Saurfang, Sylvanas And Redefining The Horde: Old Soldier Analysis & Pre-Patch Fallout | WoW News
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- Опубликовано: 21 окт 2024
- World of Warcraft: Battle For Azeroth dropped some big surprises this week. From the Sylvanas Warbringer revealing at last who burned Teldrassil (and why) to glimpses of the the collectors edition novellas Elegy and A Good War, to the cherry on top... a secret new Saurfang cinematic Old Soldier! There was love, tears and a huge community backlash to deal with so join us on as we talk Zappy Boy (Zekhan) and the meme that came to life, the future of the horde, the destruction of the Nightelves, garrosh 2.0, popcorn toys, siege of Lordaeron, battle for Undercity, Genn Greymane, Warmode and more in The Weekly Reset: Taliesin and Evitel's Wondrous Wisdomshow.
Knowledge is Power.
Thank you to WoWHead for their brilliant analysis and summary of Elegy and A Good War. Find the article here:
www.wowhead.com...
Old Soldier Article:
www.wowhead.com...
Darkmoon Faire & New Popcorn Toy:
www.wowhead.com...
Twitter: / taliesinevitel
Patreon: / taliesinandevitel
Spreadshirt: shop.spreadshi...
Plot twist.
The draenei already crashed the Vindicar.
Velen should have saw that tree coming
Blobby ohhh... XD
They just tried to recreate some Initial D drift videos. Nothing wrong with that
Your skill in piloting has increased to 3.
World of Warcraft Netflix Series with Old Soldier Animation? Yes please.
God, don't even mention stuff like this. I will straight up cry that I can't have it.
Yeah that would be awesome. But since it takes so much time and money to make these kind of cinimatics, i wouldn't expect it sometime soon. The warcraft movie had a 160 million $ budget and had a lot of CG but not even close to the quality of the warcraft cinimatics.
But I dream of a full blizzard CG movie one day ❤️
Skoll Shorties YES!!!
my mate told me that even DISNEYS most productive day produced 6 sec of viewable footage, so i think time is a huge concern
Man i would kill for this!!!!
ZappyBoi for Warchief! :D
Thanks Taliesin & Evitel! Another awesome video! ♥
They definitely needed more in-game. Not much more, but more.
Without context, the Malf/Sylv/Saurang/Tryrande scene was confusing on multiple levels. In Warbringers, Saurfang watches the horror quietly then walks away with no one obviously opposing the burning, completely counter to the novellas and Old Soldier. I was standing right there! I should have seen!
evanbld. Here's the thing tho. People are so lazy to read the quest texts. A new questchain pops and MANY people just rush to the end. Maybe that's why they don't understand, and then complain.
I was thinking the same thing. Sylvanas should have killed Malfurion. She ordered his death, she should have been the one to carry it out. At least release the short stories before or at the same time as the War of Thorns release.
The problem here is that for those who *do* read the quest text, there's nothing there for them. People are reading what's given to them, reaching the end and being hopelessly confused and/or frustrated with the incomplete picture they're given.
The content needs to be in-game somehow in some form. It wouldn't have taken much more to show Saurfang's dismay or Tyrande's dedication to her people. A couple paragraphs of unvoiced dialogue would have at least filled in the blanks and made the entire business passable.
I agree. An audio book quest addon would work wonders here. While grinding 18 bear asses for Sylvanas, you could listen to the quest flavor text.
Yes thank you, i would go with "much more" here cause in game you literally and factually have no f-in idea what justified anything. And i dont mean the burning of a bunch of civilians, you cant even tell as much as to what was the reason for going to war. All you get are 3-4 sentence long trash talks that literally ooze with the attitude that suggests everything thats happening should be common sense and understandable.
While in reality none of it is. There is no background, no nothing for it. In game you literally go to war and burn a bunch of children over nothing.
Your channel should be mandatory watching for all WoW players.
Absolutely the same.
Yeah the part about warbringer's sylvanas was so true and so necessary and I feel like if every wow player had just seen a clip of Taliesin talking about it then there wouldn't have been nearly as much pointless outrage.
100% agree.. this should be mandatory!
Indeed
Lady Wanderer It was pointless outrage. You and every other “fan” that dissed the writers on behalf of Sylvanas’s reasoning have been called out. This was arguably within character. She has always been a bit of mystery with scary and sociopathic under tones.
I’m sorry if you romanticized her but even a quick glimpse at her history shows she’s not above the extreme.
Also what you consider evil is purely subjective. It was dishonorable, and improvised for sure. As it was meant to be, and clearly an important moment in this expac. If you can’t handle this war....Dip out.
Be a Zappy Boi.
Guys. I haven’t missed an episode since discovering you maybe 6 months ago. The humor is spot on, the info is solid, it’s just great. This episode you really, really solidified yourselves as the best there is. The breakdown and explanation around the Old Soldier cinematic was as good as watching it for the first time. Fantastic work - I can’t wait for the next video!
I couldn't agree more. Its a nice break from the outrage that I've seen from some people regarding Sylvanas, so it's nice to see some reasoned arguments for the Horde storyline. The Breakdown of Old Soldier is great too; especially how Zappy Boi could be seen to represents the player base (i may be reading to much into that though). Since legion, I honestly think that Blizzard's storytelling has taken a step up (although by no means perfect); so I'm hoping that we will see more of a redemption of Sylvanas - Possibly along the lines of her representation of the shadow against/ or aligned with Alduins representation of the light, and thus a lot like the void elves involvement with the alliance.
the weirdest thing that blizzard's writers has done is that
they somehow made zappyboi more popular and likable than sylvanas.
right? its like Trump and Hillary all over again
you're both right, LMAO
I don't find it that weird that young, polite and naive Troll shaman is more popular and likable than a selfish, manipulative banshee bitch.
Well I mean..It's not hard. One represents the hopeful future of what the Horde should truly be, the other is an evil bitch that commits mass genocide seemingly on a whim..
Raven Brown - not on a whim! She was trolled by a life loving Elf.
I honestly love you guys. You bring an optimist view to this community, something really lacking considering that no matter how angrily passionate we get, we will keep playing and loving the game.
Closo Tezuka thank you! I feel the same way - these two are counteracting all the boyish and immature banter the loud parts of the community is spewing out whenever there are new changes. They even do it with great arguments and insight of lore and game mechanics which help make the beforementioned community look even more ridiculous
I cried a little bit when I did the Darnassus saving quest. Felt so frustrated, sad and just absolut dread. I saved 66.... did not feel like I did enough. My first character back in vanilla was a Night Elf Druid, so Darnassus has a special place in my heart.
Oh YES! **rubs hands together** ive been waiting for you guys to upload!!
me too!!!!
OY VEY! *rubs hands together*
Totally!
I am so glad I wasn't the only one doing that! Was not disappointed.
Morally grey was used to describe the world, but the world's story has yet to be seen as such.
I agree with Nobbel's analysis of the events, they could've handled this better but what we got is what we have.
Thank you for remembering Gilneas, that Sylvanas has always been like this, and that they never called her specifically moraly gray. Glad you two are of the same mind as I am. I also started liking Sylvans more since the cinematic. Great analysis of the Old Soldier video, as expected! Good job on your marathonsprint this week! :D
So by extension, Velen burned teldrassil with his inaction.
I asked 1g from a 60 geared out gnome standing in Dolanaar, he was like -.-, but he gave me the gold and i used most of the money to buy leather gear for my druid from the vendor. Noob times, good times
I can't wait for some plot twist that makes the Alliance go through a similar identity crisis. I hope it involves Calia, lightbinding some dead and dying horde and alliance soldiers and that the group just happens to include Saurfang. Omega-Level drama would ensue it'd be great!
Um... I personally would love to see longer more fleshed out quest text / cutscenes to explain more of this stuff in game rather then learn about it online via other means. The story should be told by the medium we interact with it, at least in my opinion it should.
FFXIV does this well by telling its main story through quest text via npc, voice acted lines in game and in game cutscenes that are also voice acted with text lines to follow as well. I dont see why WoW can't do this, but i see why they won't do this, its $$$$, those collectors editions for the lore the extra books and art, the Before the storm book ect.
Blizzard makes money off this stuff via the other venues and I don't see this changing in the future. Cutscenes and voice acting costs far more money then it does to have 1 person write a book and fill in the gaps there, or have a writer toss up a few novelas and put em into a collectors edition for even more sale value.
Sometimes a book allow people to capture more the essence of a situation. Describing thing from the narrator PoV can help understand more some situations that would need a voice over in cinematics. You can talk about thoughts in a book well, for cinematics it has to be more suggestive, like the haunted visions of Saurfang in Old Soldier.
I ain't against free novels that are a part of the new xpac lore, but everything that cost money bugger me a bit.
My problem with the "Its in the book" method is that you are splitting up the lore when it doesn't need to be. Mind you i own the Before the storm book, my hope is that what is conveyed in this book is shown off in game and isn't just left to "Welp it's in the book so we don't gotta explain it in the game" They very well need to explain some of this stuff in the game to give greater context.
This is my one big gripe about it being among the game, the book, the novelas ect... Cinematics are fine, they fit into the game perfectly and should be depicted in the game as well as on the youtube channel the same way the Warbringers Sylvanas one was or the Battle for Azeroth opening cinematic.
It's not that i don't mind stuff being fleshed out in books or Novela's but i just feel the most important narrative stuff needs to be in the game, I shouldn't be looking for lore narrative from a source outside the game, it should be in the game.
