Theory: Two Halbrands, One Sauron | Rings of Power
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- Опубликовано: 7 окт 2024
- Today, we're covering a theory that, while highly unlikely, is an interesting one nonetheless. We're looking at the potential that Halbrand wasn't always Sauron!
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Shoutout to @RingsandRealms for introducing me to the nugget of this theory that today's video is based on!
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I thought it was obviously Sauron from the beginning. His dialogue, armour, the focus given to him, his capability, his smithing.....I may have forgotten some things. All that was missing was the "I am Sauron" t-shirt.
HEH. That and a barely in-frame resume, showing references for Melkor as his previous employer, and some guy named "Flame of Udun". XD
Also his height
The way he snapped that dudes arm in Numenor and also desired to be a smith was a dead giveaway. I don't think a normal Halbrand would have acted so. I do like the idea that there is a man out there named Halbrand that is completely unaware of all of this and just shows up in Season two, like "hey why does everyone hate me?" haha
Yeah numenorians are one of the strongest beings in middle earth
haha that made me laugh "hey why does everybody hate me?" haha 😂
Made me laugh too lol
Apparently that scene was initially much darker/bloodier.
would love to see extra footage and throwaway scenes
In Numenor right before he smashes buddy's face off the wall, he says "call me ..." The name is hard to hear. So i looked up Sauron's names and one is "Aulendil" awsome show
Halbrand is a red herring. The real Sauron is Isildur's half eaten apple, slowly floating its way back to Numenor
Finally someone who saw that. I thought I was the only one.
@@deceiver444 Forget mystery boxes, these writers are all about mystery apples
I don't think so because he asks adar if he knows him...I think he's asking adar if he knows him as sauron.
Maybe but why would Adar recognize him if the Halbrand physical form looks so different than the one from before being split open by Adar? Would Sauron just expect Adar to "feel" it? It sounded like Adar and Sauron knew each other well. How would he not remember what he looks like, and if Sauron knows he looks different then why would he ask that question?
@@SouthernItalyHomestead all I'm saying is that halbrand(sauron) is pissed by adar nearly killing him....because maybe of what he did to him when he is sauron. But adar can't recognized him. Lucky for him galadriel is there.
Would have been a bit awkward if Adar went "Is that you, Sauron" in front of Galadriel. A risky question, actually.
Would be my argument against this theory, too. The whole Halbrand vs. Adar scene where Adar is almost killed would make no sense if Halbrand was not Sauron. Except if Halbrand (the human) had his own reason to be mad at Adar, but that would be both too complicated and unnecessary from a storytelling point of view.
I agree with the observation about Halbrand grilling Adar about recognizing him. Halbrand/Sauron recognized him, and knew he couldn't let Adar reveal his true identity to Galadriel. If Adar had recognized Sauron, Sauron would have killed him. Because Adar said no, Sauron was fine with Galadriel stopping him from killing Adar. It was a test of sorts.
Doesn’t work for me, Galadriel says she felt his power next to her during the fight in the Southlands. I thought this was a pretty clear nod at Halbrand being Sauron.
@@KacperRybicki-v7t false
@@cp37373 true
Your right! Your right...
I haven’t watched the full video yet but I’m assuming the idea is during the eruption Sauron kills Halbrand and takes his form. It would still make sense if Galadriel felt Saurons power as he would probably be near by and Galadriel may have assumed it came from Halbrand. I would be less annoyed about Halbrand being Saroun if this was true because it would mean he wasn’t tricking Galadriel the whole time.
Plot twist. Sauron is Guyladriel
I will say I’m disappointed that they kind of threw away a lot of Sauron’s agency to play the “who’s Sauron” game. Sauron infiltrates Eregion with the express purpose of forging the rings to corrupt the elves, he has a plan and executes it almost flawlessly until he puts on his master ring. In the show it feels like he just kind of ends up in erigion because of Galadriel and while he’s there goes “yeah alright I guess I can work with this“
I think you put way more thought into the characters of Rings of Power than the entire team at Amazon.
This. People tryna draw theories out of terrible writing where no coherent theories exist is funny
@@paulalwright629 LOL, whatever dude
@@greeneyedmonster1174 It is funny, sorry for your lack of literature knowledge...
@@DaleBattleField101 lol, you're an absolute mess
The alley fight made it clear that we were dealing with a bad guy. He was so brutal; breaking someone's arm like he did would take serious strength and deliberation. Also, I remember him flashing a look that said, "Well, this is inconvenient" instead of a normal emotion like fear or resolve.
That “inconvenience” look was awesome.
@@mrs.manrique7411 Agreed
This video reminds me of when season 8 of GOT was airing and everyone kept coming up with theories that were better than what we actually got because no one could believe the writing was actually just that terrible.
Exactly
Everyone who attended Primes theatre showings and previews got a year of free prime and exclusive deals and discounts so of course this RUclipsr (even tho he's the best Tolkien RUclipsr imo) is going to talk about the show as if its great
Im probably not the only one but i knew he was sauron literally since his first sentence in the series when he said "looks can be decieving"
Most people with half a brain functioning got it at that very moment
This theory requires ignoring several pieces of dialogue and Halbrand/Sauron claiming (correctly) that Galadriel was responsible for bringing Sauron back, which was foretold in the first episode by Gil-galad.
Everyone tells Galadrial to chill, not let her hate blind her. Galadrial dismisses them because she thinks her hate for Sauron is a good thing, unwittingly giving Sauron the means and drive to return to Middle Earth and resume his reign. ROP is not good, but the theme of Galadrial's blind pursuit and how it reinvigorated a defeated Sauron was pretty well done.
You are giving the writers a LOT of credit
No. This theory is worse than we got.
this theory may be bad but it's still far too complex for the writers
@@Dan-uf2vh It's complex, but lame and far fetched. But I guess he has to talk about something to keep his channel going.
