Not only did Beatrice's sickness infect everything, BoJack tried to burn everything. He tried to go down a number of times and never managed. I think that's part of why "the view from halfway down" hit so hard. BoJack spent so much time trying to numb out from his life, even outright attempting suicide a number of times in the show. He tried to get rid of the sickness by destroying everything, until he learns to just. Get help with his sickness.
You also gotta love how after Joseph says this line Beatrice says "but not my baby" and Joseph replies: "Yes, especially your baby." This fucking show, man--.
I always thought that the reason why Henrietta and the other servants who took her stuff were scratched because she so badly did not want to remember them. While those with blank faces were like that because she didn't really care about them.
@@IsisDragonfly yeah, that seemed to go over a lot of peoples heads though, they shouldve added some blurring and distortion to the faces for further ambiguity
@Emily Bailey It's probably a combination. She can't remember these peoples' faces but she remembers how she felt about them. You ever see a teenager's yearbook? They scribble over people they hate.
It almost feels simbolic that he's trying to end the cycle of abuse. He could tell her off or leave, but he leaves her with a beautiful scene. Even if Bojack couldn't end the cycle, he kinda became aware of it and wasn't always as bad
Yeah, when I did a rewatch, every time Beatrice said nasty things it just made me feel sad. The way she delivers some of her nasty comments too, there's a sense of agony and sadness behind it.
Pretty much every interaction with beatrice shows that she was trying very much to do the best she could with the damaged tools she had. By the end of the show i coudnt see beatrice as a bad person. Just a person stuck with her own history and her own bad choices and unable to escape. She tries to stop others from becoming her but doesnt know how to do it in a healthy way because she was never instilled with healthy coping mechanisms.
@Mia A Herrera I wasn't mad at Bojack when he tormented Beatrice with her doll. It was correct of Hollyhook to have a problem with Bojack doing that and I reallly pitied Beatrice in that moment but I couldn't be mad at Bojack.
Kinda sad to we all know she really did love BoJack but she didn’t want to show any weakness at all and didn’t want to end up like her mother in a way she was
I loved that mashup ending of all those quotes, and I never noticed how when Joseph tells a young Beatrice that "your sickness has contaminated everything" could have a deeper meaning. Her actions and how she never dealt with her trauma and passed it down to others, really did spread. Her sickness truly did contaminate everything, or in this case, everyone
And Joseph should be the one to talk. His sickness contaminated everything too. And unlike Beatrice or Bojack, he spread his sickness throughout decades just because he didn't want to have to do something difficult or outside his narrow scope of what was proper.
The "your sickness has contaminated everything" is also a trauma that was passed onto Bojack from Beatrice. He also believed that his inner "sickness" would eventually destroy everything he touched. I think there was an episode in which he said so himself. And the tar that consumes everything in The View from Halfway Down is also a symbol of the "sickness". The Horseman family had internalized this message that they were sick and that everything that they touched would get contaminated as well.
@@ScorpionViper1001 yeah i feel like a lot of his actions and words were sort of "comical" like when he says the thing about not being able to empathize, but the sheer evil-ness of his character, especially towards the women in his own family is really telling. im happy hollyhock grew up with healthy male figures, and got away from bojack in the end
@@ScorpionViper1001 It kinda makes me morbidly curious to know where Joseph got his "sickness" as well along the Sugarman line (as well as Butterscotch's), as well as how he met and fell in love with Honey, who's like his free-spirited opposite. Considering he was born in the early 1900s, there's probably plenty of experiences that could've made him the eventual jerk that we see from Beatrice's perspective... 0_0
One thing I noticed from this episode is when she’s recalling all of her trauma and she smokes all of her cigarette at once is what Bojack is referring to in “Free Churro” when he says “...one time she smoked a whole cigarette in one long drag. Yeah. I watched her do it.”
Thank you for telling us about this! I'm not used to a cartoon I really have to WATCH the body language of, as odd as it may seem, but I appreciatively say they spoiled us so!
Pretty crazy that the preponderance of toxicity in this show is traceable back to the horrors of war. People will lament the death tolls without considering the multi-generational impact of those events.
@@llIlIlllII not at all, I mean yeah violence has always been around, but war it's something that started when humans discovered agriculture , when the societys started to be a thing
It's so weird how important pancakes are to the plot. Beatrice wasn't allowed pancakes because she was a girl, "The horse from horsin around" was making pancakes for Sara Lynn before the "don't stop dancing" speech, Todd tells the story of making pancakes for BoJack on their first morning, BoJack makes pancakes for Sara Lynn when she moves in. There's quite a lot of
@@thebatnextdoor6138 In the Old Sugarman Place we see Beatrice and Honey making pancakes, Honey tells Beatrice she can smell the pancakes but not eat them since it's "father's breakfast", and she's told she can't have ice cream either later on in the same scene. And Todd had actually made hash-browns, but up until he's being rescued from the improve ship Bojack and Todd both remember them as pancakes originally.
Yes, pancakes are a motif, but they’re not directly relevant to the plot. It could’ve been any other food, and the story would remain completely unchanged. You keep chasing that English teacher dream, though.
I am pretty sure Beatrice honestly thought she was helping Henrietta and Hollyhock. Henrietta was able to become a nurse and Hollyhock was adopted by a large, loving family. By this point Butterscotch was going no where and I am pretty sure Bojack was already becoming an alcoholic, as seen from his flashback in another episode. Beatrice saved Henrietta and Hollyhock from the poison in her life.
In some ways, it's a twisted mirror of Joseph's actions as well, believing he's helping but in fact just breaking everyone around him. Except Joseph never really has the self-awareness of Bojack or even Beatrice to know when he's destroying someone.
I also just realized something too... Hollyhock has Beatrice's diamond shaped beauty mark... despite not being related to her by blood. So shouldn't Hollyhock have had the triangle or stripe that Butterscotch has?
@@francisharkins Pretty sure that was intentional. This show has amazing attention to detail. When they first meet Butterscotch tells Beatrice she reminds him of his mother because of the diamond marking. Latter on when Beatrice is talking to Henrietta about the pregnancy she tells her "Let me guess, he told you you looked just like his mother." and she rolls her eyes. Meaning she believes the diamond thing he told her was a lie and he said that just to get to sleep with her. But since Hollyhock has the same marking I assume it was probably true and that's where she got it from. Some genes will skip one generation. For example. I look nothing like my parents or my siblings. To the point that I thought I was adopted when I was a kid. But when you look at old pictures of my grandmother on the dad's side from when she was younger I'm like a carbon copy of hers. It's kind of scary. Genetics are very interesting. Sorry for the long comment.
That mashup of quotes while the doll burns was so effective! Since it's a gif it almost looks like the doll is breathing while burning. A great metaphor for Beatrice's life.
I never noticed the nervous tick. I love all the small things you miss in this show. Like how Beatrice's memories of talking to Corbin in the park got more colorful after she heard him speak his mind? As soon as he gives her a taste of freedom from a life she hated, her world literally brightened. Never noticed it. Just read it in a comment on another Cellos video (I think).
The ending of that episode always hits me. The fact that Beatrice seems at a lost of words when describing the ice cream... something that she might have never tasted... It just breaks me. She can't live the life she wished for, it's too late, so she can only dream what it could've been like. Her dementia only makes it harder for her to get a clear picture of that life. Her trauma, repeating itself in her head over and over again. It's impossible not to feel bad for her. Great video! I always like your analysis, they make me see a lot of things I couldn't even imagine before. Hope you have a good day.
Yup, 4.2 she get a freeze pop, but it’s possible she passed that down to bojack as a kid because remember he asked for an ice cream in 1.1 when he’s trying to write his memoir, so maybe he wasn’t allowed to have them as a child, either. It wasn’t till he was out of the house he started eating uncontrollably, possibly because his food was always monitored.
@Chris Joshua Perez How do we know he knows this? Or are you saying he only knew about the ice cream part. Because I highly doubt she would ever let herself be vulnerable enough to explain her trauma to him
I just wanted to point out that when Beatrice and Corbin are having their date, the background's color contrast starts to become more brighter and colorful as Beatrice is seeing Corbin in a "new light". When they shared the same ideology he literally brightened her life for that one moment.
Actually made me wanna know what made corbin and bea broke away, like they talked after she kissed butterscotch , like shouldnt rhere be a bit conflict? A ma who looks dangerously free and another man engaged but respects the intentions to have free tought and speech to new ideas(and ice cream making) Two qualities she seeked for so long after handling so many abuse from her father so wont there be a little competition?
Joseph saying "Your sickness has infected everything" is such great writing because, as Johnny just spent 13 minutes explaining, it was HIS sickness that infected everyone.
She had ice cream one time, when her mother went insane before she was lobotomized. It was probably a painful memory but she chose to overlook that to connect with bojack. So much depth in this show.
@@jovindsouza3407 oh no she did taste it, sadly its not ice cream, its a freeze pop stick thing thats probably made more from fruit juice freezed rather than sugar milk and cream like ice cream which ig is much healthier. Her mom and dad are both stating ice cream to be a "boys only snack" and would make her fat when "women shoyld be skinny" mann the 1940s were so different
I loved that last ice cream comment. The writing and voice acting are just perfect. The small stop between "It's so...delicious" makes me think that with all the trauma regarding weight loss she may never have actually tasted ice cream. So she's just commenting based on what other people have told her about ice cream. One thing about this are the lost opportunities in her old age to enjoy things she might have actually wanted to enjoy. Another thing is that instead of a snarky comment she actually says something nice to Bojack, even if the topic is something that is usually something she is very touchy about. In a way that is a perfect redemption arc.
