My CR20 has a G10 print bed with a fake build tack surface applied as a sticker. After watching this video, I flipped the bed over and the result was amazing. The first layer surface has a mirror finish like glass. Forget the over documented and RUclipsd "Must Have" upgrades. This tip has been the single biggest improvement in my 3D printing since I started. Thanks Angus!
On the topic of making things for printers well known, something that can help clean out the nozzle are guitar strings. They're really thin, flexible, and you can buy a ton for a few bucks
lmao for a second I thought of my dad's thick metal acoustic guitar strings and I had a heart attack thinking about running those through a printer lol.
@@ironbeagle1610 I'm not sure if these are acoustic or electric. Surprisingly, it has the diameter of the string in mm on the packages. But yeah, not the lower strings with the coil, the higher pitched ones
Used G10 for custom drone frames. Recently as a transom for a boat. Awesome i can use the left overs for a print surface now, thanks!. Super useful material.
what kind of drones, have you had luck with smaller 5inch or less? if its easy to cut, i might cut out a 4inch frame, but carbon is already pretty cheap for frames that small
Thank you soooo much. I use PETG for most of my projects and over time I have destroyed around a dozen beds of all types. Since switching to G10 I have had 0 failures and I'm still using my first G10 bed. I have been using the 1.5mm sheets on both of my printers for about a month running on average 20 hours a day. Great first layers and they always release when cool. Best $12 I have ever spent plus like you said you can get them in different colors. Thanks again. Great channel, great content, keep it going!!!!
to elaborate for anyone else that stumbles in here, you want to let the temperature lower on the sheet as evenly as possible, else itll shatter as one part cools faster and bends, well its a glass like thing, glass doesnt bend it shatters. need to heat it evenly too or the same will happen if it even matters for this material. also unless itll adhere to stuff at that temperate wouldnt any sort of really flat+smooth and rigid material work (e.g. a metal sheet?)
@@Ruckusmatter Not all polymers have a glass transition temperature and most of the epoxy resins are among of them. Once the are cured the reaction is done and you have one board size molecule of polymer that can't be shaped by temperature like thermaplastics do. The only thing that is working here is pressing them flat.
It's funny that it has so many different trade names. I've never heard of G10, but I've made custom circuit boards at home for years and so I've used it heaps, but always known it as FR-4. (btw, with the cheap pcb services available now, it's pretty impractical to diy boards at home these days)
Thanks for making this video! I'd been having the exact same issues with PETG sticking too well or not at all, but I needed to print with it because PLA is too brittle for my needs - So, when I first saw this, I instantly went and bought some. Haven't had a single issue with bed adhesion since and the parts just snap right off with little to no resistance. It's a real game changer!
This is helpful! I'm helping students learn the ropes and PLA has been snapping during loading and refuses to stick. Finally got it to stick with borosilicate bed plate and gluestick, and print starts looking like a slug after about 1/2 - 3/4" height off of plate (with exception of pre-loaded gcode on sd card (a cat). I think I'll give it a go with a different filament! :) (and order some G10!!)
In case anyone is wondering, I'm still using the same sheets of G10 I got back then. One of them has even outlasted a printer of mine and continues to perform just as well on a different machine. What a lifesaving material!
I’ve been using the Elegoo Neptune 2 with the G10 bed flipped over as you mention. Works better than their Buildtak which sticks too well. Great video.
@@MakersMuse From my experience buildtak is quite good, but in the other hand I never been able to make my parts stick to much expensive ultrabase plate so everyone has to find the material that suit him well!
you are a genius! I just bought some of this for my Ender 3 Max and it was just as you claimed it would be.... a 300 x 300 mm sheet of this material in the UK was less than £10 (i bought 1.6 mm, 2 mm & 4 mm) and the glassy first layer is something to behold! So far no issues and 10 prints in the release when cooling is excellent. I've been using 60 degrees on the bed and when it gets to room temperature (around 18-20 degrees) the prints just pop off, even at close to 30 degrees prints come away with very little effort (you can't say the same for the glass beds!). Thanks for the tip!
Many knives use G10, its a very popular handle material. If it gets marked up, you can just wet sand it smooth. 320 will knock it down quick and then take it from there to however shiny you want. For a matt to glossy finish, you will not have to go too high. If you want glossy smooth like glass, you will need to use a plastic polish. Nice video!
If you want to use the thinner FR4 you can buy large sheets of thermal interface silicone. Basically this is the stuff that goes on heat sinks between heat sink and surface. Works pretty well as a low tack adhesive so you can remove the surface
It deforms if used incorrectly so clearly not beginner friendly. Companies don't want their products returned because the bed melted....no rocket science why its not used widely. Outside of nylon this seems to perform no better then pei which has none of the warping downsides.
This is why I am subscribed to you. You provide such great information on 3d printing. I am new to 3d printing and have just started my printing journey using a Anycubic mega pro 3d printer. I've only printed three prints so far and they all came out OK but man where they hard to remove from the build plate. I've never heard of this material G10 but seeing you remove your print with such ease made my jaw drop. I will definitely stay tuned for more :)
0:00 G10, what is that? 0:36 Oh, it’s FR4, the same material used in PCBs! That also has the extra advantage that you can use a PCB if you can’t find alternatives.
Same. I was like "Wow, I've heard about so many beds, even rare ones like FR4 for Nylon, but not G10. Let's find out what this mysterious material is" "Oh it's just FR4" "Oh. You can use it for more than just Nylon??"
@@KentoCommenT Isn't it the raw FR4 that gives the material the stickiness? Maybe having a ground plane on one side could work though. I'll give it a shot on my Ender 3 sometime.
Thank you for this video. Just started using g10. I have to say that this is the best upgrade I have done to my printer so far. First layer print is beautiful. I have been able to tune my bed level for amazing adhesion with no elephant foot and they basically fall off the bed when cool. Thank you very much. I have a 1/32 sheet. Bought a cheap one just to try it. Going to go to a thicker sheet even though I've had no issues with it and I've ran 20 or so prints so far, only had 1 part warp.
You are basically talking about a different material then, as the soldermask on top of the copper is another surface than the raw epoxy resin of an FR-4 PCB. If it still works for your plastics, thats great. But i guess you could end up having issues, depending on the soldermask they used.
Thanks Aungus, I found the supplier before I found your vid. Google actually led me to your vid when I was trying to research if I could use the knife makers g10 for a build plate surface. I was looking at the .5mm sheet but now seeing your results I'm going for the 1.5 and 3mm cause I want to have a crack at nylon. Thanks again and keep up the good work mate
@@MakersMuse Ah, my bad! Always learning, I thought milling it would be worse than lasering on account of the fine particles, just goes to show what I know.
@@MrJelle18 for fine particles it's usually a case of better safe than sorry, but I don't know terrible much about fiberglass or how it decides to behave when you laser or mill it
No need for bed clips with G10. It's very easy to form under heat. Just take a heat gun along the edge and use a ruler to push it squared with the corner, when it cools it'll shrink just enough for an interferrence fit.
I use a G10 build plate but with a matching magnet plate for my printer (creality K1) printing nylon mostly with no issues and no build volume interference
Dude ... THANK YOU ! I was struggling so hard with my glass print bed. Results were completely random, which was frustrating since many people have great success with it. Put kapton on it, sticked well .... to well. Then I tried G10, and it works like magic ! Transformed a very frustrating experience into a really enjoyable one, made me fall in love with my printer again :D
As soon as you showed the G10 with your old project, instantly knew it was PCB material! Looks a lot like the uncolored pcbs you see in old electronics.
Thank you for the Video! I watched your video and went to my cellar started my CNC mill grabed on of my 1.5mm FR4 sheets and milled it to fit my Ender 5 Plus. Printed some complex models with PETG. Awesome results, no problems at all!
I've been printing PETG on FR4 for the last three years. It's fantastic stuff. No glue, no spray, no tape, no mess. Great for PLA, too. Bit too sticky with TPU, but it works. :)
After hunting high and low for G10 sheets (cut to size), I eventually got my grubby paws on some, and OMW. Angus, I am sooo glad I came across this video. I've been printing on the stock glass that came with my Ender V2. It's not been bad, but G10 is the bomb. After adjusting the Z-height microswitch and doing a bed level, all I can say is WOW. Thank you so much.
I have a custom heated bed made by cutting a spiral in a single sided copper plated FR4. I have a sheet of glass on it's top as the actual printing surface, but nice to know that I can also print on the back of my heating element!
I've always had issues printing PETG, usually on the first few layers regardless of what I do. And I mostly print with much more difficult filaments such as glass reinforced nylon. Will try garolite, thanks for the share.
