After programming in C and C++ for decades, I became a Rustacean a couple of years ago. I didn't know I needed cat ears to get my street cred: thanks for showing me the way, Bryan! 😺
People actually say things like "writing in plain C" to promote their software because of the implications in portability and speed that I has. Also remeber the java era where every programs was J-something?. I think what happens here is that people write a lot of stuff in things like python that bring already a lot of bloat and slowness by default, so when something is written in rust, go or c you have less probability of finding a crapy thing that takes several seconds to start or make some action.
Kills me how true this is (or was). Swings and roundabouts though, I feel like the Ruby community that remains from the hype days are those who are actually making a living out of the tools. Tools that by and large, sell the feature before the language. Eg terraform, gitlab, homebrew maybe even rails. This will be the case for Rust eventually, too.
I have to somewhat disagree with the take on the video. I see where the "written in rust" comes from. It's because Rust provides some unique memory safety features (if you don't abuse `unsafe`), while maintaining performance comparable with C (slightly slower, but not a lot). And for security focused applications this is indeed a feature (having a piece of software that passed the memory safety analysis of the Rust compiler), because it's less likely (not impossible though) that there will be a security issue with the software.
If you do a low-level programming with Rust, it's inevitable to use "unsafe". There's no escape from that. And an operating system in Rust? Pretty sure it's full of them. The other thing, in Modern C++ (>C++11), you don't even need to use new and free operators most of the time and if you train yourself enough with its recent features, you can perfectly write high-performant and super safe programs with C++
@@yldrmcs I agree. A nice compromise would be to confine `unsafe` to some specific data-structures (and test the hell out of them), and leave the rest of the code `unsafe`-free. Regarding modern C++, I agree in part. It's a lot better then it used to be, but dangling pointers and references are still possible, even using modern features from C++.
@@yldrmcsThat's the dumbest argument I've ever heard against Rust. Not only is it categorically false and easily disproved by examining the source code of Redox, Linux, and COSMIC; but it's misguided in the assumption that having 1% of code using unsafe features is a bad thing. It's also a logical fallacy to claim that anyone can write super safe programs in C++ at scale. There is mountains of evidence by Microsoft, Google, etc. disproving this theory.
@@mmstick fanboy detected lmao but you seem to be late. The companies you mentioned have the most critical software written in C++ and no one will rewrite them lol sorry for u
@@yldrmcs You would be dead wrong. See "Memory Safe Languages in Android 13". Also, Google was at RustNation UK today: "Rust teams at Google are as productive as ones using Go, and more than twice as productive as teams using C++" But by all means, keep drinking the copium from the retirement home.
Having heard a little about Rust, I’ve been meaning to take a look. Unfortunately, I don’t have high expectations now. Incidentally, I was told I couldn’t manage to learn C when I was in school, but taught myself just fine.
If a programming language have "unsafe code" feature, it's not systems programming language. Cause systems programming is just that, unsafe mapping of IO.
I was following the Rust community right at the start. It never came further than a safer version of C++ Where "safer" means that the very slow compiler does not allow you to make basic structures, like simple graphs. While giving you no clear benefits in return. So it is very complicated to port existing commercial software to Rust. I was used to programming in Object Pascal, where safety problems were never any issue. Mainly due to the simple way in how strings and arrays were handled. Also extremely fast and flexible. My main commercial application was based on an internal recursive graph database. Very adaptable via class interfaces using inheritance to separate implementation details from a generalized interface. Fast and very stable. A rare pointer-error was captured with an exception and only gave a warning, which allowed clients to save their data and restart the program.
"Compiler does not allow you to make basic structures, like simple graphs" -- I suggest you should go back to the store and ask for a refund for this information.
@@__kvik Structures that refer to each other via pointers are not allowed in Rust. The simple borrow system does not allow that. But you can make one via an indexed array. And this was the expert Rust advice for people that wanted to make simple structures for games.
I know that "pointerized" graphs are mentaly easy, but on current processors anything that jumps on memory in crazy pattern is very slow, even linked and double linked lists are discouraged (especialy if elements count is low). Object Pascal in Turbo/Borland Pascal or Delphi ? For BP compiling to protected mode was good "valgrind" of the times, Runtime 216 ("core dumped" relative) on seemingly mature and working code ;)
@@AK-vx4dy Traversing a graph is a lot faster than index look-up. Used in many many graphics optimizations. Ever tried a graph database? If you can structure your often-used relationships in a graph, you don't need to search for them. My main applications were full of complex relationships. Related to safety and law and much more. Things that have no fixed structure. Some depending on clients and their legacy databases. So managing relationships between different types of records can be slow and complicated via many index look-ups or fast and simple via simple OOP-interfaces and a graph. Object Pascal has automatic managed memory of strings. So you only need to check the state of the objects/records that you use. The windows interface gave were 99% the cause of problems. Not the memory management. Speed was never an issue, unless a database was involved. I can now port the same data system to Nim without many problems. It does not have OO, but allows pointer-relationships. But it would be extremely hard to port to Rust. I tried to help Rust by requesting a complex graph and graph-database interface. That would solve a lot of its restrictions.
@@zyxzevn You can use Rc/RefCell or Arc/Mutex to create self-referential structs. You can use unsafe Rust directly to create these as well. You can use arenas that allow you to have safe self-references in a "normal" way. Also the indexing approach you mentioned. Thus we have at least 4 different ways that Rust lets you write these kinds of structures, which is why I told you to get a refund. Sure, none of this is super easy to learn or very convenient to write, but neither is bashing out the equivalent in some other languages with comparable performance / reliability.
it is hard to come up with actual novel designs and ideas for Oses and applications. Much easier to reimplement something with a twist (different license, language, dependencies, ...)
And literally just because Lunduke shared the results of a poll from the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research. While even the far-left Frankfurter Allgemeine shared those same poll results...
@@JefOliveira90the minute you can handle the reality about the old lodge boy in the apron up your butt, you let me know. (i'm talking about john quincy adams antimasonic party, and tyhe oj simpson mkultra child rape verdict coverup no american remembers Ever)
Lunduke used to be an okay, entertaining guy. Now I see he's attracted and catering to the worst of the far right. Is this 2003? Even homophobes don't say "that's gay" anymore.
Programmed in Rust, Compiled with Fortran 77, and linked using Ada, just to be sure it's type safe, certified for US Government Projects, and memory safe to run on a Nintendo 8-bit modded to use a keyboard and mouse, but no Internet... Because that's not safe.
