EV vs Petrol Fiat 500 Real Running Costs Over 3 Years. Maths with Geoff.
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- Опубликовано: 17 янв 2023
- Join me for a little bit of MATHS as I take a look at what it costs to run a Fiat 500 Fiat 500 42kw 118hp Electric and compare it with a 1.0 MHEV Dolcevita Plus Euro 6. Which is cheaper to run over three years, and what would I recommend? A little maths lesson with poorly Geoff in the sunshine.
#Fiat #ElectricCar #EV #Fiat500 
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![It's now cheaper to run a Diesel than an EV ! [Must know numbers for EV ownership]](/img/1.gif)
...plus you can factor in another £900-£1200 to install a fast home charging point for your fancy new EV too!
Add in expensive coffee and snacks if you have to charge at a service station.
A small car like that will be fine with a 13amp outdoor socket, much cheaper for an electrician to put in. Will still charge the battery fully in 20 hrs or put 100 miles of range on in an overnight charge which should cover most people's daily driving.
Fancy EV chargers are a needless luxury unless you do over 100 miles driving every single day of the week.
this fool is adding up prices from 2020 ? electric is now 3 x the price and it costs 20p a mile EV , my diesel is 9p a mile and £20 tax a year not £170 x 3 ???? O'Dear
@@curtisducati I’m with British Gas ev tariff and at night for 5 hours it’s 10 pence a kWh so it’s around £6 for 180 miles it’s very cheap
@@stuartodell2828 But the car is not cheap soooooo
Agree 100% with your analysis also did the public not learn when we were incentivised to buy Diesel with lower RFL the same will happen with EV once the tax take starts to dip and all those Zero bands will vanish fast!
I think it would have added something to have included the insurance costs and the residual values to complete the 3 year ownership cost.
Absolutely, what is the "real" depreciation rate of an EV?
Thanks Geoff, great video. But to be honest I knew all this already. I have a small garage in Dublin where we specialize in repairing and servicing Land Rovers. On several occasions now I have been asked by my customers if they should buy an EV. I’m always astonished that they really haven’t thought things through, but when I point out the problems it’s like turning on the lights in a dark room for them.
and what problems are those then,. list here so I can debunk them all.
@@organickevinlondon I`ll start you off with the range and using child labour to mine the lithium.
@@chriswilson3009 yer not very clued in to begin with, as lithium is not exactly mined, as it basically comes from salt flats, and no child labour is used to mine Lithium either, you mean Cobalt, dont you, there is a BIG DIFFERNCE between Lithium and Cobalt, so lets go, with the child labour and Cobalt mining first,
EVs are a NEW thing arent they, now WHAT else do you think has been using Cobalt from before EVs were around, how about Catalytic Converters, in ICE vehicles, yes thats correct, Cobalt is used for Catalytic Converters AND its ALSO used to remove the Sulphur from petrol too, currently EV manufacturers are looking into not using Cobalt in the future in EV batteries, about 80% of the Worlds Cobalt comes from the Congo in Africa, there are some substancial Cobalt mines there, with big waste tips too, THIS is where the child labour thing comes in, and not in the established business Cobalt mines, the people using child labour in the Cobalt mining industry, basically operate "illegally" i.e. without proper permission from the correct people to mine the Cobalt within the basic rules of the mining industry, it is basically "the parents" of the child miners, who are the ones, "exploiting their own children" by making them mine the Cobalt, to earn money for their families, this is not the only industry that does this either, diamond mining, the same, gold mining, the same, virtually every mineral mining around the World, the same, 3rd World child labour in the clothing industry, is basically the same too, me personally, I try to research EVERYTHING I buy use etc, to find out if its a good or bad product.
How about the RANGE of an EV,
I've got a Mini EV, its manufacturers stated range is 140 miles, but, realistically, in the coldest weather, I get at least 100 miles,
thats not a lot is it, I live in London, and never really venture more than 50 miles out of London, so I dont need an EV with a range of over 100 miles at all, as I never do over 90 miles in one day, I bet you think that, with the lights, radio and windscreen wipers on, I wouldnt get 100 miles out of it,
all of those things, are powered from a separate 12 volt battery, which has nothing to do with the EVs motor at all, as the power to drive the EV comes from more powerful batteries, that are well over 12 volts, using the heater takes power from the drive batteries, and I may lose 1 or 2 miles of range with the heater on in short bursts on a cold day, as for charging an EV up, there are about 4 different levels of charging, 3 KiloWatts 7 KiloWatts 22 KiloWatts and 50 KiloWatts, my Mini EV battery is 32 KiloWatts, if its at 0% (you never run an EV battery down to 0%) to charge it to 100% using a 3KW charge, it would take, about 11 hours, because 3 (KW) times by 11 (hours) makes 33 KW, at 7 KW it would take about 4 hours and 1/2 hours, as 7 (KW) times by 4 1/2 (hours) = about 31 (KW) charging at 22 kw would take about 1 and 1/2 hours and at 50kw it would take about 50 mins,
I use a local 7 kw charging point about 1/2 mile from my home, and it costs NOTHINTG to charge up my EV, thats right NOTHING, there are quite a few, FREE EV charging points all over the UK too,
to charge it up, I check on an app first, to see if the charging point is not being used,
and when I see it isnt, I just drive the 2 mins to get to it, plug my EV in, then get my folding bike out of the boot and simply cycle home, (I plan my recharging so it gets charged up, when I'm not going to be using it, and I NEVER sit in the car, while I'm waiting for it to charge up, as I simply go home instead) then when its charged up, to whatever percentage I want, which is usually 100% I cycle to my EV, unplug it, and put the fold up bike in the boot and drive home home, this is a totally different system compared to a petrol or diesel vehicle,
(I used to own a petrol Mini before I got the EV Mini), it took me about 1 month, to get my charging routine organised, I could also charge it up at home too using a 3 pin plug charger, at 3KW, and would have to pay for that via my electric bill, right then, YOU can tell me exactly what you KNOW about EVs
or what you have wrongly assumed about them, or the Myths other people try to pretend are real, which I think would be quite a few things,
@@organickevinlondon Don't know how long it took you to type that lot out but I can assure you, like me, most will just scroll on by. You EV nutters refuse to accept any facts that prove EV's are on the way out before they got in. Mugs.
Last 3 years ? Electric is so dear now it works out at 20p a mile for EV cars and 9p for a diesel . oops.....
The elephant in the room is INSURANCE. Nobody talks about the higher cost that an EV incurs.
You beat me to it lol
Also tyres. EVs are far heavier therefore tyre life is significantly shorter. Plus in 2025 they will no longer be tax exempt.
@Retired Bore Neither of which will be as cheap as that Volvo (or anything even older) which can be insured for peanuts on classic car insurance. Typically under £100.
A lot heavier so more tyre changes
@@jmills1549 Not really, because tyres are designed and specified to each vehicle. e.g. HGV tyres last at least 80-100k miles (around 4-5 times a typical car tyre, not counting re-treads). So the EV tyres could simply be higher specification (e.g. Extra Load), or the vehicle could require higher pressure. It's the air in the tyres that supports the vehicle afterall.
I am very happy for anyone who wants to buy an EV, petrol or diesel car. Everyone to their own thing. However most right minded democratic believing people, detest Government and the pressure groups who legislate to ban IC engines. There has been little or no debate about the costs of putting in the charging infrastructure, the extra electricity generation required, the environmental impact of mining all of the minerals required for batteries and finally their disposal. This is a country that produces 1% of the worlds CO2, so where is the cost to benefit? Answer is diddly squat and we are all being conned.
Unfortunately, the green evangelists are blinkered to facts....
Problem is, most people and that includes all designers, engineers and various "advisors" forget that IC engine is not only used in cars to drive around city centre and goes from Asda to Starbucks in one charge... I work in heavy machinery industry and let me tell you that runnkng half of these machines with electricity and most likely middle of nowhere in adverse weather conditions won't be possible...
Yep and we'll charge them using wind and solar power which is only 10% efficient and destroys the environment and Eco systems 🤔
Don't forget that half the price of petrol is duty and vat, electric has 5% vat on it.
So the fuel for the petrol car is actually much cheaper, it is just the government making it more expensive.
I bot a 2007 Corsa 1.2 3dr for £800 6yrs10months ago. There’s now 96k on it with FSH. Still on original clutch and a great wee driver. £30,000 for an electric car, aye right 🤣🤣🤣 Also, up here 🏴 we produce less co2 in a year than China does in a day. Yet our supreme leader (idiot) Sturgeon, demands 🏴 leads the world in the battle for climate change 🤦♀️ Scotland is a cold wet windswept country for most of the year, we would WELCOME some fekking warming up here!! 🤨
Your mathematical calculations have earned you an A-grade at GCSE.
It was year 7 maths though. ;-)
Geoff's Cost Survey Exercise....?
