Some Background on 1 Clement with Stephen Boyce
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
- I was joined by Dr. Stephen Boyce of City Light Church who has been doing a great deal of in-depth study into the epistle from the church at Rome to the church at Corinth. Enjoy!
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Watching from Australia 🇦🇺 I watched the full show & absolutely loved it! It would be great if you could do another show on this
1Clem 7:4
Let us fix our eyes on the blood of Christ and understand how
precious it is unto His Father, because being shed for our salvation it
won for the whole world the grace of repentance. Key words...for the WHOLE WORLD
Calvinist are heretics.
All you have to do is read the next sentence and clement defines what the whole world means. 1 Clem 7:5 “Let us turn to every age that has passed, and learn that, from generation to generation, the Lord has granted a place of repentance to all such as would be converted unto Him”.
Obviously you don’t want to believe what clement says so instead of reading in context you cherry pick to try and support your tradition.
@@toddstracke9267obviously you didn’t read my other post about that same text.
@@palabraviva5840 I just saw it. Not sure why you would separate the two verses, especially when your understanding of “whole world” falls flat on its face in light of the very next sentence. I mean this respectfully, you’re not understanding what clement is saying. He is making it clear that there is a specificity to those whom God grants repentance to and it is for the sake of actually bringing them to repentance, not simply providing the means for them to repent and then man freely choosing whether they want to or not. Read the very next chapter in chapter 8. Clement uses many examples from the scriptures of God’s heart towards sinners, and he summarizes it with the statement in the last verse of chapter 8, “Desiring, therefore, that all His beloved should be partakers of repentance, He has, by His almighty will, established [these declarations]”. So Clement’s entire point from chapter 7-8 is that God has a beloved people, whom He desires that all be partakers of repentance. There is absolutely nothing in context of chapters 7 and 8 that shows “whole world” means what you’re trying to insert into it.
17:00 they show where 1 Clement is quoting Revelation’s quote from Isaiah where John adds additional material not found in the Septuagint. This demonstrates 1 Clement, which was written in the late first century, was written AFTER Revelation since it quotes it. This means Revelation was also written in the first century. Earlier, they also show 1 Clement potentially quotes 2 Peter, which would also place 2 Peter in the first century, not the second.
1 Clement was written before 70AD. The letter talks about the second temple still standing. So, by that it means that the book of Revelation was written before 70AD also.
@@thomasglass9491 or Revelation is quoting 1 Clement, as the earlier dating for Revelation is the supported either historically nor internally from the text itself.
@BornAgainRN Internal and external evidence is clear that Revelation was written before the Jewish sages.
1 Clement is quoting Revelation as a source of theology, I see almost impossible that is viceversa. As Revelation quoting from 1 Clement.
@@thomasglass9491 Revelation was written near the end of Emperor Domitian's reign (AD 81-96). Although some date it during Nero's reign (AD. 54-68), their arguments are unconvincing & conflict with the view of the early church. Writing in the 2nd Century, Irenaeus declared that Revelation had been written toward the end of Domitian's reign. Later writers, such as Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Victorinus (who wrote one of the earliest commentaries on Revelation), Eusebius, & Jerome confirm the Domitian date.
The spiritual decline of the 7 churches (chapters 2 & 3) also argues for a later date. Those churches were strong & spiritually healthy in the mid-60s, when Paul last ministered in Asia Minor. The brief time between Paul's ministry there & the end of Nero's reign was too short for such a decline to have occurred. The longer time gap also explains the rise of the heretical sect known as the Nicolatians (Rev. 2:6,15), who are not mentioned in Paul's letters, not even to one or more of these same churches, such as Ephesians. Finally, dating Revelation during Nero's reign does not allow time for John's ministry in Asia Minor to reach the point at which the authorities would have felt the need to exile him.
So, assuming the earlier dating of 1 Clement is correct, that it was written before AD 70, then Revelation would be citing 1 Clement. But assuming 1 Clement is citing Revelation, then it would have to have been written towards the end of the first century. Regardless of which is correct, the earlier dating of Revelation is not possible.
@BornAgainRN That’s the same arguments that a late day says. Irenaeus quote is confusing. We don’t know if he saying that the vision was seen during Domitian’s time or John himself was seen during Domitian’s time. Most probably was John was seen during Domitian’s time because Irenaeus knew about 1 Clement, and 1 Clement quotes Revelation.