@@fiber_king2334 yep. Another 10 things you didn't know about .. 😆
@@fiber_king2334 If you watch Rings and Realms, it's a bit tongue in cheek, in that Corey liked the season 1-7 Halbrand and wishes there was a way we could have the good Halbrand and the Sauron Halbrand. Don't think even he expects it to be true. But it is a fun theory and would help explain some plot holes.
It's an interesting theory, but it doesn't work. Specifically, the dialogue at the end between Galadriel and Sauron makes no sense if he's been Halbrand all along: "I told you that I had done evil, and you did not care." - Sauron "I should have left you on the sea." -Galadriel "A sea that you were on because the Elves cast you out... What will they do when you tell them that you were my ally? When you tell them that Sauron lives because of you?" -Sauron For me, especially that last line about him saying he's alive because of her relates back to when they first met on the raft. Plus, the showrunners have stated in interviews that the whole point of the season was Halbrand being Sauron, but that they couldn't reveal it in the beginning or it would essentially make season one not work. Due to the big reveal that Halbrand was Sauron this whole time. It's clear to me that they were trying to show the parallels between Galadriel and Halbrand's behaviors or struggles. Sauron being Halbrand means that Galadriel needs to wisen up. What does that say about Galadriel if she's drawn to Sauron? That they have some similarities but Galadriel makes better choices in the end. Also, Charlie Vickers gave an interview about his acting. They had him audition as Richard III and Satan before revealing to him that he'd be playing Sauron, but he obviously figured it out. He also said in an interview that he played Halbrand as Halbrand. However, he did that because he thought it was the only way that Sauron could do it. That Sauron had to sort of become Halbrand in order to be convincing as Halbrand. He couldn't be of two minds. The only way the theory works is if Halbrand died before the show and Sauron took on his form and took the pouch. That seems more realistic. It's possible then that Sauron killed the last Southlands king a long time ago and that's how he got the pouch off a dead man. It's also possible that Sauron gave himself a self-inflicted wound to get close to the Elves.
Honestly, it’s both the simplest solution and the best.
I still don't understand why Adar didn't recognize him and why Halbrand seemed to expect that he would.
@@SouthernItalyHomestead Adar killed Sauron's "body" shortly after Morgoth was defeated and that made him questioning himself and he was about to give up on his mission to "heal" the earth when he met Galadriel. He had already been Halbrand for centuries while building up his strength (since Adar killed his former body). That's why he's asking Adar "Do you remember me?", but Adar have never seen Halbrand before. But I think he suspects that Halbrand is Sauron's new body. That's why he's asking him "Who are you?". And who released Adar from his shackles when the volcano erupts? 😉
@@milosen6744 The building blew apart and the shackles were released from where they were bolted. Then he was free to leave, and found a way to get the shackles off his body.
@@the_real_littlepinkhousefly The shackles are still bolted to the post and are on the floor of the barn where Adar sat/lay listening to the water, but Adar is gone. You see a glimpse of it just before the barn blows up.
It's an attractive theory to explain some of Halbrand's "non-Sauron-y" actions (e.g. smiling at kids, getting stuck on a raft with random humans, saving Galadriel and Elendil), but in my opinion it would only hurt the show if this theory turned out to be true. It would be very confusing for casual fans and would just raise more questions like why a legit human Halbrand would have been claiming to be the heir to the Southlands throne before the eruption when the last king died without an heir 1,000 years ago.
I also think one problem with this show so far is not that they've made changes, but that the changes they've made have mostly been for the purpose of adding unnecessary twists and trying to artificially generate buzz by encouraging viewers to speculate about who everyone secretly is. This "two Halbrands" theory would only add to that distraction. Whether you love or hate the idea of Halbrand being Sauron the whole time, I think it would be better if they just move forward with what they've started and kind of "get back on track" with adapting the actual story rather than looking backwards and adding new twists and explanations for stuff that happened in Season 1.
Those questions would be the least of the show’s problems.
Totally agree with you. I’ve known LOTR before watching the movies and it didn’t take anything from my watching experience. It’s not about adding mysteries/twists really, too cheap of a trick…
I know they love the mystery box approach and I do get why they would incorporate that approach these days, especially for casual viewers. A couple of mysteries are fine, but the constant littering of them so far tip into the frustrating rather than compelling. You can just let the story speak for itself at times, in a much more Tolkien-esque way. It risks creating too many loose ends to tie up which would be a nightmare for a fantasy show basing itself on the most comprehensive legendarium ever.
@@ElwingLuna the mystery box approach here only serves to cover up the abysmal script. They do it because it's the only writing trick they have up their sleeve.
As if the writers of this show could come up with an idea like this one
Oh you’re so cool. Wonder how long it took you to come up with this comment…
So edgy... good job.
Please dont even give them ideas to be creative the opposite you want will happen they will break it
Amazon writers are like cavemen with big clubs beating people over the heads with plot points and thinking they're subtle.
@@zStC1 soy boy
According to the Silmarillion, at the end of the First Age- after Morgoth's defeat- Sauron plead with Eonwe for mercy, but ultimately couldn't bring himself to return to the west for judgement.
Seems likely to me this is why Galadriel meets him lingering near Valinor- and that would suggest that, yeah, he's been Sauron the whole time.
While I find your theory interesting, I also feel like the version of Sauron being presented in the show (as Sauron, from the start) is also interesting. I found his speech to Galadriel at the end- that he didn't see the difference between ruling Middle Earth and healing it to be very compelling.
Sauron was, after all, apprentice to Aule. His original purpose was to build things.
And there is- as you may recall, a prophecy spoken of concerning Galadriel's pursuit of Sauron- that her obsession may be the thing that leads to his rekindling in Middle Earth. It seems like that is the version of things that did, indeed, come to pass.
