THE NEGATIVE IMPACTS OF BOOKTOK HYPE, TROPE MARKETING, AND COMP TITLES ~ let's discuss
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- THE NEGATIVE IMPACTS OF BOOKTOK HYPE, TROPE MARKETING, AND COMP TITLES ~ let's discuss
Immortal Longings
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#booktok #booktokhype #hypedbooks
I did read a book this summer that gave me Hunger Games vibes.. and that was Monsters Born & Made by Tanvi Berwah. It's a South Asian-inspired fantasy where there are very distinct classes and annual game/competition/race. I especially loved part of the race where they were racing in a labyrinth that changed as they moved through it.
I had fun reading it and would generally recommend it if you read the synopsis and it sounds intriguing to you. The main characters are young so this may be considered YA not sure but I'm not a young adult and gave it a 4⭐ great book that needs more love 😊
Thanks for the rec! Hopefully others will see this if they are looking for a book similar to Hunger Games :D
@@ebnovels welcome!
Thanks for putting this rec out there! I don’t really read a whole lot of ya anymore. But the hunger games is still one of my favorite book series (probably do some to nostalgia.) But I would love to pick up a book with similar plot points.
@@Acassie welcome! Hope you enjoy it 😊
Maybe, if the new hunger games movie is successful, we'll see more books that are similar?
I've been saying for months now that I HATE trope marketing! However, my reasoning is that it can definitely set up expectations AND I feel like it can spoil stuff too. Some trope marketing is EXTREMELY specific. I'm a huge fan of enemies to lovers..etc but I find that if I'm told a book has a 'knife to the throat' moment then when I'm reading it I'm always underwhelmed.
In summary I miss when it was all about the books ACTUAL premise and I could be surprised by finding my favorite tropes in a book
I on the other hand love trope marketing because it helps me immensly and i know what to expect. I don't want to waste money on books with tropes i dislike and most of the time reading only the blurb is not helping.
If i have to spend money i NEED to know the tropes, if i can get books for free (library, a gift) it's not really necessary to know them and i can be more experimental and choose books i normally would not be picking up without any regret :D
It can feel like spoilers sometimes!
Trope marketing is becoming overused unnecessarily. Fourth Wing was NOT enemies to lovers and ACOTAR had a pretty beast.
Personally, "as seen on BookTok" is fairly synonymous with "you probably won't like this" for me. And my impression of authors who make it big but then branch out into other genres (like Rebecca Yarros branching into fantasy) is that they honestly aren't very good at that. I don't think they write BookTok-y books because they're excellent writers just trying to cash in on a trend; I think they write BookTok-y books because that's the way they write.
For some, that can definitely be the case. There’s the occasional book that gets popular on booktok that completely doesn’t fit the mold, but right now, there does tend to be a specific type (most of the time).
Yup. Same for me.
I'm mean she kinda openly says that she writes this way intentionally
This is my perception too. I'm occasionally willing to give them a chance, but if books like Fourth Wing are what book tok raves about, I feel like the Rick and Morty meme. "Your boos mean nothing. I've seen what makes you cheer!"
SAME.
Except The Priory of the Orange Tree I disliked most books hyped on booktok.
I agree, and I think we'll see more authors using pseudonyms when switching genres so that their books have a fair chance getting into the right hands.
That’s not even something I brought up, but that’s a great point!
This is so true! I work as a bookseller and put on events so I’ve met many authors and sales reps from publishing houses and I can’t help but notice the “buzz word pressure.” It’s a painful thing about our industry - books are often enjoyed slowly, but for publishers/authors/booksellers to stay alive it’s always about the NEXT book.
I’ve met authors whose editors/publicists have given them ideas for their next book based off of what’s popular. The shitty thing is that’s what they may have to do to make any money off their books or to get their next contract. Food for thought 💭
I'm honestly surprised to see how much BookTok hype and trope marketing works because I personally need a detailed description and at least 5 people telling me exactly what they loved about a book before I pick it up.
If Chloe Gong had actually written the book that her over-zealous marketing team outlined in the blurb, I might have enjoyed it.
What I was promised: An action-packed tournament where people fight to the death, full of social commentary about poverty and power. There are two contestants on opposite sides who will make an uneasy alliance and fall for each other along the way.
What I got: A tournament that was practically in the background for the majority of the book and felt so non-urgent it was boring (I feel like 2/3 of this overlong, barely-edited book was just people sitting around in their apartments with no sense of danger). Puddle-deep social commentary where she just constantly tells us that the poor people are dirty and hungry, as though our little Ivy grad author has never met a poor person who wasn't a panhandler on the street. And then there's the romance between two people who feel so flat you might as well be smushing a Barbie and Ken together and forcing them to kiss. This book was the worst I've read all year, and I most definitely don't think Chloe Gong has the political chops to write a book like this.
I agree that the games didn’t seem as pressing as what you have typed out in the beginning of the comment-I’d have been pretty disappointed as well if that’s what I’d been hoping for! I went in without really know what I was getting, so by not having any expectations, it actually helped. I think the jumping aspect of the story played a much bigger role than what that quick blurb showed, as well as the mysteries involving it and our main characters. Also, the tournament definitely doesn’t feel urgent with the fact that August is helping her cheat her way through it, so…the tournament isn’t really a tournament for her 😅
I don’t know, though, that I think Gong has no concept of poverty besides panhandlers. The marketing is perhaps to blame for putting emphasis there-I wouldn’t really bring the author’s ivy league background into the equation (though I know marketing also loves to remind us of that)
@@ebnovels Re: the poverty, it was one of those things where there was a clear setup to explore the problem of healthcare, poverty, and how power determines your quality of life with Otta Avia (both the laziest and weirdest name conversion in the book, imo), but then she just decided not to expand on Anton and Otta much outside of telling us that Anton is stressing about paying Otta's bills. It's weird how stressed he is about it, because he doesn't seem to feel any guilt or angst while he's lusting after Calla. Tbh I eye-rolled hard at the scene with Otta at the end, because it felt like such a cheap set-up for a love triangle where you already know the outcome, rather than anything that would characterize Otta beyond "frigid b**** who everyone but Anton hates."