I love how Bellular's comment is the first one to appear in the shit show.
Thank you Taliesin, your thoughts mirror my own about this weeks events. It was exhausting arguing with my friends and guildies but hearing you agree made me so happy.
You quoted Henry V. Are you kidding me? My god, you people are brilliant.
Henry V is the BEST.
4 semesters of Shakespeare at uni and I get to sit here and watch him being shoved into a debate about writing in video games. Smh.
We use quotes Shakespeare used in his plays in common conversation even today. It's a good show just how universal his influence has been over time. Why can't his works be applied here as well? He isn't a god to observe his words and never speak them except in his plays.
You don't think the writers at Blizz are cultured or educated enough? It's "just a video game" (that's been around longer than some of the players, and has millions of subs, and routinely watches other games launch and die within a year or two)
It's not grey. It is simplistic black and white on the level of first grade schoolers.
Thank you, the gymnastics he is pulling off as he ignores all the obvious holes and simpleness of the story. They do deliver positive vibes on this channel so i understand.
Most of the time, I keep quiet, let wind blows outta my nose and smile....but can't just view anymore without commenting that Old Soldier breakdown.......... This is what I've subbed for!! This is just well done!
I LOVE THIS LONG EPISODE!!!
Sylvanas remains one of the most interesting characters. Without her the narrative would feel a lot more hollow, she really moves the story forward, even when she wasn't warchief. I can only hope that Blizzard doesn't throw her under the bus, because she is fascinating, specially in contrast with almost everyone due to her complete lack of morals.
Red Moon yeah, she’s definitely a villain. The antagonist is the one who drives the story. Without them the protagonist will have nothing to overcome
I agree, I just hope blizz doesn’t give into the whinners and kill her character off.
From your fingertips to Blizzard's eyes. Or rather, I really hope they keep her bus free.
30 minute video, my boi ;)
you mean "30 minutevideo, my Zappyboi ;)
I love seeing content creators supporting one another.
Gives me hope as someone just starting out in a creative field!
Selwen I don't know if you'll read this but you are a source of joy. My partner is very much a softhearted human being but your accent drives cray cray.
I was watching your content while getting back into WoW after a hiatus and my partner barged into the room to say forceful, "learn to speak freaking English!"
She realised what she said straight away and followed up with, "Oh god, I'm a monster."
It was a great moment we joke about now, so thank you #lovetheaccent
That was a wonderful story to read
Selwen it is 2:29am here and I just woke her up to show her you now know about her shame moment.
Thank you for your content and attitude :D
Back in Vanilla Wow had books ... all over the place, that told us all the hidden lore like "why are there 3 varieties of dwarfs" in Ironforge or other books in other places that told other stories. you could even collect them sometimes.
My issue with the current Sylvanas story line is I feel her character is growing one dimensional and stale, especially knowing what happens during the up coming Lordaeron invasion and the last two lines of the Three Sisters comic. What's more, the obvious paths for her character to take from here are also stale. Is she going to morph into a Lich Queen, Garrosh, or a mixture of the two? Do we later find out she is under the influence of the old gods? Does she find redemption? Do we remove her as warchief? Most of that feels like it's been done.
Nicely said. Couldn't agree more. Whatever they do moving forward (however great) won't justify this pre-adult character "development".
Jason Allen dude where have you been she’s been like this since arthas killed her infact she did some pretty evil shit making a dreadlord killing his own kind which is consider disgusting and look at what happened to that dreadlord in legion. Also not to mention she just killed garithos (he kinda had it coming but she killed the innocent survivors as well). Another thing is sylvanas was aware of the plague and is ordering you in vanilla to begin production of it so she knew what putress was doing in wrath. And this is what I like is sylvanas will do the things no one will dream of doing because in the end it gets results, while you view it as evil she views it as a cost of war and wars are like this trust me no one is innocent.
Nick Duh-huh, and now THAT is the Horde Warchief, and that is going to be a problem for Horde races. Their leader has no honor, and has no problem killing Horde troops and raising them into undeath. Now that the Legion is taken care of, she is walking down the Garrosh story line by starting a war with the Alliance and murdering innocent civilians. Now, the a lot of the orcs could probably see past that due to an ingrained sense of duty to their warchief. But how are the Trolls, Blood Elves, and Tauren going to react to it?
Also, when I reference the possibility of Sylvanas being under the influence of the old gods, I mean going all the way back to jumping off Ice Crown Citadel and having a vision of what she thought was Hell. If memory serves, one of the old gods (Yogg-Saron?) calls itself the god of death. It could shown her the vision of Hell she saw that gave her great fear and then arranged for her to be revived to unknowingly do his bidding. Yes, that sounds fairly contrived, but this is Blizzard we're talking about. They've never shied away from contrived plots before, and I don't see them stopping any time soon.
Jason Allen yes I agree with this entire response and this is why I fight for the alliance.
I don't disagree that military history is filled to the brim with blunders. What does bug me about Sylvanas' action is that just before her BUURRN IT, she wants to occupy Darnassus. She will then use its inhabitants as hostages thinking the Alliance would think twice about attacking the Undercity.
Sure she is evil but I didn't think she forgets her motivations in a blink of an eye.
she wanted to take their hope with the head of malfurion iirc since saurfang didn't bring his head she took the other route.
The issue is continuing guerilla warfare. Sylvannas is aware that arthas suffered from hubris. She is aware that the high elves did as well with the forest trolls. Wiping out the whole thing and not holding it is a choice that didn't need to be made...but it does take out a wound that could definitely fester.
The big problem is she's seen these events play out before..In Garrosh. She saw how that ended..And yet she thinks taking the exact same path won't lead to the same fate?
She blighted Gilneas long before Garrosh even started to be a true villain. So far it paid up for her.
I can always count on you guys for good, balanced commentary. This was an amazing show, thank you.
Everyone defending the War of Thorns narrative seems to conveniently ignore that the entire point was to occupy Teldrassil, and, as far as players are shown, Sylvanas abruptly changed her plan--after she had already *won*--from conquest to genocide because a dying night elf mildly sassed her. I know, in the novellas, she gives the excuse that she "had" to do it because Saurfang didn't finish off Malfurion, which still doesn't explain why she acted like a friggin' Bond villain and walked away instead of doing it herself. And it still doesn't change the fact that holding Teldrassil and a bunch of hostages would be a *massive* strategic advantage towards her stated goal of keeping the Alliance off of Kalimdor.
Sylvanas was always evil, but she was always sold as being this cold, emotionless sociopath. What she did in this storyline wasn't cold sociopathy, it was cartoon supervillainy. She wasn't channeling Hannibal Lecter or Frank Underwood, she was channeling Skeletor or Cobra Commander. It was flat-out poor writing. Yes, the lack of any immediate reaction from the other Horde leaders made it worse--and that's an oversight that "Old Soldier" corrected admirably. But the underlying problem, that Sylvanas abruptly changed character from Gus Fring to Tuco Salamanca, still remains.
Now I'm just imagining Sylvanas with Skeletor's voice... xD
Yes!!!! Thank you!!!
Every time people say this, they always dismiss her encounter with the night elf and call it "Ohhh she is just upset and emotionally unstable, she can't handle a bit of sass". *Just because you don't like the outcome or the reason for actions doesn't mean that they are not legitimate reasons!* She did not burn down the tree because the "elf mildly sassed her", she did it because she realized that just capturing teldressil would not be enough to destroy the alliance's hope. So she burned it.
''from conquest to genocide because a dying night elf mildly sassed her. '' - You're not very bright are you? She clearly underestimated the resolve of the Night Elves, the captain made that clear when she said that Life and hope could never be killed. Destroying Teldrassil is LITERALLY destroying their hope.
As things are now you are completely right. On a bigger picture she still may have acted like the sociopath she is. Because burning the tree and starting a war as a whole might be only a plan to hold the horde itself hostage. Like she stated herself (again NOT in-game, ffs Blizz) There can be no prevailing peace with the Alliance, because of Greymane's hate against the forsaken and her. So it might be possible that now after the biggest known threat to Azeroth gone, she and the scourge will be the only target left. By forcing a war and dragging the horde on her side, she might buy enough time to bolster up her forsaken.
The big problem is: This is no story ark you can easily splitter into different parts because every single part on its own will seem like shitty writing. So imho Blizzard would have done themselves a big favor by starting the whole damn storyline after BfA released so you could embrace the whole story or at least bigger parts of it.
On the contrary, Evitel, I want the justification Sylvanas gives to Saurfang as an IGC. I wanted the Burning of Teldrassil as an IGC, not an animatic. I wanted Anduin figuring out Sylvanas' divide and conquer strategy as an IGC (juxtaposed against the justification one I referred to before).
I want *as much narrative as possible in the game.* I absolutely accept that it won't always be possible. In that regard, if they were going to do the same release schedule and mangle the presentation of the central plot thread in this way, they should've released part one of the novellas when chapter 1 released, and part 2 when chapter 2 released.
Asking for more may be a sign of entitlement, but we're only one expansion removed from WoD, and just a few years removed from Legacy of the Void. Let's not get ahead of ourselves with how much hope we can muster for narrative in Blizzard games.
Who else teared up during Taliesin's explanation of the Saurfang and Zappyboy moment??
As an Alliance player, I’ve been seeing a lot of guys out for blood in our Trade chat. All the talk has been about the Horde with Sylvanas it seems like, but burning Teldrassil really has gotten the Alliance going too.
