You fail to mention the short scene, in the last quarter of the film, where we briefly see the Tinder choices on Patrick’s phone. The suggestion is that he has been hooking up with men as well as women, often to find a room to sleep in.
Patrick is definitely open to messing around with men but the tinder swipe was him doing whatever it took to find a place to sleep for the night. That's what i got from it. He probably just leans more towards females .
jury is out on art, but patrick is explicitly bi or at least queer. the confirmation is the locker room scene when he swipes on tinder. not only does he check out the athlete next to him but he swipes right on a man.
on the subtext line, patrick shows his love for art through his actions. the chair pull, the thigh grab, the gum catch, the multiple kisses. when he asks art in the sauna “i dont matter?….. im not talking about tennis.” that was his confession; or at least him letting down his walls enough to know if art cares about him like he cares for art.
Not only is this movie very bisexual, it is also extremely polyamorous. All the people who feel "queerbaited" by this film are viewing it through a monogamous lens.
I think male friendship is beautiful, but I think this movie make his point of showing that there were something more between Patrick and Art. They are in a messy love triangle after all.
@@lamikiminach9503 there’s more to that in the film than just the kiss scene. I watched it a few times to really see what the director and screenwriter were trying to convey. They both say that these two were romantic and platonic
I also think that one potential read of the movie is that Art and Patrick, mostly Art, are using Tashi because they don't know how to place their feelings for each other. When retelling their first sexual interaction, Art tells Tashi that they were both thinking about another girl, one who also injured herself, a parallel eerily similar to Tashi. Which, and this is straight up speculation, could have been a lie, at least on Patricks part. Imagine telling your best friend you were beating it thinking about him. It would be the classic motif of queer men using straight women as shields. Tashi however, unlike the girl from the story, continued in the field of tennis even after her injuries, albeit as a coach. She has agency in this weird dance that Art and Patrick are performing. She is the one calling herself a homewrecker, she makes them kiss on purpose, she gets satisfaction from them playing 'good tennis', a metaphor plainly laid out in the movie for being in love (potentially more). She flips the cliché on its head, not a damsel or a pawn but an active participant in the back and forth between Art and Patrick. That, of course, is if we view all the characters as not polyamorous.
great comment!!! another moment that would back this view is the sauna scene. when art admits he does find disturbing that tashi could be attracted to someone like patrick, that kinda reframes their falling out of touch during college. patrick rules out tashi's injury as a reason, art agrees. tashi's attraction mirrors art's own attraction to patrick. he's always the one being chased by patrick, as we literally see in their meeting at stanford's court. when they first meet tashi, there's this separation anxiety looming around them as their last season as a double ends while patrick realizes art and tashi will have a future together despite himself, at college. being with tashi can keep him between them both for a while, in one way or another, which i believe was always the best scenario in patrick's mind. art and patrick being jealous of one another, being into each other (and dealing with these feelings in their own ways), is one of the things luca wanted to achieve, as he states explicitly in his analysis of the churros scene. i do think the end is about art admiting he does miss patrick, and whatever he brings that was missing from his game, especially when he and tashi couldn't channel that by themselves. therefore, i read it as an acceptance of his bisexuality as well. once those three meet each other, trying to play the hetero, monogamous game always ends up with all of them missing something. this plays into how bisexuality challenges these notions, and that's what this video kinda overlooks imo.
@@pyziotikr! That one and the original comment are exactly how I read the film. In my opinion, the characters definitely do lean towards poly but due to the heteronormative nature of our society plus their repression of their bisexuality (esp Art), they each latch onto Tashi ignoring the possibility that they could be romantically involved with each other as well. Now, I’m also of the opinion that Tashi is aware of their mutual attraction but instead of suggesting that they explore it, she also settles for monogamous relationships with each of them at different points. In a way I think she figured that as long as they were competing against each other, they would each reach their greatest potential. However, the course of the movie kind of shows that she was wrong. I think by the end she realizes this because their best tennis was when they were on the same page. I know a lot of people argue that after the film they should all be a throuple, but in my opinion it seemed as if Tashi’s character development would result in her growing from the stagnant relationships with both Art and Patrick.
i feel like challengers represents that you can show sexuality and eroticism without explicit sex, art and patrick didn't need to bang on camera for us to know that there was sexual tension
Literally, the whole movie can be summed up with this: Tashi sits down to watch Art and Patrick making out, or playing tennis, or both. I mean, it's quite obvious to me.
Even if they never have explicit sex in the film, I truly believe Art and Patrick are attracted to each other, as shown by their willingness to make out, their close talking and intimate body language, and the way they playfully tease each other. If that were between a guy and a girl, we'd label them a potential couple.
I think when we discuss sexuality so black and white it ignores completely the world in which Luca Guadagnino's films live in, it's a world of desire. the bisexuality is definitely there but its put there in subtle ways, Patricks character is definitely more showing of that, arts character on the other hand is clueless to why he wants or needs, but the desire is still there. Tashi is someone they can point all that pent up desire at, and for Art she can tell him what he wants even if it isn't truly that because he can't figure it out himself. Luca is much more complex than just slowing characters sitting round talking about being bisexual, its just fluid, same as bones and all or cmybn. both also bisexual films people tend to disregard as either a gay film or straight film with a little gay kissing.
@@bubbles4897 Luca has said it himself. Plus Elio has a relationship with a girl and enjoys sleeping with her till he realises his brewing feelings for Oliver. His feelings for Oliver are the only reason that relationship ends
Slight correction: bisexuality does not inherently center the gender binary. The bi in bi refers to two types of attraction: homosexual and heterosexual, not two genders. According to the bisexual manifesto, bi is an attraction to all genders with or without preference. Pansexuality is under the umbrella of bisexuality and simply clarifies that the person w this label does not experience preferences towards any gender.
thank you! it drives me crazy when people can't do simple research (like by googling the bisexual manifesto) and it really perpetuates harmful stereotypes towards the bisexual community.
to me patrick's reaction when tashi asked whether him and patrick had something going on at the hotel showed that at least for patrick there was something more than just platonic love that he felt for art
I disagree on saying the movie doesnt focus on sexuality, i actually think its a important part in the movie. even if patrick and art are not queer (wich i think they are) the movie still shows how patrick uses sexuality as a power toards art, in the way he so casualy explain how he tought art how to self pleasure (while art was clearly not comfortable talking abt the topic), or in the sauna scene were patrick is much more confident and comfortable with his nudity oposed to art who ask him to cover up
I mostly agree with your take, but I have to say that a relationship being sexually charged is what most people would describe as the defining characteristic that disqualifies it as being purely platonic. And while it doesn't prove anything one way or the other about Art and Patrick's relationship, we do see when Patrick is swiping through potential partners on his phone, there are men in that selection. The fact that he's dating men and women conclusively settles the question of whether or not Patrick is bisexual. I'm grateful I was not called upon to seriously opine whether the sexy churro eating qualified as foreplay lol.