The church fathers are disqualified because as Dr. Kenneth Gentry jr says, they quoted Irenaeus but if his quote has some doubt, so the church fathers.
Paul ministry and Nero was not short, it has some years, and Nero fulfilled everything that was prophesied.
The early date is the best date because of the evidence is overwhelming. Late date is just a error of interpretation of Irenaeus.
Actually the churches were not healthy during the 60’s. That’s is argument done by late date advocates, but their arguments failed to take notice is Paul’s date of death. They depend if a late date of his death. But scholars now have gone with a earlier date for his death, and the argument of the churches fails.
Is impossible that Revelation quotes 1 Clement because it is clear in the context of 1 Clement that he is the one quoting something as scripture. That verse is only in Revelation.
AND 1Clem 7:5
Let us review all the generations in turn, and learn how from
generation to generation the Master hath given a place for repentance
unto them that desire to turn to Him. key words... unto them that DESIRE to turn to Him
1Clem 12:7
And moreover they gave her a sign, that she should hang out from
her house a scarlet thread, thereby showing beforehand that through
the blood of the Lord there shall be redemption unto all them that
believe and hope on God.
1 clement teaches without doubt that god almighty, the father alone is one true God. I love it so much. Why don’t you believe what Clement clearly teaches?
1 Clement 35:4 seems to be a reference to 2 Peter 1:10. “Let us therefore make every effort to be found in the number (the elect) of those who patiently wait for him...”. (1 Clement 35:4). “Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain His calling and choosing you...”. (2 Peter 1:10. 1977 NASB)
Yup. It seems like we have a say if we’re in that number or not.
How anyone can be a Calvinist is beyond me - ridiculous
He quotes an apocryphal work right before his reference to Esther
I think that Clement is actually the writer of Hebrews.
Clement, bishop of Rome (pope) at the end of the first century, when the apostle John was still alive.
Actually, the first man who was specifically proclaimed "Pope" was Boniface the 3rd in 610 AD.
@@mitchellc4what about the 99.9% of people who never heard?
@jamestrotter3162 the office was still there
What is the software used on the screen to mark up the text?
What translation of 1Clement is this? I'd like to download it and read it myself!
Dr. White was using the Lightfoot (Apostolic Fathers) version of 1 Clement. He mentioned that he was using Accordance Bible Software, but it looks like the mobile app.
@@mitchellc4
That is the gospel of the kingdom, but that is not the gospel of the grace of God, which is found in 1 Cor 15:1-4, the gospel you are spreading doesn’t save souls from hell, while Paul’s gospel does.
Has anyone got the link to that paper?
Would gladly appreciate it :)
Athanasius himself no council was even needed, as the Bishop of Rome had already offered definitive judgment! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink
Did Christians in the early Church reading Paul's letter to the Church of Laodicea, know it was not Holy Scripture? The oral teachings of the 7 Apostles who never wrote anything down, are also the Word of God!
Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink
I love James White! His false teachings and man made traditions and contradictory teachings, have made me a stronger Catholic Christian!
James White is ignorant of Catholic teaching and Canon Law, for Catholic Canon Law expert, Dr Robert Fastiggi, confirms that Pope Francis has never taught anything contrary to Church! Never has, never will! Those who bear false witness against Pope Francis, have never read any of the encyclicals of Pope Francis, and are ignorant of Magisterial teaching! James White is in my prayers as he journeys toward Truth! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink
Facts
@t.d6379 yes, facts! Where are facts from James White that the Catholic Church teaches error? Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink
@@matthewbroderick6287 he doesn't have any facts he is a heretic
James White is also ignorant of what took place with Pope Honorius, who was defended by Athanasius and Maximus the confessor, and Pope John IV prior to the 6th counsel. confirmed that Pope Honorius taught proper Christolgy, but was under duress when was forced to say the opposite, and his fear under duress was condemned for his negligence! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink
Both of these speakers lack knowledge in Church history! Rome simply disputed who wrote Hebrews, as no one knows with infallible certitude!
" we must concede the Church of Rome has given us the Scriptures ", ( Martin Luther, works, vol. 40). Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink