one (once again just ONE drip in a 750ml bottle of vodka) of four thieves essential oil. It will convert the vodka into an aromatic gin. Four thieves oil contains clove, lemon, cinnamon, eucalyptus and rosemary oil.
Do not add too much oil or it rapidly becomes overpowering and unpleasant. Ethanol is a solvent, so when the bottle is shaken the oils will diffuse into it.
Sounds interesting. Ordered some oils, it will be fun trying it in a week or so when they arrive. Thanks!
bigclivedotcom Clive, I am a gin snob. No apologies offered for that.
I must try this.
Since you mentioned oils, the first thing I thought of was Diesel. Diesel gin and tonic anyone?
Da9eI You can buy it. It’s called Sibling gin. Sorry, gin snob comment there. But that stuff tastes like I’d imagine your suggestion would. Foul.
"Oh That smells great. Smell that cancerogenic goodness."
Carcinogenic not cancerogenic
youtube spell check didnt say it was correct
that's cos its american, limited vocabulary
PCB 5%
@@arvidsgills1157 RUclips doesn't have spell check; that's either from your PC or phone. You're batting 0/2
"Hammering the hard disk" sounds like Windows superfetch. It likes to run when you're right in the middle of something important.
You should be careful combining Gin and electricity. Gin can be as much as 60% water, and we all know water and electricity don't go well together.
And tonic water is like 90% water, that's some nasty stuff...
But Gin goes great with everything!
Is that a problem?
This is a piece of foam.
They really should not put so large amounts of dangerous water into their gin.
I really love how well you can explain technicalities, great job as usual Clive
youtube has me stuck in a loop of your videos. Honestly, I don't mind & I'm gaining an appreciation for your brand of humor.
I love how I watch your videos silently and just learning.
34:47 shows a more transparent spot roughly in the same place as the spot on the copper.
Indeed!
I've had the same exact thing happened. I was buying old laptop batteries to recycle good cells or sometimes even refurbish them (long time ago). I ended up having bunch of cells that were from 700mAh up to around 3000mAh. Paired them based on their characteristics (6 or 8), made a few working batteries, the rest was used in pairs or singles for various devices as flashlights and electronic cigarettes. What's interesting is that I was able to get some of those back to life. I suspect it was because they went flat in storage, not connected to circuit. They lasted years after that with no problems until I forgot and left them in electronic cigarette for 3 years or so. Even more interesting, one refused to charge at all, one charged nicely up to around 3.8V, then got very hot and started self discharging. Apparently it was bridged already. The other two recovered and were fine for a short time but when they were discharged to around 3V, they suddenly both decided to short out and committed seppuku.
Couldn't you have just used the multimeter to probe resistance directly through that membrane with the graphite still on it? As you move the probes, you should be able to pinpoint where exactly the fault is, and it should also allow you to detect microscopic metal dendrites that have punctured the separator... unless I'm totally missing the boat on this one, again.
That does not sound terribly fun - and quite messy.
Ignes Andros; More messy than washing off all of the graphite to try and visually see a hole underneath?
That paste is quite firmly on there, simply moving the probes around on it shouldn't be THAT messy...
MRLT You might punch holes with the probes.
Which is why I would take 2 metal plates and put them on both sides, now you can measure a bigger area and not risk puncturing it
Reviews+Tutorials Yeah that is a good idea. The only issue is that the larger the squares are, the less likely you will be able to localize the small pinhole.
Perhaps simply submerging it in a shallow amount of water, on top of a large piece of Aluminium foil, would be better. You could attach one probe to the foil (which touches one side of the seperator), and then simply move the other, small probe tip around without actually touching the coating at all. The water's resistance should be large enough (regular tap water should be fine), so that you could easily tell when you're right over the hole.
MRLT Or you could just move one plate after you found the short so the area where they are on top of each other is smaller.
And simply keep making the area smaller until you found the point
Taken from a icr14500 3.7v 1600mAh datasheet with in arms length.
Aluminum Foil (Al) 5%
Copper Foil (Cu) 10%
Cobalt lithium dioxide (CoO2.Li) 40%
Graphite (C) 20%
Electrolyte 15%
Aluminium plastic film 5%
PCB 5%
Yes the data sheet used both Al spellings. lol
Just to give an idea what is in a similar cell.
Interesting. I've noted that down and looked it up too. Quite nice that the technology was developed by a German-born American in England. That covers every base. Even better that he is actually called John B Goodenough.
Mr Goodenough is a professor at UT Austin
Which covers the fourth country, Texas.
bigclivedotcom if you feel particularly happy, you may have lithium poisoning. Lol.