There was a scene where Calla speaks to a woman who says her shop is about to close, and before she can explain any sort of systemic issues that might be present, the shop owner just says, "Oh, I won't bore you with that." Personally, I would have liked to hear more exploration of those kind of problems and less about Calla's outfits or her edgy haircut, which were elements that made it feel more like fanfiction and less like a polished piece of writing. The focus on pretty inconsequential details also cheapened what was already mid-tier writing at best, imo, and made it a total slog for me.
There were a lot of things (like the mention of medical equity, the body-jumping, and the setting) that made me hopeful when I started this book, but the shallow treatment of both themes and characters, in addition to a lot of small details that felt like she was trying too hard to make it adult and edgy, really made this one tough to get through.
Is it true that the book is based on Antony and Cleopatra?
@@sakurablossoms94Yes.
@gabz49242 LOL Haven't read the book, but this review is hilarious and savage
Very interesting! This is why I think some authors have pseudonyms like Nora Roberts for example. Her lane is contemporary romance but she writes murder mysteries under the name JD Robb. Maybe other authors should start exploring this option so that they don't get "stuck" in a particular genre
This is an issue I've been thinking of for the past few months. Books are being promoted and possibly even created based on a list of tropes, which can be misleading and result in disappointment for readers. Part of a negative review I had to give for a book was due to the author promoting her book in a way that led to me having a completely different idea for what the novel was. Even without the inaccurate promotion, I still wouldn't have given it more than two stars, but that didn't help. I also have to wonder if the author was writing for tropes rather than for an actual novel, given how empty the story and characters were.
I wonder how much of an author marketing their own book is actually them, and how much is it the marketing and their advice on how to describe books 🤔
@@ebnovels yeah, they are likely advised on the type of content and wording to use. That's probably why so many advertise with similar wording and formatting.
I had actually decided to not read this because it didn't feel like I was the target audience. I'm an older fantasy/sci fi reader and this felt like a YA/TikTok-easy read. But, now I'm curious... Thinking I'm going to give it a try.
It’s possible it could still not be for you! But it feels less like what I think a lot of readers imagine when they think “booktok book”
I feel the same way. I don't have tik tok so I honestly don't know what is popular on that platform. Lol
However, cyberpunk anime vibes with a game show all sound like things I would enjoy.
@@ebnovels absolutly could be the case, but I am intrigued and much more excited to give it a try! You never know, maybe I'm not as old as I feel.
@@jessicaschlott3879 I know right! Now I have to read it. It's the rules.
I suspect booktok has caused this but I can’t be sure, but my current publishing pet peeve is that they have taken cover art styles that are have always been in line with more YA fantasy romance books, and started putting them on very different genres. Like Den of Vipers. I am a major cover shopper. I love beautiful covers. If I hadn’t known what Den of Vipers was, it is very likely I would have bought the book thinking it was something very different from what it is. I like being able to know the general genre of the book I’m looking at from the cover style.
There are absolutely some books that I think look interesting, and then find out they’re dark romance, or smut, which generally isn’t what I’m looking for 😅 (cough cough, a Game of Fate)
Great point on the cover art. So true
This is how I feel about cartoony covers for very smutty adult romance. It’s so misleading since they look like YA contemporary romance to me
@@BooksToAshes They’ve been doing the cartoony covers with historical romances lately, and I am not into it.
I am actually not on BookTok so I don't experience the marketing side personally, but it is everywhere in every bookstore that I go to. A monthly book box that I belonged to was originally sending me wonderful books and getting me to delve into new authors and different genres, but at some point it just became the newest booktok sensation and I really noticed a drop in books that I enjoyed. I am absolutely of the opinion that everyone should read what they enjoy, but for me, as a rule, booktok books just aren't that (personally) great. They are very trope-y, the writing is good at best, and there is rarely anything new. This is a very broad generalisation and I have been surprised way less than I have been proven right.
They are also, more often than not, YA which is a reason for all of the above anyway.
Since there are better ways for me to find books that I like, I prefer not to buy anything that is on that list.
I'm too old for tiktok; I can't stand super short "content" like that. Especially in regards to books! I need more than 30 seconds of a hyper jump cut video to decide if I want to read something or not. Tiktok is Time Rot imo.
Haha, IG and RUclips reels/shorts should be reserved for cute animal clips! 😆
Editing my comment to explain that I don’t have TikTok, so those are my experiences with short form content 😅
@@ebnovels omg yes short clips of animals or pets are always welcome 😸
I think in the last decade we have had a lot of YA that has been leaning older and older. I think the YA target audience has stretched into adult readers. From there we have adult readers who want the tone and style of YA but more relatable to them now they are adult. So publishers are complying and we now have books with adult themes and characters that still have a crossover value with YA in regards to tone and styles and tropes. I think the adult Illumicrate and FairyLoot books feel like. They’re YA for adults and I think that is likewise my impression of BookTok books.
I don’t have TikTok but when I see “booktok” tables or sections it’s usually romance. I don’t read romance so I don’t read booktok. But as much as I love Hunger Games I like to avoid “hunger games” books. I feel like it’s getting a little too common
My impression of BookTok books is exactly what you described. Commercial/entertainment, and not about authors who tend to give more importance on the writing style, themes, and other aspects of “serious” literature. And so I don’t follow. I’m not the target demographic.
