I’m only 13 minutes in and it’s confirmed that Mr. Pawson was the GOAT! He probably wouldn’t want me calling him that if he were still here but had a way of explaining things and connecting dots that was very special. Even his voice was meant to do what God called him to do ♥️
Thank you for De-Greecing!!!! Life is wholistic. Praise God . There is more to the prophecies in the Bible that we need to seek the Lord to reveal to us.
I'm so thankful that this teaching is still available 20 years after David delivered it. What a valuable resource. I had no idea of the Greek influence on what Christians believe up to this day and it explains so much. Such important teaching. Thank you. I'm hoping I can find the videos David talked about where he visited the sites of the seven churches of Revelation.
This is skewed thinking and false. The Greeks and Roman's split in Catholicism and Orthodox religions in 1054. Anything after that is completely at the foot of the Vatican and the pope.
Thank God for David Pawson. This explains a lot, clarifying a number of issues that trouble the way we think about God, the church and about ourselves. More importantly, it helps clarify the way God thinks about us and how we matter to Him as whole people. Three cheers to hear the de-bunking of the sacred/ secular myth and that God prefers a good taxi driver to a bad missionary! Hope David’s profoundly sensible words will encourage and bring revelation to many.
Not sure if you're referring to the speed of his talking but if you find it a little slow you can listen to it at x1.25 speed, and it's very agreeable.
And the logos, the thought, the plan, was with God, in His mind, in His thoughts....and the logos, the thought, the plan, was made flesh, made tangible, made visible, and dwelt among us.
Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
The problem with Augustine is that although he was influenced by Greek thinking he couldn't read Greek. So although he initially believed what his Christian mentors taught him, as he progressed up the church hierarchy, when he decided (for whatever reason) to develop his own new theology he wasn't familiar with or read what the earlier church fathers had written. The idea that he returned the church to original truths that the Fathers had drifted away from is totally spurious.
I really enjoy Mr. Pawson's teaching, but this one is a miss for me. Regardless, I'm thankful to have listened to it for another perspective. Rest well, Mr. Pawson, and thank you for your dedication to the Lord. Also, if someone finds evidence to corroborate the information given about the '12 Days of Christmas' song and its meaning, please let me know.
I've been blessed with this study and really appreciate the work of pastor Pawson, but still I've got some doubts about what he said. 1) Paul also believe in the separation between flesh and spirit (Rom7:23) 2)Augustine pointed out the impossibility for us to accomplish the law of God, and his teachings were revolutionary for the ancient world as he studied the scriptures with an exegetical method. He never manipulated the scriptures but instead, he taught the scriptures just as it was. This is why, most of the reformers look back to his teachings.
Thank you , Alejandro, for your comment. We had the same thought regarding Paul and were confused about what Pawson says between minute 23 and 28. However, in Rom 7:23 Paul is rather talking about "members" vs. "mind" (KJV, NRSV), in V18 "flesh", and in V14 "spiritual" vs. "carnal", whereas David Pawson in this speech is talking about "body" and soul". These categories are probably not equivalent. If Pawson was still alive he would possibly explain us the difference he had in mind. My wife thinks, "carnal" in Paul's sense might rather refer to the focus of our heart on earthly things, not to what components our human being consists of (e.g body, soul and spirit). Maybe we must not equal biblical "flesh" and biblical "body". So, would Pawson say that for instance Andrew Wommak's attempt to explain body, soul and spirit is somehow wrong, influenced by Greek thinking and not biblical (not Hebrew)? At least, Pawson seems to be right pointing out that "natural/supernatural" is not a pair of categories in the bible, but "natural/spiritual" is (1Cor 15:44), also "natural/unnatural" (Rom 1:26). This is yet another talk of David Pawson that really makes us think and leads us back to scripture - and maybe shake off some ballast of questionable secondary literature...
I agree - the Bible does not speak for itself and we need to bring to its understanding all the best intellectual tools available. And these wil of be Greek and Greek thinkers. By Greek Pawson seems to mean Platonic, but there is much more to Greek philosophy - in particular Aristotle who did not separate mind and body in the way that Plato did. No New Testament writer took the trouble to denounce Greek (or perhaps Platonic) philosophy. Further the logos in St John’s gospel is a thoroughly Greek concept. Perhaps it is interesting to think that Jesus knew Greek. There is no mention of translators in the accounts of his trial. Still David Pawson was a great man and a great Christian.
