Aside from everything else we appreciate Lloyd’s skills for, it must be said, he is one superb interviewer. Bringing the best out of the interviewee and their experience for the benefit of the audience in the time, without imposing. This is one very important and complex subject for us, and Lloyd coaxed the best out of Dr Hassan’s extensive knowledge and research in a relaxed way. Thumbs up.
Agreed. Lloyd really is an excellent interviewer. Always admire that about him. His calm, unhurried demeanor brings out the best in those he interviews. Would make a wonderful investigative journalist.
@@chelseaangel2589 Absolutely. Or a talented cross examining lawyer, etc. If only he’d have been encouraged to pursue further education, like many of us weren’t. Having said that, his path has taken a route that is benefiting probably way more people, and in a global further reaching way.
And it’s true for any religious or secular group as well as relationships, if you don’t have room for my natural doubts or disagreements then you have no room for me- you only made room for the person you want to change me into.
Agreed but I always enjoyed trying to critically think and I think that made me annoying to the congregation. People used to tell me that they enjoyed my comments because they were different, (ie. not boring maybe?) as if I was really thinking about the paragraph being discussed.
Excellent interview and information! I agree with you, Lloyd, that I am who I am today because of my upbringing. And, I feel it has made a stronger person today. Surviving after leaving the JW’s after high school, and not having support around me was extremely hard, but I knew that the life of JW’s was abusive and I had to grab my future. I put myself through college working to pay for it as I attended and finished. Thank you for this video. I didn’t have support around me like this then, but I’m honored to be part of a supportive group of amazing people that can help people when they need it most! Great interview! ❤️
Right!? I feel like abusive caretakers and parents use a lot of the same tactics. My parents first goal was to break me of any self esteem and teach me to blame myself for every problem in the family. If I had a dollar for every time I heard “This is all because of you, everything would be fine if it weren’t for you” and much worse things that I wont say because they would probably be very triggering I would be a hundred-thousandaire. I was the scapegoat or what I like to call “The Dark Lamb” and my parents didnt really even try to hide it. I hope you are doing better now than you were then ❤️
Of all the interviews I've watched, this is by far my favorite. I've never felt the need to watch a video twice on this channel. That changed today. I will be watching this again! Excellent interview! I'm compelled to buy one of Dr. Hassan's books!
One of my first "worldly" books I bought immediately after I left JWs was Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan. Back then buying online wasn't a thing yet, so I had to go to a book shop in person. Of course they didn't have it in store, so then I had to go to a checkout counter and order it in. I still remember the look on the guy's face when I said the title. He said "parden?" the first time, so I had to say it twice with people around me lol Anyway, the book saved my life and my sanity. It doesn't mention JWs anywhere in the book but I finished reading it overnight with my jaw on the floor because everything could be applied to JWs and it was like reading my own life story.
I was born in a totalitarian destructive environment and with extremly religious parents and family members. I didn't understand why after all their believes and practices, everybody I knew still had bad events and experiences. However, I didn't blame it on the falsehood of the doctrines, because every time I asked a question an excuse was the answer. I'm 45 years old and it was until aproximately a year ago that I started looking arround and noticed that there was something completely wrong with the believes I was taught and of those people arround me. I started searching and found books and tv documentaries about the harms of religions. When I heard Dr. Hassan speaking in the Leiha Remini show on Scientology, I ordered his book and it was life changing. Dr. Hassan's books and work has helped me understand undue influence and the destructive affects, he has achieved what he was determined to do; helping people who have been victims of destructive totalitarian authoritarian cults and groups.
Lloyd, you are doing amazing work! Knowledge is power when used correctly, and you are proving that the "apostate" label Jehovah's witnesses throw on everyone who disagrees with them and exposes them is not to be feared! Keep it up man because your videos are helping educate everyone but most importantly, Jehovah's witnesses who are waking up!
So many ' Aha' moments here. If JWs were to actually watch this and really think about what was being said, they'd be out. I had a few questions and Lloyd asked them which amazed me. Great interviewing skills of a fascinating man. Just wow! .
Excellent interview! Lloyd you explain precisely my main issue with religion: "My whole take on the religion thing [...] It's just that, in many cases what religion does is it says: 'well... You know we can't necessarily convice adults in all cases so, let's get the adults to convice children on our behalf.' And where it might become a little bit unethical is where children are being raised with beliefs that they have no means of testing against reality, and they're not necessarily beliefs that are pitched as beliefs, but they're pitched as facts"
Thank you lloyd and Dr Hassan for this fantastic telling video. I listened to George Orwell's tapes Nineteen Eighty Four (double think) double speak mental gymnastics then I read Thirty years a watchtower slave by William J Schnell. What an eye opener. I read them quite a few years ago. Watchtower practices double speak double think mental gymnastics.
I really loved the last part of the conversation about the authentic self and when one feels most like who they truly are. This is why we need more creativity: art, music, writing, movement, etc., so we know ourselves better. Thank you Lloyd and Steven Hassan both for your work. My life would not be what it is today without. Your worked helped me build the foundation I have built my life as it is today on. ♥️
It's incredible, I saw for the first time your previous video with Hassan (6 yesars old) two hours ago, and I thought "We need a new, longer and more structurated video with Hassan". Casuality, or Jehovah's hand?
