Leveling Up Progression Systems
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- Опубликовано: 6 июн 2024
- Progression systems are in just about every game nowadays- to the point that we're all getting a bit sick of them, but is there more to it?
Using a great little game that's been sucking up all his time, The Architect makes a the case for there being more progression systems than we think, and a different perspective on what the problem really is.
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You Saw
Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed: 2012
Apex Legends: 2019
Starcraft 2: 2010
Warframe: 2013
Monster Hunter World: 2018
World Of Warcraft: 2004
Sunless Skies: 2018
Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze: 2014
Trine 2: 2011
Darkest Dungeon: 2016
Mass Effect 3: 2012
Magic The Gathering: Arena: 2018
Deep Rock Galactic: TBR
Pathway: 2019
Metroid Prime: 2002
Forager: 2019
Pokemon sun and moon: 2016
Hollow Knight: 2017
Dark Souls 2: 2014
Destiny 2: 2017
Enter The Gungeon: 2016
Spelunky: 2008
Risk of Rain 2: TBR
Don't Starve: 2012
Eternal Card Game: 2018
Overwatch: 2016
Guild Wars 2: 2012
Dishonored 2: 2016
Borderlands The Pre-Sequel: 2014
Dicey Dungeons: TBR
Deus Ex: Mankind Divided: 2016
Super Mario Galaxy 2: 2010
Super Mario Odyssey: 2017
Rimworld: 2018
Far Cry 5: 2018
Hitman 2: 2018
Deltarune Chapter 1: 2018
Anthem: 2019
Fallout 76: 2018
Super Mario 64: 1996
God of War: 2018
Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance: 2005
Slay The Spire: 2018
Battle For Wesnoth: 2003
Terraria: 2011
Interesting Links:
Forager has some great grinding, and that's the point: www.polygon.com/2019/4/26/185...
Fantastic article on problems in modern game development: kotaku.com/how-biowares-anthe...
A much more simplistic look at fixing progression systems: • Progression Systems - ... 
Игры
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bowser was catty in 3d world
he was chatty in odyssey
good job with the video btw
The "You Saw" list is amazingly helpful. Thank you!
The ending screen is terraria reworked! Nice.
Since your video quality hasn't let us down so far, and can apparently only get better with time, then feel free to take as much time as you'd like. 👀
man even when your plugging your hilarious :)
Hey, Forager dev here. I can confirm I was going for the DIC
I'm happy I managed to do your great game justice!
Bruuh XD
Mariano Cavallero Forager is a fun game, I've been playing it for the last few days, most of the game is about progression, combination of levels and islands and everything on them.
However there's one issue I have with the level progression, I now have had a few times that I leveled up, spend the point on something, and then realized I can't do anything with it because I'm missing another level up somewhere else on the grid that allows me to make a product to even get what I just unlocked.
It's nice to have a dynamic way to progress with the level ups, but I feel like if you unlock something that requires you to have e.g. leather to make use of it, you shouldn't be able to unlock it yet as it will feel like it's wasted.
(and one minor thing if you read this, key bind rbm, sell all/move all isn't in keybinds)
Other than that, it's a fun game and I'm enjoying it.
thanks to the video and your comment i went and downloaded your game immediately
I'll be getting it for the switch, thanks for making a port! :-)
Game designers always chasing after that D.I.C.
*D.I.C.(k)
Aw I love me some D.I.C(k)
Ahhhh mods
You and Adam has just made game designers look gay to me
But you also made me laugh
So that's nice
Lmao
Dick?
Some (most?) games have more than one progression system. Hollow Knight has all three, with upgrades (nail, health, soul, spell) being direct, new abilities being independent, and charms being customizable.
John Doe I think you hit direct and customizable right on the nail, but the abilities also help you progress to new areas, thus are also direct upgrades.
@@jetajiranuntarat Though they are required to progress, the order you obtain them is customizable. Not to mention, the majority are skippable. In a normal playthrough you only need Mantis Claw, Dream Nail, Vengeful Spirit, and Crystal Heart to beat the game. In low% speedruns, people skip Crystal Heart using a glitch; bringing it down to only 3 required items. Anything besides those items would just be customizing a playthrough.
@@Tymbee Good catch. That's a fair point. When I was commenting, I was already thinking of the ability upgrades and how they're not exactly necessary for game completion, but I mainly commented on OP's categorization of the abilities as being independent, so I didn't feel like making a detailed distinction between different abilities. Good thing you're here to cover all the bases lol.
Hollow Knight is amazing
Yeah, I was going to say that he uses the leveling system in Pokemon as an example of direct, but the variety of Pokemon could used as an example of either indirect or customizable.