But actually, I bet you could eat all the powder and still be fine... The compounds listed have pretty high intake requirements to be toxic...
CLIVE - What I got from our secret German Wunderwaffe papers below concerning your cell:
1) The Kathode is Lithium-Kobalt-Oxid.
The Kathode is sitting on Aluminium. The Aluminium is merely the conductor/contact, NOT the Kathode.
2) The Anode is Carbon in the form of Graphit.
The Graphit is sitting on Copper. The Copper is merely the conductor/contact, NOT the Anode.
3) There should be wetness in form of electrolyte (lithium-salt + organic-solvent) between Anode and Cathode and you only have dry crumbs.
I suspect, that like in an old Kondensator or capacitor as you call it, the solvent of the electrolyte has dried up in your cell.
Try adding some Ethylencarbonate and Dimethylcarbonate in a mixture 1:1 and have a look if the cell works again.
But check first under a microscope, if the nanostructures in the graphite layer are still OK and if the SEI layer (Solid Elektrolyte Interphase) is intact.
Big Clive, I am a battery researcher, you have a lot of little things wrong here. Maybe you are simplifying, but I would be careful talking about chemistry like this.
Over discharge damages the copper foil on the cathode which can result in lowered potential, dendrite formation, and damage to the anode.
I can go through this with you if you like.
I (and I'm sure many others) would be very interested to hear. I always like hearing from a real researcher / professional. I have read a lot and it seems most people just recite the same things and clives reverse charge explanation sounds best to me so far. I've totally discharged some cells but whenever any are reverse charged (such as in a pack) the casualties are very high. Way higher than 0v discharges. I don't know chemistry though.....
Ammoniummetavanadate mind officially blown. Thanks
Ammoniummetavanadate yes u r right i learned from battery mooch spot on there buddy.
I love you.
volvo09 He isn't wrong about the plating aspect, although that rarely happens.
My main issue with his analysis is that is leaves out the electrolyte, cathode material ( it isn't graphite, it is generally a lithiated cobalt or manganese oxide structure) and SEI (solid electrolyte interface). Lithium ion batteries are not chemically stable, the electrolyte will attack the anode and cathode materials (generally carbonates mixed with lithium hexafluorophosphate) but are inhibited by the SEI. Too much heat and the electrolyte can further react creating those pretty explosions we see which also release things like HF gas. The electrical potential is part of it, but the chemical degradation is where the smoke and flames come from.
This channel interests me so much I enjoy it and never seen someone do such a thorough in-depth teardown of a dead cell very interesting stuff! If only you were my science teacher at school things could of been a lot different lol. Thanks
Hey, if I've understood your comments correctly, a reversed diode across each cell in a lithium pack (schottky even better) would go a long way to avoid risk of killing cells when charging. Don't think that would work as easily in a paralleled arrangement i.e. where the charge current exceeds the capacity of inexpensive rectifiers - say 20 amp. Surprised you don't see that in DIY construction.
Multi-cell reverse charging may explain why LiPo batteries for radio controlled models have both a power plug and a 'balance' plug. The latter is used to bring each cell up to voltage independently while charging (as I understand it.)
Thanks for the video. Reminds me of when I was a kid and took some dead zinc carbon batteries apart. I tried to make an arc light using the carbon electrodes, but the circuit breaker on my electric train transformer kept popping before the electrodes did anything other than glow red (which probably was a good thing!)
Yep. The balance plug is indeed used to prevent one cell from rising over it's max voltage during charging, as the charger has access to each individual cell in the pack through the balance plug, and will automatically cap the max voltage to each cell. In theory, balance charging will also help to prevent the damaging "reverse charging" scenario during the packs use, because the cells all started with the same exact voltage when the pack is then used. (As long as the cells are all healthy, and were matched well before it was assembled.) In my opinion it still pays, with lithium packs, to stop using them before the BMS cuts them off, and recharge them. Doing this extends the life of the pack, and ensures that there is no way to possibly run into the reverse charging situation.
I just had my segway catch fire out of nowhere. I mean, nowhere. I had almost 500 miles on the scooter. It was amazing. Anyways, i heard a noise and started looking, found the scooter and placed it outside, within 3 minutes it was in flames, one cell after another went up in flames with a tiny explosion inbetween. I have some of it on video. Had i not been home! I would rather not think about it...
That looks like the exact battery pack that died in my Samsung laptop, took me a good while to get the damn folks over there to replace it. But yeah that laptop was a POS
I love the smell of old lithium cells :D, very fruity. same as opening up blister packs of OSA .223 ammo, which smells identical yet contains no lithium, odd.