I honestly think it was a great for her to go out as a character. Her and Bojack just having a conversation and him comforting her in the best way he can.
I cut off contact with my mother in 2016. She was sexually abused all through her life and kept sexual abusers all in our home, and abused me too. Beatrice is the one character that helps me find empathy for her. This tremendously helped me bring some great points about deep generational trauma from my whole family into therapy. Bojack definitely should have been nominated... Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Kinda relate you. My mother was sexually abused by his brother, so do I, but the thing is I seek for help. It's so fking horrible but it works for me. I wish you the best ♡ (sorry for my english, is not my mother tonge language)
that's super tough to hear. For me, my grandma had a really hard life, with internalized homophobia, sexism, and seeing her mother and sibling die at a young age. But my mom was the golden child of her family. She ended up giving me a far worse childhood than she had, with my abusive grandmother as my caretaker. I have some sympathy for my grandma, but not for my mom. Neither of their circumstances excused their actions though. ie: my grandfather was sent to a labor camp and survived, but is not abusive. Here's to breaking generational curses.
12:04 The funny thing is, Bojack's attempt to reverse times arrow ultimately failed as Beatrice realised she was at the Care home. Why? *She had never tasted ice cream, she wasnt allowed to.*
I like how Creamerman is idealized in her mind during their second date with the world getting brighter and his eyes becoming more beautiful. I bet he wasn’t as appealing as Beatrice made him seem but was rather a representation of a “different life” Beatrice imagined she could have had. In other words, he’s her Charlotte. She, like Bojack, blames others for her unhappiness and tells herself that if she had made one or two decisions differently her life would have been wonderful. Bojack tells himself if he had just moved away with Charlotte he would be happy and Beatrice tells herself if she had just married Corbin Creamerman she would be happy. But in either case they would have both probably been just as miserable because ultimately they’re responsible for their own happiness
I love the creative use of animation to portray Beatrice's dementia throughout the episode, it's so unique and cleverly done. It's episodes like these that make BoJack Horseman one of, if not the, best animated series of all times as it uses its form of an animated series to its strengths to complement and add more layers to the narrative that you otherwise couldn't do in a live action series.
I could go as far to say it’s one of the best shows of all time period I put it in the same league as breaking bad or sopranos it’s an amazing and tragic show
@@freesuckerMCR I hate that comparison Rick and Morty is a good show as well but I think Bojack horseman is better just because its soo damn real set in a animated world.
@@freesuckerMCR second this, Bojack and Don Draper have a lot of aspects in common, and the shows both have a lot of attention to detail. Haven't seen Breaking Bad yet, to my shame.
The way that the silhouette in which honey is drawn anytime she is shown in the episode is the exact position of where she is sitting in front of the piano after Beatrice is reintroduced to her after the lobotomy in the old Sugarman place. That seems to have been the last “ memory “ of honey in beatrices dementia riddled mind.
The issue is, when coersion or influence is applied to deeply personal, emotional, and one of the most intensity physically overwhelming situations like this, the objective "right" does not change the way it would have traumatized Henrietta. Much like Beatrice's father might have been "right" (although we know now toys and betting exposed to scarlet fever didn't pose a threat), it was he bond to the doll that was what mattered to her. But, just like with her father, when Beatrice took the reins in that situation, she removed the agency of someone young, vulnerable, and in no state of mind to be cool and collected about what the future would look like. Instead, the wife of the man that put her in such a scary, unpredictable, and nuanced situation told her how her life would look and she could very likely look at that, and in many way it truly was, removing Henrietta's agency. Worse, her agency to make an informed, thought out, processed choice about something that changed her body, released a slew of hormones at birth designed to bond her to the baby going haywire when watching Hollyhock taken away, and feeling powerless in her most vulnerable moment. Objectively, Henrietta was so much better off never having the illegitimate child of a wealthy, married man - but more than anything, she should have had complete say over what to do, and be allowed to ask questions and speak up without being steered by the people that had everything to gain by making "her mistake" disappear. This, leaving Henrietta alone and with nothing and no one after having gone through it all, no "good thing," no silver lining to a bad situation in the form of her own family and love if she had decided to have her daughter and make her own way, no direction, ambition, or plan she had been able to choose while making a decision for herself to not keep a pregnancy or baby. Just... empty. We don't know much about how Henrietta dealt with that deep trauma, the fruition of a metaphor of a burning babydoll that would do more harm than good, of Beatrice' projection of her regrets and 'coulda shoulda' onto a vulnerable girl in crises, but we do know what happens when young women and girls are pushed or forced outright into a choice they didn't get to make in either direction, *and it isn't good.* Amazing illustration of not just generational trauma, but trauma as a sickness which can absolutely spread - sealed with her father's foreshadowing statement.
it shows the difficult decisions women have to make just to get by. keep the baby and be dirt poor and never pursue your schooling/ career or give it up, deal with the trauma and build some sort of life for yourself
the fact that one of the smartest, well written shows i've ever seen is disguised as a funny horse cartoon is genius. bojack horseman really is an absolute masterpiece.
Great video (again)! I also like how Beatrice's "NO!" when her father burns her baby doll echoes the "NO!" she screamed earlier in the season when Bojack threw her doll off his deck.
Anyone else noticed how the 3 Sugarman family members all lived the end of their lives with something to do with their minds/brain? Beatrice ends up getting dementia, Crackerjack gets shot in the head while in war, and Honey ends up getting lobotomized because of Joseph's decision to have it done.
I think Beatrice's memories being out of sequence made the most sense in the episode. People with dementia usually only remember bits and pieces of memories while others they might remember something things like it was yesterday. Plus, people that were consistent, important, and/or constant in their lives are more likely to be remembered than those that were like the equivalent of NPCs that made no impact on their lives. So I don't wholeheartedly agree with the notion that she's an unreliable narrator.
In my understanding, being an unreliable narrator doesn't necessarily mean that their perspective doesn't make sense, but rather that their recounting is notably removed from others' experience of reality. I believe that it makes perfect sense within the context of dementia, but within the context of reality the way that the majority of people experience it, and perhaps even the way she herself experienced it, we can't rely on her testimony to tell us what really happened.
And the thing is, this show depicts her background the way great writing ought to: it just presents it, plain and simple. It doesn't try to excuse her behavior, and doesn't try to demonize her either. In fact, if you watch closely, you realize that not once does anyone try to "explain away" Beatrice's mistreatment of BoJack--and he doesn't realize that people get on him for acting down to her solely because, in those moments, he's being a vindictive asshole.
I just noticed the detail that a lot of things are misspelled in Beatrice's memory, the EXIT door reads "XITE" and the Grand Hotel is written like "GRNAD HOTEL" further demonstrating how damaged Beatrice's memory is and how we only see the events the way she sees them...
3:58 I didn't catch this before, but in another video, someone pointed out how he throws away a cigarette, but shattering glass is heard instead, showing how details of her memory are often in conflict. This show goes so deep, I swear...
I feel like it was a missed opportunity for Beatrice to not meet with Corbin Creamerman when she was in the nursing home. It could’ve made a great parralel to bojack’s relationship with Charlotte, as “the one that got away”, characters who could’ve of made broken people feel loved and cared for.
I've mostly only listened to this video but have watched every Bojack Horseman episode and I don't understand what you're referring to. Was Corbin Creamerman in the same nursing home as Beatrice? In the first one of the second one?
@@camelopardalis84 No he wasn't but Sese RedDead is saying that the writers easily could have and maybe should have put him there and have Beatrice meet him again as a way for that particular relationship to develop/find closure.
By far my favorite episodes are "Times Arrow" and "The Old Sugarman Place". The damage Beatrice experienced and how well you explain the traumatic events and subsequent generational trickle down is hauntingly beautiful. I feel most people can in some ways identify with their own lives and family disfunctions. Thank you for yet another fantastic video. Love your face!
Totally agreed. Time’s Arrow and The Old Sugarman Place are so goddamn awesome and wonderful and they make me think about different perspectives that bad people might have and how they’re affected by important events. This episode makes me think about my old abusive stepmom, and what could possibly had led her to her impatient and rude feelings and statements. The Old Sugarman Place features one of my favorite scenes in the series, Eddie grabbing Bojack and flying into the air with him, and when they fall, the piano drop into the lake gives me chills every time, along with Eddie’s following statements.
2 things I wanna mention 1. I think that one of Beatrice's last moments was trying to he nice, she didn't chastise Bojack for bringing up ice cream when she never had any as a kid, she just humors him, trying to make him feel better 2. Bojack mentioned once that he saw Beatrice take out an entire cigarette in a single drag, in this episode, we see she does exactly that while thinking about all the stuff she's been through
Isn’t it especially sad that Beatrice went out of her way to avoid forming healthy, loving bonds with anyone in her life because of the trauma she experienced living with her lobotomized mother, but she ultimately formed dementia and became as helpless and mentally impaired as she always feared? And died alone.