I really want a T-shirt now that says: "Give me experiences, not experience points"
www.customink.com/products
I haven't ordered one myself, but you can customize your shirt and order it online. You can also request a sample if you think it won't fit or if you think it might be uncomfortable.
Because I haven't designed one myself I'm not sure how much it costs though, you can try it out if you want.
Also, a bunch of folks I know run little campaigns when they design a shirt to get a bunch of people to group together to buy it so they all get a significant bulk discount. So if you make one, let us all know.
I want one that says "Give me the DIC"
I'm a bit sick of the trend that all games have to be infinitely playable. A good 6 hour game can be just as much worth it, as an RPG you can spend 200 hours in.
completely agree. I'd much prefer a really neat, funy and compact 10-30hrs God of War over inflated, stretched out weeks in WoW (in new patches, you literally cannot play everything till a few weeks after)
I sorta like being able to play a game and properly invest myself into it, get good at it and master it in certain cases. Quite often I am turned off by single player games like that where I have a few hours of nice fun, but left feeling like I didn't achieve anything. It completely is dependent on the person and most of us are different, and I will always lean towards incredibly immersive games (such as skyrim) that can be played for a long time, or highly competitive games (ex. CS:GO / LoL) and even MMORPGs.
I'm glad that fun and short SP games still exist but I wouldn't like to oppose the trend of making people replayable, competitive or progressive games that provide hundreds of hours of fun.
The appeal of longer games like MMOs is the investment, it sort of feels like you have a second life within the game even.
I still do enjoy shorter more well made games, but when a game is finished there's an empty feeling within. Like when you finish a book knowing it's over.
So I usually still play a long term game to keep me entertained in between well built shorter games.
@@carlangelo653 I think that's normally the idea. The only issue is so many games competing to become the one long term game you play.
Dark Souls is plenty infinitely playable, shitty publishers just forgot what replayability is.
Acronym spells DIC and is followed immediately by "Did I Contrive" ah yes layers. Haha. :D
So double DIC then?
@@spartanwar1185 that's double detention
@@dddmemaybe double gae is what it is lmao
two dics are better than one
Definitely Interesting™ Certified
I love the thing where you start a video from the 1st second and I don't have to listen to 3 minutes of sub and smash that like button. Great job as always, keep it up :D
It's getting ridiculous how hard some people try lol
MCGamerCZ's ''Warframe - Ceramic Dagger - Is It ANY GOOD ?!?'' is a pretty good parody
its ya boi here reminding you to dingle that bell
I've found that corner of youtube where I literally never hear that shit. I've avoided every clickbaiter and poptuber for years and freakin' years, yet still have been able to find new and plenty of content on the site. I only know it's a thing because of the memes, honestly.
Like that smash button!
@@ArchitectofGames lol
I really like terraria's progression system, which is kind of like a skill tree, but because your skills and abilities are fully dependant on the items you get, you can switch between being a ranged character to being a melee character nearly instantly. the game discourages this because actually getting enough stuff to make that total change costs a lot of ingame money, resources and time, but the class system is always player imposed, which i think adds a lot of freedom to the game that is very critical in sandbox games.
The Monster Hunter series is very similar to this, though the gameplay is quite different. Your skills and abilities are tied to your armor, weapons, and equipment, not your character. You can swap from a Lance build to a Bow build just by changing equipment.
You might like how Factorio's progression system works. Also dependent on resources you collect or craft rather than your character.
@@leonidas14775 eh, my issue with factorio is that its very mechanical and such, and that doesn't really appeal to me.
Also, Nice pfp
This game is three genres, rpg, sandbox, and survival
also has a bangin soundtrack
I find it interesting that you only differentiated Progression systems based on direction. The way I split them up is between the core element being "progressed". You've got:
Numerical Stats - the raw beefing up of numbers
Options - the number of possible choices you can make
Player Skill - Essentially "git gud"
Knowledge - Simply knowing what enemy is weak to what and where to get what you need
You also have to balance these types of progression based on the type of game, the type of audience, and what kind of experience you're trying to convey. They're also critical to keep in mind when designing for Difficulty Settings, as certain types of increased difficulties will only challenge certain types of progression.
This was almost exactly the original way I was going to do it until I decided to swap to doing it based on direction!
@@ArchitectofGames neat. Both are important of course, and it's less a matter of choosing one and more about tweaking what you go with to mitigate the issues caused by any of them.
Talking about Progression Systems as not something new but as something that's always been there makes me think of what I've been doing, too. It doesn't apply to just games, but education and even work. How best to guide the learner to become skilled at the targeted task, identifying the core element they're best or worst at to tailor an appropriate progression curve, or even the simple act of evaluating what it is you're trying to DO by direction or core.
