I personally hate Age of Sigmar purely because it replaced Warhammer Fantasy. Not the actual game, I never played it myself, but the lore and story. I'm a huge collector of Warhammer literature of all sorts. I've read the Time of Legends, Gotrek & Felix, Thanquol & Boneripper, Brunner the Bounty Hunter, Blackhearts, the Vampire Wars, the Archaon series and many more. More than that, I just fell in love with the lore, and still regularly reads it to this this day. It was a world which inspired me, that has given me plenty of ideas. And then GW goes and throws it all in the dumbster with their rushed and poorly executed End Times nonsense. So many plotlines that will never be answered, so many characters whose final fate is never revealed beyond "and then he died", and so much potential wasted. This is what pisses me off the most, how my absolute favorite Fantasy world was lost in such a shitty way. I will admit, I would have been okay with the End Times if they handled it properly. If they took the time and effort to craft it in a consistent and believable fashion. But no, they needed to push Age of Sigmar out onto the market as quickly as possible, so End Times had to be wrapped up as fast as humanly possible, resulting in a huge clusterfuck that made little to no sense.
Whilst never reading the Old World lore I have to 100% agree with you. There was no reason to not continue with the Fantasy novels for example and a better ending may have left fans with a more fulfilled end. Thanks so much for watching and taking the time to comment.
It may have been before your time but did you ever come across the Warhammer global campaign "Storm of Chaos?" It was better written/handled than the End Times except for the conclusion. The SoC campaign creators/leaders wanted one thing but the fans wanted another, resulting in a comical collapse (if you could call it a conclusion at all). I was a huge collector of Warhammer literature so here are few questions that you can either answer or ignore... Although Fantasy has finished, would you be interested in a "Brunner" conclusion being released? Where Brunner get vengeance on his long time enemy, you probably know who I mean. Which Gotrek and Felix books did you like best or least? Did you have any favourite books, series or warhammer characters? Although you didn't ask, I'll give answers to the first two questions. Just so this seems even I suppose. I would love a Brunner final book where he achieves his final goal, and I would happily pay for a copy. I believe that it would be a very rewarding book. My favourite G&F books were "Skavenslayer," "Beastslayer" and perhaps "Vampireslayer." I disliked "Giantslayer" (King's last G&F book) and after reading "Manslayer" the next G&F book, I stopped reading G&F altogether. I don't like time travel in my books and the Kingless G&F books just seemed badly written to me. But that is probably only my tastes. Anyway, I would love to hear your views or the views of any-one reading this....
While I did not partake in the campaign (never actually played Fantasy as previously mentioned) I did read about that mess of a campaign. Chaos was supposed to be the big bad to threaten the world, but they kept losing battle after battle and barely made it out of their starting locations, forcing Games Workshop to improvise with some hilarious results. And yes, I would absolutely love a conclusion to Brunner's tale, for a chance at that final showdown. As to favorite Gotrek and Felix, I think it's gotta be Skavenslayer, purely because it gave us Grey Seer Thanquol. And I have to agree with you about the series, the quality seems to have been on a steady decline since King left the series. The last one I read was Zombieslayer (I believe that was it anyways, it's where they fight Heinrich Kemmler). Concerning favorite books, I've got several. For starters, we've got Valkia the Bloody, Riders of the Dead (though the ending disappointed me), the Blackhearts series, the Time of Legends series (all of them) and the Thanquol and Boneripper series.
Valkia the Bloody was a good book, what I liked about it (amongst other things) was how the book and people/plot continued after Valkia achieved her goal (apotheosis) and how one can see the personalities develop/grow over time. Regarding the "Time of Legends," I absolutely totally loved "The Sundering" (really loved it), I enjoyed only the last book of the "War of Vengeance" (Kyme's writing style doesn't hook me, I missed the middle book but I'm a big fan of Werner), I know that's weird and I only picked up the Legend of Sigmar yesterday. Nagash's legend was a bit too exotic for me, I'm not saying that its bad in any way, I just don't read Warhammer for the Tomb Kings. The Thanquol & Boneripper books have been good/great if I remember correctly, the parts with Thanquol within seemed a bit better than the parts without. But Thanquol is one of the most enjoyable characters of Warhammer, it is probably easy to keep him entertaining. He is one fantasy character whom almost everybody loves. It was a shame that the Witch Hunter books were never able to completely finish (as AoS jumped in) but most people believe that the first book was the best of the three. However I would like/love a Witch Hunter conclusion to happen. It won't happen, of course. Anyway, you don't need to remember these next books but did you ever read "Necromancer" or "The Enemy Within?" They focused more on character mindplay than on action, "Van Horstmann" tried to do something similar but it was a bit clumsy about it (not that I'm saying that Van Horstmann was bad). Also if I start chewing your ear off, let me know and I'll stop.
