Harley's Automatic Primary Tensioners are a Real Issue
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2021
- Harley's automatic primary chain tensioner sounds like a great idea on paper. But as miles accumulate some bad things start to happen and we begin to see things we'd rather not see. Like pinion shaft run out and the infamous Harley crank scissoring, or basically the flywheels shifting on the crank pin. Looser tolerances in the Twin Cam engines paired with an ever tightening primary chain are a bad combination!
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Would you go with a manual primary chain tensioner or a spring loaded automatic tensioner like the Hayden?
Manual one! and checks every now and then😎 Good video again👍
After this video I would lean toward the manual tensioner.
The best one out there in my opinion is from Southern Oregon Hot Bike and its Hydraulic. Never had any issues with it and it makes shifting and finding neutral a breeze. I throw one on every HD I have owned and recommend them to all of my friends. Can't beat it for $100
I found the one that is identical to the South Oregon Hot Bike on Dennis Kirk catalog for 80 bucks, part number 18-0120
Manual always and forever
I worked at H-D at the time in the Engineering Dept (not an engineer). I don't remember the automatic chain tensioner being considered a problem related to the flywheel scissoring problem. The scissoring problem was a big deal at Harley and pressed together flywheel strength was studied extensively to determine cause(s). Several changes were implemented to reduce or eliminate the problem although there is only so much you can do with a pressed together flywheel vs a one piece forged crankshaft. Problems we found (to the best of my memory).
1. Production line parts cleaning fluid was not being changed often enough (to save money) causing parts with slight oil film to be pressed together. Study showed oily parts in press fit caused significant measurable decrease in flywheel strength. Solution- change parts washing fluid more often.
2. The flywheel truing process causes the press fit to be manipulated causing a decrease in flywheel press fit strength (the more the flywheel is trued by hydraulic press or old fashioned hammer blows, the weaker it gets). Solution was to possibly assemble the flywheel more accurately so that the flywheel would be true without any manipulation of the pressed parts. This is one of the reasons the flywheel runout tolerance was increased from the original 0.0015" as they found flywheels could not be pressed together without separate truing and meet the .0015" tolerance.
3. Larger displacement engine (110cu in vs previous 103,95,88) combined with bikes generally getting heavier over time and possibly some occasional engine lugging by folks not downshifting into correct gear when putting around a parking lot at low speed. There was a mechanic I worked with who was involved in studying the problem and he could scissor a flywheel on command by riding a bike ( I think he would lug the bike around slowly in too high of a gear and input lots of throttle). We've probably all done it and felt the herky-jerky motion created by not downshifting properly. Solution was to change the throttle calibration to not allow as much power input if the bike was in too low a gear for the current wheel speed. Lot's of police bikes were built with 103's (stock tuning) and to my knowledge the scissor problem didn't appear until the 110 motor was released in 2007 to the general public.
4. The straight roller left main bearing may contribute to scissoring problem by not holding the flywheel as rigidly as the previous tapered timken.
I could see possibly where the automatic primary tensioner could contribute to the flywheel scissoring once the flywheel has begun to scissor as the flywheel output shaft running out of true would cause the primary chain to tighten/loosen/tighten possibly causing the tensioner to ratchet tighter and tighter over time. Not here to defend the automatic primary chain tensioner. It may be part of the problem but I don't think it is the only factor. There's my two cents.
That's a very heavy 2 cents and some awesome input! Likely why every Harley owners manual stresses to not lug that engine, that's a lot of force on the flywheels with the engine design!
@@GixxerFoo Indeed - that was more like two thousand pennies 👍👍
That wasn't merely two cents' worth; that was two thousand cents. Fascinating and very well-written insights and account. Thank you, kindly! 👍
From southern California ~ Ride Forever! 🦅
Who remembers the shelf struggling to stay afloat? Good times.
😄😂 those were the days, I almost hated to change it since it was such a conversation piece.
🤣🤣🤣
Ayuh wonder when that was going crash
👍
omg 🤣
Hey GF, your channel has grown because you provide quality content that is pertinent to HD riders. Until today I have never heard of crankshaft scissoring or problems with the automatic chain tensioner. That's why I come here.
Thank you I really appreciate it! It's just a lot of obscure things I've learned over the years, I see too many people buy a used Harley only to have a major issue.
Pressed crankshafts are and always will be prone to twisting out of line if used wrongly. SPG made excellent racing crankshafts using a pressed construction for vw flat four engines. Bullet proof until you held high revs and dump the clutch. Instant wrecked engine cases. Use it conservatively and you will not have a better balanced crank.
As for chain tensioners.
Automatic tension devices are for cam chains and where maintenance wants to be reduced. Far better to remove the need and use a gear train instead. As for belts. They are for holding up trousers.
Harley increased the allowable run-out so they could weasel their way out of warranty claims. That's one of the things that definitely left an impression on me about the Integrity of Harley-Davidson as a company.
The high tolerances are for sure not right, that makes a lot of sense!