Yeah there's lots of ways to divide it up, the options and numerical stuff, for example, can be interesting when you put your loadout together, but how about the changes it has after the fact? When you actually take your gear setup for a spin? Progression is really tricky to do right
I really love the horizontals myself, whether it's being given something and having to adapt or choosing carefully what kind of power to utilize in a situation, or a balance of course. I love when the vertical is simply giving you more options in the horizontal, consisting of basically balanced options that are contextually imbalanced for you to take advantage of in clever and engaging ways.
benedict co, you need to rearrange those so they make a good acronym. I suggest PONK. - But I see your point of view.
Wait, actually being conscious about the media we consume? And what's more, not financially supporting companies that engage in unethical behavior??? Voting with your wallet?!
Lunacy
Oh how naive. You can not be buying the F2P junk and still be supporting it. Ever heard of F2P whales? If you feel like the game is unethical in how it charges money, don't play the game at all.
@@GKCanman I agree, if one is conscious about the media they consume, they'll probably realize that games are benefitted from free players too, which is why my 8 year boycott of EA has included not touching the free/free-weekend games.
I understand name calling if someone disagrees with you, sure it's still immature, but I don't think I understand why you'd engage in that if no one has said anything that contradicts your beliefs.
@@Ouvii Sorry, i probably came across more insulting than intended. I just find the whole concept of voting with your wallet to be largely naive, not you specifically. If a game starts aggressively pushing gambling mechanics in their game and the developers gave a line like "if you don't like it don't buy it, vote with your wallet," then i'd be rightly pissed. I'm certain you would be too, but when games are services now you can pull some really nasty bait and switches on people.
@@GKCanman yeah, i agree with you, but until we finally get our torches and pitchforks and burn ea headquarters down. "voting with our wallets" and making clever yt videos educating people is kinda the only thing we can do. and don't get me wrong. when we get our torches and pitchforks, i'm first in line, but for now it doesn't seem realistic.
(GAMERS RISE UP!! (pls don't kill me xD))
This, the non paying players are content for the whale. We are the NPC mobs but they don't have to do any work on our ai
Did you actually make a pun using warframe game paly "Over the last Tenno so years" . Brilliant
;D
I love DICs, I want them in all my games. Finding out what DIC fits into your game is a challenge I know all too well. When I write my own games I like to fit in a little taste testing of all kinds of DICs, to see which kind goes well with it.
Speaking of Progression systems I'm generally not really a fan of direct upgrades in strategy games, although a lot of them seem to have them nowadays. The main reason is because much of the strategy aspect in those games can be overshadowed by raw stats.
Grinding early levels or 'random encounter' levels often found in many strategy games nowadays can easily result in overpowered units that can clear entire levels with pure stats alone. This can also accidentally happen if you happen to want to see all the sidequest type missions or just found a certain 'training' stage really fun.
Alternately, if you happen to make it past several stages without really stopping to level up your characters, you can easily be forced to backtrack and grind your troops to level because the enemies are now simply too high level for you to beat without some more stats on your troops.
Some games balance their troop growth and stuff really well, but some games, it feels like I'm just supposed to mindlessly grind and just try to puzzle out how I kill 25 enemy units in 6 turns for that gold medal.
I've always been a fan of progression systems when they work. But that's just it: they have to WORK.
A surprising number of games have a progression system that seems like an afterthought or is nothing more than a hindrance.
Progression systems can be interesting and can actually add to the experience of a game when they are done well.
In Zelda games, for example, you could go out of your way to explore secret areas in the hopes of finding a heart container. Did you NEED it to progress? No. But it made the extra time feel like it was a worthy investment, and progressed the strength of your character by a noticeable amount.
Dark souls has similar mechanics where hidden paths and optional encounters can lead to many benefits.
Path of Exile has a massive point tree where you can really fine-tune your character as you level in a way that tailors more to your desired experience than most ARPGs. It's an interesting system of progression where you aren't really getting "skills", but instead picking up small "perks" each level. A big part of the progression in the game is learning the tree itself--which can be an enjoyable experience of it's own.
Even the traditional RPG progression system is enjoyable to me as long as it is in the correct genre of game (that is... when it's in an RPG...). Many adventure and action titles nowadays seem to slap an RPG style progression system to stretch the playtime of the game. It's just not something that works well in those types of games (I'm looking at you, Assassin's Creed).
yeah, PoE, I am playing a witch, and wasnt too interested in totems... until I found 2 spells... one creates corpses (and puts corruption on the ground) that are level scaled with the enemies in the area, the other spell blows up corpses... doing damage that scales with the corpse's max HP, thus, my desecration corpses have roughly the same max HP as the general enemy population, so I create bodies directly to create more bodies through murder,
Side note: there's also the use of the type 1 progression in leveling up your gems, and the type 2 in the form of the fact that you can stick different gems on the equipment to make them synchronize in weird ways, for instance, there's a spell that makes you dash through enemies to deal damage, but out of curiosity, I gave it the gem that gives it the totem modifier, and now the totem is dashing through enemies, and that can be used alongside the totem laser connection to put the totem on the other side of the enemy, zapping them continuously after the dash,
Sorry I am very much questioning the Turtles!