Nowadays Geoff's Maths would earn him a Masters Degree
Except that the fast charge only charges 60 percent of the battery (20 to 80 percent) according to fiat's 9.83p per mile and a full charge (0 to 100 percent) would cost 16.38p for an average of 11.32p and not the 8.045p.
@@fernarias
Too much information. That's an A-grade at A-Level. Peace out!
When I was a young boy in the 1960s my father was the workshop manager for a large dealership in Glasgow called RS LOGAN we used to go to Cornwall he could have taken any car he wanted from jaguars Humber hawk wolseley 1660 or 6/99 beautiful big cars but no he took us in a fiat 500 from Glasgow to perrinporth Cornwall I’ll never forget that journey and I’m now 67
Sticking with patrol, don t need to worry about charging
Sticking to EV, takes 10s to charge mine, don't have to queue at the smelly station and go off my way to fill it up
@@vladzis until you go on a long trip, then it becomes a time consuming, anxiety filled disaster like all EV's. Good around town, shite on a run.
@@stevezodiac491 I’m doing 500-2000 miles a week, no issues since 2011. Been in Eurotrip back in 2017 too, and leaving to Croatia in June too, what should I be worried about, please elaborate?
@@vladzis smug ev owner 🥴
Golf diesel ♥️
Eventually depending on the power grid they might ask you to charge your cars at a certain time. In many cases that would be hard to do considering people's lifestyles.
Already happening in certain parts of the world like Switzerland and the place where most environmentalists hang out which is California.
It’s a control tactic
There will be no asking, they'll be telling you when you can charge up. Anyway, I don't think they give a fig about our private car ownership, so I'm not the least bit concerned about the EV argument, if the Parasites get their way we won't have our own cars. Remember what Klaus said, 'you'll own nothing and be happy'!
Bad news is.....since June 2022 every new charging point sold in the UK has to be wi-fi enabled and connected. There is now a situation where your shiny new charging point will not work between 8am and 10am AND 5pm and 9pm. Yep, FACT!
@@captainpugwash3791 and yet within six miles I have two twenty four hour filling stations!😀.
And this is why I just dump 10k into a low mile clio diesel, cheaper to buy, will breeze 130k+, looks good, drives good, good range, good power, good spec... Bad fuel cost currently, however it works in my situation and no surprises on the horizon with batteries and electric woes..
With cars, unless you have to count every penny, get something that you actually like and don't mind wasting fuel on. If you are gonna spend time in your box on wheels, make it one you like, and in turn won't mind spending more on fuel.
For me, I had an interesting duo of cars at one point, a 2.2 dci Nissan Almera tino and a BMW E36 318i. The Nissan was faster and much more economical, but I hated being in it. And the BMW wasn't fast, and wasn't very economical with regards to its power out put and capacity, but I loved the car for what it was and how it made me feel, and especially in this age of techno boxes on wheels that strive to do "everything", it feels so good to have a car that is pure and knows what it is.
Back in the 90s I borrowed a new 318i off my boss, 1994 registered. Very nice car. Earlier than that I had a new, 1989 registered 325i for work. Even earlier....another company car, a twelve months old 1986 registered 318i. I really liked that car, did a lot of miles in it.
Each to their own. My answer is a 2016 Mercedes E class. It goes as fast as I want and has every comfort you could wish for. I like this as you can drive for 3 or four hours and still be fresh and comfortable. It is a big lump of car I feel safe in but then I have managed 72mpg on a steady run while it averages 55mpg. It was not cheap for a six year old car but it will hold its value and I intend to keep it as long as they keep selling fuel for it or as long as I keep driving, whichever comes first.
@@grolfe3210 Main problem with that sort of car is the parts cost and repair difficulty.
Sure while it's only a few years old, it's not gonna have any massive issues, but with time, modern complexity and built in obsolescence will rear it's ugly head.
Second that that’s why I drive an Audi R8 😂
@@grolfe3210 totally agree, my choice was a 61 series two landy, everywhere at 45mph and just loved it, 20mpg on average was a little hard or just under £200 per month, but the finance on a modern motor would have been around £150- £170 per month, so my driving pleasure was actually cheaper than my friends 45mpg Sierra, today if I restore it it will be tax exempt and with a nice diesel it should be good for 35-40mpg, starting to look too good to resist!😀.
Amazing how many people I have spoken to that have financed a car for over £30k worth of debt but want to tell everyone the tax is free😂. Oh, and I did go for an old Volvo V70, so far costs over 30,000 miles are £100 for 2 diy services. Passed 3 MOTs with no advisories and 50mpg from the diesel. Paid £3k for the car so it owes me nothing and equally I owe nobody else anything - freedom!
Do they have salary sacrificing in the UK? In Australia you can do a novated lease on a car every 3-5 years. Just about everybody I work with does it.
@@coover65 some firms offer it but for the most part the average worker has not had pay increases in line with the cost of living since before the pandemic, so people are becoming more anxious about being able to keep their home and feed their family than financing new cars. Early days yet but its starting to hit with early handbacks and defaulting on finance payments.
@@andrewbaxter9395 I see what you mean. I just looked online, and it seems Australia sold nearly as many new vehicles as the UK in 2022, yet we've only got 38% of the UK population. You read and hear about how "so many Australians are doing it tough", then see how many brand new Dodge Rams, Hiluxes, Rangers, Landcruisers and SUVs there are driving around. Best wishes to all in the UK.
Another great maths session on ev versus petrol , but what about when EVs have to pay tax and replacing batteries
Yes my EV is 7 years old on March 1st. After only 30 k miles from new it has lost 25% of it's initial range. I for one will not be buying another. All the fears about battery life are true.
I also have an over 14 year old E Class Mercedes Diesel, it still has a range of 650 miles and does 51 mpg on a run and is as functional as the day i bought it new- perfect !
@@stevezodiac491 and what they don't tell you is never let it drop past 20% battery life and only fast charge occasionally as can damage the battery packs life span
@@stevezodiac491 Most peoples experience with EV's is one and done, back to the diesel.
Who would buy a 8 year old EV without asking for a new battery pack ? Who selling a 8 year old EV would fit a new battery pack ?
That means the second hand price of a 8 year old EV would be next to nothing to warrant taking a gamble you will get another 8 to 10 years out the battery pack.
@@stevezodiac491 first of all, you're lying, because that's the case of battery warranty on your Nissan (because according to your words, that can only be Nissan), since it's 2016 model, it has 30kWh battery and had a warranty for 100k miles, or 8 years, whichever comes first, and battery isn't lower than 9 bars, so you're saying that yours is still under warranty and still has more than a year of warranty left on it. Another thing I don't understand from your lie, even if it's true: what's the point to dash £25k (yes, Leaf, even Tekna spec was never at £30k) for car, which barely doesn't 5k miles a year?! Doesn't make financial sense.
Why I think you have Nissan Leaf, or ying: back in 2016 you could get very limited amount of EVs, of was Nissan Leaf, Renault Zoe (doesn't have degradation issues, doesn't fall into price category you've "paid"), BMW i3 (doesn't have battery issues, doesn't fall into £30k territory), triplets (doesn't fall into £30k territory, doesn't have degradation issues), Hyundai Ioniq (introduced in 2017, also doesn't fall to £30k territory), and definitely not Tesla, as back in 2016 you could only get Model S, which back then even used one didn't fall into £30k territory.
So yeah, classic bash, without any facts to back it up, because all stupid, they know nothing, no one will find out anyways, oops
100% accurate Geoff. I’m with you on the purchase of an old Volvo mind haha.
Yeah I’m biased 😂
@@GeoffBuysCars 20p a mile now to run an EV never mind 2 or 3 years ago you numpty , my diesel is 9p a mile and we all got a £3000 a year electric bill aswel to cover lost petrol and diesel taxes
It's a similar thing with heat pumps but the running costs are significantly higher!
@kevone I got one fitted from free (£12,000 actual cost) and it's resulted in bills that I would estimate to be 3 times higher than kerosene with a December leccy bill of £380!!!
Ye there the new scam,rattling noisey fans,expensive as hell
@@mushroom4051 and don't work when it's cold!
@@sambrooks7862 yep we always get americas scams 20 yrs down the line and told its new exciting tech,but really its bllx
@@mushroom4051 👍
Very interesting comparisons. Here in Australia we don't have the Fiat 500 EV yet, and the 500 Lounge sells for about the equivalent of £15,420 drive away or less in other states. 95RON for 981 litres would cost about £981 (@$1.80/l or £1.00/litre). Some states offer free registration, while others tax EV users for mileage, so there's a huge difference in EV costs depending on which Australian state you live in. One newspaper article said that EVs here cost about 10c (5.5p) a Km in electricity charging. Even with free electricity, you're only saving 20c/km which is a lot to offset the higher price of an EV compared to it's ICE equivalent. Based on the average distance travelled by Australians each year, that's 5 years to recoup the saving. Australia lags behind many countries with EV sales, and dual cab 4x4s and SUVs make up the biggest sellers here.