Probably a similar solvent.
Clive, maybe next time you should leave the bad battery connected to the bench power supply for some time (under close supervision). The suspected short circuit channel in the foil should heat up and hopefully that could leave a more visible mark on the separator. I suspect the trick would be to turn the current off before it causes a thermal runoff.
I had a lot to do with the early lithium polymer aluminium pillow style batteries for radio control. In this application everyone wanted the maximum discharge current donated in multiples of “C” being the capacity of the pack. Early packs from memory where rated at 5C and the last I remember up to 40C and I think much greater now. Balance charging was the order of the day so individual pin outs for each cell and a loom and balancers or balance chargers. And caution advised when running packs in parallel. The ducted fan boys had recharging trailers set up with multiple good 12 volt batteries chargers and serious “fanatics” see what I did there camping generators. They where getting to voltage levels with multiple series packs that required an electrician to approve and ducted fan thrusts in the 10 kg range similar to a medium sized turbine. I have successfully recovered packs where one cell has dropped under three volts by charging this cell individually on low current until over three volts then you can charge at 1C. Safe charging of all these cells was 1C with later cells taking 2 or 3C. Very interesting tech and made electric flight a reality for radio control. Wobbels the mad Aussie.
21:30 I hear the Gin is starting to take effect....
I would think you could place a diode in parallel with each cell and that way if there was reverse bias it would just get shunted. I am sure the manufacturer would know this but want you to have to replace them periodically.
Diodes leak current. That's undesirable in an energy storage cell.
My girlfriend's laptop battery was killed by a dodgy charger and I thought I could open it and charge it above the cut off voltage if they were low, or replace the defective cell but nope. The protection IC failed. The batteries were completely fine and so too were the fuse and diode/mosfets... Sods law.
That makes NO sense. There is no charging circuitry inside the laptop battery pack. It's all on the laptop motherboard. The only thing you will find inside the battery pack is overcharge/discharge protection, fuelguage and some other safety mechanisms (over temp shutoff, chemical fuse etc.)
I have experienced a number of lithium batteries fail from the protection IC taking a dump. The tiny epoxy encapsulation of the IC itself had deteriorated, turned into a substance like a putty. Lead wires to the die lose support and break. Replaced the IC and good to go. I guess when China runs put of regular encapsulation epoxy, they use dog shit, newspaper bits or whatever can be found to load into the encapsulation molding machine.
zapro_dk
I didn't say there was charging circuitry in the pack.. although there is balancing circuitry in most if not all packs.
Most protection ICs will separate the battery pack if it detects any faults (over temp, under voltage, overvoltage etc) this is marked as a flag and some batteries allow a certain number of flags before it's deemed unusable.
I was hoping that one of the cells were low from the dodgy charger lead shorting out or some other easy fix. Hope this cleared some of your confusion up
Skruffles
maybe charger was outputting the wrong voltage??
Charge IC has some eeprom inside that it uses to record cell condition, and when it detects failed cells it writes the eeprom with a fail code and then stops responding. Can be reset with the right software and programmer. Others also have a fail safe blowable fuse on them that the charge controller blows open as a final safety to protect the cells from abuse, along with the regular mosfet charge and discharge control switches. they all will have a thermal one time fuse as final overheat protection, though there are plenty of examples of these being a little too late to prevent the battery catching fire as it vents the electrolyte and it contacts a source of ignition.
I used to be a member of a model flying club, and someone crashed one of his planes, putting a dent in the 14v battery pack. He decided to do an experiment by looping the +ve and -ve wires together, then standing well back. The battery took about 20 seconds to start smoking, then at about 60 seconds it exploded. This showered a radius of 8 feet with hundreds of those strips, each one about 10 inches long and 2 inches wide. We had to clear up all the remnants as the field was also used by grazing sheep. Thanks for the video..
This reminds me of when I was much younger, when I was about 8 years old, even then I was curious of what was in side batteries, I took apart various types of D cell, and 9 volt ones, the big old PP9 radio ones were very messy full of black carbon powder! It was also intresting to dismantle big old school transformers with literally miles of copper wire inside!
the black powder is manganese dioxide and it is moist with ammonium chloride solution. The electrode in the middle is a carbon rod. And has a zinc outer coat.
The copper goes into the membrane. It''s at the atomic level, you might not see it if you don't have a new membrane to compare to. Gold is nice to do a super-thin coating on stuff, and it doesn't look gold when it's done. You wouldn't see the copper.
I just realized I'm watching a battery autopsy...
...I can't look away.
