Engineering The Largest Nuclear Fusion Reactor
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- Опубликовано: 16 май 2024
- A civil engineer's tour of the ITER megaproject
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I don’t know much about superconducting coils or cyclotron resonance heating or breeder blankets, but I do know it takes a lot of earthwork and steel and concrete to build the biggest nuclear fusion reactor on earth.
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What’s your guess for when the first commercial fusion power station will come online?
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A solar power plant is a nuclear fusion plant with a lot less complexity! So about 25 years ago.
I'll make a very optimistic guess for 2029
What they say about Fusion is that it's always about twenty years away. My prediction is it will be at least another century before a lifecycle-profitable, energy-positive, fusion plant is operating.
It's hard to guess, but this project won't help.
Maybe never man, maybe never. Without high temperature super-conductor breakthrough, not likely. As of right now it's just a science cash grab for tax revenue. Do some Google searches with some objective search terms, and decide for yourself.
Its insane to think that no matter how advance humanity get, the only option to generate massive power is to spin a steam turbine.
Yea, we create most of our electricity by finding something hot, boiling water, then spinning a turbine
It isn't. It's just the most efficient. There is nothing wrong with steam
And to think that is only a thing for the last 150 years. It’s hard to imagine how fast we have progressed after millennia of subsistence living.
or CO2 which can run at higher temperatures than steam turbines and get higher efficiency. also theres solar of course, that's just turning light directly into electricity.
Not the only, there are things like Windpower where to generator is driven directly by the blades or photovoltaics where ther is no clasical generator. That being said steam turbines are still very widespread.
I'm a civil engineer at ITER :). Nice to see my project on a cool channel.
What do you do at ITER? Just curious what kinda stuff people do there
@@anuragneelam8527nuh huh, that's top secret buddy.
Dream job.
You can see and hear on the head engineer that he could talk about this for hours, it was probably amazing having someone not on his team react in such a interested way. Simply amazing.
Id listen to him for hours what they are building is so intricate and fascinating
The most intimidating part of projects like this (similar to Apollo program, or building a megastructure) is that not a single person knows every part. Everyone realizes they are only a small cog in a large machine. With billions of different bolts and nuts, it is easy to imagine one person making a mistake somewhere along the line. I am deeply interested in the mechanisms that would prevent human error (redundancy, double or triple checks, etc.). This project will take 20-30 years to complete, meaning a large transfer of personel over the years. Only a few people saw the beginning as well the end...
Right?
I was so flabberghasted when I read that some engineers and astromechanics who where there at the planning start of New Horizons in 1992 where already retired when it launched in 2006 - and wheeled in in a wheelchair to watch their former students man mission control when the probe zipped by pluto in 2015.
Imagine working years of your life diligently on something - and only finding out decades later if it worked at all?
It’s why modern engineering involves so much documentation and review.
Any well designed product goes through an exhaustive FMEA (failure modes and effects analysis) process that involves experts from many different disciplines to think of all the ways a step or system can fail, and then find ways to mitigate those failures. Ideally you’d want to design them out, but that isn’t always possible or practical.
The “least desirable” form of problem detection/avoidance requires human input. Humans aren’t well suited for repetitive, boring tasks. There’s a whole branch of engineering dedicated to this called human factors.
I’d really like to see a Practical Engineering series on FMEA. It’s fascinating stuff, and has come a long long way over the past couple decades.
It's a great example of the rise and steps forward of civilization and parts of the intrinsic ties of collectivism and altruism to science and engineering. We are better together and anyone could know something that others can't. If you don't help each other we will progress forward slower. The best advances always require teamwork to bring forward and make possible. Many individuals have many ideas, but it takes a village to implement grander schemes
@@sircrapalot9954Think about the Lockheed employees who designed and built the C-130 Hercules transport aircraft in the 50s. I'm going to bet not a single one of them is still on the program today, and many of them have passed on, and yet the aircraft is still in production.
@@RCAvhstape I wouldn’t be surprised if many legacy parts designed on slide rules and drafted by craftsmen with pens have remained unchanged. It’s probably not worth the expense updating those designs without a requirement to do so.
That being said, the C-130 has gone through many revisions. Any newer systems and modifications are going to undergo through extensive design, system, and manufacturing reviews, to a level of detaill that was simply not possible half a century ago.
Supply chains at OEMs with old legacy designs that are still in service are sometimes hampered by their own past. There is a lot of tribal know-how that lower tier suppliers have but isn’t shared up the chain. I’ve seen these challenges firsthand in my own engineering experience at aerospace companies. Modern digital designs carry much more information than just a CAD model, which improves knowledge retention.
Love how enthusiastic Monsieur Patisson is to share his team's truly insane engineering achiements!
Nothing insane about engineering. Quite the opposite.
yeah he was almost giggling when he was explaining how many anti-sismic bearings they had, wholesome
Yeah! I imagine the civil engineering aspect is often overlooked in favour of the flashy physics when most outlets cover ITER. But it is truly awe-insipiring!