10 to 1, when we all have EV's the free electricity becomes a reality check and now costs the same as ⛽️ but who knows, if you want to capture the market, subsidise it, until everyone has it, then bang on the charges
Yes it will be the same price as petrol to run your house in the future… everyone will buy diesel generators and plug them into their mains because… well electricity will be the same price as diesel… and if you haven’t got a generator then you won’t be able to put beer in your fridge… or food type stuff which is far less important… I knew this would happen too… trick everyone into buying a washing machine then ramp up the cost of electricity x 1000%… all the dishwasher companies and energy retailers are in cahoots with each other… I’m not standing for this anymore, I’m calling on all Australians and other nationalities to be part of a revolution and take back our extension leads and plug them all into a giant power board at the brown coal power stations… who’s with me?
You all taking about using cost- fuel but what about saving money on service? no oil, no all enigne stuff which is needed to change? I think we need more time to see if it is really more comfortable to pockets and nature. Energy can be also more green in the future so mayby prices can be different? Technology is changing. However i love my petrol car and i will be missing.
@@magdalenah1 From what I hear what you save on such maintenance is lost to the higher EV price plus if you decide to keep it long enough, the battery replacement cost.
@@coover65 I read about such a case when the battery died after 7 years and the cost was as much as 3 models of this car. Only that it was a test model and the battery will be replaced presumably by the manufacturer. For me it is not fair that now we will produce eco garbage within the framework of eco cars. It is better to invest in clean fuels.
make sure you use duracell batteries, they last longer
Bunny power!! 🐰 😂
Or energizer it can bring little miss cupcake back from the dead easy enough. So a car should be no problem.
My wife has a Nissan Leaf 40, bought from new, now in its third year of ownership.
This is the real world economy that I believe that we get from it. The range claimed by Nissan is 168 miles but we believe it is more like 120, maybe a little more but we have never been brave enough to drive it with less than 10% capacity.
We only use domestic electricity (7kW home charger) so at the moment we pay 36p per kWh. Not this is under the government £2500 cap which was supposed to rise to £3000 (43p per kWh) on April 1st but the government deferred the increase by 3 months.
When charging I'm going to assume 90% efficiency, that is a realistic estimate but it may be a little better.
That means a full charge of 40Wh uses 44kWh and costs 44 x 36p = 1,584p
We get 120 miles so the real world cost per mile is 1584/120 = 13.2p per mile
My son has a Seat Leon petrol (110PS) realistically get 40mpg. Petrol is current 136p per litre so his fuel economy is 15.5p per mile.
And before anyone raises it - the discounted (off peak) electricity tariffs. This is where you get some hours after midnight at a heavily reduced rate - the idea is that you charge your EV overnight on the cheap rate. But please look at these carefully, yes it is cheap for a few hours off-peak but at all other times it is more expensive than the standard rate. So it really depends on how much of your electricity usage can be done in those early hours each morning. When I looked at it the overall cost worked out more expensive - but everyone's situation is different so do the maths to check whether you will be saving or losing. Some people defending the tariff say that you can put your washing machine, dryer, dishwasher on timers to run when you are asleep - note that every appliance manufacturer states that you must not use your appliances unattended - however unlikely it is a risk and in the event you may find yourself uninsured.
I think the biggest mistake when it comes to the cost of the EV is parts degradation.
An EV is heavier by a LOT.
Increased wear on Tires Shocks Brakes Joints etc.
Literally all the moving parts you have to look after in a normal car will degrade a hell of a lot faster in an EV
I think part of the thing with these small city cars is that they don't have a tremendous amount of battery, so they inherently won't have the tremendous amount of weight relative to more Americanized EVs. I do have some concerns with brakes but that's more for the mass market since I can just do those myself provided I don't have to program for new pad thickness. The power train should hopefully be much more robust and require substantially less maintenance. Ideally we would get to the point where battery packs could be replaceable and we would keep more cars on the road for longer instead of continuing the cycle of it going into further and further disrepair. If battery technology can bring costs down then. This could really be fantastic long term for people that own these second hand. Realistically, you can get a very robust ball joint and bushings and shocks no, it easily handle the weight of these smaller cars especially if you're running them on tires with greater sidewall compliancy instead of little rubber bands that will transfer more energy into all of the components. I feel like middle class didn't really know what they were signing up for as they upped their wheel size and now instead of $300 for a set of tires a lot of them are looking at 700 to 1200 for a basic commuter. Much more expensive brake systems. Not to mention the new challenges of compliance and cars are just much more expensive albeit more capable than cars from a couple decades ago. Now we're into the weird zone of selecting tires for electric vehicles where we want extremely low rolling resistance which changes how various manufacturers want to approach the construction of a tire and how much we will give up. It will really be up to Europe to establish the standards that trickle stateside with things like how much tire particulate is cast into the air. I think the used car versus new car debate is kind of stupid because with the depreciation curve of cars it's almost never fair to the new vehicle.
All this said, I still think it was really good for the governments to create the incentives to get all of this underway so that the companies will have incentive to continue to invest in the research and improvement of the electric platforms. We're still somewhat early in the bell curve and I don't think we're white there as far as value for the messes, but we're a lot closer than we used to be.
Great video. I wonder how the second hand market will fair with EV’s regarding the batteries and replacement of. Currently the majority of houses don’t have a home charge point…a new village of 1000+ houses is being built close to where I live with not a charge point in sight and speaking to electricians the network can’t support fast chargers going into all homes. I saw my first recovery charge van attending a EV on Sunday at 2.30pm; I passed back at 5.30 and it was still there 😳
I have a friend with a Tesla and last year Tesla shut down the home charging point and closed their account…Tesla could not explain why and it took 2 days of communication before it was reinstated. It’s so easy to click a key and “the people didn’t see”
Great comment Ian....!! I too passed my first stranded Tesla. Half on and half off the road, coned off with a police car diverting traffic
@@GeoffBuysCars there are over half a million EVs on the road in the UK, so you have seen ONE broken down at the side of the road, it was probably driven by, someone that ignored their range warning, as Teslas can easily do 250 miles,
range doesnt usually enter a Tesla drivers head, recently I took my Mini EV for a drive in my local forest, during the snowy weather and saw, DOZENS of abandoned ICE vehicles, including 4 x 4s, at the side of roads there, does that mean that, EVs are "kings of the road in snow" no gears, clutch, traction control included, (I NEVER had that with my ICE Mini as standard) EV motor functions perfectly no matter how cold it is,
WHY were all of those ICE vehicles DUMPED at the side of those snowy roads ????????????????????????, an ICE Porsche had conked out on one uphill section of road, that I breezed up in my EV Mini,
even the local off road 4 x 4 club, out in the snow, were blown out of the water, by my EV Mini's capabilities in such conditions,
and I had the heater on too,
it weighs 150 kilos more than an ICE Mini,
and as the batteries are basically in its floor, that gives a Mini EV a lower centre of gravity, compared to the equal ICE Mini,
that I used to own, and the EV Mini has almost perfect 50/50 front rear wheel
weight distribution too, "it basically SHITS all over its ICE equivalent, in the road handling department", (this comes from an ex international trucker, "a PROPER DRIVER", that once drove a fully loaded 40 ton Scania 143, 450, (thats a 14.3 litre V8, with 450 bhp) at 100 mph on an empty Spanish motorway at 3 am one morning,
40 tons at 100 mph, takes some beating,
I do miss driving in snow, especially on the Monte Blanc route, no need for snow chains, just lift the lift axle up, stick the diff lock on, and "yer away with the mixer",
as a "real driver" I would recommend anyone to drive the N623 from Santander to Burgos or vice versa in Spain, its a bit twisty and steep, but the scenery is spectacular, one section is a 1 in 4 hill, took a fully loaded 40 tonner on that too, near to a village called Bolacin, "coudnt stop laughing at that on a roadsign).
@@organickevinlondon 50/50 weright distrubution is not ideal,a bot more of the weight at rearis better so that not too much weight leans on front wheel when under braking, so more equally disturbiuted weight on all wheels, no rear swinging out as easy, under accleration weight moves to rear so that weight helps move the car more while front wheels cannot help as much because they are turning and the car is leaning on them in the process. gorodn murray rocket 1 seater car is so light that the weight transfers are much more dramatic, so not all cars are same.
combusiton runs optimal combustions per second for effiency and emissions, drivng motots or charging. lightweight compact weight low to gorund
Plus the old Fiat will have hardly any more depreciation as it's already lost it's initial value, unlike the other two ..... and you need to factor in tyres on the electric one, with the extra weight they eat those ..... brakes too.
Tyres doesn't last any shorter miles on an EV (I'm driving EVs only since 2011, and do 1000-1500 miles a week), brakes last forever too. My current EV has 141k on the clock, still on its factory pads, tyres lasts 30k miles, ish; previous EV, electric van, tyres last 45-60k miles, bought brand new back in 2015, clocked 175k miles on it, still on its factory pads, and most of suspension too. Stop reading Daily Fail
Most of the braking in an EV is done with regenerative braking, turning the motor into a generator, which doesn't even engage the brakes in the same way as an ICE car.