Augustine started out good but in the end baptized babies for salvation. Augustine is where we got predestination in calvinism which teaches that the Father makes people on purpose for Hell. God is love and desires that all would come to knowledge of forgiveness 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9. God has no partiality with people Romans 2:11
I agree with David on many things but the Bible does say that death is gain. Yes, death is an enemy that God has and will conquer but for Christians death is gain. It is remaining in the body that is suffering “Christ” but death is a release to our Lord “21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, 26so that through my being with you again your boasting in Christ Jesus will abound on account of me.”
I wholeheartedly agree! I have an appointment with death and Jesus has taken its sting away. I gladly put off the corruptible so that I can put on incorruption; lay down mortality so that I can put on immortality. There is gladness in the heart of those who long to be present with the Lord. If death was ever my enemy, it is now defeated by my Savior and is only a door for me now.
@@DavidPawsonMinistry Many thanks for your quick reply. I have great affection and respect for David’s work. I’m getting much from listening to this again after sometime, and this particular truth/teaching is (I believe) becoming more and more important for those of us who understand we are “wild branches grafted in.” 🙏
David taught from NIV 1984 I say this because the publishers of NIV started to 'depersonalise it ' changing ......Man - to Mankind etc but after many complaints, it was reversed, so if you cannot get a 1984 version get a post 2011which is also good David started using the KJV but whatever anyone says this version version is most accurate - you need to understanding be an expert on old English as the meaning of words as used in Middle Ages has changed - eg 'prevent' - does not mean to stop - it means 'pre -event' which means to anticipate ....peculiar today means odd - in Middle Ages it meant special eg "Gods Peculiar people"............ - set apart for him! Cattle today means cows - then it meant any movable property eg all animals David recommends NIV
This is an interesting question - David did a series called The Letters of Jesus to the 7 Churches - which you will find on Davids RUclips Channel, (Look up Letters of Jesus) As part of this series one video was produced where David takes a tour of the 7 Churches but for some reason it was lost or forgotten. The good news is that we recently found a copy and we are currently remastering the video (as its in an old format). It will be uploaded to RUclips I estimate within next 4-6 weeks
@@DavidPawsonMinistry Thank you however…. I just purchased the DVD’s of this from your own site….plus donation. This would have been helpful to know beforehand and begs the question; what copies will I receive, remastered or otherwise !!
@@whitestone4805 HI The series was remastered a few years ago so you will receive ether very best quality DVD's - - its the one video where David is on location that appears to have been lost over the years but one old tape resurfaced recently which we are currently remastering If you would please email Rachel in the office and we will send you this one DVD when we have it - will I find your order under the name 'White stone'?
The word used to describe Logos, the word of God as "Demiurge" literally means creation in the Greek Language. Δημιουργια. It doesnt mean - the inbetween
Is trinity concept is a greek pattern of thought rather than hebrew?.... In hebrew idea is only possible for the concept of two power in heaven,..(daniel boyarin),...but three?..🤔
Hi No the Trinity is not Greek thinking - the Greeks could not accept "Jesus was fully GOD - Deity and also fully Human - God Incarnate" ...so the Greeks started to teaching Jesus was half and half - David Teaches Johns Gospel was written very simply to address this wrong teaching - the message of Johns Gospel is " to carry on believing that Jesus is fully human and also Fully GOD - It is Johns Gospel that teaches us - Jesus was with GOD and was GOD - Jesus was not created when he was born of Mary. Jesus was there, with his Father at he very beginning of creation - that is the very start of Johns Gospel - When God chose to make his dwelling amongst us - we have God : a Father in Heaven with Jesus fully Human on Earth - Yet Jesus was with GOD and was God at the very beginning - its not possible to understand this - but it is what John teaches that Jesus is the human form of God who made his dwelling amount us - the Holy Spirit is then the 3rd person but "they" are all one GOD Genesis : Let "us" (plural) make(singular form of the verb 'to do' ) man in our image In the beginning God (plural - Elohim) created (singular) the Heavens and the Earth To Jews it's easy - there is but one GOD .... HE is not "GOD the Father " You will not find the term God teh Father until after Jesus birth - to a Jew there is but one GOD ...in the Old Treatment .HE is the "Father of Isreal"..... but the Old Testament does not us the title "GOD the Father"