This is very accurate. I found all of a sudden after leaving a very abusive partner and having to return to living with my mother who doesnt practice anything JW anymore (besides not celebrating birthdays) that I am constantly triggered and being thrown back into how I felt as a child just by being exposed to family dynamics that dont even have to do with JW practices… The only thing I can think of is its CPTSD from all of the toxic familial and romantic relationships in my life. Its truly a very dark place, I thought I was over being abused in the name of Jehovah and that I was finally going to start a new chapter in my life without the trauma, but now that Im not constantly flooded with adrenaline from living with a narcissist its like a caffeine crash or something. Best wishes to anyone struggling as an adult because of this cult.
@Circuit-Overseer Forrest Heinz thank you I hope you are too, I read your comment on this video and I was like “OMG Yes me too!!” They have stolen so much from us, and we already had the tides against us anyway just from being placed on this path
@@CBrown86 Really sorry for your experience, thank you for sharing... I can relate to so much of what you wrote.. At each stage of healing, if we can help others heal is also important or least improving their life if even just indirectly is key to healing IMO I've found to help although not necessarily so for everyone... As many people don't realise they're stuck in circular subconscious programmed repeating trauma & don't know how to or begin to free themselves... People are so dynamic & different & when a cult of any kind comes into their lives & at which point determines how easy or difficult it is to reach the real inner self of any person......Healing is not easy, no doubt but it does get easier, especially if one is able to go to source of what predisposed us to trauma, abuse etc... Bad parenting, toxic childhood, psychological, emotional, physical abuse starts usually before many realise... We definitely get set up by many factors & recognising that & accepting where we fit on that timeline could be the first time ever one has in their entire families history deprogrammed their generational repeating cycle of abuse & trauma.... So we could be in a multi generational struggle for more than ourself.... Heal, love, laugh, enjoy & live your life as everyone of us at least deserves that.... Thanks to all who share their experiences & especially to Lloyd & Dr Steve Hassan for this amazing interview...
@@sp-leaks7935 "..As many people don't realise they're stuck in circular subconscious programmed repeating trauma.." yes so true. This whole subconscious program angle open up such an important chapter for me.
Commenting to help Lloyd and I adore Dr. Hassan. You both were apart of waking me up (from a very mild Methodist) to become an atheist just 2 years ago at age 60. Leah Remini started my awakening. Jon Attack is so interesting as the doc said.
Soooo…should we all be sending our therapy bills to Watchtower. I can provide documentation of a professional psychologist identifying the JW upbringing I had as the main source of my “issues”…so they should foot the bill no?
“Yes. What you need is to spend more time in the field service. Many brothers tell us that this always helps with mental health issues*. Also, feel free to imagine punching me in the face, as I am whilst typing this 😇” *by increasing the anxiety.
Lloyd and Steve, I wasn't a baptized JW but was planning to become one. A leg break was the beginning of the end for the JWs in my life! I couldn't believe the similarity! Thank you for this and all the work you both do. I have two JW brothers in the organization who are both elders for many years. It's very sad. They are in such darkness. So deceived without any clue. I pray that changes.
@@Letts_prey I genuinely wonder what grifters like Morris think of people such as Evans who are using their brief time to make the world a better place for others. I think there is some sort of deep seated resentment because they to some degree are jealous of someone who can be so successful in making the world a better place for others.
Steven Hassan's book also helped me escape my Korean cult (that's also very similar to the JW's). I also wanted to say thank you, your videos helped me realize the similarities between the JW's and Shincheonji, which eventually helped me wake up and escape.
Fascinating I have always been amazed how cults can control other’s to believe their wacky ideologies this explains so much Thankyou for your hard work
Big fan of Hassan! CCMC was very healing for me. I love the nuances described in this video related to the BITE model. I’m interested in re-evaluating my childhood background with the changes he said he added to the BITE model.
I think the wealth aspects that come from free labor (being paid a slave's wage or nothing for your labor and thought product) is always going to make the leaders insanely rich. More people have died over free labor than any other thing ( i.e.: The "Civil War").
The BITE model describes traits of totalitarian destructive cults and has been useful to identify and determine which groups to avoid and keep a distace from them as well
they tell the audience if you leave rough stuff happens, do not trust this, you can be healthy and successful and live a long time! And you just might! Tell yourself the good success story!
Of course bad things could happen. People now have to count on using their brains and critical thinking skills to make decisions,when they may never had to deal with that before. However, if you use your head and trust yourself, you can make great decisions and have a fantastic life.
Randy Watters. Yes! The Dennis Quaid of 80’s Apostates. I’d forgotten to mention John May & Duane Magnani in my shout out to old school people who did great on erasing the theology (on your other video). And sadly I just learned Joan Cetnar recently passed joining her outspoken late husband Bill.
I'm not sure if it is an urban legend but I heard that in the past, movie studios would have images of refreshments such as soda, popcorn, etc. inserted between frames to induce theater goers into buying merchandise, but were forced to stop this practice. Perhaps this was a misremembered episode of "Colombo"?
That is fact, we learned that in the classroom. Also Lawrence of Arabia those desert scenes in a wonderful film, the lines for soda were very long that year!
28:45 are your hopes realistic ? Such as full disclosure before people join a group, talking to other members and ex-members, an examination of facts before joining a group ? The emotional manipulation by cults is insidious and hidden. Many don’t believe the obvious.
A lot of superb stuff in this video, Lloyd. Thank you to DR. Hassan. Now here's something interesting that you mention. I constantly berate myself for certain decisions I made in my life.... yes, I know you're not supposed to do that!! I wish I'd never met my first wife; which was tied into my immersion in JW's... the second bad move!! However, we're a product of all our experiences and if I'd not been through that/those experience(s) I wouldn't be who I am!! For instance; being a JW taught me a lot about the bible and effectively gave me to tools to aid my waking up.... A case of the poacher becoming the gamekeeper!
