Thanks Dean. You are such a fantastic resource for learning. Just getting started with a Levin watchmaker lathe and your two presentations have been absolutely fantastic. Not sure how I would have had any chance without your generous help
Dean something that may help you, after hardening try tempering the graver by placing it in a 425 degree oven for 15-30 minutes then allow to slowly cool. This process relieves the stresses in the steel caused by the hardening process.
I had to laugh at the guy who call's himself the Village Clockmaker on RUclips when he say's you can't turn pivot steel or as I call it blue steel, I put a comment on his video saying that I am an old Watchmaker and that if he can't turn blue steel with a graver he should go back and learn how to sharpen his graver, I hope he watches your excellent video on sharpening a graver. If your graver is sharpened correctly, your T rest is firm and in the correct position your center height is correct and the lathe is running at the right speed not to fast as a lot of Watchmakers make this mistake, you can turn blue steel as easily as turning brass. I have watched some Watchmakers on RUclips turning and the noise of their graver and motor is enough to set your teeth on edge. From a nearly 80 year old WATCHMAKER who has turned up literally hundreds of staffs and cylinders in his life. Keep up the good work.
I only 75...but in the early 1900's they invented a thing called High Speed Steel.....in the 1920's they invented a thing called carbide....thie is not much excuse for someone ''today'' using carbon steel....is there?
@@ralphedman7753 There actually aren't a ton of materials that don't have any use anymore. Even if things got pushed out of being the standard, they still have their place. Hss is super useful to keep around, it isn't as brittle as carbide, can be sharpened to a keener edge, etc. O1 and the like can be sharpened even keener without chipping out even if the edge life is short, can be quite easily heated and bent and rehardened in a small shop or you can have just a hard edge and a soft body.
Excellent explanation, and excellent video quality. You are providing a great service to more people than you know. Thank you, and greetings from Pennsylvania!
8.50 it's an Arkansas stone, although for the very last finish I use a Degussit stone. The graver is of course hardened and tempered to a deep straw colour which will cut most things horological.
Absolutely very useful! Keep it up! I am studying watchmaking in evening class. Focus is on maintenance and repair. But the fancy stuff like finishing or even using a lathe isn't taught. That's for self study for those passionate enough 😊. I recently bought an 8mm Lorch lathe and I'll have to learn how to use it, figure out what all the accessories are for etc. Your videos will be extremely useful. Thanks! Greetz from Belgium
Steve Koll Thank you! I am glad you found it useful. I plan on uploading a new video every week. I hope they help you on your watchmaking journey. Cheers!
Hi Dean, I just got a 2mm graver with handle off of ebay, but when it came I discovered that the handle is just a regular pin vise, and won't accomodate a graver longer than 2 inches..... do you know of any places I could get a proper graver handle that will accept full length blanks?
Using the sharpening tool, the stone wears in the center fairly quickly. You can dress the stone by oiling and rubbing it on a cheap HF type diamond plated plate and watching the grove in the center shrink to nothing. Great for refinishing yard sale stones.
You are at least 50 years out of date. When I began my journey 50+ years ago, my mentor only used, and knew about, high carbon steel and some silly file handles for the graver. Within 3 years I talked with machinists and found out what they were using , carbide and High Speed Steel. I chose High Speed Steel and have never gone back to high carbon steel. HSS holds it's cutting edge about 3 times longer than steel and can be easier and faster to sharpen. I hollow grind (concave) the diamond on the circumference of a 6''diameter stone, and sharpen / hone on flat stones. Only 2 of the edges make contact with stone at the same time and much faster to re-sharpen as well. I also make my own handles, they are similar to a screwdriver handle, straight shank for the lower part and hour glass shape for the upper part, where your thumb and index finger hold the graver. All the dimentions are custom made to my hand but easy enough to make on a lathe.