I sometimes do the cat ears in some of my profiles, but I agree with this message. Saying it's written in rust with cat ears on is not only unprofessional, but does a disservice to all us nekos and fiurries that are not crazy lunatics. 😽😏
Rust has become emotional support tool to affirm being a competent SWE. The sad part is, competent or seasoned plumbers, for example, may never be so vocal about how great the spanners they're using are. Seniors can shows their competence by what they've achieved while juniors tend to cling to the tools they have learned or are using. If one is serious about system programming, which Rust is used for, I would rather recommend to learn about operating systems, by digging the topic like how they manage hardware resources and abstract them from the processes. I'm a backed dev and don't do system programming at all, but learning about operating systems was so beneficial to understand performance bottlenecks of application and database servers.
Frankly speaking, I didn't understand the essence of the complaint, considering that the description of the lion's share of repositories of small projects (not written in Rust) begin with "The program is written in the * language". And this makes sense, for example: - to attract the attention of new developers (contributors) who are interested in the * language; - to point out the advantages/disadvantages, because the program's performance sometimes greatly depends on the chosen language; - to point out the need/lack of need for an interpreter or runtime; And so on and so forth. And nitpicking about avatars/cat ears/references to fandoms and so on is the height of idiocy. If I were given a dollar every time for every cringe-worthy avatar of a developer I saw (which were long before Rust was born), I would already be a multimillionaire.
When you use Rust you're automatically better than everyone. Zero bugs, perfect features, too cool for the room. Because everything about being a software engineer is just syntax, rust and absolutely nothing else. The zealotry these days is absolutely off the charts.
Most projects declare the languages that they are written in. Whether that is Rust, C, Python, Go, TypeScript, JavaScript, Bash, Elixir, Erlang or whatever. To single out Rust specifically would indicate to me that you have some deeply rooted insecurity in seeing projects written in Rust. If you're noticing a lot of projects written in Rust lately, then there must be a lot of good qualities in Rust.
"written in pure JavaScript" made sense for utilities, like a low-priority client-side md5sum calculator, but... It's gotten weird. PNG parsing shouldn't happen in JS in production. Linux wasn't professional, it got big on merit. Rust has merit, and I gotta say it Bryan, catcoders are making 7-figures. We don't wear suits to work. We don't wear top hats. We wear cat ears.
The point of web-assembly is to solve that though. If you need to use a library in JS, it doesn't have to be JS. This is how it has been outside of the browser where you can mix languages. Instead people have been pushing web-assembly only for special performance critical code or web assembly on the server (makes my head hurt).
People seem to think that it being programmed in rust automatically means it's both fast and safe. But like, as with any language, you can still program it badly, in an unsafe way, with a terrible implementation that's slow. Yes rust has the potential to be fast and safe, but that's more dependent on the programmer than the language.
This kind of reminds me of RollerCoaster Tycoon. It was/is popular because it's a great game. But the fact that it was written in Assembly, is just an extra, interesting tidbit about it. It didn't become popular because it's written in ASM. It was not the selling point that "Game. Written in Assembly. By the way you can build a park in it too."
The ironic part about it all is that Rust isn't even better than C or C++, not unless you stop using the very features that they brag about giving it such an advantage. You cant make a program that is faster than C++ in rust without doing memory management (given that the product requires it) and operating outside Rust's "safe mode". Worse yet, the syntax for working with memory is intentionally terrible to try to dissuade you from doing it in the first place. Even despite all this effort, it still isn't really any faster than C/C++.
Yeah, the Rust evangelists always seem to be using some terrible early '90s strawman version of C and C++ (mashed together), rather than honestly comparing current rust(and libraries) to current C++(and libraries). They also conveniently forget the importance of verified, time tested and finely optimized libraries when making important sorts of software and the difficulty of creating such libraries. ("Important" as in disaster will result from hitting a bad corner case, or electrical costs over $100,000 for each run of a calculation making double checking runs cost prohibitive.)
None of that is true. Proper memory management doesn't require raw pointer manipulation, and raw pointer manipulation won't magically make your software faster. There is no "safe mode", there are only unsafe functions. All of the safety mechanisms in Rust still apply in unsafe functions. The only difference is that unsafe functions let you dereference raw pointers and call into C libraries. It is almost entirely used to build Rust bindings for a C library.
The best, most intrinsically secure programming language is ADA. Look, you can send rockets to space, like Ariane. Wait ! What about the chair-keyboard interface ?
I don't think it's necessary to show my identity to all users as a proof of legit software. I can remember Grudl's speech (author of Nette) about how some folks printed out his photo, put it on wall and thrown a darts to it, just because Nette was buggy and pain to work with.
For everyone who is commenting that using anime cat photos does not demonstrate a lack of professionalism, that's subjective. But don't complain about regular people who aren't part of some strange cultural group on the modern internet (generally people who are in the programming field in a more professional or academic way) avoiding contact, or sticking with more known programming languages.
Turns out the crazy cat lady down the road has an army of felines all recreating the cinnamon desktop for Amiga 3.1 in rust. I did ask them to link in this post, but they all just scratched the post apart😂
This seems to be more common in Rust but it isn't exclusive to Rust. I've seen this with "100% pure Java" before. Or all the projects that start with "js" - something. Or create-react-app... no your app isn't a react app, it is an app that does things, what DOM manipulation library you use is secondary as best. My feeling though is "Rust" as a feature is an intent to get people looking to tinker in Rust as contributors to the project. If your day job is Java and you want to work in Rust, that might be a feature to you. It is fine to have these kinds of projects for people to experiment and have fun. But yeah, they likely won't ever be anything serious.
The opposite, not being made in "X" language, is actually a feature. For ex, "not being programmed in javascript". Why is it a feature ? because the fact that its not made in JS already increased the quality of the software in at least 235%.
I have to disagree with the main idea of the video. The first example was obviously ridiculous, but there are many projects out there that tell you the language at the very beginning. Admittedly most C programs don't do that, because they have become a standard. But most programs written in C#, Go, oh hell, even JavaScript does that. The redox one isn't a stupid description because that is what makes it special. If there's a kernel implemented in Zig, D, or C3, I'm pretty sure they will also mention that.
Not watched the vid yet, but very real title. The Ruffle flash emulator is written in Rust, but somehow it still fails to play nearly 20-year-old games at acceptable speeds (just 30fps would do). Best advertise the actual features instead of the useless backend details.