High control group environment. That’s basically what it is and “mind control” fits that perfectly. However, we diverge in our agreement that there can even be ethical influence or control.
From Cathleen A Mann PHD BITE model On page 23, Hassan introduces what he describes as the powerful BITE (Behavior, Information, Thought and Emotional control) model, something that he seems to see as a superior definition of the manipulation involved within cults. Much of the BITE model is borrowed material from a 30 year long tradition of social psychological research. In reading the elements of the BITE model within Hassan’s current book, that model has now been greatly expanded from his previous two books. The BITE model he now proposes is so broad that it could be applied a very wide array of groups. What is troubling is that Hassan has not provided any guidelines to separate out the groups, which might warrant the cult label and those that do not. The BITE model, as now applied by Hassan, has become a kind of philosophic construct not grounded in facts, but rather theories, many of them borrowed from others. Hassanology This composite philosophical approach as now devised by Mr. Hassan might be called “Hassanology”. In the world of cults Hassanology essentially depicts Steve Hassan as the ultimate savior. He is a hammer, and there is an ever expanding list of groups to be seen as nails. As they say, “When you are a hammer everything looks like a nail”. Of course this might once again simply reflect a convenient marketing strategy. Hassan, repeating themes from his previous two books, introduces on page 52, this idea of dual identities, i.e. a pre-cult identity and a cult identity. There is no evidence of a cult identity v. a pre-cult identity. It is not even established that human behavior works in this way. These are not constructs that are generally accepted in psychology or professional counseling. These claims exist entirely within the confines “Hassanology”. Again, the tone of Mr. Hassan’s book is that these beliefs are true, rather than just one person’s untested ideas. Another troubling claim is that Hassan believes that all cult members suffer from phobias (p.56). Again, Hassan presents his idea as an absolute truth, ignoring the fact that there is no scientific theory and/or scientific evidence to back it up. Hassan seems to think that his ideas on phobias mesh with his claim that all cults practice hypnosis. He doesn’t acknowledge any exceptions. According to Mr. Hassan all cults do these things. It is true that many cults teach members that leaving the group is wrong or bad, but where are the scientific studies that conclusively demonstrate that this practice constitutes phobia indoctrination? Strategic interaction Approach In Chapter 3, Hassan re-introduces his intervention model, the Strategic interaction Approach (SIA). He states that this model will “promote change and encourage growth in the family as well as in the cult member” (p. 36). Mr. Hassan promotes this model as the preferred alternative to “old style” deprogramming and/or “exit counseling”. However, what Hassan does not discuss here or for that matter in his two preceding books, is that his approach includes elements of counseling. And there is nothing specifically mentioned about the cult member being counseled explicitly understanding that they are participating in counseling, i.e. informed consent. In fact, it appears that Hassan does not see the need to offer his SIA counseling as a matter of choice, but instead uses the family dynamic as tool to keep the cult member talking and then to spring his counseling upon them without informed consent. All professional counseling requires such an understanding and explicit consent before it begins. Counseling, by its very nature, is persuasive and constitutes an unequal power dynamic. A licensed professional counselor that does not know this can do harm to people. People must agree and be amenable to receiving counseling, regardless of what the setting or stated goal may be. The ends do not justify the means. This principle is often cited concerning the questionable behavior of cults, and should apply to those attempting to help cult members as well. It is important at this juncture to point out that there is really nothing new or unique about the SIA approach. It merely represents a reworking of family systems theory, with no credit given by Hassan to its pioneers, such as expert family systems practitioners Virginia Satir or the Milan Family System theorists. SIA relies heavily on the body of theory and practice within family systems. Hassan’s remarks about the superiority of the SIA over exit counseling within his books is a thinly disguised attempt to say his method is fundamentally more effective, and therefore has better results. However, nowhere does Hassan provide a base rate and/or any type or accepted statistical method defining his results or what constitutes a successful SIA type of family work with a cult member. Yes, Hassan provides anecdotal evidence selectively through testimonials, but there is no way to check if these are legitimate or edited for content. These testimonials are always glowing and positive, which is one of the major drawbacks to using testimonials; it’s deceiving and engenders the idea that your work with cult members is superior, always successful, and has better outcomes than any other approach. This is why professional organizations such as the APA (American Psychological Association) have discouraged reliance upon testimonials. In contrast, one of the defining characteristics of pseudoscience is an over reliance on such anecdotal evidence, rather than scientific study. Is the SIA approach the best approach? What happens when a cult member does not have a family suitable for the SIA approach? Is that situation ignored? The SIA approach, as advertised, has the family doing the bulk of the work and seems to include both deception and emotional blackmail to make it work. Current cult members are never told they are facing an intervention. They are not told they will be subjected to counseling. And they are in a situation where family members confront them with family issues and disappointments, often in a very emotional way, which may be used to persuade the cult member to leave the group. In Chapter 13, the last chapter in the book, Hassan conjures up possible solutions to the “cult problem”. First, he suggests more involvement by the legal system. Apparently he doesn’t realize that the legal system is already actively involved in sorting through cult issues. Perhaps Mr. Hassan’s ignorance of this fact is because he has never testified in any legal proceeding. Second, Hassan calls for action by mental health professionals to join the “cause,” and that they should be trained in his SIA approach. However, such training would be of questionable value and essentially redundant, since SIA is merely family systems, which is quite familiar to mental health professionals. In what appears to be a contradiction, he also states that people can use his book to develop their own approach, working with their family members themselves. Why then the need to gather a group of mental health professionals under Mr. Hassan’s guidance if families can do this independently? He seems to cotradict himself.