Talk about the HARD-ON the EPA/DOT has had for HD Since at least 1995 at mininum.. This is a Huge Part of the Multitude of Problems with HD these Days. And another part is the New Age Bean Counters.
ABSOLUTELY the the Chain Tensióners are part of this Abortion. Along with Super High Pressure Valve Springs. Hey Fellas!! Stay below. 550 Lift and 5800 RPM and your Twin Cam will live longer PERIOD!! And for the 'B' Motors find a Electionic Balancer.. Do the Crank a Throw the Balancers Under the Work Bench Plug the Oíl Hole and Forget about it . And Install a Manual Chain Tensióner.. Or Better Yet get yourself a S&S V111 EVO. Have Fun ✌️
@@donalbershardt9290 The Yamaha Road Star NEVER had a "multitude of problems" in sixteen years of manufacture starting in 1999 - EPA/DOT or no EPA/DOT. Air cooled single pin solid crank with side-by-side automotive style rods set at 48 degrees. Gear driven, pushrod activated cams. Gear driven primary. Four valve heads. Belt final drive. So that's the end of that biased and highly erroneous assessment. Rather, Harley's multitude of problems where cause by, well, the Harley-Davidson Motor Company in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, U.S.A. 😏
I took the automatic tensioner out of my dyna at 25 k miles and replaced it with a Hayden M6 .The bike now has 104 K miles and going strong . I like the hayden unit as it is so forgiving .
I put a Screamin Eagle manual tensioner in my softy bout a year and a half ago and wish I had done it sooner, yeah, a little more work to adjust it but I don’t have to worry about my chain feeling like a guitar string especially when laying a roller lol. Shifts better too and the bonus is by taking the outer primary cover off once a year, I can really see the condition of everything and thoroughly clean/inspect everything.
Getting some eyes in that primary is never a bad thing! Great to hear that manual tensioner is working out for you!
Never had an issue with the automatic primary chain tensioner on my stock 96" FLTR with over 196K on the original drivetrain.
I’m a Harley mechanic for over 25 years now and I’ve seen nothing but problems caused by the automatic primary chain tensioners
I had that done ... new rods and had crank tried and welded.. ended up getting a runout of 0.0008" at the cam plate checked... and got the timing bearing done to the case.. smooth as silk
Your logic makes perfect sense to me. In light of this information, I think I'd rather have a manual tensioner. I'd be ok with checking the manual tensioner once in a while if it kept that stress off of everything else. Great info, as always.
Thank you! It's for sure nice knowing where your tensioner setting is at and not just leaving it to chance with the automatic.
@@GixxerFoo Thought about getting the automatic and read about some problems with them on HD's website. Decided that it is easier to do it manually. There is no visible wear on mine at 54k miles so...don't fix it if it ain't broke.
I fitted a Hayden M6 to my 2003 Fatboy at around 30,000 miles-one of the best mods out there.On some of the later models there's no inspection plate on the primary cover to check the chain tension-HD seemingly,were so confident with their automatic chain tensioner they didn't bother fitting one-sounds a bit like Titanic and life boats!
That's exactly why I prefer the manual tensioners, you can set it and you know where you're at!
When I did my last build, I went with Hoban Brothers Darkhorse Man O War crankshaft (they ensure it's balanced then weld the pin and provide a certificate with your total runout numbers), their Man O War compensator sprocket (in my opinion a better/simpler design than Baker's with the added benefit of being serviceable/rebuildable), and Southern Oregon Hotbikes HB125-07 primary chain tensioner. Topped her off with a Rekluse clutch and now she is smooth as silk.
I really like Dark Horse products, I feel their compensator eliminator with the cush drive was just absolute genius. It's really all you need in there and it works, like you mentioned rebuildable too!
I like your reasoning with the chain tensioner . You're not the only one out there that has this same theory.
It's always good to know your not alone! They were pressed on the 88's and didn't have any issues, a lot of manufactures used pressed cranks with no issues. Lol they don't use automatic tensioners that locks the chain in place either. Then again they are mostly gear driven too.
Damn interesting hypothesis. During last rebuild (103 to 110 CVO) upgrade,I had crank split, with new pin, rods and bearings and then welded by revolution. Installed new SE compensator as well as new tensioner. The original compensator was shot but the tensioner was still decent. Motor had 56k miles. I noticed now that the engine (floorboards) are very smooth at about 60 and is like glass at 90. I attribute that smoothness to the crank work. Anyhow, these 45 degree motors got lots of engineering compromises. I’ve not had transmission bearing issues (yet).
Getting a built crank in there makes a huge difference!
Planning to put in a Screaming Eagle compensator and manual chain tensioner this winter on my 2012 TC96. I think you are 100% right.
That's a excellent plan! After a OEM compensator fails I always recommend going with the SE, oddly it's cheaper and for sure better than OEM. With the manual tensioner kept adjusted you shouldn't have any issues going forward.
It keeps growing because you are giving us good information in a way that is entertaining and fun to watch, keep up the good work. Can't wait for the next one!
I appreciate that!