@@EvilGav apparently you cannot explain this for Daily Fail readers, or FUD believers with 0 critical thinking skills 😔
@@vladzis I used to fit tyres as job 20 years ago. Similar figures were achievable then by most ordinary cars. At least with the better tyres like Michelins. Although we did see one come in for a set where they were the original tyres on an 85k car! Although the range of variability is enormous.
@@dcarbs2979 cannot agree more, and I’m the odd one here, checking my tyre pressure every weekend, and I know that most don’t, unless there is a light on the dash for low pressure
Thanks for this, simple but effective. It never ceases to amaze me how no EV owner seems to have figured out the higher cost of their EV when trying to show off about 'low' running costs...?
While some would argue it's like standing in the rain and waiting for a bus, or pay extra and get a cab. But in that example, there is a tangible benefit to getting the taxi, you get out of the wet and home in a fraction of the time, which justifies the extra spend (if you don't mind paying the extra).
But with the EV there is no benefit, much the opposite in fact with everything from times waiting to recharge, limited range, to the amount of environmental damage done by mining for precious metals for the battery with child slave labour.
I would have bought neither, I'd get a 66 plate Aygo with 25k for 7k. Real world 53MPG, No Road tax, 130 car insurance and reliability thrown in ......So thats what I did X2 for me and my missus 👍 Brilliant video Geoff.
Friend of mine gets 61mpg out of his Aygo 👍
I bought a, 08 Aygo platinum with a Toyota warranty for 3.5k. For me it's perfect, I can service and repair it myself, £17 a month full comp insurance and £1.70 road tax per month. Why would anyone spend 50k and lock themselves into a never ending financial nightmare?. Illness, job loss or even having children and it'll end in tears.
Diesel is untouchable Energy Density, Range Cost, The Fuel of Kings 👊
Very good. Thank you. I would also have loved adding the comparison between used 500e with these options. All the best.
Bought a 1.6 diesel citroen for £100 7 yrs ago.... Its still going strong, good mpg..... And a very good car/van....... Keep your expensive cars... This old mechanic does very well on old tech.
Taxing a petrol car and NOT taxing an EV shows the market is rigged. BTW tax is voluntary, there's no obligation to pay it. ;)
Buy a classic car for free road tax and run it on clean half price LPG. Cheap collectors car insurance also .Plus the initial biggest hit on the Planet from making the car was years ago .Nice bonus if you buy the right car the value goes up .
@@rocklover7437 or any motorcycle, the max tax is £17 a year 😄
@@rocklover7437 please explain!?
Ask Irwin schiff how he got on (despite being right) in the income tax being unlawful argument.
@@LewisRhymes Copy and Paste from Gov UK
"Historic vehicle tax exemption
You can apply to stop paying for vehicle tax from 1 April 2022 if your vehicle was built before 1 January 1982. You must tax your vehicle even if you do not have to pay."
Also no MOT on collectors cars .Copy and Paste from Gov UK
"Vehicles that do not need an MOT
You do not need to get an MOT if:
the vehicle was built or first registered more than 40 years ago
no ‘substantial changes’ have been made to the vehicle in the last 30 years, for example replacing the chassis, body, axles or engine to change the way the vehicle works"
The thing that’s always worried me about electric cars is the batteries as they degrade with use which means buying one second hand you have no idea how long battery’s going to last and they are not exactly cheap to replace I suspect that a lot of others will have the same concern which is going to effect the resale value.
With new ones they will our last the car don’t worry
@@stuartodell2828 Lithium batteries do not work like that they lose some of their charging performance almost immediately and then degrade slowly after that, think about your phones ability to stay charged it may have been able to last a whole day when new but as it gets older that performance drops. consider then the resale value if your trying to get rid of a car that's only got say 60% of its original performance sooner or later those batteries are going to need replaced that's going to be a big problem and i suspect resale values are going to reflect that so be prepared to take a big hit in depreciation we shall see if this becomes true or not with the resale values of EV's in the near future but right now i would be very careful.
@@gges1605 you can’t really compare a phone battery to a car battery as the car battery has temperature controlled coolant pumped round it
@@stuartodell2828 It still degrades over time Stuart some worse than others im sure eventually they will figure out how to minimise the problems associated with batteries but they are not there yet.
@@gges1605 there are tesla’s with 250 to 300 thousand miles on the with 15 to 20 % degradation most ice cars with that mileage you’re just probably scrap
Money is only one aspect of owning a car. Convenience is a crucial factor, and the negative aspects of EVs are simply inconvenient for many.
Interesting but there is also the residual value to take into account, assuming you don’t just scrap it after 3 years.
But seriously, I think that EV’s , or at least new EV’s only work for company car drivers.
That way you get low BIK tax, and 50% of Vat reclaimed (if leased, which is what any sensible person would do) plus the rest of the cost set against tax.
I have gone down this route with a Hyundai Ioniq 5, which is working out OK until the government screw us again, plus I get to see what is available in a few years and what will be the best tax break at the time.
Certainly didn’t get it to save the world!
I work in the automotive trade and actually sat in a VW meeting about six months before the ID3 was launched as they told us about their strategy for marketing and selling their EV platform. When they went into costings, they put graphs up showing how they would be cost effective for everyone involved, leasing companies especially. However, a big chunk of their estimates was that the higher residual value would ensure lease payments were at least competitive to an ICE vehicle. When I pointed out that they were putting huge faith in a retail customer paying £10k more than a comparable Golf GTD after 36m/60k (this was obviously before COVID) they just glossed over it and said there would be considerable demand for them, and their estimates were ‘conservative’. I disagreed then, and I disagree now.
@@hughesy606 Absolutely, I don’t think they will hold their value as previous expected. Another reason why I company lease, plus I don’t have to worry about looking after the battery, just charge to 100% every time.
@@metube9541 You've highlighted what I have always claimed will be the problem with the second hand market - most of these cars new will be leased, so just like you, the original purchaser won't care about the battery or what state it's in later. I don't think these will be viable as second hand cars from, say, 7-8 years onwards because people won't want to buy them knowing that the batteries may be screwed and will costs thousands to replace. Problem is, the vast majority of the public buy and drive older vehicles so what does this mean for the used car market?
@@severnsea For sure.
the batteries will fail and no one will buy it when its 6/7 years old. Its resale value will plummet.
It's a no-brainer. Excellent presentation.
It is a very easy equation. If you want to buy, own and run an EV of any kind, you also need to buy an ice car to make the the EV work. I have had an EV for 7 years now and it is great within it's cheap to charge tethered home charger range. Once you go beyond that tether, it is an expensive and enreliable anxiety filled disaster to use long distance taking hours longer to get anywhere than it needs to. So much so I have given up driving it long distance ever again and instead get my 650 mile range diesel car or campervan out. So there you have it back to the maths if you want to buy an EV, double the cost and you should be somewhere in the right ball park, or balls ache, same thing really with EV's. By the way my EV has now lost 25% of it's initial range after only 30 k miles.
That's why battery milk floats was so good . Electric cars are only good for pottering around towns and cities.
The original electric cars from the early 19th century where built for women to use around towns where lack of range didn't matter .Also lack of maintenance and ease of driving was also a plus point for women .
Jay Leno talks about early electric cars and why they was a women's shopping car and to transport children .
Your EV can have its battery replaced under warranty.
@@LysanderLH you are wrong. My battery has lost 3 battery bars out of 12 at the moment. If before 8 years has passed from new and i lose another battery bar down to 8 battery bars, they will repair some of the cells within my battery to return it back to 9 operational battery bars and no further or still 25% battery loss. They do not give you a new battery.
@@stevezodiac491 is that a Mk1 Leaf?
@@LysanderLH yes 30 kwhr, original shape leaf Teckna 6.6 charger in Arctic white. All leaf's are the same really, with a different set of clothes on, The battery capacity rose over time but always occupied the same space and hence overheating became more and more of a problem with larger capacity batteries and ambient only heat management on them all.
Although your maths is accurate, your outcome may be flawed. The majority of ev owners will be able to home charge, thus saving money. The 500 is a car designed for city/urban use and as so will be bought by people who will use it as such. The ice 500 will return in city/urban usage approx. 35-40 mpg. The ev 500 will be at its most economical in city/urban use returning 2-3 times the mpg of the ice car. Add into the mix ULEZ and other low emissions zones, and the ev starts to look the better option. Your presumption that 50% of 500ev driving would require public charging because it is doing 200 mile journeys every other day is unrealistic to say the least. People tend to buy cars because they suit their needs. A small city ev would not be bought by a person who needs to do 200 miles+per day, equally a Volvo est. would not be most peoples choice for your 20 mile round trip commute into London on a daily basis. I find that your simplified maths has been used to sway people to comply with your agenda.