I'm calling it though, Saurfang WILL DIE at the end of BfA. Giving him a honorable death fighting for what he believes in. Likely saving the player characters lives in the process, some epis send of.
Geraduss I don't think he will. He seems more like Old Snake in Metal Gear where he is pretty much cursed to outlive his allies who are more deserving of life.
I'd love to see him as Warchief, but after watching Old Soldier, I think he deserves an honorable death more than anything. He's been through enough, he's seen the Horde at its absolute best and its absolute worst (Twice now). The oldest soldier in the Horde, been there since the beginning..
I'd like to see him in Mok'gara against Sylvanis, even if he lost.
i believe it quite possible as well. for all of his strengths, Saurfang still represents the "old Horde" and is a product of that dysfunctional system. a good death, helping to pass the torch to a new generation of morally sound leaders and seeing its beginnings as his light goes out is the most appropriate end for his character.
syko188 before Blizzard starts killing off characters. They need to introduce more named characters to replace them.
Sorry Taliesin, but your wrong ☹️. You see, comparing the invasion of Gilneas to the burning of Teldrassil, you can't make the two scenarios equal, no .after what. First of all, Gilneas wasn't a city a majority of the player base can connect to since it hasn't been a city for anyone but the Gilneans. Second, at the time, Sylvanus was only the leader of the Undead, so her actions didn't affect the whole Horde, just the Undead. But with the burning of Teldrassil, this action is an act of the Horde, not just the Undead. In the past, she represented the Undead. ALSO, the battle for Gilneas was so small and effected such a small amount of people. Gilneas "existed" in game for at most an hour, so nobody really cared for it's removal. Teldrassil on the other hand, has existed since the creation of WoW. Anyways, that's my point, and hope you have a good day lol. 🔥🔥
Okay sorry I couldn't stop there. Basically what you said about Sylvanus not being Garrosh 2.0, is correct. She's worse. She basically did what he did to Theramore, but on a bigger scale, she has been making rash decisions, and we don't know if it will get worse or not
"in the past she represented the Undead" Nigga, she still does, the fact she now also represents the Horde doesnt make her "only a Warchief", she still wants to erradicate all life and the Undead to triumph over everyone
Wow get a life...
I think you're really reaching with Sylvanas not killing Malfurion. That's where everything falls apart narratively for me, not the burning of the tree.
It's a tired narrative 'technique' that you'd groan at if you saw in any Bond film, you shouldn't give it a pass here. Expect better from people you respect, don't give them a pass for everything.
+Joseph Parastatidis You don't think a Warchief should be able to trust her top general to carry out an order?
Taliesin & Evitel Do Games I think someone as smart as Sylvanas should know her top general. If her entire 'plan' originally hinged on her crushing their Hope and ending Malf, if it's so important, maybe stick around and make sure it gets done.
Also, since when did we start ascribing 'trusting' to her petsonality? I point to the Desolate Council, your honour, and the slaughtering of not just the turncoats, but the innocents as well...
Taliesin & Evitel Do Games Not when in it's already established how annoyed she is by said top general's obsession with honour in a book that was released briefly before the release of this quest. In Before the Storm she literally thinks to herself how aggravating the orcs and their honour is. If she knew Saurfang only half as well as she appears to do in Before the Storm, the last thing she would do is trust him to execute Malfurion in her absence.
I think perhaps a better question would be "why have Malfurion killed in a forest clearing, with zero Kal'dorei witnesses instead of dragging his defeated body in front of the denizens of Darnassus to be publicly executed?" I feel that would have properly broken their spirits, as was the apparent intent at the onset of this campaign, to hold the world tree.
Jesus you guys really think it is that big of a deal huh ?
Is that so hard to understand that what pissed everybody was just the fact that every f-ing time you need a baddie in World of Warcraft which is not the Legion nor the Old Gods, it HAS to be from the Horde. It's never the Alliance who screw up. Except when Jaina purged Dalaran and even then the evilness is discutable.
I love Sylvanas and I kinda like what's happening here but I'm very pissed to see my faction turned everytime as a baddies reserve from which you can pick vilains.
I want to see the Alliance screw up sometimes.
Love you T&E. That's not against you.
Lich King = Hordie? 👌
I must say I've felt this for some time watching your videos but the depth and detail this channel goes into reporting on the goings on within World of Warcraft harkens me back to a time of meaningful, impactful, and most importantly impartial media reporting. The stories told, with a humorous slant can only help, make me wish I was of higher means with which to properly show my support for this channel. Keep up the good work!
I don't often comment, and I in general love you guys, but I feel like I need to share here. Your definition of morally grey is by any measure of colloquial English speaking, incorrect. There's two generally acceptable paths for "morally grey" within narrative -- the right things for the wrong reasons, or the wrong things for the right reasons. Both of these instances introduce moral ambiguity by creating a fundamental discomfort around the decisions being made. It is completely unbelievable that not a single person has mentioned to Sylvanas, "Hey, burning a world tree might be a bad idea." There's no dubious morality here -- what Sylvanas is doing is evil. The only morally questionable part of it is "Why am I supporting this?" Am I staying loyal to the Horde because I believe in the greater pieces of the Horde and what it means above this Warchief? Am I staying with the Horde so I can try to save what's left of the Horde? Those questions are the "morally grey" questions and they aren't being asked in game at all. Saurfang treads that way in Stormwind when he points out the conflict between honor and loyalty, but that isn't quite the same thing.
And while I appreciate the argument of "There's no Horde non-player druids involved in Darkshore/Teldrassil," there are still Tauren, who are culturally aware of the significance of the World Tree. While yes, Saurfang is the only other Horde leader depicted as being there, it's not like Baine/Lor'themar/Roh'kan (if you want to count him)/Thalryssa/Mayla are somehow going to NOT find out about it. It's the fact that burning a World Tree given what we've seen and presumably reported back about on Argus wasn't enough to cross the line for the rest of the Horde and basically amounts to Saurfang joining Thrall in his black-walled bedroom blasting Hawthorne Heights and wearing exclusively pants purchased at Hot Topic.
I understand this is the start of the narrative, but it's a narrative with existing characters -- it's TOO MUCH of a catalyst. Teldrassil is WELL PAST the line of raising eyebrows from the rest of the Horde. This is a classic shark jumping, and the rest of the narrative becomes unbelievable because the scale of Sylvanas's actions are so overwhelming by the time BfA begins that's it's a wonder how she isn't a pre-patch raid boss.
I do agree that the people who are upset about Sylvanas's characterization frankly haven't been paying attention. As her Warbringer shows us, she's still trapped in the day of her death. The frustrating part, as a now ex-horde player, isn't Sylvanas being Sylvanas, it's the rest of the Horde ABIDING Sylvanas AFTER Garrosh.
All of that being said, I think if there's one thing Old Soldier does incredibly well, and this is where I give Blizzard heaps upon heaps of credit -- there's a VERY beautiful parallel drawn between Saurfang and Jaina now, which is something I never thought I'd say. It's even enhanced by the Arthas call backs throughout warbringers -- if you remember, Jaina cries over the honor Varian shows in allowing Saurfang to take his boy's corpse. I do think the sheer volume of Arthas we're getting in the prelude to BfA here is very interesting.
But, in total, I do think this is a narrative let down. I think it's a poor format for the narrative (as in a MMO is the wrong place to tell this story in the way that it is presented, as players do not have the options to express themselves within the game's narrative to show their comfort levels with Sylvanas), I think requiring a ton of out-of-game material to have a cohesive narrative is even worse, and I think the narrative as it is presented does a piss poor job of juggling characters. Thalryssa just joined the Horde after escaping a tyrant to be greeted by Sylvanas. It's like Blizzard just forgets what narrative threads they've been dangling for a while.
To me, as an outsider looking in, Blizzard doesn't have a master continuity editor is what it looks like, and it's very frustrating for the community because we collectively are a continuity editor.
+HeyGarzek You can't pair "doing the right thing for wrong reasons" and vice versa with "ambiguous". In the first instance you know the reasons (because otherwise how can you say someone is doing the wrong thing for the right reasons), in the second instance you arent sure of the reasons (ambiguity)
How about the culling of Stratholme? You can do bad things while thinking this is for a long term good (and be wrong about that in the case of Arthas). The ambiguity comes from two things:
1: the fact that even though your ulteriore motive is good, you're still doing bad things, so overall it's a combination of both (hence balance, justifications etc.)
2: the fact that you're gambling on the future (but you are sure of the reasons).
Please do consider writing more about your thoughts, they are very interesting!
Yeah, I'm not really on board with this definition of morally grey. It's way more complicated than "reasons and actions are mismatched."
What upsets me, personally, is the fact they limited somewhat important parts of the story to the outside-of-the-game sources. Also, before Teldrassil, I was fine with Sylvanas actions because there has always been some kind of reasoning behind it that we knew about from the start and were presented with it IN GAME. They could've hinted to us that she knew Malfurion survived BEFORE SHE BURNED THE GOD DAMN TREE. They should've hinted to us IT WAS A POSSIBILITY SAURFANG WAS AWARE OF, EVEN THOUGH HE DID NOT AGREE WITH IT. They should've told us Greymane was planning an attack on Lordaeron IN GAME, not in a novel that was limited to CE. This is what upsets me. Because now, we have people left and right calling Sylvanas crazy, without knowing anything about the story, and you can't blame them, because it's so poorly delivered in game, even I, a lore nerd, almost gave up on them.
