@@AcousticFields recording (mostly DI’s and in the box, not Microphones) and mixing at hobbyist level. If I can get low end control down to 70 hz, I’d be happy
So informative every time! I think I should do an outdoor listening test with my speakers so there shouldn't be any room modes or something like that. That must be the ultimate flat bass response experience 😀 then I have a reference point how it should sound in my room 😂
I get where he's coming from... I do. I'm a recording engineer and it's easy to become a little strict or elitist about sound... I do it all the time... However, it's unrealistic for most people to "find another room"... The problem is that he's not taking into account the age old philosophy of "don't let perfect be the enemy of the good". Some people may not be able to upgrade rooms for another 5-10-25 years. Some have families who occupy the rooms they might otherwise use... Life is a compromise after all. Anyway, he's sort of abandoning them by not providing some practical solutions that will absolutely improve their room sound and their listening experience. It is absolutely possible to get decent acoustics in a 10 foot room. Will it be mastering studio quality... Hell no, but they can get it a point of being perfectly acceptable for nearfield monitoring for enjoyment or mixing. Of course it won't be perfect for mixing, but that's why as a mixing engineer you listen to your mixes in a number of imperfect environments to gauge a balance.
It is always a balancing act between usage goals and available space. When the acoustic goals are greater than the available space to treat to accomplish those goals, you must find another room.
You made sense, at least to me.. Great music was not produced in the perfect numbered rooms. Also great mixes were not always mixed in perfect places. I do respect requirements of physics but I respect a 'work-around' solutions more than that. Simply because, I see them happening around me always. P.S. one wise person once said your room adds character to your mixes and you never know that's your identity and signature ✨
I was reading an article on how near field monitors the listener didn't really need to worry about room treatment and room acoustics because you are so close to the speakers, usually within a few feet because they are spaced within a short distance and they typically have small bass drivers. Dennis, can you comment on anything one has to consider when listening to smaller near field monitors at a short distance from the speakers?
O, Near field monitoring is all about hearing everything that is in the recording with minimal impact by the room. It is mainly used by engineers to monitor the spectral balance of the instruments and voices within the mix. If you are using small low-frequency drivers and are sitting with your rig in room center away from room boundary surfaces, and playing at low-pressure levels, then you are doing everything you can to minimize room distortion. However, this is not the reality of most near field rig setups we have seen. Most are set up against a wall and have sidewalls that are close to speakers. Sidewall/rear wall/ and ceiling reflections then come into play. I have a near field set up at my work desk. I have 3" LF drivers and sit away from all boundary surfaces. The biggest issue I experience is the reflection off of my computer keyboard. I place a piece of foam across my keyboard and middle range definition improves drastically. Even with the near field, there is no free ride.
@@AcousticFields Thanks. How far away are you from boundary surfaces with those speakers and can you use a sub with those without needing room treatment?
O, I sit 12' away from the side, front, and rear walls. A sub is not necessary for near field listening as long as your speakers are full range. Remember that a sub will bring in more room sound.
Hey Dennis great informative videos!! For years and thousands of dollars i have been trying to get good sound. The manufacture (AR) of my speakers says put the speakers 2-3 inches from the wall. When you do that a sound stage simply does not exist. I have been an audiophile for 30+ years wondering why i can't get good sound. I should have taken 3-4 thousand i put in equipment and put it in room treatment. Not another dollar is upgrading equipment!! My room is 22.8 long and 13.2 ft wide with an drop ceiling (almost called it an acoustic ceiling) that's not even quite 8 ft tall. I know that's narrow but doable? I hope so. Been watching your series for 6 months. I had no idea how ignorant i was and still am but learning! I'll be sending the layout and pictures during the holidays when i'm off. Thanks Dennis!
J, With equipment especially Hi-Fi gear, you pay a lot for small improvements when the gear is then placed in a room where you may or may not be able to hear those improvements you paid in some cases thousands for. I have never understood that since I know the impact the room makes on the sound quality. The room is so powerful that it may let you hear some things but not others. A force that powerful must be taken seriously. It simply must be. This can not and must not be disputed.
Dennis, Have you heard of people talking about Golden Ratio with regards to determining the length and width for a room? If so, can you discuss that? What's your experiences, etc. Thanks
O, Ratios of room dimensions were designed to minimize coincidental modes in small room acoustics. Coincidental modes are modes that are not separated by at least 5 Hz. They do a fair job of that task. However, people mistake the data as gospel without considering that that these ratios are only a starting point. They do not account for the space requirements of treatment, the usage of the room, and a host of other variables.
@@AcousticFields Ok. Yeah, I read some articles about the Golden Ratio and I was just curious as to what your experience, thoughts on the subject were. Thanks.
O, Be careful with terms such as "golden ratio" , the "best of" or the "greatest". Look at the physics behind the terms and then judge for yourself what is good for your particular usage and acoustical requirements.