Omg I remember the Mooney cult saw a lot of things lol they lived close to use in a school they took over ! Not sure they are around anymore ? Interesting and powerful conversation so happy you had him on such good nuggets of information given here. Hope you get him back on again👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
thanks steve, i was with the monnies for 5 months i had lucid dreams and astral travel within the organization i saw spooky things but i'm thankful it made me open my mind now i can deprogram people hehe
I'm reading the recent edition of Dr. Hassan's book ''Combating cult mind control'' and I have to say it's very mind opening and comforting. Because I have just left JWs, I have doctrinations freshly in my mind. I have been quite amazed how many similarities JWs have with the Moonies. I also highlight in the book everything that I can apply to JWs. Most of the pages I have read are highlighted. It's so difficult believe that I really have been in the cult. Unfortunately, remnants of mind control are still fighting back against reality in my head.
Dr. Hassan's experience of the van crash always reminds me of my uncle, who was in a bad crash on his way home from a Kingdom Hall quick build, because he fell asleep at the wheel. It didn't wake him up from the cult, though, he's still a JW elder....😕
First time hearing Dr Hassan talk and I thought “his accent sounds just like that Jewish lady from the Bronx I work with...” 😆 Anyway. Thank you so much for this video. I own the book and the audiobook and I love getting more information on this subject.
my "innocuous" event was a creepypasta relating to Noahs ark. How it was creepy was a bit convoluted and not relevant, but a part of it was the absurdity of fitting millions of species on a boat. I don't know why i had never thought about it before, but it burst my bubble.
About undue influence, i think most religious group, if they ask for anything, especially their leaders can be undue influence, because when they ask for things, you will do it, because they will be like "dont do it for me, do it for God", most people at this situation will think that God told that priest/pastor/etc to ask you to do certain think. It depends though on the leadership too, but in general "divine authority" can skew pretty much the power dynamic in their favor in most cases, and questioning their authority will feel like questioning Gods authority. That's why i think in general religion by itself has the curse of undue influence, because of how the leadership relates to the supreme deity and how the leaders most of these groups can equate their authority as Gods authority, for example Jehovah Witnesses. The BITE model components match up terrifyingly well with how i was treated a few years ago while i was living with my parents, although the environment was atheistic, there were other kinds of beliefs that were forced on me.
Congratulations Dr Hassan on getting the B.i.T.E. model recognised legally. Such a big step forward.
I discovered Steven Hassan 25 years ago, after reading crisis of conscience. So glad he's still working.
Aside from everything else we appreciate Lloyd’s skills for, it must be said, he is one superb interviewer. Bringing the best out of the interviewee and their experience for the benefit of the audience in the time, without imposing.
This is one very important and complex subject for us, and Lloyd coaxed the best out of Dr Hassan’s extensive knowledge and research in a relaxed way. Thumbs up.
Agreed. Lloyd really is an excellent interviewer. Always admire that about him. His calm, unhurried demeanor brings out the best in those he interviews. Would make a wonderful investigative journalist.
@@chelseaangel2589 Absolutely. Or a talented cross examining lawyer, etc. If only he’d have been encouraged to pursue further education, like many of us weren’t.
Having said that, his path has taken a route that is benefiting probably way more people, and in a global further reaching way.
@@steriledial indeed
And it’s true for any religious or secular group as well as relationships, if you don’t have room for my natural doubts or disagreements then you have no room for me- you only made room for the person you want to change me into.
Agreed but I always enjoyed trying to critically think and I think that made me annoying to the congregation. People used to tell me that they enjoyed my comments because they were different, (ie. not boring maybe?) as if I was really thinking about the paragraph being discussed.
You’re a hero, Dr Hassan. Thanks for helping to make the world a better place.
“It was the perfect accident.” - It sometimes requires an extreme experience to trigger the waking up from a cult.
Absolutely adore Dr. Hassan. He’s a bright light who helps those in dark spaces. Great discussion!
Excellent interview and information! I agree with you, Lloyd, that I am who I am today because of my upbringing. And, I feel it has made a stronger person today. Surviving after leaving the JW’s after high school, and not having support around me was extremely hard, but I knew that the life of JW’s was abusive and I had to grab my future. I put myself through college working to pay for it as I attended and finished. Thank you for this video. I didn’t have support around me like this then, but I’m honored to be part of a supportive group of amazing people that can help people when they need it most! Great interview! ❤️
Thanks so much Nicholle! Well done for pursuing higher education in defiance of the JW narrative! 😊
There are so many aspects of BITE that applied to my abusive childhood
Right!? I feel like abusive caretakers and parents use a lot of the same tactics. My parents first goal was to break me of any self esteem and teach me to blame myself for every problem in the family. If I had a dollar for every time I heard “This is all because of you, everything would be fine if it weren’t for you” and much worse things that I wont say because they would probably be very triggering I would be a hundred-thousandaire. I was the scapegoat or what I like to call “The Dark Lamb” and my parents didnt really even try to hide it. I hope you are doing better now than you were then ❤️
@Circuit-Overseer Forrest Heinz 🥰
Cults are indeed, at their core, abusive relationships.
@@CBrown86 glad you’re free from the mind #%€£🤬
Yes. I see that too.
Love seeing that PhD after his name. I was so excited when I saw he graduated.
I clicked on this so fast! LOVE Dr. Hassan and his work.