@@AlanTheBeast100you must be fun at parties
@@DogsRNice A riot and a blast. But engineering isn't "insane". It's a profession - old and noble. I know several French, Italian, British, American and other engineers on ITER. They are not "awesome" or "insane". They are humble, devoted and mostly: professional. And absolute riots at parties.
What a fascinating exploration of the ITER infrastructure. Diving into the nuts and bolts of ITER with you was a blast!⚒🔨🪛🔧⚙
Seeing this crossover is like seeing two of my passions overlap.
it never ceases to amaze me just how many ways we've come up with to boil water, and just how complicated we can make it!
We have better ways of making electricity than boiling water.
Yes, Dr David Mills who invented the evacuated solar tube (for solar hot water etc) has said the race has been won by PV, wind and batteries/storage.
@@christiangeiselmann like?
@@linuxguy1199 Hydro is the only one I can think of. Wind and solar are nowhere near as efficient as steam or water is.
@@christiangeiselmannnot really. Most of our generators are still turbine based. Second best option is photovoltaic cells but turbines are still more efficient.
With all the rubbish happening around the world right now, it's so relieving and rewarding to see this progress. Thank you for covering this ❤
Do you think Niger will get their own fusion reactor?
After ITER is fully done in 2035, and after they do 20 years of trials after that, they're going to tell us:
Nuclear fusion plants are 20 years away. 😂
@@jonslg240 Probably yeah, and that's only if the results are positive. Cause then you need to make a design that uses ITER's architecture while incorporating the electricity-making bits. Then you gotta build a first prototype of that, and only then could wider construction begin, which will probably take years as well
The ITER line of experiments will never provide commercially viable power. The progress is much slower than videos like this suggest. (Even though I normally like Grady's stuff, I think he got swept up by the hype in this case.)
What Grady said at 12:35 is technically accurate if it's interpreted generously, but it's misleading because he doesn't explain the subtleties of the statement or address the more significant questions. Q measures the ratio of energy extracted from the plasma to the energy put into the plasma. It doesn't account for:
A) inefficiencies of heating the plasma
B) the energy used by the rest of the facility (e.g. the cooling system)
C) inefficiencies of turning heat from the plasma into electrical power
D) the energy required to gather and process the fuel
E) the amortized energy cost of building the facility
Accounting for these factors, the Q value needs to be far in the hundreds, if not thousands, for it to truly break even. Even once it breaks even, it won't be commercially viable. Economically, it cannot compete with fission, fossil fuels, or even renewables, due its absurd up-front cost. (...more on that below)
Contrary to what the video implies, ITER is not intended to demonstrate the viability of fusion power. It's intended to gather data on plasma confinement. The first time that anything from this research program will get hookup up to an electrical generator will be the planned successor to ITER, called DEMO. That will not begin operation until the early 2050s--assuming no additional delays in ITER and no delays in DEMO, which is obviously terribly unrealistic. The kicker is that DEMO isn't even intended to be commercially viable.
Current projections for the cost of ITER are between 45- and 65-billion USD. I suspect the costs of DEMO will likely be similar to that of ITER. (Planners will be more experienced, but DEMO will be even bigger, and it will require an electrical generator.) The _best-case_ scenario for this line of research is net electricity generation by 2070 for the price of $100-billion.
@@jonslg240it’s like cancer “research”. For decades, billions of dollars have gone towards finding a cure for cancer but someway, somehow they never seem to find a cure. Yet they always tell us they’ve made leaps and bounds. I feel the same is happening with this nuclear facility. They’ll spend billions so they can experiment for several decades with nothing commercial coming to market.
As someone that worked exclusively on the physics and diagnostic systems of iters tokamak, its nice to have a civil engineers perspective on the whole build
Underground might have been easier for temperature control.
@@brodriguez11000 its honestly such a large thermal gradient it dosnt matter where its built in that context. Underground would just be even more cost and tbh the main chamber it is sunk into the groud as it is
@@LeeAtkinson98 What’s your favourite part that you’ve worked on?
As someone who didn't work on tokamak, it's also nice.
@@LeeAtkinson98 I understand that it's not at all part of what you worked on, but I still would love your input on why they chose not to utilize the heat more instead of venting to the atmosphere. Sure, steam turbine generation is well studied, so not something you would get academic benefit. Still though...
Would it not have been way more efficient/beneficial to utilize that energy in some way, especially given the amount of energy (600 megawatts!) needed for this process?
Would you not have been able to reduce the strain on the grid either by generating electricity and storing it in a battery/capacitor to feed back into the system?
What about a molten salt thermal battery similar to mirror based solar generator systems?.... and then probably generate power with a steam turbine similar to mirror based solar generator systems?.... Sorry.... it all leads back to steam generation power XD
I really appreciate Grady's cautious neutrality.
To me that's what constitutes a lot of the appeal of his channel
I have no strong feelings one way or the other
Dealing with something as dangerous as nuclear power being cautious is ok with me, I think nuclear is the way to go but done cautious, safe and not rushed no matter the deadlines involved
@@hjvb6563We have a long history with nuclear. So far it has proven to be very safe. The major hurdles are political not technical. Waiting yet more generations for fusion is an excuse to do nothing in the near term.