While some of it is blatantly dumb, it's worth mentioning that nobody is going to rewrite something in C because it's a very old language with lots of flaws. The main appeal of rust is systems programming without so many serious memory bugs, this is what someone is implying when they say it's made in rust. This compares to C in which trivial things like strings can easily result in memory leaks or faults and CPP where anything and everything can result in a memory bug. Rust is a language that encapsulates a mindset that most memory bugs are avoidable mistakes and the programmer is not the only one at fault when something goes terribly wrong, and the compiler should always work to prevent dumb mistakes. "Written in rust" tells me that their intention is to make their code to a high standard, both bare metal performant and also compile-checked correct. Whether or not the projects will live up to that reputation is a very different question
Honestly, people wanting anime-style avatars with cat ears or full-on furry avatars doesn't faze me. Good code is good code, and as long as they don't actually think they're a pet, I'm not judgmental. If someone wants to use the username "voldemort69" and have a picture of a human-goldfish hybrid, I don't care. The point is, with Rust, the language itself isn't a feature. Projects relying on that as a selling point should rethink their whole approach.
Anyone else remember Tom Christiansen's talk about a complete userland written in Perl? Programmed in C for people who don't want to be held hostage by their toolchains donors ESG score.
I think it is when the language has features that make it safer, faster, and still gives control to the users and is syntactically more familiar to reason about than OCamel. Compile times are an issue that needs mitigating. But thats also because of the library problem. There are other languages like Zig that are interesting but nothing like as safe. Go in a couple of years when you have arena alocators to help avoid garbage related issues. I agree shinny zealots are a problem; loudly move onto the next shiny thing. Cat ears or not. Just read an article about it being possesed by alt right 4chan. Communists saying a business cant be a business also isnt helping.
the point of RedoxOS is not to be the superior OS, its actually a demo, that proofs the point of rust being usable at lower level. The autor wrote it in rust cause at that time there was nothing like this written in Rust. Some parts of it got wider adoption though. The same people developed popos/cosmic and they did not transfered that vibe of `written in rust`, or at least not that much of it. None of the examples that you gave in this video is meant to be something more than a demo. Programs that are supposed to be a real producst and it just happens to be written in rust are not marketed as `written in rust`
In case of RedoxOS is unfair and "low hanging fruit". RedoxOS is kind a proof of concept, that is possible to write OS in Rust and also first (or one of firsts) such software in Rust, so is base for acquiring experience, common problems etc.
I didn't even know what Rust was till a few months ago when somebody mentioned the new PopOS! DE was going to be written in it. All I see in Linux is Python everywhere. To me, Python is the major language on Linux and Open Source software. BTW first image comes to mind of Cat people Stinky House and those guys probably have a face for radio to match.
I REALLY hate Rust. It's a woke programming language. No, really, it is. They have a mega-woke Code of Conduct, pretty much all programmers who program in Rust are radical progressive activists. "Programmed in Rust" usually just means "programmed by a Social Justice Activist" - it's a virtue signal, a sign that "hey, I'm woke, don't you dare to use my program if you are a conservative Chud!".
I admit that Rust has some neat features, and that there are talented people using Rust and actually writing code. All that is overshadowed by the cultural aspects, which make choosing Rust extremely Unsafe. The zealotry means there will be a tonne of unprofessionally designed and poorly maintained junk accumulating in cargo. Rust + Cargo encourages deep dependencies (like npm) It’s going to become an absolute minefield of horror to keep on top if this. Compounding this is the dreadful financial situation that the Rust foundation has got itself into (it’s haemorrhaging money at an alarming rate), the burn out in the core devs, and the recent backlash against everything Rust that has been building up for well over a year. Good chance it’s all going to implode. Safer bet is to avoid Rust like the plague and go with more sensible options.
"Run to the hills! Run for your life!" Maybe it's not such a bad thing for Rust to be relegated to the dustbin of history. I'm sticking to C, C++, Java, and Kotlin as my core languages. Rust deviated completely from the C-based syntax of most mainstream languages, for no particularly good reason, and I would argue it's worse and not better, in addition to being different. Sure, there's some ideas of merit in the design of the language. I'm sure that a new language will eventually rise up to improve on all of Rust's innovations--and likely use a more C-like syntax. Additionally, I wouldn't be surprised if C++ evolves to incorporate some of Rust's better ideas, as options.
But C++ already has the good ideas that Rust stole from it. Everyone claiming that any feature from Rust should be incorporated into C++ just doesn't know the language.
What are you doing Lunduke? Really. I've been listening to you for years, and this is your lowest point. Fact is, I know you're smarter than this. Written in Rust is a shorthand for "written in a memory-safe (thus inherently more secure, and less likely to crash) language, that doesn't compromise on performance." Not to mention, that the steep learning curve of the language means that any decently complex piece of software written in it means the developers are (likely, not all of course) experienced. So yeah, written in Rust might not be a feature per se, but it communicates aspects about the quality of the software, which users should care about. I've been writing Rust professionally (that is, as my family's main source of income) for 7 years. Working on mission critical commercial software. The people I've worked with on Rust-based projects were always of the highest professional caliber, never wearing cat ears, and without cartoon avatars, not that online personas matter. But it was almost always white dudes in their 30s-40s-50s with families, not that it matters either, but the furries were nowhere to be seen. What matters is that we chose the best tool for the job. And in the 2020s, the best tool the job, at least when it comes to system programming, is in many cases Rust. Looking for thing online to be outraged about is beneath you. I like you Blowhole. Do better. All the best.
@@AleksyGrabovskiwho spoiled PHP / perl? Both script languages still used. Sometimes they may be laughed at because they are old. But if anything, C/C++ Will get that same treatment from the community, not Rust
@@AleksyGrabovski that’s my point, I know enough professional Rust developers IRL. None of them, as far as I know are a part of the “online community”. Which leads me to believe that this online community is… irrelevant when it comes to the Rust language itself, and the people who use it to do work.
They used Rust as shorthand 5 times, instead of promoting their product's stability and security. They allude to Rust having "innovations" without explaining what those are. The meme is real, and this is an example of it. If online personas don't matter then everyone would be happy to be represented by a white M in an orange circle.
