honestly I was more sad at Gorst's death. He was one of the only true honorable characters in the entire series that got short shrifted by life and so I viewed his death as a bit even sadder. At least Orso was a pig that partied the first half of his life away and enjoyed endless women, money, debauchery etc. But Gorst never did get what he wanted. He had unrequited love to Finree. I think Gorst is one of the true tragic heroes of this entire First Law universe and it was very sad to see his demise like that, all for a pointless 'escape' that never even happened. He had a much sadder total arc than Orso's!
@@etluxaeterna A big tragedy of the character is that he never knew he was the better swordsman than Jezal (with Bayaz cheating on Jezal's behalf in the tournament final). His life would have been so different.
My sincere thanks for this therapy session, my friend! I have no idea how Abercrombie could possibly top this, but The Wisdom of Crowds is the conclusion I was hoping for and much, much more. It's always a pleasure to talk about great fantasy with you, Mike!
While I feel it was a very logical conclusion to this trilogy, I still feel like a lot was left on the cutting room floor. The middle just didn't pace like a typical First Law book, and the entire Judge arc felt like filler to me. And the grand reveal (Glockta) was almost entirely predictable.
@@steelpenpirate I can see your point about Glotka but I do not think anything is wrong with a certain amount of predictably. It probably should be more properly labeled as "plot consistency" really instead of the perjorative "predictable". For instance, I saw through Rikke's gambit when she had her first falling out. But the payoff was very rewarding! It is better than subversion of one's expectations for the shock value to the audience so the payoff seems nonsensical and forced because the setup was done poorly and had some facts to come out of left field that was inconsistent to everything shown so far (*cough* Netflix's "Clickbait" *cough*)
@@luckyleo25 first of all I do agree, but I do also feel like Pike repeated the “burn it all down” line from Glokta a couple to many times though. That kinda thing is a difficult balance to strike I suppose.
@@ducky36F I am sure it is IF you want to achieve consistency in both plot and character motivations. I *LOVE* a good plot twist as much as the next person but I **HATE** this modern trend in storytelling from horrible writers who want to throw twists in for the sake of twists and "shock" the audience with the "unexpected". Especially when it's unexpected because it is nonsensical and inconsistent. It is lazy and dishonest - because they then expect the audience to make sense out of the nonsensical (and a lot of people will do this). So they, the storytellers, do not have to make sense. Fortunately Joe Abercrombie is *NOT* a horrible writer. He is a master storyteller on par with Gaiman, Brust, Butcher and King. He knows his craft well and he is excellent at what he does!
I also loved that Glokta indicated that he and King Jezel worked together, became somewhat friendly or an unexpected alliance. I think he mentioned that he and Jezael did their best to work around Bayaz when he was away. Happy they both had someone somewhat peers and that they could work with.
That end actually made me want one less. It jarred me so much, with the apocalyptic nature of the vision, using potentially over-industrializing and climate changing imagery, that it spooked me and if true would bring in exactly the kinds of things I flee from when reading fantasy.
@@windup13ird60 Mixed feelings here. I can't imagine that Abercrombie would go the way of Disney, television, popular western culture at large, and inject current issues and identity politics into his world. But then, when you look at some of his writing, some might say he already has. And not just once. My fear is that he'd feel a need to "finish" his universe with some grand finale that wraps it all into a neat little package, like say, "Revenge of the Sith (done horribly BTW)." The First Law world doesn't need an ending unless Abercrombie truly had no original ideas and was no longer emotionally invested in it.
I loved this latest trilogy and with an ending like that with The vision of Rikka's long eye, there is NO CHANCE this series is done. I cannot wait for what's to come.
i loved vick and Gorst fighting side by side. AND just before- when vick notices someone following her ( and its gorst) and she attacks him and he's the fastest hardest hitting man she's ever seen!
Funny that both trilogies ended with a Glokta (Savine is a Glokta, fuck the Brocks) as the true leader of the realm behind the scenes. Lovely circular narrative.
I can't watch this yet, but I'm very excited to catch up and hear all the great things you two have to say! It's always exciting to see you and Philip in a thumbnail!
Such a shame about Orso man, seriously had me contemplating his story for days. He was the one truly good first law character, and maybe west too but definitely Orso. His death was so sad😭. “Young lion, how’s your leg” gotta admit he died how he lived. Fuck Leo Dan Brock. And as a certain character once told shivers “mercy and cowardice are the same”.
I positively loved that line. Orso reminding the scuzz Leo that he'd forever be a cripple as his last words. Just an opinion though, I think Gorst and Dogman deserve "good" nods. There are prolly a few others through the entire series also.
@@andyappleton3353 Defintely Gorst and Dogmans deaths were honorable. Gloktas murder of Jezal disgusted me. Here is proof Glokta killed Jezal to place his “daughter” on the throne. “The plan all along was to place you on the throne” thus he murdered Jezal, caused the great change etc. FUCK THE GLOKTAS AND BROCKS
Done with it now. "How's your leg" was the funniest line in the series. Within the next generation Bayaz will be right back to running the Union, and I almost admire him. He's like Kallor from Malazan, he just doesn't quit. This book absolutely is based off of the French Revolution, it's doing the Reign of Terror. Judge = Robespierre.
The march on the capital with the peoples army have people taken right out of the real peoples army, or red army, of China. The figurehead guy and some others. They even have some of the same slogans
Late to the party, but thanks for being the only place on RUclips to unwind after reading this amazing end to the First Law. Thanks Mike and Phillip as always.
lmao facts the chapter where he and sevine were arguing in the closed counsel and he was like "oh so IM the villan now??" I can see why it's Joe's favourite charecter he's so horrid
Mike I’ve been watching your videos all throughout my reading of the First Law series and 100% felt the emotional aspect of seeing the series come to a head. I really loved these characters, especially Orso, not especially Leo, and am just so glad I got to go on this 9.5 book journey through this world. Can’t wait for when Joe decides to return to the world of the First Law but I’ll still eagerly be anticipating whatever he decides to write next (The Devils).
As someone who has seen sort of a mild (by comparison) revolution in Ukraine 2014, I can say there are so many parallels in the books to how it all went on, even though the book is obviously based on French Revolution. I mean the chaos, placing ideology over actual needs (what should the Court of People be called, what to do with monuments and so on instead of securing crops and reparing for winter) , everybody getting absorbed by the movement and so on. We didn't have it nearly as bad as people of Adua but I couldn't help comparing the book to my personal reality 7-8 years ago
The middle book is my favourite in all three of Abercrombie’s trilogies actually. Before they are Hanged, A Trouble with Peace and Half the World are all great books imo 😂
I agree Mike a lot of the smaller characters' arcs felt unsatisfying. Victarine, Gunner, etc. In general the book was slightly disappointing to me but still as an Abercrombie book it's better than almost any other fantasy out there. BUT I just expected a bit more of a powerful OOMPH at the end and I really didn't get one besides maybe the Orso arc. After this huge fire and brimstone rebellion thing, things kind of went out in a whimper for me. It almost felt like an ending to a book 3 out of 4 and I think this trilogy might've needed one more book to fully wrap it up. The only way my opinion will change is if there is another trilogy that's set 15 years later or whatever that comes in the near future just like this one did over the original trilogy
Agreed. I had a similar feeling, I was also a bit surprised how little ruckus there was when Yoru finally met his match, I kinda expected something bigger. Plus, I (and probably many others) have seen certain reveals coming from miles away... Glokta was obviously the Weaver, and Ishri wasn't a surprise either. Still, I like the book, but the ending was a bit disappointing, which bumps it down a peg in my First Law ranking.
@@Grimscribe732 I realize I'm a bit late, but I don't think being able to predict what is happening and what'll happen is necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes it can be attributed to not being competent enough as a writer, but most of the time is because the writer did a good job at setting things up. I also suspected Glokta was the Weaver (I was almost sure of it when he put Pike in charge and in the reveal at the end of TTWP), but again, I don't think it detracts from the story. We're able to predict this because we know how Glokta is, we know what he thinks of Bayaz, we know he thinks there could be something better yet needs to be ruthless to achieve it. And it's not like he planned it to perfection, he did not see Savine and Leo rebelling, he wasn't that sure that Vick was going to be loyal to Orso in the end, he wasn't expecting Valint and Balk to be empty, etc. In my opinion at least, Joe pulled it off as it needed to be, and I was completely satisfied with the story. Some things I would've liked to see more of are Monza and Jappo. However, realistically the best you can do when there's a civil war somewhere is to let it happen because meddling will almost certainly not go well for you. So it was natural to not see them in TWOC until the very end with Monza. I would've liked to see more of Rikke in The Union, but what was there is completely fine. So in the end, TWOC was as good as a book can be for me and a good conclusion to the Age of Madness.