09:25 - Yes it is horrible that Joseph still expects Honey to be a mother after being *lobotomized*. But you gotta remember that at the time this was perceived to be a valid medical treatment, and while some people understood that it left people an husk of their old selves, I very much doubt that Joseph realized how much damage he was causing. That's one of the big tragedies here -- most of Joseph's errors are not due to evil, but due to ignorance. So the people he hurt don't even get a clear villain against whom the can lash out. Hell, he even gave Crackerjack a good job so his daughter would enjoy a decent lifestyle -- a lesser man would have cut her loose after she eloped.
Although you could argue that Joseph mainly give Butterscotch a high paying job because if his precious daughter ended up in poverty it would have reflected badly on him and made it appear as if he failed as a parent. Perhaps he helped Butterscotch out not because of his own kindness but more to avoid any potential embarrassment.
while true, i think his comment about 'not understanding women's emotions, and i will not learn' is pretty indicative of him. ignorance, willful ignorance in joseph's case, is still Not Good. it's what he thought would help, to be sure, but ultimately, he could have stepped up, learned, and became better.
The way you put “why I have half a mind” and “ you wouldn’t want to end up like you’re mother” over this burning baby doll turkey shows what Beatrice felt like not just in her childhood but her entire life. Always burning
When Bojack asks her if she can taste the ice cream, she hesitates, searching for a word to describe it then just goes for a generic "delicious." - Because she was never allowed to have ice cream.
Yeah. But the fact he tries to make her happy, not even knowing she wasn't allowed to have ice cream, shows that he wants her to have some kind of peace. But you'll notice he doesn't really care until she calls out to him by name. He couldn't just leave her alone like that. So giving her a happy mental image is likely the best way he could leave her.
Personally I really liked the subtle difference between people she simply forgot having no face and people she INTENTIONALLY forgot having scratched out faces. This was quite a powerful episode overall.
This show's writing is so, so criminally underrated. Sometimes i just kinda wish they didn't go the adult animation way just to reach more people, i personally love it but its always the main stopper when i try to get people into it.
@@sushimomo6384 This show is filled with strong portrayal of depression, generational trauma and various forms of abuse. It's understandable that some people may not be interested in it because it's too depressing. The show is incredible. But at the same time, some of the themes can be mentally triggering and disturbing to the ones suffering from similar forms of trauma. After the show got over, I became really depressed and even suicidal for several weeks. It took me a long time to recover from it.
the show is great because of animation, it has many complex themes and is so well written, the characters work so well. if i wanted to watch something with actors and deep meaning, it would be the good place (it is my favourite)
this episode is really my comfort episode. i think it shows the complexity of mother relationships. my mom isn’t nearly as bad as Beatrice but some of her own trauma did result in me having trauma as well. I resonate with Bojack here because at the end of the day, she’s still his mom. He can see how broken she is and has an opportunity to tell her how he feels yet he doesn’t. He still loves her and can never truly hate her. god i love this show
There’s so many details I didn’t notice before. When Beatrice throws up, she’s saying “you and I aren’t so different.” But then she’s interrupted by the facts of life, that they are, in fact, extremely different. She was a woman at this time (hence the symbolism of pregnancy), confined to uphold the social expectations imposed onto women in the early to mid 1900’s. On the other hand, he was free to live whatever life he wanted. I never noticed that before, but rewatching it broken down makes that stand out to me. Ik it’s just a show, but damn, even if it wasn’t intentional, it’s cool how you can interpret a scene so many different ways.
my mother have dementia, watching this episode made me cry for hours because she remembers the traumas she experienced, but not those whose present and around her.
I personally feel like Joseph’s words, “Your sickness has infected everything” was some kind of foretelling about how her own trauma would “infect” the other people in her life. I.E Generational Trauma
I can relate to Bojack, because my wicked stepfather treated me like burned dirt, because that is how he was raised and had no idea he was doing anything wrong. So, I search for ways to prevent evil history from repeating itself...which is far from easy.
Its so fucked up that the previous generation really did genuinely think you needed to beat kids, always force them to be subservient to authority, and that they weren't really people. But at the same time, I cannot imagine treating a kid in that way no matter what I was raised with... idk maybe if my upbringing had been even more cruel I would be too.
I little detail I noticed in this episode was during the hurdle scene Honey’s face is blacked out, not really blank or scratched out like Henrietta’s face, just in the dark
That audio mix at the end was so chilling. This is honestly my favorite episode in the series, next to Ruthie. I love the unique storytelling devices and twists in both
🏠As a child raised by a traumatized woman. These types of people in our lives are the definition of 'It explains your actions, but it will never excuse them.'😞
Someone once pointed out to me that in Beatrice's last line to Bojack--"it's so...delicious"--you can see her falter. The pause. The glance left (a classic tell). It's not her letting the peace of the moment sink in, it's her knowingly telling a lie as she doesn't know how ice cream tastes. Possibly trying to protect herself, and/or Bojack by extension, from just one bit of her trauma. Maybe both of them were trying to stop the cycle in that moment, albeit by pretending their reality is/was different.
I've cried twice during this show. After everything Beatrice had done, abusing and neglecting Bojack his whole life and then drugging Hollyhock to the point she OD'd, Bojack still has some sort of love for her. No matter how much he may hate her, he can't help but to comfort her when she needs him.
You can tell that he wants to connect with her in some way. And that final scene was probably the only time they connected. Like he wanted her to be happy and have at least one happy memory with him.
This episode is one of my all time favourite from show. Before I truly hated Beatrice but after this I really empathized with her and understood the trauma that traveled throughout generations. Thank you for explaining that in vast detail I always love ur reviews of the show
Excellent analysis! I never noticed that 3 generations had the same nervous tick. I makes sense, some things (including trauma) are passed down that cannot be truly explained away with genetics
You know a show is good when a 13 minute break down of one of the episodes makes you cry. Fantastic video as always, I'm so grateful you are keep doing these.
Beatrice reminds me of the stories my dad told me about his mom. I think it's helped me realize, like how Bojack will never see Beatrice's childhood or her reasons for treating him how she did, neither will any of us see the reasons someone has treated us the way they have. To us, it's just hurt. We never see our parents or grandparents as children like us growing up. And I still think Beatrice was terrible, as I think my dad's mother was terrible, but I can't help but feel bad for the hardships she faced. Worse things than I will ever have to endure.
It’s a good lesson, one of the many reasons I love this show so damn much. “Your trauma is not a justification to hurt others.” I don’t remember where I heard that, but I think this show echos it
"Times arrow" that quote is the single most memorable quote of the entire series for me. And this series as a whole hit me so hard when I first binged all 6 seasons straight. Simple yet powerful messages. Still can't get over how well made this show was
The shot of Joseph saying you don’t want to end up like your mother while her shadow shows up in this hellfire like landscape and you can hear a scream in the background is one of the most terrifying moments in the show. Ps can we talk about how after the lobotomy her mother was just a shadowy presence in her life?
The song that honey sings (and Beatrice dances to in s6e15) 'I will always think of you' is so sad when you think about how Beatrice had dementia and honey had a lobotomy. Her singing 'but memories they last' right before we see her as a shell of a person is so haunting. Something about honey and Beatrice hanging on to the idea that at least they have their memory, and both of them going on to lose it just makes me incredibly upset
These episodes genuinely helped me work through some generational trauma in my own life. I remember when Bea was introduced she reminded me so much of my mother; maybe not physically abusive but unsupportive and cold with unreasonably high expectations and the belief that her children “ruined her life”. I was born when my mom was still in high school and she always kind of blamed me for her unhappy marriage, her not having a better job, etc. She put this enormous weight on me to do something great to make having me worth what she gave up, an expectation I could never live up to even when they found out I was some kind of child prodigy. I got pushed so hard I crashed and burned, and it made my mother resent me even more. I spent a lot of my childhood thinking I was broken, and eventually morphed to hating my mother bc I felt she had broken me. I’m still not close with my mother, but after watching Bea and BoJack’s stories unfold it urged me to look deeper into my own family trauma. I found out my mother was taken in by a wealthier relative while her parents were struggling, who then refused to return her and spent her whole childhood telling her that her parents (and everyone else) hated her. Her wedding gift to my mother was my father’s police record, and when I was born she tried to convince my mother to sell me. The way my mother treated me still wasn’t right and it hurt me in ways I’ve still not recovered from, but learning these things and taking these steps have helped me understand that my mother was just another hurt, traumatized person who didn’t know better than to pass on that pain. It’s also strengthened my resolve to be a loving mother someday so I can break the cycle. Before this I’d insisted I’d never have kids despite desperately wanting to bc I was so scared of becoming my mother. I’m not scared anymore.
Face key that I figured out on my own Normal face: she remembers them clearly Blank face: She doesn’t remember what they look like. They were unimportant Scribbled faces: She doesn’t want to remember them. Her mothers face: This is the only one of its kind. Basically, she doesn’t want to remember her mother, but its not out of hate, it’s out of sadness and guilt.