What I liked most about Valkia was that it gave us a glimpse into how life was for the Norscans whenever they were not rampaging in the south, made them seem more human and even sympathetic at times. While I adore all of them, my personal favorite has to be the Legend of Sigmar. It was just so interesting to read about the man that would one day be a god, to see not only his triumphs and great deeds, but also his mistakes and moments of weakness. Best part in the Thanquol and Boneripper series has to be Thanquol's Doom, where he meets both Ikit Claw and Queek Headtaker, and we get to see just how fucking stubborn the Dwarfs can be with new inventions. Sad to say that I'm not all that familiar with either of those works. I'll have to see if I can find them somewhere.
Warhammer fantasy was a deep exciting world to imagine. Like a lot of other players, my love for it started with Hero Quest, with a simple barbarian fighting through a dungeon. Then I read the Konrad Trilogy, which is still the gold standard for warhammer story telling. The world was dirty, corrupt, mysterious and in a strange way, believable. Now we have undying sigmarines in realms of light, in a universe the Hero Quest barbarian would have no place in... wipes away tear.
AOS is definitely not Fantasy as we know it. It doesn’t instantly make it bad (some of the early stuff was awful but it’s much better now) however to just throw it away like they did ... that’s a massive shame.
@@BlackJackLegacy When Age of Sigmar is not Warhammer Fantasy, why does it contain so many factions from Warhammer Fantasy, even characters? I'm not a Warhammer-Fan, even though I know Warhammer Fantasy from my friends in School, 30 years ago. I got interested in the lore by playing total war. Yet, seeing what they did to Fantasy and what it was "replaced" with, instantly puts me off. It makes no sense to "kill off" the entire old universe and franchise, only to put one half of its factions in the exact same manner into the new universe and just rebrand the other half. That is just bad and silly. For me Warhammer Fantasy with its characters and factions will be an anchor of interest, while I don't even know what to make of Age of Sigmar. Is it a parallel universe, is it the universe into which Archaon and its chaos-stuff spawned in from the void after destroying the old universe? Lore needs to be consistent and "parallel" universe shit is just that ... shit, the same bad stuff as alternate universes. The entire superhero branches are full of this shit and it is all so fucking bad. If GW would have pulled off an entire new universe and factions I would find that interesting, also converting all the old stuff into a complete new rule system, yes. But this? Even me as someone from the "outside" can just shake his head seeing this nonsense.
@@yosoy1loco the players in my area call it Age of Buffalo Bill (like silence of the Lambs) because it wears Warhammers skin because at the time those in power didnt like fantasy and wanted to try and get something out of the IP. so remember be weary of AoBB as it says "would you play me?, I'd play me."
I'm kinda sick of the "just play fantasy, if you like it". I would love to, but it's a dead game, and people tend to gravitate to the living games. If the player base was infinite, no problem! But it isn't...
I do appreciate that but if the game just doesn’t have the playerbase then maybe it’s time to look at other games. My comments were more aimed at the people who still yearn for it to come back but feel the need to put down other games and especially bash that game in forums or groups designed for fans of that game.
BlackJack Legacy Yeah, I get it. I build up an army over 10+ years, so I might still be a bit salty. ;) Edit: And I play all the games I get a chance to! Even AoS.
I agree.. it's GW that betrayed its fanbase, they saw a bigger market opportunity in the entry level crowd. Comprehensible but rude and potentially suicidal.. we'll see in the long run as they are doing the same with 40k, they simply adopted a more progressive and respectful approach (they did not penned off the dark angels or split them into 3 armies). Plus in many cases the sci-fi hardcore crowd already had switched to infinity and warmachine these days so on that front the problem is less pronounced. Anyway fantasy was the last bastion of the hardcore fantasy, it was not just another fantasy game. There currently ain't no substitute for it.
I think GW’s shares show they made the right “business decision” but did alienate a lot of people to do it. When they launched 8th edition 40K I think they learned a lot from the mess of Fantasy/AOS. Fantasy wise games like Kings of War and now Conquest are trying to fill that gap but the Warhammer Fantasy lore however is harder to replace.