I think there’s occasionally a book that breaks that mold, but generally speaking, I find a lot of bookworms have that impression of booktok. And for those that are looking for that kind of book, that’s great for them ☺️
This is something I've been thinking about. Booktok books (or wildly promoted books in general, Fourth Wing, any SJM, any Colleen Hoover, etc), have really become synonymous in my mind with: marathon read, usually fairly flat or stereotypical characters, moderate to little plot, and, especially, lots of spice, usually that being the main "plot" over the actual plot. So, overall I don't have a great opinion about the hyped Booktok darlings or overhyped books in general because they all (so far) tend to be that way. Now, I'm also not one to just completely write a book off because of that. I still do my own research into the synopsis and overall story to see if it's something I might wind up liking. Most of those Booktok darlings/overhyped novels that I have given a try, I generally don't rate them very high and some of them I actually disliked. (Read the Cruel Prince trilogy, really didnt like it. Fourth Wing, WAY too much thirsting for my taste and not nearly enough actual plot, it didn't even feel like the dragons were the main part of the book. Colleen Hoover, quick reads, yes, but very formulaic, stereotypical romances with lots of trauma being used as shock factors that I just don't jive with and a lot of them are not dealt or handled with in healthy ways). That being said, of one of the popular ones, Throne of Glass I did very much so enjoy. Doesn't mean I don't have my criticisms for the books (thinking especially of all the "telling" that the MC is such an amazing assassin able to slaughter everyone in sight and very little actual proof of that being the case; much of the opposite actually being true with her making some admittedly stupid choices for "Adarlan's best assassin"). I'm rereading them now, I still have this criticism and I'm still enjoying the overall story. Looking at the more popular ACOTAR books by SJM, I'm not in any rush to read them because, aside from them probably being a "fun" marathon read, I doubt I'm going to like them much because even a lot of SJM fans will admit that the plot is more lacking in that series where ToG actually had a decent plot (imo). Very long story short, because of the stigma in my own head from reading and being mostly disappointed by the Booktok darlings and overhyped books that I have given a try, I'm not quick to give them a try. The "overhype" has actually made me hesitant to even give some books a try.
I always read synospis of a book and then decide if i am interested or not (sometimes even reviews if i want more details and to see general feelings), but honestly i am not ''attached'' to authors. Yes, there are certain authors where i have read and loved multiple books so i am aware when they come up with something new, but if i read synospis and i am not intereated then that's totally ok, i agree with 13:46 i wish to all the authors to write what they feel like, i don't want to put any author in a box where i expect them to only write that one specific thing i once liked lol
I think that’s a really great way to look at things! I know for myself I can sometimes get stuck on my “auto-buy authors” even when the books they’re working on don’t sound like something I’d like.
As someone who isn't actually on TikTok and only understands BookTok through videos like this, I definitely have noticed a trend of BookTok books being "no plot just vibes" and, of course, the smut. And unfortunately they tend to not have the type of vibes that are my type of "no plot just vibes" stories. I see a lot of escapism-type books, whether that's fluffy romance or dark fantasy, if they make the reader forget about the real world for a second then it seems like that book gets very popular on BookTok.
I'm currently reading immortal longings and having a blast! I think the other problem is naming things "retellings". It's been awhile since I've read Antony and Cleopatra but besides names I don't get a whole lot of comparison so far, More "inspired by".
Chloe gongs writing style always gets me hooked whether it's ya or adult.
Also I don't have tiktok but I still see the problematic marketing.
I’m glad you’re enjoying it! And YES to the retellings comment. A couple of nods to something doesn’t really feel the same as a formal retelling 🫠 which I’ve seen a lot of recently (though with this book in particular, I’m not the best person to dictate whether it is or isn’t incredibly similar to the original)
@@ebnovelsI just wrote about this, the whole "retelling" of everything. Turns me off and I do not have ticktok or twitter/X....
Whenever I think of BookTok, I automatically think of Colleen Hoover and the teenage girls who love her work. Tbh, I stay away from there because I don’t support her work and am not a fan of the platform in general.
Colleen Hoover does seem rather synonymous with BookTok for a lot of people 😯
It's totally fine to dislike or not be interested in Colleen Hoover, but please don't discredit things just because the audience is female or young female dominated. A piece of media is not necessarily bad or shallow because young female's like it.
I'm looking forward to reading this one. Her other books didn't appeal to me so this will be my first book of hers. I read the first two chapters and already was into it.
Oh good! If you liked the first two chapters, then I think there’s a good chance you’ll enjoy the book (hopefully anyway 😄)
Yep, I will totally admit that booktok marketing for a specific author will affect if I ever pick up their books. Generally, the kinds of books that get popular are not my cup of tea, and once an author has published something along those lines it's unlikely I will try any of their work until a few reviewers I trust talk really highly of them. While the TikTok audience is quite large, they seem very limited in their tastes, and I definitely feel for authors who end up getting pigeon-holed into that style of writing in order to maintain an audience... It doesn't seem like a sustainable way for anyone to get started. They end up losing their original audience if they stray too far from the formula, and people like me won't try them... Its a tough place to be in.
The whole marketing on tropes is something I despise, too... I know (and am glad) it helps some people, but it eliminates some of the surprise from a story. If I know going in 2 or 3 of the tropes the book has, it becomes too predictable. :( Not how I like my books to be, unfortunately! I'd much prefer knowing complex themes the book explores, or if it's character/plot/atmosphere focused, with a brief story hook.
To your second point, I think trope marketing works if it’s very much a part of what the plot entails, but you’re right, sometimes it just spoils the book 😅😅😅
@@ebnovels To me, it might matter how it's framed! A lot of marketing relies on buzzwords like "enemies to lovers", which for a story like Fireborne would be woefully ... reductive, if that's the right word? That's probably why I like more thorough reviewers like yourself to fill my TBR... You might discuss the tropes, but in a more nuanced way. :)
Editors telling authors to write specific things, sadly isn't new. Several years ago at a book signing, an author talked about how she was writing a book and was told they wanted to use a summery cover and have Summer in the title, but the book she was writing had nothing to do with summer. So she changed the book to fit what they wanted. Another author who's written almost 100 books had what she was working on outright rejected by her agent because "there was no interest" in the subjects only to then see several books about that subject be released and well received over the next couple of years, leading her to leave her publishers. These are not booktok authors. I am afraid the issue will only get worse for both those authors who are booktok darlings and those that aren't.
While I didn’t have Booktok expectations, I read it for a Romance Book Club and it was not that. Once I stopped reading it as a romance and more as a dystopian type fantasy I enjoyed it. Will definitely be picking up the sequel
Hey, that’s a pretty cool way to have your expectations shifted :D I’m planning on picking up the sequel too, especially given how everything ended 😄
On the whole comp titles thing: I just finished Ebony Gate which I thought was pretty good. But the marketing was like "This is John Wick with dragon magic". And I kept reading thinking "when does it get like John Wicky?" and it doesn't really. It's just that both MCs used to be assasins. It kind of affected my enjoyment of the book. But only in the sense that I felt lied to. I wanna read Immortal Longings tho. You said anime and I said "say less I'm in" out loud.