AT LAST, someone did the math and speaks loudly enough🙏🙏
Superb an actual real comparison
I wouldn't be seen dead in Geoff's Fiat or any of the other;s but by hell, I've learnt something !!! Many Thanks Geoff :)
Yes you have. How an anti EV man fudges his inputs to make the maths work in his favour.
Title text where? 😂
Great content as usual, keep it coming!!!
~12 yrs ago I compared Prius with Prius-plug-in.
Assuming electricity was £0 and all driving was electric on the plug-in, and standard hybrid achieved the manufacturer mpg, the break even was ~100k miles.
Insurance and depreciation were not factored-in.
Perhaps this is a stupid question, perhaps someone has already asked it. I drive a 20 yr old Toyota Landcruiser, 3 litre. She is my wee beastie, she is a good old lady like me. She has performed so well. My original batteries lasted 11 years - she has a dual battery system. She is punchy and very practical. Do you agree with me that the present demonisation of diesel engines is because maybe some engineers can make these diesel engines run on any biofuels? That was the intention of Mr Diesel after all.
Yes, diesel cars can also run on home heating oil. This is about control. They can turn off your EV with the flick of a switch. An old diesel will run on all sorts of fuel that they cannot fully control.
@@John_Wood_ Indeed, thank you for your reply. I have just learnt about battery passports, being made compulsory in a few years time - the EU plans to make it part of all evs by 2026. This and the 15 minute cities are making more sense now.
@@mollienight The reality is private transport will be only permitted to the tiny majority of elites.
Depreciation needs to be taken into account as well. The secondhand car would win that hands down is my guess.
That’s exactly my thinking. I don’t know what an electric fiat 500 with 30k on the clock will be worth, i guess the sort of people that want one will buy a brand new one, which will makes depreciation heavier...? Quite a few unknowns here.
@@GeoffBuysCars There are actually enough used EVs in the market to tell. The prizes are raising because new EVs are getting more and more expensive meanwhile the government bonuses are decreasing, so many people can´t afford a new one. And the batteries seem to be one of the smallest problems in terms of degrading, most of them still run at 90+% after six years...
Keeping classic or older cars on the road means the carbon footprint hit from manufacturing the car was paid back years ago.
@@rocklover7437 I wouldn't worry about Carbon Foot print as it was made up by BP after they had that little spillage in the Gulf of Mexico all them years back. Probably to try and take some of the heat of themselves after ruining the environment in that very sticky life suffocating way. Instead of converting it to something useful so we can enjoy our cars.
@@Simon_W74 You are correct about the spill .Just trying to beat them using their own rules of engagement.
Keep up the quality ranting!!!
I personally run a ‘03 Octavia vrs estate, gave £2k for it. Ideal…
That’s my lovely little Fiat 500 in grey, bought new in 2019 and only done 6k miles. Love my little Fiat 1200 Bluetooth ☺️ Bought it then as could see the writing on the wall with ev’s coming 🤨
And i guess there's no hope in hell that the electric Fiat would actually do 193miles on 1 charge. I would love to see a real world test on that. On a cold windy wet winters day on a hilly dark road. With corners and junctions and driving at a practical speed of say 60mph. Ooops that 193mile range may drop a bit
I’d like to try one and see if it can live the Geoff life
Sure it won´t. But the petrol version won´t do 61 miles per gallon either...
How far will it go with 4 people or pulling a motorbike trailer ? Not far enough !
@@davidryan4454 for trailers EVs are not suitable actually, I agree. But four persons don't affect the range too much.
@@GeoffBuysCars yep. It would be interesting to see how both would do in real life. A fair test, not manufacturer data. Plus theres something honest about a combustion engine unlike these electric cars that someone could turn off if you went outside your zone or milage limit or carbon quota 😉
Excellent analysis, thankyou. May I point out that 42 kW relates to 56.3 bhp in the classroom, not 118 bhp. Additionally, the battery replacement charge for the ev is another reason not to buy it second hand.
Why you don't talk about engine replacement?
@@vladzis OK, my campervan is 1994. How many ev batteries ?? It has covered 100k miles and no sign of engine issues. Spares are cheap and mostly available. To have a recon engine fitted would be circa £1200 max. End of story.
@@colvinator1611 well, my electric van has 75% of it's original capacity, another battery is also available used, brand new and bigger (twice the original capacity) cost £4k. It has 175k miles on its clock, still on original battery (original battery had a warranty of 60k miles, or 3 years; I've ran out of warranty in just 13 months due to mileage I was doing at the time)
@@vladzis £4000 seems incredibly cheap for a new battery actually, but it will still cost you more to run than a petrol/diesel equivalent due to having to pay that amount every 7-8 years.
By the time an EV has reached that age, most will be written off by the cost of replacing the battery and will simply be scrapped. This is not only incredibly wasteful, but means an even greater environmental impact than is created by manufacturing the batteries in the first place.
An engine in a well maintained petrol or diesel vehicle will quite easily last for hundreds of thousands of miles and decades of use, yet a battery in an electric car, no matter how careful you are with it (never dropping below 20%, never using fast chargers etc), the battery is guaranteed to need replacement within 10 years.
@@ryanwilliams6526 not really, I have 2 EVs, one is 7.5 years old, another 8.5 years old. According to you - both need to be scrapped already.
£4k for Nissan battery, 40kWh. It cost £7k, but 24kWh can be sold for £3k, when split to modules (from £50 on eBay). You should know that battery isn't one piece, and made of modules and modules made out of cells, and these can be changed individually
I paid £1000 for my V reg Mondeo V6 9 years ago still use it today ( 5000 miles a year ) costs me round £500 a year in servicing /repairs still in good condition and I take it to a few car shows.
My daughter is on her 2nd 500,first was a 12 s, she's just upgraded to a 2nd hand Abarth, both are great cars, i bought a Jaguar f type V6s convertible with 24000 miles on for less than the price of that ev.
Geoff, a great well thought out video once more however, you did not mention the thing everyone misses which is the cost of the time for...
Searching for a working charger.
Waiting for a public charger if someone is using it
The time it takes to charge your car (45 mins +)
Cost of buying food, drink & entertaining children whilst waiting for your car to charge.
Cost of extra nights en route for long distance holidays
So to wrap this up.
As per a mechanic @ £60/hour
Cost per room per night in Travelodge etc.
Flat Whites
MacDonalds
& So it goes for the whole time one owns an EV.
Is this another spreadsheet & video?
I use my mobile to check when my local FREE charging point is available then
I just turn up and plug in, open boot, to get fold up bike then cycle the 1/2 mile home,
I "PLAN" to charge up my EV when I'm not going to be using it,
so in reality, "its NO hassle whatsoever"
(do you "spend time at work" to earn money to actually pay for road fuel,
hm, thats interesting, "factor in, the COST of YOUR TIME for that"
while I'm charging up my EV for FREE, thats right for FREE,
as many miles as I like, for ZERO, ZIP, ZILCH),
as an ex international trucker, "I no longer do LONG DRIVES"
as I've driven all over, France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, Holland, Luxembourg,
Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Poland and Czech Republic,
and as for Mac Donalds, "I've been on a 100% organic food diet
since 1995" so I dont eat complete and utter garbage either.
.
@@organickevinlondon As a typical blind EVangelist you cannot & will not be convinced about facts so I am not going to try.
By all means delude yourself but don't attempt to delude those of us who look further than the EV Myth.
@@StuartLomas you dont have FACTS to back up your point of view, so your comment is a complete cop out, LOL:.
@@StuartLomas new ICE ban 2030, tick tock, cant wait, gonna still be driving yer polluting old banger after that, LOL.
I'll tell you what the best thing is, YOU DO YOU & I'LL DO ME !
You should see the honda e price it was 27grand just before lockdown and now its 40grand. I worked at honda and driven them but it only has boot space for a handbag so its pointless.
For a fair comparison the car should be new enough to have 3 years warranty. But it does show that EV are a lifestyle choice not a green or economy choice.
Similar air fryers! A year ago a handful of my customers had bought one and told me that they were the greatest invention since penicillin. Now, 12 months later, I know a lot of people who have got one and including the people who first got them most of them are saying that they're "ok" for cooking a snack but if you try to cook a full roast dinner for the whole family they're a waste of time and bloody noisey. I don't own one so I only have what people have told me to go on but a year ago I was seriously thinking about buying one, the only thing putting me off being the cost, now even if someone gave me one I wouldn't be interested.
you think an EV can be compared to an Air Fryer, GET REAL.
I’ve got an air fryer and I’ve cooked a whole chicken in it. I’ve cooked omlettes etc as well. It’s great and saves putting the oven on.
@@organickevinlondon give your head a wobble, I'm making the comparison because just like air fryers are trying to replace the conventional oven EVs are trying to replace the conventional car and in both cases whilst they may work for some people for the majority they won't.