Omg I did a presentation on high control groups with a case study on Jehovah Witnesses using the BITE model just last week. This is exciting
Really? Please send it to me
Show us! Show us! Make a video!
Jb
Of all the interviews I've watched, this is by far my favorite. I've never felt the need to watch a video twice on this channel. That changed today. I will be watching this again! Excellent interview! I'm compelled to buy one of Dr. Hassan's books!
One of my first "worldly" books I bought immediately after I left JWs was Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan. Back then buying online wasn't a thing yet, so I had to go to a book shop in person. Of course they didn't have it in store, so then I had to go to a checkout counter and order it in. I still remember the look on the guy's face when I said the title. He said "parden?" the first time, so I had to say it twice with people around me lol Anyway, the book saved my life and my sanity. It doesn't mention JWs anywhere in the book but I finished reading it overnight with my jaw on the floor because everything could be applied to JWs and it was like reading my own life story.
Well it didn’t used to mention them. They are in there now. :)
Wow...I'm going to have to buy that book based on your opinion. Thanks. I'm in. A+++
I was born in a totalitarian destructive environment and with extremly religious parents and family members. I didn't understand why after all their believes and practices, everybody I knew still had bad events and experiences. However, I didn't blame it on the falsehood of the doctrines, because every time I asked a question an excuse was the answer. I'm 45 years old and it was until aproximately a year ago that I started looking arround and noticed that there was something completely wrong with the believes I was taught and of those people arround me. I started searching and found books and tv documentaries about the harms of religions. When I heard Dr. Hassan speaking in the Leiha Remini show on Scientology, I ordered his book and it was life changing. Dr. Hassan's books and work has helped me understand undue influence and the destructive affects, he has achieved what he was determined to do; helping people who have been victims of destructive totalitarian authoritarian cults and groups.
"Yes" to everything you said. Thank you.
Lloyd, you are doing amazing work! Knowledge is power when used correctly, and you are proving that the "apostate" label Jehovah's witnesses throw on everyone who disagrees with them and exposes them is not to be feared! Keep it up man because your videos are helping educate everyone but most importantly, Jehovah's witnesses who are waking up!
Hear, hear.
So many ' Aha' moments here. If JWs were to actually watch this and really think about what was being said, they'd be out.
I had a few questions and Lloyd asked them which amazed me. Great interviewing skills of a fascinating man.
Just wow!
.
Too bad cult programming is designed to physically prevent your brain from thinking logically about their cult-related beliefs.
Excellent interview! Lloyd you explain precisely my main issue with religion:
"My whole take on the religion thing [...] It's just that, in many cases what religion does is it says: 'well... You know we can't necessarily convice adults in all cases so, let's get the adults to convice children on our behalf.' And where it might become a little bit unethical is where children are being raised with beliefs that they have no means of testing against reality, and they're not necessarily beliefs that are pitched as beliefs, but they're pitched as facts"
Wow. I’m just reading his book. Awesome to have him here!!!!
Thank you lloyd and Dr Hassan for this fantastic telling video. I listened to George Orwell's tapes Nineteen Eighty Four (double think) double speak mental gymnastics then I read Thirty years a watchtower slave by William J Schnell. What an eye opener. I read them quite a few years ago. Watchtower practices double speak double think mental gymnastics.
@Circuit-Overseer Forrest Heinz Thank you I will read it.
I really loved the last part of the conversation about the authentic self and when one feels most like who they truly are. This is why we need more creativity: art, music, writing, movement, etc., so we know ourselves better. Thank you Lloyd and Steven Hassan both for your work. My life would not be what it is today without. Your worked helped me build the foundation I have built my life as it is today on. ♥️
Hands down, by any model....CULT! Thank you Dr.!
It was well known by the general public that the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization is a cult well before the BITE Model came out.
Really fascinating discussion. Excellent video today.
It's incredible, I saw for the first time your previous video with Hassan (6 yesars old) two hours ago, and I thought "We need a new, longer and more structurated video with Hassan". Casuality, or Jehovah's hand?
You summoned his return, thank you! 👏
@@motorway2roswell ahahahah I guess it's surely the way it worked
LLoyd, you just did your most informative data share on the truth about all cults! Thanks for your necessary work.
What a lovely human ❤
Fascinating interview
Thank you for this Lloyd
The man. The legend.
The advice of finding your own values is good! Also that all models have weaknesses.
This is very accurate. I found all of a sudden after leaving a very abusive partner and having to return to living with my mother who doesnt practice anything JW anymore (besides not celebrating birthdays) that I am constantly triggered and being thrown back into how I felt as a child just by being exposed to family dynamics that dont even have to do with JW practices… The only thing I can think of is its CPTSD from all of the toxic familial and romantic relationships in my life. Its truly a very dark place, I thought I was over being abused in the name of Jehovah and that I was finally going to start a new chapter in my life without the trauma, but now that Im not constantly flooded with adrenaline from living with a narcissist its like a caffeine crash or something. Best wishes to anyone struggling as an adult because of this cult.