The fact that this was simply a perception of Beatrice and how she views her mother as absent whether in mind or in presence (Often portrayed as a silhouette or a shadow) is pretty sad as well. Shows how she doesn't even know who her mother is anymore despite her advice being extremely prominent on how she treats others later on, also reflected by how she didn't let Henrietta even touch her baby because it's an extension to what advice her mother gave her.
time's arrow is my favourite episode, and I always know that when it comes to bojack horseman you have top tier content and commentary. your voice is really nice to listen to as well i guess what i'm trying to say is thank you for doing what you do and especially this episodes explanation
my favourite moment from this episode is when bojack asks if she can taste the icecream she hesitates. since from a young age it was instilled in her that sugar is to be avoided at all costs, she probably never tasted icecream for her entire life, so when bojack asks her to imagine the taste, she can't. the tone with which she says delicious suggests that upon coming to this realisation she feels a significant sense of dissapointment to herself and to her life that she went this far without doing something so simple.
I absolutely loved that they made all the extras faceless unless she had some sort of direct interaction with them. It’s realistic. When you remember things, you don’t remember exact details, only what’s relevant and important.
I realized that her Mom telling her not to ever love anyone the way she loved cracker jack really sat with her. She was never able to love horseman properly because she was taught not to.
What's also both great story-telling as well as incredibly upsetting is that throughout this episode, there are always small glimpses of Honey, but we never actually see her. We see her as a shadow when Joseph is chastising her for Beatrice getting scarlet fever, as well as when she gets a flashback to that moment again later on, we see her pop up briefly when Beatrice is talking to Butterscotch about her and how she "doesn't say much of anything anymore", when she has to have the dance with Corbin and we see Joseph pull Honey to his side, where the light completely obscures her so we can barely see her at all, to the point that most people wouldn't even notice she was there the first time watching, and lastly during the multiple cutaway flashbacks when Beatrice is smoking the cigarette in the long drag, where it shows Honey sitting at the piano and repeatedly playing the same note after she was lobotomized. Can you imagine how legitimately traumatizing it was for Beatrice her entire life to essentially still have her mother, but her mother is basically not her mother anymore, just an empty shell of a person wearing the skin of her mother. She essentially has to live in a home with a broken, empty, lifeless doll of a person and be reminded that before this, that person was her lively, funny and beautiful mother, now reduced to nothing but a fading shadow of her former self. Honey Sugarman deserved so much better.
That moment when you realize that, even though Beatrice confused Bojack with Henrietta, she recognized Hollyhock. She knew who Hollyhock was. From the first time she saw her, she knew that was Henrietta's baby.
This episode and how it handled generational trauma was really touching and sadly hit hard to home. My great grandmother lost her husband in WW2 and focused on the youngest of her three sons who was the only one looking like his father and after he died at age 2 of a lung infection she completely lost it, getting schizophrenia later on and had to move in with her sister who was supportive of her but didn't like my grandfather and his brother. My granduncle got aggressive pretty early and let his feelings out on him and began to get into trouble making his aunt even more abusive. My grandfather began to work at 11 to support the family and always had to do all himself with no figure to trust and learning how attachment can hurt due to his mother and her fate. He didn't want children for that reason and only did so because my grandmother wanted a child and wouldn't let go of that wish. She was the only person he let his guard down for. She was very headstrong and confident, something he found attractive. Despite her being a loving mother my grandfather gave his mentality on to my dad. To this day he was supportive of my brother and me but tried desperately to fix problems himself instead of reaching out for help. Its something I got quite often criticized for as well. Doing projects alone and over all wanting to do everything on my own. Today my grandmother suffers from dementia and my grandfather takes care of her yet constantly blaming her for his inability to cook because she didn't let him try when she was fully there. When my mom offered help he refused, still distrustful of her because she wouldn't do it the way grandma used to do it. It's so sad to see how grandma seems to be all that keeps my dad and my grandfather together
the sad part,......beatrice wasn't hallucinating like bojack thought, she never ate ice cream before in her life, but she knew bojack in his own way, was showing love to her, so they both played along
Something I've noticed about Honey Sugarman is that after the lobotomy, we never directly sees her, only in photos and that terrifying moment where we see Joseph bashing on her but it's only their shadows. And those shadows have two senses depending on who you're talking about. Joseph always put a smile on, he does narrow comments but they're never brought up because it's hidden behind that polite smile and joyful tone but once he knows he isn't seen to ruin his reputation, he's abusive, neglectful and blaming his mistakes on others. For Honey, it has double senses. She has never been the same after the surgery, in inability to raise Beatrice, she became the shadow of herself. It's also possible that the lobotomy caused too much brain damage or her mental health worsen over the years due to it and wasn't able to work either. So Joseph probably hid her from the world because he was ashamed of something she didn't even had a word on.
12:48 Generational trauma is a prime example of the Butterfly Effect. The simple act of a little girl’s doll being burned in a fireplace was like an earthquake felt through space & time.
I think this episode does something really beautiful. You’ve spent the entirety of the show rooting against Beatrice and thinking of her as the antagonist, but suddenly the show does this and with the flick of a button, they turn Beatrice into Bojack.
"Your sickness has infected everything."
What a great double meaning.
Not only did Beatrice's sickness infect everything, BoJack tried to burn everything. He tried to go down a number of times and never managed. I think that's part of why "the view from halfway down" hit so hard. BoJack spent so much time trying to numb out from his life, even outright attempting suicide a number of times in the show. He tried to get rid of the sickness by destroying everything, until he learns to just. Get help with his sickness.
You also gotta love how after Joseph says this line Beatrice says "but not my baby" and Joseph replies:
"Yes, especially your baby."
This fucking show, man--.
whoa nice catch
@@princessaur Oh shit! This show...
@@princessaur screaming
I always thought that the reason why Henrietta and the other servants who took her stuff were scratched because she so badly did not want to remember them. While those with blank faces were like that because she didn't really care about them.
Precisely. When you're writing something, what do you do when you make a mistake? You scratch it out.
@@IsisDragonfly yeah, that seemed to go over a lot of peoples heads though, they shouldve added some blurring and distortion to the faces for further ambiguity
Oh damn. You two are precisely right 😭
@Emily Bailey agreed
@Emily Bailey It's probably a combination. She can't remember these peoples' faces but she remembers how she felt about them. You ever see a teenager's yearbook? They scribble over people they hate.
The ending to that episode gets me everytime where bojack can tell her exactly what he's felt for half a lifetime it all just fades away.
I C U
It almost feels simbolic that he's trying to end the cycle of abuse. He could tell her off or leave, but he leaves her with a beautiful scene. Even if Bojack couldn't end the cycle, he kinda became aware of it and wasn't always as bad
@@alexschneider1667 and holloyhawk was able to potentially escape it
The part where he asks her about the ice cream made me cry so much
@@alexverdana2435 it's so, delicious.
It makes it so hard hating Beatrice on the rewatch because she’s just as damaged as Bojack is.
Yeah, when I did a rewatch, every time Beatrice said nasty things it just made me feel sad. The way she delivers some of her nasty comments too, there's a sense of agony and sadness behind it.
Only unlike Beatrice, BoJack worked really hard to better himself.
I mean I hate bojack as well,,,
Pretty much every interaction with beatrice shows that she was trying very much to do the best she could with the damaged tools she had. By the end of the show i coudnt see beatrice as a bad person. Just a person stuck with her own history and her own bad choices and unable to escape. She tries to stop others from becoming her but doesnt know how to do it in a healthy way because she was never instilled with healthy coping mechanisms.
@Mia A Herrera I wasn't mad at Bojack when he tormented Beatrice with her doll. It was correct of Hollyhook to have a problem with Bojack doing that and I reallly pitied Beatrice in that moment but I couldn't be mad at Bojack.
She never had ice cream. When she said it was delicious, trying desperately to connect with her son... Priceless.
Kinda sad to we all know she really did love BoJack but she didn’t want to show any weakness at all and didn’t want to end up like her mother in a way she was
I think her mom allowed her to have it once, but I can’t remember what episode or if she actually ate it
@@yeah_i_likeCartoons nope. She said suger on an icecube was an appropriate "girls snack"
@@miloselfesteem2326 *sugar on a lemon
@@mgthebee7043 u want a cookie 😆
I loved that mashup ending of all those quotes, and I never noticed how when Joseph tells a young Beatrice that "your sickness has contaminated everything" could have a deeper meaning. Her actions and how she never dealt with her trauma and passed it down to others, really did spread. Her sickness truly did contaminate everything, or in this case, everyone
And Joseph should be the one to talk. His sickness contaminated everything too. And unlike Beatrice or Bojack, he spread his sickness throughout decades just because he didn't want to have to do something difficult or outside his narrow scope of what was proper.
The "your sickness has contaminated everything" is also a trauma that was passed onto Bojack from Beatrice. He also believed that his inner "sickness" would eventually destroy everything he touched. I think there was an episode in which he said so himself. And the tar that consumes everything in The View from Halfway Down is also a symbol of the "sickness". The Horseman family had internalized this message that they were sick and that everything that they touched would get contaminated as well.