Carbon steel for hand engraving is much better than HSS, HSS was developed for mass turning operations before Carbide inserts became popular...Carbon steel will provide greater hardness to HSS and thus be able to provide for greater sharpness
Some of this you'll likely know Dean but others may not. The Bergeon tool would be I suppose a traditional way. But very much related to sharpening and now a not very well known tool at all would be one used by Ornamental Turners called a goniostat. Google images using that name will turn up lots of pictures. Anyone owning a lathe or wanting to sharpen something like these gravers should at least understand how those goniostat's worked. They can sharpen either a single angle but also compound angles. Unlike that Bergeon tool almost all of the stone surface can then be used so your not wearing grooves in the center of the stone and then having to re-flatten it. Building a modern version of one of those goniostats and using a couple of small plastic drafting protractors or the better laser engraved metal ones wouldn't be hard. Originals can still be found, but always at high prices the collectors are willing to pay. In use the 3 legs of the goniostat can be slid back and forth on a sheet of glass with the stone surface sitting in step below the glass but still leveled to the glass elevation to keep the angles accurate. It's a very good system for putting a final ultra sharp and accurate hone on a tool. Lathe 55 or 60 degree threading tools for example. The tiny radius at the tip would still need to be done by hand of course. Diamond wheels for example unless there run at very slow speeds are not recommended for sharpening HSS or high carbon steels since the carbon composition of the metal and the heat generated can quickly destroy the diamond particles. CBN wheels are the recommend wheel for that. However using diamond plated laps just like in this video at those slow hand speeds the now common diamond so called "lapping plates" sold at woodworking dealers and made by DMT and a few others can also be used this way. There about the cheapest way I know of for re-sharpening carbide but also HSS and high carbon if required. Any man made or natural stone used for sharpening will ultimately get grooved, load up, and get glazed just like bench grinder wheels. For that reason those DMT lapping plates can also be used to both re-flatten a grooved stone and remove that glazed surface so it then will cut as well as a new one.
Have been working with a 45 degree lozenge graver but will experiment with a 30 degree one. Some also recommend "beveling" the cutting edges which, in effect, changes the rake. What do you think? Thanks.
+douglasskinner That's great to hear that you have been working on hand turning. You will notice how much 'softer' you will have to be as you angle decreases and the tip more fragile. But some jobs require this to get into tight spaces. I have not read or seen this technique being done. But thinking about it, I believe you would have to adjust your graver angle to present the cutting edge to the work, instead of resting the graver flat on the t rest when turning diamond down. I am unsure about any benefits the bevel on the edge would bring.
Hi Ian, you are lucky there are many shops around you. I purchased mine from cousins uk, there is another company eternal tools. You can also buy from places where frodillicus mentioned also. Hope it helps 😁
Hello. I purchase these gravers from Cousinsuk. They ship internationally, I think they currently have the best online shop of all material supply houses.
I just bought a Boley lathe, which i didn't follow any of your lathe buying tips ... simply cuz i bought it b4 i seen your vid... anyway im trying o make my own graver, and was wondering what is a good source for the metal? thx Mat
I also have a Vallorbe Carbon Steel Graver (Lozenge 2mm) which I have tried to use to cut balance hubs for restaffing. However, the graver does not seem to "cut" at all. There is no strip of metal cut off as I would expect but rather almost nothing seems to be removed. Even after resharpening the graver several times, I cannot seem to actually be able to cut any metal. Any tips? I am not sure why this is happening but it very frustrating! Am I simply running the lathe too fast (as I have read doing so simply burnishes the metal rather than cutting it) and need to try with a new practice balance in which the metal has not been hardened/burnished and spin it slower? PS: Keep up the amazing watchmaking work! One of the best watch channels on RUclips
if you don't mind me asking how do you even usethose ebay gravers lol ,wasted my time and money bought a set thinking they were ,and I cant even put a line in my metal with them .Use them now for wax craving .
I have seen it done, you just have to be super careful with temperature management as you don’t want to temper the steel too soft by accident as the commenter above mentioned
@@DeanDK Ah - OK. Thanks for the reply. I wondered mainly because it seems like a lot of grinding on a stone to get the initial shape, but I guess it's so small that it isn't a problem. I am giving some W1 tool steel a shot in anticipation of making more complex shapes more easily. It looks like it should be tempered from what I've seen elsewhere.
