How efficient are our minisplit heat pumps in the winter
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- Опубликовано: 24 янв 2023
- Gauging the efficiency of our heat pumps using a temperature model for our house that I established last winter when we were still heating mostly electrically. This allows me to work out the effective coefficient of performance.
“I’ve got couple of temperature sensors” of course you have Matthias, we wouldn’t expect anything less 😂
😅😅😅
I am slightly disappointed they're not all wood.
Build a cover for those outside units to keep the snow away, should help a lot.
Yup, even just covering the top of the intake side would probably do a ton without hurting the airflow enough to matter.
I think this would be an interesting experiment. If the fan is moving a lot of volume, a smaller cover wouldn't prevent enough snow from getting pulled through the unit. A larger cover would limit the amount of snow, but could limit air flow and not distribute temperature as quickly, making the unit less energy efficient overall.
I want to build a large "winter" housing with screen mesh intakes to see if I can keep the fins clear of snow.
I don't think you would need any kind of screening. Just a large enough roof over the unit and maybe some slat walls. I think screen might get packed full.
@@barthanes1 exactly. It’s a lot easier to shovel around a large cover than trying to clean and de-ice a screen
Finally got it up and running. The only delays we had was because we realized we needed some extra parts (I’ll list that below) ruclips.net/user/postUgkxihMYiJNXcHdbH-7ihymsLz61l7jVyb5O . So we have a loft where our current hvac just couldn’t seem to keep cool during the summer. We have been using a window unit since we bought this house over 6 years ago (all the houses in this neighborhood were built in the 80’s and majority of the houses built like ours use a window unit). I hate window units because they are just so noisy and the one we had really only cools one side of the loft. I had contemplated upgrading our current HVAC, but with all the rising prices these days, it would take years before saving up enough to do that. With the advice of my father-in-law (used to run an HVAC business), he recommended we get an inverter instead. We thought we bought everything we needed, but there were just a few other parts we didn’t anticipate needing (which is what caused most of our delay). My friend and father-in-law did all the work to get it installed and running and now we have nice cool air circulating nicely throughout the entire loft. It is very quiet and even the outside unit is much quieter than our main HVAC unit. Saved ourselves thousands getting this.
In Finland covers or canopys for air pumps outside units are rather typical, those would prevent snow issues. Would assume that depending on model they would somehow impact to air flow also, but guessing they would have minor impact. They also hide the ugly white plastic, which seems to be only option by many producers. Considering to make one with homemade bandsaw?
All AC guys I've talked have said to never use those covers as if they hinder even bit the airflow, efficiency apparently drops quite much. Don't know if that's true, but guy who installed mine was at school same time and I believe him. Outdoor units are indeed though quite ugly.
Outoa kun meinaa, että imee lunta kitusiin. Ei itsellä ainakaan ole moista ongelmaa ollut koskaan.
I was thinking you could build one like a custom range hood with a style like shaker or tudor or something, even copper or steel if it looks good with everything else. If it's big enough it shouldn't affect the fan much I would assume, but how big before it looks ugly.
@@jothain That is not true that you should avoid using covers!
But what one should consider is the area of the intake fins, and that the available area around the unit should be greater than that. The instructions recommends a minimum distance from wall and surrounding obstructions, so your AC guys should pay attention to those instruction.
Almost all outdoor units suck air from behind and blows out the front, if you block the top and one side of the unit, the remaining area on the bottom and the other side should be as large as the whole fin section.
@@everythingexplained that's not true either. Check out Mythbusters. I think it was there proven that those areas are actually really small that need to be in use. Reasoning on ac guys seem to be that airflow needs to be very laminar and even small obstruction would break that.
@@jothain As an HVAC guy myself I agree generally any type of cover will hinder airflow decreasing efficiency way more than it will help with defrosts. If you are going to do something of the sort you never want to cover the sides and you want to leave ample room above the unit for air flow. I believe minimum distance above for a awning type cover is somewhere in the 2-3 feet range.