@@DavidPawsonMinistry .. The greek notion of half and half become full and full isn't in basic the same??...🤔... It is not also to say how can we proof about it right?... Both are just abstract metaphysical, ..and in Principe not hebrew...(?)..🤔
@@budyharianto8229 half and apple and half a pear do not make a whole …..even in Greek You cannot be half man and half horse you are either half a man or half a horse and never both You are correct it’s not Hebrew thinking , Hebrew teaching is simple but it’s all pre “Christ - choosing to make his dwelling amongst us “. The Hebrew thinking is simple - one God and his name is YHWH and that does not change when we get to the New Testament - God is not three - he is still one Yet He chose to make his dwelling on earth and came in the form of a Man - Jesus - to fulfill Hebrew prophecy Whilst Jesus was there at the beginning He was not a human ….. until he was born through Mary In my opinion it is metaphysical ie outside of human perception The challenge is to accept what the Bible says and not to have to make it fit with human comprehension - that’s where the concept of The Trinity fails- because it’s not 3 independent entities - it is 3 personas but not 3 Gods - ‘they’ are One I like the Hebrew teaching One God yet he is plural - El ….God - Elohim …. Plural form of El In the beginning God( plural ) created ( singular) Let ‘us’ make man in ‘our’ image …….. the plurality of one …. It’s amazing !
@@DavidPawsonAudio-Official is the pre existing christ already there in the first 150 years of the church theology, or is just a human development ?.. iam sure that Jesus and the 12 apostles are not trinitarian in their life time right?.. Such way of thought only possible, when roman power elites have their hand in church politics at that time ?...so called Theodosius 1 (with military back up) ...🤔
@@budyharianto8229 Its clear you do not wish to accept the evidence and blame the Church of Rome for the teaching of the Trinity but n answers to your question - Yes the preexistence of Christ was very much there in the first 150 years of the Church before the formation of the Church in Rome The existence of the Trinity comes from the teaching of Jesus and his Disciples . The Roman Catholic Church has a lot to answer for in terms of its wrong teaching .....but so also does other denominations Put aside the word Trinity for one moment After Christs death and specifically after Pentecost christianity grew rapidly, and covered the whole of the know earth in as little as a few hundred years. A true miracle, but the early church faced many challenges: - - battles from within: with no Bible schools , no New Testament to quote, just word and mouth, mis information and false teaching was rife. Johns Gospel was written to correct this wrong teaching. Does Johns Gospel, written by a Disciple of Jesus, not state - that Jesus was there at the very beginning? The challenges christians faced were - battles from other religions and specifically Judaism who crucified christians - battles from a world that hates God.....and as Jesus said the world will hate you because it hated him first After many years of research David recorded a series on Church History which is available on RUclips ruclips.net/video/uV81WiYQ2bs/видео.html The History from AD30 to today..... I recommend it to you or alternatively you can read the book online for free via www.davidpawson.co.uk Was Jesus great commandment in Matthew 28 - go and make disciples of all nations baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit ?.... Three names - three individuals with authority .......... the term "in the name of " carries authority ..... Why did Jesus not say "baptise in the name of God" or in the name of "God the Father" ? Did Jesus not say -" I and the Father are one? .......? Did Jesus not say in John 14 :16 he would ask the Father to send an advocate - the Spirit of Truth ....who Jesus refers to as "The world cannot accept 'him' who ....a person? I am quoting scripture not the Roman Catholic Church It is the very teaching of Jesus and the words and practices of his Disciples that give us the plurality of God, and the existence of a Father, a Son and an advocate the Spirit of Truth ........a plurality, which goes back to pre Jesus existence on earth where even the Hebrew Jews acknowledge the plurality of God - by referring to Him as - Elohim - plural of El, Eloah - plural ....... Elohim more than 2, with words ending in "i'm" indicate 'masculine' There is a book called "Christ in all the scriptures" by A W Hodgkins should you wish to review the evidence for the existence of Jesus before he chose to make his dwelling amongst us - it gives evidence through every book of the Old Testament
Yes and wasn't he a disaster for Israel. Others had that idea at times, eg Jeremiah wishing he had never been born. We don't know what his final verdict was! Shalom Shalom.