Regarding Calder's unknown son, who ended up with Bayaz, there was small passage in The Heroes that said something like "he is so devoted to Seff that he almost swore off of other women". This isn't the correct quote, but the word almost was definitely key in the original sentence as well. So, I think it is a safe bet that Bayaz has a potential heir to the north at his side.
I just finished it last night. So gutted about Orso, was hoping he might get away even if he couldn't keep the throne. Abercrombie truly is the master of characters.
Orso was great, he's death broke my heart. But did they just think Bayaz was going to go away after killing sulfur, didn't look like they had any plans to deal with him. And Clover Jonas clover LOL. The book was just amazing Abercrombie never disappoints.
23:50 NGL, the standalone I'd most like to see would be the account of Shivers' adventures. The ones we don't hear about that happen between each book he appears in. I think that would make a cracking read. :)
I didn't want to read anything else for a while after finishing this.. In fact I just ended up re-reading Orso's final chapter for the pain... 😂 I loved that they closed the curtains on Orso with Leo left feeling as the real loser. Another scary thing is that this only frustrated Bayaz just a little bit but definitely didn't hurt him. The man is already looking into the future.
Abercrombie got to the point of, "Predictably Unpredictable". And I thik he is smart enough to know this and change. I feel like his next book is gonna be a palette cleanser, totally different.
07:50 My reaction to that moment was, 'WHAT!? You've got to be fucking kidding me! Then I had to turn off the book and walk around for a while to calm down! I hated it (and hated Leo too, from that moment on, until the final exchange between him and Sevine) but also couldn't help but applaud Joe for doing it. What a move!
Judge was talking to *Citizen Leo Brock* about her origins and her philosophy -- and it was some of the best monologues in the whole series. In all fairness to Judge though, her talk to Leo of the animalistic nature of human beings (*NOT* what makes us noble and better than animals) was one of the most insightful, chilling and disturbing observations stated in the entire series (in a series that has tons insightful comments by the characters). And the most interesting part was that Leo *agreed* with Judge after she made that speech. And that tells you all need to know about Leo!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy You are very welcome! I am just so happy to have watch this spoiler talk with you and Mike!! I remember that chapter distinctly because it was one of the best moments in the book, in my opinion. It reminded me much of Heath Ledger's Joker speech in "The Dark Knight" about the animalistic base nature of man. Because it concerns itself on not what makes us noble and better than animals, but that animalistic part of each individual that is only self-interested about one's owns (not even one's species) survival! And it explained why she does what she does once she was given the power to run the society -- and why she is so horrible!! But again, Leo agreed with her philosophy and saw it to be true. If one needs proof, reread his rant near the end about the purpose of "progress" and ultimate "goal" of said progress. That was really disturbing and I believe that Judge influenced and impressed him a great deal during that conversation...Savine was not the only "villain" who shaped Leo's "new" perspective of the world. Cannot wait to see what may happen next!
But is Orso really dead ? There is some evidence to suggest things may not have turned out the way we think eg. Vic tells Tallow she in trouble for helping Orso escape ( this is long after Savine's intervention ) and he was hanged by the traditional method ie. falling through a trapdoor. Scope to switch his body out ? I know it's a long shot but I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if Orso appears again ! ps. My rankings for this trilogy is 1. The Trouble with Peace 2. A Little Hatred 3. The Wisdom of Crowds. Overall probably my favourite First Law trilogy.
I feel like this book had many missed opportunities and it's probably one of my least favorite books but it definitely shows why Abercrombie is one of the best writers... LOL I'll copy and paste my reddit post in case you wanna check it out, Mike After having a couple weeks to let the last book digest... I think it's actually great. Yes, it is my least favorite in the trilogy and I think it had many missed opportunities, but it's great. After the first trilogy, I hated Bayaz and I wanted our protagonist to win. The first trilogy tried to make our protagonist get away from Bayaz's rule and become their own people, but Bayaz got the seed and that was a gg. This second trilogy however, we see the great change happen and the protagonist sort of get one up on Bayaz at the end. But now I feel it's sort of swapped where, after what they did to Orso we're like... you know what, go ahead Bayaz; fuck shit up lol It's begging the question, should these people be free of Bayaz or not. In the first trilogy, Bayaz won and some characters were miserable, but there was order and our protagonists survived. In this trilogy, they beat Bayaz (in a way) but these protagonist ( I think at least ) are worse people, they're still miserable and again, they killed my boy Orso off, so fuck em LOL Even Orso as a character stayed the same in this last book with all his quips, whereas everyone was changing. I feel Abercrombie essentially killed him off for this reason. With the great change, what doesn't want to change is eventually killed. This is why I think this last book and trilogy was great, and even this series as a whole. It keeps us switching perspectives. In the first trilogy I wanted the protagonist to be free of Bayaz and be their own people, and after this trilogy, I'm thinking... were they actually just better off with Bayaz? And after that ending (Rikke's vision) I think the third and (final?) trilogy, will be about Bayaz bringing Auez back and bringing back the age of the demons because humans are just not worth protecting or being around in general. I can totally see the series ending in that way lol But uhh.. yeah. I had all these thoughts in my head these past couple days, hopefully I was able to articulate it pretty well since it feels like I had 100 thoughts at once while typing this.
I've been waiting for my dad to finish so we could talk about it... so this was great. Needed the therapy too. I've already read it twice, I enjoyed it much more the second time because I wasn't stuck thinking about my expectations so much. I was wondering the whole time when Ferro would come back and kill Bayaz. But well said door Orso... poor Gorst... Honestly I would still like to see Logan come back... He's just my favorite character. But ya, I'm already counting down the days until the next book comes out no matter what it is. I'm excited to see where this prophecy goes, sounds like a frickin' blood bath! I did read the whole half a king series. It was good, just not as well fleshed out as the first law world. What should i read NEXT!? P.s really appreciate the channel!
Late to comment but my two cents on the revolution aspect: I love how he mixed different types of revolutions that we've seen historically. Not just geographically, but chronologically different. The transitioning away from feudalism marks it a bourgeois or liberal revolution like the French. While at the same time, the economics lead to a proletariat revolution. In theory the bourgeois revolution would lead to an industrial transition which then makes the conditions right for the proletariat revolution. Abercrombie pushes the industrial period forward so the two revolutionary forces of our modern world in a way happen simultaneously. Very fun to read.
I didn’t accept orsos death, not even when the hanging chapter started but about a page into I realized that there was no way and I just get depressed lol. Orso is a great guy and was the most kind one but he went out like a champ.
I have been thinking about Rikke's choice near the end and how some people thought it was out of character for her. I thought about it and I understand those peoples' viewpoints but I think they are missing the bigger picture here: I understand their point of view but I did not think that choice was out of character for Rikke. Spoliers follow... Rikke really wants to be a good leader and she wants to end the constant wars in the North and constant wars between the North and the Union. She stated herself that the North usually comes out on the losing end against the Union and she rather would like for that to not happen again. She has been told time and time again that she needs to hard as a leader -- especially to live up the name of Black Rikke and lead some of the hardest men in the North. So she has Isern whispering in her ear about being a hard leader Not to mention the fact the she really felt bad about betraying Leo, her childhood friend and occasional lover. A man who put his life on the line to save her life. She saw what a bitter and broken wretch he became due to her "treachery" (and it was even worse since she did not know that Leo did not know anything about Sevine's treachery). So in her mind, Orso had to go. For the sake of North and to salve the guilt that she felt over betraying Leo, Orso had to be the "sacrificial lamb" for the hope for a better future. Hmmm.. if one wanted to, one may find a religious allegory about a man too good for a very brutal world. And since this is a brutal world that was more or less shaped by a cambion (a half-human/half-demon) in the Old times -- for this world to have a chance at a better future that good man has to die... ha, ha -- very cute. Anyway it was not like Rikke was completely okay about it -- she was devastated by her decision! (just most of the readers were! 😉). But, on the sunny side, she finally learned her last lesson that Isern was trying to teach her, how to truly have a "heart of stone". Which I take to mean to be true to her own convictions and not to overly worry what others may think -- the mark of a true leader.
yeah it's not out of character at all. It was pretty much her character coming into her own and realizing her full destiny that was clearly spelled out via chekhov's gun long ago and becoming a leader who is capable of making 'hard decisions' like you said.