I believe there was a big conference where they decided the standard spelling and pronunciation is the English way, aluminium, however the other is deemed as "acceptable"... Probabaly in the same way as waiting 19 hours for an xray is...
Small point-and-shoot cameras are legally limited to 20-30 minutes, Tom Scott did a video on that, or mentioned it in one of their Park Bench episodes. They are not considered "movie cameras" so the distinction is hard wired into them.
Dustin Sparks as hard wired as a firmware hack
Legally limited where? Any how do you define a "small point-and-shoot" camera? I've never bought a camera that is artificially limited to 20-30 minutes
It's a taxation or customs/tariff thing, can't remember exactly(not gin, but beer to blame now)
In Europe there is a tax levied on devices capable of recording more than 30 minutes. Manufacturers of mainly still cameras thus limit to 29:59 artificially to avoid having to increase the price for something that's not a main feature.
This explains it quite well: www.tested.com/tech/photography/44445-why-digital-cameras-have-a-30-minute-video-recording-limit/
34:43 there's a definite circle of transparency in the film, in a similar location to the "polished area" on the copper electrode. If that's not a obvious sign, That would be quite disappointing! RIIGGHHT...OKAY...
I noticed that too.
Seems like Clive may have had the right idea at first, then figured it may be due to the material not sticking there very well. I was suprised he didn't go back and second guess his original observation. .. But then again, it may not have anything to do with it at all!?
Bear in mind that we actually get a better view of quite a few things than Clive does. He can't lean right over it because the camera is in the way. And if you're watching on a good-size screen, you're basically using a giant digital magnifier. ;)
The copper migration thing is probably happening on a microscopic level. It seems to be a similar concept to electroplating, which apparently takes ages if you don't have a decent voltage and the right chemical conditions.
You are totally right. I actually watch on a 4 yr old cell phone, I wish it was a bigger screen. I was just thinking that Clive could have seen it during his watching/editing time before he posted it. Thought I'd try to bring it to his attention either way. :)
If it's not completely obvious then I don't like to jump to conclusions. I prefer a definitive reason.
If I go camping on the isle of man can you recommend a place? I like to walk up hills. I'll buy you a beer if you like. ❤😋
There are various camping sites on the IOM and nothing but hills. I'm not sure the best site. Maybe in Laxey?
You said you like to walk up hills. How do you feel about walking down those hills? Or have you found a way to only walk up?
Forever Learning funny 😁I tried to go up Snowdon but failed due to the weather. I wonder if we can go in calmer times
bigclivedotcom thank you. It's my birthday in may, end of may, so I might have enough money to go camping. I'll look up the place you said. Cheers man.
@@johnt.inscrutable1545 You get the train up, have a pint and then walk down.
I just found this guy today and he has the most soothing voice ever doesn’t he
The smell is most probably propylene carbonate. It's not great for you, but it really isn't all that bad either (especially as far as solvents go).
The REAL issue is the lithium salts that are dissolved in that solvent. Soluble Lithium salts are themselves really not something you want to risk getting on your skin (it easily gets absorbed and really fucks up your brain). As for the anion paired with the lithium, there really is no way of knowing. Some of them really aren't that bad, while others readily decompose into such wonderful things as HF (Hydrofluoric Acid) and Phosphine Gas, upon exposure to air, water and/or heat.
All in all, the only thing I'd really be worried about is the small amount of lithium that gets sprayed all over the bench. One day in the future, you WILL touch the bench and afterward go to eat something without washing your hands first, thereby ingesting a few milligrams of Lithium.
Lithium is used as a medication for people with bipolar disorder.
MRLT yes and mercury helps children in vaccines too
Wrong, wrong. The cobalt ions are the bad guys here. The Li+ is quite tasty actually ruclips.net/video/RJh9yTIBY48/видео.html
You realise you're saying this to a large Scottish man who drinks gin while making these videos, don't you? :)
Also, if we're freaking out about dangerous heavy metals, best start prying out those amalgam fillings before the mercury rots your brain ;-)
Or ethylene carbonate.
18650s pretty much behave as any sealed metal cylinder such as a tin of beans containing a liquid - if heated to extremes it may vent -- sometimes violently -- and as ethylene carbonate is flammable, it may or may not ignite depending if it comes into contact with a spark or red hot conductor.
The real concern with lithium cells is not the small amount of lithium they contain, but those that contain carcinogenic cobalt compounds such as most LiPo pouch cells and 18650s with an ICR prefix. These should be recycled and never thrown away - not least because cobalt is currently $80,000 per ton!