DO NOT QUESTION THE TURTLES
the turtles are fairly normal for a Rimworld run. Hell, almost had a colony die to turtles... that was a thing.
it is okay, the turtles are inside of you either way.
@@ArchitectofGames What mod for THOSE turtles?
13:38 BATTLE FOR WESNOTH!!!!
You instantly won me over with that, time to give this video a like.
0:07 "over the last Tenno so years..." You really Framed that one well. Bravo, sir. Bravo.
Adam *Shows Warframe*
"In the last Tenno so years..."
Me: Ayy i see what ya did there
(Yes ik that wasn't intentional, just poking a bit of fun)
Nice.
I didn't even notice lol
I was gonna write that
Why are you everywhere
Fantastic video. One of my favorites of yours, can't wait till it becomes public so I can share with friends
It's public now.
Because I can watch it :-)
Man I love your videos. How much? Enough to stick around to hear your patrons' names.
"The bone sword does 50% more damage than the pervious sword" 2:48
But the bonesword is the first sword D:
the sword before does an assumed 2/3rds damage of the bone sword, as a placeholder beholder.
I greatly appreciate your clear and simple classification of progression systems. The naming is intuitive (and hilarious), the icons are descriptive enough on their own merit, and the explanation with specific examples further my understanding of the concepts. Great content per usual, Adam Millard!
Really good video! Especially how it flows and narration. Splendid, Good Work!
I love that Todd Howard joke at the end lol. Nice video as always!
He said “‘Did I Contrive’ these names” Which also is D.I.C
this... is absolutely brilliant!!! why arent your channel popular mate!! you are soooo under rated. such a wonderful review for game systems. more power to your channel mate.
Excellent video! Seems like you took a sociological approach to figuring out how the progression system works. Must have taken a long time. And you also have all the games you showed in the description. I love it! I think a found a new awesome channel
Out of nowhere suddenly rimworld music starts playing, good background music choice!
I see a man of culture
13:38 love the 'Battle for Wesnoth' shoutout. I really like the way they made each unit seem like your own player character, so it made you want to keep them alive once you leveled them up just one time.
thank you for this comment. I came to comments to try to find out the name of that game b/c it looks super cool!
it's fun. I cheesed a campaign or two by spamming the turn reload keys. all in all it's solid and has lots of mods and in game add on for new units and campaigns. mostly a single player game though from my experience. @@ethandowler4669
I like your style and explanations. Glad I found this channel
I really like the way you tackle problems with design, it's really neat to watch someone organize stuff originally and commit to it to discover the truths that can be told by a single perspective. Also adding that purpose of creating positive and effective dialogue to improve the state of games in general. I really like it.
It always warms my heart when I see Battle for Wesnoth somewhere.
That game is not appreciated enough.
I need to check out Forager sometime, it's on my wishlist but a bit pricey for me right now.
The game's certainly good enough to warrant the price but I agree it's a bit too much, wait for christmas or summer sales I'd say
It's a great game but it's not for everyone, there's a free demo on itch.io you can try out before you buy it to see if you're willing to spend for it.
I will deffo get it when the price drops below 10 quid or so.
Haven't watched all your videos yet, but this one is probably one of the best that I have watched so far!
I love how this video is entertaining, informative, and a great source of recommendations for great indie games.
Also, big props to you for praising classic Fire Emblem.
Warrame: 2013 in the description should be Warframe: 2013
we need more upvotes here so he fixes this.
Mathew Perkins who actually cares?
@@crabosity forgot my life at the end there
it got fixed
Props for reminding me of Battle For Wesnoth. What a great game!
This is the second video that I watched from you and I really enjoy how you address some issues but I had to hit that Subscribe button for your humour, please don't lose it.
Fantastic work! You’ve earned a sub 👍 looking forward to seeing more content
Beyond Good and Evil has a really great progression system of movement (for your vehicles). Going from a rinky-dink hovercraft, to a rinky-dink hovercraft that actually works, then can boost, then can hop, and eventually hook up to a flying ship, which itself can then be upgraded to fly into space.
Hopefully BGE2 is able to continue that system in a way that doesn't feel cheap, though it's Ubisoft, so there will probably be character levels and perks as well...
D.I.C "Did I Contrive...."
I see what you did there.
Rimworld's progression system is you progressing towards the day Randy decides to destroy your colony.
Big props for using footage from Sunless Skies! It's one of the best games I have played in many years, but few people seem to even be aware of its existence!