I do not have the CE of BfA and was unaware that Greymane was planning to attack Lordaeron before she attacked the tree. Can you cite the passage and page number so I can check it out? It doesn't come close to saving the story but it does make it a little better.
Quintin Parry I don't have it either. Found it on WoWhead, within the comments. It's suppose to be on the same page(s) as the "how long peace between the horde and alliance could last?" part. I couldn't find the entire novel anywhere myself, which is giving me the big sad.
+Jezus Chrustus That is too bad I would like to stay as informed and without the source material it is difficult to evaluate the information and update my overall understanding of the situation.
Old Soldier is exactly why this Sylvanas story is so horrible. Saurfang is the type of leader the Horde wants, but Blizzard prefers to give us villains. Instead of Thrall, or perhaps Cairne, we got Garrosh, who we then had to depose. Instead of Saurfang, we got Sylvanas, who all signs point to us having to depose. This isn't a fun and interesting story for us, it's more of the same, giving us something we didn't want and then making us get rid of it. I know, I know, maybe that's not what's going to happen, but you can't deny that that's how it feels. Sylvanas supposedly has some grand destiny, as whispered by the loa to Vol'jin, but all we've got so far is the same petty villainy, the same genocide we've already rejected. I don't feel conflicted, I feel shafted.
Supposedly just about anyone/thing can become a Loa. So who even knows what Loa whispered to Vol'jin about the horde needing her in the future. For all we know it could've literally been Old God whispers, even. =/
Not only that - the horde characters follow their bad leaders into everything and only when the world is going to burn they realize "hmm my leader is not as good as I thought - lets get our honour back"
So frkn idiotic.
JellicleCat09 Dude BFA has just started, don't talk like entire story is right in front of us, for all we know this expansion may turn out the best yet, and about "that's how it feels" that's exactly what blizzard wants us to feel, hence the cenematic
If blizzard is taking the risk of infuriating half their player base, don't you think they are doing it for a reason?
And i personally don't think its gonna be Garrosh 2.0, i think there will be a redemption for Sylvanas (doesn't mean she will survive though)
I for one, find this interesting and instead of getting angry, wanna sit back and see which direction blizzard now takes it to
“Old Soldier” hit me right in the feels!
If you have to read collectors edition books and watch external cinematics to understand the basic motivations for a story in the game then you're doing something wrong. Flesh out the world don't use it to explain the basic story. Additionally there is nothing that expands on any of this in-game on the beta at least.
Agreed, the game narrative needs to be coherent as it is the main experience.
Yeah it’s the same thing that people said Destiny 1 with the grimore stuff. “The game has a really deep story you just have to go to an app/book/podcast/movie/comic outside of the game to get that story.” That’s more of an admission of failure of the games storytelling methods since you HAVE to go outside the game for it
But there was a basic motivation explained, destroy the alliance's hope, lmfao, people's getting butthurt for shit they were the ones to think was going to be different. Blizzard never implied that someone outer than Sylvanas burned the damn tree, it was tinfoil hat fuckers who did that, not them.
Ohini Anahi Uhki That isn’t a motivation that is a goal and a method. Why does she want to destroy the alliances hope? Just because they’re the alliance? The reason is explained in the collectors edition books and not in game
Have you at least done the scenario? She literally explains that when she hands out the quest, fuck off.
In WotLK, my computer hated Dalaran... Being a mage, Darnassas was always easily accessible and with no one there, my computer was happy. There was a Reagent Vendor, Alaindia, that I would visit to stock up, buy my reagents and sell my vendor trash. I looked for her specifically during the quest, but I was unable to find her. Years and years seeing her and selling to her, only to not be able to find my friend and bring her to safety. It hurt.
I disagree with your definition of "Morally Gray" that's not what that term means but it is not something I'm going to go off on when someone has clearly explained it earlier in the comments. Peace.
The reason people didnt like story isnt because Sylvanas was the vandal. If there had not been so much hype and theories about it 99 percent of people would say "Hey, Sylvanas did this obviously.". I dont understand why so many companies everywhere organize this short term hypes when it is obvious it will not end well in terms of community reactions. I mean if this mystery is what will sell the game hide the truth and wait till people buy the game and game actually starts. I like this set of events tough theoricaly Saurfang can finaly be the Warchief.
baha Ka to be honest they made the mistake at BlizzCon by showing it too soon. They hedged because they didn't want people hating on it like they're hating right now. Horde players loathe being pinned as the bad guys. So...yeah.
Dembai They didnt want people get upset for Horde being evil now people are upset because they expected more. They should have never made Sylvanas the Warchief at the first place.
Like Evitel, I also struggled with the decision of what to do and whom to save during the time-limited quest as Darnassus burned. The last thing I did was say goodbye to the wooden squirrel bank. My favorite Alliance bank! One last glimpse of that giant wooden squirrel-still with that fierce, defiant, save-for-the-future-or-else look on its face, even as it burned-that’s how my character spent his last moments in Darnassus before succumbing to the smoke-filled air.
Personally I feel they should've allowed some indication that our characters or other Horde characters disagreed with Sylvanas' actions. But you see none of that before the end with Saurfang, and that makes it feel like our characters are just perfectly fine with slaughtering and burning thousands of innocent people. I wish they would've sold the "Sylvanas and the Horde are evil" thing on the Alliance side but made the Horde side of the story to be a little deeper.
Even Nathanos hesitated carrying out her order, and he follows her without question. I think that says a lot on its own.
If they had given me a quick time event to cheer or grieve, I would be fine right now. I don't often RP, but I actually yelled in emotes the first time I played through. And seriously the amount of horde players who are still sitting on the shore in silence...it is insane.
Yesterday I went back to dalaran to get my shoulders off and I saw a nelf Druid. I apologized. She cried. I hugged her and we both emotes crying. Because this is all so wrong.
And to be honest, this is hell. War is hell. And we had friends on the other side. And as much as people have been claiming they wanted a war... they're lying. War is not fun. Not at all.
Dembai war is fun while in-game cuz you can see what is war about+ you get to BBQ some Nelfs and that's awsome. FOR THE HORDE !
lol everyone is bitching about horde killing some fucking night elves who deserve to die cuz they are alliance but when Jaina kills every man woman and child in dalaran who is sunreaver it's okey... Yes they kept some as prisoners.. so did horde in lor'danel so quit bitching around and slaughter them all !
Jaina only killed the ones that fought back there rest were imprisoned or fled. She gave them a chance to leave and they refused, so she forced them out.
Blame Garrosh for that anyways he was the one who framed all the sunreavers for it.
Zappyboi Zekhan, son of Hekazi.
Dats me, mon.
Love you man. No hard feelings for killing you on the battlefight, a'ight?
Well done! I can never get enough of these videos! Super smart stuff.
Ok, here we go - first. Speaking for myself, I'm not "angry". It's a game. I'm disappointed. And it's not because Sylv did anything out of character. It's because externally, Blizzard have done something they haven't done to this degree, if ever, before - lull the playerbase into false expectations that they were going to do something new narratively with their characters; something with nuancé and subtlety. They didn't.
You can argue all you like about morally grey this or that. I disagree with you about what that means for a story (something that other commenters here seem to understand - she's morally black. It really is that simple), and you can try your damndest to back it up with external after the fact sources (that you jokingly pass off as not using to justify your argument, even though you are) that Blizzard should arguably be showing in game if they want people to understand the full nuancé of the narrative. It still doesn't alter that fact that this is still the same repetitive character "motivation" over and over with little regard for the adult sensibilities of the players who were obviously desperate for something better. This seemly evil for evil's sake just doesn't cut it, and in the light of the Old Soldier short, it actually now feels even more like cheap writing just to justify Saurfang's reaction for easy emotional point scoring off of the playerbase.
Using real war and/or books to justify bad writing is also redundant. I have no idea what you call good writing, but subjectively, this isn't it and it's not what excites me narratively. As for real world events - that has so little meaning to good plot in media as to be irrelevant, but I will say that people trying to use this excuse to justify either side of this argument is preposterous for a fantasy game.
Knowing Sylvs motivations up front are irrelevant. Again, it's not her rubbish and always obviously machiavellian mustache twirling that's the issue, it's the fact that Blizzard were setting us up for something deeper than that. You know it just by you own videos expressing excitement for who it could possibly be and why these options would be so exciting for various characters moving forward. Justifying this easy narrative route now just feels disingenuous.
Opinions are great and it's always nice when people can express them calmly and/or passionately with reason. Were we can agree is that the shit storm of people going after writters via twitter is nothing but a disgrace. I'll finish by saying that I amire almost everything you put out, but your justification of everything Blizzard has done here is pretty much as expected at this point. It seems to be your go to repose. Which is fair enough, it's your content. It was certainly nice to see other WoW fan content providers being able to express just as well thought out but contrary opinions to yours.
Regardless, keep up the amazing work.
Steve Docherty if anything this was garrosh 2.0 because they revealed this during BlizzCon and realized it was a mistake right after saying it. They tried to hedge and lie last time...but no one bought it. They hedged and lied this time and the only difference is that people bought it.
They realized the second they showed that tree on fire that they had to say that it was maybe not what it looked like.
And they did the same thing with garrosh. 'and the final boss is garrosh...but..uhh..well... Maybe it won't turn out the way you think...there a lot of story folks'
'and you can see sylvannas in front of teldrassil...but ..uhh..well..maybe it won't turn out the way you think,..there a lot of story folks'!,
Yeah. Like that.