Many would not agree with you. I personally checked I'm out on may occasions and he proved to be right May I ask a question in judging him - are your views based on study at a theological college or are your views based on what others tell you ?
What he is saying agrees with the earliest church fathers in the first 2 centuries before Augustine. Some of these men were mentored by the apostles or one generation later. It is we who are confused.
I can't believe how blessed I am to have stumbled upon this great man's videos. As we go to part 2
Me too in 2022. I bless God for him
@@paulinekarani7098 me in 2023!! God's word is eternal.
Couldn’t have said it better!! Absolutely blessed by this!
Amen indeed 🙏
This is an eye opener. Glory be to God!
It would be good if every Christian could listen to this a few times.
Thank GOD for this brilliant put together,never heard it in 25+years of being a believer of CHRIST.
How God is so good to empower David Pawson and thankful for David's obedience to Christ.
Thanks for uploading this!! What a wonderful man of God is David!!
I’m only 13 minutes in and it’s confirmed that Mr. Pawson was the GOAT! He probably wouldn’t want me calling him that if he were still here but had a way of explaining things and connecting dots that was very special. Even his voice was meant to do what God called him to do ♥️
Him and Derek Prince.
@@RV77JON4H YES!! Derek Prince and David Wilkerson.
Thank you for De-Greecing!!!! Life is wholistic. Praise God . There is more to the prophecies in the Bible that we need to seek the Lord to reveal to us.
I'm so thankful that this teaching is still available 20 years after David delivered it. What a valuable resource. I had no idea of the Greek influence on what Christians believe up to this day and it explains so much. Such important teaching. Thank you. I'm hoping I can find the videos David talked about where he visited the sites of the seven churches of Revelation.
This is skewed thinking and false. The Greeks and Roman's split in Catholicism and Orthodox religions in 1054. Anything after that is completely at the foot of the Vatican and the pope.
Excellent, accurate, detailed and important information, as always. RIP David Pawson.
@@nikatnite2024 which point is skewed? Pls reference
I found mr pawson teaching eye opening and I thank God for the wonderful grace gave to his servant.
Thank God for David Pawson. This explains a lot, clarifying a number of issues that trouble the way we think about God, the church and about ourselves. More importantly, it helps clarify the way God thinks about us and how we matter to Him as whole people. Three cheers to hear the de-bunking of the sacred/ secular myth and that God prefers a good taxi driver to a bad missionary! Hope David’s profoundly sensible words will encourage and bring revelation to many.
Just started hearing bro.pawson awesome and amazing teacher 🙏
Amen, that is very trou. God bless this wounderful minister of The Lord Jesus. Lev from Sweden.
Listening to this talk brought to mind the Book of Job and the contrasting of belief in God and the moral actions of people.
Superb teaching, thank you to DP ministries for uploading.
Awesome Teaching!! Can not wait for Part Two
just marvelous as always
David has masterfully connected many dots here.
Such an amazing bible teacher!!!!!
Thank you for TRUTH
His speech is always fascinating if you have the patience to listen.
Not sure if you're referring to the speed of his talking but if you find it a little slow you can listen to it at x1.25 speed, and it's very agreeable.
And the logos, the thought, the plan, was with God, in His mind, in His thoughts....and the logos, the thought, the plan, was made flesh, made tangible, made visible, and dwelt among us.
Joel 2:28
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
All glory to God.
Brilliant as usual. Though dead yet speaking life to a dying world!
How can I get the video he spoke about please?
HI - Not sure which video you refer to - if you please give me the time reference in this talk to the video and I will try to locate locate it for you
@@DavidPawsonMinistry videos of letters Jesus wrote to the churches...(he spoke extensively about pergamum and the 7 churches)
@@olugbengaolajide www.davidpawson.org/resources/series/the-letters-of-jesus-to-his-churches
or
ruclips.net/video/wv9otGYxFjc/видео.html
@@DavidPawsonMinistry thank you.