Impressive data collection. Relating the COP across the temperature range to the frequency of defrost cycles is helpful insight!
We have 7 mini splits with two condensers at our house. Installed them 3 years ago. They work fantastic, even when it gets very cold outside. A lot cheaper than our old baseboard heaters, plus we get air conditioning in the summer.
I guess it depends on where one lives: Here in the very hot desert with relatively mild winters, I have a 6 zone Mitsubishi system but it is ducted with one exception of a ceiling cassette in a utility room/home gym. I could not imagine the ugly boxes on the walls.
What's your coldest outside temperature in a typical year?
@@jimmybrad156 Where I live, 30.0 F, is the average winter low.
@@kennixox262That’s why we have choice. What one finds ugly, another might find beautiful.
@@jimmybrad156 coldest averages around -20 celsius, but usually it's in the -teens.
Nice job with the data collection and explanation of findings. I installed 3 mini splits in my house in FL and turned off the old central air. Our electric bill went down from $400 month to $150. To say I am happy would be an understatement. I know a lot of HVAC guys don't like mini splits because they are hard to work on. Right now that is not my problem. If worst came to worst I would just install a new one because the electric is already there and the hole thru the wall.
Great discussion. We installed a hybrid water heater with similar function to the minisplit from a gas water heater. You’ve inspired me to start collecting a bit more data with external sensors. Of course, to proof is usually in the utility bill.
Interesting. I've always wondered what is the efficiency of those things,... I've seen overall numbers anywhere from 2 to 5 times more efficient. Thanks for all you testing Matthias, this is very informative.
Great presentation brother, I live here in New Brunswick also, just installed 4 , seeing how I can get the best efficiency, you were very thorough, going to check out more of your vids TY
Man you are amazing. I'm off the grid in a tinyhouse, so every Wh counts and I've been dying to know about all these things! Thanks for all the work!
On a fun note: it's crazy seeing your numbers of 80-100kWh per day, compared to my 5kWh per day D: :D
Leave enough space around the outside unit when making the shield. If the air flow is bad the efficiency drops
Or hear about “cheap electricity” when we in Sweden had around 3 - 6 SEK (0.3 - 0.6 USD) per kWh in December.
Contrasts.. 😁
@@VarionJimmy wow. Here in Toronto I pay $0.10-0.14… 7k is like $1
100kWh here in the UK right now would be around £34 at the domestic rate. That's probably $40 or so US. 😱
What do you do to consume 5 kWh per day in a tiny house? You need some more efficient appliances man. I run a regular house with 2 freezers, 1 fridge, washer (no dryer), stove, water pump, water heater, computers, lights, 60 inch tv, ... on not much more, about 6,5 kWh per day. All A class european efficiency score appliances. Freezers consume 90 kWh per year.
I installed a DIY 18K unit over the summer (primarily for AC). I've been quite impressed at the offset it's produced to the oil boiler, especially in the shoulder season. Rough math so far has me saving half my annual fuel oil usage, with a modest increase in electrical usage. Fuel oil is around 5$/gal, and I usually use 6-700gal/winter. It's paying for itself quickly at this rate. Would love to have the granularity of the data you collected though!
I would look at insulation first
@@rockymountainman7 they already installed the unit?
Yeah, your numbers are spot on. In my case, heating cost is about a 1/3rd compared to using my oil fired boiler but that's because my boiler setup is super inefficient. Just going to a cold fired boiler would be a huge cost savings in my case.
@@chrisE815 A lot of people who read this have not yet installed anything. My advice to people who think of making a move is to look at the insulation of their building first. Insulation you buy once and you benefit for every year after that. Insulating can cut down your energy use so much that it doesn't make sense anymore to make an expensive switch to something else.
I love this video, I just put a minisplit in my workshop and have been thinking about doing similar tests, but it seemed like too much work. Thanks for doing the work for me :) !