@@JohnnyPaton so how does it fare on Xmas day when you're cooking a full xmas dinner for 12 people?
@@sambrooks7862 EVs are not "trying to" replace ICE vehicles, as they already have won that battle, thats why no more ICE vehicles will be made in the UK after 2030, after 2030, EVs will be the norm, so suck it up, and get over it,
Part 2 ? What are they all worth after 3 yrs ? Especially are the batteries still viable ? Great Great video 👍👍👍👍👍
That is the point. A Fiat500e in 3 years depreciates less than the other one. Not to mention that they are completely different cars- The EV is on a new platform and the ICE is on a 10 year old platform. Not to mention that for an honest comparison he should have picked the most powerful ICE version... o h yeah, there isnt one.... the ICE accelerates 13.8s/100kmh and the EV 7s/100kmh. You cant really compare these two.... Its like the base version EV is the Abrath version of the petrol era... and then you find out that... the EV is actually cheaper
What about the battery replacements on these EV?
@@minecraftmike6850 there's a huge "car supermarket" close to where I work and I know one of their mechanics. I asked him how they go on when a customer has an issue with the battery, he told me that their warranty doesn't cover the battery so you spend over 20 grand on a 3 year old car, the first time you try to use it you find out that the battery is knackered and you only have a range of 30 miles and the dealer you bought it from tells you to jog on? Brilliant. Worse still most people will have bought the car on finance meaning that they've lumbered themselves with a huge monthly bill and no reliable transport.
@@minecraftmike6850 on a related note back in the mid 80s I bought a VW scirocco from a vag dealer, 3 years old and low mileage. I'd only had it a few weeks when it started using a lot of oil, about a pint every 100 miles, so I took it back to volkswagen and without any argument they immediately agreed to fit a new engine but presumably if that garage still existed and I bought an ev from them which suddenly experienced a massive reduction in range they would say tough? The thing is, at the moment only a small percentage of vehicles on the road are electric but the number of people who have had problems with them is disproportionately high compared to the ice equivalent and the manufacturers are doing nothing to address this. Everyone, and I do mean everyone, I know who has bought an ev has found that the range they are actually getting is a lot lower than the figure they were quoted before they made the commitment. OK, I realise that no petrol or diesel cars do the mpg quoted by the manufacturer but if you have a ice car and you're getting 600 miles from a tank of fuel instead of the 700 you were expecting that's a lot different from expecting to achieve something close to the 160 miles you were lead to believe you would get to comfortably do your daily commute of 120 miles only to find that the reality is that on a warm summers day if you drive like miss daisy you might just about manage it but come the dark cold winter you have to buy a cheap diesel to get you to work and back, or move house!
@@sambrooks7862 Mini EV battery warranty, 100,000 miles or 8 years,
and EV batteries dont just conk out, like a lead acid battery,
they may start to gradually fade after about 10 years,
and most EVs have multiple battery modules, Mini EV has 12,
I may have to replace just ONE battery module, in 10 years time,
(Nissan Leaf EV has been around for 13 years now,
with no apparent battery issues, you need to get yer head out of your ass
before making wholly untrue negative comments about EVs)
@@organickevinlondon do you have learning difficulties? Firstly there have been thousands of reports of battery issues regarding the nissan leaf just like every other electric car and secondly, not that I was talking to to you but I was pointing out that a large used car dealership doesn't offer any warranty on EV batteries. Why that should be up for debate, especially from you, I have no idea, for decades car dealers have excluded certain mechanical parts from their guarantee, like a clutch for example because it's expensive and labour intensive to replace. I don't care about "multiple modules" either because all of the cells in any battery are the same age so it shouldn't take a genius to work out that if one module is knackered then the others will soon follow and as for your "100,000 mile 8 year warranty", try claiming on it when you've done about 80k and see how you get on.
@@sambrooks7862 your just pissed off with EVs because of the impending ICE ban in 2030, tick tock, just over 6 years to go.
Your pick on the Fiat is also better accelerating as it has the 1.2l engine not the Hybrid :) You would probably have to replace the Cambelt though - Great Video :)
But on the electric you'd need to change the battery every 10 years that makes the car worthless imo
I have owned a fiat 500e for 6 months now and just hit 10,000 miles, no regrets from me, I have a ev home tariff with edf, 5p per kW so cost less than £1.50 to charge at home and gives me a good 150 mile range, mote than enough for me even living semi rural Wales, have done a few trips to Portsmouth 200 miles, not had an issue finding a fast charger, and by the time I have used the services I'm almost back to 90% and on my way again, cost little over £10. I think I have used around 10 fast charges over 6 months, cost around £100, and probably spent less than £80 home charging on cheap tariff. I appreciate not everyone will benefit but it definitely works for me, and the fiat 500e is a fun little car to drive...
What about depreciation? Presumably the EV may be worth more in 3 years. Perhaps you'd recoup some of the initial cost. I have this discussion with my EV owning mrs. My 20 year old v8 (Assuming we both sold at today's values) means its cost the same to buy and run my v8 for nearly 8 years as it cost to buy and run her new EV for 4. That's bangernomics ladies and gents. If she kept it for 4 more years she'd win hands down assuming the battery didn't go pop. I may well be greener as well given my car already existed. Hers had to be mined freshly out of an african cobolt mine.
The price of the EV will drop like a stone in water and at some point will need a new Battery good luck with that one 🤑🤑
I think it will too. There’s a second video from today that talks about EV demand slowing, editing it tonight
A elephant in the room is the easy conversion to running clean CNG in a internal combustion engine .That's why there are only 8 petrol stations in the UK that has it .
It's more or less like running LPG which is half price but even cleaner .
@@GeoffBuysCars mate, you're talking real shit here, wouldn't be surprised that you're being sponsored by fossil industry too. If you're making video about something that doesn't exist "demand slowing", at least back it up by real facts. Don't forget to mention that Germany's December's sales were 55% pure BEVs, and 90% of all new cars in Norway - BEVs too (also, Norway doesn't have subsidy (pay for buyers) in any way, you just don't have to pay VAT, but now need to pay extra per kg when purchasing one), also mention Tesla taking crown in Australia from Camry (28 years in a row best sold car) by Tesla. Mention car safety, there is pattern here, top 5 safest - EVs. And carry on salivating about £1500 Volvo, jeez, at least take regular people, who actually gets new cars, rather than getting shitbox to take to car shows to tickle their ego. Most people I know getting their cars on PCP/PCH, be it EV, or not, purely because of cost, because for £300-350/month you have a lot to choose from, even if it's not yours at the end of contract. It's about reliability too, because EVs cost much much less to maintain and less things to go down (your video about police cars proves that too), and most modern ICE cars actually having more computers than regular EV too. Carry on for the sake of clicks
I'd buy your choice also as the 1.2 engine is a relatively bomb proof engine and I can vouch for this as I drive one as a runabout
And this is coming from someone who works for fiat also
Never heard "bomb proof" and "fiat" in the same sentence before!
What you don't mention, but is really crucial, is that by purchasing a 2nd hand car, you are not wasting the earth's finite resources building yet another new vehicle (which is even better for the planet). However, well done for you analysis - total sense as ever.
Aint enuff cobalt to replace petrol,unless u hire more children to mine more
Only Africa and Russia have a limited amount .Solid state batteries are fiction so what happens when there is no more Cobalt ?
Cobalt, that is used to de sulphur petrol that your ICE car burns.
Geoff, I would like to see servicing and depreciation in the comparison. Not sure what would come out on top, would suspect the ev would still loose. At least it would stop all the scilly eV excuses then.
That would make the result even more in favour of the old 500 and Volvo. They've already done their fastest depreciating, where the new ones will lose at least £10k each over 6 years (the age of the previous 500 in the example). Possibly even sooner for the electric.
@@dcarbs2979it’s cheaper to service an EV than it is an ICE. Depreciation much less at the moment too.
@@markpashley1831 Is that service vs service at the same rate, or accounting for the frequency of services? (I don't know if EVs need more frequent services or not). Then again, most of the service in a conventional car are fluid and filter changes that EVs don't need.
@@dcarbs2979 there’s less servicing required for an EV. Brakes, tyres all last longer and not as much needed in the way of fluids. I’ve done 35000 miles so far on the original set of tyres and pads/discs. Still about 4mm on the tyres and very little wear on the brakes. The cost of public charging adds up to more than ICE but the rest is cheaper. I can see what the video was trying to do and buying 2nd hand will always be cheaper. But the new v new comparison was wrong. I chose to lease my EV because the lease was cheaper than the equivalent ICE, despite the EV being £10,000 more expensive. This being down to the low depreciation of the EV. I’ll add in, home charging from flat to full costs £4.90. That gets me over 200 miles. Much cheaper than diesel or petrol.