I just finished the book a couple hrs ago...I feel numb and a profound emptiness. Part in how it ended, and part because it has ended. If I wasn't such a stone hearted northman(or if I was drunk) I may have shed a tear when orso died. When I thought Joe was going to kill him in the beginning I was ready to rage quit.
Orso was amazing. It hurt me to see how it all turned out. Especially since I think it was so out of character to run right to where Leo was. He seemed much more clever than that. New characters. Definitely like The Nail and Issern, and their interactions with Rikke. I also feel like Gorst death was needless. I get it, but it just seemed like a waste of such a beast of a character. The same goes for Sulfur, I think him or Bayaz would have been wise to Sabine's company. All three of those deaths made me say "why would you do that?" Overall, it was well written and a page turner, and it had me excited about the future with cleft lip and the return of Gulstrad (maybe Euz or another random demon of legend). Edit- Calder stated that he loved his wife enough to almost not sleep with others. SO while it may be Steff, it could also be anyone else.
Finally, somebody else brought up the most significant part of RIkke's vision! The part that mentioned the possible return of a very possible mythic figure. And that will be really awesome! Because it may bring about another "technological" shift. Not to mention...someone really went hog wild and broke The First Law... And that is a big deal with an "F"!
Idk all three deaths make sense to me. I sure as hell didn’t see Leo’s betrayal coming, and as far as Orso knew Leo didn’t have such a move in him, plus he was pretty taken away with the fact that he’d survived Judge. Sulfur, so the whole set up is Bayaz underestimating the “ants” and Glokta using that against him, so why would he suspect simple servants as a threat to him? They are beneath his notice. And then I’d imagine Bayaz sent Sulfur in expecting him to be able to take back power in one move, but if he failed then it wouldn’t be Bayaz himself at risk, and we all know Bayaz is the real only important one :P Gorst, yeah it was meaningless, but I think that was the point. Gorst dying for nothing pretty much signals Orso’s papers are stamped to me.
35:04 the child could be scales son with calders wife. scales son would still be part of bethods line and that would be ironic. stour being more like scale and then scales son being more like calder (but i guess you dont really get much information about the other kid besides the fact that hes good with a sword which calder isnt)
Holy crap the pacing of this book was absolutely breakneck. As much as I'd love another first law trilogy (even another set of standalones like the first), I'm actually more intrigued with the new series Joe is playing around with. Again, fantasy. Again, Joe Abercrombie. But more magic. Magic is something I missed from First Law. It was very subtle in the first trilogy and gradually became more and more irrelevant. Plus, I want Joe to have time to marinate over where he's going with first law. Not that he would, but I want to make sure he's not pressured at all.
OH in the end when clover goes to bayaz's library to train that kid- he first comes upon a man with a weathered face chopping wood- i thought for a second it was going to be LOGAN!!!! but then it was just bayaz.... meh
Good book, but god damn Leo, I hate that bastard. Just when I thought he was getting a redemption arc he proved he didn't learn shit except how to be an even bigger dick. The only thing that gives me comfort is when Savine just rolls right over him in the Closed Council meeting and their private talk. It's an appropriate punishment for him. One thing I haven't heard anyone talk about is the Seed. I think Pike found the Seed. When he's in the bank vault with Vick, she hears someone breaking something out of sight. I think that was Pike's men breaking down a brick wall that had the Seed sealed up behind it. So I think Glokta is now in possession of the box with the Seed in it. Maybe, I know this is a theory without much to go on. I'm looking forward to the Hilde revenge plot in whatever comes next. I'm wondering if Bayaz will train her to become a Magi to replace Sulfur. Probably not an Eater though since she's going to return to Adua and she's going to have to blend in without getting caught by other Eaters. That reminds me, so when Judge arrested Savine, they also locked up Zuri. So did Pike have them bind her up just so she didn't mess up their plans? Speaking of Calder, his arc really ties into the message of "you have to make of your heart a stone". Calder failed to do the necessary thing and have Shivers kill his brother, and then Scale screwed everything up and also messed up Stour by turning him into an arrogant monster. If Shivers had killed Scale, Shivers probably never would have ended up executing Calder.
I must have used the f word in various forms at least 25 times in the ranty review I left for this book. 5 star review, of course, the book is freaking brilliant, but it totally left me traumatized and I had to bawl about it. Like you said, it should make Joe laugh and be satisfied because his writing messed me up so much and his mission is fully accomplished. I've been nodding along with what you've both been saying since the beginning of the video, so much agreement and similar feelings and impressions from me. Except maybe the wish to see Bayaz get his comeuppance... I pretty much want the opposite, for him and his new little crew to stomp over everything and everyone who's left standing in Adua.
Leo was an alright guy, with "good guy'" morals thrown in with ambition in the previous books. And extremely stupid and easy to lead. In this book he is pretty much just an grumpy old guy, and Ambercrombie changes him into that in a matter of seconds. The stark contrast of his personality from the previous books feels to extreme. We are talking literally 1 day from "good guy, but stupid hero" type, to "mastermind, grumpy, evil overlord". Thankfully Savine seems to have found her humanity. She had such a incredible story arc and transformation. Her changes feel a lot more natural and well "earned" than Orso. As in, they didn't come as abruptly and she didn't just get "wisdom" from nowhere. There are so many parallells to The Red Army/Peoples Army in China in this. Abercrombie even took the name, as well as having many characters following somewhat the same arc. It of course spirals out from there and takes inspiration from many others things, but the whole movement and taking the capital felt very communistic.
Interesting take, but something about Leo that makes the change all the more stunning and not extreme at all is that he just gained a devious nature and is not a "Mastermind/Overlord" by any stretch of the imagination... He is still extremely stupid and not in control. He is resentful and cruel now, but he never thought further than "Get my son on the throne" and "Be a strong warrior". That alley cat is stupid, entitled and gullible. His motivations in this book was a result of his injuries, jealousy and feelings of inadequacy. He will still depend on Jurand as he did before. He'll resent the help he gets even more now, but he can NOT rule. He will not rule. Savine already made that very clear. He is a product of the people around him. He is also a sad combination of the worst parts of Savine's dads. Say one thing for Sand Dan Glokta, say he is smart. Leo? Noooo
@@fe-real Agree with pretty much everything you wrote. With overlord/mastermind, I mean that he suddenly started to scheme (in the house of the people and the betrayal of Orso) and that he saw himself as a smart schemer and everyone else as dumb. Everything before then was out in the open, direct, except for the rebellion where he was their weakest link. Now he was the strongest link in this "rebellion". Yes, he will not rule and was outplayed. He however started to suddenly use his brain and changed his personality. The book is over many months, but Leo changed the day after he was suppose to hang. There was 0 development into what he became and he pretty much had no more growth after the opening of the book. If it had been layed out gradually, it would have been a fantastic twist and build up. It would have felt earned. The way it was done however, Leo just changed from one book to the next, with less than a week of time, and then didn't really change any more after that. Character wise this last book might have been the weakest Abercrombie has done. Rike, Clover and Sadine are pretty much the ones that were given time to grow and change (when it comes to Clover, it wasn't really a change, but slowly showing the nuances of the personality that was already there). I would probably include Orso on the list as well. Him losing the burden of the crown showed a new side of him. Of course just my opinion of it all. Still a solid 4 out of 5 though
I actually thought it's Glokta might have killed Jezal, as a way of kickstarting his grand scheme to wring the union into chaos and start paving the way for the heir he chose.
During Orsos final chapter I kept dreading, but also kind of hoping Bayaz would arrive in adua. I kept waiting for him to show up in adua any ways near the end, but after Rikke betrayed him and I realized Leo was 100% having him hung I figured Bayaz would cut in and save his ass, even if indirectly. But instead we got the zuri reveal with yoru before hand, and the long eye prophecy. I was alright with that, but I kept thinking he’d show up because I didn’t want Orso to die. I figured he’d show up and kill Leo or something because he fucked up his whole plan he’d later out in the first trilogy. But I was dreading it because I thought he’d kill Savine and Glokta as well. But the way it actually went felt so real and it sucked, but it was absolutely brilliant at the same time.
I sort of predicted Orso's death as soon as I realized that Age of Madness was going to be the french revolution in Adua because Orso is just so much a Louis XVI figure. That maybe why I didn't let myself get really attached to him, even though he is probably the only decent person in the world.