@Circuit-Overseer Forrest Heinz thank you I hope you are too, I read your comment on this video and I was like “OMG Yes me too!!” They have stolen so much from us, and we already had the tides against us anyway just from being placed on this path
@@CBrown86 Really sorry for your experience, thank you for sharing... I can relate to so much of what you wrote.. At each stage of healing, if we can help others heal is also important or least improving their life if even just indirectly is key to healing IMO I've found to help although not necessarily so for everyone... As many people don't realise they're stuck in circular subconscious programmed repeating trauma & don't know how to or begin to free themselves... People are so dynamic & different & when a cult of any kind comes into their lives & at which point determines how easy or difficult it is to reach the real inner self of any person......Healing is not easy, no doubt but it does get easier, especially if one is able to go to source of what predisposed us to trauma, abuse etc... Bad parenting, toxic childhood, psychological, emotional, physical abuse starts usually before many realise... We definitely get set up by many factors & recognising that & accepting where we fit on that timeline could be the first time ever one has in their entire families history deprogrammed their generational repeating cycle of abuse & trauma.... So we could be in a multi generational struggle for more than ourself.... Heal, love, laugh, enjoy & live your life as everyone of us at least deserves that.... Thanks to all who share their experiences & especially to Lloyd & Dr Steve Hassan for this amazing interview...
Or any cult. 💖
@@sp-leaks7935 "..As many people don't realise they're stuck in circular subconscious programmed repeating trauma.." yes so true. This whole subconscious program angle open up such an important chapter for me.
My jw mother always said that I rebellious...I never believed the watchtower as a child. DF at 18 years old.
SAME! I always been a goat.
Commenting to help Lloyd and I adore Dr. Hassan. You both were apart of waking me up (from a very mild Methodist) to become an atheist just 2 years ago at age 60. Leah Remini started my awakening. Jon Attack is so interesting as the doc said.
Soooo…should we all be sending our therapy bills to Watchtower. I can provide documentation of a professional psychologist identifying the JW upbringing I had as the main source of my “issues”…so they should foot the bill no?
“Yes. What you need is to spend more time in the field service. Many brothers tell us that this always helps with mental health issues*.
Also, feel free to imagine punching me in the face, as I am whilst typing this 😇”
*by increasing the anxiety.
sadly that Jehova group is one of many.
Omg! Love his work; was my first books I read on identifying unhealthy relationships.
U r changing the world 🌎 in so many ways love u!!
What a neat gentleman... !!! Greetings from Baja California Mexico 🇲🇽..
Excellent interview! I love it how Steve makes something that can be very complex easy to understand. Thanks!
Oh boy this is gonna be good
I love this video sooo much. Thank you
OMG the collaboration of the ages!!!! Absolutely love both of you, can't wait to listen later :)
Best crossover ever
fantastic interview, Lloyd
Lloyd and Steve, I wasn't a baptized JW but was planning to become one. A leg break was the beginning of the end for the JWs in my life! I couldn't believe the similarity! Thank you for this and all the work you both do. I have two JW brothers in the organization who are both elders for many years. It's very sad. They are in such darkness. So deceived without any clue. I pray that changes.
Looking forward to this one!!
Love the pfp
I want to use Dr. Steve's blop blop blop blop blop blop blop @1:42 as my ringtone.
😆
😂❤️
Take a BITE out of JW crime.
great ad slogan, work ad strategy to counter ad strategy. You WILL be healthy and successful and live a long time as YOU!
love his books. Help me a lot on my waking up process ❤️
Love their job. Both of you are a great help for people who escaped from a mind control cult.
I was just thinking Tony Morris should put up a picture of Lloyd in his next video.
“I have a picture up of Lloyd. On my dart board. Every dart I throw reminds me of how much I hate the voice of reason 😇”
@@Letts_prey I genuinely wonder what grifters like Morris think of people such as Evans who are using their brief time to make the world a better place for others. I think there is some sort of deep seated resentment because they to some degree are jealous of someone who can be so successful in making the world a better place for others.
Lol
Been looking forward to this discussion, so happy to be a patron of this channel, the topics are so good. Thanks Lloyd ☺️
Steven Hassan's book also helped me escape my Korean cult (that's also very similar to the JW's).
I also wanted to say thank you, your videos helped me realize the similarities between the JW's and Shincheonji, which eventually helped me wake up and escape.
Same me
Sei un dono per chi soffre. Ho comprato la tua maglietta e appena arriva te la mostro in un video. Grande!Sincero!coraggioso! Utile!
Thanks Dr Hassan for sharing your Experience and Knowledge regarding Destructive Cult.
The law aspect of this is conversation is very exciting.
OG Hassan !!!!
Fascinating I have always been amazed how cults can control other’s to believe their wacky ideologies this explains so much Thankyou for your hard work
If it isn't mind-control, why would WT refer to "putting on new personality" and "readjust thinking"? Great interview, my friend!💯❤👏💪
Big fan of Hassan! CCMC was very healing for me. I love the nuances described in this video related to the BITE model. I’m interested in re-evaluating my childhood background with the changes he said he added to the BITE model.
I think the wealth aspects that come from free labor (being paid a slave's wage or nothing for your labor and thought product) is always going to make the leaders insanely rich. More people have died over free labor than any other thing ( i.e.: The "Civil War").
The BITE model describes traits of totalitarian destructive cults and has been useful to identify and determine which groups to avoid and keep a distace from them as well
I wasn't born in; I was duped.
they tell the audience if you leave rough stuff happens, do not trust this, you can be healthy and successful and live a long time! And you just might! Tell yourself the good success story!
Of course bad things could happen. People now have to count on using their brains and critical thinking skills to make decisions,when they may never had to deal with that before. However, if you use your head and trust yourself, you can make great decisions and have a fantastic life.
Perhaps instead of brainwashing we should say condition the mind. Love your channel Lloyd.
45:05 such an excellent bare bones examination of undue influence/mind control that needs to be discussed.
Randy Watters. Yes! The Dennis Quaid of 80’s Apostates.