I know this is very old, but I also had lot of trouble with initial layer adhesion with PETG, even if I cleaned with alcohol, my trick to print PETG is to increase bed temperature to 90 degree and hot end to 250, then disable fan for the initial layer, after the initial layer bring fan and temperature to normal setting (bed to 80, hot end to 240), I had 100% success rate with this.
That's mentioned as one of its names in the video. As an Australian, I can also corroborate that it is has been very hard to find here whether you look for G10, FR4 or Garolite.
@someoneonlylol Yes and no. Those bed have typically copper on both sides, covered in solder mask. I have mine made of single side PCB without solder mask, but i still like to cover it with glass, because you won't find 3mm thick PCB easily and thinner likes to bend alot.
Had been printing with PETG for a while on my carborundum glass plate with no issues, but changed filament vendors and a large print finally did what everyone warns of and took couple small shards of the glass with it... Bought a G10 sheet due to this video, and so far have been very happy with it. Works just like the carborundum one, even using similar settings for bed temp etc, but with the benefit that I can bend the 1mm sheet to pop parts off if I'm in a hurry. TYVM for the tip and recommendation! :)
Just installed my G10 print surface on my Ender 3D printer today and I was blow away of how good the prints stick and how easy they come off when the print bed has cooled down :D Thanks for the video and you commitment to making 3D printing accessible to the lay-man like me
Will work well with Nylon and this is what Markforged uses for their print beds. Edit to add, markforged does not use a heated bed, and the platform is roughly 6mm thick... so it's extremely rigid unlike the test here with Nylon on a very thin sheet. I've printed 100s of hours on those machines with the reinforced nylon and I have yet to replace the print bed.
Tip for keeping the build plate stuck to the aluminum bed: use some silicone thermal pad between the bed and the G10 surface. It helps with getting good thermal contact, and also provides a moderately-sticky surface to keep the build plate from sliding around at all. I currently use it with my glass bed and it's worked great without any clips.
@@brentowen8857 I bought mine on Amazon. I only found one that was 200x200mm, which worked okay for my Ender 3. But you can buy another and cut strips to fit empty portions of the bed. I will mention, now that I've used it for a while, that the bottom of the glass bed needs to be clean for it to stick well to the thermal pad. This happens a lot when I remove the glass bed. If I get fingerprints on it, the bed can gradually slide out of position. A bit of alcohol will fix it up again. But test that the bed won't move after replacing it. Dust and junk can also gradually get stuck in the thermal pad and make it less effective at sticking to the bed over time. I've recently swapped to a magnetic spring steel bed with PEI on it. That thing isn't going anywhere.
Crazy hearing someone say "this stuff costs next to nothing" I know of G10 from high end hand made knives, and vapes. And g10 really raises the prices on those things lol
@@SianaGearz Two methods I have seen of cutting G10 that should make it more affordable for knives: Waterjetting, and high powered fiber lasers. Id be surprised if knife makers havent started to use products like the waser or 5kw desktop fiber lasers by now. Both are in the 20-30K range to implement and I bet would save a ton in tools.
I've been printing on an Ender 3 pro for about a year on G10. Everything sticks to this, only issue is you need either a klinky probe og bltouch type probe to do a bed mesh. I have printet Nylon, ABS, ASA mainly on this surface and i agree with you Angus. This is one of the better unknown facts that this surface just is insanely good for FDM printers.
I guess that the G10 sheet deforms because you are hitting the glass transition temperature when printing. It might be worth to experiment with higher Tg FR-4 (155 °C is common in PCB manufacturing, 170 °C is also available)
As the fiber glass is bound with epoxy resin in G10 it do not have a glass transition temperature. And I remember that 120-150°C is the point then most of epoxy resins will start to desintegrate when kept under those temperatures for longer period of time. The deformation is solely done by the forces that would otherwise cause delamination or warping.
@@0thorgal0 every polymer has a glass transition temperature. That includes epoxy. You can find the glass transition temperature of most reputable epoxies in their respective datasheets.
@@donaldasayers You are confusing concepts. Thermosets have melting points above the decomposition temperature (so, you could say they don't have a melting point). Thermoplastics, on the other hand, have melting points below decomposition temperature. Both types of polymers may have a glass transition temperature below the decomposition temperature. Look up examples on epoxies and their glass transition temperatures. This is something you can easily find by googling. PS: I was making a simplification when I said every polymer has a glass transition. Only amorphous or semi-crystalline polymers have a glass transition. Most polymers are like this, thermoset or thermoplastic.
3D printer tip of the year! As you said, a lot of printers come with a G10 print-bed with some surface on it. My TronXY X5ST came with a base G10 board, and a surface that I had to add. That surface eventually cracked due to temperature expansion and contraction, so I after watching this video I ripped off the surface and did a test-print. Amazing result, print let go with zero effort!
I’ve been having great success with smooth pei adhered to a spring steel sheet (w/ after-market magnetic base). I roughed it up with a bit of 00 steel wool and gave it a light coat of hairspray. I mainly print with petg, pla, and tpu, and all three work well. I’m printing with a Longer LK4 with a BL Touch and a slightly modified extruder to accommodate flexible filament.
When I first got into 3d printing 3 years ago, I was told to get PEI coated spring steel from a veteran printer. I was stubborn/scared because I had a slightly-warped Ender 3 bed, so I only used the borosilicate glass for flatness, utilizing hairspray and isopropyl. I went with PEI coated spring steel about 2 months ago, and I'll never go back. I only print PLA and PETG so far, and the prints stick like glue when bed is heated, and release cleanly when cooled/flexed. Use what works for you, but this $30 bed is amazing.
@@secretweaponevan PLA releases pretty easily from PEI; however, PETG on PEI requires a release agent. You might get away with no release agent for PETG on PEI for a while, but eventually you will damage the it.
@@engineer1692 like I said you might get away with no release agent when printing PETG on smooth PEI for a while, eventually you will almost certainly damage it. Don’t you notice that PETG is a lot harder to remove that PLA?
For your PETG/Glass issues: I use (genuine) 3D-Lac and this defeats the excessive stick especially if you twist the part off. This also works for TPU onto G10/FR4.
Guys... this is called epoxy resin. When printing on either carbon or fiberglass, you're printing simply on epoxy resin. If you like the properties of it, you can convert any printing surface of your choice to it by simply getting some laminating resin and putting a thin layer of it onto the surface (after sanding and degreasing it), and then harden it in your oven for some hours, according to instructions. If putting it on spring steel, you shouldn't over-bend the plate of course as the epoxy film could break. (what, on the other hand, helps in getting it off if you want to renew it) The fibers only give it their stiffness and strength, they do nothing to the surface itself.
Hint: to prevent having a bulge form at the borders because of the surface tension of the resin, you should put a sheet of wax paper below that's larger than the printing surface and overlap the borders all-around a little with resin for about a half-inch. After hardening, you can carefully break or cut it off and sand it to get clean borders. However, it won't work with some of the exotic, overly thick printing surfaces that some people use, (like, several mm thick) as the difference in height to the wax paper is too large to have any effect. (depending also on the viscosity of the resin)
You're right, but the cost and availability is what's really on display here. I work at a machine shop that does a lot of plastic work, I wonder how some of that would do... PEEK, for example, and some proprietary blends...
@@aidankilleen5889 The majority of inventions were discovered by trial & error and accidents, so, if you have access to unusual materials, I suggest trying to get your hands on some samples. However, before getting your hopes up after discovering a great, "new" material, I'd thoroughly check if it already has been discovered. In 3D printing, for example, I've seen plenty of unusual stuff exclusively in the world of highly expensive industrial 3D printers.
You do realise this exactly what 'printbite' is. I've been using the FR4 side of copper clad PCB for years. The copper gives a more even heated surface too
ooh! this is so cool Angus! Thank you for sharing!! I love printing on smooth surfaces, and I gotta admit, the idea of a pastel pink bed is wildly appealing. 😁
It looks like you took a huge bite out of that spool! Best to eat lunch before you start shooting a video, will cut down on hunger! Joking aside... I just ordered this, based on my confidence in your assessment!!! So glad you made this video!!!
This stuff is literally the only material where I could reliably get nylon to stick. The closest contender was glass, but it's still a far cry from how insanely effective this was. I finally don't hate nylon because of it lol
I hated nylon mostly because even in California scrubland with no rain all year it somehow still managed to soak up moisture and pop and fizz. Adhesion was a pain as well, I was using smooth PEI on a lulzbot mini with gluestick and it was hit or miss. Ultimately I ended up throwing away half the roll as it kept getting worse and worse with moisture like issues even though I kept it sealed up and in california with no rain in it's lifetime. I should have tried baking it at some point, but never did. I am in a much wetter area now and the thought of going back to it makes my eye twitch, heh.