I don't play tabletop, but I found the Old World had much better designs. Went to Games Workshop today with my Dad and it broke my heart when he asked where the Tomb Kings were.
I don't play the game, but I read the lore, and the old world lore is way better than the new age of sigmar, many special characters are now the gods of the new setting and many amazing character are in limbo or gone.
It will never happen Maybe the setting will be back. But not the 6e glory days. It will compete with Age of Sigmar and lead to both games suffering and dying.
IT AIN'T JUST THE GAME for goodness sake! The game is just one aspect of this "NEW" universe. People hate what GW did to years of beloved & well established lore. Only people defending this messy plot hole extravaganza are people like you who haven't even experienced WH fantasy for themselves!! That's a common trend with you AOS players! You don't even get it!! ,cause you didn't follow WHF for 20 years. I myself am a 40K guy. But I feel the fantasy guys' pain. They poured their hard earned cash (for near decades in some cases) into a hobby that is no longer supported. Specially since it has been replaced by an INFERIOR product!!! The new lore STILL feels like a cheap 40k knockoff!!! WTF are you people talking about?? These universes are NOT just all about the game and the models! They are far bigger than that....
I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make raven beast. I do completely understand why people are pissed at what happened. The point I’m making is that airing those views in an AOS Fan page doesn’t solve anything - saying one game is terrible doesn’t make the other game better and it goes both ways for AOS and Fantasy. I’m not a massive AOS player and as you say I never played Fantasy so don’t have an opinion on which is better. I also said that 32 years of Fantasy lore would be very difficult for AOS to compete against but that it is improving. Since I made this video the new Soul Wars set has been released and I do believe the lore has improved again but still has some way to go to challenge the legacy of Fantasy lore. Thanks for watching and commenting and I do appreciate seeing all sides of the conversation.
Let me help 1 dont do a vs unless you are willing to play both. 2 you claim it is the better of the two without any knowledge. 3 Stop doing videos that you have no intention of being involved. So your choice is to either pick up the game, wish I could but lost everything even thousands of dollars on Dwarven Army books Van Sarr gang. I saw a group play age of sigmar, it's a 40k knock off from the company that should know better. Or dont and understand this will continue.
I think you missed the point of the video. I never said one game was better than the other. I said that don’t put one game down to make the other seem better. I said players of both games were guilty of this. I never said at any point in this video that AOS was better than Fantasy.
@@BlackJackLegacy All I will say is till you experience it do not answer me. When you do, then say which you like better as you did say that more than once.
I don't really miss the game itself - I sold my Empire somewhere between 7th and 8th edition. But the lore... God damn... WHFB's lore was so good, you could read stories about it and have rpgs in it. It was for fantasy setting, what WH40k is for sci-fi. Grimdark, exciting, immersive. Age of Sigmar on the other hand..? Very generic mix of absolute mediocrity. Sanitized too, so more kids can play. Meh...
The lore for AOS has a long way to go to catch up to Fantasy however Fantasy has had a 30 year head start and the new AOS stuff is light years ahead of the initial stuff that was released at launch. It looks like AOS 2nd edition looks to be bringing in a big chunk of Fantasy inspired rules and magic so will be interesting to see how it pans out. Thanks for watching and commenting 👍🏼
@@BlackJackLegacy no sir. it is dull and inconsistent. All the idea of mortal realms is so confusing and messed up. THe High fantasy style is much less immersive than the grim and raw style of Old fantasy world .
yep it's not the rules.. GW destroyed an world that had a consistency and a richness that is just incomparable to what we were given. This is what we hate, not AOS. Most armies have been fragmented, others put together with complete disrespect for the lore, minis are now designed to be easy to paint (more "complicated" armies have fallen into oblivion.. empire.. high-elves... substituted by horrible golden space marines). It was an operation driven by accountants. U may appreciate AOS for its simplicity but simplicity could have been achieved without compromising what we had.
obviously GW decided they could not/did not want to compete with infinity, warmachine etc in terms of gameplay so they decided to abandon the hardcore crowd and concentrate on the newbies. Which is fine but kinda rude so no point in blaming it on us now. Apart from the fact that fantasy is arguably the area where Warhammer did not have strong competitors (apart from Hordes) so they could have tried to salvage what they had instead of giving up on their loyal fanbase and repaying them with the stormcast.