I was a little disappointed that there was no showdown with Bayaz at the end. I spent the last 40% with increasing anxiety of 'where's Bayaz?' that didn't entirely have a payoff though it's clear he (both Bayaz and Abercrombie) are thinking long term and future books. Compared to the showdown I expected the Yoru Sulphur death was underwhelming. Gunner Broad- while his arc was disappointing because in many ways nothing really changed I think it was incredibly realistic. I remember reading Viktor Frankl's book about surviving the Holocaust and he said the Nzis came in three types: tthe legitimate psychos who enjoyed causing misery, the ones who used whatever power they had to do something good for their inmates, and the largest category were those who just got inured to atrocity and did what they had to do. I think Broad falls into that latter category and if he had some large redemption it wouldn't be genuine because he doesn't believe he truly deserves it after all he has done and Judge used that self-doubt. Ranking: A Little Hatred (I loved the depth of social commentary and wisdom within), The Wisdom of Crowds, and then Trouble with Peace (few write big battles better but lacked some depth compared to the other two).
Final comment for me! I feel that going forward, any future first law books will have to be larger in scope. They've foreshadowed steam rail technology so much. Give the present state of affairs another 50 years; steam transport will be widespread. People will be able to move across the circle of the world so quickly. It'll involve a much broader and much faster paced story. Of course, I'm an idiot, so if Lord Grimdark comes up with something else I'm sure it'll be better.
I loved Leo and his actions in this book, all with Savine, Orso, putting his son on the throne etc, as well as all the things you described about him maturing in a grim way. He is broken but I think he salvaged a lot of things in the end, even though it may not feel that way. I didn't like Orso, I think he was too good of a character, the kind of good that I dislike when I come across in real life (it's difficult to describe the feeling). I absolutely adored all of the scenes with Savine and the babies, the part about the little one biting her breast while breastfeeding was very relatable to my wife who is going through the very same things right now! I also love how the democratic experiment failed so miserably with the monarchy reinstated very swiftly. So many things that I loved in this series, the inventions, the investments, the change in society with technology. I recently read Hilaire Belloc's "The Servile State" that reminded me a lot of what "the little people" were going through. Brilliant trilogy and I agree with Philip, I think this is my favourite trilogy, too. ...sorry for the wall of text!
Did Orso really die? I felt Abercrombie left the door open a crack with the simpler hanging machine, probably designed by the great machinist Curnsbick, and the scene ends with Orso’s hanging left to our imagination.
In the Clover PoV chapter "The Moment", Bayaz says to Clover that he's sure "the lad won't make the same mistakes as his half-brother", or something to that effect. So it's Calder's son, without a doubt. Also, it's funny that just like Bethod before him, Calder sired two sons from two women with the younger of the two going on to fulfill his legacy. Abercrombie and his cyclic storytelling is very subtle, but very good.
Nice talk guys, even though I dont agree with Orso and I dont think Rikke would do what she did. Bit too much of twists and firstplain shocks close to the end of book.
And also I think Glokta has Jezal killed in the first book. Since he told Savine “the plan was to put your child on the throne” I think maybe Glokta told Leo to kill Lord Marshall forest and take over the agriont. I really dislike Glokta after this ending.
Why is NOBODY mentioning that the "bald weaver's" actions in Rikke's vision! Spoilers: Someone is coming back and it looks like a stone surrounded by a circle of runes that is going to bring that person back. My money is that the bald weaver is going to do the ultimate dick move and break *The First Law* and bring back a certain legendary cambion from the Old Time... If I am right, we are going to be in for some fun times...
Could you expand on this? Maybe I’ll have to reread the chapter to refresh my mind. But I thought Bayez was the bald weaver then it went to the what appeared to be a creature waking or trying to break out. Have we been given any clues or information as to what that was, other than what we got in the last chapter? Was the blonde girl Hilde, Orso’s friend?
@@hellobill5329 Yes, the blonde girl was Orso's friend, Hildi. In "Curse and Blessings" page 509 regarding Rikke's vision. Read the part about where she saw a burning stone in a circle of runes in the eye of the bald weaver. (Sounds like the Seed, does it not?) And in the circle of runes, she saw a black door. And she saw a figure made of blinding light and the figure said in a thunderous voice, "I am returned." Go back to the The First Law trilogy (or go The Third Law wIki) to see who that could possibly be... If it is who I think it is: 1. WOW!!! That is the ULTIMATE dick move! But I believe that it is in the potential of the bald weaver in his arrogance to try to pull this dick move! 2. Things are going to get very interesting...
Still watching but want to add my two cents. Maybe one of the weaker Abercrombie books but with such a strong finish. I think glokta had king jezal killed.
@@Kexkon It’s 100% Glokta, Jezal had to die in order to start the great change, nobody had any respect for Orso, Glokta definitely did it my friend. “The plan was to put your child on the throne” says it all, what would he do ask Jezal nicely to step down😂😂
Gorst's death pailed in significance to Orso's. Absolutely gutted. Leaves me with an empty feeling inside. By far the best character of this trilogy.
Completely agree
honestly I was more sad at Gorst's death. He was one of the only true honorable characters in the entire series that got short shrifted by life and so I viewed his death as a bit even sadder. At least Orso was a pig that partied the first half of his life away and enjoyed endless women, money, debauchery etc. But Gorst never did get what he wanted. He had unrequited love to Finree. I think Gorst is one of the true tragic heroes of this entire First Law universe and it was very sad to see his demise like that, all for a pointless 'escape' that never even happened. He had a much sadder total arc than Orso's!
@@etluxaeterna A big tragedy of the character is that he never knew he was the better swordsman than Jezal (with Bayaz cheating on Jezal's behalf in the tournament final). His life would have been so different.
@@allansko2668 oh man. you're so right. Bayaz is a true scumbag. I hate that it ended without Bayaz getting his just dues
@@etluxaeterna We live in hope, my friend. We live in hope.
My sincere thanks for this therapy session, my friend! I have no idea how Abercrombie could possibly top this, but The Wisdom of Crowds is the conclusion I was hoping for and much, much more. It's always a pleasure to talk about great fantasy with you, Mike!
This whole trilogy was nuts!
While I feel it was a very logical conclusion to this trilogy, I still feel like a lot was left on the cutting room floor. The middle just didn't pace like a typical First Law book, and the entire Judge arc felt like filler to me. And the grand reveal (Glockta) was almost entirely predictable.
@@steelpenpirate I can see your point about Glotka but I do not think anything is wrong with a certain amount of predictably. It probably should be more properly labeled as "plot consistency" really instead of the perjorative "predictable". For instance, I saw through Rikke's gambit when she had her first falling out. But the payoff was very rewarding!
It is better than subversion of one's expectations for the shock value to the audience so the payoff seems nonsensical and forced because the setup was done poorly and had some facts to come out of left field that was inconsistent to everything shown so far (*cough* Netflix's "Clickbait" *cough*)
@@luckyleo25 first of all I do agree, but I do also feel like Pike repeated the “burn it all down” line from Glokta a couple to many times though.
That kinda thing is a difficult balance to strike I suppose.
@@ducky36F I am sure it is IF you want to achieve consistency in both plot and character motivations.
I *LOVE* a good plot twist as much as the next person but I **HATE** this modern trend in storytelling from horrible writers who want to throw twists in for the sake of twists and "shock" the audience with the "unexpected".
Especially when it's unexpected because it is nonsensical and inconsistent. It is lazy and dishonest - because they then expect the audience to make sense out of the nonsensical (and a lot of people will do this). So they, the storytellers, do not have to make sense.
Fortunately Joe Abercrombie is *NOT* a horrible writer. He is a master storyteller on par with Gaiman, Brust, Butcher and King. He knows his craft well and he is excellent at what he does!
The toughest part for me too, betrayal of Orso. Can't get over it even 5 days later. Probably will continue feeling that way.
Yeah I’m still processing what happened to Orso and I finished the book about a week ago too
"How's your leg?" LOL---GENIUS!
I also loved that Glokta indicated that he and King Jezel worked together, became somewhat friendly or an unexpected alliance. I think he mentioned that he and Jezael did their best to work around Bayaz when he was away. Happy they both had someone somewhat peers and that they could work with.
It was implied they would work together at the end of the 3rd book so it wasn't that much of a surprise
The long eye viewing at the end makes me ache for a new trilogy.
Seems like we can't be done with the First Law world without definitive closure on Bayaz and Logen.
That end actually made me want one less. It jarred me so much, with the apocalyptic nature of the vision, using potentially over-industrializing and climate changing imagery, that it spooked me and if true would bring in exactly the kinds of things I flee from when reading fantasy.