Yes to all of this. I've been saying the same thing when folks say it makes no sense why Sauron was on The Sundering Seas... Of course it makes perfect sense, especially when considering "Of the Third Age..." chapter in The Silmarillion
@@greeneyedmonster1174 Again I doubt these writers could come up with that.
@@greeneyedmonster1174 man finally some people who know enough Tolkien to know the show writers aren’t being completely contrary to Tolkien and are true to the spirit without being super pissy at every timeline change/compression and expecting it to be exactly canon
@@greeneyedmonster1174 It has no sense because Sauron despises humans, wandering in a human form "just because" is stupid... He went into hiding because he wasn't willing to return to Valinor, he was afraid of the consequences and the punishment... Wandering at the sea, in human form, with human companions, is far away from his character, it is also stupid to think that he was tracking Galadriel, he was not omniscient...
@@Manlio.Cipullo lol, "just because"... yeah and I'm the one with literary issues 🤣
In the mind-games sequence, didnt he tell Galadriel he wanted to stay in Numenor. Perhaps he was Sauron from the get go, and his initial plan was to corrupt the Numenoreans first and gain control of their fleet and soldiers.
You beat me to it Brandon. Too bad the Bezo-possessed Galadriel coaxed him into deviating from Tolkien's original lore! 🤣🤣
Exactly this. People are just wholesale ignoring tons of what actually happens in this show to make it plausible.
@@jmwoods190 in the original lore... he was beaten 2x by the Numenorians and only in the 2nd time was he dragged to Numenor
See, this makes sense to me. He was always going to go to Numenor. I suspect he’s just really good at improvising and taking advantage of opportunities.
Except that at this point in the show, Numenor doesn't really seem to have a professional army, nor a fleet beyond the local-focused Sea Guard. I'm not sure why Numenor at this point would even be on Sauron's radar, much less the focus of his plans.
I think everything we have seen so far points to the show runners having written this entire series in a manner that never originated at the root of the entire story...the rings themselves. If the writing had branched out with multiple story points that converge into a single, long and glorious production of the rings of power all at once, we'd be viewing stories evolve in several separate points in Middle Earth that revolved around separate Dwarf Lords and human kingdoms.
My guess for the forging of the other 16 rings is that Celebrimbor is just going to straight up ignore Galadriel's warning and work with Halbrand. I think both Elrond and Galadriel are going to leave Eregion, Elrond returning to Lindon and Galadriel to Numenor, Lindon, or Mordor. Because Galadriel doesn't tell Celebrimbor *why* he shouldn't work with Halbrand, he is going to trust the guy who helped save the entire Elven race over the Galadriel. The elves already question her judgement over believing Sauron exists still, she was supposed to have gone west, etc. She doesn't have the *greatest* reputation so it isn't hard for me to believe that Celebrimbor would trust Halbrand over her if he was offering something Cel wanted.
He totally gives a look when Galadriel warns him not to talk to Halbrand that says, “…I’m totally gonna talk to him again.”
Sounds right
Which makes all this plot stupid, so stupid that only baboons can believe it is a good storytelling...
Not to mention, Sauron is known for persuading/deceiving people
This is too smart for the level of writing this show has demonstrated so far 😂😂😂
Two Halbrands One Sauron! not to be confused with Two Girls One-
I feel awful for getting that reference. Well at least I didn’t watch “it”
@@husky0098 lucky you are 🤮
Two Saurons, one ring
💩
@@husky0098 you watched “it”, be honest 😅
Halbrand is Annatar, that is why he said his advice was "a gift". They apparently didn't get the rights to use the name Annatar.
I was thinking he may come back in season 2 as Annatar, but this is actually a great point.
Mind blown... God... Rop is so bad
@@lukeit7949 That does not prove it’s bad. It’s only a flat statement: they didn’t have the rights to the name.
@@lukeit7949 Bad? seriously just cause one or a few or even half is bad doesnt mean the entirety and efforts of all the production would be.
is it so easy to say “bad” these days just cause of one or two issues? jeez
@@Liaison_Verequiem one or two issues? you mean in every scene?
I enjoy the theorizing so much! Thanks for looking for the good in the show and for the things that can be discussed and debated. It's always felt like discussion is the true heart of fandom. I enjoyed the show despite the changes from the books. I have enjoyed so much of your discussions about it. Thanks again!
I think the writers have no idea what they are doing and are whipping the story together with minimal foresight or thought.... If they watched this video they'd probably be like, hey yeah sure, whatever... That can be the story too...
Interesting theory. BUT I think it doesn't work because one reason: Halbrand is Sauron from the very start of the show because THE MUSIC is telling us this. Not because Bear McCreary believes that but because he's following the showrunners' plot :)
What do you think of the theory that the Halbrand/Sauron that we see for most of season 1 is a version of Sauron that is toying with repenting after the War of Wrath?
We know that Sauron does consider this (whether it's genuine or not is debatable). My theory is that he ends up on a raft in the Sundering Seas because he was on a boat to Valinor to be jugded, but has second thoughts and, yadda yadda yadda, he ends up on a raft.
However, although he has decided not to go to Valinor, he could still be toying with the idea of repenting, and so the version we see up until the end of episode 7 (when he's seen with the lance wound) is one who is internally conflicted between good and evil. This would make his actions in Numenor and even the Southlands before the eruption of Mt. Doom make more sense. There are times when he does seem more good, like "smiling at the children" or saving Elendil from death during the battle. And then there are times when he's more evil, like stealing the guild crest and beating the pants off of those guys in the alley. So there's definitely some nuance to his character.
It isn't until he feels again the lust of battle and gets a taste of the power associated with being held up as the lost king of the Southlands that I believe he turns back to evil for good. So basically from the end of episode 7 and on.
So basically what we're seeing for most of season 1 is a conflicted Sauron, up until the end of episode 7, at which point he goes back to fully evil. I like this theory because it explains behavior that would be hard to attribute to a dark lord, it adds dimension to the character, and it brings in part of the lore that is not otherwise there (Sauron's possible repentance).