2013 RKC 55000 mi Stage 1, All stock after that.
My chain is about 5/8ths free play . checked thru hole with long screw driver !
Folks just ride!!! Have Fun! Old M/C Mechcanic age 69
Long Live 57 Pan ...
On my 88th TC, someone installed such an automatic tensioner. As a result, the failure of the bearings and seals of the primary and gearbox
Been using Haydens M6 primary chain tensioner since 1998 on my 86 FLT. No problems so far. This video gives me another reason to look at our 2014 FLHTCU with suspicion lol. Been subscribed since the shelf was sagging. Your content has always been good. Keep it up!
Thank you! You've been on the channel for quite a while! The Hayden is an awesome system, Harley should of used a design like that.
Great video. I have a 2006 Road king custom. At 48,000 miles I changed the cams and plate to SE and 204 cams( stock 88, true duals, super sucker air filter), I also put in an auto primary chain adjuster. After about 100 miles the screaming coming from the primary showed an overnight chain, I scrapped the auto adjuster and put a new shoe on the manual one. With 75,000 miles on it now, no noise, and little wear on the hydraulic cam shoes. Changing the cam plate and staying away from the auto primary is definitely the way to go
No more than those primary chains need to be adjusted the manual is well worth the investment and peace of mind!
While in my primary installing a Baker comp. I also installed an attitude adjuster. Your video reinforces that decision. Keep 'em coming!
That's some solid upgrades right there, save you a lot of headaches down the road!
I totally agree with you.
My '09 went through three transmission bearings.
Then I shared the crankshaft off.
The chain tensioner was always super tight.
This makes total sense and that's what actually I said when the crankshaft sheared off
I'm a new subscriber since purchasing my first HD. It's a used, 2011 Heritage Softail w/ a stock 103 engine. I've wrenched plenty of bikes over nearly five decades but never really messed around with Harleys. What I like about your vids is that you offer food for thought. This vid is the perfect example. What came first, the looser tolerances or the automatic chain tensioner? As an old British bike fanatic (mainly Bonnies and Tridents) I'd put my money on the auto-tensioners for messing things up more than the looser tolerances. Mind you the old Triumphs never had auto-tensioners but sure had plenty of people that over-tightened the dog poo out of the primary chains...leading to various ugly disasters.
Anyhow, keep up the good work GixxerFoo. For a young guy you sure have your finger on the finer technical issues, good and bad, of this Milwaukee iron, and that's commendable. The devil's always in the details isn't it?
Thank you for the subscription, I really appreciate it! The devil really is in the details, the auto tensioner cam after the looser tolerances. The loose tolerances started on the 88 but it had a manual tensioner. We didn't see these issues on the 88's, the problem started in 2007 with the 6 speed transmission. It was blamed on the trans which had some seal issues and then the compensator failures the same year. The only thing that was changed was the auto tensioner over the manual. On a Harley it's best to err on the side of caution and run it a bit looser, tighter on a Harley isn't always better in the drive train.
I’m not surprised your channel is growing. Good info with no attitude.
Thank you, I appreciate it !
Love your content. You make these issues easy to understand for the lay person. Love the twin cam content, I may never be able to afford an M8, so my 88 tc in my Road King Classic is my future. Thanks again!
I am not sold on the M8's, they are still having some issues so I would say the Twin Cam would be a better choice.
Congratulations Foo!! Yeah, glad I have an 02 but like you said, the Timken won’t stop scissoring and glad my adjuster is manual. 55k on my crank which is the only stock case part left after I finished building her on my 95” 100/100 build and so far she has been flawless. Everyone I Know who has a brand new bike, their biggest complaint is trying to get it in neutral at a stop, too much tension!
Timken lower and a manual adjuster is about is the hot setup. Your bike was built when the factory set the backlash on Timken bearings in the cases.
Own a stock TC88 02 FatBoy w manual tensioner. I always check the tension when doing the primary fluid change, and have barely needed to adjust it over the years. Like you, I like the idea of knowing what the tension is set to. I had the opportunity to change to the automatic adjuster, but felt the constant tension was too much, all the time. I felt that if I ever really needed to in the future, I could easily do it. That was over ten years…and I found no reason to change. Great video as always 👍😎
I like to know where my tension is set and not leave it to chance!
Automatic chain tensioners have always been a bad idea, and never seem to work right. That applies to ANY chain tensioner. The automatic cam chain and primary tensioners on Harley Davidsons are only one example. I have seen a lot of Japanese bike engines destroyed by failed automatic cam chain tensioners. I have been riding Kawasaki Vulcan 750s since 1993, when I bought my first new one. The cam chain tensioners lasted about 10,000 miles before the cam chains started rattling. I replaced them with a new set of oem tensioners, and the same thing happened. As far as I know, this problem affected every Kawasaki Vulcan 750 ever made, and they were made from 1985-2006, unchanged except for paint colors. Many engines wound up getting destroyed because owners did not realize the tensioners had failed. Finally an aftermarket company came up with a manual cam chain tensioner the solved the problem. I am now on my third Vulcan 750 and have those manual tensioners on it.