@@windup13ird60 Mixed feelings here. I can't imagine that Abercrombie would go the way of Disney, television, popular western culture at large, and inject current issues and identity politics into his world. But then, when you look at some of his writing, some might say he already has. And not just once. My fear is that he'd feel a need to "finish" his universe with some grand finale that wraps it all into a neat little package, like say, "Revenge of the Sith (done horribly BTW)." The First Law world doesn't need an ending unless Abercrombie truly had no original ideas and was no longer emotionally invested in it.
The conversation between Rikke and Bayaz is maybe my favorite scene or certainly one of them. Truly epic
Even better on the audiobook. Something about Rikke's voice makes me smile.
@@Sidharthavicious agreed! Love Pacey’s work with both their voices, especially Rikke.
I loved this latest trilogy and with an ending like that with The vision of Rikka's long eye, there is NO CHANCE this series is done. I cannot wait for what's to come.
i loved vick and Gorst fighting side by side. AND just before- when vick notices someone following her ( and its gorst) and she attacks him and he's the fastest hardest hitting man she's ever seen!
Funny that both trilogies ended with a Glokta (Savine is a Glokta, fuck the Brocks) as the true leader of the realm behind the scenes. Lovely circular narrative.
She's sort of luthar doe
My god. I’ve never been more gutted than with Orso. What a beautiful, hilarious and courageous character.
I can't watch this yet, but I'm very excited to catch up and hear all the great things you two have to say! It's always exciting to see you and Philip in a thumbnail!
Such a shame about Orso man, seriously had me contemplating his story for days. He was the one truly good first law character, and maybe west too but definitely Orso. His death was so sad😭. “Young lion, how’s your leg” gotta admit he died how he lived. Fuck Leo Dan Brock. And as a certain character once told shivers “mercy and cowardice are the same”.
I positively loved that line. Orso reminding the scuzz Leo that he'd forever be a cripple as his last words. Just an opinion though, I think Gorst and Dogman deserve "good" nods. There are prolly a few others through the entire series also.
@@andyappleton3353 Defintely Gorst and Dogmans deaths were honorable. Gloktas murder of Jezal disgusted me. Here is proof Glokta killed Jezal to place his “daughter” on the throne. “The plan all along was to place you on the throne” thus he murdered Jezal, caused the great change etc. FUCK THE GLOKTAS AND BROCKS
Done with it now. "How's your leg" was the funniest line in the series. Within the next generation Bayaz will be right back to running the Union, and I almost admire him. He's like Kallor from Malazan, he just doesn't quit.
This book absolutely is based off of the French Revolution, it's doing the Reign of Terror. Judge = Robespierre.
The march on the capital with the peoples army have people taken right out of the real peoples army, or red army, of China. The figurehead guy and some others. They even have some of the same slogans
As a novice history nerd I really liked the historical parallels in this book.
The final part with hildi, orso and tunny was so sad, but in a beautiful way
i loved how much the word " quim" was used! ive never heard of it in my life before this book
Loki called Black Widow that in The Avengers.
I didn't realize how much I needed this "detox" - I had no one to talk to about this series, so thanks guys!
Tell your mother I always held her in high esteem. Famous last words ✊😄 He was sooooo good in The Heroes!
Late to the party, but thanks for being the only place on RUclips to unwind after reading this amazing end to the First Law. Thanks Mike and Phillip as always.
My 2 favorite booktubers talking about my 3rd favorite series of all time makes me happy.
Glad to oblige, Scot!
I hate Leo almost as much as Bayaz now 😂
lmao facts the chapter where he and sevine were arguing in the closed counsel and he was like "oh so IM the villan now??"
I can see why it's Joe's favourite charecter he's so horrid
Leo is way worse. He’s basically a child the entire series… constantly throwing a fit
Mike I’ve been watching your videos all throughout my reading of the First Law series and 100% felt the emotional aspect of seeing the series come to a head. I really loved these characters, especially Orso, not especially Leo, and am just so glad I got to go on this 9.5 book journey through this world. Can’t wait for when Joe decides to return to the world of the First Law but I’ll still eagerly be anticipating whatever he decides to write next (The Devils).
As someone who has seen sort of a mild (by comparison) revolution in Ukraine 2014, I can say there are so many parallels in the books to how it all went on, even though the book is obviously based on French Revolution. I mean the chaos, placing ideology over actual needs (what should the Court of People be called, what to do with monuments and so on instead of securing crops and reparing for winter) , everybody getting absorbed by the movement and so on. We didn't have it nearly as bad as people of Adua but I couldn't help comparing the book to my personal reality 7-8 years ago
The middle book is my favourite in all three of Abercrombie’s trilogies actually. Before they are Hanged, A Trouble with Peace and Half the World are all great books imo 😂
100% of course can’t forget to mention The Heroes, it’s definitely between that and Best Served Cold for me for favourite first law book
This whole series was wonderful... in an evil and twisted way. It is what Abercrombie does best.
Absolutely.
4:42 i dont believe anything judge says about her past to anyone, she changes the story every time she tells a new person.
She’s like the joker
Yesss! It's here! Been eagerly anticipating this one.
"If you got your foot on your enemy's throat, you gotta put it down!"
Words to live by in the Circle of the World!!! 👍🏾👍🏾👍🏾👍🏾
Good words
I agree Mike a lot of the smaller characters' arcs felt unsatisfying. Victarine, Gunner, etc. In general the book was slightly disappointing to me but still as an Abercrombie book it's better than almost any other fantasy out there. BUT I just expected a bit more of a powerful OOMPH at the end and I really didn't get one besides maybe the Orso arc. After this huge fire and brimstone rebellion thing, things kind of went out in a whimper for me. It almost felt like an ending to a book 3 out of 4 and I think this trilogy might've needed one more book to fully wrap it up. The only way my opinion will change is if there is another trilogy that's set 15 years later or whatever that comes in the near future just like this one did over the original trilogy
Agreed. I had a similar feeling, I was also a bit surprised how little ruckus there was when Yoru finally met his match, I kinda expected something bigger. Plus, I (and probably many others) have seen certain reveals coming from miles away... Glokta was obviously the Weaver, and Ishri wasn't a surprise either. Still, I like the book, but the ending was a bit disappointing, which bumps it down a peg in my First Law ranking.
@@Grimscribe732 I realize I'm a bit late, but I don't think being able to predict what is happening and what'll happen is necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes it can be attributed to not being competent enough as a writer, but most of the time is because the writer did a good job at setting things up. I also suspected Glokta was the Weaver (I was almost sure of it when he put Pike in charge and in the reveal at the end of TTWP), but again, I don't think it detracts from the story.
We're able to predict this because we know how Glokta is, we know what he thinks of Bayaz, we know he thinks there could be something better yet needs to be ruthless to achieve it. And it's not like he planned it to perfection, he did not see Savine and Leo rebelling, he wasn't that sure that Vick was going to be loyal to Orso in the end, he wasn't expecting Valint and Balk to be empty, etc. In my opinion at least, Joe pulled it off as it needed to be, and I was completely satisfied with the story.
Some things I would've liked to see more of are Monza and Jappo. However, realistically the best you can do when there's a civil war somewhere is to let it happen because meddling will almost certainly not go well for you. So it was natural to not see them in TWOC until the very end with Monza. I would've liked to see more of Rikke in The Union, but what was there is completely fine. So in the end, TWOC was as good as a book can be for me and a good conclusion to the Age of Madness.
Regarding Calder's unknown son, who ended up with Bayaz, there was small passage in The Heroes that said something like "he is so devoted to Seff that he almost swore off of other women". This isn't the correct quote, but the word almost was definitely key in the original sentence as well. So, I think it is a safe bet that Bayaz has a potential heir to the north at his side.
I'm with Dr Fantasy with my ranking. My favourite is definitely Savine and the Wisdom of Crowds is her book.
yep
I’ve been looking forward to this!
I just finished it last night. So gutted about Orso, was hoping he might get away even if he couldn't keep the throne. Abercrombie truly is the master of characters.
Just finished the book, I really appreaciate this discussion
Ive been thinking on re reading the first trilogy
Orso was great, he's death broke my heart. But did they just think Bayaz was going to go away after killing sulfur, didn't look like they had any plans to deal with him.
And Clover Jonas clover LOL.
The book was just amazing Abercrombie never disappoints.