Not all 18650s contain cobalt. A browse through wikipedia on any of the many different compounds found in lithium cells will provide a lot of useful information.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_cobalt_oxide
There was the saying that "A cluttered desktop is a sign of a cluttered mind"... Of course, this would follow that the opposite would also be true -- "An empty desktop is the sign of an empty mind"...
Ah black rubber gloves thats what ive been forgetting when attempting science
I recognize the battery, I think I have the same series laptop mine had an i5-3210 and some amd GPU tbh that laptop did quite good for 6 or 8 years the battery died after 4 years of using it it first started turning off at 20% until it got worse and worse until it stoped working on battery at all
Alcohol and possibly exploding batteries, what could go wrong. :)
I left batteries in a laptop for long time and get the same problem. The thing is this batteries have a pressure switch inside and if (protection for overcharging or short circuit/over discharge when this things happen gass gets released and the preasure inside the cell rises whitch makes the preasure switch disconnect the positive terminal) Mine had this switch activated. I found a way (by studying how the batteries are made) to bypass the preasure switch.. but I'm not sure I will reomend doing that because it can be dangerous.
im gonna make a guess whats inside, 1000 AA batteries and an iphone and 3 unicorns
Jusb1066 the iphone may be the reason why it doesn't hold a charge !
You have to be quick to get the unicorn with a hammer.
This is an obvious defect to me. It’s poor adhesion on the anode. This could have been the result of Cu dissolution from the cell sitting at less than 2V for too long.
You could dissolve the graphite off the separator using nmp.
Don't listen to him. They cannot be discharged to zero without causing physical and chemical damage to the cell. Will it work after doing so? Maybe - if it's been done rarely, and never left at zero for long. (I wish I had bookmarked the video series where they tested 1000 identical cells. They were looking at them under an electron microscope to see the exact effects of deep discharges and multiple recharge cycles. They were also testing different electrolytes; the moral of the story: manufacturers know infinitely more than lab geeks.)
I'm convinced they have a 'kill date' built into those control boards inside battery packs. Always seem to stop charging after about 2-3 years. 🤔
*Bare lithium cells stored in a metal container*
Hmm...
Precariously placed in the center, nothing could go wrong
Xgames in the making
You should have tested it for continuity from one side to the other. If it has many small peaces of copper in it self ,maybe it conducts.
Do you like your spudger?
Autoplay brought forth this gem! This video was a pleasant surprise. Fascinating and entertaining. Feel better about 18650 batteries, no longer a scary mystery.
yes the pie plate is coming out yesss hahaha
Love the smell of lithium burning in the morning ! Gave you thumbs up 3 years ago !!!
Yay from Gin & Tonic and black gloves ;)
You are the first person to explain this in a way I can "wrap" my head around. Thanks Clive. Love the accent! (English American and 56).
Egyptian Gin, just add camel dung or sand?
I think it's some sort of pyramid scheme to rip off the clueless.
@green Silver Why not both?
Then you'd need some tonic.
I am really wonder how you managed to open the laptop battery without damaging the plastic cover!
I'm not an electrician but, if you placed a diode between the batteries, would that not stop the reverse charging that was mentioned?
A diode in reverse parallel could limit the reverse charge to 0.6V.
Clive, active bypass diodes could limit reverse bias to just millivolts - they are just mosfets with a charge pump to run the gate
This is why they are used on solar panels to prevent groups of shaded cells from becoming reversed biased and turning into heat sources that could damage the cells, cause hotspots or even cause a fire.
They could be used on lithium cells too for currents
It would also stop normal charging.
You sure about that?
Whether charging or discharging, the cell's anode always stays more positive than the cathode so the diode would never become reverse biased, unless the cell is completely depleted and/or overpowered by the other cells in series.
I understand "diode between the batteries" as putting diodes and batteries in series, which would allow current to only flow in one direction. Hence only either charging or discharging would be possible, depending on the oriente of the diodes you put in place.
Explosion Containment Pie Dish. The old ECPD or Ecpod or short. Very good, carry on.
"I've forgotten again..." Smell that carcinogenic goodness :-) Fire Department: "We could not save the house, but we did find that the fire started in the trap of the kitchen sink. We also think it was strange the the neighbors trash can burst in flames."
This is pretty much what I’ve found in laptop battery packs. 1 cell kills the other it’s in parallel with. Other packs I’ve noticed a few cell balance controllers go wonky and actually cause this issue with one set of the 3 to drain to 0. I’m beginning to wonder what I will find when I pull the programming off of the controller that is suspect which has done the exact same thing to brand new cells after 1 charge cycle. Maybe say, programmed to fail at a certain charge cycle/time ? Sure would be a good way to ensure a company makes money on selling batteries. I’ll come back here and state what I find out. Strange how batteries that I have built have yet to fail after years of use and a few thousand cycles without any noticeable drop in capacity.