"Over the last Tenno so years..." You are either sneaky or I'm coniditioned by WF.
This is why “it’s only cosmetic” always was a weak excuse at best.
Listening to this while programming games is so eye-opening :D Keep up the good work
can i just say that i REALLY appreciate that you Actually put proper subtitles/captions on your videos??? its such a breath of fresh air.
1. That was excellent! Thanks.
2. The "it sucks because they want us to keep playing it forever" is extremely on point. To me, it feels very related to everything Jim Sterling has been saying of late.
Battle for Wesnoth!!! Love this game :D
13:38 The Battle for Wesnoth. Damn this brings back so many good memories
Haven't even started watching cause I missed your vid before this one, but I can already tell that this is gonna be a good one.
Wooh pedants rejoice, he said Kristensen! Great video.
*Hears Rimworld music*
Wait what
*Talks bout Rimworld*
Yeeeee boi
I'm scarred from the word rimjob and will never hear rim right again for the rest of my life. thanks internet. probably one of the few times it's truly managed to scar me mentally.
@@dddmemaybe But it feels so good
I really love it when you use the RimWorld Soundtrack. It's so relaxing and probably a key reason why I invest hours on end into it.
Also great video as always! And I really need to take a look at forager.
Just found this channel, Great video!
A gun that fires guns...my life is complete. If only this could make its way into borderlands I might need new pants
It will be in a lootbox that costs $$. Don't worry, it's just cosmetics. It might LOOK like you're firing guns with a gun, but those are actually just normal bullets that LOOKS like guns.
(In your description, you forgot to include "Thronebreaker: The Witcher Tales" which you show at 11:40 after Gungeon a second time! Just so you know! I think it would be listed after Hitman 2 in your list.)
Seriously amazed by the number of games you covered in this one. Much awesome
This video was really helpful :) I've been kind of stuck on how to manage unit production in a tactical RPG I'm designing (Kind of similar to games like XCOM and Fire Emblem) and I know that I wanted to give the progression system a lot of customization so that players could take each of their units in whatever direction they want, but I couldn't figure out the way to do that. My plan was to avoid creating classes in game so that players can have a more open-ended experience, but I originally wanted to design the system so that players would choose between unlocking unique abilities by dedicating units to particular weapon types creating very niche units who can be used effectively in particular scenarios or creating more well-rounded who aren't necessarily powerhouses in any particular weapon type but can effectively be used in a much wider variety of scenarios. I was considering doing this by tying abilities to weapon type progression, but it was kind of difficult to come up with abilities to were balanced and couldn't be combined to exploit the system.
When you mentioned Fire Emblem it got me thinking about the Fire Emblem games I've played. I'm not going to list everything I was thinking of, but one thing in particular was pretty inspiring. In Awakening there are bonus weapons you can unlock by increasing your team's renown and these weapons are named after the many offensive skills in the game. Combine that with the idea of having limited experience in other Fire Emblem titles like Gaiden/Echoes or in Fates during the Conquest storyline and I had an idea. I could have the unit progression system directly effect how effective a unit is with different weapon types and offer a few basic things outside of weapon type to further individualize units like armor type, mount type, and various rogue skills like lockpicking and such that can be unlocked by leveling up units and dedicating skill points. I can then also scatter various "legendary items" throughout the world which can be unlocked by completing optional levels. The more interesting abilities would belong to the gear found in the dungeons which would prevent them from being stacked and would also give players opportunities to further individualize their units by giving them these unique items.
A problem I had in Fire Emblem Awakening and Fates was that once I understood the meta-game I started to use specific units in every playthrough and give them the same exploitable skills every time and it got kind of boring. In Echoes they got rid of that problem, but they also took away most of the customization so units were either good or bad and there was almost no way to make up for a unit's weaknesses. I think that taking the basic principles from these games regarding how units are made unique can be a good idea, but keeping options open for the player after unlocking new characters can mean that players might experiment with what works best for each unit over numerous playthroughs of the game. Something else I like from Echoes is that there are shrines in every dungeon which players can use to boost the stats of their units. I'm not thinking of copying that idea, but perhaps by including a way to respec a unit's skills they might be able to create more unique builds for each of the units in the game. Furthermore, by limiting the availability of respecs the player will be forced to decide which units they would get the most use out of by changing their talents. Like, say a player has created a whole bunch of units already who use fire magic and then they unlock another fire mage. They could respec that unit's abilities so they can be made into a light magic user to act as a healer or a support unit.