Amazing
The problem with Augustine is that although he was influenced by Greek thinking he couldn't read Greek. So although he initially believed what his Christian mentors taught him, as he progressed up the church hierarchy, when he decided (for whatever reason) to develop his own new theology he wasn't familiar with or read what the earlier church fathers had written. The idea that he returned the church to original truths that the Fathers had drifted away from is totally spurious.
Amen.
I really enjoy Mr. Pawson's teaching, but this one is a miss for me. Regardless, I'm thankful to have listened to it for another perspective. Rest well, Mr. Pawson, and thank you for your dedication to the Lord.
Also, if someone finds evidence to corroborate the information given about the '12 Days of Christmas' song and its meaning, please let me know.
Which Bible translation did David favour? If any. Thanks
I've been blessed with this study and really appreciate the work of pastor Pawson, but still I've got some doubts about what he said.
1) Paul also believe in the separation between flesh and spirit (Rom7:23)
2)Augustine pointed out the impossibility for us to accomplish the law of God, and his teachings were revolutionary for the ancient world as he studied the scriptures with an exegetical method. He never manipulated the scriptures but instead, he taught the scriptures just as it was. This is why, most of the reformers look back to his teachings.
Thank you , Alejandro, for your comment. We had the same thought regarding Paul and were confused about what Pawson says between minute 23 and 28.
However, in Rom 7:23 Paul is rather talking about "members" vs. "mind" (KJV, NRSV), in V18 "flesh", and in V14 "spiritual" vs. "carnal", whereas David Pawson in this speech is talking about "body" and soul".
These categories are probably not equivalent. If Pawson was still alive he would possibly explain us the difference he had in mind.
My wife thinks, "carnal" in Paul's sense might rather refer to the focus of our heart on earthly things, not to what components our human being consists of (e.g body, soul and spirit). Maybe we must not equal biblical "flesh" and biblical "body".
So, would Pawson say that for instance Andrew Wommak's attempt to explain body, soul and spirit is somehow wrong, influenced by Greek thinking and not biblical (not Hebrew)?
At least, Pawson seems to be right pointing out that "natural/supernatural" is not a pair of categories in the bible, but "natural/spiritual" is (1Cor 15:44), also "natural/unnatural" (Rom 1:26).
This is yet another talk of David Pawson that really makes us think and leads us back to scripture - and maybe shake off some ballast of questionable secondary literature...
I agree - the Bible does not speak for itself and we need to bring to its understanding all the best intellectual tools available. And these wil of be Greek and Greek thinkers. By Greek Pawson seems to mean Platonic, but there is much more to Greek philosophy - in particular Aristotle who did not separate mind and body in the way that Plato did. No New Testament writer took the trouble to denounce Greek (or perhaps Platonic) philosophy. Further the logos in St John’s gospel is a thoroughly Greek concept. Perhaps it is interesting to think that Jesus knew Greek. There is no mention of translators in the accounts of his trial. Still David Pawson was a great man and a great Christian.
Augustine started out good but in the end baptized babies for salvation. Augustine is where we got predestination in calvinism which teaches that the Father makes people on purpose for Hell. God is love and desires that all would come to knowledge of forgiveness 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9. God has no partiality with people Romans 2:11
I agree with David on many things but the Bible does say that death is gain. Yes, death is an enemy that God has and will conquer but for Christians death is gain. It is remaining in the body that is suffering “Christ” but death is a release to our Lord “21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, 26so that through my being with you again your boasting in Christ Jesus will abound on account of me.”
I wholeheartedly agree! I have an appointment with death and Jesus has taken its sting away. I gladly put off the corruptible so that I can put on incorruption; lay down mortality so that I can put on immortality. There is gladness in the heart of those who long to be present with the Lord. If death was ever my enemy, it is now defeated by my Savior and is only a door for me now.
Wow! A scholarship your de Force.
Is this on you tube as video not just sound as I learn better when watching the speaker.
Hi we are so sorry but there were no video cameras at the event when David spoke this message only an audio recorder.
@@DavidPawsonMinistry
Many thanks for your quick reply.
I have great affection and respect for David’s work.
I’m getting much from listening to this again after sometime, and this particular truth/teaching is (I believe) becoming more and more important for those of us who understand we are “wild branches grafted in.”