Thanks for the thorough and detailed research. I was considering a similar split unit here in the UK - more for the air con. But the real world data about the heating aspect of it is appreciated. I was skeptical they could perform as good as they state.
I've been watching all of your videos for a while now and only today found out that you are in NB. Hello from Fredericton. Moved here a few months ago and absolutely love it so far!
And here I just complain when my utilies go up 🤣 I love it, nice job Matthias. Looks like it was a great investment 💕👍
Very interesting effort on your part to measure the COP. You showed just how difficult it is.
Pretty interesting stuff, Matthias! Great testing! 😊
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
Thanks for the insight Matthias.
Very scientific, very impressive. Thanks for the great video!
Fantastic video! Thanks for sharing your data
Thank you sir. That's why we went with mini split throughout the whole house and electric tankless water. But I live in Texas.
Very useful view, thank you.
Great work. Thanks for sharing.
My 8,000 / BTU seer 21 Pioneer split heats my 23 foot travel trailer at 8 degrees no problem. It draws a constant 400 watts to do so. Above freezing, in the 30’s it draws around 240 watts and cycles on and off. My trailer is super insulated with R15 in the walls, R23 in the ceiling. There is nothing like the luxury of good insulation and one of the more efficient mini-splits. Of course a high Seer rating and the time of purchase it a bit difficult due to the initial cost being nearly twice as much. Because my power requirements are so low in both Summer and Winter, I can run all this with solar. Note that when initially started and the Pioneer is running at maximum effort, it can draw as much as 980 watts for a short time. Thanks for the video.
I have a Mr Cool which i believe is a similar unit and another cree. They both do a great job. Your observations match mine exactly. Doesn't do the best in cool humid air, builds up with ice. Once the air drys it does alot better. I keep a wifi temp sensor near the output and have been monitoring as well. Outside humidity can make a huge difference in how quickly the coil reaches max temperature.
Mini splits are amazing, we're using one since this winter. Some are better at heating than others though, COP 4 or 5 is doable for really optimized ones. Around zero C we're using the same amount of electricity of 3 dishwasher cycles per 24 hours.
I really dig these videos man. Thanks.
Yeah they are great, I have mini split of that particular manufacturer Midea, I think they are more efficient because they are using inverter motors for the compressor. I'm very pleased with the mini split unit so far, they are up to the job.
Just the fact that this is on your channel I know that this will not be just another "well, it feels more efficient" video
We installed a minisplit heatpump last year and used it that winter. This year in New Hampshire electricity is extremely expensive so we are only using our cordwood stove. We have an LG red system with two compressors and six indoor units. I didn't notice much in the way of defrost cycles last winter but I was not monitoring it as closely as you are.
Your channel is super underrated!
I installed a mini spit in our house in December of 2021, I've not seen mine ice up,even after our paltry midwest snow yesterday. I really appreciate seeing the visual evidence that I suspected about its energy efficiency, I feel like between the air conditioning and heating,I've saved a ton over my natural gas,and old air conditioner.
Excellent review thanks
Very good informative video. Recently I switch from excel to python+seaborn+jupyter, and drawing nice chart from data you have is much much better :)
Very informative, thanks
It would be interesting to see some data from a tankless water heater in comparison with the storage tank variety. Food for thought sir 🤔
If you have extra temperature sensors I’d recommend adding one each to a liquid and vapor tube on the coil. It should help you monitor how efficient the OD coil is performing. As long as that temperature is close to outdoor ambient then your od coil is performing well.
Yeah i'd second that suggestion. plotting the actual inlet/outlet temp of the exchanger would give you direct info on it's efficiency.
Since this is an inverter unit, measuring the temps on the refrigerant is not that informative. The unit will have pressure and temp sensors giving feedback to the inverter that control the compressor and changes the flow in the system. The one thing I could think of is for detecting unneccesary icing of the evaporator, ie. liquid temp and gas temp are close and way below outdoor temp, but that should the unit detect.