I think applying a better understanding of progression types to my game design I can greatly open up the customization options that players have in a way that's rewarding without creating a system that can be exploited. I'm going to start working on a revised progression system right away :)
I feel like direct progression systems in the near-ubiquitous RPG/shooter hybrid game completely rob the shooter genre of any weight and power that usually comes with the weapons you can use. Putting a big number on the screen and making the monster's health bar go down a bit is no substitute for the satisfaction of using the right weapon on the right enemy. In a game like Doom or Call of Duty if you were to shoot a human-sized target with a rocket launcher, chances are they'd be blown into a fine powder... but in a shooter/RPG like borderlands or fallout, if the numbers say the target survives then that's that. Even if they only pull through with one hit point, that rocket launcher suddenly doesn't feel like a rocket launcher anymore... and the same can be applied to just about any other weapon.
I think that's true but I also think it could harm the gameplay. For example you should be able to ohko someone without armor by stabbing him with your sword. Being able to chain lore and gameplay together is very useful and dificult and I haven't seen a lot of games like that.
"Now, more than ever, Games are trying to get you to play forever."
The unfortunate truth.
Great video as always! I wasn't expecting you to mention a game like Destiny 2 but since you did and I'm already here then I might as well correct you on a couple of things. First, while it's true that the enemies scale with you after some point this only starts happening after you are like 50 levels above them (sounds like a lot but it's the equivalent to like 5 WoW levels) so there is a bit of progression there. And second, I think the community that plays that game would agree that the real progression comes more from getting the best weapons than from reaching higher levels and you can even see that on your video where you started with only a small pistol and then next you were using a much cooler smg that chained lighting to all nearby enemies when you fired it and even that is barely a mid tier weapon right now.
Honestly, I don't even know why I felt the need to ramble about that, it's just a game that I enjoy maybe a bit too much. Again, great video as always.
Thank you for putting in links for what video games you had in the background. I played Battle For Wesnoth: 2003 many years ago when I did go to school. But I had forgotten the name of the game, so I have been unable to find it again for years. So again thank you :D
After 10 years of esports, I am unable to enjoy leveling systems anymore. It's not like I don't care for the power fantasy, but a game is just more interesting to me if it's about me getting better at it than if it's about my character getting better at it. If a player can beat the game's final boss at level 1 by being smart and badass, I find it cool. If an absolute idiot can beat the game by accident, by simply grinding long enough, I find it boring.
The Witcher 3 is a prime example of this. I remember exiting White Orchard for the first time, and getting to Velen. I explored for a while, because open worlds are cool. And then I ran into a bunch of deserters.
At that point in the story, Geralt was a mutant with superhuman senses and reactions, with a hundred years worth of battle experiences, a few thousand kills to his name, and the sharpest swords this side of the Yaruga.
At that point of the story, the deserters were drunk and had clubs and wooly shirts.
But because the game decided Geralt was level 3, and the drunkards were level 10, it took me 20 sword blows to kill each deserter. Throughout this 5 minutes long fight, one of them managed to hit me, instantly reducing me to a couple hit points.
There was nothing more immersion breaking than this. In this instance, the game failed to deliver on being a roleplaying game, and a system originally designed to make the game feel more rewarding made it feel shitty instead.
What's worse? A couple hours of gameplay later, Geralt went into the crypt of some random idiot a thousand times less badass than he, found a rusty piece of iron... And it was twice as good as his Witcher's sword.
To this day, I've yet to finish that game, and not for a lack of trying to enjoy it. I tried lowering the difficulty, so that enemies wouldn't be bullet sponges... But the way difficulty is coded in that game makes it so enemies also become idiots as the game's difficulty setting is lowered: they stop using their shield, attack less often, etc... I tried using mods to start the game at level 15... But at that point Geralt is so strong he has the Superman problem of not ever being in true danger instead.
What I want to see... What I REALLY want to see... Is a game where instead of a difficulty slider, you'd get difficulty sliderS, plural. I wanna get a slider for enemy health, another for enemy damage, another for enemy AI, another for loot drop chance, etc... I want a game to trust me when I tell it that I know the kind of experience I'm looking for.
I've recently started getting into tabletop rpgs - D&D, mutants and masterminds, etc... And the thing that makes those games great, is that you get to tell the game master what kind of experience you're looking for. I can tell my game master that I'm perfectly happy playing an entire adventure without leveling up or finding a single magic item if I want to. Because it's so free-form, they can change the rules, cater the experience to the players at the table.
Ark survival evolved (while being a mmo) has that if you play single player or on an unoficial server. I too think that this should be a standard, just like mouse sensibility, keybindings etc
Bullet sponges deserve to be eradicated from the existence of mankind.
I agree full-heartedly. In a videogame, we don't need to see the character grow stronger to feel growth, we the player can get better instead. That doesn't mean the game can't have a progression system, but that the system should open more options, not make existing ones better. That's why I love games like Rayman 3, though there is some progression through getting more health and such (if I recall correctly, been quite a few years), the main progression is in unlocking new types of power-up suits, and learning to use them effectively. Beating the final boss doesn't require you to have bigger stats than at the beginning, but does require you to have properly mastered all the different elements of the game, that have gradually unlocked throughout your playthrough. THAT is what a progression system should aim to do. Not just increase some number.