Especially her baby
@@ScorpionViper1001 yeah i feel like a lot of his actions and words were sort of "comical" like when he says the thing about not being able to empathize, but the sheer evil-ness of his character, especially towards the women in his own family is really telling. im happy hollyhock grew up with healthy male figures, and got away from bojack in the end
@@ScorpionViper1001
It kinda makes me morbidly curious to know where Joseph got his "sickness" as well along the Sugarman line (as well as Butterscotch's), as well as how he met and fell in love with Honey, who's like his free-spirited opposite. Considering he was born in the early 1900s, there's probably plenty of experiences that could've made him the eventual jerk that we see from Beatrice's perspective... 0_0
One thing I noticed from this episode is when she’s recalling all of her trauma and she smokes all of her cigarette at once is what Bojack is referring to in “Free Churro” when he says “...one time she smoked a whole cigarette in one long drag. Yeah. I watched her do it.”
And then the way he proceeded to do it himself when he went to rehab! Omg this show
@@dianaaleman58 yeahhhh
Thank you for telling us about this! I'm not used to a cartoon I really have to WATCH the body language of, as odd as it may seem, but I appreciatively say they spoiled us so!
"Truly, a remarkable woman."
6:05
Pretty crazy that the preponderance of toxicity in this show is traceable back to the horrors of war. People will lament the death tolls without considering the multi-generational impact of those events.
underrated comment
True, but human history has always contained war. So I'm not sure it helps much to trace it back, and back, and back
@@llIlIlllII not at all, I mean yeah violence has always been around, but war it's something that started when humans discovered agriculture , when the societys started to be a thing
Russia feels it the worst because you can notice the aftershocks of the war in a population line graph
@@oscarvalencia8430 you could argue that "history" didnt begin until society
I hate that every time Bojack was nominated for an Emmy it was snubbed
Emmies are a mafia
@The Great MalJabroni Wait actually?
It's just a bunch of rich assholes trying to tell everyone else what's good or bad. Decide for yourself.
@@equinox6690 Yup. A lot of good animated shows get snubbed at the Emmys. But "Camp Lazlo" has three for some reason.
@@smilingearth5181 It was pretty good, but from what I hear, not nearly as good as Bojack.
It's so weird how important pancakes are to the plot. Beatrice wasn't allowed pancakes because she was a girl, "The horse from horsin around" was making pancakes for Sara Lynn before the "don't stop dancing" speech, Todd tells the story of making pancakes for BoJack on their first morning, BoJack makes pancakes for Sara Lynn when she moves in. There's quite a lot of
Welllll.... she isn’t allowed to eat ice cream, and Todd made waffles...
@@thebatnextdoor6138 In the Old Sugarman Place we see Beatrice and Honey making pancakes, Honey tells Beatrice she can smell the pancakes but not eat them since it's "father's breakfast", and she's told she can't have ice cream either later on in the same scene. And Todd had actually made hash-browns, but up until he's being rescued from the improve ship Bojack and Todd both remember them as pancakes originally.
When they're all at the table n "view from halfway down" one of them is eating pancakes
Yes, pancakes are a motif, but they’re not directly relevant to the plot. It could’ve been any other food, and the story would remain completely unchanged.
You keep chasing that English teacher dream, though.
Was that why she got triggered in the nursing home?
I am pretty sure Beatrice honestly thought she was helping Henrietta and Hollyhock. Henrietta was able to become a nurse and Hollyhock was adopted by a large, loving family. By this point Butterscotch was going no where and I am pretty sure Bojack was already becoming an alcoholic, as seen from his flashback in another episode. Beatrice saved Henrietta and Hollyhock from the poison in her life.
In some ways, it's a twisted mirror of Joseph's actions as well, believing he's helping but in fact just breaking everyone around him. Except Joseph never really has the self-awareness of Bojack or even Beatrice to know when he's destroying someone.
@@ScorpionViper1001 Joseph was also someone who came from money and never really had to face any consequences for his actions.
I also just realized something too... Hollyhock has Beatrice's diamond shaped beauty mark... despite not being related to her by blood. So shouldn't Hollyhock have had the triangle or stripe that Butterscotch has?
@@francisharkins Pretty sure that was intentional. This show has amazing attention to detail. When they first meet Butterscotch tells Beatrice she reminds him of his mother because of the diamond marking. Latter on when Beatrice is talking to Henrietta about the pregnancy she tells her "Let me guess, he told you you looked just like his mother." and she rolls her eyes. Meaning she believes the diamond thing he told her was a lie and he said that just to get to sleep with her. But since Hollyhock has the same marking I assume it was probably true and that's where she got it from. Some genes will skip one generation. For example. I look nothing like my parents or my siblings. To the point that I thought I was adopted when I was a kid. But when you look at old pictures of my grandmother on the dad's side from when she was younger I'm like a carbon copy of hers. It's kind of scary. Genetics are very interesting. Sorry for the long comment.
@@Misa.misato On the contrary, thank you.
I still will never get over will arnett saying “ daddy wouldn’t like that would he “.
SAME LMFAO
oh god the daddy issues
LMFAOOOOO
Gives me such arrested development vibes and I LOVE it
I thought it was just me
That mashup of quotes while the doll burns was so effective! Since it's a gif it almost looks like the doll is breathing while burning. A great metaphor for Beatrice's life.
Why did have to point that out 😭
Yeah with its head...
It was super cool but I think it's funny how in the middle of all these important quotes Beatrice tells Bojack to sing the lollipop song
I never noticed the nervous tick. I love all the small things you miss in this show. Like how Beatrice's memories of talking to Corbin in the park got more colorful after she heard him speak his mind? As soon as he gives her a taste of freedom from a life she hated, her world literally brightened. Never noticed it. Just read it in a comment on another Cellos video (I think).
A lot of characters in the show do it, but I didn't think about it until Cello mentioned it.
@@ElleLeNue Yeah, same. After watching a bit I noticed Diane doing it. I wonder why the animator's went with it. Cool detail in any case though.
@@pitchthewoo definitely. I have to go back and watch the show to see if there's anything else like that
Oh fuck
The ending of that episode always hits me. The fact that Beatrice seems at a lost of words when describing the ice cream... something that she might have never tasted... It just breaks me. She can't live the life she wished for, it's too late, so she can only dream what it could've been like. Her dementia only makes it harder for her to get a clear picture of that life. Her trauma, repeating itself in her head over and over again. It's impossible not to feel bad for her.
Great video! I always like your analysis, they make me see a lot of things I couldn't even imagine before. Hope you have a good day.
If I recall, she did get to taste ice cream once when her mother had a breakdown at a celebration
@@MillyKKitty Oh, I didn't remember that... Well, it's still sad, isn't it?
Yup, 4.2 she get a freeze pop, but it’s possible she passed that down to bojack as a kid because remember he asked for an ice cream in 1.1 when he’s trying to write his memoir, so maybe he wasn’t allowed to have them as a child, either. It wasn’t till he was out of the house he started eating uncontrollably, possibly because his food was always monitored.
Milly KKitty well it was a popsicle
@Chris Joshua Perez How do we know he knows this? Or are you saying he only knew about the ice cream part. Because I highly doubt she would ever let herself be vulnerable enough to explain her trauma to him
I just wanted to point out that when Beatrice and Corbin are having their date, the background's color contrast starts to become more brighter and colorful as Beatrice is seeing Corbin in a "new light". When they shared the same ideology he literally brightened her life for that one moment.
Actually made me wanna know what made corbin and bea broke away, like they talked after she kissed butterscotch , like shouldnt rhere be a bit conflict? A ma who looks dangerously free and another man engaged but respects the intentions to have free tought and speech to new ideas(and ice cream making)
Two qualities she seeked for so long after handling so many abuse from her father so wont there be a little competition?
@@inazuma2332 I’m a year late but I think she got pregnant after that night with Butterscotch, and that’s why she threw up on Corbin
@@inazuma2332her getting pregnant basically prevented her from backtracking and giving the goat a chance
Joseph saying "Your sickness has infected everything" is such great writing because, as Johnny just spent 13 minutes explaining, it was HIS sickness that infected everyone.
She had ice cream one time, when her mother went insane before she was lobotomized. It was probably a painful memory but she chose to overlook that to connect with bojack. So much depth in this show.
I'm pretty sure she was about to taste it but then she got dragged away and forced to drive by Honey.
@@jovindsouza3407 oh no she did taste it, sadly its not ice cream, its a freeze pop stick thing thats probably made more from fruit juice freezed rather than sugar milk and cream like ice cream which ig is much healthier. Her mom and dad are both stating ice cream to be a "boys only snack" and would make her fat when "women shoyld be skinny" mann the 1940s were so different
I loved that last ice cream comment. The writing and voice acting are just perfect. The small stop between "It's so...delicious" makes me think that with all the trauma regarding weight loss she may never have actually tasted ice cream. So she's just commenting based on what other people have told her about ice cream. One thing about this are the lost opportunities in her old age to enjoy things she might have actually wanted to enjoy. Another thing is that instead of a snarky comment she actually says something nice to Bojack, even if the topic is something that is usually something she is very touchy about. In a way that is a perfect redemption arc.
I wouldn’t say redeemed but she was definitely more humanized
That part made me cry
I honestly think it was a great for her to go out as a character. Her and Bojack just having a conversation and him comforting her in the best way he can.