On Hackernews sometimes I now see projects tout "written in C" for those cozy retro vibes. But "written in (safe) Rust" IS a feature because Rust the language provides safety guarantees that eliminate whole classes of bugs. Before you mash reply with "sounds like a skill issue", the history of software shows that even experienced C and C++ programmers cannot avoid buffer-overflow and UAF bugs in real-world code bases. Rust... just fixes the problem. As for the catgirls... Astronaut 1: "You mean... hacker culture is queer?" Astronaut 2: "Always has been..."
as a user of a library I personally dgaf which language the library is written in. I am focusing on functional and nonfunctional requirements and "written in rust` is not on these lists.
Tons of people list programmed in CPP, Go etc. This seems like a poorly written rant, not to sure how I came about this. Rust has very real benefits over other languages. Similar to how I'd rather use a WM written in C++ than Python or JS, I'd rather use one written in Rust. This is why people advertise it.
I expect that "programmed in rust" is meant to represent the value that rust brings to a project. A minix like kernel written in rust sounds like a neat idea to act as a foundation for a new generations of more secure IoT devices. I guess if you view the future as one of explicitly unadopting c/c++ because memory is hard, then Rust is in fact a feature. Lets think about that Rusty minix example again. OK so undifferentiated IoT gadget maker B decides that they are going to create a new generation of Wifi attached air quality sensors which reports its data to a cloud platform, and it can't utilize C/C++ based software because of liability or regulatory issues (or liability or regulatory issues within the expected lifetime of the product line), where does someone turn?
The thing is that Rust cultists tend to completely ignore all other languages that have similar or much better security guarantees, and present situation like the only choice is between C and Rust.
It's weird when projects advertise rust as the primary feature, except when they are designed as attempts to specifically do something in rust which people may otherwise not think is possible. They could instead mention that they are written with a focus on stability, security, and maintainability or something like that. But to be fair, mentioning rust at some point is a good shorthand for that. RedoxOS is an attempt to figure out if/prove that rust is suitable for operating system development. It makes perfect sense it is pitched the way it is. The whole cat people thing is just cringe inducing, both on the part of the people doing it and on the part of you for claiming it is in any way a significant chunk of people actually using rust.
While I agree about "Programmed in Rust" not being a feature, I think your understanding of professionalism is misguided and narrow. Being a little silly is not "unprofessional" if the work is done competently and in a timely fashion. I don't think there's anything wrong with people having cat avatars (or even dressing up like cats) if they are pleasant coworkers ; and overall Rust developers seem to be pretty serious and dedicated, if sometimes overzealous. Yes, even the catboy ones. On the other hand, a traditionally professional appearance is not a gauge of trustworthiness, there are plenty of suit-clad individuals who merrily waste everyone's time with nonsense and spend their day slacking off on candy crush.
My car is programmed in Rust... And by programmed, I mean covered.
LMAO
10/10
I will create a meme programing language called "CRust". Rust rewritten in C.
T
I'd put money on it if it was the other way around, C written in Rust 😂
I mean LLVM is written in C++
Written in Rust is the new I use Arch btw
Took the words out of my fingers.
I prefer Arch
and just like Arch, it’s very very nice for some things, but proselytized too much outside its best use cases
idk it's almost like vegan now
Makes sense. The same furries proclaiming rust to be so awesome also tend to Arch.
Do you remember when everything programmed in Java had to start with a J?
I forgot about this!
Java? What's that?
JDOS, a DOS simulator written in Java
pytorch numpy scipy sympy pyplot pydantic pygame... just off the top of my head
"programmed in *" has been on open source project descriptions for at least 20 years.
"Written in rust" is a magic incantation that makes all your bugs go away
it actually allows you to program and play with your boner without taking the vows to become a full c initiate.
even your balls, it seems
But I thought having unit tests was a magic incantation that makes all your bugs go away.
After programming in C and C++ for decades, I became a Rustacean a couple of years ago. I didn't know I needed cat ears to get my street cred: thanks for showing me the way, Bryan! 😺
Of course it's the #1 feature because it is likely a clone of something else not written in Rust.
The mandatory anime cat girl profile picture, this is how things was supposed to be
People actually say things like "writing in plain C" to promote their software because of the implications in portability and speed that I has. Also remeber the java era where every programs was J-something?. I think what happens here is that people write a lot of stuff in things like python that bring already a lot of bloat and slowness by default, so when something is written in rust, go or c you have less probability of finding a crapy thing that takes several seconds to start or make some action.
"written in plain C".... unmaintained for decade...
"Written in plain C" usually means something like "one exploitable vulnerability per line". Important exceptions exist obviously, but that's the rule.
diverse AI cat image generator written in Rust, coming to a Cloud near you soon sponsored by Google
Ruby used to be this way. I reckon rust is ruby on steroids in this regard
Kills me how true this is (or was). Swings and roundabouts though, I feel like the Ruby community that remains from the hype days are those who are actually making a living out of the tools. Tools that by and large, sell the feature before the language. Eg terraform, gitlab, homebrew maybe even rails.
This will be the case for Rust eventually, too.
Wow, you actually manage to describe something that I perceived, but didn't yet articulate. I usually call such people cultists.
I have to somewhat disagree with the take on the video. I see where the "written in rust" comes from. It's because Rust provides some unique memory safety features (if you don't abuse `unsafe`), while maintaining performance comparable with C (slightly slower, but not a lot). And for security focused applications this is indeed a feature (having a piece of software that passed the memory safety analysis of the Rust compiler), because it's less likely (not impossible though) that there will be a security issue with the software.
If you do a low-level programming with Rust, it's inevitable to use "unsafe". There's no escape from that. And an operating system in Rust? Pretty sure it's full of them. The other thing, in Modern C++ (>C++11), you don't even need to use new and free operators most of the time and if you train yourself enough with its recent features, you can perfectly write high-performant and super safe programs with C++
@@yldrmcs I agree. A nice compromise would be to confine `unsafe` to some specific data-structures (and test the hell out of them), and leave the rest of the code `unsafe`-free.
Regarding modern C++, I agree in part. It's a lot better then it used to be, but dangling pointers and references are still possible, even using modern features from C++.
@@yldrmcsThat's the dumbest argument I've ever heard against Rust. Not only is it categorically false and easily disproved by examining the source code of Redox, Linux, and COSMIC; but it's misguided in the assumption that having 1% of code using unsafe features is a bad thing. It's also a logical fallacy to claim that anyone can write super safe programs in C++ at scale. There is mountains of evidence by Microsoft, Google, etc. disproving this theory.