@@timmccarthy9917 I appreciate the quote 😆
The physics and engineering in this project is insane.
Not as insane as the cost.
@@jamesrodgers3132I know right, developing cheap clean energy for less than a single day’s cost of oil utterly mind blowing.
@@jamesrodgers3132 Coal power dramatically changed mankind for the better, then oil came and revolutionized mankind yet again, then nuclear fission came and is (still) revolutionizing mankind, nuclear fusion is just the next logical thing. Oil wells, Coal mines, Steam turbines all used to be insanely expensive, they aren't anymore - if we didn't do things simply because they cost too much we'd still be living in the stone age.
yeah, its basically a world wonder of 20th and 21st century. Such engineereing would have been simply impossible 50 years ago.
@@jamesrodgers3132 Semiconductors will give it a run for it's money.
I visited the ITER site around 4 years ago, and I consider myself extremely lucky to have had the opportunity. Thanks for making this video, it was really fascinating to watch.
Star in a jar
Jar jar binks
Very small star in a very big jar
Basically
we'll make our own star with blackjack and
Nice
0:25 Grady finally admits to liking construction
Well, he just did the recent pumping station construction mini-series
"I like turtles"
The idea of 700-ton overhead cranes is crazy to me. The biggest one there is at the fabrication shop I work at is only a 15-ton and it's a monster
Twinned no less. My jaw was on my chest for far to long
9:30 LHC has an automated beam dump process that works based on perturbations in the magnetic field. However their process has to work in the span of milliseconds in order to prevent structural damage from the beam. So I was somewhat surprised that you mentioned this process took seconds for ITER, since that may actually be *too long* in the case of magnet quenching.
The time scales of a supermagnet are shockingly long. Magnetic fields soak into them like water into dirt. Turning "on" a supermagnet can take hours, as the field slowly rises to the target strength.
I'm surprised the LHC's beam isn't dumped even faster than milliseconds. I think the seconds bit is just dissipating stored energy to protect the magnets from thermal damage from current flowing in them, rather than beam/plasma containment. The plasma will not be able to be contained the instant (probably less than millisecond timescales) one of these magnets quenches, so the plasma "dump" is probably a separate process that happens much faster (likely microseconds) than the magnet-self-protect-current-dump (seconds) process.
(I don't work at ITER but this is my best guess)
ngl the idea of a multi-hour chat with Monsieur Patisson on the bearings sounds lit
Exactly what I was thinking. I'd love to see that video as well!
Very cool. Feels almost like we just might see fusion in my life.
Look at the sun. Boom you've seen fusion.
@@dace8030 your comment added a lot of value 👍
@@dace8030 what a valuable comment, I'll print it out and frame it on the wall. All my guests shall marvel at the level of intelligence.
Fusion! Just 20 years way! Fusion in 20 years! Woohoo! I am so happy about this information!
Not from this boondoggle.
I work in a temperature related field, just the scale of these components and the tolerances involved means these guys probably have procedures to stop work if temperature control goes down for x hours, and they'd probably keep it in place for up to a week depending on the outage, these scales are absolutely insane, just wow
Edit: not to mention procedures for moving parts between temperature controlled environments, letting parts just sit for x hours/days before continuing work
I find it amazing what humans can do sometimes if we just put forth the effort. Wish we would do more things like this.
fr
There's few things I love more than a collaboration between two content creators I absolutely adore
Same. But I shouldn’t have watched this in November 😅
@@communismisthefuture6503 Cant resist that plasmussy?
More than that. The subject is a collaboration between dozens of nations to make huge technical advancements that will benefit the world as a whole.
not gonna lie, i love how just the engineering and construction side of this project can deserve it's own freaking deepdive!
It's always strange to think about how things not only have to be engineered to stay in place, but also to be able to move. I'm sure the piping and electric design for those cases is well thought through also.
In the example of 50 MW thermal power in and 500MW out - that 50 MW is just a fraction of the electricity used by the whole facility: as you mentioned there are several power hungry support buildings that provide heating and cooling etc. for the whole facility so that in actuality the TOTAL INPUT while functioning will most likely exceed 500 MW, so Q total will be less than 1
Then if so, they wouldn't be giving this any attention whatsoever. Investors wouldn't fund it. I think you're exagerating tremendously.
@@GiveCreditWhereDue ruclips.net/video/JurplDfPi3U/видео.html
@@GiveCreditWhereDueno he just means for know it’s like that. But only because it’s still work in progress. If it works it will change the world forever it’s almost a free energy cheat code in real life when it happens you will hear it everywhere not just from a RUclips video. But this breakthrough just demonstrated it’s possible not really created energy already
I’ve been following ITER for like 10 years, you can see me nerding out in the comments in old videos on their page lol really excited to see what this brings to humanity!
You wont live to see it
Has ITER come any closer to delivering cheap, plentiful clean energy?
@@RumblesBettrjust 20 years from current year and we'll have it sorted.
When I looked at the problems they've got I'm honestly dubious we can ever get it working. We almost need completely new physics to overcome some of the key issues like quantum behaviours in the plasma.
@@daciandraco6462 No, not really. It is a scientific research project, not a prototype fusion power plant.