Yes if you are using W1 Tool Steel it should be harden and tempered slightly to like a straw yellow colour.. Vallorbe already come with the diamond shape ground and tempered. Just needs honing, and if the tool chips, re ground on the stone by hand. Because it’s by hand it won’t heat up and lose its hardness
Hi sir I want 2mm as glardon fish 🐟 mark vallorbe Swiss made 2mm tool plzzzzz help me waiting for ur reply sir plz seller address or any link plzzz send me
+elijah williams These tool steels cut really well, and you can have a very fine sharp point which won't chip as easily as a carbide. However, carbide does have its advantages. But for brass especially I will choose tool steel over carbide.
It's Arkansas, as he puts in print on the screen. I guess the Brits pronounce it differently, like "R-kansas" instead of the American way which is like "R-can-saw" with the final S silent. It's ridiculous that we have a state that we call "Kansas", and then, almost touching it, a state we call "R-can-saw", but there it is.
@@DeanDK Arkansas stones can be used with water or oil, if you use water you need to use much more than you do oil, I was trying to make the point not to use 3in one it is horrible stuff, leaves behind a residue and almost impossible to remove.
Use diamond abrasives! I've seen some instructions where a small diamond abrasive wheel is spun in the lathe, so the lathe is used to sharpen your graver. I haven't done this, but have used flat diamond sharpening "stones".
Thanks Dean. You are such a fantastic resource for learning. Just getting started with a Levin watchmaker lathe and your two presentations have been absolutely fantastic. Not sure how I would have had any chance without your generous help
This september i will start my study to become a watchmaker. Videos like the ones you make help me a lot. Thank you.
ruclips.net/video/vyICo56IH8g/видео.html
Dean something that may help you, after hardening try tempering the graver by placing it in a 425 degree oven for 15-30 minutes then allow to slowly cool. This process relieves the stresses in the steel caused by the hardening process.
I had to laugh at the guy who call's himself the Village Clockmaker on RUclips when he say's you can't turn pivot steel or as I call it blue steel, I put a comment on his video saying that I am an old Watchmaker and that if he can't turn blue steel with a graver he should go back and learn how to sharpen his graver, I hope he watches your excellent video on sharpening a graver. If your graver is sharpened correctly, your T rest is firm and in the correct position your center height is correct and the lathe is running at the right speed not to fast as a lot of Watchmakers make this mistake, you can turn blue steel as easily as turning brass. I have watched some Watchmakers on RUclips turning and the noise of their graver and motor is enough to set your teeth on edge. From a nearly 80 year old WATCHMAKER who has turned up literally hundreds of staffs and cylinders in his life. Keep up the good work.
Thank you so much Keith. Your comment means a lot :)
I only 75...but in the early 1900's they invented a thing called High Speed Steel.....in the 1920's they invented a thing called carbide....thie is not much excuse for someone ''today'' using carbon steel....is there?
@@ralphedman7753
There actually aren't a ton of materials that don't have any use anymore. Even if things got pushed out of being the standard, they still have their place. Hss is super useful to keep around, it isn't as brittle as carbide, can be sharpened to a keener edge, etc. O1 and the like can be sharpened even keener without chipping out even if the edge life is short, can be quite easily heated and bent and rehardened in a small shop or you can have just a hard edge and a soft body.
Excellent explanation, and excellent video quality. You are providing a great service to more people than you know. Thank you, and greetings from Pennsylvania!
Thanks for you kind words much appreciated!
8.50 it's an Arkansas stone, although for the very last finish I use a Degussit stone. The graver is of course hardened and tempered to a deep straw colour which will cut most things horological.