I love your longer vids guys keeps me entertained always
your Old Soldier Analysis hit me even harder then the cinematic. you had me crying.
Elves of Hyjal stop your dreaming
Can't you see their spear points gleaming
See their Hordish Pennants streaming
To this battle field
Elves of Hyjal stand ye steady
It cannot be ever said ye
For the battle were not ready
Stand and never yield
From the hills rebounding
Let this war cry sounding
Summon all at Elune's call
The mighty force surrounding
Elves of Hyjal onto glory
This shall ever be your story
Keep these fighting words before ye
'We fight for Teldrassil'
(with sincere apologies to the brave men and women of Wales for whom the original song has real meaning) (and to the night elves for not doing a particularly good job of adapting it.)
Well Done /
finally! this is the kind of positivity i need in my life!
I love the point you brought up about the druids (and maybe all the Tauren) not being in Darkshore, but actually have been sent to Silithus - which is true. Such a minor detail that makes so much difference and sense! As you pointed earlier, the cinematic already distanced the Horde player and Saurfang from Sylvannas' decision, but to make sure the most incompatible horde people wouldn't even be there (the ones that might break the honor and loyalty ties in the name of the greater good) is just brilliant. My tauren druid have now experienced the entire questline by hearing it from a friend, not done it himself.
ZAPPY BOI
Icy_ ZAPPY BOI FOR WARCHIEF 2019
You are kind of missing the most important criticism about Sylvanas: why in the hell did Blizzard make her warchief in the first place? This is a morally very corrupt character whose actions most horde players and lore characters don't agree with. Vol'jin said "many will not understand this decision" but he was clearly sure it was a good one. So what in the hell was Vol'jin's reasoning or what exactly did the Loa tell him? There is a very large chance that this does get cleared up in BfA. But there is a small chance that Blizzard won't even clear this up and it'll just go down in history as another horribly written plot-line on the level of Garrosh.
The Old Gods fear the dead.
Probably the ones whispering to Voljin werent the Loas?
Taliesin you have changed my mind on this, thank you for helping me reconcile this not only as a player but from my own characters perspective.
I'm sorry, Taliesin, much as I Iove the channel in general and think you and Evitel are 2 of the wittiest, dapperest wow youtubers in existence, I can't completely agree with you about Sylvanas. Yes, she has done things almost any socially well adjusted person would label evil. I completely agree her character in the game is a sociopath. But one of the ways this has served her is by allowing her to keep a cool head and objectively, unemotionally calculate each move. She has never been a hothead. Yet the burning of Teldrassil shows her emotionally triggered by the words of a dying enemy into a rash, ill thought out decision. Sylvanas is well aware of how highly some Horde subfactions prize honour. She ruminates over it in the novel as she considers how to gain their support for her plan to raise any dead which result from an ambitious invasion of Stormwind. So I do see this impetuous decision with huge implicated consequences as out of character. It also seems to me that one of the things that made her an interesting, layered character so far (to me anyway) was her love for and fierce commitment to her people. Before the Storm has her turning even on some of her own people still deeply loyal to her.
Personally, I think that a character of her stature in lore with such an established level of player interaction in game deserved a better story than this lightning descent into one dimensional cartoon villainy, and so did the players who have invested years of their life in game in loyal support of the more interesting, textured Sylvanas as their subfaction leader. As you say, we all have an opinion, and this is mine.
Agreed, "strangely" the majority of anti-narrative (bad writting) responses I see addressed by people are the obviously silly ones like Sylvanas is not evil. These are not the true concerns of the fan base. Address our true concerns or accept them as valid.
"But one of the ways this has served her is by allowing her to keep a cool head and objectively, unemotionally calculate each move. She has never been a hothead."
Umm ... wasn't her entire motivation prior the death of Arthas, vengeance against Arthas? That is, by its very nature, and emotional drive. Then there is her throwing her ass of ICC with little consideration to what would happen to Forsaken without her. Then there is her entire current motivation, which is driven by an existential terror of returning the that hellish afterlife she experienced after her second death at the foot of ICC. Her bolstering of the Forsaken, her slaughtering and raising of humans in Southshore and elsewhere, her attempted enslavement of Ayir to get access to unlimited Valkyr (as well as her tentative allegiance with Hellya) ALL driven by that singular fear.
Then of course there is the conclusion of her arc in War Crimes, where THIS is a thing after Vareesa decides her being there for her sons is more important to her than vengeance against Garrosh (which in turn saved her life from Sylvanas who had, unbeknownst to Vareesa, planned on killing and raising her sister once she assassinated Garrosh). "After learning of the plan's failure, the Banshee Queen rampaged through the wilderness, angrily killing any wildlife unfortunate enough to get in her way and proclaiming that she would never attempt to love again." I mean just look at this reaction of this apparent "cool headed, objective, and unemotional sociopath".
She may come off as cold and calculating on the battlefield, but she's never NOT been driven by emotions; and she's certainly made big snap-decisions based off an emotional response. Hell, look at the 3 Sisters comic for a recent example where she decides to make a split-second decision to spare her two sister's lives apparently because Vareesa apologizes to her for her failure to follow through in War Crimes. If she was really as cold and calculating as people insist, she would have followed through with her plan to assassinate both her sisters ... because both Vareesa AND Alyria are massive threats to her objectives as well as herself. But, she didn't, for no apparent "logical" reason.
I don't really think she's always one and never the other with regards to whether or not she is considered a hothead. If she was always one way or the other, she would not be as interesting as she has been.
+CardButton, I responded to another one of your post with a similar theme. My other response is more in-depth but I will briefly address your points here.
1. One can be cold and calculating for personal reasons such as revenge. I will concede that two different definitions of the word cold are being used here. Cold when referring to human emotions can mean without personal interest like how you use it or with out normal human emotions such as compassion or friendliness (Merriam-Websters Collegiate Dictionary, Eleventh Edition). I believe here we just have a miss understanding. If she is motivated first by revenge and then by a desire to not die again but follows well laid out plans ignoring compassion to obtain them she remains cold and calculating.
2. One does not have to be cold and calculating at all times to be considered cold and calculating. It is true that, the murder of wildlife after one of her plans goes awry is impulsive and serves no point. This does make her less calculating but no one accuses her every decision as being calculating. The murder of wildlife is ultimately unimpactful and as such this singular incident does not greatly define her character especially when her whole life (unlife?) is considered. Her major life choices remain far more important in the determination of her character.
3. The Three Sisters comic never states that she plans to kill or betray her sisters. This is conjecture drawn from the assumption that her one lie was "I will never betray you my sisters," and the last panel of the comic. I personally agree that she had drawn up plans to kill her sisters but it can still be argued that she didn't. My rebuttal is, we don't know why she had planned to kill her sisters. If she was dead set on killing them why go through the whole journey together? Why not kill them at the start or any point sooner? An ambush while they were being attacked would have been a much better place and time to strike and Sylvanas had that option. It seems far more probable that she went there to decide if she was going to kill them. This is confirmed by the fact that a signal was required to start the attack, there was always the chance that the signal would not be give and the sisters would not be killed. Ultimately this whole situation is based on a lot of conjecture and should not be used as a main piece of evidence to determine her character because we don't know enough.
Love you so much Taliesin and Evitel you two do the best anlysis in youtube. I am glad you are doing this because i got better understanding of the things that happen around World of Warcraft. Thank you
I was so excited when you noticed the hand thing Saurfang did with his son and Zappy Boi!!!! I thought no one else had noticed!
I don't have a problem with what she did or why she did it but the short novellas make her original plan from our perspective make no sense
(spoilers)
She claims she wants to take Teldrasil to fracture the Alliance and cause In fighting. like the Gilnaens will be upset if the Alliance jumps to take back Teldrasill when they still haven't helped Gilnaes,but then on the Alliance side of the story Gen states he wouldn't be upset at all after all the Night elves have done for him
She didn't know that. But I agree with you that she made no sense. Maybe she no longer understood how living beings thought.
Shepard I know she didn't know and it makes sense from her point of view but much like with how Jaina being pissed at the Horde for the broken shore didn't make sense to us because we looked at from both sides.
I don't think the problem was the burning of the tree. I think the problem was the way that she chose to do it. She burnt down the tree after a night elf made her mad? Before she talked to the elf she was going to invade the tree not burn it. Not to mention she doesn't kill malfurian when she had the chance which was her primary goal. That's why it's bad writing because the actions leading up to the event leading up. Sure the book says that sylvanas wanted sourfang to do it. But when has sylvanas been one to rely on another person any other time in the lore. She has always tried to save the undead without help from the other races or even other undead.
Joshua Friedland That is it exactly; these two actions seem our if character for her-- everything else is pretty much in line. I've chosen to view both as tests, a test of Saurfang's willingness to follow and a banner for the Horde as well-- get in line or prepare to deal with me. It makes it much better, bit if that was the intention it wasn't clear, which is pretty poor writing. However, nobody is a great writer 100% of the time.
The "A good war" story expands on the whole "She burned it because night elf made her mad.". Her plan was still up to that point capturing the tree but she was also informed that Saurfang failed to kill Malfurion. (By extension Saurfang is happy that he failed because of his honour, he also through his happyness knows his actions will kill more horde once malfurion recovers). But she still wished to end the hope of the Kaldorei. So burning their capital was a means to make them surrender.
She was hoping for a Hiroshima/Nagasaki. What she got in the end was a Pearl Harbour.