I’d forgotten to mention John May & Duane Magnani in my shout out to old school people who did great on erasing the theology (on your other video). And sadly I just learned Joan Cetnar recently passed joining her outspoken late husband Bill.
Thanks 😊
I'm not sure if it is an urban legend but I heard that in the past, movie studios would have images of refreshments such as soda, popcorn, etc. inserted between frames to induce theater goers into buying merchandise, but were forced to stop this practice. Perhaps this was a misremembered episode of "Colombo"?
That is fact, we learned that in the classroom. Also Lawrence of Arabia those desert scenes in a wonderful film, the lines for soda were very long that year!
This was a great colombo episode. I think it was based on truth.
Works like this are going to help more and more people to wake up. I feel hopeful about the future. Thank you!
This one is so exciting! Thank you Lloyd!
That is by far the best interview, by you both.
Good interview. Thanks
28:45 are your hopes realistic ? Such as full disclosure before people join a group, talking to other members and ex-members, an examination of facts before joining a group ? The emotional manipulation by cults is insidious and hidden. Many don’t believe the obvious.
wonderful interview. Thanks to you both
A lot of superb stuff in this video, Lloyd. Thank you to DR. Hassan. Now here's something interesting that you mention. I constantly berate myself for certain decisions I made in my life.... yes, I know you're not supposed to do that!! I wish I'd never met my first wife; which was tied into my immersion in JW's... the second bad move!! However, we're a product of all our experiences and if I'd not been through that/those experience(s) I wouldn't be who I am!! For instance; being a JW taught me a lot about the bible and effectively gave me to tools to aid my waking up.... A case of the poacher becoming the gamekeeper!
High control group environment. That’s basically what it is and “mind control” fits that perfectly. However, we diverge in our agreement that there can even be ethical influence or control.
From Cathleen A Mann PHD
BITE model
On page 23, Hassan introduces what he describes as the powerful BITE (Behavior, Information, Thought and Emotional control) model, something that he seems to see as a superior definition of the manipulation involved within cults. Much of the BITE model is borrowed material from a 30 year long tradition of social psychological research. In reading the elements of the BITE model within Hassan’s current book, that model has now been greatly expanded from his previous two books. The BITE model he now proposes is so broad that it could be applied a very wide array of groups. What is troubling is that Hassan has not provided any guidelines to separate out the groups, which might warrant the cult label and those that do not. The BITE model, as now applied by Hassan, has become a kind of philosophic construct not grounded in facts, but rather theories, many of them borrowed from others.
Hassanology
This composite philosophical approach as now devised by Mr. Hassan might be called “Hassanology”. In the world of cults Hassanology essentially depicts Steve Hassan as the ultimate savior. He is a hammer, and there is an ever expanding list of groups to be seen as nails. As they say, “When you are a hammer everything looks like a nail”. Of course this might once again simply reflect a convenient marketing strategy.
Hassan, repeating themes from his previous two books, introduces on page 52, this idea of dual identities, i.e. a pre-cult identity and a cult identity. There is no evidence of a cult identity v. a pre-cult identity. It is not even established that human behavior works in this way. These are not constructs that are generally accepted in psychology or professional counseling. These claims exist entirely within the confines “Hassanology”. Again, the tone of Mr. Hassan’s book is that these beliefs are true, rather than just one person’s untested ideas.
Another troubling claim is that Hassan believes that all cult members suffer from phobias (p.56). Again, Hassan presents his idea as an absolute truth, ignoring the fact that there is no scientific theory and/or scientific evidence to back it up. Hassan seems to think that his ideas on phobias mesh with his claim that all cults practice hypnosis. He doesn’t acknowledge any exceptions. According to Mr. Hassan all cults do these things. It is true that many cults teach members that leaving the group is wrong or bad, but where are the scientific studies that conclusively demonstrate that this practice constitutes phobia indoctrination?
Strategic interaction Approach
In Chapter 3, Hassan re-introduces his intervention model, the Strategic interaction Approach (SIA). He states that this model will “promote change and encourage growth in the family as well as in the cult member” (p. 36). Mr. Hassan promotes this model as the preferred alternative to “old style” deprogramming and/or “exit counseling”. However, what Hassan does not discuss here or for that matter in his two preceding books, is that his approach includes elements of counseling. And there is nothing specifically mentioned about the cult member being counseled explicitly understanding that they are participating in counseling, i.e. informed consent. In fact, it appears that Hassan does not see the need to offer his SIA counseling as a matter of choice, but instead uses the family dynamic as tool to keep the cult member talking and then to spring his counseling upon them without informed consent. All professional counseling requires such an understanding and explicit consent before it begins. Counseling, by its very nature, is persuasive and constitutes an unequal power dynamic. A licensed professional counselor that does not know this can do harm to people. People must agree and be amenable to receiving counseling, regardless of what the setting or stated goal may be. The ends do not justify the means. This principle is often cited concerning the questionable behavior of cults, and should apply to those attempting to help cult members as well.
It is important at this juncture to point out that there is really nothing new or unique about the SIA approach. It merely represents a reworking of family systems theory, with no credit given by Hassan to its pioneers, such as expert family systems practitioners Virginia Satir or the Milan Family System theorists. SIA relies heavily on the body of theory and practice within family systems. Hassan’s remarks about the superiority of the SIA over exit counseling within his books is a thinly disguised attempt to say his method is fundamentally more effective, and therefore has better results. However, nowhere does Hassan provide a base rate and/or any type or accepted statistical method defining his results or what constitutes a successful SIA type of family work with a cult member. Yes, Hassan provides anecdotal evidence selectively through testimonials, but there is no way to check if these are legitimate or edited for content. These testimonials are always glowing and positive, which is one of the major drawbacks to using testimonials; it’s deceiving and engenders the idea that your work with cult members is superior, always successful, and has better outcomes than any other approach. This is why professional organizations such as the APA (American Psychological Association) have discouraged reliance upon testimonials. In contrast, one of the defining characteristics of pseudoscience is an over reliance on such anecdotal evidence, rather than scientific study.