My favorite observation about Halbrand, from an AV Club comment, is that Annatar's "fair form" was not some otherworldly elfin being who shows up out of nowhere, but a Hero's Journey figure akin to Aragorn. A chosen one adrift from his destiny, who first refuses then accepts the call to adventure, and finally rides to the rescue as the hero who was promised. A fair form both that Second Age residents and a modern epic fantasy audience would embrace.
this is pretty solid. This Sauron/Annatar/Halbrand we have is exactly that ... for whatever reason, now, he wants to be a hero, but at the same time, he can't help wanting to latch himself to precious things, possess them, and corrupt them, and he thinks he's a hero. From what we can tell from the showrunners, they didn't put near the thought we are putting into it : )
"Think of it as a gift". 👌🏻✌🏻
Right, I think that’s exactly it, that the “fair form” doesn’t necessarily have to be elf, and this is his fair form: Halbrand. We even see Halbrand teasing the notion of marriage to Galadriel and she almost considers it before remembering who she just found out he is- the corrupted Maiar who killed her brother. I think there’s something interesting and appealing about that to people, because it both demonstrates Galadriel’s ability to be tempted, which will be important background for the third age when she meets Frodo, and it also establishes that Sauron has this capacity to pull on someone’s heart strings, not just their fears but their desires when he tempts and coaxes, and this can set us up for how he goes about “gifting” the remaining rings.
@@azureflametarot You know, we could still possibly see Annatar, an elf. This story is far from fully baked as of now. Even the Nazgirls could shapeshift at ease, so he could even get help from some more of them if Hal doesn't actually shapeshift.
As Annatar, Sauron claimed to be an emissary from the Valar so I think he would have a beautiful form. It reminds me of Sam's mistrust of Strider and Frodo saying that a servant of the Enemy would look fairer but feel fouler.
This theory overcomplicates things and the only purpose it serves is trying to "fix" bad writing. This theory also ignores the scene between Halbrand and Adar. Also, even if Halbrand was replaced, that wouldn't cause the lineage revelation to change. Halbrand is definitely Sauron the entire time, and there's little reason to think otherwise.
A better theory than this:
"I'm Amazon And I Say Screw All Your Nerdy Stories! You Should Thank Us For Giving You Three Of The Rings! This Is *_OUR_* Circus, After All!!"
the other rings were forged "off camera." It'll start with Elrond asking who should get the three rings, Celebrimbor reveals that Halbrand helped them forge sixteen rings. It'll fade into a montage of them forging the rings with Celebrimbor explaining how they were made. It'll end with Celebrimbor asking Halbrand who taught him how to craft, in which Halbrand will say Annatar.
@@PraetorianG2004 well then, they already fucked up then
@@Alexshorten7343 No, he means according to the poem. You know, three rings to..., seven rings to..., nine to..., One to...
@@PraetorianG2004 Because that’s not the order they were made in. They were made the 16(9 for men 7 for dwarves) then the 3 were made without Sauron. Doing it in the order of the verse isn’t how it was originally so that’s why they commented that.
I would lean toward this, even though it seems kind of contrived.
@@atm8733 ALL the rings but the one were made for elves. At least the elves thought so, they never intended to give them to men or dwarves.
If Sauron was on the raft, he was playing 4D chess to an absurd level!
Yeah he was thats the whole point of sauron
He is called Sauron the Deceiver
A clever and manipulative being, sure, but Saron isn't omniscient; it's absurd that he would know Galadriel was on the elven ship, the route and time, that she would jump into the water and attempt to swim hundreds of miles, and be there to pick her up on an unguided raft.
Why didn't he killed Galadriel in the eight episode after her brain finally manages to connect the dots and she realizes what Halbrand's true identity is ?
You: “part of me imagines Sauron as Halbran with pointy ears and a blonde wig trying to fool everyone.”
Amazon after a year: "its pretty good idea and cheap .. let's do it"
😂😂😂😂
Here's a theory. Rings of power sucks regardless of how many Saurons there are.
Best theory so far...
Based
I would appreciate this theory more than Halbrand being Sauron.
That's not tolkins souron. That's amazon souron. So there. No need for further analisis. Lets better stay with the real cannon.
My wild theory to make things more interesting is Adar's line about how he "split him open. I killed Sauron". What if the Adar used the magic Sauron was experimenting with in Episode 1 to literally split him in two? Adar might have thought he was killing him, but what he did was create Halbrand and... Annatar? Then Annatar can set about forging the other rings and the two parts of Sauron can eventually unite later in the show.
That's my thought Idea too, I think the stranger is the other part. Which will be a way for the quote "And into this Ring he poured his cruelty, his malice and his will to dominate all life" to make sense. The stranger is all of that, he is the ring. Which makes Nari a ring bearer of sorts. A hobbit brought the ring to be destroyed in mount doom. A harfoot will end up bringing the "ring" to be forged in the fires of mount doom.
@@olesideburns This doesn’t work though, as the sorcerers of Sauron say directly that the stranger is an Istar.
@@Solaris132 They are only confused because he sided with the harfoot and chooses to be good. They were sent to find Sauron, as a falling star, with the same symbol. The only other way that makes sense is if there is another fallen star in next season.
That scene is meant to be powerful because someone that is just shown who they are, which is evil, chooses to be good because of their friends they have made. The stranger is an examination of what it means to be evil, or to do good.
@@olesideburns But you forget the stranger spends time explaining what Istar means, after he gets his memory back
No, that wont work...Saurons main experiments on the orcs was power not of the flesh but over flesh, hence the soul.
Halbrand was always Sauron.
The scene between Halbrand & Adar was pretty loaded and it would only make sense if he was Sauron and Adar said he has killed Sauron.