I cut off contact with my mother in 2016. She was sexually abused all through her life and kept sexual abusers all in our home, and abused me too. Beatrice is the one character that helps me find empathy for her. This tremendously helped me bring some great points about deep generational trauma from my whole family into therapy. Bojack definitely should have been nominated... Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
im so fucking sorry you went through that, youre so brave though!!!! props to you
Kinda relate you. My mother was sexually abused by his brother, so do I, but the thing is I seek for help. It's so fking horrible but it works for me. I wish you the best ♡ (sorry for my english, is not my mother tonge language)
How are you guys now? You are OK now right?
are you guys okay now? and how are you doing from that trauma did you seek help?
that's super tough to hear. For me, my grandma had a really hard life, with internalized homophobia, sexism, and seeing her mother and sibling die at a young age. But my mom was the golden child of her family. She ended up giving me a far worse childhood than she had, with my abusive grandmother as my caretaker. I have some sympathy for my grandma, but not for my mom. Neither of their circumstances excused their actions though. ie: my grandfather was sent to a labor camp and survived, but is not abusive. Here's to breaking generational curses.
12:04 The funny thing is, Bojack's attempt to reverse times arrow ultimately failed as Beatrice realised she was at the Care home. Why? *She had never tasted ice cream, she wasnt allowed to.*
She had ice cream when honey went off at that party place
Idk what it’s called deadass but I remember she asked honey if she could have ice cream and then honey allowed her to
@@cassytrash4774 she was about to taste it, but Honey dragged her away and made her drive
@@cassytrash4774 well it was a popsicle
Damn.
I like how Creamerman is idealized in her mind during their second date with the world getting brighter and his eyes becoming more beautiful. I bet he wasn’t as appealing as Beatrice made him seem but was rather a representation of a “different life” Beatrice imagined she could have had. In other words, he’s her Charlotte. She, like Bojack, blames others for her unhappiness and tells herself that if she had made one or two decisions differently her life would have been wonderful. Bojack tells himself if he had just moved away with Charlotte he would be happy and Beatrice tells herself if she had just married Corbin Creamerman she would be happy. But in either case they would have both probably been just as miserable because ultimately they’re responsible for their own happiness
I love the creative use of animation to portray Beatrice's dementia throughout the episode, it's so unique and cleverly done. It's episodes like these that make BoJack Horseman one of, if not the, best animated series of all times as it uses its form of an animated series to its strengths to complement and add more layers to the narrative that you otherwise couldn't do in a live action series.
I could go as far to say it’s one of the best shows of all time period I put it in the same league as breaking bad or sopranos it’s an amazing and tragic show
Daniel Jackson Oh yeah, definitely. Probably in my top 5 of all time. But in the genre of animation it stands out above the rest.
@@danieljackson2496 Same, I feel like it's more comparable to Breaking Bad and Mad Men than animated shows such as Rick and Morty.
@@freesuckerMCR I hate that comparison Rick and Morty is a good show as well but I think Bojack horseman is better just because its soo damn real set in a animated world.
@@freesuckerMCR second this, Bojack and Don Draper have a lot of aspects in common, and the shows both have a lot of attention to detail. Haven't seen Breaking Bad yet, to my shame.
This episode fucked me up so bad. Nice video.
Ayy thanks dude. I’ve really enjoyed your comeback tour
@@Amandaisherejpg who
@@meco7956 the One that crawIs
@@Amandaisherejpg thats not a name bessie
@@meco7956 She saw you. Be careful. Her arms are still alive
The way that the silhouette in which honey is drawn anytime she is shown in the episode is the exact position of where she is sitting in front of the piano after Beatrice is reintroduced to her after the lobotomy in the old Sugarman place. That seems to have been the last “ memory “ of honey in beatrices dementia riddled mind.
And the one where joseph burns her doll there’s fire behind him and his shadow looks like the devil.
Personally, I think that Beatrice did the right thing by encouraging Hollyhock’s adoption due to the circumstances that Henrietta was dealing with.
I think that perhaps the sentiment was right, but she still completely coerced Henrietta and forced her into a decision she wasn’t comfortable with
Johnny 2 Cellos Good point. There was just no easy answer to that situation was there?
@@FilmmakeroftheFuture yep. Either keep the baby and become a miserable single mother or give it away and stay miserable
The issue is, when coersion or influence is applied to deeply personal, emotional, and one of the most intensity physically overwhelming situations like this, the objective "right" does not change the way it would have traumatized Henrietta. Much like Beatrice's father might have been "right" (although we know now toys and betting exposed to scarlet fever didn't pose a threat), it was he bond to the doll that was what mattered to her.
But, just like with her father, when Beatrice took the reins in that situation, she removed the agency of someone young, vulnerable, and in no state of mind to be cool and collected about what the future would look like. Instead, the wife of the man that put her in such a scary, unpredictable, and nuanced situation told her how her life would look and she could very likely look at that, and in many way it truly was, removing Henrietta's agency. Worse, her agency to make an informed, thought out, processed choice about something that changed her body, released a slew of hormones at birth designed to bond her to the baby going haywire when watching Hollyhock taken away, and feeling powerless in her most vulnerable moment. Objectively, Henrietta was so much better off never having the illegitimate child of a wealthy, married man - but more than anything, she should have had complete say over what to do, and be allowed to ask questions and speak up without being steered by the people that had everything to gain by making "her mistake" disappear. This, leaving Henrietta alone and with nothing and no one after having gone through it all, no "good thing," no silver lining to a bad situation in the form of her own family and love if she had decided to have her daughter and make her own way, no direction, ambition, or plan she had been able to choose while making a decision for herself to not keep a pregnancy or baby. Just... empty.
We don't know much about how Henrietta dealt with that deep trauma, the fruition of a metaphor of a burning babydoll that would do more harm than good, of Beatrice' projection of her regrets and 'coulda shoulda' onto a vulnerable girl in crises, but we do know what happens when young women and girls are pushed or forced outright into a choice they didn't get to make in either direction, *and it isn't good.*
Amazing illustration of not just generational trauma, but trauma as a sickness which can absolutely spread - sealed with her father's foreshadowing statement.
it shows the difficult decisions women have to make just to get by. keep the baby and be dirt poor and never pursue your schooling/ career or give it up, deal with the trauma and build some sort of life for yourself
the fact that one of the smartest, well written shows i've ever seen is disguised as a funny horse cartoon is genius. bojack horseman really is an absolute masterpiece.
I hate how it had to end early. Netflix cancels everything 🤦🏾
Great video (again)! I also like how Beatrice's "NO!" when her father burns her baby doll echoes the "NO!" she screamed earlier in the season when Bojack threw her doll off his deck.
Even before knowing about the childhood doll I about died at her scream at BoJack throwing that doll.
Anyone else noticed how the 3 Sugarman family members all lived the end of their lives with something to do with their minds/brain? Beatrice ends up getting dementia, Crackerjack gets shot in the head while in war, and Honey ends up getting lobotomized because of Joseph's decision to have it done.
The fact that these writers can make me give an iota about one of the most despicable, undefendable characters in television is truly amazing.
Thank you
I would love a Ruthie breakdown.
Too late, I already had one.
Gotta do “The Showstopper” from season 5. Brilliant episode that shows Bojack at one of his lowest of lows and the don’t stop dancing music moment
Yesssssss
Definitely! Easily one of the best episodes in the series, the way everything blends between his TV show and reality hooked me in from the very start.
@@trajer1535 Reminds me of Birdman a lot
Favorite episode right there 😁
he did! and it was a great analisis.
(it possibly was posted after you comented)
maybe check it out, it has such a great explanation for many things
I think Beatrice's memories being out of sequence made the most sense in the episode. People with dementia usually only remember bits and pieces of memories while others they might remember something things like it was yesterday. Plus, people that were consistent, important, and/or constant in their lives are more likely to be remembered than those that were like the equivalent of NPCs that made no impact on their lives. So I don't wholeheartedly agree with the notion that she's an unreliable narrator.
In my understanding, being an unreliable narrator doesn't necessarily mean that their perspective doesn't make sense, but rather that their recounting is notably removed from others' experience of reality. I believe that it makes perfect sense within the context of dementia, but within the context of reality the way that the majority of people experience it, and perhaps even the way she herself experienced it, we can't rely on her testimony to tell us what really happened.
And the thing is, this show depicts her background the way great writing ought to: it just presents it, plain and simple. It doesn't try to excuse her behavior, and doesn't try to demonize her either. In fact, if you watch closely, you realize that not once does anyone try to "explain away" Beatrice's mistreatment of BoJack--and he doesn't realize that people get on him for acting down to her solely because, in those moments, he's being a vindictive asshole.
I just noticed the detail that a lot of things are misspelled in Beatrice's memory, the EXIT door reads "XITE" and the Grand Hotel is written like "GRNAD HOTEL" further demonstrating how damaged Beatrice's memory is and how we only see the events the way she sees them...
3:58
I didn't catch this before, but in another video, someone pointed out how he throws away a cigarette, but shattering glass is heard instead, showing how details of her memory are often in conflict. This show goes so deep, I swear...
I feel like it was a missed opportunity for Beatrice to not meet with Corbin Creamerman when she was in the nursing home.
It could’ve made a great parralel to bojack’s relationship with Charlotte, as “the one that got away”, characters who could’ve of made broken people feel loved and cared for.