I can see what you're saying and agree with you. I feel like most times, in real life and in fiction, straight men have quite homoerotic friendships with other men.......but those aren't sexually charged. They are sometimes more tender and affectionate, than the relationships they have with their wives, girlfriends and partners.......but never really sexually charged. Art and Patrick strike me as a duo that sooner or later, even if Tashi hadn't come into the picture, would be together in a non platonic way post adolescence, via one singular lustful encounter or maybe a series of such encounters that maybe develop into a full on relationship. That sexual tension would eventually, inevitably, lead into a sudden outburst or long delayed release. Patrick would always come out of this new era of their relationship, just as assured of his sexual identity as he was before it.......but I can Art being the kind of bi/pan man who stays a bit longer in the closet to himself and others. Art strikes me as a victim of heteronormativy, who maybe is aware of the benefits that it has, but has not investigated the ways in which it has poisoned his idea of self and his relationship, romantic and otherwise, with other people. Anyways I find their relationship endlessly fascinanting. What did you think of Tashi as a characther? And do you have any thoughts about her sexual identity ?
@@MB-io2lk Tashi loves tennis overall. Over the boys. She likes the boys not because of themselves but it’s a way for her to have a romantic relationship with tennis. The boys could be any tennis player if they have similar talent or drive to play tennis.
@@MB-io2lk I sum up the movie in the following way: Tashi sits down and watch Art and Patrick making out, or playing tennis, or both. She is an 'active spectator', someone who watches but who also creates the conditions for the occurring of the scene she is watching. Her 'voyeurism' is indeed very enigmatic. What does she really want, out of life? A mistery...
Love this video dude!!! I got extremely excited at 12:00 when you say out loud something I have ALWAYS struggled to explain (when I shouldn't) to some people about the nature of my feelings towards some of my male friends
I think the relationship we see between Art and Patrick is platonic at present, but I think it is clear that Patrick considers that there was something there, because when Tashi asks if they ever were together Patrick says yes. This and Patrick having both men and women available in Tinder proves to me that Patrick is bi, although you could speculate if it ever was reciprocated by Art (I think not).
Thank you for this video, it is very well put together. I deeply appreciated the explanations of bisexuality and bi-erasure rather than just analysing the film.
All jokes aside, excellent video. I also very much appreciate the fact that you brought up healthy depictions of non-patriarchal close friendships between men, and how these are just as important in fiction as depictions of queer male sexual/romantic relationships, it’s definitely a topic I believe gets overlooked too much in our excitement to see the later.
@ville__ so is being straight-well, both of them are less of a choice than they are constructs of conditioning and unique biological factors, but it depends how you define, “choice”, conscious or unconscious.
Nah you see, "good representation" specially of bisexuals is often a fucking terrible watch, this is extremely bi. Luca Guadagnino has said himself "they go back to the hotel together". Also, they kiss? like pretty intensely? are we forgetting that?
i truly believe that maaaybe justin kuritzkes intended for patrick to be "cannonically bi", but luca, josh, and mike saw that and cranked the bi subtext to 10
I see Challengers as an intimacy triangle, the three characters are connected and driven by the degrees of intimacy (which can shift into emotional, sexual, fraternal and amourous, according to circunstances) they share with each other, either all three together or in any of the three pairings.
i think this movie could've been more queer, but i still absolutely loved it. the actors did a great job at making each relationship come to life. i find luca's lack of confirmation on wether this movie is queer a bit disappointing, but art and patrick's feelings for another are clear (in my opinion). i see people say "they're jealous because they both want tashi", and some people say "they're jealous because they want to be with each other". i think it's both. these three characters all need each other in a way, with patrick and art being repressed, art and tashi resenting each other, and patrick and tashi egging each other on. without all three of them, their relationship doesn't work. also: while there aren't any sex scenes, to the characters, tennis is like sex.
i think male close friendships should be celebrated and accepted but the vibes i got from this film were more like tashi being a trophy the two passed around instead of releasing their repressed feelings for one another.. meaning there had to be something more they felt.. the entire film follows the three of them clinging onto this toxic relationship and triangle because they have such a deep attachment and codependence on each other.. i also don't agree that sexual intimacy in friendships shld be normalized? yes thats common in female friendships but thats also why wlw relationships are never taken seriously.. bc straight women will be all flirty w their bsfs and/or queer women without any romantic intent.
If either Patrick or Art were a girl, there would be no question as to whether they have romantic/sexual feelings to each other, and that's why I say they're bisexual. If a boy and a girl who were best friends made out, taught each other how to self-pleasure, etc... then people would be calling anyone who interprets their relationship as strictly platonic to be reaching. I do think that there is a deep platonic foundation to their relationship, but there is also romantic and sexual aspects to their relationship as well.
I didn’t realize it might be frustrating for bisexual people ☹️. I did like the idea that they had an intense platonic friendship. I want an intense platonic friendship.
So the way I read the film was that Tashi loves Patrick, Patrick loves Art, and Art loves Tashi. I think that sometimes when you are obsessed with someone that you’re in love with but can’t have, you seek out the object of their obsession. Patrick fucks Tashi multiple times in the film, but it’s clear that he doesn’t love her. Hear me out. The way that Patrick looks at Art, is the way that Art looks at Tashi, which is the way that she looks at Patrick. The only interests Patrick shows Tashi is to take digs at Art. But also, in the sexual tension between the two of them. At the first meet in 2006, in the hotel room, eating the churro, in the sauna. Being a man and not being able to with the woman you love romantically and or sexually because she’s moved on, is NOT the same thing as not being able to be romantically or sexually involved with a man you love, because he’s not Gay/Bi. The best way to get close to Art at that point, is to be with Tashi.