@@markpashley1831 I think both DriveTribe and a TV show did the numbers for a lease rather than outright purchase. There was an interesting solar concept where panels form part of the bodywork which looked promising. Not yet approved for UK roads. Looks a better option than plug-ins.
In New Zealand the Fait 500 starts at $24,990 and the 500E at $59,990. The 500E is eligible for a clean car rebate of $7015 so its $52,975 after that. The difference being more than an entire cars value even after that.
And don't forget that everytime you charge the car that charge comes from fossil fuels, so technically speaking, an EV pollutes much more than an ICE vehicle (peteol/gasoline/diesel/ethanol/name combustible fuels here)
Do some research !!!! your personal views are incorrect
I ONLY recharge my Mini EV, from companies that supply green energy for this purpose, from wind turbines, a LOT of EV owners do EXACTLY the same as me too,
Save up 20 grand for next battery pack when present one fails,or bursts into flames hopefully with no one inside,plus they can lose 40% of charge in cold weather
In addition to EVs not being as cost efficient to run or environmentally friendly to own and eventually scrap as Gretas disciples portray them to be, they are very very detrimental to human health. It is well known that holding your mobile phone close to your head for prolonged periods of time is very bad for your health and can lead to tumours and cancer etc so how can sitting on an average ½ ton high EMF emitting battery be deemed safe to use? I suspect that the only people buying EVs get their information from virtue signalling propaganda outfits like the BBC and Sky etc. You wouldn't jump inside your microwave oven for a few hours but stick a Tesla badge on it and the NPCs are lapping it up.
Yeah you’re literally sitting on batteries !!
That's just utter bullshit, conspiraloon nonsense.
"EVs not cost effective to own", I charge my Mini EV up, at a public charger,
for FREE, that's right for FREE, electricity derived via wind turbines
so that also blows that "not very environmentally friendly" MYTH of yours,
right out of the water, (over its lifespan, it will be far more eco friendly,
than its ICE equivalent), don't forget that about 30,000 people in the UK
die per year, due to air pollution, so lets factor THAT "cost?" into ICE vehicles too,
then there is Global Climate Change, when people in the U.K. get flooded,
due to GCC, I'm not surprised that vehicle insurance just goes up and up,
as the same insurance companies pay out MILLIONS to people
with flood damaged property.
I used to be, an international trucker, (Scania 143, 450, 5 miles to the gallon)
sometimes I would have to drive non stop for up to 48 hours,
thus burning about an extra 100 gallons of diesel, per 24 hours,
over and above, what would be burnt, IF the company I worked for,
stuck to the drivers hours laws, I was just ONE of the many hundreds of
European truckers doing this day in day out, for YEARS,
I worked out, that during my time at that company, they were responsible
for basically, burning an entire ocean going oil tankers worth of diesel,
that wouldnt had been burnt IF they had stuck to the drivers hours laws,
x that by EVERY trucking company in Europe, and anyone with just
basic maths, would easily realise, "why the climate is just so totally fucked"
MAYBE, 2 countries might start fighting over, dwindling fresh water,
it only needs, America to back one side, and Russia or China the other,
and BINGO "driving an ICE vehicle MIGHT contribute to starting WW3"
so I didnt give 2 flying fucks, how much my Mini EV cost to buy,
hey, "no one would put loaded gun, to your head, to make you buy an EV,
BUT, someone MIGHT if yer dont" how very true that could become,
just Google "potential water wars/conflicts" hm, "that EV was a sound investment"
for the fucking HUMAN RACE,
ALL vehicles emit some EMF, in fact EVERY electrical appliance emits
some form of EMF, but hey FrankieSYBP, that wont affect you,
as you must be living in some sort of a Luddites cave
and clearly drive a vehicle, ONLY when wearing a "space suit",
or perhaps, "yer just another BOG STANDARD internet hypocrite" LOL,
Mini EV battery weight 250 kilo, not half a ton,
BUT, I did do a TON or research before buying my Mini EV,
which replaced my ICE Mini, I havent got a telly, so I totally avoid,
"all of that BS about this that and the other",
@@organickevinlondon A Mini EV, the rainbow edition? Anyway thank you for saving the planet at the expense of your dignity. Not all heroes wear capes.
@@frankiesybp3758 another comment from a right wing Petro-nutjob, looking forward to the new ICE ban, in 2030, "there are a whole load of reasons for it"
but hey, dont let progress get in the way of your twisted mindset.
I bought a Nissan Leaf Tekna 40kWh in August 2021 it was 6 months old and had 4k on the clock. New price £32000+, I paid £23500. I pay 10p per kWh for 7 hours at night and get a yearly average of 4.3 miles per kWh. We cover around 14000 miles per year and rarely use outside chargers. So we are paying around 2.5p per mile or £350 per year on fuel. So this is what real world data can look like.
Thoughts. I have always like cars. If the Nissan was no good I would be saying good by to it shortly. But my wife and I love it.
I have done similar maths. Driving a 12 year old Honda Civic - cheapest motoring I have had in years. The tech in the car is a bit dated but with a couple of minor upgrades this was rectified. Much better for the environment than buying a new EV.
The 3 year lease option is an interesting one. It's been shown they don't pay back financially for quite a while. It has also been shown they don't "break even" environmentally for 50k miles or so, depends on model. It remains to be seen if they can make the financial model make sense to enough people. If they can then get the to retain enough value to generate a good amount of trustable EVs in the second hand market, the later could make it more appealing. Currently there isn't that big a SH market and buyer trust is extremely low on SH EVs. A battery replacement can kill a deal outright. A bit like buying a Mazda RX and hoping you don't need the engine rebuilt.
Also there's the interest charges and other fees to add in. I save up for my cars and pay cash. Currently have a 13 year old Jag XF which I work out over the next 5 years will cost me less overall than my neighbour's new Nissan Micra, and I've got a hell of a lot more car for my money, no "dead" money wasted on interest payments, no big monthly payment and so don't have the worry about potentially getting behind with my payments, because I don't have any!
But Geoff. Its not about the money. Its about saving the planet! 👀
Agree with this entirely. Can also add that domestic electricity is currently subsidised by the government which must end at some point - electricity is currently getting more expensive whereas petrol is reducing in price - a litre of petrol is now 135p.
Also, the range claims for EV are extremely exaggerated (I appreciate that quoted petrol fuel economies are also exaggerated), but by example, on paper my wife’s Nissan Leaf does 160 miles, in reality we know it to be more like 125 miles on average (bit higher in summer, bit lower in winter).
Another thing that is overlooked is charging efficiency. If you want to put 50 litres into a petrol tank then you dispense and pay for exactly 50 litres. But when you change your 60kWh battery you need to supply and buy more than 60kWh. This is because the process of converting 230V AC electricity into 48V DC electricity and then into chemical energy is not 100% efficient - the inefficiency is usually lost as heat which is why chargers and batteries get warm when charging. So you should figure on something like a 90% efficiency when charging.
This means to charge a 60kWh battery costs you 67kWh of electricity - 7kWh is lost as heat into the atmosphere. The charging efficiency may be a little better than 90% but the fact is, it is not, and never will be, 100%.
I have on old Honda diesel.... 2008.... Its cheap & paid for. Every month we spend £250 on diesel. Over one year around £1,000 for repairs, mot & service..... I leased a 2022 Citroen E-C4... £260/mth.... I use £45 to £55/mth on Octopus Go, for electric. So for us, we get a new EV for less than an old diesel Honda.
Agree with the analysis, but a fairer consideration would be the 3-year depreciation, as opposed to the purchase price.
Not perfect, but a fair assumption is that one could trade in the car after 3 years for 40% of the purchase price.
So the depreciation on the electric would be £16,000, on the new petrol it would be £9000 and on the older car would be £5300.
The older car still works out the cheapest, but not by the margin one would first think!
I looked into either a Volvo XC40 or Mercedes EQA electric car and based on 10,000 miles I reckoned it would take at around 12 years of electric v petrol savings to recover the additional purchase cost of the electric version over the equivalent petrol version. As I never keep my cars for that long it would mean that I would never recoup the extra purchase costs. I also looked at lease costs and the electric versions are similarly way more expensive than the petrol equivalents. Financially it does not make sense so it’s a big NO from me. And before anyone says it, I do not want a Tesla. On top of that are the range and charging concerns - I don’t want the extra hassle of having to plan longer routes round charging needs, also the whole uncertainty at the moment over insurance costs, reliability concerns and depreciation - it’s all just too risky.