💯
23:50 NGL, the standalone I'd most like to see would be the account of Shivers' adventures. The ones we don't hear about that happen between each book he appears in. I think that would make a cracking read. :)
I didn't want to read anything else for a while after finishing this.. In fact I just ended up re-reading Orso's final chapter for the pain... 😂 I loved that they closed the curtains on Orso with Leo left feeling as the real loser. Another scary thing is that this only frustrated Bayaz just a little bit but definitely didn't hurt him. The man is already looking into the future.
Abercrombie got to the point of, "Predictably Unpredictable". And I thik he is smart enough to know this and change.
I feel like his next book is gonna be a palette cleanser, totally different.
I want more Shenkt.
the story would've ended in 1 book if he was here lol. he would just easily slaughter everyone
Shenkt/Vitari romantic comedy would be nice.
07:50 My reaction to that moment was, 'WHAT!? You've got to be fucking kidding me! Then I had to turn off the book and walk around for a while to calm down! I hated it (and hated Leo too, from that moment on, until the final exchange between him and Sevine) but also couldn't help but applaud Joe for doing it. What a move!
Judge was talking to *Citizen Leo Brock* about her origins and her philosophy -- and it was some of the best monologues in the whole series.
In all fairness to Judge though, her talk to Leo of the animalistic nature of human beings (*NOT* what makes us noble and better than animals) was one of the most insightful, chilling and disturbing observations stated in the entire series (in a series that has tons insightful comments by the characters).
And the most interesting part was that Leo *agreed* with Judge after she made that speech. And that tells you all need to know about Leo!
Ah, Citizen Brock, of course - thank you!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy You are very welcome! I am just so happy to have watch this spoiler talk with you and Mike!!
I remember that chapter distinctly because it was one of the best moments in the book, in my opinion.
It reminded me much of Heath Ledger's Joker speech in "The Dark Knight" about the animalistic base nature of man.
Because it concerns itself on not what makes us noble and better than animals, but that animalistic part of each individual that is only self-interested about one's owns (not even one's species) survival!
And it explained why she does what she does once she was given the power to run the society -- and why she is so horrible!!
But again, Leo agreed with her philosophy and saw it to be true. If one needs proof, reread his rant near the end about the purpose of "progress" and ultimate "goal" of said progress. That was really disturbing and I believe that Judge influenced and impressed him a great deal during that conversation...Savine was not the only "villain" who shaped Leo's "new" perspective of the world.
Cannot wait to see what may happen next!
@@luckyleo25 Great analogy with the Joker speech, and it would seem Leo did learn his lessons rather too well!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasyThanks! I going to watch your review of "The Wisdom of Crowds" now.
Can't wait to view it!😊
@@luckyleo25 Thank you! It’s a lot of gushing, I’m afraid!
But is Orso really dead ? There is some evidence to suggest things may not have turned out the way we think eg. Vic tells Tallow she in trouble for helping Orso escape ( this is long after Savine's intervention ) and he was hanged by the traditional method ie. falling through a trapdoor. Scope to switch his body out ? I know it's a long shot but I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if Orso appears again !
ps. My rankings for this trilogy is 1. The Trouble with Peace 2. A Little Hatred 3. The Wisdom of Crowds. Overall probably my favourite First Law trilogy.
Orso!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I turned to your video 30 seconds after finishing the audio books
Glad you enjoyed the series!
I feel like this book had many missed opportunities and it's probably one of my least favorite books but it definitely shows why Abercrombie is one of the best writers... LOL I'll copy and paste my reddit post in case you wanna check it out, Mike
After having a couple weeks to let the last book digest... I think it's actually great. Yes, it is my least favorite in the trilogy and I think it had many missed opportunities, but it's great. After the first trilogy, I hated Bayaz and I wanted our protagonist to win. The first trilogy tried to make our protagonist get away from Bayaz's rule and become their own people, but Bayaz got the seed and that was a gg. This second trilogy however, we see the great change happen and the protagonist sort of get one up on Bayaz at the end. But now I feel it's sort of swapped where, after what they did to Orso we're like... you know what, go ahead Bayaz; fuck shit up lol It's begging the question, should these people be free of Bayaz or not. In the first trilogy, Bayaz won and some characters were miserable, but there was order and our protagonists survived. In this trilogy, they beat Bayaz (in a way) but these protagonist ( I think at least ) are worse people, they're still miserable and again, they killed my boy Orso off, so fuck em LOL Even Orso as a character stayed the same in this last book with all his quips, whereas everyone was changing. I feel Abercrombie essentially killed him off for this reason. With the great change, what doesn't want to change is eventually killed. This is why I think this last book and trilogy was great, and even this series as a whole. It keeps us switching perspectives. In the first trilogy I wanted the protagonist to be free of Bayaz and be their own people, and after this trilogy, I'm thinking... were they actually just better off with Bayaz? And after that ending (Rikke's vision) I think the third and (final?) trilogy, will be about Bayaz bringing Auez back and bringing back the age of the demons because humans are just not worth protecting or being around in general. I can totally see the series ending in that way lol But uhh.. yeah. I had all these thoughts in my head these past couple days, hopefully I was able to articulate it pretty well since it feels like I had 100 thoughts at once while typing this.
I've been waiting for my dad to finish so we could talk about it... so this was great. Needed the therapy too. I've already read it twice, I enjoyed it much more the second time because I wasn't stuck thinking about my expectations so much. I was wondering the whole time when Ferro would come back and kill Bayaz. But well said door Orso... poor Gorst... Honestly I would still like to see Logan come back... He's just my favorite character. But ya, I'm already counting down the days until the next book comes out no matter what it is. I'm excited to see where this prophecy goes, sounds like a frickin' blood bath! I did read the whole half a king series. It was good, just not as well fleshed out as the first law world. What should i read NEXT!?
P.s really appreciate the channel!
Late to comment but my two cents on the revolution aspect: I love how he mixed different types of revolutions that we've seen historically. Not just geographically, but chronologically different. The transitioning away from feudalism marks it a bourgeois or liberal revolution like the French. While at the same time, the economics lead to a proletariat revolution. In theory the bourgeois revolution would lead to an industrial transition which then makes the conditions right for the proletariat revolution. Abercrombie pushes the industrial period forward so the two revolutionary forces of our modern world in a way happen simultaneously. Very fun to read.
Finished it just now - can finally watch this spoiler video. I REEEEEALLLY wanted to hear Rikke explain her vision!!!!!
I didn’t accept orsos death, not even when the hanging chapter started but about a page into I realized that there was no way and I just get depressed lol. Orso is a great guy and was the most kind one but he went out like a champ.
I have been thinking about Rikke's choice near the end and how some people thought it was out of character for her. I thought about it and I understand those peoples' viewpoints but I think they are missing the bigger picture here:
I understand their point of view but I did not think that choice was out of character for Rikke. Spoliers follow...
Rikke really wants to be a good leader and she wants to end the constant wars in the North and constant wars between the North and the Union.
She stated herself that the North usually comes out on the losing end against the Union and she rather would like for that to not happen again.
She has been told time and time again that she needs to hard as a leader -- especially to live up the name of Black Rikke and lead some of the hardest men in the North.
So she has Isern whispering in her ear about being a hard leader
Not to mention the fact the she really felt bad about betraying Leo, her childhood friend and occasional lover. A man who put his life on the line to save her life. She saw what a bitter and broken wretch he became due to her "treachery" (and it was even worse since she did not know that Leo did not know anything about Sevine's treachery).
So in her mind, Orso had to go. For the sake of North and to salve the guilt that she felt over betraying Leo, Orso had to be the "sacrificial lamb" for the hope for a better future.
Hmmm.. if one wanted to, one may find a religious allegory about a man too good for a very brutal world. And since this is a brutal world that was more or less shaped by a cambion (a half-human/half-demon) in the Old times -- for this world to have a chance at a better future that good man has to die... ha, ha -- very cute.
Anyway it was not like Rikke was completely okay about it -- she was devastated by her decision! (just most of the readers were! 😉).
But, on the sunny side, she finally learned her last lesson that Isern was trying to teach her, how to truly have a "heart of stone". Which I take to mean to be true to her own convictions and not to overly worry what others may think -- the mark of a true leader.
yeah it's not out of character at all. It was pretty much her character coming into her own and realizing her full destiny that was clearly spelled out via chekhov's gun long ago and becoming a leader who is capable of making 'hard decisions' like you said.
Yeap, she 'made of her heart a stone'. It was the moment her whole arc was coming too.