Thrilalia Can we talk about Tyrande and Malfurion straight up abandoning their people to torment and death, though? Because, I really feel we should be talking about that. The Horde is on their doorstep, and they bail to Stormwind. Seriously, guys? Nelfs are the worst!
Well I guess she just got an idea how to take hope from the nelf. She realized they hope is not in malfurion not in tyrande... It's in their beloved tree.
Aubrey Sorenson Yeah that was pathetic. So typical... Those 2 are useless. Malfurion was a joke in Legion too. Maybe they wanted this?
That Henry V reference was amazing, thank you very much for that
I actually saved like 60 people, which apparently is a lot?
I got 102
Yeah it is a lot, every time I tried to save a night elf someone else beat me to it. Think I saved like 25 people, they should honestly boot me from the alliance for that 🤣
Now please stop treating elemental shaman as shit bliz. Tired of it. Zappyboi save us!
Zappy boi is an enhancement shaman. I saw him use sundering.
Semi He does seem like an ele shaman dude hate to break it to u
Semi check the original trailer. He jumps on greymane and then boy king starts to slamming on him(he's using a 1h + shield), just saying
I know he seems like an ele shaman. I just know that he used sundering which is an enhance spell. Enhance can do lightning bolt. So Zappy boi has done things ele can't do but hasn't done anything enhance can't do. Its just like Anduin performing priest spells so people don't know if he is a paladin or priest based on the cinematic (He is definitely a disc priest).
That part has nothing to do with game mechanics. It is common sense in a war to bring a shield with you. Anduin was fighting with a sword in melee combat although he is obviously a priest. You have to do what you have to do in times of war. So Zappy a proud enhance shaman brought a shield with him for protection.
Great Vid! This Saurfang cinematic got my blood pumping and my heart racing again!
Btw, Taliesin quoting Henry V to the scene was amazing... and so fitting! Who else would love a series of WoW videos with a voiceover of Taliesin quoting Shakespeare and other literary works?
But I have a more serious question..... DO YOU EVEN BLINK BRO?? :o
I disagree with most of what you said. But I will limit my reaction.
First
Burning Teldrassil is different from the destruction of Gilneas. Gilneas was close to the Undercity. It's very existence is a threat. Therefore it must be destroyed in order to protect the Forsaken. There is no emotion behind the destruction. There is no good or evil. It is simply necessary.
The destruction of Teldrassil serves no purpose. It was not necessary. On the contrary destroying the tree will unite the Alliance, obviously. That would be clear to Sylvanas who has been fighting since before the second war.
Sylvanas is cold, calculating, ruthless and focussed. The burning was not planned. It was not calculated. Sylvanas was not focussed . The burning was ordered in a hissy fit to spite a dying night elf.
Mistakes are made in war. Sometimes because a general just isn't up to the job (McClellan, Pope, Burnside, Hooker during the US civil war), or because a general need some ego stroking (Montgomery and Operation Market Garden), or because the enemy is underestimated (The British during the Boer wars), or because a general is learning (Grant at Shiloh). None of this applies to Sylvanas who is a very competent, very experienced general who does not need her ego stroked (if she still has one) and who knows her enemy very well. She does not general based on hissy fits.
Her drive is to protect the Forsaken. Everything she does can be drawn back to that point. The council wants a picnic with the living. Saying 'no' would divide the Forsaken, so 'yes' it is. There are forsaken who entertained the thought of leaving? Kill them. Only in unity can we survive. Calia is trying to divide the Forsaken? Dead, it is.
That is completely missing from the order to burn Teldrassil. Anybody with half a brain could work out that would lead to an attack on the Undercity and threaten the Forsaken. This also happens in real life. Japan bombs Pearl Harbor? The US bombs Tokio (the Doolittle Raid). The Nazi's bomb London? The British bomb Berlin.
There could be a method behind her madness if she wanted to antagonize the Alliance into gathering their forces in one place and then either annihilating their armies or attacking Stormwind, the Exodar, Ironforge while the Alliance armies are busy being blighted. Sacrifice one piece to take three. There is no evidence of this.
Based on the above arguments I conclude that ordering the burning of Teldrassil is completely out of character.
Second
Blizzard set up the burning of Teldrassil as a mystery where the players could guess and speculate. But all the time it was just Sylvanas. Boring. Easy. Lazy.
A great opportunity for story-telling wasted.
A point you didn't raise but a reason I severely dislike the current story-telling
Blizzard is saying we have a choice. But I chose in the summer of 2008. That's when I started playing a troll. He was part of the Horde. Because trolls are part of the Horde. The Darkspear Tribe is too small to survive alone. They need to unite and join a powerful faction in order to survive. Especially given how tolerant the Alliance is (the only good troll is a dead troll). My character has no choice. He is part of the Horde, because without the Horde he would be dead. I want to choose the Magni faction or the Saurfang faction, but I can't. I can go in one direction: the one of the quests. Either I quit the game or be complicit in all the [bad things] Sylvanas does. The fact that Sylvanas went bat-shit crazy evil does not change my character and yet it does, because he is forced to serve this evil creature.
At least a German soldier during WWII had the option of choosing to resist if he found out about the government he was fighting for (the Einsatzgruppen; the razzia's,; the trains; the death camps; the gas chambers;, the ovens; the piles of shoes, watches, gold teeth etc.; the slaughter, looting and raping.) My character just has to do the bloody quests (as in spill blood) and hope at some point Blizz stops making the Horde act like effing nazi scum. I am not happy to be made a nazi.
YMMV
Brilliant comment! Thank you for putting all this so eloquently and elegantly. There are Shrek-level layers to why this doesn't work, and you've hit on all of them with the precision Sylvanas used to have.
Sylvanas isn't dumb, she isn't rash, she doesn't jeopardize her main motivation--her people, the Forsaken--by allowing herself a hissyfit over "destroying hope" (besides, since when did "destroying hope" become a theme, plotline, character motivation for her?). She has always been described as "always thinking" and "always thinking three steps ahead/second and third order of effects", and that is why, I assume, a lot of people are quite upset with this. Sylvanas evil? Yeah she was teetering on that edge for awhile, usually falling a bit one way or another because of how the Forsaken connected to what she was supposed to do. But Sylvanas rash, not thinking things through, acting on childish emotions? That's where the upset with her character progression is coming from. Plus, to go back to "destroying hope", all Sylvanas has done is reunite the Alliance, and spur on the rage of the Night Elves, who will fight even more furiously, because a people without a home or home base get a natural Bloodlust from their tragic circumstances. Sylvanas SHOULD know this, so why do her strategies and tactics not reflect this? An experienced general like herself would be so aware of this it hurts.
Sylvanas has always been written that she knows better than to do the exact ridiculous things that she was written to do in the War of Thorns. She is brilliant, calculating, ruthless, anticipatory, aware. It's not an issue of "How come you guys didn't realize Sylvanas was evil?" It's an issue of her type of evil/moral ambiguity came from her brilliant, calculating, three-steps-ahead and aware of any backlash tactics and strategies. Sylvanas was never a Bond Villain. And if the burning of Teldrassil was written with Sylvanas coming up with cold, but genius plans, it would be more widely accepted. Sylvanas being childlike in her emotional responses and pulling Bond Villain moves is what pushes this into not okay territory.
Sorry for the long comment, hope this all makes sense - bilingual brain can make it English not good sometimes lol :P And thx for the MVP comment, Kailhun; it's so well-written and on-point :)
Congrats on partnering with wowhead! So excited for this partnership!
FOR THE HORDE!
While I like your videos and normally find your commentary insightful, I disagree with most of what you said here. If nothing else, whatever lies ahead, killing hype for most of one faction is maybe not the best way to start things. Liked the intro sketch though.
+Mike L I woukd totally agree but the fact is all this horde story has made me want to log into my horde characters much more than my alliance ones. This is one hyped horde player, it totally worked on me 😃
Taliesin & Evitel Do Games May I respectfully suggest you are not the typical Horde player... if such a beast can be said to exist. One can disagree over whether or not the upset over this is justified, but I think it hard to argue that a non-trivial percentage of the Horde playerbase felt despondent and less enthused for BfA than they were before it, and Old Soldier, while wonderful, did not change this. Just a look at your comments section I think reveals this.
Mike L "such beasts" do exist within horde too, we just don't hawl so much in comment sections like you guys do, if you don't believe me look at the like/dislike bar of the video. Just because you see many people whineing in comment sections about sylvanas and the actions of the horde, it does not mean it's the vast majority of horde players. And I am hype as hell about what will Sylv and Horde will do in future, it is the same trough every expansion, the horde gets the better story-telling and makes you wonder what will happen next. Sorry not sorry for being part of a "villan faction" FTH
Radu Alexandru Like/dislike doesn’t mean they agree. Just that they liked the video. I don’t agree with it and I liked it. Taliesin is hugely entertaining and funny even when he has his head up his... ah, even when we disagree.
Clearly there are Horde players who signed up to be a villain and I’m sure they are well pleased, although they may not like how all this ends. I don’t think they’re a majority. I do think the number at least mildly put off by this is. Can I prove that? No. But I think it’s hard to dispute that whatever the percentage is, it isn’t a small one.
Evitel! the Nightsaber vendor survived, along with all the kitties!!! They are in the back of Stormwind, by the Embassy (on the farm side). I found them the other day, and spent some time wandering around, looking at the refugees, the kitties are all laying down like they don't feel very good.
Yeah, more tears. I swear, this expansion has really made me reconnect with how much I enjoy the game itself. The little things that touch my heart. And Shakespeare? Taliesin...perfect. Absolutely perfect.