We probably will see it "running", i.e. do some demonstrations of that "50MW in 500MW out" for a couple of seconds or minutes.
But nothing like providing energy to the outside world... or showing how that could be done.
@@Rob2 so yet another mega project promising cheap energy so it gets funding from the taxpayers, with no actual practical use to the taxpayers.
French here. Thank you so much for this wonderfully crafted demonstration of the finest French English accent from Laurent. This guy must be of a supernatural competence in structural engineering to be hired in such an international project with such accent. I love this guy 😊
Honestly I couldn't understand a single word 😅 I guess he's only working with French people
@@samuelecSo weird, I could understand it all, and I'm not even a native English speaker.
French accent is the hardest to understand. If a word is the same in french and english they pronounce it in french, even in an english sentence. Is very confusing.
@@kinnoinentbh that’s true for most language pairs with cognates!
As a German who can't speak French, I had no problem understanding this Frenchie's English.
Please please please do a part 2 in more detail! This is really interesting. Just the specific technology for this project is worth an additional video.
That was a fantastic video, thank you! The innards i.e. the fusion reactor are something I have kept an eye on for years, but I never considered how you "contain" the entire setup much less something of this magnitude. You discussed a lot of the ITER complex and covered it with clear and concise explanations of many of the items from the power switching, rectification, and dissipation (I need to look into the fast discharge units, the amount of power being "dumped" fascinates me) and to the decoupling of the Tokamak structure from the rest of the building, to the anti-seismic design... and more. All in less than 20 minutes which fits nicely with my break while making bread!
It was very nice of Jade to provide an introduction to ITER and put you up to doing a video. I'll be watching hers next.
Artificial nuclear fusion power isn't "a star in a jar" it's actually far far more impressive than that.
For a given volume a star doesn't actually make that much energy. If we were to to magically recreate the fusion of our star in large building size, it would onyl be a few hundred watts to maybe a couple of KW. Stars are just unimaginably massive and burn for unimaginably long times. For fusion to ever be viable on earth we need to exceed the power density and temperatures by orders of magnitude. "Star in a jar" massively UNDERSTATES the scale of the challenge and the scale of the achievement IF we ever succeed.
Well sure, the sun isn't very dense, but it's simply a huge ball of mostly hydrogen that is so heavy that it presses down on its core hard enough to ignite fusion which continues indefinitely. We couldn't hope to build something with such low energy density; we use electromagnetism to do the squeezing and heating. Maybe one day we'll get enough energy back in order to power that electromagnetism.
We could light a giant amount of gasoline vapor and hope the blast is enough to power our car, or we could atomize that gas into an engine, ignite combustion, and drive pistons and crank in order to repeat the necessary compression in order to get decent efficiency, drive an alternator to power the spark and computer and fuel pump, and have enough leftover energy to drive that car, under controlled conditions, wherever we wish.
Only this fusion beast seems a million times more complicated, expensive, difficult, hot, dangerous, and so far impossible 😂
The power density of the sun isn't that impressive (276.5 W/m^3)
@@jamesengland7461 We already achieved net positive energy from fusion. Next experiment is making it economically viable.
Since Fusion reactors technically have unlimited fuel they can run infinitely long. But most of the time other parts of the reactor will need maintaining.
why the disrespecc for the stars? the shades? (get it? shades) smdh, we'd not be here were it not for the stars.
And it's still pie in the sky.
Fantastic. Thank you everyone on the Practical Engineering team, Jade from upandatom, the ITER team and the citizens of France.
Man, your content has always been good but I swear you're smashing it hard out the park lately!
Love it
Awesome to see the engineering side of this. So glad you are making these infrastructure videos.
"Imagine what your electricity bill would be if your toaster got as hot as the sun"? I'd rather not, I'd probably be broke immediately
Imagine what it would do to bread on the lowest setting.
I'm very pleased to see a collaboration between two of my favorite RUclips channels. Love it!
It's a treat to see Jade in one of your videos. Not a cross-over I expected, but I'm on-board. Thanks Grady!
The power of the sun, in the palm of my hand.
I just love that at the end of the day, the last part when generating energy at that scale always is "and then we make the water boil."
Such a good comment! XD All the technical prowess and great minds used to make boiling water at more efficient and insane scales. Haha, gets the mind tingling. But, the knowledge I imagine also can translate to other applications not dreamed of just yet. It really makes me hopeful.
I love how excited Laurent is about his work. I wonder if his job includes actual PR for ITER, he seemed super prepared and gregarious when explaining everything.
This is an impressive showcase of engineering just to make this experiment run. I remembered first seeing Nuclear Fusion being mentioned way back playing Simcity 2000, and it being the pre-WWW days, it was hard to get an understanding of the concepts around it. I am really tempering my expectations though and hope to see some significant breakthrough happen at least within my lifetime.
I love the collaborations. Keep up the good work!
this is the best channel on youtube. Sure there are other great ones but the vibe from Grady is so nice!
Fantastic collab and research Grady. Truly an accomplishment!
This was an absolutely fascinating video. Thank you for giving us a peek inside one of the most important projects happening in the world. This video is a highlight of your channel!