@@ducky36F EXACTLY
I just finished the book a couple hrs ago...I feel numb and a profound emptiness. Part in how it ended, and part because it has ended. If I wasn't such a stone hearted northman(or if I was drunk) I may have shed a tear when orso died. When I thought Joe was going to kill him in the beginning I was ready to rage quit.
Just finished reading this and I loved it. Sad for Orso and Gorst...even sad for what Leo becomes. But that's this world and I can't get enough of it.
Clover was my favorite new character.
Orso was amazing. It hurt me to see how it all turned out. Especially since I think it was so out of character to run right to where Leo was. He seemed much more clever than that.
New characters. Definitely like The Nail and Issern, and their interactions with Rikke.
I also feel like Gorst death was needless. I get it, but it just seemed like a waste of such a beast of a character. The same goes for Sulfur, I think him or Bayaz would have been wise to Sabine's company. All three of those deaths made me say "why would you do that?"
Overall, it was well written and a page turner, and it had me excited about the future with cleft lip and the return of Gulstrad (maybe Euz or another random demon of legend).
Edit- Calder stated that he loved his wife enough to almost not sleep with others. SO while it may be Steff, it could also be anyone else.
Finally, somebody else brought up the most significant part of RIkke's vision! The part that mentioned the possible return of a very possible mythic figure.
And that will be really awesome! Because it may bring about another "technological" shift. Not to mention...someone really went hog wild and broke The First Law...
And that is a big deal with an "F"!
Idk all three deaths make sense to me. I sure as hell didn’t see Leo’s betrayal coming, and as far as Orso knew Leo didn’t have such a move in him, plus he was pretty taken away with the fact that he’d survived Judge.
Sulfur, so the whole set up is Bayaz underestimating the “ants” and Glokta using that against him, so why would he suspect simple servants as a threat to him? They are beneath his notice. And then I’d imagine Bayaz sent Sulfur in expecting him to be able to take back power in one move, but if he failed then it wouldn’t be Bayaz himself at risk, and we all know Bayaz is the real only important one :P
Gorst, yeah it was meaningless, but I think that was the point. Gorst dying for nothing pretty much signals Orso’s papers are stamped to me.
I agree with the Good Doctor, this is Joe's best trilogy by far.
Just finished the book, one of my favorites of all time. Hoping he will write another trilogy!
35:04 the child could be scales son with calders wife. scales son would still be part of bethods line and that would be ironic. stour being more like scale and then scales son being more like calder (but i guess you dont really get much information about the other kid besides the fact that hes good with a sword which calder isnt)
Holy crap the pacing of this book was absolutely breakneck.
As much as I'd love another first law trilogy (even another set of standalones like the first), I'm actually more intrigued with the new series Joe is playing around with. Again, fantasy. Again, Joe Abercrombie. But more magic. Magic is something I missed from First Law. It was very subtle in the first trilogy and gradually became more and more irrelevant.
Plus, I want Joe to have time to marinate over where he's going with first law. Not that he would, but I want to make sure he's not pressured at all.
bayaz is gonna open the gates as he faces defeat to fill himself with power ....
I haven't read yet amazon is taking forever to deliver I ordered it 6 months ago.. I don't care I have to watch the best booktubers talk about this
Finally! Not enough love for this series
I want to see Joe Abercrombie become a household name!!
Why isn’t this three hours long?!!!
You could watch it three times!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy nooooooo I need a constant stream of new content
@@ReallyGoodandKind Ah, sorry Kal - We’ll try to ramble more next time! 😁
Really wanted a Rikke/Bayaz showdown. Winning the North being the first Battle in their War
The First law always leaves you wanting another book,,, or 5.
OH in the end when clover goes to bayaz's library to train that kid- he first comes upon a man with a weathered face chopping wood- i thought for a second it was going to be LOGAN!!!! but then it was just bayaz.... meh
I think shivers and salem rews are the two most tenured characters in the books
Aye, true words and no mistake.
What does tenured mean, I googled it and it says something to do with academia😂🤷🏻♂️
@@bloodynine9017 in this case it means they are two character who are in the most books
Good book, but god damn Leo, I hate that bastard. Just when I thought he was getting a redemption arc he proved he didn't learn shit except how to be an even bigger dick. The only thing that gives me comfort is when Savine just rolls right over him in the Closed Council meeting and their private talk. It's an appropriate punishment for him.
One thing I haven't heard anyone talk about is the Seed. I think Pike found the Seed. When he's in the bank vault with Vick, she hears someone breaking something out of sight. I think that was Pike's men breaking down a brick wall that had the Seed sealed up behind it. So I think Glokta is now in possession of the box with the Seed in it. Maybe, I know this is a theory without much to go on.
I'm looking forward to the Hilde revenge plot in whatever comes next. I'm wondering if Bayaz will train her to become a Magi to replace Sulfur. Probably not an Eater though since she's going to return to Adua and she's going to have to blend in without getting caught by other Eaters.
That reminds me, so when Judge arrested Savine, they also locked up Zuri. So did Pike have them bind her up just so she didn't mess up their plans?
Speaking of Calder, his arc really ties into the message of "you have to make of your heart a stone". Calder failed to do the necessary thing and have Shivers kill his brother, and then Scale screwed everything up and also messed up Stour by turning him into an arrogant monster. If Shivers had killed Scale, Shivers probably never would have ended up executing Calder.
My only complaint is that this is too short, I can listen to another hour of talk like this
I envisioned the gunner broad character similar to the Micky Roark/ sin city role...joe is a master of psychology, hope it continues
I must have used the f word in various forms at least 25 times in the ranty review I left for this book. 5 star review, of course, the book is freaking brilliant, but it totally left me traumatized and I had to bawl about it. Like you said, it should make Joe laugh and be satisfied because his writing messed me up so much and his mission is fully accomplished.
I've been nodding along with what you've both been saying since the beginning of the video, so much agreement and similar feelings and impressions from me. Except maybe the wish to see Bayaz get his comeuppance... I pretty much want the opposite, for him and his new little crew to stomp over everything and everyone who's left standing in Adua.
Leo was an alright guy, with "good guy'" morals thrown in with ambition in the previous books. And extremely stupid and easy to lead. In this book he is pretty much just an grumpy old guy, and Ambercrombie changes him into that in a matter of seconds. The stark contrast of his personality from the previous books feels to extreme. We are talking literally 1 day from "good guy, but stupid hero" type, to "mastermind, grumpy, evil overlord". Thankfully Savine seems to have found her humanity. She had such a incredible story arc and transformation. Her changes feel a lot more natural and well "earned" than Orso. As in, they didn't come as abruptly and she didn't just get "wisdom" from nowhere.
There are so many parallells to The Red Army/Peoples Army in China in this. Abercrombie even took the name, as well as having many characters following somewhat the same arc. It of course spirals out from there and takes inspiration from many others things, but the whole movement and taking the capital felt very communistic.
Interesting take, but something about Leo that makes the change all the more stunning and not extreme at all is that he just gained a devious nature and is not a "Mastermind/Overlord" by any stretch of the imagination... He is still extremely stupid and not in control. He is resentful and cruel now, but he never thought further than "Get my son on the throne" and "Be a strong warrior". That alley cat is stupid, entitled and gullible. His motivations in this book was a result of his injuries, jealousy and feelings of inadequacy. He will still depend on Jurand as he did before. He'll resent the help he gets even more now, but he can NOT rule. He will not rule. Savine already made that very clear. He is a product of the people around him. He is also a sad combination of the worst parts of Savine's dads. Say one thing for Sand Dan Glokta, say he is smart. Leo? Noooo
@@fe-real Agree with pretty much everything you wrote. With overlord/mastermind, I mean that he suddenly started to scheme (in the house of the people and the betrayal of Orso) and that he saw himself as a smart schemer and everyone else as dumb. Everything before then was out in the open, direct, except for the rebellion where he was their weakest link. Now he was the strongest link in this "rebellion".
Yes, he will not rule and was outplayed. He however started to suddenly use his brain and changed his personality. The book is over many months, but Leo changed the day after he was suppose to hang. There was 0 development into what he became and he pretty much had no more growth after the opening of the book.
If it had been layed out gradually, it would have been a fantastic twist and build up. It would have felt earned.
The way it was done however, Leo just changed from one book to the next, with less than a week of time, and then didn't really change any more after that.
Character wise this last book might have been the weakest Abercrombie has done. Rike, Clover and Sadine are pretty much the ones that were given time to grow and change (when it comes to Clover, it wasn't really a change, but slowly showing the nuances of the personality that was already there). I would probably include Orso on the list as well. Him losing the burden of the crown showed a new side of him.