Hey Federico, I don’t blame the players for what happened I just think that those players (either Fantasy or AOS fans) don’t need to say that one game is terrible to try and prove the other is better. I don’t think the reason GW got rid of Fantasy was because of Hordes or Infinity. I just think traditional Fantasy just wasn’t as popular and the gap in sales between 40K and Fantasy proved this. It didn’t mean that Fantasy didn’t have a large fan base but maybe the sales just weren’t big enough for a company with shareholders to keep happy. It’s a shame it went the way it did without trying to update it to fit with a changing market but what’s done is done now O guess.
yes precisely, GW died long ago since it was quoted on the stock exchange. At that point it transformed into something different, it is not something we can complain about in 2018 (still that's the reason that informs GW's decisions today). I remember what it was at the beginning of the 90s when it mostly targeted Europe and it was driven by passion and not accountants. Concerning WHF the problem in my opinion was not the fantasy setting (they are currently rebooting the hobbit... total war Warhammer was a huge success as a videogame...) but the fact that WHF required lots of minis, a big investments in terms of money and painting time. Also it was far more complicated to play and paint than 40k. Here they are trying to go basic, to attract kids and teenagers: that's where their money is in their opinion. Fair enough but was it necessary to abandon the hardcore crowd? Was it necessary to make many old models unusable? Was it necessary to rename all armies and split them into little pointless mini armies? To put together dark elves and high elves? The only thing I am personally happy about is that the Chaos Dwarves are still a thing! Some new minis here and there still look ok (nighthaunt look great!). AOS casual games gan be fun actually. I am not protesting about the transition to a new game system in order to make more money, I am protesting against the way it was done.
I'm appalled at how many people have missed the point, entirely. I'd like to see people's reactions if you spent a long time building your house, and the historic value of the location inspired authors to write books about it, which we immensely popular within the community. You even had your friends help you to build said perfect house, and now you are invested economically, emotionally and with the amount of time you've spent on it, as well as being able to read about all the history associated with said location. Then one day, when you are nearly finished building, you find that someone has burnt down this house, and replaced it with a toilet and the people who did this are saying hey try it out it will be just as good, if not even better. Moreover, the historic value has now plummeted to the abyss because there is nothing more to write about so you can't even enjoy reading about what you used to build and enjoy. To pour salt on the wound, you have people like yourself who walk up and say hey this toilet is so easy to use, you don't have to build anything to use this toilet - they've never even attempted to build their own house, or have experienced the excitement that involves, but they come up to you and say to stop saying how bad the toilet is, you are somehow meant to ignore years of work and history and good times and amazing art/writing because THEY have suddenly dropped in and you should be grateful for it. You are suddenly meant to ignore perfectly natural points of view and reactions to what was basically shitting on your work, you're not meant to be salty about it. I'd like to see you not being salty after something like that. O and don't forget that these people who like the new toilet are telling you hey there's another plot by a swamp which you can go to start building again - you should just go there, plus its cheaper! I then point out the obvious fallacies in that argument when people like you say, oh but you can get together with fellow builders who have lost their projects to the same shit-show and pretend you're still building like the good old days. Do you see the hypocrisy and downright disrespect in these witless arguments that people like you make to WFB fans? Then you dare to compare AOS and WFB to 360s and XboxOnes? I have no words... Additionally, you cannot make a video comparing the two games if you haven't played WFB. Well, I want to see YOUR reaction if that ever happens, which frankly it won't. And, even by some miracle if it does, the new toilet never had the cultural impact, the economic impact, the storytelling impact and the community development impact that the house did so the loss won't feel half as bad. The utter disrespect is so obvious in common sense that is too obvious, like a COD nerd talking about how war is so cool to a Vietnam vet, triggering his PTSD - ok that was a shit comparison but the points is made. Good day, sir!
I'm currently getting into 40k tabletop, and a large part of why is the total war franchise making me love the lore of the universe. I've always been tangentially interested in GWs games. It feels really bad to only have this weird, watered-down version of the universe I fell in love with left when I finally arrive to engage with it.