14:52 "designed to withstand plane crashes" that is true. That is a consequence of ITER being built in France, France has some of the strictest regulations regarding nuclear plants.
In my research on Germany's growing disdain towards nuclear, I found out that their politicians used the argument that their nuclear plants were vulnerable to plane attacks. Indeed, Germany's regulations are less strict regarding nuclear, and german nuclear plants were not required to withstand a plane crash.
In fairness, the stricter regulations increase the cost of building nuclear plants quite a bit.
The twin towers were designed to withstand plane crashes. WTC7 fell down and was never hit. As long as the populace can be made to believe the "19 cavemen with box cutters" story they'll believe anything. That's how we get this nonsense... and get them to pay for it.
To be honest, a plant's susceptibility to a plain attack isn't why the _German populace_ has a growing disdain towards nuclear. Personally haven't even heard that argument being made (though I don't doubt it has been made).
I'm from Germany, btw.
So much of the messaging around nuclear in Germany centered on how natural gas was the perfect interim solution until “full renewable” because its emissions at point of power production are so much lower than a traditional coal plant.
Of course, that’s only true if unburnt methane isn’t leaking at nearly every prior step of the process. Which it absolutely is.
Fission is safe, and it is imminently affordable if it’s allowed to scale. Just like wind and solar were much more expensive per unit power a few years ago, nuclear will benefit from scale if places like the US and Germany get the wool out of their collective ears.
This is extraordinary. Appreciate Laurent explaining these really awesome solutions to civil-sized problems in English 👍🏼 👍🏼
This project and the explanations provided in this video are soooo cool!
I am looking forward to fusion breakthroughs and hope they come soon
Hi Grady, great collaboration on two subjects I’m interested in. I also enjoyed watching two engineers geek out over a mind boggling project. Your channel keeps getting better!
Practical Atom meets Up and Engineering
I love it!
more colabs!
and get yourself invited to Lateral, already!
Grady has been on Lateral twice.
@@heidirabenau511 still: MOAR!
Nice work Grady (as always)!! Very interesting..
ITER is my favorite project ever since I first heard about it like 4 years ago, I hope to pay a visit to it entire its completion, and hopefully another one once it’s operating.
Awesome collaboration. Thank you so much for the edification, and helping to set realistic expectations. I'm very excited for this, even if I never get to witness it in my lifetime.
"New electricity or just boiling water?"
"Just boiling water."
its absolutely wild to me how we jump though all these hoops to get nuclear fusion working just to use it to heat up some water to spin a turbine. it seems like stone age tech to recover energy for such a futuristic concept.
I agree, is there some way to use the radiation as the prime power source ?
Wait until you find out how antimatter power would work. Yep, it's water.
@@akiraraiku Sadly no. the only radiation that could be used as direct energy would be beta radiation which is just super fast electrons but those are hard to catch in ways that actually produce energy and there are not a lot of beta radiation emitting processes and gamma radiation which is EM radiation like light or radio waves but so energetic and with such a small wavelengths that it's almost impossible to capture the way we do solar energy or radio energy transfer because the collision of the gamma rays with material damage it to such an extent when they collide at all and not just pass in between the atoms. Which is also the reason you need such dense material to shield against gamma rays.
Ultimately most energetic processes create heat as that is the energy state with the highest entropy and that we can turn some of that heat energy back into lower entropy energy using turbines is among the greatest achievements of science and engineering.
Reality is often disappointing...
Steam is the most efficient method to convert heat to electricity, upwards of 90% conversion. The most efficient solid state method, thermoelectric generators... are about 8% efficient. When size is not a concern, we use steam to get the most energy possible. When size is a concern, we use TEGs like on the Mars rover.
Great collaboration Grady, I'm already looking forward to seeing Jade's video on her tour.
Yes!! I love when two of my favorite RUclips channels collaborate! Up And Atom is such a great channel, and I've watch sooo many Practical Engineering videos!! You two are amazing and this was a great video!!!
Redundant lifts? That's some insane level of caution. Can't wait to see this come online!
I don't think they are fully redundant. They seem to share a track, and for some loads they need to work in tandom. Depending on how or where a lift stops working could block the second unit from a full range of motion.
''...come online...'' You OBVIOUSLY didn't watch the video.........................
@@jimihendrix991 The obviously did watch the video, seeing as they mentioned the lifts. The reactor isn't operational yet, and they're excited for when it will be. That's what "come online" means in this context. What did you think it meant?
@@RowanHawkins It's also much easier to keep everything level and in the right position when you have more anchor points. Anything to avoid bumping things into each other is a good idea with this.
@@notnullnotvoid ITER's stated purpose is scientific research, and technological demonstration of a large fusion reactor, without electricity generation. Thus, 'come online' to do what?
Starting college in 1963, I first learned about the Tokamak (toroidal), the Russian method for sealing the magnetic plasma bottle through the simple expedient of having no ends. My text book said we expected commercial fusion power in ... 1983. Hmmm... Without super computers...mostly without computers...no one knew how devilishly complicated it would be to actually confine the plasma for a significant time. The plasma torus writhed like the Hydra on ever finer scales as one fixed first this then that. And so the years went on...