I've mostly only listened to this video but have watched every Bojack Horseman episode and I don't understand what you're referring to. Was Corbin Creamerman in the same nursing home as Beatrice? In the first one of the second one?
@@camelopardalis84 No he wasn't but Sese RedDead is saying that the writers easily could have and maybe should have put him there and have Beatrice meet him again as a way for that particular relationship to develop/find closure.
was actually surprised that we didnt see him again after only like one scene of him
@@narex45635 Ah, okay.
Imaru Lewis How?
By far my favorite episodes are "Times Arrow" and "The Old Sugarman Place". The damage Beatrice experienced and how well you explain the traumatic events and subsequent generational trickle down is hauntingly beautiful. I feel most people can in some ways identify with their own lives and family disfunctions. Thank you for yet another fantastic video. Love your face!
Totally agreed. Time’s Arrow and The Old Sugarman Place are so goddamn awesome and wonderful and they make me think about different perspectives that bad people might have and how they’re affected by important events.
This episode makes me think about my old abusive stepmom, and what could possibly had led her to her impatient and rude feelings and statements.
The Old Sugarman Place features one of my favorite scenes in the series, Eddie grabbing Bojack and flying into the air with him, and when they fall, the piano drop into the lake gives me chills every time, along with Eddie’s following statements.
2 things I wanna mention
1. I think that one of Beatrice's last moments was trying to he nice, she didn't chastise Bojack for bringing up ice cream when she never had any as a kid, she just humors him, trying to make him feel better
2. Bojack mentioned once that he saw Beatrice take out an entire cigarette in a single drag, in this episode, we see she does exactly that while thinking about all the stuff she's been through
Isn’t it especially sad that Beatrice went out of her way to avoid forming healthy, loving bonds with anyone in her life because of the trauma she experienced living with her lobotomized mother, but she ultimately formed dementia and became as helpless and mentally impaired as she always feared? And died alone.
I feel like Free Churro is an excellent bookend to this and the Old Sugarman Place.
I’m so glad you’re still making Bojack videos
CAN'T STOP WON'T STOP (until I'm out of things to say)
@@Johnny2Cellos You better breakdown "The Showstopper" or you will join Shady Doorags offline!
@@Johnny2Cellos PLEASE DON'T STOP
Nice catch on the nervous tick Johnny, I’ve watched the series countless times and didn’t catch it
“i see you... icu she meant the icu... she was reading the sign”
It saddens me how many children are bought into the world with the parents so unconcerned about bring them up with love. It's a perpetual cycle.
09:25 - Yes it is horrible that Joseph still expects Honey to be a mother after being *lobotomized*. But you gotta remember that at the time this was perceived to be a valid medical treatment, and while some people understood that it left people an husk of their old selves, I very much doubt that Joseph realized how much damage he was causing. That's one of the big tragedies here -- most of Joseph's errors are not due to evil, but due to ignorance. So the people he hurt don't even get a clear villain against whom the can lash out. Hell, he even gave Crackerjack a good job so his daughter would enjoy a decent lifestyle -- a lesser man would have cut her loose after she eloped.
Although you could argue that Joseph mainly give Butterscotch a high paying job because if his precious daughter ended up in poverty it would have reflected badly on him and made it appear as if he failed as a parent. Perhaps he helped Butterscotch out not because of his own kindness but more to avoid any potential embarrassment.
i think you mean joseph gave a job to butterscotch, beatrice's husband rather than crackerjack, her brother who died in WW2
@@anthares96 Fixed it.
while true, i think his comment about 'not understanding women's emotions, and i will not learn' is pretty indicative of him. ignorance, willful ignorance in joseph's case, is still Not Good. it's what he thought would help, to be sure, but ultimately, he could have stepped up, learned, and became better.
What is lobotomy? It sound horrible but I don’t really understand what it is
The way you put “why I have half a mind” and “ you wouldn’t want to end up like you’re mother” over this burning baby doll turkey shows what Beatrice felt like not just in her childhood but her entire life. Always burning
Eda's voice actress keeps playing traumatized characters doesn't she?
Honestly, she does a great job.
She's a wonderful voice actress!
When Bojack asks her if she can taste the ice cream, she hesitates, searching for a word to describe it then just goes for a generic "delicious." - Because she was never allowed to have ice cream.
Yeah. But the fact he tries to make her happy, not even knowing she wasn't allowed to have ice cream, shows that he wants her to have some kind of peace.
But you'll notice he doesn't really care until she calls out to him by name. He couldn't just leave her alone like that. So giving her a happy mental image is likely the best way he could leave her.
Personally I really liked the subtle difference between people she simply forgot having no face and people she INTENTIONALLY forgot having scratched out faces.
This was quite a powerful episode overall.
This show's writing is so, so criminally underrated. Sometimes i just kinda wish they didn't go the adult animation way just to reach more people, i personally love it but its always the main stopper when i try to get people into it.
interesting because when i try to get other people into it, they say it’s too depressing. nothing about animation
@@sushimomo6384 This show is filled with strong portrayal of depression, generational trauma and various forms of abuse.
It's understandable that some people may not be interested in it because it's too depressing. The show is incredible. But at the same time, some of the themes can be mentally triggering and disturbing to the ones suffering from similar forms of trauma.
After the show got over, I became really depressed and even suicidal for several weeks. It took me a long time to recover from it.
the show is great because of animation, it has many complex themes and is so well written, the characters work so well. if i wanted to watch something with actors and deep meaning, it would be the good place (it is my favourite)
"Nobody's ever nice to me; why should I be nice?"
this episode is really my comfort episode. i think it shows the complexity of mother relationships. my mom isn’t nearly as bad as Beatrice but some of her own trauma did result in me having trauma as well. I resonate with Bojack here because at the end of the day, she’s still his mom. He can see how broken she is and has an opportunity to tell her how he feels yet he doesn’t. He still loves her and can never truly hate her. god i love this show
This is your comfort episode??!! Bro are you okay my god!
There’s so many details I didn’t notice before.
When Beatrice throws up, she’s saying “you and I aren’t so different.” But then she’s interrupted by the facts of life, that they are, in fact, extremely different. She was a woman at this time (hence the symbolism of pregnancy), confined to uphold the social expectations imposed onto women in the early to mid 1900’s. On the other hand, he was free to live whatever life he wanted. I never noticed that before, but rewatching it broken down makes that stand out to me. Ik it’s just a show, but damn, even if it wasn’t intentional, it’s cool how you can interpret a scene so many different ways.
my mother have dementia, watching this episode made me cry for hours because she remembers the traumas she experienced, but not those whose present and around her.
I personally feel like Joseph’s words, “Your sickness has infected everything” was some kind of foretelling about how her own trauma would “infect” the other people in her life. I.E Generational Trauma
I can relate to Bojack, because my wicked stepfather treated me like burned dirt, because that is how he was raised and had no idea he was doing anything wrong. So, I search for ways to prevent evil history from repeating itself...which is far from easy.
Its so fucked up that the previous generation really did genuinely think you needed to beat kids, always force them to be subservient to authority, and that they weren't really people. But at the same time, I cannot imagine treating a kid in that way no matter what I was raised with... idk maybe if my upbringing had been even more cruel I would be too.
I little detail I noticed in this episode was during the hurdle scene Honey’s face is blacked out, not really blank or scratched out like Henrietta’s face, just in the dark
That audio mix at the end was so chilling. This is honestly my favorite episode in the series, next to Ruthie. I love the unique storytelling devices and twists in both
When Bojack tells her that she's eating ice cream, consider Beatrice potentially never had ice cream her whole life.
Does this make up for anything Beatrice did? Of course not, it just puts it into perspective.
🏠As a child raised by a traumatized woman. These types of people in our lives are the definition of 'It explains your actions, but it will never excuse them.'😞
Someone once pointed out to me that in Beatrice's last line to Bojack--"it's so...delicious"--you can see her falter. The pause. The glance left (a classic tell). It's not her letting the peace of the moment sink in, it's her knowingly telling a lie as she doesn't know how ice cream tastes. Possibly trying to protect herself, and/or Bojack by extension, from just one bit of her trauma. Maybe both of them were trying to stop the cycle in that moment, albeit by pretending their reality is/was different.
I've cried twice during this show. After everything Beatrice had done, abusing and neglecting Bojack his whole life and then drugging Hollyhock to the point she OD'd, Bojack still has some sort of love for her. No matter how much he may hate her, he can't help but to comfort her when she needs him.
You can tell that he wants to connect with her in some way. And that final scene was probably the only time they connected. Like he wanted her to be happy and have at least one happy memory with him.
This episode is one of my all time favourite from show. Before I truly hated Beatrice but after this I really empathized with her and understood the trauma that traveled throughout generations. Thank you for explaining that in vast detail I always love ur reviews of the show
My grandmother has dementia (probably genetic) and although it hasn't reached the point of not recognising people yet, it can still be terrifying.
Holy crap. That sound bit you made at the end was incredibly effective. Chills, mate, chills!
This episode of you from halfway down and the old Sugarman place are my favorite episodes
Excellent analysis! I never noticed that 3 generations had the same nervous tick. I makes sense, some things (including trauma) are passed down that cannot be truly explained away with genetics
Yes! I’m a simple gal. I see Johnny post, I click. I see that it’s Bojack, I click faster.