I love how timely your video topics are, but how clearly well-thought-out your points are. I love that you strive to look at all ends of a situation!
I’ve noticed that a lot of YA books, and BookTok books tend to be… dramatic? Is that the right word? The characters tend to lead more with their emotions, and long term consequences aren’t really a consideration for the characters. I mean, it makes sense, right? Many younger people tend to act and react emotionally, and if you ask them about anything long term, they tend not to really see it as important. (Or at least don’t fully grasp how important) So reading about characters who think and act like them is appealing.
Naturally, they would find adult books to be boring. We think and act differently. (For the most part.)
negatives is how I'll just assume I'll hate it because 99.99% of popular booktok books I've looked at have been badly written, surface-level trope-following or just boring.
for every gem that gets hyped, all of the others suck.
The more I hear about BookTok, the more I’m glad that I don’t follow it. Was Immortal Longings my favorite book this year? No, but I don’t think that the 3.60 rating is accurate, especially given the reviews I’ve read. I picked this book as part of my BTM because it appealed to my tastes and I’m glad I did. I think it also gave me more realistic expectations of what to expect so I was more forgiving when it didn’t knock me out of the park.
I’m glad you enjoyed it! Also, sorry, unrelated, but is your profile picture Tifa? Apologies if I’m very wrong 😂
I’m currently doing a genre exploration of cyberpunk so I’ll check it out! Thanks!
Oh, you’re welcome! And that sounds like a fun exploration-I definitely need to read more of that 😄
I think it only makes sense certain types or tropes of books being successful on tiktok, because, as long I understand, this social media is made and consumed mostly by teenagers and young adults. I've heard often that tiktok books are shallow, but I have the impression that is only a mean to make people start to read. Just like the book Twilight, everybody hates it for its quality, but because of this book most people started reading Emily Bronte, for example. Of course, I always have my doubts of books that are wildly spread on tiktok, but we have to be more critical about it. A simple research about a synopsis is enough to break this cycle of accepting other peoples opinion and its consequences.
Fair! I think that’s a nice attitude as well. I agree that as a whole, things like this tend to help people get into reading, which is something most of us bookworms are for 😄
I love your channel (s), I really appreciate your consistently thoughtful analysis. ❤️
Oh, that’s very nice of you, thank you! I appreciate your comment 😄😄😄
If any book is reputed to be a "retelling" Im not very interested. Same with Greek mythology. I have negative thoughts on those marketing ploys.
I'm generally positive about things like Booktube or Booktok because I think that everything that helps people to get into reading and to find things they want to read is awesome. This said, you pretty much listed some of the points why I probably never care about Booktok that much. I'm 50 years old (so maybe I'm just to old for it), but I have problems with the way books are hyped up by no matter who. I also don't like care about trope marketing and comp titles just because my taste is broad enough that this mostly doesn't really help me choose between titles. What it can do though is driving me away from a book. I don't mind romance in my books and I also don't care which Sex and Gender the protagonists of that romance have. But label it as Romantasy (especially when combined with the "spicy" moniker), or put the LBTGQ/Queer tag on it, and my brain immediately assumes that the book in question is all about that and everything else doesn't really matter. And, let's put it that way, I'm not interested in shallow love stories or porn of any sort. Add to that vampires, werewolves or fae and I'm out immediately.
Which is why I generally prefer the longer approach taken on BookTube, or even going oldschool and reading reviews and magazines like Locus, because it gives me much more information to base my book choices on.. And while I am aware that this may make it harder for new, upcoming or simply unknown authors to pique my interest just because they already have to go through a filtering process, it seems to spare me to have to DNF books in general and it already fills my TBR file with more books faster than I can read them.
So long story short, this video (and seeing Chloe Gong being nominated for the Dragon Awards over at Locus) has done more to pique my interest in that author than all of the ongoings at Booktok you described ever would have.
I think you described how a lot of people feel toward booktok and Romantasy books. Haha, the “spicy” label has definitely given me an impression of what the books are going to be like, which I suppose is…a good thing?-because as you said, it does signal to me that it’s probably not going to be my cup of tea, while simultaneously signaling to a different reader that it’s actually exactly what they’re looking for.
My husband has the New York review of books delivered to us, so you’re not alone in liking some of the less social media oriented reviews :)
Any time I see those "Popular on Booktok" tables at barnes & nobles i always avoid it. Idk what it is but any time I've heard that a book is popular on tiktok it makes me want to not read it
Haha, what a hipster! :P I’m kidding. Often those tables are showcasing a specific type of book, and for some people, that type isn’t for them-and that’s ok too 😄
re: Hunger Games comparison, the author herself compared the two main characters to two villainous contestants in the Hunger Games, so that didn’t help. Possible she was told to do so by marketing though?
Ohh, that’s interesting
That’s a good point. I would never pick up C. Hoover and I never heard of her before booktok. But i picked up Verity and hated it. Then booktok did the rest of the reviews for me basically ruining her as an author for my personal preference. But she’s doing fine without my purchase so 😂
However. Booktok has been GREAT for horror recs.
I don't follow booktok.
How is this statement helpful or interesting?
Already spend too much time following booktube
Haha, I don’t have one myself, but most people have seen retailers both on their websites and in their stores promoting “BookTok Books.” Have you not seen those? If so, that’s actually pretty surprising 😮
It also has impacted marketing, which I think is an interesting thing to examine :)
I think you have a really good point. But I don't think it is not only a social media thing. I remember Stephen King talking about the fact that he had trouble publishing fatasy after his first horror novel were a hit. The marketing does not support it. But I also heard some readers/reviewers saying, they were disappointed, because they expect a certain thing for an author. I always think that it sad, that you get stuck in a box so quickly...
I understand what u mean. The Colleen hoover example really sold it. Its a good conversation to have bcuz yes, i have been dissuaded in my opinions of tiktok popular books, probably unfairly.
Thx for all the work u put in for these videos😊
Also, about chloe gong: the most i hear about her is her writing style. People trash it. People say she doesn't deserve her fame. I've only read 1/4 of These Violent Delights, so idk enough to say she's a bad writer. Thoughts?