It seemed like a strange thing for Halbrand to say to Adar, "Do you remember me?", didn't it...even later in the barn, Adar asks Halbrand, who he is. So when Adar "cut Sauron in two", he couldn't have looked like Halbrand at the time. Unless Adar is privy to all Saurons plans & is just playing along.
Hope they give us a flashback.
At around 4:38 you say “part of me imagines Sauron as Halbran with pointy ears and a blonde wig trying to fool everyone.”
Cut to 1 year later and that’s exactly what he looks like in ROP season 2.
Crazy!
Perhaps Sauron met the Real Halbrand during his travels. And he was the long lost heir to the Southlands (like Aragorn was to Gondor) and so his name wasnt included in the elven records. Somehow Sauron found out and now he wanted the Southlands for himself so that he could turn it into Mordor. So he killed him, stole his memories and the crest then he assumed his form. Just as Sauron said, “he found it on a dead man” which means he killed the real Halbrand
I gave up on RoP producers to do anything clever like this.
This is actually an amazing theory, I would really love to see this, My main problem with this series is that Galadriel is shown as an complete Idiot, she brought "Sauron" to Numenor, Eregion, Mordor...I mean that means she is responsible for all troubles from 2nd and 3rd ages! This theory would resolve that problem because as we have seen Galadriel started to supect Halbrand to be Sauron only when they came to Eregion, it maches perfectly with your theory...So yeah, just as we all want 4k Mithril Edition, I want this theory to be true!
As far as Annatar is concired I belive that in Season 2 Sauron will take a new form (a new actor) and he will try once more to infiltrate into Elven kingdoms and make the other 16 rings of power but this time Galadriel, Elrond and all other -except Celebrimbor would be far more careful than before!
Matt this theory is just great and now Im even more happier to rewatch this series! Great video!
Better yet, let season 1 just be a near death experience for galadrial and just have her wake up on a beach in season 2 and reboot the whole first season more true to the lore
@@ODST_Republic why not restart the show from scratch with a new team of writers who like Tolkien, experienced showrunners and a cast of talented actors ?
Keep in mind, she was targeted by Sauron.
What chance did she have against that?
When the knowledge of who he is, is not there to be known until, it is too late.
*That is how deceptions work......... too little, too late on knowing the Truth, of what is occurring.
A being like Sauron, been around for so long, serious power, serious knowledge, greatest Lier/deception maker, best chess player = If, Sauron was not created a lesser being but, greater like Melkor, Melkor would be serving Sauron.
Melkor innate automatic more powerful and nothing Sauron could do. For the design to each, was what it was. Melkor maxed out what he could be in power, as did Sauron but, neither could go into the next phase in power. Always locked and bound to the design they were created in/with.
Side Note: Evil betrays and Sauron may have done that to Melkor which, gave way to Sauron being in charge with his agenda and the creation of Mount Doom and the Rings. Sauron know Melkor can beat him in sheer power thus, deception maker that he is, used that against Melkor.
Sauron steered Good to win I think. So he could be the one, who reigns supreme and not Melkor later. For all it takes, is 1 moment of 1 action withheld or 1 action made, that could topple Melkor by Sauron and I think, that is what Sauron did at the right place and at the right time. Sauron was a lot more intelligent than Melkor and above most on the board in Middle Earths major players.
Tolkien would be weeping at what this huge, corrupt corporation has done to his creation.
It's likely that Halbrand's wound is the same one Adar gave Sauron centuries (?) ago when Adar says, "I split him open. I killed Sauron". In other words, Sauron has physically "recalled" the wound from his previous body into Halbrand's for deceiving appearances. He's a shapeshifter, and would have a deep memory of that event. I'm guessing it's another mystery box to be revealed in Season 2, perhaps via a flashback scene at the old northern fortress where we see Adar impale Sauron with a lance, in the same torso location as Halbrand's wound.
Could halbrand have been heading to the undying land to risk their judgement, and then have a change of mind when a motivated Galadriel swims into his midst?
Makes a ton more sense than this "theory".
@@greeneyedmonster1174 that's a tad deep for the writers of this show
Omg that totally checks out. Really hope that’s the case as it’s almost cannon too
I like the theory that there might be two Halbrands, but I think it`s too sophisticated for the series 😉 I for one thought at some point that Waldreg could be Souron - that would be out of the blue! 😅 My theory is as follows: Galadriel didn`t tell Celebrimbor who Halbrand was, only not to trust him anymore. But given that without his help Celebrimbor wouldn`t make the three rings it is possible that Hal could return to Eregion as himself and the Elves would welcome him and work with him again (due to Celebrimbor`s need to match Feanor). It`s also unclear if Elrond knows who Halbrand truly is. He just saw the scroll and figured out Halbrand isn`t who he says he is. Galadriel also didn`t clarify that. As far as Elrond knows Galadriel has a secret concernng the true identity of the King of the Southlands. So I`m guessing the Annatar story will be skipped and Halbrand will return to make the rings, probably when Elrond is not around. Also I don`t see Galadriel taking the first ship to Numenor to say "Hey people, so the guy I brought with me turned out to be the big bad enemy I`ve been chasing for thousands of years. Sorry for making you go all the way to Middle-Earth to die in vain. Miriel sorry for blinding you and sorry for making you miss your father`s death. Remember, Halbrand is a big no no . C ya" 😁 After the council in the dungeon Pharazon will welcome Halbrand with arms wide open still thinking he`s the king. And we all know how that ends. Maybe he`ll bring Isildur with him... 🤔 I can see how he gets captured by the Orcs and brought to Adar, who most probably will get killed by Halbrand.