I went from a 500 twinair turbo cabrio to a 10 month young 55 km driven 500 E 42 KWH cabrio. For some other simple maths wich is the enormous inflation in the Netherlands since we took on the Ukraine adventure, more than 15% last year. As I had the necessary savings and the bank almost threatens to have you pay for keeping your money the best thing is to spend it and have a good time! So I got a nice return on the 2014 twinair and now enjoy my 500C E wich is a class higher then the old Polish 500 this is Turin build. Nice luxury styling and finish, nice acceleration 8,4 sec to 100 km/ h you only live once. My own solar panels do the refueling and my employer does the rest so for the maths that's a zero for running costs. Taxes zero insurance 15 euro extra for all risks a month. Garage kept plan to keep it a long time batteries last at least 20 y when used wisely so only turtle speed loading for me I'm not a long distance driver dont need the 85% in 30 mins power injection. Yellow cable on the attick lol. So anyone who wants a nice compact sylish silent and fast cabrio come and get yours! If you have to do math like in this vid, well forget it you'll never join the E club mate! And drive zero emission altough the poster of this vid will then begin a wappie talk about kids in mines and such. Well if you hate child labour like I do don't buy cheap clothes and cheap jeans for that is mostly child labour. Over and out.
Would have liked to see the difference in insurance on the petrol Vs the EV.
You should also factor in that electricity is going up again in April. Also that the government must start charging road tax for EVs eventually.
I think the other point that is worth making is that if you buy a second hand car is that no new raw materials have been extracted from the ground to manufacture the vehicle. And thus one could argue your own personal carbon footprint is improved accordingly. I ain’t no tree hugger but I think this kind of thing is worth pointing out. Otherwise excellent analysis of the EV debacle.
the greenest solution is NO new cars at all, but instead repair those currently on the roads. Think of all that massive capital carbon release from building new that can be wholly avoided.
@@brianlopez8855 I agree with this with one caveat that needs to be addressed - the car manufacturers would need to be forced to make cars more repairable and less dependent on being plugged into a laptop for fault diagnosis along with better training for mechanics.
@@shaunchurchill4594 May be we should all drive a modern Trabbe and have bolt on parts ?
@@brianlopez8855 cars that need to be plugged in just to tell them they are fixed need to outlawed, unless the software is open source and readily available. We also need more components that are replaceable instead of an assembly.
Thanks for asking what I'd choose Geoff. I in fact took an old 26" mountain bike that I already had (free? Or do I count the purchase price of 130$ a decade ago?) and converted it to be an electric / kinetic hybrid AWD bike with skill, knowledge and parts from Amazon and eBay for expertise and time + 400$. It charges at home (or anywhere else I can use a standard outlet) in 4 hours for less than 20 cents per charge and gets 20 miles a fill-up. Oh and there's no tax, registration or insurance required for it in my state. Dealing with the unsecured dogs can be annoying though.
Purchase price doesn't really matter depreciation is more important as long as the EV is still worth 13k more 3yrs down the line the purchase price wont make any difference.
However if you're leasing the vehicle rather than purchasing it then the price will be come a factor as your payments will be higher so from a financial stand point it wouldn't make sense getting the EV over the ICE on a lease.
I broadly agree, but you you do have to subtract the residual value after 3 years to find the real cost of ownership. You sums only work if all the cars are worth £0 after 3 years.
Here's one for you, I bought a Land Rover Defender 14 years ago and it's now worth twice what I paid for it. Even with all the servicing, fuel, oil changes etc, the car has paid me to own it and drive it.
But... lets consider environmental impact. In the last 14 years I've done 32,000 miles in it. That's about 2500 miles a year. Even with it's relatively high emissions, I'm still polluting far less than someone in a fiat 500 who does 10,000 miles a year. Then consider the average car produces about 5 tons of CO2 during manufacture. Because I've had it for 14 years, that 5 tons is divided by 14 years. If you swap your fiat 500 every 3 years, then you will be responsible for a staggering 25 tons of CO2 from the manufacturing process alone. Then consider 80% of all the Defenders made in the last 60 years are still on the road. How many Fiat 500's are still running after 20 or 30 years?
The Defender wasnt just the cheapest vehicle I could have bought, it was the most environmentally friendly.
Great video 👍
Just watched your vid. on EV enquiries declining and this Fiat 500 one and re. your comment on the Mondeo t/stat. fault = no cabin heater, had me realise another overlooked practical consequence on ICE v EV running costs. ICE vehicle cabin heater is supplied by 'Waste heat', whereas for EV vehicle this cabin heater source is not so readily available, even if regen. from braking or even Peltier effects are used, so the spec. for operating costs of these EVs needs to be carefully considered so that "Apples" are not being compared with "Avocardos". Potential range of Fiat 500 EV with cabin heater ON FULL for 4 hour journey is n
Really interesting, I am in my very late 70s and have a Motability Peugeot 3008 diesel, with the £599 down payment and all of my DLA weekly allowance which equates to around £9400 over 3 years however my insurance is included as is servicing, car tax, repairs and the peace of mind of breakdown, etc. at the moment I can afford this, the same car went to £2999 deposit but now not available due to saving the planet
Hmmmmm that's interesting, keep me posted on what the motability does next.
I'm going to do the maths here for my 2009 Audi A6 3.0 TDI V6 .... Between 28 and 35 mpg because I drive it like it's stolen, let's call it 33mpg.
Purchase price:
£5790
Yearly costs:
VED: £360
Insurance: £290
MOT: £39
Price of diesel: 169.9p/litre
Fuel costs: 10000 miles / 33mpg = 303 gallons = 1147 litres x £1.69.9 = £1,948.73
Yearly running cost: £360 + £290 + £39 + £1,948.73 = £2,637.73
Cost over 3 years: £2,637.73 x 3 = £7,913.19
Total cost including tax, insurance, mot and purchase =
Running costs: £7,913.19
+
Purchase Cost: £5,790
= £13,703.19.
If I increased the price of fuel to the high of 192.9p I paid when the fuel was mental the total rises to:
£14,494 all in ... I'll be honest, it's half the price of a Fiat 500 EV... I'm not feeling it (even if I could fit in the Fiat).
Generally I only buy cars that I can make money on. I’ve bought an rust free M3 Evo now stands me in about £10,000 and is now worth 20+. I’ve only had it a couple of years The wife drives around in a car that’s worth about 1000 more than she paid for and my daughters car is worth about £1500 more than I paid for that’s forgetting about what the inflation of cars have gone up over the few years. I just got them very cheap brought in the right place right times
Same with my RS 3 door, Cosworth certainly didn’t lose when I sold that but wish I hadn’t it would’ve made an extra £40,000 😂
Great video
Great video as always but I will also add cost of service for EV and ICE car.
I agree totally get the Abarth and smile whilst you drive :)
Exactly why new car prices have shot up behind the guise of build expenses rocketing. They earn whilst making the EV vs combustion argument seem fairer.
I would still have a 308 1.6 diesil. 80mpg, £0 tax and £9000 for a 16 plate with sub 75k miles with lots of tech.
For me the maths add up. My cost per mile using Intellegent Octopus (off peak tariff) is around 1.5p per mile. Renault Zoe 200 mile range. Home charging is around 1.5p per mile using an off peak Octopus tariff. At worst it is about 10p per mile on a public charger (which I try and avoid like the plague). The cost of 10000 a year in my EV is around £400. It was around £1200 a diesel. The monthly cost of the EV is around £220 via a salary exchange scheme.
Not make a lot of difference but add in service costs.
Also all changes if in London !
When we went to pick up my wife’s fiat 500x sport (brilliant car by the way very quick 8 speed auto leaves my 2019 focus st for dust) anyway they had these electric fiat 500s in the show room and I asked the salesman if they were popular he looked all around to see if anyone was listening and said “if they were the same price as the ice fiat’s then yes very good car but not at £30,000 including battery warmer they are just not worth it and the government have removed the subsidy from them now so they are practically impossible to sell”
Abarth every time. We had one a few years back and it was immense fun. No car that small should ever be so angry. If they had only made the seats just that little bit lower, it would have been perfect.
You need to add the cost of insurance (which will be significantly more expensive on the electric car) and servicing (which will be slightly more expensive on a petrol car). It's also worth pointing out that with banks not lending to anyone without a perfect credit score, most people won't be able to buy an electric car because they can't get the finance needed anyway!
There of course are higher yearly maintenance costs in the petrol vehicle but there also is significant depreciation in the electric car batteries which also should be a yearly cost. Insurance costs could also be a factor in the future as electric cars are a lot more fragile.
A lot more fragile how?
Need to add engine replacement into calculation too, or at least yearly cost
@@vladzis I cannot believe some of the comments here from ICE drivers,
its like they live on a Flat Earth.
I think the answer to all headline question is “You shouldn’t buy any of these”!
Those running. costs don’t take maintenance, depreciation, insurance and unexpected costs into the equation don’t forget.
You can also factor in the extra interest that you would pay on the extra £13.000 or if you were paying cash how much interest you would earn these days on £13.000 over 3 years with compound interest. At 4% interest =approximately £1623.23.
actually I would have gone for the diesel one, mainly because my daily trip to and from work is 104km on a 110km/h highway (yeah I know its Australia) and our price on petrol and diesel prices are both at $2 per litre. but if I didn't have to go so far 100% its the Abarth, actually I might just go the Abarth anyway because they are just fun.