5:00 I went to the forums...all sweet and innocent like the WoW player I was... those discussions went so off topic that it crashed and burned way more than any of the world trees we were supposedly discussing...
Don't ever go to the forums. Its where all the whiners and malcontents go who still cant figure out their class rotation to save their life.
The single reason why I dislike Sylvanas now is because she's *LEADING* the Horde now; orcs, trolls, tauren, goblins, etc. Back before, she was only leading the forsaken and not the entire Horde itself. Forsaken, and maybe goblins, would be okay with burn children and innocent people but orcs, tauren, trolls, blood elves, would never be. She is now forcing Horde members to do terrible things they wouldn't ever be okay with doing, that's why Saurfang is losing faith in the Horde because Sylvanas isn't destroying the hope of the nightelves, she's destroying the hope of the Horde.
Forcing Horde players to follow evil leaders is a very, very, stupid design choice. The worst thing you can do in a game with two factions is alienate an entire faction from it's former self. Some players will leave, some players will cry about it, some won't care, others will quit the game entirely (Don't underestimate how emotional people can get).
I switched from nelf to nightbourne when I found out I get to burn teldrassil lmao
I agree, and she chose the least aggressive Alliance leader to kill. It's like Alliance started a war with trying to kill Thrall.
I was on the fence because of class design: Why bother leveling a character if there's no clear class progression?
But I thought it might be fun to explore the new zones. (I even used the free Boost to create an Alliance alt, so that I could enjoy the complete experience.}
But now that I see my chosen faction is just there to get the Alliance players hyped, I'd rather just watch Kdramas.
You made me turn the bell on over this last month. this video was the tipping point. This video was so freaking good and needed to be said. Thank you.
Taliesin, you seem to be continuously neglecting the importance of Teldrassil. With Andrassil being corrupted by Yogg, Valdrassil recovering from being compromised with the remnants of the nightmare, and Nordassil still recovering from the events of WC3 and the cataclysm, Teldrassil was the only world tree that still offered a strong connection to the dream. The green dragonflight, the vanguards of the dream, is almost entirely destroyed, making this world tree even more important for the defense of the planet.
When Sylvanas burned the tree, she wasn’t just burning a city. She was destroying one of the planet’s final defenses against the taint of the old gods. Your arguments seem to be directed toward understanding the burning of DARNASSUS, not the actual world tree.
This is neglecting the fact that Sylvanas doesn’t even ask Saurfang for Malfurion’s corpse. Your guys’ arguments about leaving the killing blow on Malfurion doesn’t address the fact that Sylvanas’ reaction was happening without her plan A being seen to completion. She wanted to use his corpse to destroy their hope but she didn’t even see Plan A through before she decided to burn down one of Azeroth’s most important lines of defense.
Fuck discussing the justifications behind her burning the Alliance city. This is about compromising the safety of the entire planet, including Sylvanas and her people. She has always been very deliberate and calculating, so for her to make an emotional decision at all is unusual. For her to make a purely emotional decision with ramifications for the survival of her people and everyone on the planet is absolutely out of character, regardless of what you’ve yet offered as reasoning for it. This was an incredibly stupid move when it comes to her own defenses against any grand threat, and Sylvanas should have known this. It’s not pouring blight on a random field, it’s destroying the last strong tether to nature magic, which has been essential in defending the entire planet from continuous threats for thousands of years.
I never thought about this point of view as Teldrassil being last remaining world tree. That makes sense to how N'zoth breaks free later. I wonder if Sylvanas was aware of the ramifications for burning Teldrassil, the last world tree.
I agree and disagree on the morally grey thing.
I agree that it was never said Sylvanas was morally grey. The Horde does not only consist of her, but also of characters like Baine and Saurfang.
I agree that morale grey does not mean, that everybody has to be equally good or evil. There can still be darker and brighter greys.
I do though disagree on you definition of "morally grey". It *does not* mean, that a person or faction commits atrocities for no feasible reason. It means that the action of a character or faction can be seen as either good or bad or lukewarm depending on for point of view, priorities and ethic understandings. And telling your viewers they don't understand the concept, cause they don't share your definition is a little patronizing, now isn't it.
The stillness in the wind before the Hurricane begins.DYLAN>
Holy crap theres drinking the coolaid and then theres freebasing it! The story is recycled. I suppose we can look forward to the videos getting all choked up over Baine being the "true heart" of the horde when they have Saurfang get stabbed by a Naga and putting Gallywix on the throne. If it's the troupe of Warchief get's corrupted and then replaced by "old-guard" Horde its Garrosh 2.0.
26:15 *That's what she said*
As a dedicated Horde main who’ve never leveled an alliance character, i’ve been feeling pretty down about the whole prepatch situation.
Old Soldier is truly amazing, and thank you for showing me how amazing it really was.
Suddenly, the future doesn’t look that grim.
I legit love your vids and all the good stuff you bring to this community so thank you for that. That said, I strongly disagree with your assessment on the Sylvanas issue. The arguments you make really seem to cherry pick the weaker points you disagree with that are being posted on the forums, while sidestepping altogether the major ones that remain unaddressed.
1. The 'dumb military decision' wasn't the burning of the tree (though a city full of hostages and resources might've been more useful than a pile of ash). The dumb military decision was invading at all under the pretext that killing Malfurion was going to "stop a war before it began", as she states was the objective of this entire invasion. Let's try something for a moment: Alliance players, please raise your hand if you were planning on surrendering to the Horde if Sylvanas had killed Malfurion. Takers?
The writers want us to buy this narrative that Sylvanas somehow thought that invading Darnassus and killing Malfurion was going to cause the entirety of the Alliance to surrender, and then to cap it off, doesn't actually bother finishing off Malfurion when she has the chance to - in what really only reads as a magnificent set of plot armor. A lot of people are having a tough time swallowing the idea that this character who has been portrayed for 15 years as a cunning ranger general could be so stupid so many times in so short a time span, and it really feels like the devs decided "We want Horde vs Alliance for this expansion" and the writers couldn't find a way to make it fit, so they just made Sylvanas a psychopath to railroad that storyline forward.
2. Making a comparison to historic razings of medieval cities isn't practical here. Coming from someone who has extensively studied both the dark ages circa 500ad and the high medieval era in the 1200s - Azeroth is not based on the morals of those periods. Time and time again the writers at Blizzard have shown that medieval Azeroth is not based on the culture and morals of medieval Europe. Beyond the fact that it has swords, horses and kings, Azeroth is drastically more modern than our real world history, and is based on more modern values that the players are meant to identify with, so saying "Burning Teldrassil is fitting because people burned cities in medieval Europe" doesn't quite fit (they also didn't burn them the way Sylvanas did or for the reasons she did, if a city was burned, it was looted bare first and most the people slain were put to the sword during the invasion).
3. The overall "was Sylvanas always this bad" debate is way too long to have on a RUclips comment, but yes, the invasion of Gilneas is one of the better arguments suggesting Sylvanas has done this before which is harder to defend. However, with Gilneas it was presented to us as an invasion ordered by Garrosh, in which she used biological weapons to break up an entrenched resistance on the doorstep of her own territory. The moral greyness in that example came from the fact that she used sinister means to win a battle for the Horde but did so in a way that won the battle swiftly with minimum Horde casualties compared to if she had not used that weapon (Hiroshima?) and that's the Sylvanas we know and love. The burning of Teldrassil in contrast was an invasion of the Alliance at the time when the two factions were not at war as evidenced both by the novel Before the Storm and by her own questline dialogue, but was also executed against an enemy that by that point had been broken and was not able to put up resistance any longer. Context matters, and the difference between dropping a bomb on an entrenched enemy position vs dropping a bomb on unarmed civilians as they flee is the difference between Teldrassil and Gilneas.
4. Character development is good in any story, and this kind of kicks the "Sylvanas was always this evil" argument in the teeth even if you still stand by it, because her having done 'evil' things in Cataclysm doesn't mean the character couldn't have grown into more than that in BFA if the writers had bothered. In literature, an anti-hero is either a protagonist or a character who supports the protagonists despite having morally questionable traits or means of achieving those objectives. Popular characters of this archtype include "The Hound" from HBO's Game of Thrones, Severus Snape from Harry Potter or Magneto in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and what these characters have in common is that while they outwardly appear callous, inwardly they have more character depth than the scarred facade they show us, and typically have our protagonists' best interests at heart.
The Broken Shores opening really teases a Sylvanas redemption arc whether you already thought she was evil prior to that point or not - I mean she summons angels (figuratively) to fly down and save the Horde after which she is named Warchief in a prophetic cinematic where Vol'jin tells her it's time to 'step out of the shadow' and lead the Horde to salvation. If that doesn't read as a prelude to "and now we finally get the Sylvanas we've been waiting for" then I don't know what does. And as amazingly as the opening of Legion teases that story arc, the opening of BFA utterly crushes it. Instead of giving us a multi-faceted character who inwardly cares about the Horde and understands the moral gravity of her decisions despite portraying herself as indifferent towards them - we get yet another mindless villain who cackles and grins while slaughtering everything for no real reason that the story's audience can identify. WoW is already full of characters who feel more like tropes than people, destroying one of the lore's only morally complex characters for this is just a waste of potential. If that disappoints you as a fan then you're 100% justified in feeling that.