Idk... that`s just off the top of my head 🙃
It will be like that. Galadriel hasn’t said why they shouldn’t cooperate with Halbrand (hasn’t revealed his true identity) and as we know, Celebrimbor wanted to do sth great and be remember forever and it was worth to him more than anything else, so he knew that Halbrand is brilliant, so when he will come to him, he will let him work with him, but try to not show it to other elves and the person of Annatar won’t happen, because basically it was mentioned in the first season, when he said that this ability to mix metals was a gift for Celebrimbor, so they will not use Annatar
This checks out
Edit: This wouldn’t work, he says to Adar before the eruption “REMEMBER ME?!”
Narrator: they're not
I still think Sauron poisoned the tree in Lindon to manipulate and scare the elves into procuring mythril and securing infrastructure (through Celebrimbor) for his project (which we know initially failed in the north when Adar rebelled). Something about the nature and urgency of the whole project smells iffy, not to mention the young tree in Moria is NOT dying/poisoned. Sauron might have even suggested to the king to send Galadriel away to Valinor since she's on his tail.
And Sauron probably travelled to Mordor after sending Galadriel away to catch up with Adar, then Numenor came and Doom erupted. He was probably watching the whole thing from afar and thought he could use Halbrand for his plans. Sauron assumes his shape in the chaos (and, with a bit of sorcery, assumes his memories, etc. It's likely he could do this since we saw him assume Finrod) but was found out by Halbrand, and they fought, wounding Sauron-Halbrand.
Unlikely to happen but I thought it neat!
But the original Halbrand would still have been lying about being king of the south lands, whether he’s being impersonated or not
Ye this disproves the theory immediately
This show was SUCH a missed opportunity that it makes me terribly sad
Not necessarily, if the 'real' Halbrand is a descendant of Ulfang. He could be the true human King of the Southlands, in that case.
I've been noticing your insight through the whole series.
You fail to grasp that Sauron isn't just evil. He's manipulative. Meaning he will do good to get what he wants in the end.
Tolkien's grasp of human behavior went completely over your head
Nah that writer's aren't that clever. It sucks to see people trying to fix this show with theories. I was fine with the show for the most part till the last two episodes.
i think we need so fast season 2 Nerd of the Rings!! nice explain 👍👍👌👌
I suspected Halbrand of something as soon as we met him. The way he brushed off the deaths of all those other people on the “boat,” not to mention how weird it would be for them to be that far west. I assumed they were trying to get to Valinor since they were apparently within swimming distance (for an elf, but still…) and generally Valinor is an invitation-only kind of place. Still, it wasn’t until the rings came up that I had any thought of him being Sauron.
Honestly, though, I’m way more interested to know what has happened to Celeborn (who Galadriel said was dead but is very much definitely alive in LOTR).
I still think its the tall spaceman that fell from the stars
The only problem I have with Sauron as Halbrand, is the raft scenes. I don’t imagine Sauron would so readily put himself in the hand of Ulmo or even Osse. I do not recall any inclination towards water. More so, the ringwraiths seem to afraid of water throughout the lord of the rings, probably because the strength of Ulmo is still there (as it was in the First Age). For Sauron to go to sea seems very risky on his part, and a bit out of character.
Makes sense, good point. The show runners might neglect this bit of lore, however.
Sauron was probably hoping to get to Numenor and live a regular life or maybe even find passage to the Undying Lands. Then the boat got destroyed and he meets Galadrial. A theme of the story is Sauron was lost until Galadrial unwittingly renewed his ambitions with her desire to find and kill Sauron. That moment on the raft when the two crossed path is where Sauron started his comeback. So it has plot and thematic purpose in the vision.
I don't know if this works. I think he was Sauron from the start. I'd even go so far as to say that everyone on that raft that saved Galadriel was an aspect of Sauron, but he stuck to Halbrand afterwards because Halbrand was the form that would appeal to Galadriel's own prejudices.
I think he's going to be Halbrand in Mordor and he's going to take the aspect of Annatar in Eregion. Sauron can do stuff like that in this era.
He can take the form of a human, but the other people were real, Galadriel would have know if they were fake...
I think lotr can be a little shallow in its portrayal of the evil characters. I think a Sauron who can see the beauty of the world but also wants to control it through power is a much deeper story, and relates back to his origins as a fallen Angel of sorts. His soul, despite having good intentions, has been corrupted by the path of absolute power and domination.
You quite literally described Sauron as Tolkien wrote him. He desires order, structure, but it’s the depths he’s willing to go to while pursuing this end that make him abominable. He seeks to dominate so that he can enact his own corrupted vision of an orderly world
@@thinkwithurdipstick yeah, his origins in the lore, instead of the one note character of the Peter Jackson films.
Dear Nerd of the rings, I am a huge fan of your content. I can understand that if you receive some money from Amazon to speak in favor of the show during its release. I mean, every man loves and needs money. But please don't stretch it. Creating theories about this show is a complete waste of time and it's just ridiculous. Any lore video of yours is way better and deeper than the whole show. Please respect your own work.
Completely agree
💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀
It is a neat theory, though someone mentioned elsewhere the “Sauron angry eyes” appear for a couple frames during the Numenor fight.
Also he’s just clearly Sauron from word Go (but I do like this idea.)
I think the biggest problem with this theory is the necklace. If there are 2 Hals then we need a reason why the first Hal had the pouch. I think the show has shown us so many times it's taking the simpler paths instead of making things complicated. Seems way easier to have a flashback next season of Sauron dying by Adar's hand and being resurrected somehow near the sea.
But the line of the Southlands was broken.
If Halbrand wasn't Sauron, why would he lie about being a King's heir?
No matter how you theorize it, it all goes back to bad writing, big egos and disrespect for the lore. The Rings of Power has butchered so much of Tolkien's work that it is Lord of the Rings in name only. So many things wrong such as erasing the story of Beren and Luthien only to give Galadriel a sub par poorly executed revenge arc. Stealing lines from the Jackson Trilogy. The creation of Mt. Doom by turning a key. The stupid creation origin of mithril. And turning Numenor hatred of the Valar to racism to the elves and basically emphasizing it with a recreation of South Park's "They took our jobs" scene.