Absolutely very useful! Keep it up! I am studying watchmaking in evening class. Focus is on maintenance and repair. But the fancy stuff like finishing or even using a lathe isn't taught. That's for self study for those passionate enough 😊. I recently bought an 8mm Lorch lathe and I'll have to learn how to use it, figure out what all the accessories are for etc. Your videos will be extremely useful. Thanks! Greetz from Belgium
Steve Koll Thank you! I am glad you found it useful. I plan on uploading a new video every week. I hope they help you on your watchmaking journey. Cheers!
I've been looking all over for this info. By far the best video on this topic. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks Deemstyle. Glad you like it!
i really wouldnt get used to graver sharperners just get used to doing it by hand and feeling the flatness
Dean - it would be super useful to have liks to the soures for gravers, and other tools in the description of the video
Excellent instructional video. Keep them posted!
Great advice. Thank you.
Thank you, great video, very well explained.
I am learning on my IME Watchmakers lathe.
Thanks for you feedback Noel, I am glad you enjoyed it and learning on your IME lathe. Keep up your work!
Hi Dean, I just got a 2mm graver with handle off of ebay, but when it came I discovered that the handle is just a regular pin vise, and won't accomodate a graver longer than 2 inches..... do you know of any places I could get a proper graver handle that will accept full length blanks?
I know this is pretty old but is it possible to use normal water whetstones instead of the india stone?
Using the sharpening tool, the stone wears in the center fairly quickly. You can dress the stone by oiling and rubbing it on a cheap HF type diamond plated plate and watching the grove in the center shrink to nothing. Great for refinishing yard sale stones.
Is Vaseline petroleum jelly a good source for curing stones?
So I wonder, why exactly is it important that the diamond shape is perfect?
And are you supposed to turn with the diamond shape down, or up?
really well made video. very useful thank you.
Keith Brister You're welcome Keith and a thank you for the feedback. it is much appreciated.
Hi
Do you know where to buy the 2 mm vallorbe Gravers
Have a nice day
Allan
How do you what angle the graver sits at when setting it in the tool holder? Are you simply eyeballing it?
Yes, once you do have sharpened and used the graver many times over you get a feel of which angle works best for you.
Great video Dean, keep it up!
The Joy of Precision Thanks for the encouragement :) All the best for 2017!
Watch both channels. Very good!
You are at least 50 years out of date. When I began my journey 50+ years ago, my mentor only used, and knew about, high carbon steel and some silly file handles for the graver. Within 3 years I talked with machinists and found out what they were using , carbide and High Speed Steel. I chose High Speed Steel and have never gone back to high carbon steel.
HSS holds it's cutting edge about 3 times longer than steel and can be easier and faster to sharpen. I hollow grind (concave) the diamond on the circumference of a 6''diameter stone, and sharpen / hone on flat stones. Only 2 of the edges make contact with stone at the same time and much faster to re-sharpen as well.
I also make my own handles, they are similar to a screwdriver handle, straight shank for the lower part and hour glass shape for the upper part, where your thumb and index finger hold the graver. All the dimentions are custom made to my hand but easy enough to make on a lathe.
do you advise using HSS without carbon? would these be fine? www.ebay.com/itm/324504356526
Carbon steel for hand engraving is much better than HSS, HSS was developed for mass turning operations before Carbide inserts became popular...Carbon steel will provide greater hardness to HSS and thus be able to provide for greater sharpness
Excellent! Thank you.
+Berry J. Greene Thank you for watching :)
Some of this you'll likely know Dean but others may not.
The Bergeon tool would be I suppose a traditional way. But very much related to sharpening and now a not very well known tool at all would be one used by Ornamental Turners called a goniostat. Google images using that name will turn up lots of pictures. Anyone owning a lathe or wanting to sharpen something like these gravers should at least understand how those goniostat's worked. They can sharpen either a single angle but also compound angles. Unlike that Bergeon tool almost all of the stone surface can then be used so your not wearing grooves in the center of the stone and then having to re-flatten it. Building a modern version of one of those goniostats and using a couple of small plastic drafting protractors or the better laser engraved metal ones wouldn't be hard. Originals can still be found, but always at high prices the collectors are willing to pay. In use the 3 legs of the goniostat can be slid back and forth on a sheet of glass with the stone surface sitting in step below the glass but still leveled to the glass elevation to keep the angles accurate. It's a very good system for putting a final ultra sharp and accurate hone on a tool. Lathe 55 or 60 degree threading tools for example. The tiny radius at the tip would still need to be done by hand of course.