(Applauds) I enjoyed this comment a lot! An addition to point #3 is that the language about being an enemy of "life and hope" is quite recent; as far as I can tell, it first appears with her "I must kill that hope" line in _Before the Storm._ Evil or not, Sylvanas is saying and doing things that she didn't say or do before. They are changing the character.
@rpitts1986: Absolutely. Thank you!
@jayoungr: Precisely, it's the little things. The "enemy of life" theme she's suddenly settled on, the mood swing change of plans, the smirking and taunting the dieing Night Elf. Blizzard went well out of their way to show that she's not just willing to do terrible things to win, but that she's actively enjoying it, and that's never how she was portrayed in the past. It feels like the writers are trying to set us up to hate her so we're more accomodating to replacing her with Saurfang and/or killing her in some raid.
Completely disagree with your assessment of morally grey. I can see why Sylvanas making the choice to burn the tree seems out of character to people--- it seemed like an emotionally choice, and Sylvanas is known for being cold. If they didn't want her choice to seem emotional they should have made it more clear that the reason she burned the tree was to achieve her objective-- break the Night Elves' spirit-- and not because she was triggered by the night elf general.
That's the english version of it, in spanish is clear she does it because she realizes killing them won't break their spirit, as Delaryn implies.
And she doesn't seem as butthurt as she seems in english, so I'm pretty sure the initial goal of blizzard was to make it obvious, it just didn't happen.
How can it possibly be interpreted as a spur of the moment choice? She brought the catapults along for a reason. It's not like she had the cutscene with the night elf general, THEN gave the order to build the catapults, THEN burned the tree down.
EntitySteel Those catapults are standard Horde siege equipment, and catapults in general can be used for a variety of purposes ... you don't have to launch firebombs with them, and they would have been particularly effective with plain spiked ball against the n'elf war-sloops. I'm not going to flat out say it was NOT premeditated ... the option was always there, but in terms of trying to fight a limited action it was definitely counter-productive. The turning point was definitely the n'elf soldier's defiance, bleeding out with multiple arrows piercing her back, still holding to hope. In that moment, Sylvanas knew, she might be able to TAKE Darnassus ... but she wouldn't ever really HOLD it.
unfortunately her objective was to hold teldrassil not burn it because she knew destroying it would unite the alliance thus ruining her plans. It makes absolutely no sense why she would do this. Nathanos' pause makes perfect sense in the cinematic. He KNEW she didnt want to burn it because she specifically forbade the use of plague because it would kill the tree. She wanted the elves to focus on getting it back instead of fighting with anduin
Brilliant episode! Haven't been this excited for a coming expansion in years.
You guys are fantastic, and amazing people. Your content is brilliant and my wife and I look forward to your new vids every week!
I find it seriously funny so many Horde players act as if Sylvanas, and the Forsaken as a whole, haven't been into mass genocide, even of innocents, in the past.
Most horde players are pissed because Sylvanas usually has some sort of plan and isnt just a fucking moron throwing a temper tantrum
People are upset because she leads the horde and her actions now reflects on all of them, while they were never given a reason to accept her as warchief.
I was, and still, upset that Vol'jin made her warchief. Sure, the lore explains it as "the Loa told him so", but it still doesn't feel right. See, the Forsaken were sort of outcasts even among the horde. A warchief should represent one of the core races of the horde - orcs, trolls and tauren. Any other warchief of the horde made sense lore-wise. Thrall as a savior, Garrosh after leading a successful campaign in Northrend and Vol'jin for his part in Garrosh's downfall. But what did Sylvanas actually do to deserve this position? Sounding the retreat on the broken shore? It's too lacking to justify it, especially considering the history of conflicts of moral between the horde and the forsaken.
because they heavent?
Wait the loa told him so? Isn't the death loa pissed off and wants Sylvanus in his realm?
DurhamDave SBG Yes. He clearly say it the cinematic before he dies that the Loa whispered her name for warchief. That is the only reason we get in game anyway.
Do you have any damn idea how outstanding and well put analysis that was ? Goddamn this was the 1st ever video of yours i ever watched and you just won me. cant hit the sub twice but you deserve it and a hell lot.
WoW Netflix series? Um...excuse me, I need new pants.
Been waiting on this 😊
turned on those notifications just for this.
Thank you Taliesin and Evitel for this lovely video , it made me cry again. love you guys :)
Love your vids but i dont agree with this assessment of Sylvanas at all. To me it just seems something she did in the heat of the moment because she got pissy at what the belf commander was saying. I always thought of her as cold and calculating. Also with regards to comparing this to the Gilneas battle, she did not do anything impulsively and it seemed more like she had planned on using the plague methods from the start to lower casualties.
Most of the youtubers ive been watching disagree with you on this (the opinions on the cinematic) and most people i know think the same thing. Anyways each to their own opinions but i get the feeling that your in the minority on this one.
Try looking at it as her plan was to burn the tree from the start and the capturing part was the plan the rest of the horde there thought was the plan
She wanted to crush the hope of the alliance and she didn’t get the point across when the night elf said “you cannot destroy hope while she looked at the tree”
Savanna’s Noticed this and said pretty much “can’t I” so she burnt down the tree. She got her reaction she wanted from the night elf’s and to all the alliance on Azeroth.
Exactly. It's difficult for me to believe that this isn't obvious to most people, but aparently they still think she did it "on a whim".
Why would she have fire-launching catapults if she hadn't planned on using them beforehand? Were they magicked into existence the moment she gave the command to burn the tree?
guess u havent seen bellulars new vid, he shows a tweet by blizz they say "a chance enounter causes her to make a decision" ye that doesnt seem planed at all
Personally, I still believe this outcome was boring, uninspired and unfortunately creates a clear good/bad side in the current war (and I'm not even gonna talk about that definition of "morally grey"), and as a patreon and someone who usually loves your content and the fun you poke at some of the overreactions, this video just felt straight condescending to me.
Man I'm glad for explanation videos like these. I always miss the significance of simple actions like Saurfang tapping both his son's chest as well as Zappy's. Haven't read the books either so a short explanation or past events is nice.
Here's the thing, for me at least. I like the horde, both the honourable orcs and the monstrous forsaken. I like fighting the alliance in pitched battle and I enjoy destroying their homes. What I don't like is that whenever we start fighting the alliance, the horde immediately starts cannibalizing itself because blizzard can't have a war where both sides have their reasons or justifications. I don't want to lose the darker aspects of the horde so that the alliance can remain untarnished and pure. I don't want to continually lose our characters only to never have them replaced. I don't want to work for alliance characters in one expansion only to try to kill them in the next. This talk of the horde redefining itself? That was what supposedly Mists was about, "the horde is family" but apparently not. Because then they killed off Vol'Jin, either for parity with Varian's heroic death or so they could come up with a dumb reason to put Sylvanas on the throne so they could either justify a faction war while keeping Anduin innocent or so they could turn her into a raid boss because they know they're running out of villains. Vol'Jin could have united the two sides of the horde, instead he was used as the catalyst for what will undoubtedly lead to the destruction of one or the other.
Not to mention that the only part of the alliance I actually like, the night elves, get turned into helpless pathetic damsels so that a. the horde can have another "oh no we've crossed the line again" crisis and b. so Anduin and the alliance will look like heroes for avenging the poor, weak helpless elves. But don't worry, we'll have plenty of time interacting with a single night elf character as the rest of the alliance questing is entirely focused on humans, humans and more humans.
Vol'jin's reasons to put her on the throne will be questioned ingame afaik. this piece of story doesnt fit here until further explanations or Blizz pulls off some shit again and declares Loa Bwonsamdi a total dumbshell.
From what I've heard, (potential spoilers) he says he might have "misheard" the spirits. But to me that's the same dumb shit they did with Thrall making Garrosh war chief even though everyone told him it was a terrible idea.
tsktsk Blizzard and their story team: a mess for years. :p IF he did not "misheard spirits": who would have been Warchief otherwise ?
LAST
ha, no one can comment now!
Pussy boi
I came back to watch this video because I remembered Evitel talking about failing to save the Nightsaber venders in Darnassus.
I play Elite Dangerous, and right now, we're staring down insurmountable odds. We probably aren't going to be able to save everyone. And Evitel's experience has touched me since I heard it back when this video first came out. And I keep thinking about it, when I think of all the burning space stations, and all the people likely to die from the coming Thargoid Invasion.
It is so refreshing to actually hear intelligent discussion about WoW lore instead of negative reactionary content from other WoW content creators. Thanks to both of you for the effort you put into your content, it is very much appreciated. I sadly had to skip Evitel's section because I don't want to know about the novellas until I get my own.
I think some negative reactions are intelligent. I also think Tali needs more critical thinking.
"Prophet" Velen, the most useless major character in the game.
Damn you 2!! I got chills too many times just listening to you talk about the old soldier cut scene. Excellent job! #saurfang4warchief
The game Spec Ops the Line made the players do horrible, horrible things and the point was that the only way you are not complicit in any of that is to not play the game. The developers even said that.
The fact is that we will be following Sylvanas and so the only way we can not be complicit in this stupid war is to not play.
Amazingly in a few weeks WoW has basically done the opposite of building hype if you believe in the honour of the horde. I feel ashamed of being in the horde. I don’t want to play.
The horde are straight up the villains now. There is no honour left. Just shame. Sorry guys, Old Soldier just made me upset I don’t feel pumped at all.
Sylvanas doesnt define the horde, you do. I believe in the horde and that it is worth fighting for just like Vol jin did. I for one, wont abandon my people to the rule of Sylvanas.