I do think that Patrick loves Art AND Tashi but in different ways. Patrick and Tashi share a very fiery passionate connection while he is more gentle with Art. But Patrick also tells Tashi while they are cuddling after hooking up in his car that he has missed her, sweetly kisses her head and asks her if she's sure that all she wants is simply for him to lose to Art. Tashi replies that she can't wish for anything else, not thinking that polyamory can be an alternative. Patrick has loved Art since they were little boys and Art's refusal to accept that the feelings were reciprocated deeply hurts Patrick. Art telling Patrick that he didn't matter was a stab to his heart. Tashi is the person that can convince Art that it's ok to accept his feelings for Patrick, just like she was the one that convinced them to talk about their sexual experiences together and encouraged them to kiss. She was also the one that forced Art to play in a tournament that she knew would have Patrick because she knew Patrick was the person that could reignite Art's passion
I don't usually comment, but I have to disagree with your concern that these close straight friendships have not been allowed. These types of friendships are clearly the majority in the world of film and tv. ex/Fast and the Furious, Abed and Troy from Community, etc... lol. To say that our society does not allow them to be close and caring is repeating a homophobic belief spilled by conservatives who believe that the worst thing they could be called or identified as is gay. And if there is speculation or even confirmation, how does that not allow them to still be close friends? Are romantic partners not still close friends? Furthermore, What does it matter if they are called gay? Why should men care whether they are speculated as gay or bi, or queer? The writers know how the characters identify or even how real life people id themselves, and that should be enough. It is making a mountain of a molehill. The focus should be less on addressing the issue of not "allowing straight male friends to be close" and more on getting rid of any care by society as to its importance. Close male friends are not at risk here. and if they are, you fail to mention that it's not due to speculation of queerness but rather homophobia by the current hegemonic powers at be. Unfortunately, your idea of this "issue" of straight male friends not being able to be "close' is heteronormative and unnecessary and ironically perpetuates ideas of toxic masculinity. Also, you say there can be "incredibly close sexually charged friendships" and have it not be queer. This is a contradiction. By definition, sexually charged implies sexual attraction and desire, and since they are of the same gender experiencing this charged sexuality, it is a direct example of queerness! These close male friendships can exist without being queer, but they cannot exist as nonqueer if they are "sexually charged," as this would directly relate to sexuality and queerness rather than just the closeness of platonic friendship. And that's ok. If all close straight male friendships were considered gay, what does it matter? Does that mean they should stop being close? What makes these friendships harder? People speculating they are queer or the idea that its shameful to be queer at all?
thank you so much for saying this! people always, always make a fuss about how the sacred and rare friendships between straight men whenever anyone even dares to suggest that those men might have a romantic/sexual interest in each other; like them being queer desecrates the holiness of straight-male friendships, because you know, two male friends can be close and intimate without being GAY. why do we, the queers, always have to make everything about sexuality! no one is saying that two guys can't be friends without them being romantically and/or sexually attracted to each other, but like you say, why would it matter at all, unless it was considered shameful to be queer? it's also really funny because no one makes this much of a fuss about things when guys and girls are speculated to be interested in each other non-platonically in media. yes, there are people who become frustrated with that, but it's not the response of a majority of people. in general, it passes without notice, but god forbid someone suggests a non-cishet pairing.
D.H. Lawrence's novel "Women in Love" -- first published 100 years ago -- explores, in part, the importance of close friendships between straight men. The movie depiction of the novel included an amazing scene of two male friends -- played by Oliver Reed and Alan Bates -- privately wrestling, in the nude, late at night, by firelight, behind doors that were closed and locked. That scene, by any measure, is extremely hot. Ironically, however, Bates -- in real life -- was a closeted homosexual.
Very true what you said. Look at how even the State Department (which has LGBT flags in many of its embassies) ridiculed Xi and Putin for their affectionate hug. The hypocrisy made me cringe.
Great essay! There’s definitely much to discuss (which is great). I do believe it opens really interesting conversations regarding male bonding + homoeroticism and power/sex dynamics. One of the things I was taking about with my friends was: then why do both men kiss on the hotel scene? I don’t buy that they think Tashi is still there while they’re kissing. I also don’t think it necessarily means they are bisexual. But, would straight men do that? They finish kissing and it’s not even a big deal for them. So, where’s the line?
Bi film of the year, as if they were many films lmao, It was a clearly a love triangle, it was superb, the film was a as bisexual as it can be, also as a bi girl I felt bi panic.. as if it was meant to be intentional, men can be close but the kiss scene on the threesome was very pointy towards gay/bi love and others scenes that were clearly suggestive and intentionally gay.. loved the film, love is intense and it can change your life..
„An intense romantic friendship that escalates beyond platonic actions“ is so scatterbrained I cant believe you thought that sentence makes sense. You don’t seem clear on basic definitions of words.
i honestly wouldn't say that this film isn't about the characters' sexualities? like their desire for each other and what that means is a pretty big driving point of the film. while yes, media centered around sexuality can and often do portray "coming-of-age" narratives with explicit discussions about identities and terminology and all that, they don't always look like that. sometimes it looks like a parallel between you spitting chewed up gum into your wife's hand before a game, the same as you've done with your best friend so long ago. and like another comment pointed out, i don't think audiences speculating about queer goings on between two male characters in a work of fiction undermines and erases platonic relationships between men lol i mean, are you even really friends if you weren't a little gay for your homies?
Thank you for this lovely, thoughtful, essay/video. You've probably read Kinsey's landmark 1948 study Sexual Behavior in the Human Male. It is still unprecedented in its scope, studies, interviews, etc. Of course many people were and still are horrified by the incontrovertible truths the book reveals. Students (and teachers) these days have never heard of it (although there was a rather good movie about Kinsey and his studies some years ago). But the book stands as it is, a landmark beacon of telling it as it is, as they say. :)
@@aisherwasher6959 No. It is the general population; sure, some prostitutes were included; everyone was. I have the book. The public (like you now) in 1948 simply could not accept the long suppressed truth about what men were really up to.