@@Alluvian567 I live in GA. It’s always humid here. I’ve resorted to buying a medium size room dehumidifier, closing that room off, and running it at 100% for a day before printing Nylon. Actually have the dehumidifier’s drain tied into the A/C’s condensation water drainage line. That way it can run w/o having to empty the water. Power draw sucks when I run it like that…but it works. Afterward I turn the dehumidifier back to a reasonable humidity level and go on about my business. Since I use the same room for other things I want to avoid rusting it works out. Also, that particular room in my basement has no A/C returns or vents…so no humidity entering through the A/C directly to hamper the dehumidification process. This was my nuclear option. On the plus side…I don’t need to print from a dry box. I don’t know how low the humidity actually is in the room at 100% dehumidifier….but I do know I can feel the difference big time between that room and just outside the door.
I have starting printing everything on FR4 (Fire Retardant Material that is like G10) only sanded it a bit with 200grid sandingpaper and it was such an improvement
Glad you like it :D i use G10/FR4 for years now. Recently took the thin stuff and glued it to a spring steel sheet. That way you dont need clips, heats faster and is my absolute favorite surface :) great video 👍
@@madbull4666 Nylon....people seem to have issues getting nylon to stick to pei. If you don't print nylon G10 looks to be a waste. The storage issues of nylon make it a pain for hobbyists so its probably the reason G10 isn't very popular.
@@super_slo I frequently print PETG on a Prusa mk2.5 with standard settings with a spring steel pei bed with no issues. I do generally preheat the bed to approx 40 degrees to remove the print tho. It was my first try at flexible that ripped a hunk out of the pei! At least I think it's pei that Prusa use.
@@super_slo for powder coated beds its less of an issue I think but those with a glued on sheet tear up after a while if you don't nail the first layer height.
Markforged uses a g10 bed on their printers. The bed is about 10mm thick and machined flat. Just a glue stick layer is needed for their cf nylon (unheated bed). Really nice machines but the cost is out of my reach. As a proprietary system they're excellent from slicing with their online tool to printing.
A glass and the glue layer do the same, i use now the creality surface , but i use the glass side, its works great, its very solid "black glass",with hair spray or glue(only for abs)
So a word from someone who works at a circuit board manufacturer: Good luck getting FR4/G10. The stuff is weeks out in supply. As another note, FR4 is good, but make note it does absorb moisture to about .1% by weight. I also suggest not bending it too much, where FR4 is a great material, it does tend to be brittle, so don't bend it too much. If you start to see white spots form on it when you bend it, then you've bent it too far and started to deform the resin and glass bundles in it. FR4 is a material that's a mixture of resin and glass bundles/grains that go in a certain direction in a weave pattern. Tg is about 180ish, but note that after that it deforms. Feel free to ask me any questions about the material, it's the most common material in our shop, but we do have many, many other materials in our shop, from fiber glass, to ceramic based, teflon based, etc.
I just checked. Its very expensive here. The best cost/value surface to me is the sandblasted glasses so far. I am just making them as many i want. No adhesive need on the surface, i put water on it if i want to remove the print earlier. I like the even matte surface.
Started using G10 after I too had problems with PETG. Awesome adhesion now! Printing eSun PETG on an Ender3 settings are 245 degrees C on a .4 nozzle / 80 degrees C on the bed / 50% print speed (see on the printer) / 0.85 Z-offset. Thanks Maker's Muse!
I use the MatterHackers Garolite. It is attached to a spring-steel sheet. I’ve only used it for nylons so far - primarily use textured PEI for PLA and PETG
I am a knife fanatic and I have many knives with G10 and it’s some of the best handle material ever and I’m definitely going to pick this up I know about G10 and this video was very helpful thank you Angus
If it's the same material as PCBs then you could try printing on a custom PCB. Traces could be added on the other side for heating too, making the whole bed assembly really light. This could make 3d printers that move the bed (Prusa i3, Ender 3) print much faster and reduce ringing. Getting sponored by JLCPCB or PCBWay would probably not be too hard either :)
Uh FR4 PCB heaters are already a thing since early reprap days, cost maybe $3 for the 21cm size. But because the heater is embedded into the bottom layer, they warp and sag as they heat, they are like half a millimetre down in the middle when at operating temperature, which is a little much. This is why aluminium PCB heaters became common, they are more stable since the temperature is better equalised.
Wow, my dad had some of this stuff when I was just a kid! I wish I knew about this stuff years ago, since bed adhesion is the biggest issue I've had to deal with! The only problem with this material is the fact that both of my printers use the hot hotend to touch the bed in a grid to automatically level it, so I think it would melt it! Had this problem with buildtak too! So, I will have to change the order of the heating and leveling in the custom g-code and I will probably have to udjust the Z-offset to compensate for the thermal expansion of the nozzle! Thanks for this great video!
Re: binder clips -- Have you tried photo frame clips? They're lot smaller on the top side and worked pretty well while I used glass. Might not fit a thinner bed profile though.
I don’t own a 3D printer yet but you could try slide clips to hold your surface down they are smaller then a bulldog clip so take up less print area they and also are reusable, and surprisingly strong. You would need the appropriate sized clips for the thickness your clamping and a dispenser. Search office works to find slide clips and a slide clip dispenser.
I’ve had luck with blue painters tape. The nozzle can just print right over the stuff. The minimum I’ve found that does the job well is across each corner. Certain brands/types work better than others.
@@tbbrady huh not been aware of this thanks. Then again I bought Ultimaker bed clips, clones, and I just love them. I attached rear ones permanently with nuts, and front ones bent so they are between the nut and the spring, and they just swing out. It was only $3 total shipped and I can easily install and remove the bed, and there's no chance of clips shooting across the room and leaving a giant scratch in my monitor again.
G10 has been very common for years in knife manufacturing for scales and hard sheaths! Cool to see it being use in another hobby I am getting into. I wonder if FRN would make a decent print plate, it's extremely tough, the scales from my BM Mini Grip are insanely rigid for how thin they are when removed, always blows my mind. Not sure about heat resistance though.
Being American and into knife making, I always knew about G10, just never realized it was the same as FR4 or Garolite and never put 2 and 2 together. Great video!
Ah yes - thanks for reminding me of my first ever print surface. I used to print on fiberglass - I have some 4 and 6 mm sheets that I also use for mechanical purposes. I can confirm that the thicker sheets do work great for Nylon. As always: YMMV (your mileage may vary). There are tons of producers of this stuff and they all have their specific (epoxy) resin they use with a different max. temperature they can be used at. Regular G10 and FR4 comes with a different max. usable temperature. Regular FR4, PCB material, has a max. temperature of about 120 C which means that it will already be a bit softer at 100 C, resulting in the effects you have seen but this may also depend on the thickness of the sheet and how hard the material was pressed together in production. So for higher temperature use, you could try material from another company to see which one works best.
10:20 when having thermal runaway at extreme temps, try heating bed and hotend separately. It might be a power issue. Board is not able to cope with it. I encountered these on my Ender 3 v2 after modding it to all metal hotend, high temp thermistor etc. Happens only when going very hot.
Absolutely! I just talked to a good friend of mine who is a knife maker, he hooked me up with a couple 12' 'x 12'' x 1/16'' sheets of smooth Jade G10. He also gave me a sheet that's smooth on one side and slightly textured on the other.
I managed to put a G10 print bed onto a Prusa MK3S+. You need a some sort of single sided spring steel sheet, I happen to have a Creality one, but you need one that has the bare spring steel exposed. And you need a 1mm G10 sheet. The closest on Aliexpress is a 250mm x 250mm x 1mm sheet. Then you must set your PINDA such that it is only about 1mm above the tip of your nozzle. Set the spring steel sheet bare metal side up then clip the G10 on top of the spring steel. This really pushes the limit of the tolerance of the available space for the PINDA to work. IF you encounter the tip of the nozzle colliding with the G10, the printer will throw an error. This means your PINDA probe needs to be lowered more. If you get it right, there will be just enough space for the PINDA to complete its mesh leveling and then you can do the Live-Z adjustment
I did it and it works Really Well. My Ender magnetic bed has alternating strips of North-South, which you discover when you place a magnet on it. I bought an A4 sheet of magnetic vinyl from Office Works and cut off 6 strips 1 cm wide. To those I attached the thin type of double sided tape. I removed the tape backing, placed the strips on the bed then placed the sheet of G10 onto the strips, rubbing over it to ensure a good adhesion. The G10 always aligns exactly as it was placed, ie perfectly. It's great to be able to take the sheet off, bend the print off, then replace the G10 perfectly without effort.