The problem with the Kawasaki tensioners is that the threaded plunger assembly was made out of hardened steel, and the threaded housing was made out of soft aluminum. The constant pounding on the plunger by the cam chain destroyed the soft aluminum threads in the housing. But even all steel automatic tensioners have been known to stick. Both my Harleys (an FXRS and an EVO Sportster) have manual primary chain tensioners.
As always, very well narrated and in an understanding way. The chain tightening up as much as you explained would certainly put extreme force on the crank and clutch basket, I'll defiantly keep an eye on that. Love the picture of the three stooges behind you. Safe riding from England.
Thank you, I appreciate it! Getting a Hayden auto adjuster or going manual is a good plan!
Replaced mine on the 2007 Fatboy after hearing things from folks so glad I did. Thank you for this video. Brothers need to know.
Thank you I appreciate it! It's really good idea to get it replaced before it causes issues.
Really great to have a knowledgeable source of information.
Great video sir!
You're very literate and easy to follow. (Many people posting videos don't know what they're doing)
I bought an '09 FLHX new.
Of course, they're all great when new, but eventually I suspected something was not right. I read blogs from different sites about the auto tensioner and decided to take a look.
I discovered that my primary chain was as tight as a piano string! Along with that, many bloggers also found their clutch hub splines broken on the inboard side of the hub. I found this problem on mine also. The majority of the splines were broken and pieces lying in the bottom of my primary. Some of the pieces were up to 3/8 inches.
So, I bought a new clutch hub, clutch hub bearing. I also replaced the inner primary bearing. (noises)
Bloggers complained too, that the compensator was not strong enough for the 96, so I replaced the original with a recommended S.E. compensator.
Yes, the auto-tensioner is garbage! Even though the cost of a different tensioner would not "break the bank", I altered my original tensioner to make it a manual adjuster. (I liked the components of the original) It cost me about $1.00 for a long stainless screw and nylock nut. Again, I can afford new parts, but at this point I'm pretty disheartened with the whole scenario, so in defiance, used my head instead of my wallet.
Currently, I have roughly 55k on my bike, and I like my bike. I shouldn't have to buy another to alleviate issues. But, every year now, it seems more issues keep popping up. I believe I have a collapsed lifter, but haven't addressed that yet.
I believe the faulty auto-tensioner has caused much of the mentioned issues, and there may be more to be found.
This is not right. You'd think that after all these years, Harley would be able to build a better product, or at least stand behind what they do build by fixing their mistakes?
In a perfect world, maybe.........
Thank you, I appreciate it! Harley just really went for more production and reduced costs while still keeping the premium price tag. The auto tensioner is for sure a huge contributor to a lot of the issues, good thing you found that broken clutch!
I bought my first Harley Davidson in September 2020 and it had 3400 miles on it when I got it. Ever since, it's been extremely difficult to go from 1st gear to neutral, so I find it easier to go from second gear to neutral. The bike has now done about 11,500 miles from new and I'm feeling guilty that I didn't research this topic sooner because I feel that if the tensioner has ratcheted tight, in the early days, then it's 11 thousand miles overdue for a manual adjuster. My mechanic said he'd do the changeover on the next service, which is in about 5000 miles time, but I'm thinking of getting it done sooner.
That's always a issue with a Harley, finding neutral but you get some slack in that chain and it works a lot better!
My 06 fxdli has had no tensioner issues, primary exposed twice in 26k of use. Overall its been a great running bike.
Can't complain about that, nothing wrong there!
Great video Dude. You have hit the nail on the head about the auto chain tensioner
Thank you, they can for sure cause some serious problems as the bike gets some miles on it.
Another well done area of interest. Thank you sir.
You are very welcome!
I have been working on Harleys since 1979. Great subject ! I believe you are actually on to something! Great show, I hope you keep growing viewers. You describe issues in a nutshell. I know it seems that the average Joe that understands the workings of a small block Chevy would be able to grasp the working of a Harley even though they are not the same. You are either a gearhead or you're not. I have seen guys cause problems on shovelhead's that was not the bike's fault. Although they did have some so called engineer's that must have lied about previous employment! Lol I would love the guy and get to question him about the single bolt on the exhaust! Really ! Haha thanks for a great show, keep up the great work ! AMF
Thank you, I appreciate it! Harley's are pretty simple, you just can't overthink things with those motors!
Harley flywheels have been scissoring since before they started pressing them together, but the very first time a pressed together set did it everyone started acting like it was something unique to them.
In the 33 years I've been rebuilding and modifying Harley engine's I can honestly say I've seen it happen to more pre pressed flywheels than pressed one's, all this turmoil over it is proof of how people just latch onto something and make an issue of it.
They for sure could of used a solid crank pin, the aftermarket is always there to make it right though.
Yeah, people have this habit of "latching onto" things that grab their wallet and mood in a big way 🙄
Congrats on the channel success ! I have never thought about the auto tensioner causing crank problems but I think your on to something most of the crank problems I run into is guys doing wheelies & holeshots that puts an extreme torque load on the crank ! I have tried pressed together cranks on my old Rowe truing stand & then I weld both sides ! That's what we used to do on the drag bike except we only did the sprocket shaft side pinion side is keyed ! I have a snap on 3/4 drive torque wrench & I put 350 to 400 lbs on all the shovels & Evos !
Thank you! That is some brutal torque spec right there! I mean you put that kind of force on one side of the crank with looser tolerances throughout a motor something has to give!
Everytime I watch one of your videos it always gives me a warm & fuzzy about keeping my 02 RKC with its manual primary chain adjuster among other things you've talked about. When I change the primary fluid about every 5K, I give the primary chain a wiggle. If it's maybe a 1/2" at most, I call it good. I've adjusted it twice in 78.5K miles. Bike continues to hum along like it's still new. Congrats on 25K subscribers. Awesome! My favorite Harley channel. I miss the sagging shelf too.
That is awesome! I appreciate the support! It really doesn't need to be adjusted much, they don't stretch a whole lot just casually riding. I would for sure hang onto your 2002!
Plus you have a hot forged crank as well as the Timken bearing(s) on the sprocket shaft - both of which features were eliminated in '03. I reckon you've addressed the cam chain tensioners.
@@midnightmc3096 Yup. Changed those out at about 50K with the new setup.
I always enjoy the videos that you produce.I trust what you are telling us!my only regret is that you are too far away from eastern n.c. for me to carry my bike to you when it needs to be worked on. Keep up the good work,and thank you!
Thanks for the informative video. Sadly, I recently had to learn about this issue the hard way. The Automatic HD chain tensioner, which obviously had been running too tight for some time on my 2010 Ultra caused a lot of damage and many components had to be replaced at a significant cost to me. Not that there is ever a good time for this sort of unexpected expense, but this really came at the worst time possible. Of course the Harley dealerships will play all kinds of games and rack up a big invoice for you, but HD itself will never take responsibility for this sort of engineering mistake, so the owners are left dealing with the issue out of pocket. All this happened with only 37k miles on the bike. On the other hand, my 1999 FLHTCI has 137k (exactly 100k more miles than my 2010) and never had any such issues! After much research, I arrived at the same conclusion as you, and your video further solidified the fact that the auto chain tensioners are the issue. I only wish someone had told me a few years ago so the cost of repair would have been a few hundred dollars, rather than several thousand dollars! Thanks and please keep up the good work.
Thank you and sorry to hear about your bike. Yeah Harley doesn't admit fault, they just quietly fix things without any kind of announcement.
@@GixxerFoo I understand there are multiple options for a manual chain tensioner. Do you have any recommendation as to which works best?
I 100% agree. In my 08 Dyna big twin I've found multiple issues thanks to your videos stemming from the tensioner including one I hope you do a video on soon. The overtightened chain created a primary leak that damaged the primary seal, bearing, and walked in / grooved race I replaced yesterday. Thanks to your video I now see I likely now pull the 6 speed to do bearings on too since my leak continues. What you missed about the correlated compensator issue though is that often the sprockets, while showing wear, might mask what in my case was the underlying hard start issue, the alternator rotor with integrated spring pack. The spring lost torsional force falling to push out sprockets and the internal magnets on opposing side were loose enough I was miles from them falling into and destroying stator. I even needed a starter ring gear on the clutch basket from the chain pulling so hard on basket and bearings it chipped teeth, sheered a few. Your videos really saved this guy used to Ironheads big $$$ on repair guidance! The technical approach helped me understand the failures enough to make insights and know what I needed to do in last couple weeks and now I know where to be looking to next in addressing my primary leak. Thanks. :)
That's awesome! Good to hear you caught that stuff and are getting it taken care of! There's just so many obscure things with Harleys depending on which year you have.
@@GixxerFoo In your opinion is there anything else I should look at to determine the primary oil seal leak? The trans doesn't leak so I'm mixed on pulling it to check bearings. Thinking race alignment maybe, but I used the removal collar tool to gap so the seal lip should be seated correctly when I seat the primary in relation to bearing / seal. It's been frustrating ha ha...
Congrats on your 25K sub milestone. Love your straightforward vids. I never thought of the tensioner creating an issue with the crank but makes sense. I briefly put in a hayden but read a lot of problems with it evidently being cheaply made. The springs and over all design of the hayden did not impress me. The concept was good, just not the execution, to me.
Thanks 👍, the I've seen good and bad results with the Hayden. They seem to work pretty well on the big twins, Sportsters is where they seem to have issues.
Excellent video and it all makes sense. Thanks.
I’m surprised that you “only” have 25k subscribers!! Cheers, and thank you.
Wow, thank you!
The automatic tensor gets crazy tight and does damage. I have a manual tensor on my Twin Cam.
They really do, it's scary how tight those things get!
Hi, thanks for the video. I agree with you in that the automatic tensioner needs to go! You're Right, nobody EVER talks about the fine-splined sprocket shaft although it experiences much more abuse than the pinion shaft of the flywheels. I sure wish H-D would use an interference press-fit plug in the crankpin to solidify the flywheel assembly like Darkhorse does, that would eliminate a lot of problems with that whole assembly! Thanks again for your excellent video!
Thank you, I appreciate it! Dark Horse really has it figured out, they make some damn good products.
Love your Chanel always learn a lot❤️
Awesome! Thank you!
Great channel, l enjoy all your info. Keep up the good work. I put an automatic chain tensioner into my ‘06 Night Train thinking l was improving my bike. Now l am going to take it out. The more l learn about the newer Harleys the more l like my older 88” twin cams. To be honest, the only thing l wish my bikes had was the built in clock that is in the odometer that the ‘07 and newer bikes have. Lol
😄 the clock really is pretty handy lol. There's a lot to be said about the older bikes, I firmly believe they are worth putting some money in over buying a new bike.
Congrats on the 25k subscribers! I love your channel. Simple solution, go back to the Evolution. Can you imagine where we would be if Harley invested in the Evo like they did on the Twin Cam? Evos with FI and CC would be awesome, especially if they exceed 100 cu in.
Thank you! I really think Harley made that Evo too reliable lol, it wasn't generating enough parts and service revenue. Now if they would of engineered the Twin Cam more like the Evo that would of been great, the Twin Cam could of really been the second coming of the Evo.
That's because you put out GOOD INFORMATION 👍 And you're a good teacher.
I appreciate that!
I’m gonna do the baker at 5k miles. Thanks for the info. I’ve got a big loupe cam going in this week. I can see this even further aggravating the issue. I’m going back and watching everything you put out btw. Your like my Harley mechanic friend I don’t actually have. Many thanks.
Thank you, I appreciate it! It's worth the investment with no more than the primary chain needs to be adjusted, especially with that big cam going in!
In 45 years of riding I've owned Pans, Shovels,Evolutions etc. But last year I bought My first 883 Sportster for an incredible price in MINT condition. It's a 2005 883xl that had 3k on it and in turn, I now own My first twin cam. Well I apparently got lucky because this year has the bugs of the earlier and the changes of the latter are engineered out. And to be honest, I'm gonna leave this thing stock, it's a joy to ride. Of course I put the 30 tooth sprocket in and went 10 over on the front and will be replacing tensioners etc (TLC) , but I'm stopping there. This has become My favorite ride !
Great Info as usual... keep up the GOOD work!!! Thanx!!
Thanks for watching!
due to videos like this ive pulled my primary cover off twice in 28k on my 103. even though i would describ myself as an aggressive rider down shifting to pass ect... every time ive inspected itvits been perfect, right between 5/8 & 3/4 so now you have heard a good story about the adjustor. i was thinking dark horse comp and adjustor but... not yet anyway.
It does vary across bikes, sounds like you've got a good one!
Very interesting.
Always seem to be finding reasons I'm glad I kept my 2001 RK!
There's a lot of good reasons to hang onto a 2001, you can save a lot of money by just fixing that bike up over a new one. It ends up being even more reliable than the new ones in the end.
Awesome video...learned a ton, as usual!
Glad to hear it! Thank you, I appreciate it!
I agree with your theory. Definitely gave me a heads up to pull the covers and check runout. Increasing runout tolerances on a crankshaft is mighty suspicious. I've worked with high speed turbine compressors and have first hand witnessed the results of vibration caused by runout. It aint pretty! As for a root cause analysis on "scissoring", I think you are on the right track with the tensioner issue. Your videos and commentary rock! Good job!!!
Thank you! I worked as a mechanic in a power plant and turbine shaft run out was imperative, as well as alignment along the shaft. Lol I've some turbine blade carnage so I know exactly what you mean!
Yo brother Foo , I know I thanked u before about ur information videos, but man I'm a member of a couple different forums but I've learned more about the 07 and later twin cam engines from u than I have from being in those forums for several years now. So please , whenever possible, I d love to see more on the first year of the 96s starting in 2007. Have an awesome day, bro.
The first years of the 96's were pretty much the same as the 103, but after 2009 that's when they made the Screamin Eagle compensator the stock part after the failures. But they are same cams as the 103 up until the 103HO, just a little less bore but the same crank.
I have one of those 07 automatic chain tensioners, with around 23k on my twinky, and only checked it once through the derby cover last year. The chain still had some play on it then, but I have considered getting a manual tensioner. Probably next year.
Thanks for the reminder about this possible problem.
It's good you've got some play in there, most of them are solid tight and that's when you start having issues.
@@GixxerFoo Amen to that.
Not bad Gixx, doubled your subs in just a year, congrats!
I have 53k on the Hayden in my 95 ultra.
Why didnt Harley go with a similar solution? Simple not complicated and works great.
Harley is just a traditional company and up until now they have been slow to move. Either forward or slow to fix mistakes, which is baffling to me.
Thanks again for another great video and detective work! Always wondered about those automatic tensioners and heard that they over tightened. I just stay with my manual tightener and will have to get a hydraulic for my’12 SG. Thank you other commenters for advice, I’m gonna check them out.