Let me anwser that in a second: Because the blew up one game, to create space for another. So its a succesor. even tho its a completely different game. Doesnt matter how much you tell me its good or whatever, i liked fantasy, its not there anymore because of age of sigmar which is what people keep telling me to play instead.. So thats why we keep comparing. Im happy you are happy with age of sigmar. But maybe dont be a dick to those of us who would have no other problem with age of sigmar other then that they killed fantasy for it.. If it was released on the side no one would have this problem, no one would still be comparing. BTW before you talk to me about the rules, i barely play, i just love the old blocks more, i like how it looks on the table. I'm sure age of sigmar has its apeal. I just dont understand why they had to blow up the old world. Lots of people are still satly. And after the sheer amounts of money we put in, i think its fair we get to have expectations.
I completely appreciate your point of view and for what it’s worth I’m not a big AOS fan. I’ve played it but don’t play it anymore. I never played WFB and so I’m not comparing them. This was about people hating on one game in a place where fans of another are and that goes for both game systems. There was obviously business reasons why GW did what they did and their recent financial success would suggest from a purely business point of view they made the right decision but I can understand people’s anger after sinking time and money into a game only to have it no longer supported. That said I still stand by the fact that the game still exists and can be played - it’s just no longer supported. This was more about the fact that people feel the need to hate on one game to try and make their game sound better. In reality it’s not just limited to these two games. Whether you agree with me or not I do thank you for watching and taking the time to write a comment on how you feel. 👍🏼
It is surprising that the blew up Fantasy to make AoS when they did not have to do that to create 40k, or blow up 40k to make 30k. A quick fix would be to retcon the End Times as a false history for AoS. Put AoS in the Warp completely as a reflection of the Old World. The desires of the Chaos Gods created an illusion that tricked them.
@@jacobcaster exactly!! I'm not even angry they say chaos won. I'm the lore we know that the world has been restarted. We don't know if it's 10 or 400 times. But that's part of the lore. Chaos has always won. But there is no reason to stop supporting fantasy, the models are actually cheap to make once you have the molds. They can use the same tables in the stores. If they want to only sell it online that's fine. But I can't but empire Knights to finish my army anymore. Many other models are out of stock. Most stores don't welcome you anymore as fantasy players. And insist I should move on. But aos isn't the same. I like the big blocks. I don't need new models, plenty of armies that I could collect after the ones I started. But now I can't even finish...
To be fair, most people are not complaining about the game. It's what they did to the lore that pisses people off. Warhammer Fantasy had been handled horribly in the previous 2 seasons (7th and 8th), to the point that it was basically unplayable. I quit Fantasy around "Storm of Magic" because a single "new" model (a necrosphinx) was able to defeat my whole "old" army without problem. And there was nothing I could do to stop it. But the lore... well, to say that GW pissed all over the lore is an understatement. The End Times were a mockery of everything that was established until then, and to make things worse they did it as a cheap way to achieve "shock value". To make a similarity, it's like trying to copy the "horror" of the original The Exorcist through a movie made exclusively of jumpscares. Then, after that travesty, they essentially killed the Old World and put the AoS instead, which is basically a "generic fantasy setting number 3851". Mind me, it's not a "bad" setting in any sense of the world, but it has NOTHING original or particularly appealing. The Old World was a dark, gritty and yet strangely hopeful setting. A setting where the normal people knew they were doomed, but still refused to surrender. A setting in which there were few heroes and good people, who shined like stars in the darkness. AoS, on the other hand? A simple "good gods vs evil gods" setting, where all problems can be solved by Sigmar opening a new vault and new problems are created by Nagash dickery. It's the perfect setting for a Wargame, since the universe is now so big that NOTHING can really change the status quo. But the fact that nothing is important enough to make a difference, no heroism and no act of villainy has any REAL repercussion, makes the lore feel distant and meaningless to me.
I think AOS lore has come a long way since its early stuff and whilst it still has 20 years to catch up with WFB at least it's improving. What I'm getting at in this video is that we shouldn't put one game down in order to say how good another is. It stinks what GW did and the way they did it however what prompted this video (a while back now) was a constant stream of players of both games slating the other. I just wanted people to enjoy their game and not worry about the other one. Thanks for taking the time to watch and comment Vale.
@@BlackJackLegacy You're welcome! Also, recent news suggest that Games Workshop is actually gonna revive the old Warhammer, or something like that. There is a new project called "Warhammer the Old World" that has made an appareance these days.
People hate AOS because they not only killed WF, but they also replaced it with a game that is not even close to similar. They left the players that love pitched, epic battles with nothing. Thats why there is a fanatical following for WF and many people hating on AOS.