@@aisherwasher6959 No. Sure, there were some male prostitutes, but there were some of everyone. I have the book. I also have James H. Jones' authoritative, exhaustive 1997 study on Kinsey called simply Alfred C. Kinsey: A Public/Private Life. If you really have an interest in the subject, why don't you check either or both out--
12:33 Actually, no If an interaction is *sexually Charged* on your end, you are by definition atracted to this person. it could be based on their personality alone, but if your brain architecture doesn't support that, *Friendship & Intimacy* will not be driving factors there on your end.
I think the whole sexuality thing is all Luca doing because the script is not really about three of them, it is about how one man either Art or Patrick can't give what Tashi wanted in life so she has to have both of them around in her life. Art in the script can't even get it up naturally with Tashi and there is zero sexual tension between him and Patrick whatsoever.
Oh yeah, after all Cinema is a visual medium and Luca definitely helped with his masterful storytelling, the churro scene comes to mind; they are so close to the other, Patrick pulls the seat closer, Art brushes the sugar off his face; things that in the script are missing and not even remotely mentioned, they are only fighting.
Why are people in the comment section so offended lol he didn't claim that it's not a bisexual movie he's just saying that there is much more depth to it than just labeling it a bi or hetero or homosexual or blahblahblah And it's true westerners are much more quick to label someone or behaviors of someone as gay when it involves physical intimacy and such when in asia, it's just a normal interaction between two really close same sex friends. As an asian myself it really seems like straight males in western countries try SO HARD to prove that they are not gay their entire life 😂 So while I think Patrick is definitely bi, he also falls into this ambiguity where he is sexually attracted to Art, but also just really want him as a person and as his best friend, not necessarily aspiring this relationship to be a "thing" between lovers. So I get what the speaker is saying.
How come do you talk about erasure of bisexual representation in media but just after that diminish the bisexuality in the movie, which presents perfect example of fluidity in sexual and romantic relationships?
A very interesting and well written video ! As a bi film geek, who's always looking for interesting and well thought out bi/ pan charactheres I found CHALLENGERS to be an entertaining and captivating sports drama......with a love triangle that unfortunately in my opinion features 2 great performances. The Tashi characther felt a bit underwritten, but beyond that Zendaya's performance was the weak link of this film's main trio. Neverthless I've been thinking a lot about Art and Patrick's complex relationship and where will it go after the finale scene. Keep up the good work! 😊
Although it can be said that Tashi is the weaker part of the triangle. She is the catalyst. In tennis the boys are the players and Tashi is the ball. None of them would do anything if not for her. The boys wouldn’t engage with their desires for each other if she didn’t start it. Although it may seem like she’s weaker, they can’t do it without her.
@@Lisanalguib I think it's crazy how anyone can come out of the film thinking Tashi is underwritten or the weaker part of the triangle considering how much of a driving force she was behind everything (which also stemmed from her own tragedy).
I think that the video poses a false dilemma. Either Patrick and Art are bisexual, or they are just close friends. Why is this a false dilemma? Because it assumes that both of them are either one thing or the other. My impression is that Patrick is the only bisexual one. So, basically, the 'triangle' is with Art loving Tashi, who has sexual feelings for Patrick, who is sexually attractred to both. The movie is full of clues. When they first met Tashi, Art says that Patrick has a girlfriend, but he really doesn't care about her at all and he gladly spend all of his free time with Art. There is the Tinder scene. The way he eats a banana while looking at Patrick is kind of suggesting. Finally, he goes full bare in the sauna, literally 'swinging it' in front of Art. Art seems displease, he askes him to cover up and that he is not 'intimidated' by Patrick's penis. But I don't think Patrick was trying to 'intimidate' him, I think he was trying to seduce him!
This is NOT a bisexual movie at all. No one in the film is queer or bi. This is a movie about love, desire and competition. Based on the ending " love wins" is the overall theme but the competitive emphasis of the world they're in creates a break between choosing loyalty or love over winning. Men loving each other in a platonic way isn't queer. This examination is made through the lense of how the US views the spectrum of attachment but in so many other countries being attracted to your friend does not equal queer. That "attraction" also has a spectrum and it's not necessarily sexual, it has to do with attachment and surprise men get attached to each other even when they're straight.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
You fail to mention the short scene, in the last quarter of the film, where we briefly see the Tinder choices on Patrick’s phone. The suggestion is that he has been hooking up with men as well as women, often to find a room to sleep in.
That was a good one
yes, to me at least patrick is bi
Patrick is definitely open to messing around with men but the tinder swipe was him doing whatever it took to find a place to sleep for the night. That's what i got from it. He probably just leans more towards females .
@@sullenca EXACTLY! THERE WAS ALSO HESITATION.
@ville__••• telling you to jump would be too low for me, sorry... You're hopeless.
hello, bisexual expert here. this movie is 100% a bisexual movie.
please elaborate !😅
Another bisexual expert here. Hard agree!
I have a bachelor in bisexuality, I do agree with you
I am currently receiving my PhD in bisexuality and have decided to study this film for my dissertation. Need I say more?
I'm also a bisexual expert and I disagree....I'd say it 1000% bisexual
jury is out on art, but patrick is explicitly bi or at least queer. the confirmation is the locker room scene when he swipes on tinder. not only does he check out the athlete next to him but he swipes right on a man.
on the subtext line, patrick shows his love for art through his actions. the chair pull, the thigh grab, the gum catch, the multiple kisses. when he asks art in the sauna “i dont matter?….. im not talking about tennis.” that was his confession; or at least him letting down his walls enough to know if art cares about him like he cares for art.
Not only is this movie very bisexual, it is also extremely polyamorous. All the people who feel "queerbaited" by this film are viewing it through a monogamous lens.
100% THIS!
Missing the saying that tennis is a metaphor for s3x or a relationship.
@@Shampoo13like there are no sex scenes but you cannot watch this with your family, that should tell you enough
I think male friendship is beautiful, but I think this movie make his point of showing that there were something more between Patrick and Art. They are in a messy love triangle after all.