This theory wholly defeats Galadriel's arc in the series. I not only think it's not true, but it also takes away from the narrative, if true
ok, but besides all this. why was Sauron on the raft in the middle of the ocean.... what was the benefit to him?
+JMJ What you mention would be a very clever plot twist. It would certainly be nice, but how would we be able to justify his stated desire to BIND the fighting spirit(?) of Galadriel to himself before his reveal? And before this in Numenor, he eyes the forges with covetousness (this also really screams SAURON SAURON SAURON). Let us remember that in Akallabeth Sauron looks upon Numenor with great awe, but also with great envy. Halbrand/Sauron's foray into Numenor may very well justify Sauron's later plans to subdue its people.
Really? Were doing more theory crafting? Why? At this point, who cares? I'm so tired of people trying to make it seem like McKay and Payne were playing 4D chess or something with the mystery boxes. They can't even play checkers.
If there were to be anything worth following up LOTR I have always wished there were a book that told the story of the "Dagor Dagorath" that was briefly mentioned in the "Silmarillion". I agree that "The New Shadow" was perhaps not the best story to tell. I guess because of J.R.R. Tolkien's devout religious beliefs that he wove into the legendarium, I would have liked to see how he would've completed the tale and how it begins anew.
Really it will be so wonderful if that's true, that means Amazon have enough braincells to create that interesting twist
I'm not good at theories and i don't know the lore well, but to me it seemed like halbrand/sauron, from the scene on the raft up until fighting along side galadriel, genuinely had lost faith in his evil cause and was going to settle for a new simple life some place else. That "light" he felt while fighting with her possibly rejuvenated him and made him believe in his original cause and thus going back to pursuing his plans for "saving" middle earth
That's probably what was the idea of those showrunners... It makes me wonder if actually they have ever wrote something worth reading...
Bro I love the channel but trying to draw coherent theories out of this mess is like trying to find faces in the clouds. Its time that could be spent more wisely on lore.
I think the reason why Sauron was on the Raft was he was trying to sneak into Valinor or just get there to hide among the elves for a time. He may have been searching for a way or a power that only Valinor could provide to middle earth since he was trying to prolong the decay of the world. But he settles for the elven smiths to make that power for him.
One of the things that irritated me in having Halbrand revealed as Sauron was his being on the raft. The Dark Lord was adrift in the Sundering Sea, seriously? For me there was no reason for him to be there. He had no idea that Galadriel would be there to rescue, so why was he there? Your take on it (his trying to get to Valinor) does solve that plot point, but as a shape shifter he surely could have flown there as a bird?
But there may be another answer - Tolkien never described the process of how the spirit of a Maia returned after a death-like experience. We know that (SPOLIERS) Sauron’s body perished when Numenor sank, and his spirit fled to Middle-Earth, but what that actual process was is a mystery, especially how he got another body. If in RoP Adar did “kill” Sauron’s body, then it would have had a similar journey. Perhaps the process is one of possession, that Sauron inhabits the body on an existing creature? If so, then he latched on to Halbrand, perhaps randomly, while Halbrand was on the ship in the Sundering Sea that later sank? That at least provides some measure of logic for his presence on a raft on the sea.
@@alexcanduci3824 Idk truly what Sauron was doing out there but one thing is hinted in the show. The ship and crew were hunting that beast based on the harpoons in its tail at the time. As to why, idk either, makes little sense at this time.
Maybe Halbrand was there for real before Sauron's spirit found his body and take him. Perhaps his spirit was trying to get to Valinor but winds kept him from there like a future white wizard. Maybe he thought he could use Halbrand to get into Valinor like Earendil did in the last age.
But I think the show was trying to betray Sauron at his lowest point before Galadriel found him and this does fit the plot a bit too. Who knows, its not entirely clear yet. What do you think?
Is the season 1 review taking that much of time to come out as you re trying to figure out how to share a honest feedback and at the same time not cutting off Amazon ;).
I think the showrunners are not clever enough to think of this, let's hope they are clever enough to read and listen to some of the theories of the book nerds to take some important hints
On the 16, I think they're already made. I think they were made as some of the experiments Sauron and Celebrimbor worked on together before the three were cast. My theory is we'll see their creation as a flashback early in season 2, maybe even as a prologue to episode 1.
Yep this. Agreed.
I was thinking that was the reason he wanted to stay in Numenor....maybe he even started on them there and was why he didn't want to leave. The first thing he was interested in was the forge there....I think he started work on them anew when he was helping Celebrimbor ( like you said)
And when did they make them? Halbrand stayed just a day or two in Eregion... Does Celebrimbor have a 3d printer in the forge??
@@Manlio.Cipullo We don't know the timeline of the show. If you watch the episode more carefully, though the show definitely implies the passing of more than just two days.
I think they are going to streamline the story of how the rings go from being created to arriving at men/dwarves and have Sauron create the remaining 16, along with the one, in modor.
This teory makes no sense. Why would Sauron been there in the first place? It is too far stretched... Also the moment between Adar and Halbrand is key to the final revelation... Also why taking the form of Halbrandeven when he returned to Mordor if he was impersonating him? But i do not care anymore, it was a terrible show for a fan, and a low quality show for anyone with a bit of knowledge of writing...
I love your theories. I disagree about one thing though. It would be amazing for the reveal of the the real Halbrand to be alive in Season 2! They might’ve fooled some people thinking the wizard was Sauron. They would fool most people with two Halbrands. Aside from the big reveal, it would a) allow casuals to know Sauron can shape shift (a new wrinkle for season 2) b) use a different actor for Sauron and c) build on the investments fans have already put into Halbrand.