The Iter project is also waaaay slower than it would be if a single or consortium of few companies managed it. Sometimes they wait months because some country failed to deliver their part through whatever economic or political consternation caused it. You can imagine what that does to the schedule. Iter is a committee project.
Nevertheless, I have high hopes that come 2030/35 they are marching upwards in thermal output. It is easy to get a few neutrons out of a plasma...fusion. I first saw that happen in 1964. I mean some real power.
However, if power companies are fearful of the economics of fission plants, I doubt any will step forward for Super Tokamak. It would need to be a pride and employment project of a large and techie country.
I'd reccommend looking into the National Ignition Facility if you're interested in fusion. They've achieved net positive energy with inertial confinement already and their researchers have done many publicly available talks on how they managed to achieve it from the use of neural networks to how they programmed their diagnostics systems to how they found a use for diamonds they'd buy that wouldn't quite be good enough for their big main attempts.
IMO the risk averse factor is very high outside of the non-nuke traditional power plant plans. IIRC there was a plan for a new style of nuke power plant with isolated mini salted nuke power plant, but that got canned by the partnered US grid company, in proxy...
fusion is fake anyway... and they say lies from beginning to end... they have Zero way to know how temperatures and numbers they throw out like its fact... ALL FakE based on lies NOT science
well, confining the plasma is one thing that is now quite resolved. The work on ITER is mainly to get a Q factor well above 1 and be finally able to produce electricity with a tokamak.
Maybe the private sector could have made it quicker, but it would have been non profitable (and not megalomaniac enough for guys like Bezos or Musk to want to invest in or even hype it) and, more importantly, as humanity we can't allow greedy private entities getting some patents above that tech.
I see your critizism about it being a committee project, and how it would be better be done by private sector. The thing is, it would never have been done by private sector. Private sector is not in the business of exploring science if there is not an expectation of profit in a reasonable time scale. Private sector will come in and quickly create working powerplants once the science and engineering is prooven. When there is no quickly available return on investment science has been and always will be driven by governments, which means comittee projects and red tape.
Incredible video, loved the unique style and collaborations on this episode.
Interesting perspective on a topic which doesn't get much attention on the backend behind these huge scientific endeavours.
Two creators I love, glad to see you collaborating!
The technology, engineering and construction is awe inspiring. Im getting less and less "sold" on tokamak systems, mainly due to degradation and contamination effects of being exposed to long term exposure to neutron flux and high temp plasma, makes me a bit more skeptical of this route.
Regardless of it its the route we end up taking, ots crazy impressive.
Agreed. There are unanswered questions about what is going to be the best plasma-facing material(s) and what to do when they degrade. The human race collectively is going to need to come to terms with generating certain amounts of radioactive waste and containing it appropriately. No (currently known) way around it while also sustainably producing enough electricity to meet demand.
@@erikdietrich2678plenty of people are thinking about that! From proposing smaller tritium-breeder reactors separate from power-generating reactors, to those suggesting we’ll never get large-scale D-T fusion due to the neutrons so they think we’d have to wait for He3 to be economically viable. (Which would need much denser pressures to run; so researching with D-D and then D-T, exactly as Iter will be doing, would still be useful for getting to that point.)
Fusion energy seems to turn out so expensive that it won't be able to compete with other types of generation.
Still won't stop lobby groups from asking for many more billions in funding. And just like with solar roadways, they will always find politicians willing to dump taxpayers' money into their pockets.
I'd give it a chance before we come to that conclusion. ITER is an over engineered experimental research facility, so it's not going to be representative of the true cost of future commercial fusion. It's also not the only game in town, there might be cheaper alternatives.
@Croz89 people have been giving it chances for a century now. Every time it fails to deliver, we get excuses like the one above about ITER. They all promise practical applications for the taxpayer to get the funding, then they all turn into experimental endeavours with no use to the wider public who funded these mega projects.
I mean, even Fission energy isn't really competitive IF the companies running the reactors would ACTUALLY have to pay when stuff goes sideways.
Do yourself a favor and _really_ dig into their insurance regulations and how much _they_ have to pay in case of any kind of emergency. And also, how much your local government would have to pay... And of course, how much governmental subsidies go into both the building and operation of a nuclear powerplant.
Wind, solar and hydro power is feasible, it just suffers from not having the same lobby power :(
@@cy-one Insuring extremely rare but extremely expensive events is always difficult. Other forms of power generation will generate insurance claims of a lower value more frequently (apart from hydro which can be even more catastrophic than nuclear), which is easier to insure. This is why many countries still have disaster relief funds because rare but catastrophic events, of any kind, are unlikely to be adequately insured. It's not that nuclear would have unaffordable premiums if it was fully insured, it's more you'd need to pool risk globally and you'd need to hold on to hundreds of billions somewhere, and insurance companies are just not set up for that.
Also I find it amusing you think solar, wind and hydro don't have the same lobby power, when nuclear has been on the decline in the west for decades due in part to poor public perception. So clearly all that lobbying isn't working too well. Hydro has its own problems, and solar and wind worked best when cheap natural gas could balance their intermittent output. But in Europe gas is no longer cheap so that's why there is renewed interest in nuclear.
