Velomobiles Efficiency | Velomobile World
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- Опубликовано: 24 авг 2024
- 📹 Effizienz von Velomobilen | Velomobile World
📹 Efficacité des vélomobiles | Velomobile World
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✳️ This video is part of 2022 Holger Seidel Record Ride Series.
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👁️ See all the details about Holger Seidel Record Ride (2022), on the links below:
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Great video! Thank you. Finally somebody in just a few minutes explained me why rolling resistance is more important for velomobiles than for bikes, it's just a matter of proportions.
Glad it was helpful!
It's mostly a matter of weight
Those wattage to speed ratios are close to what I have achieved in my Milan SL - With race hood, latex tubes and Grand Prix LTD tires and mirrors removed I managed 177 watts for a sub-3 hour century avegrting 33.8mph or 54.4 Km/hr for 161 km. on a flat loop course. (4 laps) Pedal, breathing, nutrition and water also all play a role as well during speed attempts. The Milan is incredible
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Großartig erklärt und dargestellt. Besser kann man es wohl kaum machen.
We received this video from Mike and he did a great Job
Dieses Video führt mit seinen Zahlen eins deutlich vor Augen:
Angesichts dieser Werte erscheint es völlig aus der Zeit gefallen, dass wir uns noch von tonnenschweren Fahrzeugen bewegen lassen, die millionenfache Energieverschwender und Dreckschleudern sind. Wenn diese Autos nur 10mal leichter und nur so groß wären, wie sie auch ihre Passiere eigentlich nur brauchen, dann hätten wir weder ein PLatz- noch ein Umweltproblem damit. Technisch wäre das alles überhaupt kein Problem, aber damit kann man nicht angeben, repräsentieren, seine selbst nicht vorhandene Stärke demonstrieren u.s.w. und es ließe sich mit solchen Fahrzeugen sicher auch nicht soviel Geld verdienen. Dafür wäre ihr Ressourcenverbrauch aber auch um Größenordnungen geringer bei ihrer Herstellung und ihrem Betrieb. Wir würden also unseren Kindern noch etwas von den Schätzen der Erde übrig lassen anstatt alles auf einmal in wenigen Generationen zu vergeuden. Aber wer will das schon. Nach uns die Sintflut. Hauptsache das Bruttosozialprodukt steigt stetig.
We do our best to make light velomobiles
@@VelomobileWorld Many people complain about the high prices of the velomobiles. If it has not been for your great job, high competence and courage to produce these velomobiles for so many designers in Romania many less enthusiasts would be able to afford a velomobile. Thanks for the your dedication.
All well in theory, many of the roads here are horrendous, not fit for even doing 30 without breaking something. And this is Belgium. Not to mention the polite, patient and respecfull car drivers.
We have in Romania also not so great roads and drivers are also not so great and polite. But I do on cruising speeds 40 plus
Excellent explanation of the benefits of velomobiles vs cars when it comes to energy consumption. It should be noted that the tires are always a compromise between rolling resistance and puncture resistance. So you would get about twice the rolling resistance if using “puncture proof” tires instead of the tires preferred for fast velomobiles.
Something else we should think of is to stop using the dimensionless Cd, we should instead use CdA, the Cd multiplied with frontal area. Then comparison of air drag would be much easier.
Agree but that's would be enough for a other video rolling resistance/ puncture proof
Good video! Nice, clear and calm voice! You notice that there have been pros involved!!!!
I myself own a A7 and YES, velomobiles are a different "world"!
Thanks for sharing
If these were cheaper omg I’m 14 so can’t afford one but pulling up to school in this would be so cool
you can get also second hand once. I worked when I was 14 a lot and bought one second hand
One of the best videos I have seen in a long time.
a client from us spend "some" (many) time on it.
Very Well explained! Although your calculations are a bit too optimistic in my opinon:
1. You completly ignored drivetrain efficiency, which is a lot worse in velomobiles than in road bikes. In a Velomobile it is not uncommon to lose 10-20W due to drivetrain inefficienies, even at low speeds.
2. You treat the coefficient of drag as a constant value, even though it's not. Especially for low drag bodies, the cd is not constant. It may vary more than 20 % within the typical velomobile speed range, with higher speeds usually meaning lower cd. This means that the power numbers you calculated for lower speeds are too low. I personally also believe that the assumption of a cd of 0.08 is too optimistic, especially for a velomobile with holes for headlights and mirrors (as shown in the video). While I haven't heard of anyone ridging (avg) close to 40km/h at 100W in a velomobile on public roads, I myself (and many others) have ridden 40km/h on a road bike at lower than 300 W.