I have one thought about the hype on book Tok. I am an older follower and grew up without the internet. I think it's funny that we have so many creators telling us what to read. When there was no internet, I, me, I decided what I wanted to read by the blurb in the book and maybe the cover, but I didn't have to go ask all my friends in school what I wanted to read. Now it seems that is what book Tok is about, and the fad is to read what their favorite creator tells them to read. I've also seen book tok creators hate on self-published authors for using tropes that look like SJM or whoever the latest popular trad author is. It's so high school and becoming toxic.
Wait GoT is a comp for Bonesmith? Uhm...just because there is some political intrigue does not make something like GoT. lolol I don't really follow any TikTok or BookTok stuff, so I have no idea what books are popular on BookTok. I just always hear it tends to be what was popular on BookTube around 5 years ago lolol
Remember 50 Shades of Gray? All the hype! I had it thru online, (don't think it was Kindle). I read about ¼, and stopped. The spice didn't bother me, but it was so poorly written, I had to stop.
Honestly knowing it's not a typical booktok book makes me want to read it more. Yes I realize this is part of the problem, but the type of books I've personally seen on booktok are normally not the type of books I read.
Aww sailor mars is so you ✨and great video as always!
I wish the death game genre was better known, so we could use that as a short hand rather than strictly using comp titles. Like not everything is trying to be The Hunger Games, Battle Royale or Squid Game.
i got immortal longings from my local thrift store recently and when it first came out i was curious about it bc its scifi and it has the games like the hunger games it was being compared to it i think or a mash up of thg and somethin else but i thought it was YA so im glad that it reads older than that actually even tho i usually read Ya, I didnt read her other popular Ya books bc they didnt sound interesting to me. when i see those tropes or buzz words for books on insta (i dont really use tiktok) i usually check out the actual description on goodreads to make sure its something i would actually be interesting in! bc theres times where it might have tropes im into but then when i check the actual description of the book and ratings or reviews even im not interested anymore bc there might be other things about the book that im not into. like if it has a lot of spice or its witches or other stuff im not into.
This book is on my TBR, and I was avoiding it because "as seen on BookTok", and I'm not in a mood for this now :-D But after this video I decided to give it a try. So yeah, I would say I agree with things you saying in this video, there are pros and cons from being "as seen on BookTok".
Honestly, it's appaling to see how someone only reading a book that is only SOLELY on tropes. This goes the same to authors, who marketize their works with only including the tropes and nothing else. One time, I saw someone (can't remember whether it's an author or a reviewer) puts "plot" in those arrow-diagram thingy as a "trope". A TROPE, I TELL YOU. And it really makes my English Lit ass TRIGGERED AND OFFENDED by LOOKING AT IT😭
I mean, it's okay if you want to read books based on their tropes, let alone writing based on tropes, but *depending* on it and having high expectations on a certain book just because "It has all of my favourite tropes!" is just weird🙃
I read Bardugos "the familiar" - I've only read her shadow and bone series before, and this book was clearly more adult. But it also... wasn't very good. not because of it being more adult, but just.... it failing to create engagement. It was simply boring. I'm a critic myself and I write for a small filmmagazine sometimes, (lol the only one in my country XD) and I think that a pro critic should be able to judge what a book or film is trying to do - and judge it on that (marketing does not always match that - which is a failure of marketing not necessarily the text itself.) - not judge it on what other things the author has done before - that is relevant (as intertext basically) but it isn't what is happening now, now a new piece of media is happening. I tend to just.... not listen to any and all critics that fail to do this (in my perspective) very basic thing. That is the difference between a critic and a person online with opinions on media, IMHO.
Personally, if the plot of a book doesn't make sense, there are contradictory things happening in the book, and there is absolutely no substance to the writing and the plot, I will never pick up a book by that author again. It's because these mistakes usually point to incompetence on the part of the author (***cough cough*** Fourth Wing). I'm not quick to judge when I don't PERSONALLY like the plot or the writing style, because that is MY opinion and that doesn't make the book objectively bad.
I think ever since BookTok was created, the quality of books that people read has wholly decreased. The bar for what can be called an objectively good book has been set so low, that it's now practically buried beneath the ground. People are mostly reading those books for the "vibes".
I agree. I thought this book was good; but definitely not like The Hunger Games.
I DNFd Immortal Longings because the body snatching was very triggering for me because it’s basically r*pe
Ah, I didn’t read it that way, but I understand why that concept would be very triggering. I’m glad you dnf’d it-I never want people to feel like they have to push through a book that makes them feel extremely uncomfortable
I actually quite enjoyed Immortal Longings, it defo has its gaps but i thought it was quite unique still!
Yeah, I found the jumping aspect pretty interesting 😄 Glad you liked it!
Here's where the concept of Re-Branding comes in. Same thing happens when huge companies want to introduce a product or line that doesn't gel well with what we know them for.
Loyal customers rebel, and their new target customers 'refuse to be targeted',... because they don't associate that company with the new line/product.
So they fail. Miserably.
Best way to do it is to Rebrand.
J.K Rowling writing under Robert Galbraith was a very very good move.
Established/ suddenly famous authors,... Should do that.
Rebrand.
There are so many books that suffer from misleading marketing. Now, the criticisms regarding Gong (whether YA or adult) that I have seen the most have more to do with her poor handling of politics and poverty, and lack of nuance, especially coming from her very US-influenced perspective and her very weathly background.
I usually run from booktok books, but i picked up immortal longings and i absolutely disliked it. Never read chloe gong before so i had no expectations but it did not work for me at all.
So i get your point, but yeah this was really disappointing for me
I think this is true of all marketing. I picked up the first crescent city book by Maas based on it being sold as an adult fantasy(I now know what that means)/high fantasy. I was heavily disappointed as, in my opinion, that's not what it is at all - it does now fit what the adult fantasy/new adult genre has become ie young adult level writing but with adult subjects. If it had been sold as an urban fantasy/romance I would've enjoyed it much more. I know she's now extending the world but an expansive world does not equate to 'high fantasy' especially not one executed how Maas does
Great video. I think you're hitting the nail on the head with the working mechanisms. I do not think it is necessarily exclusive to the booktok books or even books as a medium. I think the general lesson for authors and publishers is that if you diversify your portfolio as an author/artist/creator that requires a rigorous and consciously different marketing effort in order to make the diversification succesful. I think Rebecca Kuang (by no means my favorite author :P) did this very well. She switches type of book and context, but does so while very explicitly communicating it.