I understand people were annoyed back when WF was stopped (putting it mildly!) but if there’s such a fanatical following for WF why still hate on AOS? Unless those people have played the latest version of AOS the hate is misplaced as you don’t have to hate on one game to show your love and support if another.
I'm still salty about the death of Fantasy but I don't blame them, and admit I could be just nostalgic for it. Not really seen people comparing them directly so can't speak on that. For a different analogy, you could say it is like rebooting an old classic cult film but maybe doing it decently!
There’s a lot of nostalgia there. I heard nothing but people complaining about Fantasy locally before it ended but no one wanted it gone. There’s a little rose tinted glasses now like there is with people saying 2nd edition 40K was the best.
I hate it because they sold 5 books at 150$ each. The end times falsely led people to believe the game would be supported. Then it was immediately killed. They wanted as much money as possible from the fantasy community right before kicking them in the ass and saying “how about GOLD space marines?”
I do totally understand your viewpoint when it comes to those books - that realy was a dirty trick to launch so much and say niothing to customers. My main point was more about bashing one game to say another is better but its been good to get a wider viewpoint of why there was so much ill feeling then and still to this day. Thanks for watching and commenting too.
I miss Bretonnia and I cannot buy NEW Bretonnian figures from GW and I have to either turn to Ebay or 3rd party sources. I bring my Bretonnian knights into AoS because that is what everyone else plays so I grit my teeth and bring my superior Square bases and Bretonnians and play my favorite armies which where either canned or super nerfed.
Yeah the day it released the rules were a car crash. It wasn’t until 12 months later with the Generals Handbook that it started to resemble a proper wargame worth playing in my opinion anyway.
The Old world was magical and I loved that game. Makes me sad that they killef it off. GW has had a bad rep for a long time though... At least when I was younger, they went from a fan driven community to well.. Being a bit money hungry, of course it is a company so their aim is profit but it used to have more of a role playing community feel to it. And the lore was dark and gritty and not as polished as it is today, and that was what were the magic with Warhammer, the dark and gritty.
Warhammer Fantasy was an army game. Mordheim was a skirmish game. WF had formations. Because it had formations, there were rules that applied to formations. Mordheim did not, AOS has coherancy rules for a game that does not have formations which makes no sense. AOS isn't an army game or a skrimish game, it's a made up game.
Does that mean 40K is a made up game too? It has coherency rules? Just because it doesn’t fit into a gaming label doesn’t mean is a bad game. It also doesn’t really have anything to do with the point of this video either - you can love the game or you can hate the game but the point of the video was that you don’t have to say how much you hate one game to show how much you like another ... they can all exist if they have a player base.
GW killed its own game with the late 90's early 2000's price increases.....units in the game were high in number, plastic reg boxes came out but at ridiculous price points, and while I was working for GW I saw first hand many Fantasy players pick up 40k (back during 5th) because it was still warhammer, but cheaper!! (hilarious) and abandoned Fantasy....which as an employee even I had by that point....and I got a sweet discount..lol.
You'll have seen it first hand working for GW at the time. A combination of high prices and lots of models needed is certainly one of the reasons I never got into fantasy in those days. Discount is never a bad motivator to start a new army mind :)
Short Answer: Because Fantasy was killed so AOS could exist. So it should be at least as good as HW fantasy! Oh, and because they still have HW Fantasy Characters in the game, so it's kinda hard to forget about about HW Fantasy
I never said it had to be forgotten about - just that there’s no need to keep saying how terrible one game is to “prove” how good the other is, especially in a group aimed at fans of the game being bashed.
Let's give you an example: You play AOS and GW decides to kill it of and start a new game. - You spend around 500$ in units you can't use anymore - The Lore is dead, but the new game parades around names and characters from AOS, reminding you of it. - The launch was abysmal - The new Lore is worse (in every way) then AOS Can you understand the salt?
I completely understand it and 100% agree that the launch was terrible however over 3 years have passed now, going into AOS fan pages and complaining about it now doesn’t change anything. That doesn’t mean you don’t have a valid point - it just means that it doesn’t help fans of WFB to bash AOS.
Greetings from Germany, I played WHF since 4th and played a couple of games of AOS, but it did not satisfy my needs, because AOS is a diffrent game. It is not a bad game, but it has nothing to do we the rule set of WHF anymore. For all those who loved 8th, try play The 9th Age! You can even use your AOS models for 9th Age. Cheers.