3. Your road bike power numbers can't be compared to your velomobile power numbers in everyday use.
You can't expect to average close to 50km/h @ 150 W in a velomobile in everyday use.
Power in a velomobile is highly dependent on road surface (rolling resistance is relatively high compared to road bikes) and number of accelerations.
This is because the energy to create the momentum is a lot bigger compared to a road bike (due to the higher speed).
There are even more aspects to this power discussion. All in all velomobiles are still clearly superior to road bikes in most scenarios! It's just not as easy as one might think from watching this video.
I agree with your analysis f5xx. Real world speeds are lower than those anticipated in the video. Holding 50 kmph on the flat is darned hard work! I have never got my DF to 70 other than on a good downhill section. Poor quality roads are common where I live in the UK. Big bumps, draggy chippings and tar surfaces etc. There is also loads of resistance in the drive train. I have some PTFE chain tubes to fit when I get time. Hopefully that will save a few watts. Interesting video though.
@@chrisperceval193 PTFE tubes add drag not remove it. I've found 50kph isn't that difficult to maintain on a flat road in my df (Also in the UK). Although not personally running a power meter. There are many riders who do use them in velomobiles and record rides at 40kph+ at around 100-120 w.
I do agree the figures are simplified though.
Producer here ;)
First of all, thanks for the praise.
Concerning the power values - they aren't optimistic. The Milan in the video is mine and I regularly hit those numbers on selected routes even without TT tyres. The curves fit my Milan quite well. Here is the telemetry of a 187 km ride with an average of 49 km/h @ 141 W (I weigh 80 kg): www.filmschmiede-schaumburg.de/youtube/200.jpg
Aerodynamics aren't covered exhaustively because you couldn't do that even in a six-hour video. The accuracy of those calculations (although incomplete, granted, ignoring drivetrain losses) seems to be pretty good, though. As said before, the model matches the real world performance of my Milan well (there are always measurement errors).
About your point of the values being not applicable to everyday use: how could they? No one's everyday use is uniform motion on a level surface. But how else can you compare?
@@filmschmiedeschaumburg6346 140 W is remarkably low for 49 km/h in my experience.
What I meant concerning everyday use was that riding a velomobile, different roads and slightly more stops can mean significantly lower average speeds while on road bike these factors don't matter as much because the energy required for rolling resistance and acceleration is small compared to the energy used to overcome aerodynamic drag.
I hope that makes it a little clearer...
It just underlines the significance of rolling resistance of velomobiles.
I welcome you to make a better video, which is nice to look at, understandable for 95% of the viewers and more accurate. Send it to us and we will publish it.
Excelent video. Well explained. Though I can't achieve that kind of efficiency with my Milan SL. Though we don't have very good quality roads around here, so it must be the high rolling resistance which is slowing me down.
on flat roads, high quality asphalt, right temperature
@Based Boi The forrest is doing that. The roads are there to provide the russian tanks a way to move in a convoy. Then we can use the "motti" tactics to cut their convoys in small pieces, cause terror and fear in the russian troops and destroy them one by one.
Thank you for not adding music to the video.
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Very interesting!
I think so too!
Wow. The physics explanation really makes this video stand out.
Thanks
Terrific video. I am amazed at some of the speeds I see on many YT vids of various velomobiles. I can manage 28km average on a 80km ride in a WAW. I guess I could do better if I had different tires but I have yet (10,000km) to fix a flat on our rough debris covered roads and that is worth a lot more than a bit more speed. Schwalbe Marathon Plus seem impervious to almost anything. Again, great informative video! 🇨🇦
It is an compromis which tires you choose, also here in Romania I don't drive the fastest tires. Because by us also the roads are not 100% clean
Actually that might be a wrong compromise if you look at it purely theoretically. When I had my Quest, I calculated that I could change a tube every two hours on the GoCycles and still be quicker than with the Marathon Plus, if you factor in the higher average speed.
I changed from Marathon to Continental Urban Contacts recently. My Mango has felt like a different velomobile. It got more than 4 km/h faster in average. I have changed to latex tubes now and the smaller Urban Contacts (32 instead of 40) and my little Mango got another 3 or so km/h faster. Tyres make a difference! You should try it out some time. I have had a single flat on the Urban Contacts, and that was entirely my own fault. I drove up a pavement in hight speed with flat tires under wet conditions in the dark). I am not much faster than you though, on only 70 km random road to my mother 32km/h is my best (average with all stops etc but 100m more downhill than up), but the Mango is not supposed to be fast at all.