Diamond wheels for example unless there run at very slow speeds are not recommended for sharpening HSS or high carbon steels since the carbon composition of the metal and the heat generated can quickly destroy the diamond particles. CBN wheels are the recommend wheel for that. However using diamond plated laps just like in this video at those slow hand speeds the now common diamond so called "lapping plates" sold at woodworking dealers and made by DMT and a few others can also be used this way. There about the cheapest way I know of for re-sharpening carbide but also HSS and high carbon if required. Any man made or natural stone used for sharpening will ultimately get grooved, load up, and get glazed just like bench grinder wheels. For that reason those DMT lapping plates can also be used to both re-flatten a grooved stone and remove that glazed surface so it then will cut as well as a new one.
Great video! Thanks for sharing!
+Balogh Szabolcs Thank you for your feedback. I am glad you enjoyed it.
Have been working with a 45 degree lozenge graver but will experiment with a 30 degree one. Some also recommend "beveling" the cutting edges which, in effect, changes the rake. What do you think? Thanks.
+douglasskinner That's great to hear that you have been working on hand turning. You will notice how much 'softer' you will have to be as you angle decreases and the tip more fragile. But some jobs require this to get into tight spaces.
I have not read or seen this technique being done. But thinking about it, I believe you would have to adjust your graver angle to present the cutting edge to the work, instead of resting the graver flat on the t rest when turning diamond down.
I am unsure about any benefits the bevel on the edge would bring.
thanks for the great video! does the bergeon tool have degrees on it so that you can sharpen at 45 degrees etc. or do you use another method? thanks!
Hi Dean where can you purchase the gravers in The Uk. Best wishes Ian
EBay, also cooksongold, seriously, 5 seconds on Google will tell you.
Hi Ian, you are lucky there are many shops around you. I purchased mine from cousins uk, there is another company eternal tools. You can also buy from places where frodillicus mentioned also. Hope it helps 😁
thank you Dean best wishes Ian
How much is that like gravers? I need that like gravers ,but in my country is very difficult to find it...
I buy from Cousinsuk they ship international
Greetings. may I ask where you purchase these gravers from?
Hello. I purchase these gravers from Cousinsuk. They ship internationally, I think they currently have the best online shop of all material supply houses.
Thank you Dean!
May I know the Graver is made by tool steel or high speed steel?
What is the metal of the drilling tools in which you work
Salem je veux savoir de ou acheté tous le matériel le peyi us ou italien ou chinois
Where did you get the pin vices? Not going to lie Dean. I love that peerless lathe and particularly the tailstock!
I just bought a Boley lathe, which i didn't follow any of your lathe buying tips ... simply cuz i bought it b4 i seen your vid... anyway im trying o make my own graver, and was wondering what is a good source for the metal?
thx
Mat
+MeDI NaKHLA Thanka for your question. I use Vallorbe Carbon Steel gravers from cousinsuk. I also have the bergeon graver which is sintered carbide.
I also have a Vallorbe Carbon Steel Graver (Lozenge 2mm) which I have tried to use to cut balance hubs for restaffing. However, the graver does not seem to "cut" at all. There is no strip of metal cut off as I would expect but rather almost nothing seems to be removed. Even after resharpening the graver several times, I cannot seem to actually be able to cut any metal. Any tips? I am not sure why this is happening but it very frustrating! Am I simply running the lathe too fast (as I have read doing so simply burnishes the metal rather than cutting it) and need to try with a new practice balance in which the metal has not been hardened/burnished and spin it slower?