Of course just my opinion of it all. Still a solid 4 out of 5 though
I actually thought it's Glokta might have killed Jezal, as a way of kickstarting his grand scheme to wring the union into chaos and start paving the way for the heir he chose.
During Orsos final chapter I kept dreading, but also kind of hoping Bayaz would arrive in adua. I kept waiting for him to show up in adua any ways near the end, but after Rikke betrayed him and I realized Leo was 100% having him hung I figured Bayaz would cut in and save his ass, even if indirectly. But instead we got the zuri reveal with yoru before hand, and the long eye prophecy. I was alright with that, but I kept thinking he’d show up because I didn’t want Orso to die. I figured he’d show up and kill Leo or something because he fucked up his whole plan he’d later out in the first trilogy. But I was dreading it because I thought he’d kill Savine and Glokta as well. But the way it actually went felt so real and it sucked, but it was absolutely brilliant at the same time.
I sort of predicted Orso's death as soon as I realized that Age of Madness was going to be the french revolution in Adua because Orso is just so much a Louis XVI figure. That maybe why I didn't let myself get really attached to him, even though he is probably the only decent person in the world.
Thought this was happening in October. Saving until I finish
ya judge was raised by ghosts in the far country, and settled disputes for them at a young age because she was an outsider and considered neutral
I was a little disappointed that there was no showdown with Bayaz at the end. I spent the last 40% with increasing anxiety of 'where's Bayaz?' that didn't entirely have a payoff though it's clear he (both Bayaz and Abercrombie) are thinking long term and future books. Compared to the showdown I expected the Yoru Sulphur death was underwhelming.
Gunner Broad- while his arc was disappointing because in many ways nothing really changed I think it was incredibly realistic. I remember reading Viktor Frankl's book about surviving the Holocaust and he said the Nzis came in three types: tthe legitimate psychos who enjoyed causing misery, the ones who used whatever power they had to do something good for their inmates, and the largest category were those who just got inured to atrocity and did what they had to do. I think Broad falls into that latter category and if he had some large redemption it wouldn't be genuine because he doesn't believe he truly deserves it after all he has done and Judge used that self-doubt.
Ranking: A Little Hatred (I loved the depth of social commentary and wisdom within), The Wisdom of Crowds, and then Trouble with Peace (few write big battles better but lacked some depth compared to the other two).
I wouldn't want to die for wild girl quim but then again I'm not Orso.
Orso could have took this advice from a previous title. "We should forgive our enemies, but not before they are hanged."
Final comment for me!
I feel that going forward, any future first law books will have to be larger in scope. They've foreshadowed steam rail technology so much. Give the present state of affairs another 50 years; steam transport will be widespread. People will be able to move across the circle of the world so quickly. It'll involve a much broader and much faster paced story.
Of course, I'm an idiot, so if Lord Grimdark comes up with something else I'm sure it'll be better.
I loved Leo and his actions in this book, all with Savine, Orso, putting his son on the throne etc, as well as all the things you described about him maturing in a grim way. He is broken but I think he salvaged a lot of things in the end, even though it may not feel that way. I didn't like Orso, I think he was too good of a character, the kind of good that I dislike when I come across in real life (it's difficult to describe the feeling). I absolutely adored all of the scenes with Savine and the babies, the part about the little one biting her breast while breastfeeding was very relatable to my wife who is going through the very same things right now! I also love how the democratic experiment failed so miserably with the monarchy reinstated very swiftly. So many things that I loved in this series, the inventions, the investments, the change in society with technology. I recently read Hilaire Belloc's "The Servile State" that reminded me a lot of what "the little people" were going through. Brilliant trilogy and I agree with Philip, I think this is my favourite trilogy, too.
...sorry for the wall of text!
Casting orso - errol Flynn/ Wesley from princess bride
Bayez-jk simmons
Who did rikke see in the long eye that said “I am returned” I thought it was the bloody nine
Very late, but for posterity, it's probably Glustrod
Joe has ro keep going! One day!!!!!!!
Did you stop reading Malazan? Still waiting for the latest spoiler talk.
No. Reading them every other month. The Midnight Tides spoiler talks came out in August. Starting Bonehunters in October.
@@mikesbookreviews AH, must have missed the latest one. Anyway enjoying the channel very much. Keep on reading.
Honestly if Joe does another time jump and ends up writing the Adua telephone directory I’d be happy with that
Did Glokta get the eaters to kill Jeezel to help bring about the change?
How's the leg?
awesome
Lets gooooo
Yes
Luna Society from 1765 to about 1813 in Birmingham UK
I can't watch this 😭 I still have 6 books before then.
Read fast! 😁 Nah, take your time. We’ll be waiting for you when you’re done.
Did Orso really die? I felt Abercrombie left the door open a crack with the simpler hanging machine, probably designed by the great machinist Curnsbick, and the scene ends with Orso’s hanging left to our imagination.
hes dead ;-; Joe is too merciless for that
Was that Black Calder’s son or Stour Nightfall’s son? The kid reacted, or at least Abercrombie described him, after Stour’s name was mentioned.
In the Clover PoV chapter "The Moment", Bayaz says to Clover that he's sure "the lad won't make the same mistakes as his half-brother", or something to that effect. So it's Calder's son, without a doubt. Also, it's funny that just like Bethod before him, Calder sired two sons from two women with the younger of the two going on to fulfill his legacy. Abercrombie and his cyclic storytelling is very subtle, but very good.
Nice talk guys, even though I dont agree with Orso and I dont think Rikke would do what she did. Bit too much of twists and firstplain shocks close to the end of book.
Also as with Imperium strikes back, Trouble with Peace is way beyond "Wisdom" in story and quality
And also I think Glokta has Jezal killed in the first book. Since he told Savine “the plan was to put your child on the throne” I think maybe Glokta told Leo to kill Lord Marshall forest and take over the agriont. I really dislike Glokta after this ending.
Great point.
Hildi is the daughter of Friendly. Broad is the son of Logen Ninefingers. Neither knows their true parentage. That's my theory, fwiw.
Why is NOBODY mentioning that the "bald weaver's" actions in Rikke's vision!
Spoilers:
Someone is coming back and it looks like a stone surrounded by a circle of runes that is going to bring that person back.
My money is that the bald weaver is going to do the ultimate dick move and break *The First Law* and bring back a certain legendary cambion from the Old Time...
If I am right, we are going to be in for some fun times...
Could you expand on this?
Maybe I’ll have to reread the chapter to refresh my mind. But I thought Bayez was the bald weaver then it went to the what appeared to be a creature waking or trying to break out. Have we been given any clues or information as to what that was, other than what we got in the last chapter?
Was the blonde girl Hilde, Orso’s friend?
Its gonna happen at the heroes
@@hellobill5329 Yes, the blonde girl was Orso's friend, Hildi.
In "Curse and Blessings" page 509 regarding Rikke's vision. Read the part about where she saw a burning stone in a circle of runes in the eye of the bald weaver. (Sounds like the Seed, does it not?) And in the circle of runes, she saw a black door. And she saw a figure made of blinding light and the figure said in a thunderous voice, "I am returned."
Go back to the The First Law trilogy (or go The Third Law wIki) to see who that could possibly be...
If it is who I think it is:
1. WOW!!! That is the ULTIMATE dick move! But I believe that it is in the potential of the bald weaver in his arrogance to try to pull this dick move!
2. Things are going to get very interesting...
@@luckyleo25 I’ll have to do this. Thank you!
@@sniped96you what makes you say this?
I really enjoyed the book 😊
I don't think this was The last book we get in The First Law world.
Still watching but want to add my two cents. Maybe one of the weaker Abercrombie books but with such a strong finish.
I think glokta had king jezal killed.
Oh interesting. I think it was Bayaz. Why do you think Glokta did it?
“The plan was to put your child on the throne”- Glokta. It definitely was not Bayaz, 100% certain it was Glokta, crippled bastard
@@bloodynine9017 I don’t know. Killing Bayaz’s figure head when he’s in town seems a bit reckless for Glokta. I think Bayaz did it but who knows.
@@Kexkon It’s 100% Glokta, Jezal had to die in order to start the great change, nobody had any respect for Orso, Glokta definitely did it my friend. “The plan was to put your child on the throne” says it all, what would he do ask Jezal nicely to step down😂😂
Bump!
Nice collab, tho I'm not up to date with this series I'll save the video for a future date