Yep. Life is messy sometimes; I agree with you.
Luka also said that this is a love triangle but one where all corners touch.
Because they kissed in 1 scene and it was never brought up again?
@@lamikiminach9503 there’s more to that in the film than just the kiss scene. I watched it a few times to really see what the director and screenwriter were trying to convey. They both say that these two were romantic and platonic
Gotta love that Luca! He gave us Timothee and Call Me by Your Name and changed my life.
I also think that one potential read of the movie is that Art and Patrick, mostly Art, are using Tashi because they don't know how to place their feelings for each other.
When retelling their first sexual interaction, Art tells Tashi that they were both thinking about another girl, one who also injured herself, a parallel eerily similar to Tashi. Which, and this is straight up speculation, could have been a lie, at least on Patricks part. Imagine telling your best friend you were beating it thinking about him. It would be the classic motif of queer men using straight women as shields.
Tashi however, unlike the girl from the story, continued in the field of tennis even after her injuries, albeit as a coach. She has agency in this weird dance that Art and Patrick are performing.
She is the one calling herself a homewrecker, she makes them kiss on purpose, she gets satisfaction from them playing 'good tennis', a metaphor plainly laid out in the movie for being in love (potentially more). She flips the cliché on its head, not a damsel or a pawn but an active participant in the back and forth between Art and Patrick.
That, of course, is if we view all the characters as not polyamorous.
I think the fact both guys get hard ons watching her play makes it clear the boys are both physically attracted to women.
good read
great comment!!!
another moment that would back this view is the sauna scene. when art admits he does find disturbing that tashi could be attracted to someone like patrick, that kinda reframes their falling out of touch during college. patrick rules out tashi's injury as a reason, art agrees. tashi's attraction mirrors art's own attraction to patrick. he's always the one being chased by patrick, as we literally see in their meeting at stanford's court.
when they first meet tashi, there's this separation anxiety looming around them as their last season as a double ends while patrick realizes art and tashi will have a future together despite himself, at college. being with tashi can keep him between them both for a while, in one way or another, which i believe was always the best scenario in patrick's mind. art and patrick being jealous of one another, being into each other (and dealing with these feelings in their own ways), is one of the things luca wanted to achieve, as he states explicitly in his analysis of the churros scene. i do think the end is about art admiting he does miss patrick, and whatever he brings that was missing from his game, especially when he and tashi couldn't channel that by themselves. therefore, i read it as an acceptance of his bisexuality as well.
once those three meet each other, trying to play the hetero, monogamous game always ends up with all of them missing something. this plays into how bisexuality challenges these notions, and that's what this video kinda overlooks imo.
@@alsoinadream you are soooo right my god!!! one of my favorite readings of the film i've encountered
@@pyziotikr! That one and the original comment are exactly how I read the film. In my opinion, the characters definitely do lean towards poly but due to the heteronormative nature of our society plus their repression of their bisexuality (esp Art), they each latch onto Tashi ignoring the possibility that they could be romantically involved with each other as well. Now, I’m also of the opinion that Tashi is aware of their mutual attraction but instead of suggesting that they explore it, she also settles for monogamous relationships with each of them at different points. In a way I think she figured that as long as they were competing against each other, they would each reach their greatest potential. However, the course of the movie kind of shows that she was wrong. I think by the end she realizes this because their best tennis was when they were on the same page. I know a lot of people argue that after the film they should all be a throuple, but in my opinion it seemed as if Tashi’s character development would result in her growing from the stagnant relationships with both Art and Patrick.
i feel like challengers represents that you can show sexuality and eroticism without explicit sex, art and patrick didn't need to bang on camera for us to know that there was sexual tension
To me, Art and Patrick were literally soulmates. With or without sexual attraction, their love for each other was always gping to exist
Literally, the whole movie can be summed up with this: Tashi sits down to watch Art and Patrick making out, or playing tennis, or both. I mean, it's quite obvious to me.
Even if they never have explicit sex in the film, I truly believe Art and Patrick are attracted to each other, as shown by their willingness to make out, their close talking and intimate body language, and the way they playfully tease each other. If that were between a guy and a girl, we'd label them a potential couple.
I think when we discuss sexuality so black and white it ignores completely the world in which Luca Guadagnino's films live in, it's a world of desire. the bisexuality is definitely there but its put there in subtle ways, Patricks character is definitely more showing of that, arts character on the other hand is clueless to why he wants or needs, but the desire is still there. Tashi is someone they can point all that pent up desire at, and for Art she can tell him what he wants even if it isn't truly that because he can't figure it out himself. Luca is much more complex than just slowing characters sitting round talking about being bisexual, its just fluid, same as bones and all or cmybn. both also bisexual films people tend to disregard as either a gay film or straight film with a little gay kissing.
EXACTLY
Bones and all has gay kissing in it???
How in the hell is call me by your name a bisexual film. Now that’s just denying the pure gayness of that film
@@bubbles4897 yes Timmy makes out with a guy at the funfair and touches him down there.
@@bubbles4897 Luca has said it himself. Plus Elio has a relationship with a girl and enjoys sleeping with her till he realises his brewing feelings for Oliver. His feelings for Oliver are the only reason that relationship ends
Art and Patrick made out idk that’s kinda gay
Edit: it’s kinda bi
No, it's bisexual!
@@f1mbultyr yes! You’re right!
Slight correction: bisexuality does not inherently center the gender binary. The bi in bi refers to two types of attraction: homosexual and heterosexual, not two genders. According to the bisexual manifesto, bi is an attraction to all genders with or without preference. Pansexuality is under the umbrella of bisexuality and simply clarifies that the person w this label does not experience preferences towards any gender.
thank you! it drives me crazy when people can't do simple research (like by googling the bisexual manifesto) and it really perpetuates harmful stereotypes towards the bisexual community.
@@zz100kk no problem 💕
The bi in bisexual is not about two genders. It's about two sexualities, because we are both gay and straight!