PS: Keep up the amazing watchmaking work! One of the best watch channels on RUclips
if you don't mind me asking how do you even usethose ebay gravers lol ,wasted my time and money bought a set thinking they were ,and I cant even put a line in my metal with them .Use them now for wax craving .
I believe they are for hand engraving onto metal. Hand Push Method. Yes, it is unfortunate they are always advertised a misleading way.
I want to buy these tools
I want buy these tools
Can you sharpen the graver by grinding maching?
No, grinders cause too much heat damaging the temper and making it too soft to work with.
I have seen it done, you just have to be super careful with temperature management as you don’t want to temper the steel too soft by accident as the commenter above mentioned
you should of mentioned about stone dressing.
Dean, thank you for the great content!
Do you use these directly after quenching or do you temper them?
Thanks for your comment. I purchase these ready to go, not heat treating is required.
@@DeanDK Ah - OK. Thanks for the reply. I wondered mainly because it seems like a lot of grinding on a stone to get the initial shape, but I guess it's so small that it isn't a problem.
I am giving some W1 tool steel a shot in anticipation of making more complex shapes more easily. It looks like it should be tempered from what I've seen elsewhere.
Yes if you are using W1 Tool Steel it should be harden and tempered slightly to like a straw yellow colour.. Vallorbe already come with the diamond shape ground and tempered. Just needs honing, and if the tool chips, re ground on the stone by hand. Because it’s by hand it won’t heat up and lose its hardness
Which you are in a year in order to become able to drill into the metal
Hi sir I want 2mm as glardon fish 🐟 mark vallorbe Swiss made 2mm tool plzzzzz help me waiting for ur reply sir plz seller address or any link plzzz send me
I need it
Grate video but why not just use carbide?
+elijah williams These tool steels cut really well, and you can have a very fine sharp point which won't chip as easily as a carbide. However, carbide does have its advantages. But for brass especially I will choose tool steel over carbide.
thanks
You're Welcome! I've been caught up, but stay tuned for next week another video is coming!
How can bay this?
what's a Kansas stone?
It's Arkansas, as he puts in print on the screen. I guess the Brits pronounce it differently, like "R-kansas" instead of the American way which is like "R-can-saw" with the final S silent. It's ridiculous that we have a state that we call "Kansas", and then, almost touching it, a state we call "R-can-saw", but there it is.
I use 33 degree and 43 degree 。
구매는어떻게할수나요
Just because I need to be the pedantic dbag: Arkansas (/ˈɑːrkənsɔː/ AR-kən-saw)
Great videos though, I'm loving the process!
LMAO! thank you, I will now not pronounce incorrectly. It seems butchering them is a thing of mine! :D Cheers I am glad you enjoy them Shane
@@DeanDK unless your from Kansas!! 😂 then you were saying it correctly ..
LOL @@jonathanbumstead1562
'Ark-an-saw'
:) hehe I have never heard anyone say it, I only read it from books.
Prices in pakistan
I am unsure sorry. I have to buy from an overseas supplier myself.
Don't use 3 in one on your oil stone Arkanas stones should be used with water
hmm you sure? Arkanas is an Oil stone. Can you link a reference for using water?
@@DeanDK Arkansas stones can be used with water or oil, if you use water you need to use much more than you do oil, I was trying to make the point not to use 3in one it is horrible stuff, leaves behind a residue and almost impossible to remove.
Ahhh okay, yes I believe you are correct in terms of the 3 in 1 being horrible. I used to use honing oil, it got a bit pricey.
Yes use a light machine oil,,,sawing machine oil is good, rather than 3 in 1
This is when you have steel gravers. Now - how to sharp a carbide graver? I believe these stones will not do the job...
You are correct. I will make a video about carbide soon!
Use diamond abrasives! I've seen some instructions where a small diamond abrasive wheel is spun in the lathe, so the lathe is used to sharpen your graver. I haven't done this, but have used flat diamond sharpening "stones".
Please suggest me
Not for jewary
Would you be interested in selling this particular lathe? I tried to message you on Insta 😊