Thank you for sharing with a civil engineer eyes this magnificent project!
This is a fantastic introduction to an incredible project. I cannot wait to see the results of their experiments.
There won’t be any results. It ain’t gona work
We already worked out how to do a Thorium molten salt reactor 70 years ago and then just abandoned the technology (probably because it doesn't create material for nuclear weapons). We could have been enjoying clean, plentiful, cheap energy all these years. Fusion is always just another 30 years away.
As a molten salt reactor guy... This is wrong. We found the math, built reactors, found out we were missing some and the reactors didn't work how we expected, built new reactors.
That's the "always thirty years away" part. But recently, the math started being correct. It has been known for some time that this is what's needed to attain fusion.
The "thirty years away" fallacy assumes that our estimations never get any better, and confuses past challenges, which were related to the physics (not knowing what a functional fusion reactor would look like or how it would work) to modern challenges, which are merely organizational (knowing exactly what a fusion reactor looks like, but discovering it looks like a megaproject of truly ludicrous scope and scale)
In summary, fusion power has been thirty years away for sixty years, but for the last twenty years, it has only been ten years away.
The progress made is slow, but doesn't really take away resources that would have gone to building nuclear reactors anyways, so where's the harm?
If Tony Stark can build it in a cave with a box of scraps then I don’t see why this is taking so long.
When Thano can click a finger and kill half of the universe, why bother?
What a great couple of videos this series is. So good Grady. Impressive.
I’ve been a proponent of nuclear fusion literally for decades. It’s fantastic that perhaps in my lifetime, I’ll see it come to fruition.
As to biases in news reporting that’s a given. No matter how much someone tries to be non biased it will always creep in. I do it, we do it, even you do it. I have noticed you try to be factual but sometimes my biased ears hear otherwise.
Love the content and the presentation!
It makes me smile, the first prototype fusion reactor being built to heat up liquid and turn it into steam.
In other words, a very, very complex tea kettle. 😹
And funnier still, if the Tokamak works a described, we as species, still be in the "Steam" age as our main energy production.
If your energy source is heat, you don't have very many options for how to extract large amounts of useful power from it. Water/steam happens to be a cheap and efficient way of doing it. That's why we continue to use it.
Yeah, the tokamak is really "just" a fancy oven.
And yet, it's one of the biggest hopes for making long-term human civilization possible on this planet.
@@helgefan8994 I just checked. The knob on my fancy oven doesn't go to 150 million C.
@@stargazer7644 Get a better oven, mate :D
I get so jaded when fusion it brought up. When it finally works in the next gen ITER project 50 years from now, you still need fusion fuel. Unless a miracle of physics is discovered we have to boil out deuterium from seawater using more energy than fusion can ever generate
Just another Tech/Enviro scam. It's just far more offensive when they're funded by taxes instead of naive retail investors.
It's really cool to actually hear from the person who lived and breathed the hard problems for the length of the project.
The thing I love most about this video specifically looking at the civil engineering aspects is that it highlights the benefits of these kind of world-building projects on fields well beyond just particle physics and energy generation. It's like the sorts of things that have come out of NASA that have applications way beyond space travel. Imagine the benefits to having buildings in earthquake-prone areas to have such a foundation construction as this and the lives that would benefit/save.
I would've loved to hear more about the problems and solutions Laurent was talking about, of stacking of tolerances between ginormous precision parts and ginormous construction.
He was basically the equivalent of a scientist on a CNBC video: a foreign accent implies knowledge but actually only talks like a broken record about how special it is. To be fair he may have had bad questions.
@@joshlund1861I think that might be partly down to avoiding industry jargon, it can make things seem a little overly simplified.
8:27 If my toaster got as hot as the sun, I don't think there would be any toast left. Nor would I have a house to eat it in :(
The best most complete description yet! Thanks!
I'm just so happy to see you talk about anything in france :) thank you for that really good video!
Fusion's also popular for research because of the ban on nuclear testing. Can't really replicate the conditions inside an h-bomb without facilities like the national ignition facility.
Whatever happens with it in the end, this is still an incredible engineering project. I've never dealt with something where the CTE of concrete was relevant.
And an incredible waste of money
@@jamesrodgers3132Many incredible innovations required a ludicrous amount of money and manpower for iffy reasons.
I remember seeing that one NOVA episode about this years ago about this. I’ve been fascinated ever since and was so happy to see you covering ITER!
Really cool. Would love to see more deep dives into mega projects like this!
I was not expecting an Aussie accent. It's really cool to see our own scientists working on something of this scale and importance. Onya, Jade :)
She doesn't work on it, she's a content creator like Grady.
I don't know why but watching smart people explain their work passionately is so satisfying
I concur.
Long time fan of upandatom. Thanks for this cross over!
3:42 IN THE PALM OF MY HAND
I love enormous, ridiculous projects like this for so many reasons. But the biggest is because it makes me so hopeful for the future of our species. Just as computers went from building-size boxes that could add a few numbers to supercomputers in our pockets, so, too, will fusion reactors have their "transistor moment" in history. But it will require that we set aside our trivial differences and unify of our collective brainpower to make it happen.