I'll bet they adapt the story to have Sauron teach the Dwarves and Men to make the rings themselves. It would make it into a a type of arms race. E.g. he approaches the Dwarves of Moria who already mistrust the Elves, and tell them about a concerning new power they've created using mithril. Same with the smiths of Numenor, whom Sauron is already acquainted with, and who also mistrust the Elves.
Either that, or Sauron makes them himself and offers them in the same way to hedge against or compete with the Elves.
Smiling at children Sauoron is the last thing I have ever expected to see in this show🤮
i honestly think you are giving the writers waaay to much credit for their capabilities. season 1 was so ridiculously low in payoff and so full of fanservice that i really think the writers believe thats what lotr fans want to see. A shameless remake cashgrab in a different skin like star wars 7
I feel they’re scrapping the part where he helped the elves make the lesser rings it just seems disjointed for him to go back they may have him create them himself while he’s making the one ring.
My theory is that Halbrand actually has a lesser ring of power that Sauron would've been experimenting with which may have been able to let Sauron control/possess Halbrand. It would be a good way to still re-introduce Annatar and have him come to Eregion and tell the elves that he'd been sent by the Valar to help fight the revealed threat of Sauron and then convince them to make more rings for men and dwarfs to unite them against Sauron.
That would be awesome, but I guess that ship has sailed and a GREAT opportunity been missed, sadly! Was very much looking forward to Annatar...
I love it 🤟
It's a cool theory but the unfortunate truth is that the showrunners are not smart enough for this. I thought it might be cool to imagine that Sauron intentionally found Galadriel to press his advantage. But then the showrunners just came out and said it was a coincidence instread of leaving it to our imagination. It really is just a dumpster fire
That first fight he got in makes it really difficult for me to think he was human then. That was the moment I knew he was hiding powers
I don’t think they have the rights to the name Annatar. I think it’s important for critiques of the show, regarding its lack of fidelity to Tolkien’s works, to be filtered through the lens of what Amazon has the rights to adapt. You can’t blame them for not including something, or doing something different from what’s in the Silmarillion, if they don’t have the rights to the Silmarillion. Not saying fidelity to the source material is unimportant in the slightest. Just saying we need to be realistic about what source material they have available.
Once again, you are hoping the writers of this show are actually good writers, with deep motivations written into their characters, and great plot foreshadowing among other things. Not realistic. These writers work for pay, not quality.
Beforedor😝I’m (mostly) a stay at home momma and put your channel on when I’m in the kitchen etc, I’ve learned a lot and it’s been fun. Thank you😌
So what you're truly saying is that you reckon that the writers are even worse than previously feared. That would be even more dumb than the plot they went with, with Sauron
Great theory. They should have listened to you. Having the elves reject and hunt the real Halbran, having to go into exile, being given a ring from Sauron. Sauron making him into a Nazgul or the WitchKing. It would show how evil Sauron is. And it would make for an interesting plot to follow.
I can see the showrunners not wanting to waist the actor playing Halbrand and adding the Real Halbrand to the table and turning Sauron in an elf character "Annatar" for Season 2.
I don’t think they have the rights to use the name to
How can you not have the rights to use a name from a decades old book - especially when you are using aaall the others?
@@MrTaucher007 The rights are still owned by the family, also by Warner Brothers as well when they bought the rights to make their films. So if the name is not amongst the material they have bought then it can't be used.
Yeah they probably won’t be able to use Annatar because of the rights.
I'd have preferred he showed up in his fair form. We don't need to play mystery games as the audience. They should have been out and open with it all along so we could see how he was cunning and manipulative. So we could yell at our screens telling them not to trust him. But no. We got knock off Aragorn who did numerous things that made zero sense.
If this theory happens in season 2
It'll be great if they keep Charlie as Halbrand (since he confirmed that he'll be back for S2)
And bring another actor for Annatar
If they go back and explain how he ends up on a boat with those people it would answer some questions. Did Sauron have his eye on Galadriel and know she would bail out? Actually does seem farfetched vs this theory. But who knows, maybe he's been keeping tabs on her for a long time as shes been hunting him for a long time.
I think this theory has the potential to be great, it's just that the showrunners don't feel this deep to actually pull it off.
My theory for the remaining 16 rings is that he’s going to go to the dwarves to forge the 7 (the Lady Macbeth sounding ambitions of one Princess Disa will be his way into Khazad-dûm) and either do the same with the 9 OR forge them in Mordor and then distribute them before forging The Ring.
I think this theory is excellent and plays out in several cool ways,but im not going to give the writers THAT much credit,lol. I would like to see the back story of why Halbrand was on the raft to begin with and who were the people he was with that he cast aside so hastily.
He’s a true utilitarian.
This theory is complete balls. Very glad to hear you wouldn't give the writers THAT much credit for doing a dogsh*t theory.
@@greeneyedmonster1174 In fact only a baboon could give them credit at all...
@@Manlio.Cipullo aww poor baby... it's cute you support this dogshit theory, and call folks who disagree with you baboons
This theory gives way to much credit to the capabilities of the writers and showrunners of this show: and this is setting aside their complete disdain for the lore.
Nobody cares about not Annatar from this Not Lord of the Rings.
No, your theory don’t held, because the show was clear that the southern king line was broken more than 1000 years ago, and the last king had no heir
I agree Halbrand being the Witch King would have been cooler but I almost feel like that Theo could end up being the witch king.
Theo is the descendant of men who served Morgoth, we know this. He even had the same type of Blade which was the key as the witch king uses. The southlands refugees are headed north, which is where Angmar is. He could also have a falling out with Arondir, and an explanation for the Witch kings hatred of elves could be Arondir failing to protect his mother.
I think Theo will be a Nazgûl but I think Pharazon will be the witch king. There a quite few hints to this on rewatching. I thought Theo, Arondir et al were heading to the Anduin estuary? I might be wrong on this recollection though
I don't think it works because Sauron/halbrand recalls how he told her he found the royal sigil on a dead man back in numenor