Oh, neat - please update with your findings. What kind of code would that be, on those charger controller chips?
Compromise, Alumium. You're Welcome!
Oh yes I remember the self combusting battery episode, quite a fun ep that one was :D
21:31 Louis Rossman appears!
all these comments talking about batteries exploding... I've had a neodymium magnet spontaneously disintegrate in all directions around the room. found a chunk of it lodged in the bottom plastic frame of one of my monitors. got lucky it didnt pop the screen. china china china... I swear the magnet chunks and bits were going the speed of a bullet.
Just on it's own? I know they can shatter if they collide with each other.
@@bigclivedotcom I heard a pop then a bunch of clanking sounds as the small bb sized chunks were scattering about. not sure if two of the magnets warped into eachother from almost a foot apart or what. They are super strong so I can't rule that out. What I do know is when i looked away they were stationary on my desk and spaced far enough. (so i thought)
37 minutes... why can't you just drop them in the little cardboard recycling box at the store, like normal people. :-P
Here's the thing. If you (yes you) watched all 37 minutes you (yes you again) are really in no position to complain. Stopping early or skipping through are always options ........................... the rest of us enjoy watching.
I think you may have taken my comment slightly too literally there, Nick. That was intended as a poke at me watching someone take a dud battery apart for 37 minutes.
Normal people as you call them don't put used batteries in recycling boxes . That is only for recycle geeks :P
@@IANHANDS Actually, it is people who don't like toxic heavy metals leaching into their ground (read drinking) water from the landfill where they end up if one just chucks them in the trash. If Clive wants to draw that stuff in because it smells nice to him, that's his business. Making that decision for an entire demographic isn't something I feel is my right. Recycling in this case just means proper disposal, so even if needless waste is your thing you should be on board with this one.
Usually, one will have an internal short and pull the rest down. Maybe from reverse charging or just an internal short? Either way it only takes one battery you could kill the whole pack!
I have one that looks identical to what you have on the table in front of me but my batteries are blue. You can replace the one battery and still have a fairly decent battery pack.
I use these lithium cells every day. I am a Vaper, and use mechanical mods. This has been one of the most interesting videos I've seen in a long time! Thanks!
Bill Carini
vape naysh bro
Probably not the ones in the video because they are probably going to be of the low discharge variety
Aand I just googled them and they are only rated for 5.6A maximum discharge, so you could only use them for tanks that use less than 17w
Reviews+Tutorials I stick to VTC5A for my mechs. I actually have been running some LG 20650's in a mech and they are fantastic!
Darth Vaper?
Vapers are the Vegans of smoke. They need to tell everyone that they are one.
My mum had a samsung laptop, I wouldn't recommend them. It was the biggest pile of annoying crap I had ever used.
I gained an unwanted/unloved old Samsung laptop. It had started out with Windows Vista. Then been upgraded (whether officially or unofficially) to Windows 10. For all I know it had been Windows 7 and/or Windows 8 in between.
It now has Linux on it, which makes it somewhat more usable. Only problem is Linux recently dropped support for the WiFi chippery in it, so if I need WiFi I'll either have to boot into an older kernel or buy a WiFi dongle.
22:08 "the smell is actually really pleasant but people keep saying _OH don't breath it!_ "
A pleasant thing isn't necessarily safe for you. An analogy using taste... Lead (II) acetate was once a sweetener.