"Enormous and ridiculous project" should be the slogan of this endeavour. Added to the classic "fusion energy is always 30 years away".
unless experiments of this scale and expense are never allowed to fail and stop because of what nations have given up financially to conduct it....
@@Crabman_87 sunk cost fallacy on a grand scale.
@@daciandraco6462 it really isn't. We know the theory and have made proof of concept for many decades by now. ITER is just an engineering experiment, like we did plenty of times before on every technology. The issue here is that to be a viable source of energy nuclear fusion requires a large infrastructure that no nation could realistically afford by itself.
@@PainterVierax again, that is different to how these projects are presented when government starts pouring billions of taxpayers' money into them. There is a very clear stated goal for these: we take billions of your tax money, wait for 10-20 years, you'll get cheap clean energy in return.
This has been the deal for the past 100 years. Nuclear fusion was always meant to offer clean energy to the end consumer. So far, most of these projects have turned out to be bait and switches. "Oh, you got this all wrong, this wasn't the project to offer you clean energy, this was just research. The next one will give you that energy."
The mega mega breaktrhough announced last December by the US Energy Department got a lor of press for being a "2 units in, 3 out" revolution. A few weeks later, the administration and media came clean, admitting that it had been 300 units in, 3 out.
Now, if you're saying that this isn't a technology that works solely in theory and just needs several countries to pump money together into it to make it viable, I think it defeats the whole purpose of offering the end consumer any form of affordable energy, as promised.
I'm so ready for the Practical Construction videos on this project ;) They'll let you fly a drone there, right?
Grady, I would watch any video that you put out that's even tangentially related to construction. I've enjoyed the railroad series and the practical construction (lift station) series. Thank you so much!
UP AND ATOM!! Wow I never imagined such a Collab :D Legit two RUclipsrs I genuinely enjoy
Haven't even made it a minute in, and I'm already ecstatic to learn!
I can't believe we're attempting to create a tiny sun and in the end we're just going to use it in a steam heat exchanger.
It's the most efficient way with the technology we have. Thermophotovoltaic cells do exist, but they're not yet anywhere near efficient as a turbine.
@@timramich I imagine it is, but it's funny to me. It's like making a modern eletric engine and putting it on wheels from the 50s.
more than that actually. the sun isnt hot enough to get the power output per volume we need. the suns core outputs fusion energy the equivalent of and incandescent lightbulb. the sun can do fusion at such a low temperature and not collapse with such low output because of its size. the density allows incredibly rare fusion events in pure hydrogen to happen which enables a chain of other reactions that output energy and then the immense size of the sun multiplies that tiny output over a huge volume and limits the rate the energy can escape due to the low surface area relative to the huge volume.
in a fusion reactor we dont have the benefit of that density and size so we have to enable the energy outputting fusion reactions directly and at a high rate. which means we need to heat the plasma much much hotter than the core of the sun.
@@jklm011 Not really, also steam turbines themselves and power generators have evolved since their inception. If you want to make a comparison it's like building a train, the principle of steel wheels on rails has not changed in 200 years, but manufacturing and engines have evolved significantly.
@@EvelynNdenial100W/m^2 is supposedly the average at sea level (about 90% goes into heating up the atmosphere so it's about 1kW at the Karman line) though that varies a fair bit depending on latitude and cloud cover.
I love this crossover. Grady and Jade are two of my faves.
Fantastic Grady, Thank you !!
It’s crazy how much thought, money and expertise has flown in to this project.
But at that point.. just give me some solar-panels and a battery and call it a day 😂
Lol true
I know it’s a science experiment, but it’s crazy to me that they don’t plan on making and power with such an amazing piece of equipment!
They’ll only be running the plant intermittently. I doubt it would be worth the additional complexity of adding generation capability given it won’t pay its own bills.
What a huge waste. I wonder what will happen to this multi billion euro project once they figure out what they want to know.
@@j.t.johnston3048 they will push it harder and test more ideas to try and gain even more experience with the reactors
and once it can do no more it will be taken apart in tens of years
which isn't surprising as the plant is only rated for 500MW while a real fussion plant would likely be in the GW range
@@j.t.johnston3048 It is designed for experiments that run up to 10 minutes at a time, initially probably more like 10 seconds.
While 500MW is quite a lot of power, the energy released during one experiment is at most 80MWh which is not a lot in terms of power plants.
It would not be more useful than solar panels on the roof of the building.
thank you for sharing this. iter is very cool and deserves more publicity.
Very well put together video, accessible and interesting. It is clear why they cooperated with you 👍
Ok but wait: if both the reqctor and the building itself are decoupled to allow movement, how did they solve all the pipes for heating and cooling?
If you combine possible movement of the tokamak, building and thermal expansion, were talking about literal meters of movement?!
Not to mention the possible pressure and temperature ranges of the pipes, a rubber hose isn't gonna cut it
The French guy is exactly what I think about when I think about a French guy
Thanks so much for sharing this fascinating content!!
This is probably one of the best videos on Iter, and at 700k is incredibly underrated