@@mmstick fanboy detected lmao but you seem to be late. The companies you mentioned have the most critical software written in C++ and no one will rewrite them lol sorry for u
@@yldrmcs You would be dead wrong. See "Memory Safe Languages in Android 13". Also, Google was at RustNation UK today: "Rust teams at Google are as productive as ones using Go, and more than twice as productive as teams using C++" But by all means, keep drinking the copium from the retirement home.
Sorry Lunduke, but the "people with anime cat girl profile pictures" sounds like the majority of software engineers out there that I've seen 😅
I should agree, Bryan is getting old :D
Confused boomer yells at VTubers. ilu anyway, Bryan
@@ZenoDovahkiin Do you even know what a boomer is?
@@rhone733It's type of a shooter? It's a fat exploding zombie?
FML this comment makes me feel old
10 years ago they would have been writing everything in Big Data and wearing lumberjack shirts. Same people, different times.
I like Ada more than Rust
Finally, someone mentioned Ada!
Based Ada user.
PLEASE do a rust foundation and finance analysis video.
I'm more of a puppygirl, so I use zig instead of rust honestly
Lmao
There's a theme among rust programmers about playing pretend beyond just wearing cat ears.
Having heard a little about Rust, I’ve been meaning to take a look. Unfortunately, I don’t have high expectations now. Incidentally, I was told I couldn’t manage to learn C when I was in school, but taught myself just fine.
If a programming language have "unsafe code" feature, it's not systems programming language. Cause systems programming is just that, unsafe mapping of IO.
Systems programming is about programming systems. Rust handles I/O very well.
@@mmstickthen all programming is systems programming
Based C++-Pilled
I was following the Rust community right at the start. It never came further than a safer version of C++ Where "safer" means that the very slow compiler does not allow you to make basic structures, like simple graphs. While giving you no clear benefits in return. So it is very complicated to port existing commercial software to Rust.
I was used to programming in Object Pascal, where safety problems were never any issue. Mainly due to the simple way in how strings and arrays were handled. Also extremely fast and flexible.
My main commercial application was based on an internal recursive graph database. Very adaptable via class interfaces using inheritance to separate implementation details from a generalized interface. Fast and very stable. A rare pointer-error was captured with an exception and only gave a warning, which allowed clients to save their data and restart the program.
"Compiler does not allow you to make basic structures, like simple graphs" -- I suggest you should go back to the store and ask for a refund for this information.
@@__kvik Structures that refer to each other via pointers are not allowed in Rust. The simple borrow system does not allow that. But you can make one via an indexed array. And this was the expert Rust advice for people that wanted to make simple structures for games.
I know that "pointerized" graphs are mentaly easy, but on current processors anything that jumps on memory in crazy pattern is very slow, even linked and double linked lists
are discouraged (especialy if elements count is low).
Object Pascal in Turbo/Borland Pascal or Delphi ?
For BP compiling to protected mode was good "valgrind" of the times, Runtime 216 ("core dumped" relative) on seemingly mature and working code ;)
@@AK-vx4dy Traversing a graph is a lot faster than index look-up. Used in many many graphics optimizations. Ever tried a graph database? If you can structure your often-used relationships in a graph, you don't need to search for them.
My main applications were full of complex relationships. Related to safety and law and much more. Things that have no fixed structure. Some depending on clients and their legacy databases. So managing relationships between different types of records can be slow and complicated via many index look-ups or fast and simple via simple OOP-interfaces and a graph.
Object Pascal has automatic managed memory of strings. So you only need to check the state of the objects/records that you use.
The windows interface gave were 99% the cause of problems. Not the memory management. Speed was never an issue, unless a database was involved.
I can now port the same data system to Nim without many problems. It does not have OO, but allows pointer-relationships. But it would be extremely hard to port to Rust.
I tried to help Rust by requesting a complex graph and graph-database interface. That would solve a lot of its restrictions.
@@zyxzevn You can use Rc/RefCell or Arc/Mutex to create self-referential structs. You can use unsafe Rust directly to create these as well. You can use arenas that allow you to have safe self-references in a "normal" way. Also the indexing approach you mentioned. Thus we have at least 4 different ways that Rust lets you write these kinds of structures, which is why I told you to get a refund. Sure, none of this is super easy to learn or very convenient to write, but neither is bashing out the equivalent in some other languages with comparable performance / reliability.
It’s really sad that the Journal is being censored. Top quality content on this channel.
The language something is made in should not be relevant to the end user.
They don't care about the end user. They only care about pushing Rust no matter what, just like C++ people did 25 years ago.
Now I totally want to write something in the ICI language just so I can say "I wrote this, PROGRAMMED IN ICKY, open source yada yada yada"
it is hard to come up with actual novel designs and ideas for Oses and applications. Much easier to reimplement something with a twist (different license, language, dependencies, ...)
YT up to its usual tricks again, right on schedule
And literally just because Lunduke shared the results of a poll from the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research. While even the far-left Frankfurter Allgemeine shared those same poll results...
Time for Primeagen to react to this...
+1 !!!!!!!
That guy is annoying af, idk why yt keeps pushing him to me, even though I've blocked him several times.
@@ashwinrawat9622 AI must know better than you, right?
@@_unknown_guy nope, I respect natural intelligence more than artificial one. AI cannot know more than a thinking man.
Rust is gay. That's why the US government likes it
Well... Ok, then.
Men of God only code in HolyC.
@@JefOliveira90the minute you can handle the reality about the old lodge boy in the apron up your butt, you let me know. (i'm talking about john quincy adams antimasonic party, and tyhe oj simpson mkultra child rape verdict coverup no american remembers Ever)
Lunduke used to be an okay, entertaining guy. Now I see he's attracted and catering to the worst of the far right. Is this 2003? Even homophobes don't say "that's gay" anymore.
Something being gay is a good thing for all! 🏳️🌈
"I'm such a bad coder that all programming proclivities in my project stem only from language features."
Programmed in Rust, Compiled with Fortran 77, and linked using Ada, just to be sure it's type safe, certified for US Government Projects, and memory safe to run on a Nintendo 8-bit modded to use a keyboard and mouse, but no Internet... Because that's not safe.
instead of picking on rust programmers, you should start a therapy group for rust programmers.
therapy only works when you can admit you have a problem, and, well yeah, good luck with that lol
Sounds like you're projecting a need for C++ programmers to join a therapy group.