🙏
David taught from NIV 1984 I say this because the publishers of NIV started to 'depersonalise it ' changing ......Man - to Mankind etc but after many complaints, it was reversed, so if you cannot get a 1984 version get a post 2011which is also good
David started using the KJV but whatever anyone says this version version is most accurate - you need to understanding be an expert on old English as the meaning of words as used in Middle Ages has changed
- eg 'prevent' - does not mean to stop - it means 'pre -event' which means to anticipate
....peculiar today means odd - in Middle Ages it meant special eg "Gods Peculiar people"............ - set apart for him!
Cattle today means cows - then it meant any movable property eg all animals
David recommends NIV
Is the video he mentions (David visiting the sites of the 7 churches) available on you-tube or elsewhere?
This is an interesting question - David did a series called The Letters of Jesus to the 7 Churches - which you will find on Davids RUclips Channel, (Look up Letters of Jesus)
As part of this series one video was produced where David takes a tour of the 7 Churches but for some reason it was lost or forgotten. The good news is that we recently found a copy and we are currently remastering the video (as its in an old format). It will be uploaded to RUclips I estimate within next 4-6 weeks
@@DavidPawsonMinistry
Thank you however….
I just purchased the DVD’s of this from your own site….plus donation.
This would have been helpful to know beforehand and begs the question; what copies will I receive, remastered or otherwise !!
@@whitestone4805 HI The series was remastered a few years ago so you will receive ether very best quality DVD's -
- its the one video where David is on location that appears to have been lost over the years but one old tape resurfaced recently which we are currently remastering If you would please email Rachel in the office and we will send you this one DVD when we have it - will I find your order under the name 'White stone'?
@@DavidPawsonMinistry No. Not wanting to give a name out here but ref:
326216856899302
Thank you…will look forward to hearing from you.
@@whitestone4805 HI. If this is the order reference then I will ask Rachel to locate the order and in due course we will send you the DVD
how is one to be saved with all the corrupting factors facing the Church, over the centuries...
Stay filled with the Holy Spirit and live in the Word, trust God and only learn from top teachers like DP. Thanks to his ministry team. Hallelujah.
The word used to describe Logos, the word of God as "Demiurge" literally means creation in the Greek Language. Δημιουργια. It doesnt mean - the inbetween
Is this Open Theism?
Is trinity concept is a greek pattern of thought rather than hebrew?....
In hebrew idea is only possible for the concept of two power in heaven,..(daniel boyarin),...but three?..🤔
Hi No the Trinity is not Greek thinking - the Greeks could not accept "Jesus was fully GOD - Deity and also fully Human - God Incarnate" ...so the Greeks started to teaching Jesus was half and half - David Teaches Johns Gospel was written very simply to address this wrong teaching - the message of Johns Gospel is " to carry on believing that Jesus is fully human and also Fully GOD - It is Johns Gospel that teaches us - Jesus was with GOD and was GOD - Jesus was not created when he was born of Mary. Jesus was there, with his Father at he very beginning of creation - that is the very start of Johns Gospel - When God chose to make his dwelling amongst us - we have God : a Father in Heaven with Jesus fully Human on Earth - Yet Jesus was with GOD and was God at the very beginning - its not possible to understand this - but it is what John teaches that Jesus is the human form of God who made his dwelling amount us
- the Holy Spirit is then the 3rd person but "they" are all one GOD
Genesis : Let "us" (plural) make(singular form of the verb 'to do' ) man in our image
In the beginning God (plural - Elohim) created (singular) the Heavens and the Earth
To Jews it's easy - there is but one GOD .... HE is not "GOD the Father " You will not find the term God teh Father until after Jesus birth - to a Jew there is but one GOD ...in the Old Treatment .HE is the "Father of Isreal"..... but the Old Testament does not us the title "GOD the Father"
@@DavidPawsonMinistry ..
The greek notion of half and half become full and full isn't in basic the same??...🤔...
It is not also to say how can we proof about it right?... Both are just abstract metaphysical, ..and in Principe not hebrew...(?)..🤔
@@budyharianto8229 half and apple and half a pear do not make a whole …..even in Greek
You cannot be half man and half horse you are either half a man or half a horse and never both
You are correct it’s not Hebrew thinking ,
Hebrew teaching is simple but it’s all pre “Christ - choosing to make his dwelling amongst us “.