Thank you, very very much!!! I got one 8x10x.093 in. Smaller than my build plate but not by much so I though I would try it before having a few cut to size. I used clips to hold it in place and started printing. I am using a CR6SE and was having problems with adhesion with the stock build plate. I had already ordered a new one but I saw your video and cancelled the order, and I am so glad I did. After I put it in place and held it with clips and started printing. Amazing!!! started printing great right off. No issues I have been having with the stock build plate!!! It only cost me 5.99+tax. So much cheaper and much better. I will go to Lowes, find a sheet with the correct thickness and have it cut to size and many as the sheet will allow.
Hey after seeing your video, I just wanted to let you know how I get a very smooth first layer. I have been glueing transparent sheets to an old print bed using a glue stick and then I smooth it out and take out any extra glue with a card. Since I’ve been doing This every print has been almost perfect! :)
Awesome, thank you! I have a magnetic aluminum/glass bed on my trusty 10 year old Makerbot Replicator 1, where the bed is aluminum, and I have glass plate with 4 magnets in the corners which get magnetized to magnets on the aluminum plate. I think I will give G10 a try by cutting it to the same shape as what my glass plate was, and simply attaching magnets. That way, I'll have a removeable G10 bed... thanks for the great video and tips!
Update: wow this worked really well, thank you!! The 1/16" (~1.5mm thick) garolite sheet was a huge save. I have been printing larger objects lately, which are a nightmare to remove off of my glass+blue painters tape build plate. I think I actually got a repetitive strain injury on my thumb because of how much I have had to dig and pry my palette knife/spatula underneath the print trying to get it off. I just printed the same large part on a garolite sheet and it came off so easily with the bending action! I think I still like putting blue painters tape on top of the garolite, because I think it adheres slightly better and gives a finish more consistent with the rest of the printed piece. However, the flexibility of the garolite sheet alone makes it worth using. I put magnets underneath the garolite sheet so that it magnetizes to my build platform, so I have a hotswappable/easily removable build plate just like I did with my glass platform. The only thing I'll have to pay attention to, which I'm not sure is an issue yet, is that the garolite sheets on McMaster Carr have a relatively large tolerance thickness. However, I think that tolerance thickness is probably if you purchase multiple sheets, whereas a small sheet (e.g. 12" x 12") seems to be within a reasonable thickness tolerance within that sheet, and it seems pretty flat. So, as long as one is using the same piece of garolite, the build plate doesn't need to be adjusted. If one uses many different sheets that have a large thickness tolerance variation, then this may become an issue (unless automatic bed leveling takes care of that, which I don't have on my trusty old Makerbot Replicator 1 duals) Thank you for this awesome tip!
GFK from AHLTec (black & shiny) goes for 9.10€+2.99€ on eBay for an Ender3-sized bed. Plain FR4 (stefftech) costs half as much, but has a matte finish instead of the shiny one. Both work very well. One aspect I like of the plain FR4 is that it's somewhat transparent, makes it possible to check the first layer from below.
Late to this party, got myself some 1mm G10 cut to size for about £3, dirt cheap. The smooth first layer and self release have been genuinely incredible to see, thank you so much hahahahahaha
Thank you Angus, I actually have a friend who's a blacksmith and makes knives. I'm pretty darn sure I've seen sheets of this in his shop. Guess I better bake some 🍪 or maybe get a 6 pack, can't go empty handed
I've been using FR4 1.5mm on my Prusa, on top of my steel bed to keep the pinda working. Just fits. Ever since I've been using it (6 months now), the prints (PLA and PETG) simply work beautifully. No needs for adhesives and after the cool down, the prints are often already fully separated on the print bed. After a lot of hassle, this makes it so much nicer. Thanks!
I use FR4 sheets straight from the beeginning. Works like a charm but i sand the sheets with 400G and higher. I keep telling myself that the prints stick better that way. You also get a matte bottom finish which i like better than the shiny finish.
Thanks for reminding me about this stuff. Back in 2018 I had bought 5 sheets that were 12 inches square. It cost me $5. But it was really thin. Too thin to use it by itself. But now I have a few printers that have steel flex plates. So I cut one of those sheets down to size and put some heat resistant double sided tape on it and stuck it to a flex plate and now it work perfectly.
My CR20 has a G10 print bed with a fake build tack surface applied as a sticker. After watching this video, I flipped the bed over and the result was amazing. The first layer surface has a mirror finish like glass. Forget the over documented and RUclipsd "Must Have" upgrades. This tip has been the single biggest improvement in my 3D printing since I started. Thanks Angus!
On the topic of making things for printers well known, something that can help clean out the nozzle are guitar strings. They're really thin, flexible, and you can buy a ton for a few bucks
lmao for a second I thought of my dad's thick metal acoustic guitar strings and I had a heart attack thinking about running those through a printer lol.
@@ironbeagle1610 I'm not sure if these are acoustic or electric. Surprisingly, it has the diameter of the string in mm on the packages. But yeah, not the lower strings with the coil, the higher pitched ones
i hadnt thought about that...and i have a bunch of used ones i wanted to recycle! thank u!
I use acupuncture needles for cleaning my nozzles.
Used G10 for custom drone frames. Recently as a transom for a boat. Awesome i can use the left overs for a print surface now, thanks!. Super useful material.
Hi Andrew!! What a surprise to find you here
It's really popular for handgun grips too.
what kind of drones, have you had luck with smaller 5inch or less? if its easy to cut, i might cut out a 4inch frame, but carbon is already pretty cheap for frames that small
I'v got G10 grips for one of my pistols, I never thought it would be used for a print surface lol.
Now that i think of it, I do have some old drone frames made from g10. I imagine it would work well on a rekon 1s lr instead of 3d printing the frame
Thank you soooo much. I use PETG for most of my projects and over time I have destroyed around a dozen beds of all types. Since switching to G10 I have had 0 failures and I'm still using my first G10 bed. I have been using the 1.5mm sheets on both of my printers for about a month running on average 20 hours a day. Great first layers and they always release when cool. Best $12 I have ever spent plus like you said you can get them in different colors. Thanks again. Great channel, great content, keep it going!!!!
Hi, I'm getting into 3d printing and I'm not sure what happens when you begin to print, does the printer heat up the bed?
if your sheet does warp just bake the sheet between 2 sheets of glass at ~130 for a couple hours then let it cool slowly
Celcius?
@@hyperspeed1313 yep. Make sure the glass is flat and cool the sheet as slowly as you can
to elaborate for anyone else that stumbles in here, you want to let the temperature lower on the sheet as evenly as possible, else itll shatter as one part cools faster and bends, well its a glass like thing, glass doesnt bend it shatters. need to heat it evenly too or the same will happen if it even matters for this material.
also unless itll adhere to stuff at that temperate wouldnt any sort of really flat+smooth and rigid material work (e.g. a metal sheet?)
@@Ruckusmatter Not all polymers have a glass transition temperature and most of the epoxy resins are among of them. Once the are cured the reaction is done and you have one board size molecule of polymer that can't be shaped by temperature like thermaplastics do. The only thing that is working here is pressing them flat.
@@0thorgal0 then mine was plastic. It was warping under heat, now it doesn't
This material has been a true game changer for me. No more issues with build plate adhesion. Thank you, thank you, thank you for making this video!!!
I've always known of G10 as "the standard" in knife handles, didn't know it was so useful elsewhere.
It's funny that it has so many different trade names. I've never heard of G10, but I've made custom circuit boards at home for years and so I've used it heaps, but always known it as FR-4. (btw, with the cheap pcb services available now, it's pretty impractical to diy boards at home these days)
Same, I only knew it was used for handgun handles, had no idea it was in PCBs.
What's up fellow knife guy!
Or grips for pistols, mainspring housings for 1911's
Same, it was a nice surprise to learn it has more applications than knife handles.
Thanks for making this video! I'd been having the exact same issues with PETG sticking too well or not at all, but I needed to print with it because PLA is too brittle for my needs - So, when I first saw this, I instantly went and bought some. Haven't had a single issue with bed adhesion since and the parts just snap right off with little to no resistance. It's a real game changer!
This is helpful! I'm helping students learn the ropes and PLA has been snapping during loading and refuses to stick. Finally got it to stick with borosilicate bed plate and gluestick, and print starts looking like a slug after about 1/2 - 3/4" height off of plate (with exception of pre-loaded gcode on sd card (a cat). I think I'll give it a go with a different filament! :) (and order some G10!!)
aight, gonna try this with new roll of PETG …
In case anyone is wondering, I'm still using the same sheets of G10 I got back then. One of them has even outlasted a printer of mine and continues to perform just as well on a different machine. What a lifesaving material!
I’ve been using the Elegoo Neptune 2 with the G10 bed flipped over as you mention. Works better than their Buildtak which sticks too well. Great video.
It's beyond me why they whack that terrible surface on an already good one!
fR4 may be better I will have to check the data sheets. PCB are made from fr4 and not g10
@@MakersMuse is Buildtak more durable than G10?
Because that would explain it.