Gay and straight are defined by gender; you cant be for real.
to me patrick's reaction when tashi asked whether him and patrick had something going on at the hotel showed that at least for patrick there was something more than just platonic love that he felt for art
I disagree on saying the movie doesnt focus on sexuality, i actually think its a important part in the movie. even if patrick and art are not queer (wich i think they are) the movie still shows how patrick uses sexuality as a power toards art, in the way he so casualy explain how he tought art how to self pleasure (while art was clearly not comfortable talking abt the topic), or in the sauna scene were patrick is much more confident and comfortable with his nudity oposed to art who ask him to cover up
I mostly agree with your take, but I have to say that a relationship being sexually charged is what most people would describe as the defining characteristic that disqualifies it as being purely platonic. And while it doesn't prove anything one way or the other about Art and Patrick's relationship, we do see when Patrick is swiping through potential partners on his phone, there are men in that selection. The fact that he's dating men and women conclusively settles the question of whether or not Patrick is bisexual. I'm grateful I was not called upon to seriously opine whether the sexy churro eating qualified as foreplay lol.
I can see what you're saying and agree with you. I feel like most times, in real life and in fiction, straight men have quite homoerotic friendships with other men.......but those aren't sexually charged. They are sometimes more tender and affectionate, than the relationships they have with their wives, girlfriends and partners.......but never really sexually charged. Art and Patrick strike me as a duo that sooner or later, even if Tashi hadn't come into the picture, would be together in a non platonic way post adolescence, via one singular lustful encounter or maybe a series of such encounters that maybe develop into a full on relationship. That sexual tension would eventually, inevitably, lead into a sudden outburst or long delayed release. Patrick would always come out of this new era of their relationship, just as assured of his sexual identity as he was before it.......but I can Art being the kind of bi/pan man who stays a bit longer in the closet to himself and others. Art strikes me as a victim of heteronormativy, who maybe is aware of the benefits that it has, but has not investigated the ways in which it has poisoned his idea of self and his relationship, romantic and otherwise, with other people.
Anyways I find their relationship endlessly fascinanting. What did you think of Tashi as a characther? And do you have any thoughts about her sexual identity ?
@@MB-io2lk Tashi loves tennis overall. Over the boys. She likes the boys not because of themselves but it’s a way for her to have a romantic relationship with tennis. The boys could be any tennis player if they have similar talent or drive to play tennis.
@@MB-io2lk I sum up the movie in the following way: Tashi sits down and watch Art and Patrick making out, or playing tennis, or both. She is an 'active spectator', someone who watches but who also creates the conditions for the occurring of the scene she is watching. Her 'voyeurism' is indeed very enigmatic. What does she really want, out of life? A mistery...
I definitely read the two men as bi.
Love this video dude!!! I got extremely excited at 12:00 when you say out loud something I have ALWAYS struggled to explain (when I shouldn't) to some people about the nature of my feelings towards some of my male friends
I think the relationship we see between Art and Patrick is platonic at present, but I think it is clear that Patrick considers that there was something there, because when Tashi asks if they ever were together Patrick says yes. This and Patrick having both men and women available in Tinder proves to me that Patrick is bi, although you could speculate if it ever was reciprocated by Art (I think not).
Thank you for this video, it is very well put together. I deeply appreciated the explanations of bisexuality and bi-erasure rather than just analysing the film.
I wish there was more scene analysis rather than just terminology discussion
All jokes aside, excellent video. I also very much appreciate the fact that you brought up healthy depictions of non-patriarchal close friendships between men, and how these are just as important in fiction as depictions of queer male sexual/romantic relationships, it’s definitely a topic I believe gets overlooked too much in our excitement to see the later.
@ville__ so is being straight-well, both of them are less of a choice than they are constructs of conditioning and unique biological factors, but it depends how you define, “choice”, conscious or unconscious.
Nah you see, "good representation" specially of bisexuals is often a fucking terrible watch, this is extremely bi. Luca Guadagnino has said himself "they go back to the hotel together". Also, they kiss? like pretty intensely? are we forgetting that?
i truly believe that maaaybe justin kuritzkes intended for patrick to be "cannonically bi", but luca, josh, and mike saw that and cranked the bi subtext to 10
I see Challengers as an intimacy triangle, the three characters are connected and driven by the degrees of intimacy (which can shift into emotional, sexual, fraternal and amourous, according to circunstances) they share with each other, either all three together or in any of the three pairings.
i think this movie could've been more queer, but i still absolutely loved it. the actors did a great job at making each relationship come to life. i find luca's lack of confirmation on wether this movie is queer a bit disappointing, but art and patrick's feelings for another are clear (in my opinion). i see people say "they're jealous because they both want tashi", and some people say "they're jealous because they want to be with each other". i think it's both. these three characters all need each other in a way, with patrick and art being repressed, art and tashi resenting each other, and patrick and tashi egging each other on. without all three of them, their relationship doesn't work.
also: while there aren't any sex scenes, to the characters, tennis is like sex.
i think male close friendships should be celebrated and accepted but the vibes i got from this film were more like tashi being a trophy the two passed around instead of releasing their repressed feelings for one another.. meaning there had to be something more they felt.. the entire film follows the three of them clinging onto this toxic relationship and triangle because they have such a deep attachment and codependence on each other.. i also don't agree that sexual intimacy in friendships shld be normalized? yes thats common in female friendships but thats also why wlw relationships are never taken seriously.. bc straight women will be all flirty w their bsfs and/or queer women without any romantic intent.
Labels might be helpful sometimes but we don't need them
If either Patrick or Art were a girl, there would be no question as to whether they have romantic/sexual feelings to each other, and that's why I say they're bisexual. If a boy and a girl who were best friends made out, taught each other how to self-pleasure, etc... then people would be calling anyone who interprets their relationship as strictly platonic to be reaching. I do think that there is a deep platonic foundation to their relationship, but there is also romantic and sexual aspects to their relationship as well.
If all three sides had equal attaction, than it would be a live triangle.
Patrick is canonically bi tho
I didn’t realize it might be frustrating for bisexual people ☹️. I did like the idea that they had an intense platonic friendship. I want an intense platonic friendship.