Linux app stores are full of shovelware written in rust
I sometimes do the cat ears in some of my profiles, but I agree with this message. Saying it's written in rust with cat ears on is not only unprofessional, but does a disservice to all us nekos and fiurries that are not crazy lunatics. 😽😏
Rust has become emotional support tool to affirm being a competent SWE.
The sad part is, competent or seasoned plumbers, for example, may never be so vocal about how great the spanners they're using are.
Seniors can shows their competence by what they've achieved while juniors tend to cling to the tools they have learned or are using.
If one is serious about system programming, which Rust is used for, I would rather recommend to learn about operating systems, by digging the topic like how they manage hardware resources and abstract them from the processes.
I'm a backed dev and don't do system programming at all, but learning about operating systems was so beneficial to understand performance bottlenecks of application and database servers.
Frankly speaking, I didn't understand the essence of the complaint, considering that the description of the lion's share of repositories of small projects (not written in Rust) begin with "The program is written in the * language". And this makes sense, for example:
- to attract the attention of new developers (contributors) who are interested in the * language;
- to point out the advantages/disadvantages, because the program's performance sometimes greatly depends on the chosen language;
- to point out the need/lack of need for an interpreter or runtime;
And so on and so forth. And nitpicking about avatars/cat ears/references to fandoms and so on is the height of idiocy. If I were given a dollar every time for every cringe-worthy avatar of a developer I saw (which were long before Rust was born), I would already be a multimillionaire.
When you use Rust you're automatically better than everyone. Zero bugs, perfect features, too cool for the room. Because everything about being a software engineer is just syntax, rust and absolutely nothing else. The zealotry these days is absolutely off the charts.
Rust is a cult. Watch the "interview with senior rust developer in 2023." It's so funny because it's true.
There are many cults in tech, actually. One of the recent ones was called SOLID.
@@LedoCool1 SOLID isn't recent cult, SOLID is at least 20+ years old
@@JosifovGjorgi I guess I'm old enough to view 20+ as recent.
@@LedoCool1 Latest cult is C++ metaprgramming leet code.
Most projects declare the languages that they are written in. Whether that is Rust, C, Python, Go, TypeScript, JavaScript, Bash, Elixir, Erlang or whatever. To single out Rust specifically would indicate to me that you have some deeply rooted insecurity in seeing projects written in Rust. If you're noticing a lot of projects written in Rust lately, then there must be a lot of good qualities in Rust.
I am sorry you may once again be experiencing a split from activity upon RUclips. I have missed your works these last six years, thereabout.
This drives me crazy. The zealotry around rust is the #1 reason I refuse to work with it. The godawful syntax is the second.
A lot of people are really enthusiastic about thing, so I don't want to use thing.
@@ToumalRakesh It's crazy how much of a common take this is. It's literally just contrarianism lol.
Your contributions will not be missed.
@@paradox9551not wanting to participate in an obnoxious joke of a "community" is "just contrarianism"?
The AI known as Devin is coming for the catboy's job.
"written in pure JavaScript" made sense for utilities, like a low-priority client-side md5sum calculator, but... It's gotten weird. PNG parsing shouldn't happen in JS in production.
Linux wasn't professional, it got big on merit. Rust has merit, and I gotta say it Bryan, catcoders are making 7-figures.
We don't wear suits to work. We don't wear top hats. We wear cat ears.
The point of web-assembly is to solve that though. If you need to use a library in JS, it doesn't have to be JS. This is how it has been outside of the browser where you can mix languages. Instead people have been pushing web-assembly only for special performance critical code or web assembly on the server (makes my head hurt).
People seem to think that it being programmed in rust automatically means it's both fast and safe. But like, as with any language, you can still program it badly, in an unsafe way, with a terrible implementation that's slow. Yes rust has the potential to be fast and safe, but that's more dependent on the programmer than the language.
This kind of reminds me of RollerCoaster Tycoon. It was/is popular because it's a great game. But the fact that it was written in Assembly, is just an extra, interesting tidbit about it. It didn't become popular because it's written in ASM. It was not the selling point that "Game. Written in Assembly. By the way you can build a park in it too."
The ironic part about it all is that Rust isn't even better than C or C++, not unless you stop using the very features that they brag about giving it such an advantage. You cant make a program that is faster than C++ in rust without doing memory management (given that the product requires it) and operating outside Rust's "safe mode". Worse yet, the syntax for working with memory is intentionally terrible to try to dissuade you from doing it in the first place. Even despite all this effort, it still isn't really any faster than C/C++.
Yeah, the Rust evangelists always seem to be using some terrible early '90s strawman version of C and C++ (mashed together), rather than honestly comparing current rust(and libraries) to current C++(and libraries).
They also conveniently forget the importance of verified, time tested and finely optimized libraries when making important sorts of software and the difficulty of creating such libraries. ("Important" as in disaster will result from hitting a bad corner case, or electrical costs over $100,000 for each run of a calculation making double checking runs cost prohibitive.)
None of that is true. Proper memory management doesn't require raw pointer manipulation, and raw pointer manipulation won't magically make your software faster. There is no "safe mode", there are only unsafe functions. All of the safety mechanisms in Rust still apply in unsafe functions. The only difference is that unsafe functions let you dereference raw pointers and call into C libraries. It is almost entirely used to build Rust bindings for a C library.
Rust is a hyped thing. That's it. It's hyped enough to be a buzzword. Anyway, back to writing my FOSS-OS-microkernel in LLVM-IR.
you seem to dislike yourself writing a kernel in LLVM IR lol
@@yldrmcsor perhaps he just really likes LLVM IR
The best, most intrinsically secure programming language is ADA. Look, you can send rockets to space, like Ariane. Wait !
What about the chair-keyboard interface ?
I don't think it's necessary to show my identity to all users as a proof of legit software.
I can remember Grudl's speech (author of Nette) about how some folks printed out his photo, put it on wall and thrown a darts to it, just because Nette was buggy and pain to work with.
For everyone who is commenting that using anime cat photos does not demonstrate a lack of professionalism, that's subjective. But don't complain about regular people who aren't part of some strange cultural group on the modern internet (generally people who are in the programming field in a more professional or academic way) avoiding contact, or sticking with more known programming languages.
I think cat pee causes rust. 🤣
0:50 Well in this case "programmed in rust" is part of a list of adjectives. Of course it comes before the noun.