To see if the unit is performing well you should measure the power that the unit consume compared to outdoor temp and indoor temp.
very interesting as always.
If snow ingestion is an issue , I would build a small shelter over the outside unit that still allowed sufficent air flow.
Very informative. As you alluded to, in pursuit of efficiency and economic pay-back, one must always consider the complexity of the systems and therefore their reliability. One significant repair could consume all of the fuel savings and more.
Your attention to detail and knowing how to measure are impressive. Have you considered placing a roof over the mini split outside unit to keep the snow off?
They’re made for outside. No need to cover…
@@paulettelambert7965 But it would mean less defrosting cycles. That was the whole point in recommending a shelter for it. Plus it would be less likely to rust so soon. Have you seen how those things have rusted before? You see them frequently all rusted up. Hopefully newer models have learned.
When you live in a coastal climate it is very important to cover the AC unit, otherwise the casing will be damaged in a few years. Covering it will save you many years of use and money! I live in a coastal region and had a AC go bad in 5 years.
These things are super common in Sweden and has been for 20+ years. I use one to keep +8C in my workshop. Works great! Also common is geothermal. My borehole for the house is 250m deep.
What goes in the hole?
@@Manofcube I believe it's usually antifreeze.
@@Manofcube U shaped pipes with ethanol. It pumps cold liquid, and brings back heated liquid, so it takes temp from the ground below the house.
@@mrjozza5924 Unfortunately we don't have those wells here in lower europe
@@dimmacommunication It's a borehole, we have those (it costs money to bore ofc). Now here on private Land we are only allowed 100m i think. But we do have warmer temperatures overall, so it's fine.
Great video.
Great video! Yes, I also would add a roof to the outside unit. Join the house wall to the top of the unit to stop the snow from being sucked in. Maybe a few inches on the side. The remaining 75% air flow on each side should be enough.
some great information here thank you for putting this video together! I did want to give you a heads-up that when the units go into defrost, they aren't heated up with an electric element, it's the refrigerant inside the coils that are pumped in reverse. that is why you felt cold air when you turned it to air conditioning mode to dethaw it.
And in defrost, the indoor unit fan is off to stop a cold draught in the room.
Explains a lot of things about my own mini-split in winter. I'll have to check if it ices up when we get snow ..
What an interesting video, I'm so glad I watched it. I'd be interested in knowing how much energy is used in the defrosting process over the course of a season, and whether or not it would be worthwhile to have a couple of air filter/screens that could be manually hot-swapped when they got clogged.
+1 on some sort of cover over the outside unit. My unit is not up against a plain wall... My workshop is on piers with air flow under it (floor joists have insulation between them) So air into the unit is coming from a sheltered area. The little corrugated plastic roof extending out over the unit from the shop wall therefore does not restrict air flow. That roof helps also to keep debris from being sucked into the coils.
Build a little lean to coming off the house to cover the outside unit. It'll help with snow ingest in winter and with direct sunlight in summer. Increased efficiency year-round.
It's so satisfying to go "Hmm I wonder how this thing perfor- Ah neat Matthias (or Project Farm) tested it!"
i received a presentation on samsung VRF systems at work recently, where they showed that they have air pressure differential sensing to determine if the unit is iced up, so that they can potentially run the defrost cycle less frequently. not sure if others do this too, but thought that was cool
If you want to prevent frost on the back of your unit, try putting some propylene glycol into a spray bottle and spraying a thin layer onto the freezing surface.
Great content
Thanks for this video.
After 7.42 I realised you have reached level 100 Electrical Engineer. I was trying to guess if you were mech or elec, but the instrument comment is 100% elec haha! im mechanical, and loved the content. PS most elec's always take it to the next nerd level and that brings me great joy!
I found this video by looking into misting the condenser (in cooling mode obviously) to increase the efficiency, my search is inconclusive and you have all the gadgets to run a test in summer.
it will help, but I don't think its worthwhile. Increased complexity, increased corrosion, reduced lifetime.