@@MakersMuse From my experience buildtak is quite good, but in the other hand I never been able to make my parts stick to much expensive ultrabase plate so everyone has to find the material that suit him well!
🤯 never even thought about printing on that flipped side
you are a genius! I just bought some of this for my Ender 3 Max and it was just as you claimed it would be.... a 300 x 300 mm sheet of this material in the UK was less than £10 (i bought 1.6 mm, 2 mm & 4 mm) and the glassy first layer is something to behold! So far no issues and 10 prints in the release when cooling is excellent. I've been using 60 degrees on the bed and when it gets to room temperature (around 18-20 degrees) the prints just pop off, even at close to 30 degrees prints come away with very little effort (you can't say the same for the glass beds!). Thanks for the tip!
Many knives use G10, its a very popular handle material. If it gets marked up, you can just wet sand it smooth. 320 will knock it down quick and then take it from there to however shiny you want. For a matt to glossy finish, you will not have to go too high. If you want glossy smooth like glass, you will need to use a plastic polish.
Nice video!
If you want to use the thinner FR4 you can buy large sheets of thermal interface silicone. Basically this is the stuff that goes on heat sinks between heat sink and surface. Works pretty well as a low tack adhesive so you can remove the surface
Alternative title: "The print surface _they_ don't want you to know about."
Print bed companies hate him!
This one little trick they use for perfect print results...
It deforms if used incorrectly so clearly not beginner friendly. Companies don't want their products returned because the bed melted....no rocket science why its not used widely. Outside of nylon this seems to perform no better then pei which has none of the warping downsides.
@@backgammonbacon There's FR4 made for high heat, only difference is the polymer. I'd recommend that instead of G10
@@MakersMuse Thanks a lot for not being like that!
This is why I am subscribed to you. You provide such great information on 3d printing. I am new to 3d printing and have just started my printing journey using a Anycubic mega pro 3d printer. I've only printed three prints so far and they all came out OK but man where they hard to remove from the build plate. I've never heard of this material G10 but seeing you remove your print with such ease made my jaw drop. I will definitely stay tuned for more :)
i’ve been into pocket knives for years. G10 is like a like a household word for me lol
Thays exactly what I thought “G10? Like the same G10 that every knife company makes handles out of?”
My thought exactly
Hey, I heard this is where the knife bros hang out.
Ahh my people!
I had the same thing happen to me. More into fixedblades so I don't hear about g10 as often but still relatively frequently.
My jaw physically dropped when you showed the warp. Really useful info!
0:00 G10, what is that?
0:36 Oh, it’s FR4, the same material used in PCBs! That also has the extra advantage that you can use a PCB if you can’t find alternatives.
Same. I was like
"Wow, I've heard about so many beds, even rare ones like FR4 for Nylon, but not G10. Let's find out what this mysterious material is"
"Oh it's just FR4"
"Oh. You can use it for more than just Nylon??"
@@KentoCommenT fr4 is better read some of the other comments high temp and fire retardant
Hmm so I could design a PCB without copper or solder mask and have JLCPCB fab it.... Might have to give that a go
@@sonosus Wouldn't a copper ground plane each side aid in heat uniformity?
@@KentoCommenT Isn't it the raw FR4 that gives the material the stickiness? Maybe having a ground plane on one side could work though. I'll give it a shot on my Ender 3 sometime.
Thank you for this video. Just started using g10. I have to say that this is the best upgrade I have done to my printer so far. First layer print is beautiful. I have been able to tune my bed level for amazing adhesion with no elephant foot and they basically fall off the bed when cool. Thank you very much. I have a 1/32 sheet. Bought a cheap one just to try it. Going to go to a thicker sheet even though I've had no issues with it and I've ran 20 or so prints so far, only had 1 part warp.
I've been doing this since 2016!! But I have an unetched PCB, the copper sheet makes my bed temperature infinitely more reliable!
Nice idea!
That sounds brilliant! What thickness do you use, 62.5mil?
Do the copper pours cause any issues with heating times
You are basically talking about a different material then, as the soldermask on top of the copper is another surface than the raw epoxy resin of an FR-4 PCB. If it still works for your plastics, thats great. But i guess you could end up having issues, depending on the soldermask they used.
@@ProtonOne11 An unetched PCB doesn’t have any solder mask - solder mask is applied after etching
Thanks Aungus, I found the supplier before I found your vid. Google actually led me to your vid when I was trying to research if I could use the knife makers g10 for a build plate surface. I was looking at the .5mm sheet but now seeing your results I'm going for the 1.5 and 3mm cause I want to have a crack at nylon. Thanks again and keep up the good work mate
That's an awesome material! I might have some ideas for use besides just a print sheet…
Hybrid 3D print and laser cut blaster design, you say?
@@MrJelle18 Definitely never laser fibreglass, but it CNC's nicely with a carbide burr :D
@@MakersMuse Ah, my bad! Always learning, I thought milling it would be worse than lasering on account of the fine particles, just goes to show what I know.
@@MakersMuse can you elaborate? I've never used a laser cutter, why shouldn't fiberglass be laser cut?
@@MrJelle18 for fine particles it's usually a case of better safe than sorry, but I don't know terrible much about fiberglass or how it decides to behave when you laser or mill it
After months of fighting adhesion issues with the stock glass on my Ender 5 plus, I got a sheet of G10 and it works flawlessly! Excellent video!
No need for bed clips with G10. It's very easy to form under heat. Just take a heat gun along the edge and use a ruler to push it squared with the corner, when it cools it'll shrink just enough for an interferrence fit.
there is going to be some deflection upwards if you do this, leaving you with a bowl shaped bed.
I use a G10 build plate but with a matching magnet plate for my printer (creality K1) printing nylon mostly with no issues and no build volume interference
Dude ... THANK YOU ! I was struggling so hard with my glass print bed. Results were completely random, which was frustrating since many people have great success with it. Put kapton on it, sticked well .... to well. Then I tried G10, and it works like magic ! Transformed a very frustrating experience into a really enjoyable one, made me fall in love with my printer again :D
That's awesome to hear! I felt the same after discovering it haha
It's like G7, but three whole countries better
Ohhmygod, XD
I came here for relaxing print talk, and you provide shade.
Legend.
And 100x more effective
Meh, it's half G20
Garolite G-7 sheets tolerate higher temperatures. Up to 215 Degrees C. I was looking to see if anybody had tried G-7 for printing PETG.
Still using my G10 bed after a year, thanks again MM for your suggestion!
Nice! Thanks for the update. Mine never wore out either 😂
As soon as you showed the G10 with your old project, instantly knew it was PCB material! Looks a lot like the uncolored pcbs you see in old electronics.
Thank you for the Video! I watched your video and went to my cellar started my CNC mill grabed on of my 1.5mm FR4 sheets and milled it to fit my Ender 5 Plus. Printed some complex models with PETG. Awesome results, no problems at all!
I've been printing PETG on FR4 for the last three years. It's fantastic stuff. No glue, no spray, no tape, no mess. Great for PLA, too. Bit too sticky with TPU, but it works. :)
After hunting high and low for G10 sheets (cut to size), I eventually got my grubby paws on some, and OMW. Angus, I am sooo glad I came across this video. I've been printing on the stock glass that came with my Ender V2. It's not been bad, but G10 is the bomb.
After adjusting the Z-height microswitch and doing a bed level, all I can say is WOW.
Thank you so much.
Nice! I felt the same way when I first tried it haha. Glad you could track some down .
I have a custom heated bed made by cutting a spiral in a single sided copper plated FR4. I have a sheet of glass on it's top as the actual printing surface, but nice to know that I can also print on the back of my heating element!
It really works! I peeled the surface off the default Ender3 and hiding beneath, G10. Thanks for sharing. Definitely earned this sub
I've always had issues printing PETG, usually on the first few layers regardless of what I do. And I mostly print with much more difficult filaments such as glass reinforced nylon. Will try garolite, thanks for the share.
I know this is very old, but I also had lot of trouble with initial layer adhesion with PETG, even if I cleaned with alcohol, my trick to print PETG is to increase bed temperature to 90 degree and hot end to 250, then disable fan for the initial layer, after the initial layer bring fan and temperature to normal setting (bed to 80, hot end to 240), I had 100% success rate with this.
I just got this and it's amazing. Sticks perfectly and comes off easily.
You may have better luck searching for FR4, which is the fire retardant version of G10 used in printer circuit boards. :)
FR4 is also great for model rocket fins and bulkheads.
That's mentioned as one of its names in the video. As an Australian, I can also corroborate that it is has been very hard to find here whether you look for G10, FR4 or Garolite.
Hold up if its similiar to FR4 cant you print directly on the reprap heated bed pcb o_o
@someoneonlylol Yes and no. Those bed have typically copper on both sides, covered in solder mask. I have mine made of single side PCB without solder mask, but i still like to cover it with glass, because you won't find 3mm thick PCB easily and thinner likes to bend alot.
@@t_z1030 Maybe try Glass Phenolic Plastic Sheet, the seller i found on ebay had this in his description
Had been printing with PETG for a while on my carborundum glass plate with no issues, but changed filament vendors and a large print finally did what everyone warns of and took couple small shards of the glass with it... Bought a G10 sheet due to this video, and so far have been very happy with it. Works just like the carborundum one, even using similar settings for bed temp etc, but with the benefit that I can bend the 1mm sheet to pop parts off if I'm in a hurry. TYVM for the tip and recommendation! :)
Awesome video. Love the extent of the research you put into every project. Keep it up.
Every pocket knife enthusiast is like "Psh I know all about G10!"
You already know 😎
Been using this for years. Only I buff it with sandpaper so I don't have a glossy underside. Works like a charm
Ah, thanks. But let's remind each other about security: Masks, maybe wet sanding, maybe working outside.
Just installed my G10 print surface on my Ender 3D printer today and I was blow away of how good the prints stick and how easy they come off when the print bed has cooled down :D Thanks for the video and you commitment to making 3D printing accessible to the lay-man like me
Bought G10 2mm. Works realy well so much better than original glass plate on ender 3 v2. Amazing. Sticks every time. Amazing stuff. Thank👍👍👍🇱🇻
Awesome!
"Softer than your nozzle" sounds like an Aussie insult.😂
Will work well with Nylon and this is what Markforged uses for their print beds. Edit to add, markforged does not use a heated bed, and the platform is roughly 6mm thick... so it's extremely rigid unlike the test here with Nylon on a very thin sheet. I've printed 100s of hours on those machines with the reinforced nylon and I have yet to replace the print bed.
They use G10 or FR4 or what?
@@huberttrzewik5644 they won't tell you, but it's probably FR4.
Tip for keeping the build plate stuck to the aluminum bed: use some silicone thermal pad between the bed and the G10 surface. It helps with getting good thermal contact, and also provides a moderately-sticky surface to keep the build plate from sliding around at all. I currently use it with my glass bed and it's worked great without any clips.
Where do you get this thermal pad that is large enough?
@@brentowen8857 I bought mine on Amazon. I only found one that was 200x200mm, which worked okay for my Ender 3. But you can buy another and cut strips to fit empty portions of the bed.
I will mention, now that I've used it for a while, that the bottom of the glass bed needs to be clean for it to stick well to the thermal pad. This happens a lot when I remove the glass bed. If I get fingerprints on it, the bed can gradually slide out of position. A bit of alcohol will fix it up again. But test that the bed won't move after replacing it. Dust and junk can also gradually get stuck in the thermal pad and make it less effective at sticking to the bed over time.
I've recently swapped to a magnetic spring steel bed with PEI on it. That thing isn't going anywhere.
Crazy hearing someone say "this stuff costs next to nothing" I know of G10 from high end hand made knives, and vapes. And g10 really raises the prices on those things lol
Well I guess compared to speciality print bed products it's cheap heh
It's an inexpensive material that eats tools for breakfast. Yes, products made from it are going to be justifiably expensive.
@@SianaGearz haha very true, the speed at which it blunts carbide burrs is incredible. Even under a waterbath.
@@SianaGearz Two methods I have seen of cutting G10 that should make it more affordable for knives: Waterjetting, and high powered fiber lasers. Id be surprised if knife makers havent started to use products like the waser or 5kw desktop fiber lasers by now. Both are in the 20-30K range to implement and I bet would save a ton in tools.
The material is cheap. Machining it is expensive
Just received my G10 sheets. Wow this stuff is amazing.
Thanks alot for making this video.
Nice! Thanks for letting me know
You are right, I have never heard of this! That’s insane
Hey Angus congrats on hitting the 1 million subscriber mark and thanks for making this video; I'll be testing G10 out!
did anyone realize that he is wearing an LTT t-shirt?
If you look back in old videos you see his LTT hoodie ;-)
Literally the first thing I noticed
Wow, they cost so much to get shipped to Australia
i didnt,lol
I've been printing on an Ender 3 pro for about a year on G10. Everything sticks to this, only issue is you need either a klinky probe og bltouch type probe to do a bed mesh. I have printet Nylon, ABS, ASA mainly on this surface and i agree with you Angus. This is one of the better unknown facts that this surface just is insanely good for FDM printers.
I guess that the G10 sheet deforms because you are hitting the glass transition temperature when printing. It might be worth to experiment with higher Tg FR-4 (155 °C is common in PCB manufacturing, 170 °C is also available)
As the fiber glass is bound with epoxy resin in G10 it do not have a glass transition temperature. And I remember that 120-150°C is the point then most of epoxy resins will start to desintegrate when kept under those temperatures for longer period of time. The deformation is solely done by the forces that would otherwise cause delamination or warping.
@@0thorgal0 every polymer has a glass transition temperature. That includes epoxy. You can find the glass transition temperature of most reputable epoxies in their respective datasheets.
@@mariohernandez1111 Er no, thermosets don't
@@donaldasayers You are confusing concepts. Thermosets have melting points above the decomposition temperature (so, you could say they don't have a melting point). Thermoplastics, on the other hand, have melting points below decomposition temperature. Both types of polymers may have a glass transition temperature below the decomposition temperature.
Look up examples on epoxies and their glass transition temperatures. This is something you can easily find by googling.
PS: I was making a simplification when I said every polymer has a glass transition. Only amorphous or semi-crystalline polymers have a glass transition. Most polymers are like this, thermoset or thermoplastic.
Aka FR5
3D printer tip of the year!
As you said, a lot of printers come with a G10 print-bed with some surface on it. My TronXY X5ST came with a base G10 board, and a surface that I had to add. That surface eventually cracked due to temperature expansion and contraction, so I after watching this video I ripped off the surface and did a test-print.
Amazing result, print let go with zero effort!
I’ve been having great success with smooth pei adhered to a spring steel sheet (w/ after-market magnetic base). I roughed it up with a bit of 00 steel wool and gave it a light coat of hairspray. I mainly print with petg, pla, and tpu, and all three work well. I’m printing with a Longer LK4 with a BL Touch and a slightly modified extruder to accommodate flexible filament.
When I first got into 3d printing 3 years ago, I was told to get PEI coated spring steel from a veteran printer.
I was stubborn/scared because I had a slightly-warped Ender 3 bed, so I only used the borosilicate glass for flatness, utilizing hairspray and isopropyl.
I went with PEI coated spring steel about 2 months ago, and I'll never go back.
I only print PLA and PETG so far, and the prints stick like glue when bed is heated, and release cleanly when cooled/flexed.
Use what works for you, but this $30 bed is amazing.
@@secretweaponevan PLA releases pretty easily from PEI; however, PETG on PEI requires a release agent. You might get away with no release agent for PETG on PEI for a while, but eventually you will damage the it.
@@Vortex-gz8se I've been printing with PETG and PLA on PEI spring steel sheet at 60C with no need for release agent.
@@engineer1692 like I said you might get away with no release agent when printing PETG on smooth PEI for a while, eventually you will almost certainly damage it. Don’t you notice that PETG is a lot harder to remove that PLA?
For your PETG/Glass issues: I use (genuine) 3D-Lac and this defeats the excessive stick especially if you twist the part off. This also works for TPU onto G10/FR4.
Guys... this is called epoxy resin. When printing on either carbon or fiberglass, you're printing simply on epoxy resin. If you like the properties of it, you can convert any printing surface of your choice to it by simply getting some laminating resin and putting a thin layer of it onto the surface (after sanding and degreasing it), and then harden it in your oven for some hours, according to instructions. If putting it on spring steel, you shouldn't over-bend the plate of course as the epoxy film could break. (what, on the other hand, helps in getting it off if you want to renew it) The fibers only give it their stiffness and strength, they do nothing to the surface itself.
Hint: to prevent having a bulge form at the borders because of the surface tension of the resin, you should put a sheet of wax paper below that's larger than the printing surface and overlap the borders all-around a little with resin for about a half-inch. After hardening, you can carefully break or cut it off and sand it to get clean borders.
However, it won't work with some of the exotic, overly thick printing surfaces that some people use, (like, several mm thick) as the difference in height to the wax paper is too large to have any effect. (depending also on the viscosity of the resin)
You're right, but the cost and availability is what's really on display here. I work at a machine shop that does a lot of plastic work, I wonder how some of that would do... PEEK, for example, and some proprietary blends...
@@aidankilleen5889 The majority of inventions were discovered by trial & error and accidents, so, if you have access to unusual materials, I suggest trying to get your hands on some samples. However, before getting your hopes up after discovering a great, "new" material, I'd thoroughly check if it already has been discovered. In 3D printing, for example, I've seen plenty of unusual stuff exclusively in the world of highly expensive industrial 3D printers.
@@aidankilleen5889 Regarding PEEK - I think I've already seen printing surfaces made from it on a manufacturer site of industrial 3D printers.
what about the dimensional stability under heat part?
Thanks for the shout-out, much appreciated 👍. We're glad you like G10.
Thanks for being a great local supplier! It's good stuff.
You do realise this exactly what 'printbite' is. I've been using the FR4 side of copper clad PCB for years. The copper gives a more even heated surface too
Good damn, I like you’re content, straight to the point, the pros and cons, links🤟🏻, you’re amazing
ooh! this is so cool Angus! Thank you for sharing!! I love printing on smooth surfaces, and I gotta admit, the idea of a pastel pink bed is wildly appealing. 😁
Pink makes everything better :D
It looks like you took a huge bite out of that spool! Best to eat lunch before you start shooting a video, will cut down on hunger! Joking aside... I just ordered this, based on my confidence in your assessment!!! So glad you made this video!!!
This stuff is literally the only material where I could reliably get nylon to stick. The closest contender was glass, but it's still a far cry from how insanely effective this was.
I finally don't hate nylon because of it lol
I hated nylon mostly because even in California scrubland with no rain all year it somehow still managed to soak up moisture and pop and fizz. Adhesion was a pain as well, I was using smooth PEI on a lulzbot mini with gluestick and it was hit or miss. Ultimately I ended up throwing away half the roll as it kept getting worse and worse with moisture like issues even though I kept it sealed up and in california with no rain in it's lifetime. I should have tried baking it at some point, but never did. I am in a much wetter area now and the thought of going back to it makes my eye twitch, heh.
Could you do it without using a enclosure or draft shield?
@@xiaorulez not a chance hahaha
@@Alluvian567
I live in GA. It’s always humid here.
I’ve resorted to buying a medium size room dehumidifier, closing that room off, and running it at 100% for a day before printing Nylon. Actually have the dehumidifier’s drain tied into the A/C’s condensation water drainage line. That way it can run w/o having to empty the water.
Power draw sucks when I run it like that…but it works. Afterward I turn the dehumidifier back to a reasonable humidity level and go on about my business.
Since I use the same room for other things I want to avoid rusting it works out.
Also, that particular room in my basement has no A/C returns or vents…so no humidity entering through the A/C directly to hamper the dehumidification process.
This was my nuclear option. On the plus side…I don’t need to print from a dry box. I don’t know how low the humidity actually is in the room at 100% dehumidifier….but I do know I can feel the difference big time between that room and just outside the door.
1 minute into the video and im already looking on ebay to buy some! Awesome video yet again mate!
I have starting printing everything on FR4 (Fire Retardant Material that is like G10) only sanded it a bit with 200grid sandingpaper and it was such an improvement
Glad you like it :D i use G10/FR4 for years now. Recently took the thin stuff and glued it to a spring steel sheet. That way you dont need clips, heats faster and is my absolute favorite surface :) great video 👍
Just wondering why use this over spring steel suck as the pei bases? Most people have excellent quality from using just that.
@@madbull4666 Nylon....people seem to have issues getting nylon to stick to pei. If you don't print nylon G10 looks to be a waste. The storage issues of nylon make it a pain for hobbyists so its probably the reason G10 isn't very popular.
Is there much truth in the stories of destroying a pei sheet when printing PETG? I was afraid to try PETG as my first print on my new pei bed...
@@super_slo I frequently print PETG on a Prusa mk2.5 with standard settings with a spring steel pei bed with no issues. I do generally preheat the bed to approx 40 degrees to remove the print tho. It was my first try at flexible that ripped a hunk out of the pei! At least I think it's pei that Prusa use.
@@super_slo for powder coated beds its less of an issue I think but those with a glued on sheet tear up after a while if you don't nail the first layer height.
Thanks!
Markforged uses a g10 bed on their printers. The bed is about 10mm thick and machined flat. Just a glue stick layer is needed for their cf nylon (unheated bed). Really nice machines but the cost is out of my reach. As a proprietary system they're excellent from slicing with their online tool to printing.
Wait really? We have 2 markforgeds at my robotics team, I never knew it was garolite
A glass and the glue layer do the same, i use now the creality surface , but i use the glass side, its works great, its very solid "black glass",with hair spray or glue(only for abs)
@@картошка-т5э Next time you use it look at the bed and you can see the pattern of the woven fiberglass fabric in the surface
So a word from someone who works at a circuit board manufacturer:
Good luck getting FR4/G10. The stuff is weeks out in supply. As another note, FR4 is good, but make note it does absorb moisture to about .1% by weight. I also suggest not bending it too much, where FR4 is a great material, it does tend to be brittle, so don't bend it too much. If you start to see white spots form on it when you bend it, then you've bent it too far and started to deform the resin and glass bundles in it.
FR4 is a material that's a mixture of resin and glass bundles/grains that go in a certain direction in a weave pattern. Tg is about 180ish, but note that after that it deforms.
Feel free to ask me any questions about the material, it's the most common material in our shop, but we do have many, many other materials in our shop, from fiber glass, to ceramic based, teflon based, etc.
I just checked. Its very expensive here. The best cost/value surface to me is the sandblasted glasses so far. I am just making them as many i want. No adhesive need on the surface, i put water on it if i want to remove the print earlier. I like the even matte surface.
Does sandblasted glass require heatbed for printing pla and petg ?
Started using G10 after I too had problems with PETG. Awesome adhesion now! Printing eSun PETG on an Ender3 settings are 245 degrees C on a .4 nozzle / 80 degrees C on the bed / 50% print speed (see on the printer) / 0.85 Z-offset. Thanks Maker's Muse!
I use the MatterHackers Garolite. It is attached to a spring-steel sheet. I’ve only used it for nylons so far - primarily use textured PEI for PLA and PETG
I am a knife fanatic and I have many knives with G10 and it’s some of the best handle material ever and I’m definitely going to pick this up I know about G10 and this video was very helpful thank you Angus
If it's the same material as PCBs then you could try printing on a custom PCB. Traces could be added on the other side for heating too, making the whole bed assembly really light. This could make 3d printers that move the bed (Prusa i3, Ender 3) print much faster and reduce ringing. Getting sponored by JLCPCB or PCBWay would probably not be too hard either :)
Uh FR4 PCB heaters are already a thing since early reprap days, cost maybe $3 for the 21cm size. But because the heater is embedded into the bottom layer, they warp and sag as they heat, they are like half a millimetre down in the middle when at operating temperature, which is a little much. This is why aluminium PCB heaters became common, they are more stable since the temperature is better equalised.
Wow, my dad had some of this stuff when I was just a kid! I wish I knew about this stuff years ago, since bed adhesion is the biggest issue I've had to deal with! The only problem with this material is the fact that both of my printers use the hot hotend to touch the bed in a grid to automatically level it, so I think it would melt it! Had this problem with buildtak too! So, I will have to change the order of the heating and leveling in the custom g-code and I will probably have to udjust the Z-offset to compensate for the thermal expansion of the nozzle! Thanks for this great video!
Once you score the board with a knife bend it the other way, AWAY from the cut and it snaps in half much easier!
Never heard of this. I’m certain I would’ve never heard of this if it weren’t for that Maker’s Muse! Thanks Angus.
Re: binder clips -- Have you tried photo frame clips? They're lot smaller on the top side and worked pretty well while I used glass. Might not fit a thinner bed profile though.
Yeah I just find them too fiddly to attach but could be a lower profile option!
I don’t own a 3D printer yet but you could try slide clips to hold your surface down they are smaller then a bulldog clip so take up less print area they and also are reusable, and surprisingly strong.
You would need the appropriate sized clips for the thickness your clamping and a dispenser.
Search office works to find slide clips and a slide clip dispenser.
I’ve had luck with blue painters tape. The nozzle can just print right over the stuff. The minimum I’ve found that does the job well is across each corner. Certain brands/types work better than others.
@@tbbrady huh not been aware of this thanks.
Then again I bought Ultimaker bed clips, clones, and I just love them. I attached rear ones permanently with nuts, and front ones bent so they are between the nut and the spring, and they just swing out. It was only $3 total shipped and I can easily install and remove the bed, and there's no chance of clips shooting across the room and leaving a giant scratch in my monitor again.
See my tip elsewhere about using magnetic vinyl strips. It works incredibly well.
FR4 is my favorite material for keyboard plates as well, glad to see that it's just a valuable material no matter what hobby I get into!
G10 has been very common for years in knife manufacturing for scales and hard sheaths! Cool to see it being use in another hobby I am getting into.