Thank you, I appreciate it! Manual or hydraulic is the best way to go!
Does that screaming Eagle tensioner noisy? I hear they are until you put some miles on it. That one by Southern Oregon has good reviews but like you I want the piece of mind.
Another great video. What other primary chain tensioner do you like? SE, Hayden,Twin power, etc...
makes sense. Thanks for the heads up
Anytime! Hope you enjoyed it!
Started seeing the issues with the cranks in the 07 and up and the auto tensioner is a no brainer as far as getting it gone. Already had the compensator replaced on my 07 softail a few years ago and put in the SE tensioner a few months back. So far so good.
You shouldn't have any issues now going forward with that done!
@@GixxerFoo I didn’t change the chain tensioner till it had 30K. It has 33250 on it now so I’m sure there is already some damage done but it still runs ok. Just did a 1069 mile road trip in 3 days and it ran just fine!
Easier way to check chain tension on automatic adjusters is to remove derby cover and stick a slim screwdriver in there sideways to move the chain up an down.
I usually get 3/8 to 1/2 movement which is spec.
Never had a problem with auto adjuster on my 2011 softail or my 2014 rk.
I check them every 5 k when I change fluids and adjust clutch.
That's exactly what I would highly recommend if you elect to run a manual tensioner. A lot of the problem starts when the bikes get some miles and the chain starts to stretch a bit with normal wear.
I pulled my primary cover at the start of the riding season. Sure enough, my chain was as tight as the Vatican's Banking Books!
I pull the auto tensioner out, reset it to the proper chain tension and will check it again at the seasons end....
But, I expect I''ll be changing it out for an after market manual unit.....
I'm wondering how long does it take for a resetted OEM tensior to 'ratchet up' tight again? I guess that would depend on load, and how aggressive the acceleration / deceleration is (ie, hard riding vs sedate cruising).
As you ride it will start taking up the slack in the chain pretty quick, with the manual it will stay where you put it.
I believe in manual tensioners...and the scissoring of the crank I think is from heavy on - off throttle that causes alot of for and aft torsion load on the pin. Love the vids keep em coming
Great point! On and off the throttle for sure creates some serious torsional load!
What is your opponent on the haydon style auto adjust tensioner style vs.a 2006 vintage stock unit?Thanks Great video thanks for sharing your knowledge
I'm at 107,000 MI with no inner motor issues...I run Redline oils ...2011 Ultra
There's a lot to be said about high dollar quality oil, you get what you pay for!
For those who want to spend the best $100 dollars of your life consider adding a Southern Oregon Hot Bike "HB-125" Hydraulic Primary chain tensioner. Set it and forget it
Hydraulic is even better than the spring tensioner, it will still have some give in the tight spots of the chain.
@@GixxerFoo absolutely I have also seen how these newer style automatic tensioners will destroy a clutch basket as well
After looking at all types of tensioners this the one I will likely go with.
@@gsfinatic yep, ive put 100k miles on mine and its definitely worth the investment. If you own an Evo or anything compatible with the fitment of this tensioner its worth its weight in gold. Whoever invented this was a genius.
@@kennethwise7108 I have 2014 LTD 103 with 50k miles on it. Hasn't had any problems but still want to keep her going for a long time.
All of this happened to my 07 Ultra Classic. It sucked bad, I loved the bike, hated all the money that thing costed me. It made me buy an Indian. I still have a Harley with a Timken conversion, and welded crank. It's still alive.
Over tensioning by the auto tensioner can also be caused by chain slap. Remember that HD recommends shifting to 6th at 85km/h or 55mph. This lugs the engine into a chain slap condition.
That is an excellent point and another important reason Harley stresses to not lug the engines.
I miss the old 5pc cranks. I've assembled and trued dozens for Flat/Knuckle/Pan/Shovel/Block head motors with no failures. Late Shovels and Evos had 3pc cranks. Of course if ya want to make more power , go with T&O , S&S or Jims steel wheels. The steel wheels take a lot more torque on the shaft and crank pins nuts than cast iron wheels. And the tapers must be CLEAN and DRY.
It would sure be nice if they would go back to the old style cranks but I don't see it happening.
Do you think it makes sense to just make the switch from the stock compensator to a sprocket style, and a manual chain tensioner at the same time?
I absolutely agree, this makes perfect sense to me. I just posted a lil vid on my channel of my bike, will be doing this work soon and installing my Darkhorse while im in there
It's the perfect time to do it while you're in there installing that Dark Horse!
great info a usual man. good job.
Thank you, I appreciate the support!
Your content is great that's why you are growing
Slowly but surely were growing over here, thank you for your support!
i really enjoy ur channel best channel on the tube keep on keepn on
Thanks, will do!
I have a 2016 softail heritage 103HO and I’m curious why they don’t have the small inspection plate for the primary chain tensioner even with the auto tensioner? I just thought it would be easier and cheaper to have it. Thanks for your input.