@@matthiasrandomstuff2221 After everything I've looked into, I agree. My water is quite hard and the calcium build up will just kill the efficiency long before corrosion kicks in. However, I ended up setting up a manual misting system to assist on hot days >40 deg C and it made a noticeable difference. I would be super interested to see what results you could get even if you just mist with a garden hose for 30 minutes.
Your experiements/work with cyclone seperators should come in handy for building a duct for the outside units that settles any snow out before feeding dryer air to the unit.
Thanks Matthias!
You're amazing!
This channel should be called “How much you can accomplish when you don’t watch TV”
Nice video and a nice brick house too. Better than the wooden shacks south of the border.
Matt,
This was very interesting. I understand they are more efficient than resistive heating but its hard wrapping my mind around it when they are driving a compressor. Just a suggestion for the summer months eh! I've seen the evaporator units make a mess of the walls when the condensation drain clogs up. Be sure to keep the drains clear!
Best Wishes,
Tom K.
When trying to understand how these work it helps to think of them as oversize, reversible fridges with fans.
Great share , thankyou
Very interesting !
We've had warm winters since you moved down here. Thanks! LOL
2018-2019 was not warm!
This is great info, thank you! Also, I loved you in Season 3 of Stranger Things.
Hahahahaha you are a real electrical technician bare board wires everywhere.)) Thanks for sharing
10:48 - would absolute humidity (g/m3 H2O) be more relevant ? It is after all the amount of water that freezes to the coils.
+5 C / 80 %RH = 5.5 g/m3 H2O vs. -5 C / 80 %RH = 2.7 g/m3 H2O.
One of our unit have an auto de icing so it stops heating for a couple of minutes when it detects icing. It is computer controlled and even have prepare mode before heating in the morning. Our other unit is just cheaper one and heats non stop until it ice up. We don't usually use the dumb one because it is the bedroom. The smart one is in the living room even have an app so you can track your 2 years of power usage. Current year is overlaid over last year.
I love my mini split.
Super helpful
ayyy i see that surge protector on your disconnect, my man. Good on you protecting your investment
We have had a mild winter this year (im in Freddy too). Im down 800kwh from same time 2022 and 1200kwh from 2021. This week will be a good test of the minisplit! Brr.
Is there an overhang of the house to protect the mini-split coils from falling/drifting snow? If not, do you think adding a shroud to pull the air flow from under the mini-split (block the top and sides some) would have reduced the 12 defrost cycles to some lesser number?
your videos are awesome. ultra nerd stuff.
Thanks
my apartment has a similar unit, we don't use it in the winter due to the building's baseboard radiative boiler heaters, and the lack of consistent airflow.
But dang is it efficient.
Great analysis. Can you say something about the insulation in your home? R-values in roof and walls....square feet of living space? Thanks
Build some form of an enclosure/roof for the outside unit. That's a fairly common thing here in Finland.
I think my minisplit system has resistance coils in the outdoor unit to defrost itself. I didn't realize that some units didn't have this. Love your data gathering and analysis!
This is the key with reverse cycle systems, it is one valve and little electrical change between heating and cooling but does it in one vs independent units.
If you could build a small roofed area over your outside unit, it would not only keep the snow off, but the cooling effect from the shade might help during the summer, albeit, marginally.
Thank you for such a detail analysis. I'm doing all the painstaking measurements so that we don't have to do. Could you please link the model of the mini split?
Which sensors do you use for inside temperatures (the graphs @10:22)? They seem to have a very good resolution ...
Seems like a shed around the compressor would reduce the defrost cycle and increase efficiency in the winter. Although I don't know how that would effect cooling efficiency in the summer.
Im running mini split in the garage/workshop. Runs year round to keep temp up and reduce moisture in the space. Prior install ran dehumidifier that was a power hog in comparison.