You know a show is good when a 13 minute break down of one of the episodes makes you cry. Fantastic video as always, I'm so grateful you are keep doing these.
That collage of quotes at the end was chilling but effective.
Beatrice reminds me of the stories my dad told me about his mom. I think it's helped me realize, like how Bojack will never see Beatrice's childhood or her reasons for treating him how she did, neither will any of us see the reasons someone has treated us the way they have. To us, it's just hurt. We never see our parents or grandparents as children like us growing up. And I still think Beatrice was terrible, as I think my dad's mother was terrible, but I can't help but feel bad for the hardships she faced. Worse things than I will ever have to endure.
It’s a good lesson, one of the many reasons I love this show so damn much. “Your trauma is not a justification to hurt others.” I don’t remember where I heard that, but I think this show echos it
I love times arrow it's one of the best and emotional bojack horseman episodes of all time
The thumbnails for these episodes are amazing. Love the minimalistic designs
Words can not explain how much I have been waiting for this.
Trauma not transformed is often transferred
"Times arrow" that quote is the single most memorable quote of the entire series for me. And this series as a whole hit me so hard when I first binged all 6 seasons straight. Simple yet powerful messages. Still can't get over how well made this show was
The shot of Joseph saying you don’t want to end up like your mother while her shadow shows up in this hellfire like landscape and you can hear a scream in the background is one of the most terrifying moments in the show.
Ps can we talk about how after the lobotomy her mother was just a shadowy presence in her life?
The song that honey sings (and Beatrice dances to in s6e15) 'I will always think of you' is so sad when you think about how Beatrice had dementia and honey had a lobotomy. Her singing 'but memories they last' right before we see her as a shell of a person is so haunting. Something about honey and Beatrice hanging on to the idea that at least they have their memory, and both of them going on to lose it just makes me incredibly upset
Her world literally got brighter when she connected with Creamerman.. wow it took me a while to notice that
Ice Cream was the last "happy" memory of Honey Sugerman.
These episodes genuinely helped me work through some generational trauma in my own life.
I remember when Bea was introduced she reminded me so much of my mother; maybe not physically abusive but unsupportive and cold with unreasonably high expectations and the belief that her children “ruined her life”. I was born when my mom was still in high school and she always kind of blamed me for her unhappy marriage, her not having a better job, etc. She put this enormous weight on me to do something great to make having me worth what she gave up, an expectation I could never live up to even when they found out I was some kind of child prodigy. I got pushed so hard I crashed and burned, and it made my mother resent me even more. I spent a lot of my childhood thinking I was broken, and eventually morphed to hating my mother bc I felt she had broken me.
I’m still not close with my mother, but after watching Bea and BoJack’s stories unfold it urged me to look deeper into my own family trauma. I found out my mother was taken in by a wealthier relative while her parents were struggling, who then refused to return her and spent her whole childhood telling her that her parents (and everyone else) hated her. Her wedding gift to my mother was my father’s police record, and when I was born she tried to convince my mother to sell me.
The way my mother treated me still wasn’t right and it hurt me in ways I’ve still not recovered from, but learning these things and taking these steps have helped me understand that my mother was just another hurt, traumatized person who didn’t know better than to pass on that pain. It’s also strengthened my resolve to be a loving mother someday so I can break the cycle. Before this I’d insisted I’d never have kids despite desperately wanting to bc I was so scared of becoming my mother. I’m not scared anymore.
Face key that I figured out on my own
Normal face: she remembers them clearly
Blank face: She doesn’t remember what they look like. They were unimportant
Scribbled faces: She doesn’t want to remember them.
Her mothers face: This is the only one of its kind. Basically, she doesn’t want to remember her mother, but its not out of hate, it’s out of sadness and guilt.
The fact that this was simply a perception of Beatrice and how she views her mother as absent whether in mind or in presence (Often portrayed as a silhouette or a shadow) is pretty sad as well. Shows how she doesn't even know who her mother is anymore despite her advice being extremely prominent on how she treats others later on, also reflected by how she didn't let Henrietta even touch her baby because it's an extension to what advice her mother gave her.
time's arrow is my favourite episode, and I always know that when it comes to bojack horseman you have top tier content and commentary. your voice is really nice to listen to as well
i guess what i'm trying to say is thank you for doing what you do and especially this episodes explanation
my favourite moment from this episode is when bojack asks if she can taste the icecream she hesitates. since from a young age it was instilled in her that sugar is to be avoided at all costs, she probably never tasted icecream for her entire life, so when bojack asks her to imagine the taste, she can't. the tone with which she says delicious suggests that upon coming to this realisation she feels a significant sense of dissapointment to herself and to her life that she went this far without doing something so simple.
I absolutely loved that they made all the extras faceless unless she had some sort of direct interaction with them. It’s realistic. When you remember things, you don’t remember exact details, only what’s relevant and important.
I realized that her Mom telling her not to ever love anyone the way she loved cracker jack really sat with her. She was never able to love horseman properly because she was taught not to.
Ur script writing and choreography of placing scenes over what parts of ur script is soo good. Talent 100.
That scene at 12:49 was so good
When Beatrice changed her perspective of creamerman, the animation turned more colorful other than dull and grey
What's also both great story-telling as well as incredibly upsetting is that throughout this episode, there are always small glimpses of Honey, but we never actually see her.
We see her as a shadow when Joseph is chastising her for Beatrice getting scarlet fever, as well as when she gets a flashback to that moment again later on, we see her pop up briefly when Beatrice is talking to Butterscotch about her and how she "doesn't say much of anything anymore", when she has to have the dance with Corbin and we see Joseph pull Honey to his side, where the light completely obscures her so we can barely see her at all, to the point that most people wouldn't even notice she was there the first time watching, and lastly during the multiple cutaway flashbacks when Beatrice is smoking the cigarette in the long drag, where it shows Honey sitting at the piano and repeatedly playing the same note after she was lobotomized.
Can you imagine how legitimately traumatizing it was for Beatrice her entire life to essentially still have her mother, but her mother is basically not her mother anymore, just an empty shell of a person wearing the skin of her mother. She essentially has to live in a home with a broken, empty, lifeless doll of a person and be reminded that before this, that person was her lively, funny and beautiful mother, now reduced to nothing but a fading shadow of her former self.
Honey Sugarman deserved so much better.
That scene at the end with all the audio clips was seriously haunting. Good job!
That moment when you realize that, even though Beatrice confused Bojack with Henrietta, she recognized Hollyhock. She knew who Hollyhock was. From the first time she saw her, she knew that was Henrietta's baby.
This episode and how it handled generational trauma was really touching and sadly hit hard to home.
My great grandmother lost her husband in WW2 and focused on the youngest of her three sons who was the only one looking like his father and after he died at age 2 of a lung infection she completely lost it, getting schizophrenia later on and had to move in with her sister who was supportive of her but didn't like my grandfather and his brother. My granduncle got aggressive pretty early and let his feelings out on him and began to get into trouble making his aunt even more abusive. My grandfather began to work at 11 to support the family and always had to do all himself with no figure to trust and learning how attachment can hurt due to his mother and her fate. He didn't want children for that reason and only did so because my grandmother wanted a child and wouldn't let go of that wish. She was the only person he let his guard down for. She was very headstrong and confident, something he found attractive. Despite her being a loving mother my grandfather gave his mentality on to my dad. To this day he was supportive of my brother and me but tried desperately to fix problems himself instead of reaching out for help. Its something I got quite often criticized for as well. Doing projects alone and over all wanting to do everything on my own.
Today my grandmother suffers from dementia and my grandfather takes care of her yet constantly blaming her for his inability to cook because she didn't let him try when she was fully there. When my mom offered help he refused, still distrustful of her because she wouldn't do it the way grandma used to do it.
It's so sad to see how grandma seems to be all that keeps my dad and my grandfather together
the sad part,......beatrice wasn't hallucinating like bojack thought, she never ate ice cream before in her life, but she knew bojack in his own way, was showing love to her, so they both played along
Something I've noticed about Honey Sugarman is that after the lobotomy, we never directly sees her, only in photos and that terrifying moment where we see Joseph bashing on her but it's only their shadows. And those shadows have two senses depending on who you're talking about.
Joseph always put a smile on, he does narrow comments but they're never brought up because it's hidden behind that polite smile and joyful tone but once he knows he isn't seen to ruin his reputation, he's abusive, neglectful and blaming his mistakes on others.
For Honey, it has double senses. She has never been the same after the surgery, in inability to raise Beatrice, she became the shadow of herself.
It's also possible that the lobotomy caused too much brain damage or her mental health worsen over the years due to it and wasn't able to work either. So Joseph probably hid her from the world because he was ashamed of something she didn't even had a word on.
Poor Honey was basically catatonic the rest of her life - a literal walking shadow.
12:48 Generational trauma is a prime example of the Butterfly Effect. The simple act of a little girl’s doll being burned in a fireplace was like an earthquake felt through space & time.
I think this episode does something really beautiful. You’ve spent the entirety of the show rooting against Beatrice and thinking of her as the antagonist, but suddenly the show does this and with the flick of a button, they turn Beatrice into Bojack.