I wonder if FRN would make a decent print plate, it's extremely tough, the scales from my BM Mini Grip are insanely rigid for how thin they are when removed, always blows my mind. Not sure about heat resistance though.
Being American and into knife making, I always knew about G10, just never realized it was the same as FR4 or Garolite and never put 2 and 2 together. Great video!
FR4 might have fire retardant in it and being more resistant to higher temps. I have no experience in it, just read this other comments.
Ah yes - thanks for reminding me of my first ever print surface.
I used to print on fiberglass - I have some 4 and 6 mm sheets that I also use for mechanical purposes. I can confirm that the thicker sheets do work great for Nylon.
As always: YMMV (your mileage may vary). There are tons of producers of this stuff and they all have their specific (epoxy) resin they use with a different max. temperature they can be used at. Regular G10 and FR4 comes with a different max. usable temperature. Regular FR4, PCB material, has a max. temperature of about 120 C which means that it will already be a bit softer at 100 C, resulting in the effects you have seen but this may also depend on the thickness of the sheet and how hard the material was pressed together in production.
So for higher temperature use, you could try material from another company to see which one works best.
Angus, you caused a run on G10! A number of ebay stores are now sold out. The 1/16 inch has been working great on my ender3's. Thanks for the tip!
I should have bought shares haha
10:20 when having thermal runaway at extreme temps, try heating bed and hotend separately. It might be a power issue. Board is not able to cope with it.
I encountered these on my Ender 3 v2 after modding it to all metal hotend, high temp thermistor etc. Happens only when going very hot.
Never heard of this before this video, I went ahead and ordered a sheet for my 3D printer and it's pretty amazing!
This is the plastic they've been using for knife scales for so many years right?
Absolutely! I just talked to a good friend of mine who is a knife maker, he hooked me up with a couple 12' 'x 12'' x 1/16'' sheets of smooth Jade G10. He also gave me a sheet that's smooth on one side and slightly textured on the other.
He literally says he bought it from a knife maker's shop like 3 minutes in.
I managed to put a G10 print bed onto a Prusa MK3S+. You need a some sort of single sided spring steel sheet, I happen to have a Creality one, but you need one that has the bare spring steel exposed. And you need a 1mm G10 sheet. The closest on Aliexpress is a 250mm x 250mm x 1mm sheet. Then you must set your PINDA such that it is only about 1mm above the tip of your nozzle. Set the spring steel sheet bare metal side up then clip the G10 on top of the spring steel. This really pushes the limit of the tolerance of the available space for the PINDA to work. IF you encounter the tip of the nozzle colliding with the G10, the printer will throw an error. This means your PINDA probe needs to be lowered more. If you get it right, there will be just enough space for the PINDA to complete its mesh leveling and then you can do the Live-Z adjustment
I wonder if adding magnetic pads to the Ender 3 plate and the base of the G10 will work. Has anyone had layer shifting with this method?
In theory it could work.
Personally, if I did that I'd also add some kind of indexing method to keep sheet shifting to a minimum.
I did it and it works Really Well. My Ender magnetic bed has alternating strips of North-South, which you discover when you place a magnet on it.
I bought an A4 sheet of magnetic vinyl from Office Works and cut off 6 strips 1 cm wide. To those I attached the thin type of double sided tape. I removed the tape backing, placed the strips on the bed then placed the sheet of G10 onto the strips, rubbing over it to ensure a good adhesion. The G10 always aligns exactly as it was placed, ie perfectly.
It's great to be able to take the sheet off, bend the print off, then replace the G10 perfectly without effort.
@@gryphonista Thank you for the reply. Sounds promising. What's the thickness of the magnetic vinyl?
Thank you, very very much!!! I got one 8x10x.093 in. Smaller than my build plate but not by much so I though I would try it before having a few cut to size. I used clips to hold it in place and started printing. I am using a CR6SE and was having problems with adhesion with the stock build plate. I had already ordered a new one but I saw your video and cancelled the order, and I am so glad I did.
After I put it in place and held it with clips and started printing. Amazing!!! started printing great right off. No issues I have been having with the stock build plate!!! It only cost me 5.99+tax. So much cheaper and much better. I will go to Lowes, find a sheet with the correct thickness and have it cut to size and many as the sheet will allow.
Hey after seeing your video, I just wanted to let you know how I get a very smooth first layer. I have been glueing transparent sheets to an old print bed using a glue stick and then I smooth it out and take out any extra glue with a card. Since I’ve been doing This every print has been almost perfect! :)
Awesome, thank you! I have a magnetic aluminum/glass bed on my trusty 10 year old Makerbot Replicator 1, where the bed is aluminum, and I have glass plate with 4 magnets in the corners which get magnetized to magnets on the aluminum plate. I think I will give G10 a try by cutting it to the same shape as what my glass plate was, and simply attaching magnets. That way, I'll have a removeable G10 bed... thanks for the great video and tips!
Update: wow this worked really well, thank you!! The 1/16" (~1.5mm thick) garolite sheet was a huge save. I have been printing larger objects lately, which are a nightmare to remove off of my glass+blue painters tape build plate. I think I actually got a repetitive strain injury on my thumb because of how much I have had to dig and pry my palette knife/spatula underneath the print trying to get it off.
I just printed the same large part on a garolite sheet and it came off so easily with the bending action!
I think I still like putting blue painters tape on top of the garolite, because I think it adheres slightly better and gives a finish more consistent with the rest of the printed piece. However, the flexibility of the garolite sheet alone makes it worth using. I put magnets underneath the garolite sheet so that it magnetizes to my build platform, so I have a hotswappable/easily removable build plate just like I did with my glass platform.
The only thing I'll have to pay attention to, which I'm not sure is an issue yet, is that the garolite sheets on McMaster Carr have a relatively large tolerance thickness. However, I think that tolerance thickness is probably if you purchase multiple sheets, whereas a small sheet (e.g. 12" x 12") seems to be within a reasonable thickness tolerance within that sheet, and it seems pretty flat. So, as long as one is using the same piece of garolite, the build plate doesn't need to be adjusted. If one uses many different sheets that have a large thickness tolerance variation, then this may become an issue (unless automatic bed leveling takes care of that, which I don't have on my trusty old Makerbot Replicator 1 duals)
Thank you for this awesome tip!
in germany its seems like it's called: GFK (Glasfaserverstärkter Kunststoff ( Fiberglass reinforced Plastic )) and it's expensive XD
I found it for less than 10€ a sheet. The professional version HGW 2372 (Glashartgewebeplatte) is expensive though
GFK from AHLTec (black & shiny) goes for 9.10€+2.99€ on eBay for an Ender3-sized bed. Plain FR4 (stefftech) costs half as much, but has a matte finish instead of the shiny one. Both work very well. One aspect I like of the plain FR4 is that it's somewhat transparent, makes it possible to check the first layer from below.
You're unreasonably happy and I love it
Brb, replacing the print surfaces for our PETG headphone parts!
Late to this party, got myself some 1mm G10 cut to size for about £3, dirt cheap. The smooth first layer and self release have been genuinely incredible to see, thank you so much hahahahahaha
haha, nice!
Thank you Angus, I actually have a friend who's a blacksmith and makes knives. I'm pretty darn sure I've seen sheets of this in his shop. Guess I better bake some 🍪 or maybe get a 6 pack, can't go empty handed
I've been using FR4 1.5mm on my Prusa, on top of my steel bed to keep the pinda working. Just fits. Ever since I've been using it (6 months now), the prints (PLA and PETG) simply work beautifully. No needs for adhesives and after the cool down, the prints are often already fully separated on the print bed. After a lot of hassle, this makes it so much nicer. Thanks!
Help! I've entered G10 into Pronterface several times and my print surface hasn't changed yet?
🤣
That's hilarious. I'm actually a knifemaker that recently got into 3d printing. Great to know g10 has several uses. Thanks for the tip, Angus!!
I use FR4 sheets straight from the beeginning. Works like a charm but i sand the sheets with 400G and higher. I keep telling myself that the prints stick better that way. You also get a matte bottom finish which i like better than the shiny finish.
Same with carbon fiber sheets. They work as very similar and are even stiffer.
Thanks for reminding me about this stuff. Back in 2018 I had bought 5 sheets that were 12 inches square. It cost me $5. But it was really thin. Too thin to use it by itself. But now I have a few printers that have steel flex plates. So I cut one of those sheets down to size and put some heat resistant double sided tape on it and stuck it to a flex plate and now it work perfectly.
Real enthusiasts take a 0.5mm sheet and glue it to a spring steel sheet with 3M 468mp.
Do you mean "springy"?
@@mozkitolife5437 no, it's called spring steel. It's a special alloy that springs are made from.
@@SianaGearz Cheers.