The Hebrew thinking is simple
- one God and his name is YHWH and that does not change when we get to the New Testament
- God is not three - he is still one
Yet He chose to make his dwelling on earth and came in the form of a Man - Jesus - to fulfill Hebrew prophecy
Whilst Jesus was there at the beginning He was not a human ….. until he was born through Mary
In my opinion it is metaphysical ie outside of human perception
The challenge is to accept what the Bible says and not to have to make it fit with human comprehension - that’s where the concept of The Trinity fails- because it’s not 3 independent entities - it is 3 personas but not 3 Gods - ‘they’ are One
I like the Hebrew teaching One God yet he is plural
- El ….God
- Elohim …. Plural form of El
In the beginning God( plural ) created ( singular)
Let ‘us’ make man in ‘our’ image
…….. the plurality of one …. It’s amazing !
@@DavidPawsonAudio-Official is the pre existing christ already there in the first 150 years of the church theology, or is just a human development ?.. iam sure that Jesus and the 12 apostles are not trinitarian in their life time right?..
Such way of thought only possible, when roman power elites have their hand in church politics at that time ?...so called Theodosius 1 (with military back up) ...🤔
@@budyharianto8229 Its clear you do not wish to accept the evidence and blame the Church of Rome for the teaching of the Trinity but n answers to your question - Yes the preexistence of Christ was very much there in the first 150 years of the Church before the formation of the Church in Rome
The existence of the Trinity comes from the teaching of Jesus and his Disciples . The Roman Catholic Church has a lot to answer for in terms of its wrong teaching .....but so also does other denominations
Put aside the word Trinity for one moment
After Christs death and specifically after Pentecost christianity grew rapidly, and covered the whole of the know earth in as little as a few hundred years. A true miracle, but the early church faced many challenges: -
- battles from within: with no Bible schools , no New Testament to quote, just word and mouth, mis information and false teaching was rife. Johns Gospel was written to correct this wrong teaching. Does Johns Gospel, written by a Disciple of Jesus, not state - that Jesus was there at the very beginning?
The challenges christians faced were
- battles from other religions and specifically Judaism who crucified christians
- battles from a world that hates God.....and as Jesus said the world will hate you because it hated him first
After many years of research David recorded a series on Church History which is available on RUclips
ruclips.net/video/uV81WiYQ2bs/видео.html
The History from AD30 to today.....
I recommend it to you or alternatively you can read the book online for free via www.davidpawson.co.uk
Was Jesus great commandment in Matthew 28 - go and make disciples of all nations baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit ?....
Three names - three individuals with authority .......... the term "in the name of " carries authority .....
Why did Jesus not say "baptise in the name of God" or in the name of "God the Father" ?
Did Jesus not say -" I and the Father are one? .......? Did Jesus not say in John 14 :16 he would ask the Father to send an advocate - the Spirit of Truth ....who Jesus refers to as "The world cannot accept 'him' who ....a person?
I am quoting scripture not the Roman Catholic Church
It is the very teaching of Jesus and the words and practices of his Disciples that give us the plurality of God, and the existence of a Father, a Son and an advocate the Spirit of Truth ........a plurality, which goes back to pre Jesus existence on earth where even the Hebrew Jews acknowledge the plurality of God - by referring to Him as - Elohim - plural of El, Eloah - plural ....... Elohim more than 2, with words ending in "i'm" indicate 'masculine'
There is a book called "Christ in all the scriptures" by A W Hodgkins should you wish to review the evidence for the existence of Jesus before he chose to make his dwelling amongst us - it gives evidence through every book of the Old Testament
where is the true Church...
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Solomon said day of death better than day of birth
Yes and wasn't he a disaster for Israel. Others had that idea at times, eg Jeremiah wishing he had never been born. We don't know what his final verdict was! Shalom Shalom.
He seems to be a nice man. Bur very confused theologically.
Many would not agree with you. I personally checked I'm out on may occasions and he proved to be right
May I ask a question in judging him - are your views based on study at a theological college or are your views based on what others tell you ?
What he is saying agrees with the earliest church fathers in the first 2 centuries before Augustine. Some of these men were mentored by the apostles or one generation later. It is we who are confused.
I wonder who is truly confused?
This guy has serious problems.
Care to elaborate..?
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