Those numbers are much better than my quest. And so much more better than my alleweder A1 snr 5.
I remember going with a friend to yearly maintenance, he with his quest and me with my alleweder (alligt and velomobiel where neighbours then). Due to some reasons I couldn't get the alleweder past 25km/h at about 50km distance, and I was almost crying. Then my friend offered me a ride in his quest and I was happily going over 40, until we swapped back (my muscles could push more).
This was a temporary problem and that's why it needed to go to Alligt for checkup.
But to be clear: that alleweder was way faster than my alligt modern which felt way faster than any bend rider.
And with faster I of course mean: the resistance was low enough that I could increase my speed a bit for extended distances, like 700km in a weekend. Even mountains were more easy despite the 20kg extra, but that was because I could also slow bike with a trike.
But I remember together with my friend that we were always lubing and trying to keep the rolling resistance as low as possible. On the quest I've tried so many tires.
But still 67km/h was my max in the quest, and that was definitely a 1kW burst. (Since I stopped biking I try to do HIT bursts at the gym and that thing tells me I did 1kW for a few seconds, and when I did the 67km/h I was definitely trained)
While wim schermer optimized his quest and he did more than 60km/h average at an hour trial at an age of 65?
But nice video! Finally some great comparisons.
thanks
I liked this video, but it would have been nice to see the rolling resistance *added* to the wind resistance on the chart, to better visualize a more complete comparison of efficiency between the Milan and the road bike.
It is. The continuous lines are total resistance.
@@filmschmiedeschaumburg6346 Oh, I'm sorry, I assumed the solid lines were wind resistance. I didn't pay attention to the legend on the right, I was so interested in the graph itself!
cannot do everything perfect
Awesome presentation, just wish it went longer. Informative and enjoyable..
Glad you enjoyed it!
@@VelomobileWorld Since my first comment I've purchased my first recumbent...I just had to see what all the fuss was about. It's quite different and will take some adjusting to, but so much fun...and fast. I'd love to try out a Velomobile to experience the difference.
Finally a video I can show around when I get asked 'why?!?!'.
I am happy to hear
Parabéns pela excelente resumida e objetiva explanação!
?? English would work better ;-)
Very interesting video.
Glad you enjoyed it
And a velomobile keeps the rain off
indeed
This has me thinking about a combination of the Velocycle and an E-Bike
yes that would be a efficient car.
@@VelomobileWorld Depending on how you think of a "HUMAN POWER" in terms of watts - and I think it's considered 1/10th of a horsepower, HP being considered 750 watts, if I put a 75 watt electric motor on a bike - it should in theory replace "ME", but it also has to carry the weight of the extra equipment load, so then after maybe 150 watts, all else is additional power added... Frightening speeds are possible
geweldig : de intro reklame is van ... wij kopen auto's ;)
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WOW!! Great video - very informative !
Glad you liked it!
Now what if you would add golf ball dimples to the body of the velomobile?
no idea, but you can try!
How many watts can one achieve in a recumbent? Is the difference big compared to an upright one?
That depends a lot of the driver him/here self. We know people who can put out 800 wat in peak
@@VelomobileWorld That's very impressive! Maybe there's no need to continue working on my new recumbent pedaling device..
@@bui340 Improvements are always welcomed!
视频做的不错 我在b站翻译发布了 国内躺车相关视频太少了 感谢作者分享
Hi Han, youre welcome
very interesting video, its dont adress weight and how gaining of speed can make driving bit hard.
Also for normal cyclist watt outputt is bit esoteric since wattmetters are bit outside of normal measuring.
How much wider would have to be velo if its designed around 26" front wheels?
We made in the past one time a 26" front wheels and the velo was signaficant slower and the wheel broke nonstop because of the side force.
For a complete picture, one needs an analysis of climbing speeds for a bike vs a velo.
Yes I gree
Sehr gut!
danke
how do recumbents with an aerodynamic rear storage box compare to this? seems like the best of both worlds to me. not as sweaty, 2 wheels only so it can lean into the corners (fun), and probably still much-much faster than a lycra wearing roadie
Price it is better a recumbent with a storage box, Weather protection a velomobile is better, visability is a velomobile better, speed a velomobile is better, maintaince is a velomobile better
They indeed are a different world as long as the road is even, or goes slightly downhill. But what about roads in f.i. upper bavaria, where you have many narrow roads and quite steep hills to climb. You have to gain all the power out of your upper legs and can't use your body weight for peddaling. I have a recumbent bike and going straight is a blast, whereas climping uphill for longer distances is brutal.