What is 'programmed in Rust' supposed to mean to the general public? Made with iron oxide?
It means developers are bad at marketing😂. But I also think it is made for enthusiasts, and not the general public.
I'm pretty sure the Golang community is even more pushy about this sort of thing.
Turns out the crazy cat lady down the road has an army of felines all recreating the cinnamon desktop for Amiga 3.1 in rust.
I did ask them to link in this post, but they all just scratched the post apart😂
8:58 puuurrrfectly goood
Written in rust does tell you who the target audience is.
I would they care about the normies? The rust group are the new Egyptian Gods, half man half animal, and so much better than all of us plebes.
People who list rust as a feature need to be locked up.
Waiting for the next video on the subject of rust
You're going to see a lot more catboys funded by White House money. They've endorsed it.
This seems to be more common in Rust but it isn't exclusive to Rust. I've seen this with "100% pure Java" before. Or all the projects that start with "js" - something. Or create-react-app... no your app isn't a react app, it is an app that does things, what DOM manipulation library you use is secondary as best. My feeling though is "Rust" as a feature is an intent to get people looking to tinker in Rust as contributors to the project. If your day job is Java and you want to work in Rust, that might be a feature to you. It is fine to have these kinds of projects for people to experiment and have fun. But yeah, they likely won't ever be anything serious.
The opposite, not being made in "X" language, is actually a feature. For ex, "not being programmed in javascript". Why is it a feature ? because the fact that its not made in JS already increased the quality of the software in at least 235%.
I have to disagree with the main idea of the video. The first example was obviously ridiculous, but there are many projects out there that tell you the language at the very beginning. Admittedly most C programs don't do that, because they have become a standard. But most programs written in C#, Go, oh hell, even JavaScript does that.
The redox one isn't a stupid description because that is what makes it special. If there's a kernel implemented in Zig, D, or C3, I'm pretty sure they will also mention that.
Not watched the vid yet, but very real title. The Ruffle flash emulator is written in Rust, but somehow it still fails to play nearly 20-year-old games at acceptable speeds (just 30fps would do). Best advertise the actual features instead of the useless backend details.
Memory safety is a very good reason to write an OS in Rust, that's why Redox advertises the fact that is developed in Rust.
While some of it is blatantly dumb, it's worth mentioning that nobody is going to rewrite something in C because it's a very old language with lots of flaws. The main appeal of rust is systems programming without so many serious memory bugs, this is what someone is implying when they say it's made in rust. This compares to C in which trivial things like strings can easily result in memory leaks or faults and CPP where anything and everything can result in a memory bug. Rust is a language that encapsulates a mindset that most memory bugs are avoidable mistakes and the programmer is not the only one at fault when something goes terribly wrong, and the compiler should always work to prevent dumb mistakes.
"Written in rust" tells me that their intention is to make their code to a high standard, both bare metal performant and also compile-checked correct. Whether or not the projects will live up to that reputation is a very different question
“It is not a bug, It is a feature”
Honestly, people wanting anime-style avatars with cat ears or full-on furry avatars doesn't faze me. Good code is good code, and as long as they don't actually think they're a pet, I'm not judgmental. If someone wants to use the username "voldemort69" and have a picture of a human-goldfish hybrid, I don't care. The point is, with Rust, the language itself isn't a feature. Projects relying on that as a selling point should rethink their whole approach.
This cult will ruin the Linux kernel
"programmed in Rust" like "programmed in C++ with MISRA". It makes sense.
Anyone else remember Tom Christiansen's talk about a complete userland written in Perl?
Programmed in C for people who don't want to be held hostage by their toolchains donors ESG score.
Finally someone told that lol
huh. what do you think about "made from scratch". why not "made from buddha" or "made from king arthur"
Can you even advertise it, as Rust is quite protective of its trademark?
usually it means "wokies made this"
I think it is when the language has features that make it safer, faster, and still gives control to the users and is syntactically more familiar to reason about than OCamel. Compile times are an issue that needs mitigating. But thats also because of the library problem. There are other languages like Zig that are interesting but nothing like as safe. Go in a couple of years when you have arena alocators to help avoid garbage related issues. I agree shinny zealots are a problem; loudly move onto the next shiny thing. Cat ears or not. Just read an article about it being possesed by alt right 4chan. Communists saying a business cant be a business also isnt helping.
the point of RedoxOS is not to be the superior OS, its actually a demo, that proofs the point of rust being usable at lower level. The autor wrote it in rust cause at that time there was nothing like this written in Rust. Some parts of it got wider adoption though. The same people developed popos/cosmic and they did not transfered that vibe of `written in rust`, or at least not that much of it.
None of the examples that you gave in this video is meant to be something more than a demo.
Programs that are supposed to be a real producst and it just happens to be written in rust are not marketed as `written in rust`
It's become much more than a demo in the last couple years. It's now a proper registered non-profit organization with a board.
This sounds like a long winded way to cosign that he was right.
People trust Rust and it lets them virtue signal as good devs right from the start
In case of RedoxOS is unfair and "low hanging fruit".
RedoxOS is kind a proof of concept, that is possible to write OS in Rust and also first (or one of firsts) such software in Rust, so is base for acquiring experience, common problems etc.
I didn't even know what Rust was till a few months ago when somebody mentioned the new PopOS! DE was going to be written in it. All I see in Linux is Python everywhere. To me, Python is the major language on Linux and Open Source software. BTW first image comes to mind of Cat people Stinky House and those guys probably have a face for radio to match.
mojo by chris lattner, while still bing in production, is much better than rust. rust is pretty damn cool though.
I REALLY hate Rust. It's a woke programming language. No, really, it is. They have a mega-woke Code of Conduct, pretty much all programmers who program in Rust are radical progressive activists.
"Programmed in Rust" usually just means "programmed by a Social Justice Activist" - it's a virtue signal, a sign that "hey, I'm woke, don't you dare to use my program if you are a conservative Chud!".
To me their CoC says "we attract a lot of unsocialised people and can't work out why".
I admit that Rust has some neat features, and that there are talented people using Rust and actually writing code.
All that is overshadowed by the cultural aspects, which make choosing Rust extremely Unsafe.
The zealotry means there will be a tonne of unprofessionally designed and poorly maintained junk accumulating in cargo. Rust + Cargo encourages deep dependencies (like npm)
It’s going to become an absolute minefield of horror to keep on top if this.