@@oddyslay I also enjoyed rayman and like those skill+"new tech" systems. Although platformers are a very distinct genre than RPG's. I think that RPG's can have some kind of stat boosting progression. This progression is much more interesting if it comes with traits, for example in most elder scrolls games being a vampire comes with pros and cons. You get stat boosts, better ilusion etc. but you are weak to fire and the sun lowers your stats or straight up kills you. Another example could be being able to shoot and reload 10% faster but have your aim kind of move so your accuracy is lowered.
@@OrionJunqueras I think it is doable to make a good RPG with no stat progression. But it is certainly easier to make one with stat progression, so I don't expect or even necessarily want the change to happen. But I do wish for a return to the times when your choices mattered. For instance, if you compare perks from the original fallouts, and Fallout 4, gone are the interesting perks like "animals are no longer hostile", replaced almost in entirety by perks like "do 10% more damage".
LV --> LOVE --> Level Of ViolencE
Not every game is undertale.
Great video!
This is an _awesome_ breakdown of different progression systems! I also absolutely love how games can combine them. Monster Hunter is a great example of a combo of Direct and Indirect, where what weapon you choose drastically alters your gameplay, and then you work make more and more powerful versions of that weapon type. The fact that absolutely nothing locks you into one weapon type, and that you can make the most powerful available of any weapon type at any stage, means that this becomes less a locked-in class system and more a constantly progressing toolbox. I tended to focus on 2-3 weapons, giving me enough variety without trying to make the latest of everything.
"hours of farming argon crystal"
i felt that that
the warframe player reading this comment felt that
everyone felt that
7:39 How can you compare getting random cards in a card game to lootboxes in Overwatch?
By getting more cards in Hearthstone you actually progress somewhat and may become stronger. In Overwatch the lootboxes unlock entirely cosmetic things, they don't make progress in any way
Ah, but it still FEELS like progression. And that's really all that counts
Was already liking the video for the content.
Then, noticed Rimworld OST as background around 10:25. Now i love it.
Even Wesnoth got there! Wow I haven't seen it for a long time. great vids!
i like how you mentioned argon crystals instead of nitain extract,
Xotano bcz nightwave, yes it’s grindy but cmn 15x nitain for one set of creds
I kinda disagree about every gaming having a progression system. If we're being technical enough to call "progressing through a level" a progression system, at which point it starts being a bit meaningless of a term altogether, there are several with none. Does life have a progression system merely because as time goes on, stuff happens? Does "cleaning" have a progression system, because as I clean, stuff gets cleaner, and therefore I am progressing? I'd say no, and honestly, if you'd say yes, there is no point at all in using the phrase. If everything is a progression system, then nothing is. But that aside, there are many games without an *overarching* progression system. For instance something as simple as Dota 2, no matter how many games you play, there is no change to the game for doing so. You can buy cosmetics, but not earn them, and a money-bought cosmetics change is not, in my opinion at least, progression. Though that said, the Dota 2 battle-pass system connected to the international, could fairly be called a progression system, so I suppose you could say dota has one, but only for 1-2 months a year.
I'd also argue that games where the only progression, is in unlocking new levels/stages/missions and advancing the story, are inherently different from those with character levels and ability unlocks. Games like Halo, where the gameplay and the character you control stays the exact same for the entire game, no powerups of any sort, aside from weapons and vehicles, which are static, temporary parts of each mission and not at all the same thing as a standard progression system.
I do not see the need for there to be a system that shows you your growth, one-shotting level 1 enemies because I am now level 50 is not at all satisfying to me. Being able to easily handle the enemies on level one, because I, as a player, have gotten good enough to beat level 10, is all I need. In many games, character progression is an obstacle to player growth. Even in games like Dark Souls, which prides itself on being for "those that like hard games", the satisfaction of being easily able to handle enemies that once troubled you is diluted to the point of bitterness, by the fact that it is not a simple result of you getting better, but also of your stats increasing, and your equipment being better. I'd argue that Dark Souls could drop its level and weapon upgrade system altogether, and be a better game for it.
TL:DR: Progression is inherent to everything, including all games. A progression system is not.
"Character progression is an obstacle to player progression." I like dat. Dat's good way to put it.
I agree, it's exactly what bugged me about this video
Awesome food for thought!
This showed up in the recommended section on a video by Hank Green on the new RUclips Studio, glad YT decided it was somehow relevant ^_^ Interesting video :D
"not listen to Todd Howard's sweet little lies"
Dude. It's CY+5. That meme's so CY+3
CY?