@@AcousticFields Yes, I was playing around with a room dimension calculator based on the "Golden Rule" ratios and it spits out 3 different dimensions and you basically punch in the Ceiling height and it does the rest. But the calculator will accept all ceiling heights and I know from your videos and "common sense", 8" ceilings and lower isn't a good height to have. Here's a link to the website that has this calculator. :-) Notice at the top of the page, there is a black sliding line to input the ceiling height and then it calculates 3 different room dimensions. You can put as low as 2 Ft. ceiling height, which we all know isn't going to exist In anyone's home or studio. www.psaudio.com/room-calculator/
O, Stay with that calculator. Start with ceiling height of 8'. Then go to 9', 10', and 11'. Notice the axial modal structure below 100 Hz. Keep the width and length the same. Use 15' w x 17' l. Tell us what trends you notice below 100 Hz.
K, Small rooms produce large issues, especially with lower frequencies. Large LF issues take 6 - 16" of space to treat. Without space to treat the issues, you can not treat and simply must live with the unwanted low-frequency pressures. Larger distances can minimize the frequency issues and reduce the treatment amounts. Sometimes an increase of just 1' in distance can reduce treatment requirements by 25%.
@@AcousticFields 2 channel listening room. I'm building a new space, ceiling is limited to 8' 4", I can have a max length of 20' and max width of 14' (I could got a foot or two more, but then I'll have support columns inside the room). According to the golden ratio-based calculators I see, they tell me 19'4" long and 13'4" wide.
T, There is nothing "golden" about Bonella or Bolt ratios. They are guidelines. They do not allow for the depth requirements that low-frequency treatment requires. LF treatment can require 6" - 16" of wall space to treat. You must then calculate this space requirement into the net room dimensions. After you calculate the distance requirements for treatment, you may end up with something more unfavorable, especially for middle and higher frequencies. If these are what you have to work with then we will treat what we can within this footprint.
Dennis, thank you for the cogent content!
My pleasure!
Didn't realize that about equipment. A friend enclosed his garage for a living room / entertainment area. Worked great.
T, Every wall surface area contributes 18% to what you finally hear.
my room is 14' long, 11' wide, 8' tall. I hope it is treatable. If not, I'll have a bunch of acoustic panels for another room some day
What is the room usage?
@@AcousticFields recording (mostly DI’s and in the box, not Microphones) and mixing at hobbyist level. If I can get low end control down to 70 hz, I’d be happy
@@AcousticFields I have similar dimensions in my room. I produce and mix hip hop. Can you share any insights?
So informative every time! I think I should do an outdoor listening test with my speakers so there shouldn't be any room modes or something like that. That must be the ultimate flat bass response experience 😀 then I have a reference point how it should sound in my room 😂
M, That would be a good start for low-frequency issues.
I get where he's coming from... I do. I'm a recording engineer and it's easy to become a little strict or elitist about sound... I do it all the time... However, it's unrealistic for most people to "find another room"... The problem is that he's not taking into account the age old philosophy of "don't let perfect be the enemy of the good". Some people may not be able to upgrade rooms for another 5-10-25 years. Some have families who occupy the rooms they might otherwise use... Life is a compromise after all. Anyway, he's sort of abandoning them by not providing some practical solutions that will absolutely improve their room sound and their listening experience. It is absolutely possible to get decent acoustics in a 10 foot room. Will it be mastering studio quality... Hell no, but they can get it a point of being perfectly acceptable for nearfield monitoring for enjoyment or mixing. Of course it won't be perfect for mixing, but that's why as a mixing engineer you listen to your mixes in a number of imperfect environments to gauge a balance.
It is always a balancing act between usage goals and available space. When the acoustic goals are greater than the available space to treat to accomplish those goals, you must find another room.
You made sense, at least to me.. Great music was not produced in the perfect numbered rooms. Also great mixes were not always mixed in perfect places. I do respect requirements of physics but I respect a 'work-around' solutions more than that. Simply because, I see them happening around me always. P.S. one wise person once said your room adds character to your mixes and you never know that's your identity and signature ✨
I was reading an article on how near field monitors the listener didn't really need to worry about room treatment and room acoustics because you are so close to the speakers, usually within a few feet because they are spaced within a short distance and they typically have small bass drivers.
Dennis, can you comment on anything one has to consider when listening to smaller near field monitors at a short distance from the speakers?
O, Near field monitoring is all about hearing everything that is in the recording with minimal impact by the room. It is mainly used by engineers to monitor the spectral balance of the instruments and voices within the mix. If you are using small low-frequency drivers and are sitting with your rig in room center away from room boundary surfaces, and playing at low-pressure levels, then you are doing everything you can to minimize room distortion. However, this is not the reality of most near field rig setups we have seen. Most are set up against a wall and have sidewalls that are close to speakers. Sidewall/rear wall/ and ceiling reflections then come into play. I have a near field set up at my work desk. I have 3" LF drivers and sit away from all boundary surfaces. The biggest issue I experience is the reflection off of my computer keyboard. I place a piece of foam across my keyboard and middle range definition improves drastically. Even with the near field, there is no free ride.