I think youtube itself also has very many good examples. Which brings me to the other ingredients. I think it is very helpful to have a sufficiently large group of fandom with which you have a sufficient parasocial relationship for them to try something different or talk positively about the new thing you're trying as an author/artist/creator.
I didn't really like Immortal Longings story wise (plus there's a plot hole), but I loved the aesthetic, if that makes sense!
I particularly resent booktok for overdoing the "enemies to lovers" trope. I see enemies to lovers being thrown around to describe books where the MCs are actually NEVER enemies, they just make a couple snarky comments at each other and are clearly in love by the first third of the book. That's not shade on the authors, they're writing the story they want (even if some of them do capitalize on the latest trending topes) but it is shade on the community itself, which classifies and describes books to other potential readers. Of course reading is a hobby, and a fun activity none of us should take too seriously, but if we're out there recommending books we should try to have a decent criteria when it comes to analyzing and describing a story, instead of narrowing down a small aspect of the book into trending keywords, even when the book doesn't actually fully meet the trope. I've learned not to trust booktok after reading some of the most popular this summer: about 80% of them I found were terrible (in my opinion) and it all comes down to misleading reviews and recommendations.
I strongly disliked Chloe Gong's "These violent delights" and had to DNF the second book because I felt that the writing was not very good/needed editing. Is the writing of this book any better? the storyline sounds great!
I don’t feel like authors should be type cast into certain stories/genres. They should be able to explore stories that they inspire them. It’s true, that by doing so it gets harder to market that author because people hunt for the same vibes. However, it should not be the end all be all. Authors change over their lives and their works do too!
i actually dont mind the type of book that booktok is often pushing because i know that i can, theoretically, enjoy these things. romantic fantasy, romance, ya fantasy, are all things ive enjoyed in the past. i like a campy, rompy, over the top, self indulgent story from time to time. no problems there. the problem comes in when i pick up booktok recs and theyre just... dull.
for some reason the authors seem to be so focused on writing tropes a certain way that they forget to make their books interesting. i dont mind tropes at all but you gotta bring something new to the table, be a little creative with it, right? otherwise, why bother?
One of the issues of opting out of a fight is it removes some tension though it opens a door to be explored with ideas of desperation depending on how well its done. For the hunger games not having the ability to quit forcibly adds tension and generally I believe is easier to write and it will work more often because otherwise you need to really be on top of your social commentary skills. I would not suggest younger writers take this approach. It takes life experience and nuance to really understand social commentary and how to even word it much less turn it into a story. Most social commentary done by younger writers and less skilled people tends to be very clucky and does not show the nuances of the situation, more of their idea of what the nuance is and people can see that. Social commentary should hid in the story and yet be understood through it. Im writing a story with social commentary but ive had a lot of time to understand what I wish to talk about. Ive learned the othersides and the complications. Life is never so simple as this person is bad and this person is good. Tolkien wrote that but he used absolute evil to do so. If you are not sure how to write social commentary then don't worry about it. If you want to write complex topics such as slavery or anything else you need to understand every side of it. You need to look at why people engaged in slavery and its not so simple as "you are lesser than" economic reasons that could be tied to taking care of one's family and building wealth for your children. That is now a complex character because he is engaging in a practice that is unethical to me but for him he can balance out the ethics for his actual needs such as caring for his family. How do all the people affect each other? What sort of story do you write? The heroism of the slave who escapes and builds a better life for himself. The slave owner who frees his slave seeing him as an equal? To Kill a Mockingbird is a masterclass of social commentary. A lawyer that is conflicted between what he was taught from society vs his morals and their foundations, Fighting against a system set up against his client. Social commentary is difficult to write and you don't to do it because you feel it has to be done, but if you are going to do it then really understand what you want to talk about.
Now I'm actually more curious about the book putting it on my tbr list. I think the comp title trend started with the pitch writing contests back on old Twitter and kinda became popular. But I think most of the time the tropes/comp titles are kinda misleading in a way that it creates a certain expectation and when it doesn't meet those expectations it let's down the reader who wanted see those things in the book.
90% of the time I won’t read an authors transition from “booktok” books, unless they’ve gotten praise from people I have similar taste to
“if colleen hoover tried to write a hard hitting fantasy” is literally just Fourth Wing. that’s it. an author with no interest or effort in fantasy writing in a vaguely fantasy setting to make money off a new demographic.
I don't think I like the idea of promoting tropes because you are telling your audience to accept the trope no matter how poorly it's done. Your only goal is to have the trope. If you subvert it it's going to make some of those readers angry and if you don't you will lose some readers that were looking for a twist on the idea. I use the trope of an orphan but I would not market my story on it because that just happens to be a part of the characters lives and not the actual story. One of the characters is technically royalty but I don't actually play into the trope and subvert it because that's what I wanted to write. If I were to tie myself to the tropes then my goal would be to write the trope, not a story that might use a trope for the purpose of telling the story.
Book tock is definitely overrated and it’s a lot of pressure to keep up with the gang.
It always turns me off to see "As seen on BookTok". I just don't pick those titles up. They feel... shallow 🙈
I am sorry but booktock equals s***tock cant stand it prayers and blessings for you and your husband and your beautiful puppy 🐶 love your number one Aussie family friend John ❤❤❤ need your husband back on with what he is reading 📖 or you give him three books 📚 to read ❤❤❤
There’s the occasional thing that gets popular there that I enjoy, but there are quite a few that aren’t for me 😅
@@ebnovels true 💜💜
It's called popcorn brain. People's attention span got so bad, they are too impatient to read synopsis.
Booktok make me read Fourth wing saying that was awesome and brilliant...🤡🤡🤡🤡
So yeah, hype does nothing but just sell the same story over and over again (romantasy is so predictable now a days)
I don't watch book tok, but my impression is definitely that they tend to be lighter fare.