Hi Bernd, on the straight you have the benefits of velomobile/recumbent, on the uphill you loose you advantages and you have to admit that you ability as powerful driver are not that great (sorry to say but we think as recumbent drivers when we pass everybody on the straight that we are strong riders). Uphill you have the benefits with a velomobile/ recumbent of you can push your self in the seat which is way bigger as what you have if you standing on your pedals. But I have to admit it feels more dynamic standing on your pedals.
Thank you, verry well explained. Now I know, why Schwalbe Marathon Plus on a WAW are not the greatest choice. ;-)
Hi Roland Schwalbe Marathon plus is a great tire if you don't want to have flat tires. It is not so great choice if you want to drive fast because the rolling resistance is very high
Could you do a video about hills and their effect on a velomobile
I would love to but find no time for it. Maybe a client who like to make it
Considering the rolling resistance being that important, could you please explain the setup of the Milan shown here?
What are the best tires that are available atm? And how important is tubeless?
It's a Milan SL Mk 4 from Velomobile World with a Battle-Mountain Hood. It is not lowered or anything but has superb wheel alignment and is squeaky clean. I'm using an aerodynamic mirror but I haven't noticed any advantages. It looks faster, though ;) At the time of recording I had Schwalbe Pro One TT mounted in the front and a Continental GP 5000 in the rear, all tubeless.
The advantage the TT tyres should have given me has been totally destroyed by the GoPro I mounted. I needed at least 50 W more at 70 km/h. That's why the power numbers are so high in the video. Without the camera they would have been between 280W and 300W.
Tubeless tyres seem to have the least rolling resistance and that's why I use them. But of course you have to take your use cases into account. I'm lucky that my use allows the most delicate tyres so that my power values are even lower than the ones given in this video. www.bicyclerollingresistance.com for example has nice overviews of how fast which tyres are (at least relative to each other).
that's a long topic tires. Maybe a client have done some research about it.
There is some discrepancy within the video:
ruclips.net/video/gKsGS1zcNsM/видео.html there it says 93W @ 60km/h.
ruclips.net/video/gKsGS1zcNsM/видео.html there one can read ~230W @ 60km/h.
Update: The latter (the graph) is **total power needed** (not only for air resistance, but also rolling resistance).
ruclips.net/video/gKsGS1zcNsM/видео.html there one can see the part of that rolling resistance, so that explains it (there is no discrepancy).
Hi Thomas, thanks for the feedback.
Naja , die Werte mögen auf ner idealen Straße stimmen, aber auf realen Straßen ist der Rowi doch was höher.
Love story's are also better in a movie as in real life
Interesting and well explained.
But you forget one big point: the world is mostly not flat! I'll have an elevation of about 500 to 1500m for every 100km around and into my city. And that's the deciding criteria to not use my velomobile more than a few time a year...
it is an hypothese
Sounds like you need to install a 500w e-bike motor in the rear hub
If it could go 100kmh I would consider it for going to work (which is about an hour from where I live) - assuming it could be electrified. But for going to the store to buy groceries, I'm afraid someone would steal it off the parking lot. It would also need a lot more visibility to go on a highway - such as very high visibility strobe lights - otherwise cars don't notice and you lose your life in an accident. As it is, the applications are too limitted for everyday commuting.
It is and remain a bicycle. If you want to travel 100 km/h buy a electric car.
Buy a motorcycle.
What would help the credibility of the video would be how the drag coefficient of 0.08 was determined.
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Over a decade ago Räderwerk tested the Milan (SL) in the Volkswagen wind tunnel (www.mission-milan.de/news.htm ), did iterative calculations based on power meter data and averaged the results (www.mission-milan.de/sl_techdat.htm ). I even rounded their Cd of 0.076 to 0.08 in the video. And I'm sure it didn't get worse with the Battle-Mountain Hood.
90 km/h rolling at -2% grade !
If you pedal still yes
Jan I am wondering why you are not returning my phone calls ? Can you explain to your viewers what is happening to me and my velomobile?
I don't know a client who is called mydaddycat and I have also no missed phone calls. you can email/whatsap/telegram me on +40758864940 or on sales@velomobileworld.com
I want one, but I cannot afford it :-/
maybe a second hand one?
Werden velomobile staatlich finanziell gefördert?
Förderungen aufs Fahrrad was ein Traum 😅😅
Für Privatpersonen leider nicht, aber Rad-Leasing über den Arbeitgeber ist eine Möglichkeit.