Hear, hear Wolfin. I managed a chemical plant that manufactured polyurethane adhesive in twin 4oz tube dispensers with a mix tip (like epoxy twin tubes). The main chemicals used for the urethane reactions were isocyanates, clear syrupy liquids that had only a faint smell of fruit (apple, pear, peach). To the uninitiated they appeared relatively benign. However, they are deceptive. Being able to detect their faint pleasant smell at all meant that one was being exposed to an unsafe concentration level. As with many other dangerous materials, initial, and even repetitive, exposure sometimes did not immediately manifest the harm that's been done. The isocyanates are also powerful sensitizers. This means that each exposure increases one's sensitivity to the next exposure, i.e. the level of exposure required for profound respiratory and other symptoms of toxicity to present is decreased. Direct exposure of the skin to the finished product or precursors would cause no apparent harm if the area was briefly flushed with water (which catalyzed the formation of the inert polymer). If left untreated, however, a lesion would develop as with sensitizers like poison ivy, oak, sumac...etc. The method of producing the product (compounding, packaging, testing, quality control and equipment maintenance) meant that all company personnel had the opportunity to come in contact with clear, mostly odorless, reactive material on any, and all, surfaces. Opening any door could contaminate oneself. This was especially problematic as regards the bathroom door-as you can well imagine. Over time, depending on the thickness of the deposit, moisture in the air polymerized the isocyanates rendering them inert. Unfortunately, although I provided half-mask respirators (HEPA /activated charcoal filters) & nitrile gloves, performed lung function & respirator fit tests and gave initial, as well as ongoing safety training on chemical hazards and protective equipment, almost every new employee had to experience at least one incidence of poison ivy-like rash. The rash doesn't spread, it can itch a little bit and disappears in a couple of days, but it spooked the heck out of people. The new hires had little understanding of the importance of my rash prevention warnings, no matter how simple and emphatic I made them. They all, of course, no matter how small the lesion, with no exception, insisted on seeing a doctor, thereby creating an insurance premium increasing incident reportable to Workman's Compensation as a work related injury requiring a doctor's care.
"If your workbench is cluttered it's a sign if science happening."
Huh, science is happening all over my whole house 😅
That's the best type of house.
Wow, that explaination of what happens when you reverse charge the cell makes perfectly sense. But wasn't there some degrading effect on the capacity when you discharge the battery well below 3.0V? I thought you would lose a significantly part of the cell capacity in that case?
As with many things; "It Depends". Some battery chemistries are self-destructive below a certain point...2.5v/cell or lower, I think, but I can't swear to that. That is a common low-voltage cutoff level, though, so it must be at-or-near an important value to avoid destruction or else BMS's would push things farther to get more out of every charge. Some cells, by design and/or luck, can handle being run down to 0 volts. Ironically enough, I think leaving them at 1-1.5V/cell might be more damaging than 0 volts since 1.5V would maybe allow enough power for 'galvanic shenanigans' to happen inside the cell. I'll have to look into that...I was just realizing that, because I use like 1.65VDC for nickel-plating stuff exactly for that kind of reason, so dunno.
I recently bought some used battery packs to strip out the cells and reuse them in packs of my own making. One of the sets of cells were green "Sony Fukushima STG US18650GR-G5" battery cells, and they were FLAT-flat-dead. Even if they only died when shipped, they'd been flat-dead for at least a week (0.02v in the 'best' cell, and these are unprotected cells) and I didn't have much hope for them. I had a trio of NiMH cells right to hand, so when I stripped the Li-Ions out I thought, "...why not. SCIENCE!" And thus was Science performed upon them; I dumped power from the NiMH to the Li-Ions at 0 volts, touch-touching them for only-a-moment in case they caught fire or even sparked, but they didn't even do that much. I touched them for a few moments, then gave it 30 seconds and checked the cell's power...1.4V. Wut. And it did drain slowly-but-steadily, so it was maybe settling still or maybe it was ruined internally, but...eh, whatever! I fed it to my universal charger...which brought them to 1.8V, which seems to be the 'NiMH cutoff voltage' of the charger since they OBVIOUSLY couldn't be Li-Ions at not-even-2-volts, right? Back to the NiMH cells, dumped them more power...and once they got above 2.1vdc I fed the cells to my charger and told it to charge-discharge-check them. It did so, with me warily keeping an eye on them for the like 10 hours or whatever it took to finish to its satisfaction.
The result? The 0.0-0.02v cells stripped from that pack have, one and all, recovered to (mostly) voltage-stable cells. One of them, tested just now, was at 4.12v, most were 4.15-4.17. They tested out to have 2050ish mAh of capacity according to my BT-C3400 charger. All show about 100 milliohms of resistance, so that's nice of them as well. So those cells were dead-and-dead, but woke right up...were they lucky? Do they have a good chemistry? Was my 'dumping triple-NiMH "18650 cells" (not actually 18650's but the exact same size and shape) power straight into it a lucky choice of methodology? Noooo idea.
Four other good purple LG's that should have been 3k's or so do not even *pretend* to take a charge. They too arrived dead-and-dead, and they remain dead, NiMh's and all having helped them not in the least.