I don't follow Booktok, mainly because the few times I've seen the "If you like this author, you'll like this" the book they were recommending was on my DNF pile. If a book is overhyped I will probably go into it pretty sure I'll dislike it, that way if I do like it it's a pleasant surprise. Trope Marketing is the worst, they box authors in neat little genres and many authors, like Stephen King and even George RR Martin, jump around the genres and you can't expect Wild Cards to be like Game of Thrones or Rogues, just like Misery is nothing like the The Dark Tower or Fairy Tale (I've grown tired of people complaining that Fairy Tale isn't dark like the usual Stephen King... it's more like a Fairy Tale... I thought it was implied!!!!) And many good authors are stuck with the YA label and when they do an Adult novel they don't know how to market it or if the author tries to write adult they tone it down to YA so they can keep their fan base... it's annoying
To your last point-authors who’ve previously been known for YA books who then write adult-could be a whole video (I’m kinda leaning toward making a discussion about it at some point). As you mentioned, it seems as though either they, publishing, or a combo of both don’t seem to know what to do with their books
My main thought is "am I the only one who doesn't have tiktok?"
Great Video!
I'm 39 year old woman, and I have never been on booktok (I know it would be a rabbit hole for me). I follow a handful booktubers (such as yourself!). I knew nothing of Chloe Gong before I picked up Immortal Longings for my bookclub, and I truly hated it. In fact, no, I didn't hate it, I just felt absolutely nothing while reading it. So I DNFed it after chapter 5. I thought the characters were flat and boring. I didn't feel any high stakes. I didn't care for anyone, nor about the world. I thought there were too many plot holes and inconsistencies. Such as the gene. How can a physical gene permit the QI to travel? The gene doesn't follow the person into the new body, just the energy, the QI, so how can they jump back? I would have preferred some magical realism there instead than a butchered scientific explanation (ok, I'm a scientist IRL, so....). Anyway, I didn't enjoy this book although I knew nothing of Chloe Gong, and I'm a fan of adult fantasy.
That being said, I understand the point you're making and it's interesting.
I 100% didn't buy this book because Gong is known as a YA author. Not necessarily because of TikTok specifically, but I have read other YA author's first adult books and been disappointed by how young they feel even if the protagonist is older and there might be some heavier content. The characters often still act young. Good to know it sounds like this is a more successful transition tho. Maybe I'll pick it up.
Please do reading sprints!! Would love to read with you!
I do them on Patreon and Worldhoppers! The next Worldhoppers sprint I’m hosting will be on the 4th-the channel is linked in my description bar 🤗 I’ve done a sprint on my third channel, Full Meta Analysis, as well, if you like manga and/or comics :)
I don't watch tiktok, but i hear enough about it to understand why campy and breezy would be associated with book tok books. You made me interested in Immortal Longings. The title doesn't make me think "cyberpunk", but that's a tangent. Don't worry about rambling. This kind of topic is hard to convey precisely, because it involves all sorts of subjective things like other people's perceptions and expectations, and the tension between marketing constraints and the way that many readers would like books to be understood. You just can't avoid some rambling. I guess if a book appeals to me in some way when i see it, I'll at least pick it up and try to figure out if I'd like it, regardless of what the author wrote previously, or association with booktok. However, after watching your reviews (and a smattering of other channels) for a while now, I am more aware of contemporary authors, and have at least a rough idea about what sorts of things they write.
From reading the synopsis, I just couldn’t find why I was supposed to be rooting for the MC. Taking over another person’s body and using it for violent games and even sex without their consent seems so evil to me, and I had no confidence that Gong is dealing with this huge ethical problem thoughtfully the way a novel for adults would be expected to. The reviews confirmed my misgivings, so I’m just not interested.
Personally, I wouldn't pick up a hypothetical hard hitting fantasy Colleen Hoover book, because I'm not a fan of how she romanticises abusive and toxic relationships in her works. Most likely it would be there still in this book and I don't want to read that. Similarly, I know Cassandra Clare is coming out with an adult novel but her writing isn't for me at all, I'm not going to read it. For me it doesn't make such a big difference if a book is YA or adult. I can't predict if I'm more or less likely to enjoy a book based on this categorization only. Like V E Schwab is a hit or miss author for me, out of the two books of hers I liked most, one is adult and the other is YA (Vicious and Gallant).
Honestly idk about booktok books, many of them lean heavily towards romance which I read less of, so many very hyped booktok books don't appeal to me. But there are some books popular on tiktok I liked such as The Secret History, Song of Achilles and The Atlas Six. To be fair I don't think any of these were written to be booktok books, there seems to be a lot of pressure on authors to write stuff that will go viral and is easily marketable on tiktok. Which doesn't seem great.
At the same time I'm on tiktok and some of the content I watch is bookish so I get (good) recommendations. I managed to curate what the algorithm shows me and it's not the big booktok books. The Atlas Six is an exception as for recently released books that got popular (and in this case traditionally published), I saw it on tiktok before it got frequently talked about on booktube. But I watch dark academia tiktoks too, so that's probably why.
I really don't want to discredit booktok books cause I know how much work authors put into them, but man it just seems like a lot of popular booktok books are just so shallow. One-dimensional characters, shallow worldbuilding etc. A lot of them have interesting premises but they're rarely executed well or as good as they could have been (to my taste).
And trope marketing feels so reductive. It doesn't tell me if the book sounds interesting to me, it just tells me what buzzwords booktokers use. Just having a certain trope like enemies to lovers doesn't inherently make the book good. It could be great, but it's likely great for other reasons, not just because it has that trope.
But they obviously have their audience and there's absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying them.
I hate when people say something like "this book is like hunger games" and there is barely anything like that in the book.. Fourth Wing is just.. "Enemies to Lovers" when they were never really enemies. "Hunger Games" ..if it would make sense? Sure, it doesn't tho. This is military school and you need soldiers, so why the hell are you killing resources that you need?
wow this was such an interesting video and discussion, and not something i've really thought about before! it's true that trope marketing has just gotten way ridiculously out of hand though, and i just try not to pay attention to those at all. i've never read any of chloe gong's books, but now you have me really interested in immortal longings haha (and i have the fairyloot edition too).
i haven't seen any booktok content in a loooong time, so the only "booktok books" that come to my mind are probably not what's trendy recently, but the impression i've gotten from those booktok books have always been a very heavy emphasis on the romance portion, and it feels like readers only focus solely on the romance
I went into this book blind without expectations, for a book club. I guess I live under a rock and had no idea she was a hyped author at all. All i knew is that it was adult fantasy and a retelling of Anthony and Cleopatra. Boy was I disappointed… to me it read like YA all around, and I found it really hard to care about the plot because of how surface level everything was. So many things didn’t make sense. The interesting questions it posed were not discussed at all. I don’t know, I was expecting a more grown up book. So not sure I can blame marketing for this one. My main thought was that it should’ve been marked YA, not Adult 🤷♀️
I was going to skip this because I assumed it would be a TikTok type YA book (even though it’s adult, I assumed it would still feel YA). But it sounds kinda Bladerunner-y from your description, so I think I’ll check it out !