@@AcousticFields Thanks. How far away are you from boundary surfaces with those speakers and can you use a sub with those without needing room treatment?
O, I sit 12' away from the side, front, and rear walls. A sub is not necessary for near field listening as long as your speakers are full range. Remember that a sub will bring in more room sound.
@@AcousticFields Thanks. You must be sitting within a couple of feet from your speakers. :-)
O, I sit 3' from my monitors when I am working on my computer. When I sit back in my chair, I am at 4'
Hey Dennis great informative videos!! For years and thousands of dollars i have been trying to get good sound. The manufacture (AR) of my speakers says put the speakers 2-3 inches from the wall. When you do that a sound stage simply does not exist. I have been an audiophile for 30+ years wondering why i can't get good sound. I should have taken 3-4 thousand i put in equipment and put it in room treatment. Not another dollar is upgrading equipment!! My room is 22.8 long and 13.2 ft wide with an drop ceiling (almost called it an acoustic ceiling) that's not even quite 8 ft tall. I know that's narrow but doable? I hope so. Been watching your series for 6 months. I had no idea how ignorant i was and still am but learning! I'll be sending the layout and pictures during the holidays when i'm off. Thanks Dennis!
J, With equipment especially Hi-Fi gear, you pay a lot for small improvements when the gear is then placed in a room where you may or may not be able to hear those improvements you paid in some cases thousands for. I have never understood that since I know the impact the room makes on the sound quality. The room is so powerful that it may let you hear some things but not others. A force that powerful must be taken seriously. It simply must be. This can not and must not be disputed.
Dennis,
Have you heard of people talking about Golden Ratio with regards to determining the length and width for a room? If so, can you discuss that? What's your experiences, etc.
Thanks
O, Ratios of room dimensions were designed to minimize coincidental modes in small room acoustics. Coincidental modes are modes that are not separated by at least 5 Hz. They do a fair job of that task. However, people mistake the data as gospel without considering that that these ratios are only a starting point. They do not account for the space requirements of treatment, the usage of the room, and a host of other variables.
@@AcousticFields Ok. Yeah, I read some articles about the Golden Ratio and I was just curious as to what your experience, thoughts on the subject were.
Thanks.
O, Be careful with terms such as "golden ratio" , the "best of" or the "greatest". Look at the physics behind the terms and then judge for yourself what is good for your particular usage and acoustical requirements.
@@AcousticFields Yes, I was playing around with a room dimension calculator based on the "Golden Rule" ratios and it spits out 3 different dimensions and you basically punch in the Ceiling height and it does the rest. But the calculator will accept all ceiling heights and I know from your videos and "common sense", 8" ceilings and lower isn't a good height to have.
Here's a link to the website that has this calculator. :-)
Notice at the top of the page, there is a black sliding line to input the ceiling height and then it calculates 3 different room dimensions. You can put as low as 2 Ft. ceiling height, which we all know isn't going to exist In anyone's home or studio.
www.psaudio.com/room-calculator/
O, Stay with that calculator. Start with ceiling height of 8'. Then go to 9', 10', and 11'. Notice the axial modal structure below 100 Hz. Keep the width and length the same. Use 15' w x 17' l. Tell us what trends you notice below 100 Hz.
sigh... everytime i listen to these vids i wanna move to another apartment..
K, Small rooms produce large issues, especially with lower frequencies. Large LF issues take 6 - 16" of space to treat. Without space to treat the issues, you can not treat and simply must live with the unwanted low-frequency pressures. Larger distances can minimize the frequency issues and reduce the treatment amounts. Sometimes an increase of just 1' in distance can reduce treatment requirements by 25%.
Lol same here
I hear you. I have a relatively large space but weird L shape with tons of windows. You kind of have to build it yourself to get it right.
With a ceiling height of 8’ (8’ 4” to be exact), what widths would go along with those lengths?
T, What is the usage?
@@AcousticFields 2 channel listening room. I'm building a new space, ceiling is limited to 8' 4", I can have a max length of 20' and max width of 14' (I could got a foot or two more, but then I'll have support columns inside the room). According to the golden ratio-based calculators I see, they tell me 19'4" long and 13'4" wide.
T, There is nothing "golden" about Bonella or Bolt ratios. They are guidelines. They do not allow for the depth requirements that low-frequency treatment requires. LF treatment can require 6" - 16" of wall space to treat. You must then calculate this space requirement into the net room dimensions. After you calculate the distance requirements for treatment, you may end up with something more unfavorable, especially for middle and higher frequencies. If these are what you have to work with then we will treat what we can within this footprint.
@@AcousticFields Tim mentioned 2 channel listening room. :-)
So youre telling me that a mortgage is between me and better sound? Ouch...
Some raw truth dished up by Dennis, as usual.