Of course ;-)
@@VelomobileWorld How exactly in Germany? Now, if you buy an electric scooter (45 km/h), that costs about 1500,-- Euro, you get every year until 2030 450,-- Euro THG-Prämie payed from the state of Germany. Do you get this also for velomobiles or would you have to install an electric Motor, that Propeller you up to 45 km/h.
Very interesting! (in contrast to my comment)
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ein Audi A2 😀
nice car
It's the price that makes it unaffordable, if you made one for 2000 pounds it would be fine
it's not because materials alone are already more expensive
0:40 not 4,5-times bigger front-area, but 5,5-times bigger... I hope, you are otherwise stronger in arithmetics...
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The theory and the formulas are correct and nicely explained. The cd value (0,08 ) for Milan SL however is not realistic at all.. If it was true the Milan Sl could win all the races with a weak driver (just do the calculations) .
This is not happening however, and people need much more power to ride fast. Please stop using this value and make it more realistic.
This value is calculated from wind-tunnel results, but experts know this value is not what you have in real life on the road.
We have done many test on public roads with Watt meters, Values can vary a lot with weather conditions and road surface. With many test you can calculate a real life Cd value for a velomobile. These values are more in the region of 0,2.
About being "realistic" - Just take 100 velomobile riders and you'll have 100 different realities. No matter how "realistic" you try to be, there will always be a heavier dude with steeper inclines, more traffic lights, cobblestones everywhere and Marathon tyres. So you define a reality and compare within that. The video's reality was uniform motion with a standard but well adjusted Milan SL on a fairly good road using Pro One tyres. And people do know that riding uphill or accelerating is harder or that racing has nothing to do with uniform motion on level ground.
My reality is actually better than that in the video. Sometimes even my _averages_ are better. Just last sunday I did a 210 km ride on public roads with an average of 51.9 km/h @ 152 W (www.filmschmiede-schaumburg.de/youtube/210.jpg ), using the same Milan I commute to work with (I weigh 80 kg). A couple of months ago I took a leisurely drive to the Dutch border and back. 353 km with an average of 41.1 km/h @ 118 W (www.filmschmiede-schaumburg.de/youtube/Netherlands.jpg ).
And about the "unrealistic" Cd value - that Cd value quickly gets negative when wind hits you from the right directions, which means actual propulsion by sail effect. People quickly say a Cd of 0.08 is too low when "in reality" it is quite often far too high. "Reality" is complex ;)
When you want to make a good video what would be more right, please send me the video and I will upload it in order people can have a better understanding.
Dude just accept that road bikes are slower.
Natürlich sind solche Werte möglich. Mein Alpha W9 hat noch bessere Werte als der Milan Sl. Der Antrieb ist auch nochmals deutlich effizienter.
Wenn man so etwas bestätigt haben möchte, kann man es bei uns vergleichen, bzw meinen auch fahren
Daniel Fenn
I have done my own coasting tests with my Milan SL Mk2 on an ordinary normal street (Asemantie here in Nummela Finland, pls check that in Google Maps) . The tests reveal that the rolling resistance was 0,0053 (with Continental Grand Prix tires) and more interestingly that the CdA was 0,056 m2. Knowing that the cross section area of Milan SL is 0,41 m2 we get the value for Cd 0,136. It is bigger than the mentioned 0,08, but I had a non aerodynamic mirror and only a standard hood. (Please note that here in Finland we use decimal comma and not point - the same as the Germans do...)
Anyhow I am/was able to beat usual roadies on roads even I am not a strong cyclist and I was 60 years old that time. Well, now I'm older...
Also consider that car has in average 1.5 passengers, so it is slightly better per passenger than per all passengers. But still cars suck :)
Well.. I think you got the point
：００
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Trouble though is that the world is not flat. Downhill, a velomobile is too fast. Uphill, very, very, very slow.
Did you try? The world is mostly flat. if you zoom out.;-)
Bicyle also, uphill very slow.
Please explain the phrase "too fast." As for uphill and slow, yes, you're carrying more weight uphill, but you can push against the seat for plenty of power, and no matter how slow you go, you never fall down. A Velomobile can just keep grinding away, no matter the incline. Also, for smaller hills, a velo can get up enough speed on the flats to get uphill without breaking a sweat.
Das kann man so pauschal nicht sagen. Bei reinen Steigungen sind die besten Vms seit kurzem etwa 2-3% langsamer als ein Rennrad, natürlich Gewichtsbereinigt. Ich selber halte praktisch alles Koms bei Steigungen bis 30hm
what junk
Could you be more precious?