Any author who is switching age levels or genres is going to have a hard time with or without being a popular TikTok author. Musicians have the same problem when they try and shift their sound. Their current fans can sometimes be disappointed. It's just the challenge of being an evolving artist of any type of media. I don't know that Brandon Sanderson is a fair comparison, because he had the fan base to support a huge Kickstarter and if he has a couple books that flop and don't do well, it's fine, because he has a long history of other huge successes.
As for authors writing to trends, I'm SURE this has been a thing since basically forever. Publishers want to make money, and things that are popular and trendy make money. Every artist has this struggle: who do they create for? Themselves or their audience? They all have to make the tough decision between staying true to themselves and ensuring the success and money keep coming so they can keep creating at all.
If someone buys a book based solely on hearing it's "X, Y, Z" and then is upset when they don't like it only really has themselves to blame lol? I think the idea is that someone hears tropes or comparisons to other series they like and then reads the synopsis on goodreads or when they're checking out books at a store or library.
I think you're right that some people have negative connotations with BookTok books, but I personally would rather we not cater to people who dismiss books so easily. Besides, the number of readers the author gets from TikTok probably greatly out ways the number of people they lose because of the stigma.
I feel like authors are almost more like brands - in that you can choose a pen name and even have multiple pen names. I appreciate what Robin Hobb did which was have multiple pen names for her writing that suited different genres/audiences. I think it makes it clearer for her audience! If you really love her and her writing you can look it up and find the other pen names and books, but otherwise you can be sure that you'll get what you expect from a 'Robin Hobb' book, rather than it suddenly being quite different
I think its difficult and a lot to expect authors to manage multiple brands and marketing and publicity in that way, but I think thats generally true for authors across the board, with only one pen name as well. Just an industry that hasnt been set up well for its artists!
I agree with some of the other comments - to me, BookTook's favourites are generally a nope for me. However, I do agree with what you said regarding comp titles becoming quite extreme; most of the time I fail to see the similarity and, as you mentioned, that creates an expectation that the book will not live up to, effectively setting them for failure.
Great discussion, thanks for sharing!
This isn't exactly new, TikTok just made it more of a leading factor than it used to be. I've been writing for a long time, published for 10yrs, and comp titles have always been a major component of getting a book published...just behind the scenes. You can't query agents and editors without comp titles in your query letter, and you're taught, "Think of possible comp titles as you're writing," so you know where to go with the story. We're taught that readers need "something familiar." And you're right, those of us that don't write in a box end up lost in the muck with our books not being marketed as much as others. My current WIP has none of the popular tropes and zero comps other than a couple of movies. It's inspired by the relationship between Dracula and Renfield. I'm already certain that it'll get no TikTok traction. Some authors would change the story to fit the mould, I won't. I know tons of others that won't either, buuuttt their books are not popular on TikTok despite being awesome.
As soon as you said “people say it’s like the Hunger Games” my brain was like ugh, never mind. Lmao Such a knee jerk reaction! But it does sound interesting and only vaguely like HG, so I’m definitely interested.
I do think that no matter what genre or time period, there will always be people who hear a certain element/trope described and are immediately disinterested. Being really into more “traditional” fantasy myself, I remember the vibe from lots of men reading the genre that anything described with romance was garbage and they’d never bother. I don’t think that’s a short form media thing at all.
However, the way marketing is heading, I completely agree is putting a bad taste in readers mouths to certain genres/tropes/authors. I find it really upsetting actually. We’re lucky to live in a time where there’s such an abundance of new media and new authors coming up through social media and self publishing, but I too am worried about their longevity. It’s just a very different world now, for good and for ill.
I looked up the definition of "pulp" and it said, "popular or sensational writing that is generally regarded as being of poor quality." I don't know if I would be as harsh as Google in my definition of this type of material, but I do think it's interesting to look at booktok as the natural evolution and landing strip for where these types of written works to have ended up.
Women now having a much more prominent presence in the worldwide arena of consumption, it makes sense for this type of "pulpy" material to now be largely targeted toward a female audience. Booktok readers having a chip on their shoulders about being looked down upon for their tastes isn't anything new. This is something enjoyers of pulp have dealt with for probably close to a hundred years at this point.
I had the same reaction to the criticisms of Immortal Longings. I enjoyed it and didn't think there was too many descriptions. I read adult fantasy and it seemed like a normal level of detail for world-building. And I think that a lot of people assumed that her writing would be exactly the same as her YA books only with older characters. And those people were disappointed with the pacing and world-building.
I think this same phenomenon can be found everywhere. If you do something once, some part of the audience is going to expect you to do that again. Is it a comfort thing? Aren't you going to grow out of a trope or a genre at some point? For example with Marvel industry, when people are going to get bored to watch the same movie over and over and over again?!?! It’s the same with books: I don’t want to read the same book many times over. I find it a bit problematic, when certain tropes are "in fashion". One could safely assume that an author would like to tell different kinds of stories during their careers and it's a shame if they cannot execute an idea. And we as readers should encourage and welcome new ideas. Creating and imagining things is the point (that's why I love reading) and forcing someone into a certain box must not be a comfortable place for most of the authors. Again, there might be authors who are comfortable in certain genres or settings.
I actually started this book a few days before this video, great timing! But, so far I am enjoying it. I didn't read her YA books, I tend to avoid YA.
Most of the time now I will turn away from books with a central plot of “a life and death competition.” There are SO MANY and they keep coming. I honestly haven’t come across one or read one that has written that trope as well as The Hunger Games. That plot isn’t just in dystopian stories, it cuts a wide path across the entire SFF genre these days.