Is the SIA approach the best approach? What happens when a cult member does not have a family suitable for the SIA approach? Is that situation ignored? The SIA approach, as advertised, has the family doing the bulk of the work and seems to include both deception and emotional blackmail to make it work. Current cult members are never told they are facing an intervention. They are not told they will be subjected to counseling. And they are in a situation where family members confront them with family issues and disappointments, often in a very emotional way, which may be used to persuade the cult member to leave the group.
In Chapter 13, the last chapter in the book, Hassan conjures up possible solutions to the “cult problem”. First, he suggests more involvement by the legal system. Apparently he doesn’t realize that the legal system is already actively involved in sorting through cult issues. Perhaps Mr. Hassan’s ignorance of this fact is because he has never testified in any legal proceeding. Second, Hassan calls for action by mental health professionals to join the “cause,” and that they should be trained in his SIA approach. However, such training would be of questionable value and essentially redundant, since SIA is merely family systems, which is quite familiar to mental health professionals. In what appears to be a contradiction, he also states that people can use his book to develop their own approach, working with their family members themselves. Why then the need to gather a group of mental health professionals under Mr. Hassan’s guidance if families can do this independently? He seems to cotradict himself.
Omg I remember the Mooney cult saw a lot of things lol they lived close to use in a school they took over ! Not sure they are around anymore ? Interesting and powerful conversation so happy you had him on such good nuggets of information given here. Hope you get him back on again👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
15:41 when he says "money" it sounds like a Super Mario coin getting grabbed
Thank you for this. I live in a town in Gilbert AZ where a mom just kidnapped her son due to cult like beliefs in the Latter Day Saints.
Thank you sir you have no idea of how you have helped me get out of jw's again you are wonderful and i thank you from my heart
thanks steve, i was with the monnies for 5 months i had lucid dreams and astral travel within the organization i saw spooky things but i'm thankful it made me open my mind now i can deprogram people hehe
I just wanted him to answer a direct question - I’m waiting to find out what are the elements of mind control.
Oh this is going to be good!
Thank you 🙏🏼
The cult GOAT!! Great video
I'm reading the recent edition of Dr. Hassan's book ''Combating cult mind control'' and I have to say it's very mind opening and comforting. Because I have just left JWs, I have doctrinations freshly in my mind. I have been quite amazed how many similarities JWs have with the Moonies. I also highlight in the book everything that I can apply to JWs. Most of the pages I have read are highlighted. It's so difficult believe that I really have been in the cult. Unfortunately, remnants of mind control are still fighting back against reality in my head.
the right side of his chart is more true now than it used to be! sad but true, go for that other column for YOU!
The phrase I think is the most accurate is cultic dis-integration with a hyphen for emphasize that something is being undone.
I wouldn't describe what I went through as brainwashing or mind control. I would describe it a behavior control.
Brilliant.
They may say freedom isn't free... But you guys are proving that saying wrong!!!
This is a superb interview with dr. Hassan. Please do a similar one with Dan Shaw.
Dr. Hassan's experience of the van crash always reminds me of my uncle, who was in a bad crash on his way home from a Kingdom Hall quick build, because he fell asleep at the wheel. It didn't wake him up from the cult, though, he's still a JW elder....😕
First time hearing Dr Hassan talk and I thought “his accent sounds just like that Jewish lady from the Bronx I work with...” 😆
Anyway. Thank you so much for this video. I own the book and the audiobook and I love getting more information on this subject.
Wow 😳 this vlog nailed it about JW, cult and control... thanks for sharing 🙏🏾🙏🏾
I've never been a moonie but I've pulled one.... 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣🙈
😆😆 I have too🥺
“I saw that sisters. Made my eyes pop. I haven’t been able to shut them since!”
@@Letts_prey well that’s pornea for a governing nobody member, so Lett’s prey for you 🙏🏽😁😁
@@Letts_prey hope you enjoyed it as much as we did!,
Round two...
Best comment 🤣
Good interview Lloyd.
my "innocuous" event was a creepypasta relating to Noahs ark. How it was creepy was a bit convoluted and not relevant, but a part of it was the absurdity of fitting millions of species on a boat. I don't know why i had never thought about it before, but it burst my bubble.
About undue influence, i think most religious group, if they ask for anything, especially their leaders can be undue influence, because when they ask for things, you will do it, because they will be like "dont do it for me, do it for God", most people at this situation will think that God told that priest/pastor/etc to ask you to do certain think. It depends though on the leadership too, but in general "divine authority" can skew pretty much the power dynamic in their favor in most cases, and questioning their authority will feel like questioning Gods authority. That's why i think in general religion by itself has the curse of undue influence, because of how the leadership relates to the supreme deity and how the leaders most of these groups can equate their authority as Gods authority, for example Jehovah Witnesses.
The BITE model components match up terrifyingly well with how i was treated a few years ago while i was living with my parents, although the environment was atheistic, there were other kinds of beliefs that were forced on me.
I love this.
There are survivors of the Jonestown event and also cult members who were not there that day of the murders