If you could tie into the control board, ie. like BACnet integration, you'd be able to get inlet/outlet temps, coil temps, etc.
This Dude is a Graft Warrior! 🤟
I am experiencing the exact same thing with my 10 year old mitsubishi. Around 0 it needs to defrost much more often, every 1-2 hours. Also it has a heating element in the bottom of the outside unit to prevent water to freeze in the bottom of the unit when defrosting.
I suggest you to remove the transport wiring mesh from backside of the heatpump.. It's just there to not destroy fins on transport. It should have been removed by installing company. This was big topic here in Finland this fall when people started to post pictures of their setups and huge portion had that mesh still installed.
The wire screen on the back side is intended to remain over the coil for the life of the unit. It is not just for shipping. Leaving it in place, as intended, has no effect on the system performance.
@@wesleyhughes3946 It is writen in some manufacturers manual to remove it. It's very common to see it in place. I checked mine and it was removed by installer. Here in Finland many have had problems of ice accumulation on that screen. When its defrosting it only melts those coils and I starts to build up and block air movement.
@@darkstari I can see some instances where this might be a problem in a humid and cold climate like yours, but I question how ice builds on the screen? It shouldn't be touching the coil, so it should remain at ambient temperature and not build any frost. I suppose a thick layer of frost could build up thick enough to eventually touch the screen and cause issues, but a properly defrosting unit shouldn't ever have that much frost load.
@@wesleyhughes3946 Well, I personally haven't had this problem because I don't have the screen attached on my heatpump. I've only seen lots of photos that backside of these heatpumps get so iced up that the coil cant melt that ice anymore because it is attached to that wiremesh. If there is no mesh excessive ice would just fall down when pump is de-icing itself. I can't link these pictures here to proof but we all do as we like :) Might get away with the mesh or might not.
Nice work! Could you place a roof above the outdoor unit to prevent snow being sucked in?
That would help during snowfall, but not condensation when its just generally humid (which is more often the case than snow falling)
Top man!
Nice video. Someone told me if you keep your mini splits outside in an enclosed environment like a box, it saves a lot of energy since it will not be exposed to elements. This could make the number of times it needs to defrost less saving energy. I don't have one myself so it is just something that i heard and thought i will let you know.
Cover from elements and shade from sun is good, but restricting the airflow is bad. Roof with no walls would be ideal but most people want to hide them vs draw more attention to them.
A simple test if a cover that keep snow out, can/will help, is to place a table over the unit outside. Offcourse during summer, and rain can reach the condenser, the cooling effect will be much better.
I got 3 daikin aurora units installed under the federal/provincial program; with the rebates the 3rd one was almost free.
Your unit will have a thermistor on that outdoor coil. The board will look for a reading for defrost to activate.
It’s normally a temperature after a time period.
I install these for a living .I would recommend putting a little roof over the unit keep snow and ice off.
We installed one of these as part of an IT server room hvac and the contractor specifically mentioned us requiring a sub-zero add-on to prevent the unit icing up (winter operation in southern Ontario). Perhaps you might want to speak to your hvac person to get information on that.
That is called a resistive heater :D Just makes the COP even worse.
@@rkan2 I never realized that’s all that it was. Yeah I guess that would definitely skew the numbers in the wrong direction. Lol
If you get enough ice build up that you need to assist the unit in defrosting, you should ensure all ice is gone otherwise it will start building again in the same areas. In a worst case scenario the ice can shift the coil and damage it. Warm water can be used to melt the last bits of ice.
very cool video... no pun intended.
It would nice to see the data show actual ambient temp, there is lots of video's show how this works in what appears to be moderate temperatures. I live in a area where it can be -20 to -30Cfor a good portion of the winter. Electricity costs are about $0.31 per Kw/hr, natural gas is about $5-7 / MMBTU. So based on what he is indicating there is no cost advantage.
Thanks! Very useful information. I wonder if there would be a similar performance here in eastern Ontario?
I would expect. Climate is fairly similar