@@DavidGuild Current Year
Progression systems are great for skinner-boxing your consumer base too.
Damnit man, I friggen love ya. You deserve more than 114 subs.
114000 is definitely larger than 114
Ill hit 115 one of these days
119 now! 5 subscribers in two weeks is pretty good.
I think another aspect that could have also been mentioned about progression is that they are often used for giving a sense of achievement as well as a "tangible" result to make us think that the time and effort investment we have put in has born fruit.
A good angle that could have been discussed is also why a lot of the current "AAA" game titles almost by default have some sort of cookie-cutter progression structure: it serves as cheap filler or padding in lieu of more well crafted content.
BTW been enjoying your work. I would very much like to see you make a video on 'Why people play games' and the different ways games are made to fulfill that reason. I think that'd be a good topic to cover and I'd very much like to see your angle of it.
Keep up the good work!
I'm sorry but for God of War you said "It helped their journey without strealing the limelight"
You didn't specify exactly what it did to not get in the way of the travel.
You're still going through menus, you're still managing armor and weapon stats and youre still unlocking skills through trees, forcing you to start gimped just so you can artificially gain the new abilities in an obtrusive mechanical fashion through EXP. If anything I think it did steal the limelight by only making enemies at higher level even more annoying to fight because of the value differences, and it takes away from the core game design of using your abilities by making you manage extra things just so you have access to all your things and not spend an eternity trying to defeat a foe because youre not doing optimal amounts of damage.
I love your videos dude, but unless you're going to elaborate, you can't just say something out of the blue like that without backing up the point
Hey AOG
please consider actually playing roguelikes when you want to refer to their progression system
I can assure you, that progression system is just a Enter The Gungeon thing, and not a roguelike staple
Nice video!
Well that was really nice to watch. I think that's something I've been struggling with in making my games. Progression systems.
I think you are stretching the definition of a progression system. It's not the same as progression further in the story or simply going forward. It's also not improving as a player (opposed to a player character). It's a *system*, where your character or account *levels up*. And it's the form of progression that's often used to exploit players and give them an artificial means of progression by doing the same things over and over. Of course it's not always bad, but it's the one most problematic in its purest form and it's the one that is most likely referred to when saying "progression *system*" and when talking about *levelling up*. Simply going farther in the game is not levelling up.
I still cringe every time people call games like Gungeon a Roguelike ;_;
An ASCII enthusiast, eh?
@@Tymbee doesn't have to be ASCII, but yeah you could call me an enthusiast for 'traditional' Roguelikes (don't like calling them traditional, since there are ones that are still innovating with new mechanics etc within the framework of Rogue, and so calling them traditional doesn't make a whole lot of sense - for games that are innovating, look at some of this year's 7DRLs such as Inner Life, and Quinta Essentia. Also Cogmind is another good example)
@@VikingSchism I gotcha. You might like Dungeons of Dredmor, if you haven't played it already. I don't know if it's super innovative, but it's definitely a worth playing.
brilliant work
Quality stuff. As always.
another great video. thanks
Something about Skyrim's level progression system always struck me as wrong. It's the same problem as the one you mentioned Destinty 2 having, that enemies level up the same as you do, wherever you are. So you don't feel like you're getting more powerful. Sometimes you can end up feeling like leveling up is making you weaker instead!
Whaa..? RUclips recomended me a channel that appeals to my taste and isn’t a toy unboxing channel?!
RUclips, are you drunk?
On a more serious note, this was the first of your videos that I watched and it was a great one! Can’t wait to binge watch the rest :D
I saw that sneaky Battle for Wesnoth clip in there, you can't hide it from me!
Great video, thanks for making it! Progression systems are definitely growing stagnant and old hat in the AAA space, and could use a shake up. Also, double thanks for turning me on to Dicey Dungeons, that game looks wonderful. Just bought it on itch and can't wait to try it out for myself!
One small critique I'd like to throw your way in terms of your videos however: I really like the fact that you label what songs are playing as you're moving through your videos...But I can't hear them at all. Even when turning my volume up really high, I swear I'm not hearing any music behind your voice. I understand you don't want to drown out your voice but you can be a lot more generous with the volume of the music, I promise.
Outside of that, keep up the great content :)
Recognised the iconic Rimworld OST while it was playing over the Super Mario. Such good music
Top notch content with slight scent of good humor.
I am getting content diabetes from your videos.
LOVE ur content dude!
The Rimworld Soundtrack. Didnt hear a word you say, because of all the colony flashbacks i got. This gane was awesome
Good show Tenno. 👊
That tiny M'lady killed me when you put on the fedora for a second
A steep commitment of one hour (!) after dying would make a hardcore rogue-like player tear up a little. Great vid, man