I can agree the automatic tensioner system is too tight, think about the clunk when you put it in first gear. However the manual tensioner if serviced is a better option, but the manual tensioner also has a tendency to break apart or drop the shoe the chain rides on. I'm going to say depending on what type of setup you run meaning cams, motor work essentially maybe the determining Factor. But obviously regular maintenance is absolute.
For sure there's no work around on the maintenance, with the manual you gotta keep up on that with the primary service interval. It's a pain to pull the primary but a small amount of work compared to having a major failure.
I'm pretty sure the issue is down to the dynamics of the engine. The crankshaft wobble you're referring to are called crank torsionals which are resultant of the engine, crank, and cam design. The tensioner it's designed to balance chain control and chain tension. The chain does not put stress on the crank, rather it has to deal with the dynamics of the crank.
there's a revision to the original HD auto primary tensioner...seems to be working well with the new revision that i heard.
The three piece, built-up HD crankshaft assembly is basically 1895 de Dion-Bouton technology from the French engine that Harley-Davidson borrowed when building their first real engine in 1903-'04. Def needs updating.
They really need to go to a 1 piece assembly but Harley is always slow to move.
As always more great information. As far as the auto tension on the primary goes sounds great but too tight is no good and it can get that way too easily. I agree, go manual. Not a problem on my EVO.
I took mine out this summer and put the manual adjuster in I think it runs a lot cooler too
I wouldn't doubt it's running cooler at all, that motor isn't having to fight all the tension from the chain being over tightnened.
My 2001 FLTRSE has the manual adjuster and CV carb conversion.Thank the Lord!
That is awesome!
I have thought about it, since my primary imploded. broken comp. spring. about 180,000 kms. I have 187,000 0n it now. 2009 fxdf. I had to go back and replace the starter clutch drive 3days after i fixed the primary. then the fuel pump let go. but i still love the bike .do a lot of hiway riding. In B.C. canada its got the 96 inch motor . Use to like riding down to reno, montana, anacortes oyster run. till covid hit.
Absolutely is a problem buddy just had this exact problem. Moter rebuild time sucks. Manual adjustment the way you want to go 4 sure. Thank you great video.
Thank you, I hope it didn't trash the motor too bad! For sure go with the manual adjuster, that way you know what the tension is!
Great piece. Question: Are there any companies that build/sell primary casings with a manual adjustment window? If not, seems like a great opportunity for someone to fill that niche.
That's a great idea, I'm not aware of any out there actually. They did away with the window after the 88 and went with a solid primary. That's a excellent idea though, I'll have to do some looking around.
My compensator on my 15 CVO Street glide shit the bed at 20k miles. I switched over to the Baker compensator and attitude adjuster manual primary chain tensioner. It’s a lot louder than the stock auto tensioner. That had me nervous for a good little bit. But 5k miles later, everything was sound and in good working order. I also notice my clutch is a little rattly / noisy when fully open. I wonder if all that excessive pressure from the auto tensioner is the culprit. I’m going to replace it with a rekluse and see if I tell a difference.
It's highly possible the auto tensioner could of cause of issues, they literally bind everything together when they ratchet up tight. I still firmly believe that was a cause of a lot of the failures on the 6 speed transmission when they first came out.
Can you provide any insight into the newest
version? The 39929-06C. I notice the ramp that
was metal on the A and B version is now polymer
like the shoe on version C. ls this strictly a cost
cutting measure per usual from Harley or do you
think the teeth being plastic will shear if the belt
becomes overly tight by the ratcheting? Thank
you
I need a new compensator for my 103 2014 road king , it’s only got a stage 1 I’m hearing the compensator on these models are supposed to be pretty good should I replace it with oem, bike has 40ks on it
I switched to the Hayden and haven’t had any issues. Put 10,000 on it. Messed with the spring amount in it, the shims, just playing around with it and it’s worn evenly and stayed consistent. I did all this after switching from the stock compensator, that was beat to hell, to a BDL compensator.
Hayden is what the Harley tensioner should of been, that was nice upgrade to go with that new compensator!
I run the Baker compensator and manual adjuster which is supposed to be checked every 5,000 which is also the oil change interval so just doing that in addition to a three-hole oil change is a piece of cake. That's on an '08 Road King but my 14 Ultra limited also has enough slop that when I get on it at low RPMs I can hear the compensator springs slipping or the chain smacking the case.... So it's about to get a baker as well.
Baker makes an awesome compensator! Going with Baker products can really solve a lot of issues like that.
When I bought my 22 Heritage one of the first things I did was weld the stock tensioner to 5/8" of play at tightest point.
Wow. I am in the middle of discovering this personally. I am currently in the assembly phase of trying to recover exactly what this Man is saying. He is legit. I am switching from an "automatic Primary Chain Tensioner to a Maunual One. I dont subscribe to any channel here at RUclips "University"!!!!! LOL I bought a manual chain tensioner from Drag Specialties. I am putting together a photo documentary to illustrate exactly what is in this video. He is exactly right and is a page I HIGHLY recommend that all Harley Owners subscribe to. HE NAILS IT. I appreciate you looking out for us Brother. Keep it Coming