The one true love triangle is Guts-Casca -Griffith from Berserk
If for some reason we are cursed with getting a live action Berserk, I will only accept Luca Guadagino as the director
So the way I read the film was that Tashi loves Patrick, Patrick loves Art, and Art loves Tashi. I think that sometimes when you are obsessed with someone that you’re in love with but can’t have, you seek out the object of their obsession. Patrick fucks Tashi multiple times in the film, but it’s clear that he doesn’t love her. Hear me out. The way that Patrick looks at Art, is the way that Art looks at Tashi, which is the way that she looks at Patrick. The only interests Patrick shows Tashi is to take digs at Art. But also, in the sexual tension between the two of them. At the first meet in 2006, in the hotel room, eating the churro, in the sauna. Being a man and not being able to with the woman you love romantically and or sexually because she’s moved on, is NOT the same thing as not being able to be romantically or sexually involved with a man you love, because he’s not Gay/Bi. The best way to get close to Art at that point, is to be with Tashi.
I agree with you.
I do think that Patrick loves Art AND Tashi but in different ways. Patrick and Tashi share a very fiery passionate connection while he is more gentle with Art. But Patrick also tells Tashi while they are cuddling after hooking up in his car that he has missed her, sweetly kisses her head and asks her if she's sure that all she wants is simply for him to lose to Art. Tashi replies that she can't wish for anything else, not thinking that polyamory can be an alternative. Patrick has loved Art since they were little boys and Art's refusal to accept that the feelings were reciprocated deeply hurts Patrick. Art telling Patrick that he didn't matter was a stab to his heart. Tashi is the person that can convince Art that it's ok to accept his feelings for Patrick, just like she was the one that convinced them to talk about their sexual experiences together and encouraged them to kiss. She was also the one that forced Art to play in a tournament that she knew would have Patrick because she knew Patrick was the person that could reignite Art's passion
@@nataliajimenez1870 Agreed! Really nicely laid out
I don't usually comment, but I have to disagree with your concern that these close straight friendships have not been allowed. These types of friendships are clearly the majority in the world of film and tv. ex/Fast and the Furious, Abed and Troy from Community, etc... lol. To say that our society does not allow them to be close and caring is repeating a homophobic belief spilled by conservatives who believe that the worst thing they could be called or identified as is gay. And if there is speculation or even confirmation, how does that not allow them to still be close friends? Are romantic partners not still close friends? Furthermore, What does it matter if they are called gay? Why should men care whether they are speculated as gay or bi, or queer? The writers know how the characters identify or even how real life people id themselves, and that should be enough. It is making a mountain of a molehill. The focus should be less on addressing the issue of not "allowing straight male friends to be close" and more on getting rid of any care by society as to its importance. Close male friends are not at risk here. and if they are, you fail to mention that it's not due to speculation of queerness but rather homophobia by the current hegemonic powers at be. Unfortunately, your idea of this "issue" of straight male friends not being able to be "close' is heteronormative and unnecessary and ironically perpetuates ideas of toxic masculinity. Also, you say there can be "incredibly close sexually charged friendships" and have it not be queer. This is a contradiction. By definition, sexually charged implies sexual attraction and desire, and since they are of the same gender experiencing this charged sexuality, it is a direct example of queerness! These close male friendships can exist without being queer, but they cannot exist as nonqueer if they are "sexually charged," as this would directly relate to sexuality and queerness rather than just the closeness of platonic friendship. And that's ok. If all close straight male friendships were considered gay, what does it matter? Does that mean they should stop being close? What makes these friendships harder? People speculating they are queer or the idea that its shameful to be queer at all?
thank you so much for saying this! people always, always make a fuss about how the sacred and rare friendships between straight men whenever anyone even dares to suggest that those men might have a romantic/sexual interest in each other; like them being queer desecrates the holiness of straight-male friendships, because you know, two male friends can be close and intimate without being GAY. why do we, the queers, always have to make everything about sexuality! no one is saying that two guys can't be friends without them being romantically and/or sexually attracted to each other, but like you say, why would it matter at all, unless it was considered shameful to be queer?
it's also really funny because no one makes this much of a fuss about things when guys and girls are speculated to be interested in each other non-platonically in media. yes, there are people who become frustrated with that, but it's not the response of a majority of people. in general, it passes without notice, but god forbid someone suggests a non-cishet pairing.
D.H. Lawrence's novel "Women in Love" -- first published 100 years ago -- explores, in part, the importance of close friendships between straight men. The movie depiction of the novel included an amazing scene of two male friends -- played by Oliver Reed and Alan Bates -- privately wrestling, in the nude, late at night, by firelight, behind doors that were closed and locked. That scene, by any measure, is extremely hot. Ironically, however, Bates -- in real life -- was a closeted homosexual.
Very true what you said. Look at how even the State Department (which has LGBT flags in many of its embassies) ridiculed Xi and Putin for their affectionate hug. The hypocrisy made me cringe.
Great essay! There’s definitely much to discuss (which is great). I do believe it opens really interesting conversations regarding male bonding + homoeroticism and power/sex dynamics. One of the things I was taking about with my friends was: then why do both men kiss on the hotel scene? I don’t buy that they think Tashi is still there while they’re kissing. I also don’t think it necessarily means they are bisexual. But, would straight men do that? They finish kissing and it’s not even a big deal for them. So, where’s the line?
Bi film of the year, as if they were many films lmao, It was a clearly a love triangle, it was superb, the film was a as bisexual as it can be, also as a bi girl I felt bi panic.. as if it was meant to be intentional, men can be close but the kiss scene on the threesome was very pointy towards gay/bi love and others scenes that were clearly suggestive and intentionally gay.. loved the film, love is intense and it can change your life..
Patrick gives of bi vibes (I’m bi and he seems relatable)
i mean he literally swiped right on a guy so it's basically confirmed
I haven't seen this film, but it sounds like it has similar themes to "Chasing Amy".
„An intense romantic friendship that escalates beyond platonic actions“ is so scatterbrained I cant believe you thought that sentence makes sense. You don’t seem clear on basic definitions of words.
i honestly wouldn't say that this film isn't about the characters' sexualities? like their desire for each other and what that means is a pretty big driving point of the film. while yes, media centered around sexuality can and often do portray "coming-of-age" narratives with explicit discussions about identities and terminology and all that, they don't always look like that. sometimes it looks like a parallel between you spitting chewed up gum into your wife's hand before a game, the same as you've done with your best friend so long ago. and like another comment pointed out, i don't think audiences speculating about queer goings on between two male characters in a work of fiction undermines and erases platonic relationships between men lol i mean, are you even really friends if you weren't a little gay for your homies?