So will you lose significant capacity? 8 were dead, and mostly-recovered. 4 purples were also dead, and remain utterly dead...so my totally useless stat on that so far is "1 out of 3 0-volt Li-Ions is effectively destroyed by the process" as far as I can tell. :) But you're right, like the flat-packs from jump-starters, I think those die /quickly/ below 2 volts, and I know I've read about how bad it is to let li-ions self-discharge to 0, but I don't know everything by far. Some survive it, some don't, some get their capacity crippled because lithium or copper come out of the electrolyte solution or something, which maybe was what happened to this guy's cells. Sadly, a 'copper infusion failure' might have needed a chromatograph to identify it. He was hoping for a 'coppery-spot' but I suspect the actual failure is just a vague-haze of copper that won't even show as 'a different color' to our naked eyes.
With both the speed of self discharge that you showed, and the low current draw, I believe the internal short would be close to the tap on that electrode. The etched bit close to the center of the spiral is making the entire rest of the cell unchargable. Great job on finding that failure point Clive!
At 21:30 when Clive imitates a giddy teen know-it-all is just priceless!
I do l love watching your videos, well for the most part, because I always learn something. For example talking about that damn lead free solder, in my Class A motor home, there is a back up camera, well you need one as you are driving a 36 foot house down the highways at 65 miles per hour, and it is a long way to the back window, which has the shades drawn anyhow as it is a bedroom window. The monitor has given me trouble ever since I purchased it, so in year 2 of my ownership, I pulled it out and tore it down, only to find several broken solder joints. So I heated up the old iron and re-soldered them by simply melting that old solder and allowing it to re-flow. The following year, the same problem! So again, I pulled it out (not an easy chore!) and again re-flowed that solder. She worked another 3,000 miles and now she is doing the same thing. So this time, once I get her out, I am planning on adding some of my wonderful 60/40 lead solder to the mix and see if that holds. The monitor was made in 2003.
OH I was going to mention, the only problem with watching your great videos, is the tennancy of your smoooooooth voice to put me to sleep. My wife keeps telling me that I should watch your videos in bed since I have a hard time getting to sleep at night because I keep getting these long naps at about the middle of the third of your videos I re-watch daily.
The sounds of someone shoving their fist in a glove, then popping it, will remind most men of their first date with their doctor.
hehe, nice 😊
Internally trackpads/keyboards are usually PS/2 or I2C, even to this day. As far as I understand USB for internal devices just never took off, I guess because the engineers are going to maybe already be using I2C, and PS/2 has just been so ubiquitos and doesn't have as many compatibility issues as USB.
Can you use good salvaged batteries from DIY power tools in other things ? Like power banks?
Yes you can.
I've found using a small pipe cutter and taking the top off where the line is is a much easier way of opening them.
Oh, nice - that'd do it. :D
I've never had a samsung product I would call quality and their after-sales support is pathetic at best, and non-existent at worst. But they have a helluva great marketing team and manage to convince (or is that confuse) the general public into believing they make a great product. A little tip I learned when trying to get them to honour their warranty on my TV: when you call in for support the first thing you do is (in a very friendly manner) ask the agent how you can get added to the list for the class action lawsuit. Surprisingly (or not) this tends to get paid attention to.
I have opened quite a few old laptop battery packs and its always a 3s pack made out of 18650s
Normal sized ones have 2 cells in parallel and bigger ones have 3 cells in parallel.
Its quite a good source for lower spec 18650s if you can get them cheap or for free.
I used to go to my local recycling center and ask politely and would usually be allowed to take a few
I would advise to leave the nickel tabs if you want to do the same but dont have a spot welder, that way you dont have to solder to the cells directly (which might damage them) but can instead solder to the tabs
Does this guys wife ever come in and nag him to do chores? He must spend a lot of time in the shop
I almost caught my trailer on fire messing with a jump start battery.I did the force charge thing like you did.(This was 2 yrs ago before I saw this video).Well I put it away after unsuccessfully trying,and began smelling a horrible aroma coming from the closet.I quickly thru it out the door and it popped and burst into flames! It scared the be-jesus out of me thinking how close I came to possibly dying in a trailer fire.Reminded me the episode of " Minder" when Arthur is erroneously diagnosed with a fatal illness and the caravan burns up.lol.I'm a Floridian but love UK TV shows.
When an 18650 battery went completely dead at 0V it can be recovered. The internal CID (current interruption device) popped out. It's a 10 second fix. Watch here! ruclips.net/video/1w3Tv1Jg0ps/видео.html
Is it possible you have been handling a fully charged cell? As with you previous “accident” one? The “seal” mechanism you mentioned “disconnects” the cell and therefore cannot be charged and is at 0V. But the cell under the seal may still be charged. Search a video: “How the CID works”.
TheBlackadder Edmund he showed current flowing through at almost 0v, ruling that out.
Plus if it was fully charged, you'd be able to tell from the insides, and this clearly wasn't.