Compounding this is the dreadful financial situation that the Rust foundation has got itself into (it’s haemorrhaging money at an alarming rate), the burn out in the core devs, and the recent backlash against everything Rust that has been building up for well over a year.
Good chance it’s all going to implode.
Safer bet is to avoid Rust like the plague and go with more sensible options.
Love you Bryan, fighting the good fight
"Run to the hills! Run for your life!" Maybe it's not such a bad thing for Rust to be relegated to the dustbin of history. I'm sticking to C, C++, Java, and Kotlin as my core languages. Rust deviated completely from the C-based syntax of most mainstream languages, for no particularly good reason, and I would argue it's worse and not better, in addition to being different. Sure, there's some ideas of merit in the design of the language. I'm sure that a new language will eventually rise up to improve on all of Rust's innovations--and likely use a more C-like syntax. Additionally, I wouldn't be surprised if C++ evolves to incorporate some of Rust's better ideas, as options.
But C++ already has the good ideas that Rust stole from it. Everyone claiming that any feature from Rust should be incorporated into C++ just doesn't know the language.
Rustbin of history*
@@innocentsmith6091 LOL!
What are you doing Lunduke? Really. I've been listening to you for years, and this is your lowest point. Fact is, I know you're smarter than this.
Written in Rust is a shorthand for "written in a memory-safe (thus inherently more secure, and less likely to crash) language, that doesn't compromise on performance."
Not to mention, that the steep learning curve of the language means that any decently complex piece of software written in it means the developers are (likely, not all of course) experienced.
So yeah, written in Rust might not be a feature per se, but it communicates aspects about the quality of the software, which users should care about.
I've been writing Rust professionally (that is, as my family's main source of income) for 7 years. Working on mission critical commercial software. The people I've worked with on Rust-based projects were always of the highest professional caliber, never wearing cat ears, and without cartoon avatars, not that online personas matter. But it was almost always white dudes in their 30s-40s-50s with families, not that it matters either, but the furries were nowhere to be seen. What matters is that we chose the best tool for the job. And in the 2020s, the best tool the job, at least when it comes to system programming, is in many cases Rust.
Looking for thing online to be outraged about is beneath you.
I like you Blowhole. Do better. All the best.
"Written in Rust" = "I use the latest fad therefore I am cool."
Rust is a good language, but I expect online community will spoil it the same way as PHP or Perl.
@@AleksyGrabovskiwho spoiled PHP / perl?
Both script languages still used.
Sometimes they may be laughed at because they are old.
But if anything, C/C++ Will get that same treatment from the community, not Rust
@@AleksyGrabovski that’s my point, I know enough professional Rust developers IRL. None of them, as far as I know are a part of the “online community”. Which leads me to believe that this online community is… irrelevant when it comes to the Rust language itself, and the people who use it to do work.
They used Rust as shorthand 5 times, instead of promoting their product's stability and security. They allude to Rust having "innovations" without explaining what those are. The meme is real, and this is an example of it.
If online personas don't matter then everyone would be happy to be represented by a white M in an orange circle.
On Hackernews sometimes I now see projects tout "written in C" for those cozy retro vibes. But "written in (safe) Rust" IS a feature because Rust the language provides safety guarantees that eliminate whole classes of bugs. Before you mash reply with "sounds like a skill issue", the history of software shows that even experienced C and C++ programmers cannot avoid buffer-overflow and UAF bugs in real-world code bases. Rust... just fixes the problem.
As for the catgirls...
Astronaut 1: "You mean... hacker culture is queer?"
Astronaut 2: "Always has been..."
as a user of a library I personally dgaf which language the library is written in. I am focusing on functional and nonfunctional requirements and "written in rust` is not on these lists.
Was sorry to not see you at SCaLE21x this year.
Tons of people list programmed in CPP, Go etc. This seems like a poorly written rant, not to sure how I came about this. Rust has very real benefits over other languages.
Similar to how I'd rather use a WM written in C++ than Python or JS, I'd rather use one written in Rust. This is why people advertise it.
I expect that "programmed in rust" is meant to represent the value that rust brings to a project. A minix like kernel written in rust sounds like a neat idea to act as a foundation for a new generations of more secure IoT devices. I guess if you view the future as one of explicitly unadopting c/c++ because memory is hard, then Rust is in fact a feature. Lets think about that Rusty minix example again. OK so undifferentiated IoT gadget maker B decides that they are going to create a new generation of Wifi attached air quality sensors which reports its data to a cloud platform, and it can't utilize C/C++ based software because of liability or regulatory issues (or liability or regulatory issues within the expected lifetime of the product line), where does someone turn?
The thing is that Rust cultists tend to completely ignore all other languages that have similar or much better security guarantees, and present situation like the only choice is between C and Rust.
those features could be added to c/c++@@AleksyGrabovski
@@AleksyGrabovski Not to mention that depending on your project, garbage collection can absolutely be a perfectly viable solution.
@@seancollins9745 It's either C or it's C++, not both. And those features are already in C++, and have been since before Rust existed.
It's weird when projects advertise rust as the primary feature, except when they are designed as attempts to specifically do something in rust which people may otherwise not think is possible. They could instead mention that they are written with a focus on stability, security, and maintainability or something like that. But to be fair, mentioning rust at some point is a good shorthand for that.
RedoxOS is an attempt to figure out if/prove that rust is suitable for operating system development. It makes perfect sense it is pitched the way it is.
The whole cat people thing is just cringe inducing, both on the part of the people doing it and on the part of you for claiming it is in any way a significant chunk of people actually using rust.
was on board w/ you 'til the hyperfocus on people's avatars lol, v boomer
Im pretty "rust-agnostic" but cute cat boys is a pro not a con
All the angry cats are screaming in comments 😂
Bruh whats your problem with cat ears, they look dope
While I agree about "Programmed in Rust" not being a feature, I think your understanding of professionalism is misguided and narrow. Being a little silly is not "unprofessional" if the work is done competently and in a timely fashion. I don't think there's anything wrong with people having cat avatars (or even dressing up like cats) if they are pleasant coworkers ; and overall Rust developers seem to be pretty serious and dedicated, if sometimes overzealous. Yes, even the catboy ones.
On the other hand, a traditionally professional appearance is not a gauge of trustworthiness, there are plenty of suit-clad individuals who merrily waste everyone's time with nonsense and spend their day slacking off on candy crush.
rust catgirl 4 lyfe....lol yea its disturbing lol