Thank you for this lovely, thoughtful, essay/video. You've probably read Kinsey's landmark 1948 study Sexual Behavior in the Human Male. It is still unprecedented in its scope, studies, interviews, etc. Of course many people were and still are horrified by the incontrovertible truths the book reveals. Students (and teachers) these days have never heard of it (although there was a rather good movie about Kinsey and his studies some years ago). But the book stands as it is, a landmark beacon of telling it as it is, as they say. :)
Those studies were conducted without random sampling and on prisoners and male prostitute and shouldnt be generalized to the full male population
@@aisherwasher6959 No. It is the general population; sure, some prostitutes were included; everyone was. I have the book. The public (like you now) in 1948 simply could not accept the long suppressed truth about what men were really up to.
@@aisherwasher6959 No. Sure, there were some male prostitutes, but there were some of everyone. I have the book. I also have James H. Jones' authoritative, exhaustive 1997 study on Kinsey called simply Alfred C. Kinsey: A Public/Private Life. If you really have an interest in the subject, why don't you check either or both out--
12:33
Actually, no If an interaction is *sexually Charged* on your end, you are by definition atracted to this person. it could be based on their personality alone, but if your brain architecture doesn't support that, *Friendship & Intimacy* will not be driving factors there on your end.
I think the whole sexuality thing is all Luca doing because the script is not really about three of them, it is about how one man either Art or Patrick can't give what Tashi wanted in life so she has to have both of them around in her life. Art in the script can't even get it up naturally with Tashi and there is zero sexual tension between him and Patrick whatsoever.
Oh yeah, after all Cinema is a visual medium and Luca definitely helped with his masterful storytelling, the churro scene comes to mind; they are so close to the other, Patrick pulls the seat closer, Art brushes the sugar off his face; things that in the script are missing and not even remotely mentioned, they are only fighting.
Why are people in the comment section so offended lol he didn't claim that it's not a bisexual movie he's just saying that there is much more depth to it than just labeling it a bi or hetero or homosexual or blahblahblah
And it's true westerners are much more quick to label someone or behaviors of someone as gay when it involves physical intimacy and such when in asia, it's just a normal interaction between two really close same sex friends. As an asian myself it really seems like straight males in western countries try SO HARD to prove that they are not gay their entire life 😂
So while I think Patrick is definitely bi, he also falls into this ambiguity where he is sexually attracted to Art, but also just really want him as a person and as his best friend, not necessarily aspiring this relationship to be a "thing" between lovers. So I get what the speaker is saying.
How come do you talk about erasure of bisexual representation in media but just after that diminish the bisexuality in the movie, which presents perfect example of fluidity in sexual and romantic relationships?
A very interesting and well written video ! As a bi film geek, who's always looking for interesting and well thought out bi/ pan charactheres I found CHALLENGERS to be an entertaining and captivating sports drama......with a love triangle that unfortunately in my opinion features 2 great performances. The Tashi characther felt a bit underwritten, but beyond that Zendaya's performance was the weak link of this film's main trio. Neverthless I've been thinking a lot about Art and Patrick's complex relationship and where will it go after the finale scene. Keep up the good work! 😊
Although it can be said that Tashi is the weaker part of the triangle. She is the catalyst. In tennis the boys are the players and Tashi is the ball. None of them would do anything if not for her. The boys wouldn’t engage with their desires for each other if she didn’t start it. Although it may seem like she’s weaker, they can’t do it without her.
Zendaya performance is usually the weakest link.
@@Lisanalguib I think it's crazy how anyone can come out of the film thinking Tashi is underwritten or the weaker part of the triangle considering how much of a driving force she was behind everything (which also stemmed from her own tragedy).
I think that the video poses a false dilemma. Either Patrick and Art are bisexual, or they are just close friends. Why is this a false dilemma? Because it assumes that both of them are either one thing or the other. My impression is that Patrick is the only bisexual one. So, basically, the 'triangle' is with Art loving Tashi, who has sexual feelings for Patrick, who is sexually attractred to both. The movie is full of clues. When they first met Tashi, Art says that Patrick has a girlfriend, but he really doesn't care about her at all and he gladly spend all of his free time with Art. There is the Tinder scene. The way he eats a banana while looking at Patrick is kind of suggesting. Finally, he goes full bare in the sauna, literally 'swinging it' in front of Art. Art seems displease, he askes him to cover up and that he is not 'intimidated' by Patrick's penis. But I don't think Patrick was trying to 'intimidate' him, I think he was trying to seduce him!
just so you know - the pronunciation is more like guadan-yino and not guadaninyo
Have you ever Heard about "el sexo de los ángeles"?🤔💁♂️
I really don't like queer coding films. Just show it.
I honestly felt queerbaited by this movie
how?
It sucks being bi-poly 😔
Ashley Scarlett, and Rhett
your voice is so even it sounds like AI lol
You mispronounce the director's name throughout the video...
Please get a native Italian speaker to help 😊😊
well.. no
This is NOT a bisexual movie at all. No one in the film is queer or bi. This is a movie about love, desire and competition. Based on the ending " love wins" is the overall theme but the competitive emphasis of the world they're in creates a break between choosing loyalty or love over winning. Men loving each other in a platonic way isn't queer. This examination is made through the lense of how the US views the spectrum of attachment but in so many other countries being attracted to your friend does not equal queer. That "attraction" also has a spectrum and it's not necessarily sexual, it has to do with attachment and surprise men get attached to each other even when they're straight.
i think all men should have hot gay sex with each other, and that's the way it should be^^and men can't love each other purely platonically, sorry.
@@dyingforeddiemunson i think youv been hitting the porn a bit too hard brainrot man
@@kar12894 😞😔 you're probably right, but i still stand by what i said.
Too bad the male actors are so blaaaahhh in this film.
Too much trouble no thanks. Get a grip.