Hey Jun, that’s exactly right - they’re different games so it’s right to try not to compare. 9th Age isn’t something I know a lot about but I’m aware it is pretty popular amongst WFB players. Thanks for watching and commenting 👍🏼
I think a lot of people now appreciate AoS for the gameplay but are still bitter at the idea that GW won't be writing anything in that 30 year old setting. Without fresh content the player/writer base will dwindle. Despite being part of the same chronology, AoS keeps almost none of the old setting beyond what's on the tabletop (locations or kingdoms). That's OK & AoS lore is starting to get fleshed out but it has a long way to go before it can scratch the same itch that many fantasy players have. I am hopeful though.
I can still play my 360 games on Xbox 1, so the money I spent on those games isn't money I've thrown down the toilet. As an analogy this one doesn't work. Games Workshop's design is to force players to spend money on new items. We saw this pattern repeat itself in five-year cycles with Warhammer Fantasy as each new Army Book featured new and expensive models that became essential if you wanted to play competitively with the army. We also came to expect that the latest Army Book to come out would average more victories than the last one. The effect was as intended; players sold off old models and bought the new ones so they could have the most competitive army. Then three things began to happen. First, veteran players stopped getting rid of their old models because they knew a new Army Book would come again, and they knew they could reuse most of the models in the new List. Second, Games Workshop ran out of crazy ideas for over-the-top new units to give its new Army Books the win average they needed to encourage sales. Third, veteran players who began playing over ten or fifteen years ago were getting out of the hobby and selling their models to new players for a cheaper price than the absurd prices GW puts on its models. For these reasons, sales for Fantasy Battles slumped. It was also a game that required tactics and clever strategic forethought which didn't appeal to the younger gamers, most of whom on average prefer Warhammer 40K which is more forgiving about deployment and exposed flanks, and GW knows that younger players are more willing to spend money on games than those who support families. The result of all of this was that GW wrote off its old game and stopped supporting it completely, and created Age of Sigmar in an attempt to force players who wish to continue playing to buy new models. The reason it keeps being compared to Warhammer Fantasy is because Fantasy was a much better game. For those of you who enjoyed Fantasy or are thinking about Age of Sigmar, I highly recommend L'Arte de la Guerre. If you are a 40K player I recommend Bolt Action or Flames of War. Historically based games are highly rewarding and no company can tell you Tiger Tanks didn't exist in WWII or attempt to introduce them to a medieval battlefield just so they can sell more models and get away with it. Whatever you decide, I can tell you from my own experience that GW does not and probably never will deserve your loyalty; please understand that before you decide to buy their expensive products.
I forgot a few things... First, the Lore of AoS is garbage. If I ever meet a failed Science Fiction writer whose work isn't worth reading, I shall send him to Games Workshop knowing he will have a long and lucrative career there... Second - and most important! - Great video, BlackJack! I appreciate your insight and while I didn't agree with your analogy I thought you did a great job here. If you get a chance, please play a game of Fantasy!!! It will be a slower pace than AoS, but I think you will see the draw it had on its fans for 20 years...
I personally don't see why they needed to kill one to do the other. Why not have two fantasy games, one more user-friendly and -let's call it what it is - simple game, that allows you to start playing in half an hour or so, and another, for another "audience" altogether, longer to set, with more rules and customization options. Hell, you could even have most miniatures cross-over.
I like AOS but I definitely preferred Fantasy especially 7th edition... I do still play it... By this stage they are in no way the same though and are incomparable. I prefer pitched battle style games which is why I play alot of historical... Another great video dude
Thanks Kev. I’m not trying to get people to change how they feel about it, just suggest that we should treat them as separate games and that AOS is it’s own thing now.
Agreed... For me an enjoyable game also... I never got why they had to kill off fantasy to bring forth AOS, they could have made loads of movement trays with circle slots
I'm only just getting into AOS and I am a huge WHFB fan. As you said it had a very shaky launch which is what drove me away back in 2015 when it was fun of ridiculous rules like having a better moustache or talking to imaginary horses. That shit was a slap in the face to the fantasy players. Only with the release of Soul wars is it at the point it should have been at launch. Also I do still play fantasy when I get a chance but AOS is now at a point where I am happy to play.
That’s great to hear you came back to it and you’re right the game is very different to the launch version. I’d never thought about the ridiculousness of those rules being an even bigger slap in the face but I agree thinking about it. Thanks for watching and commenting Dave 👍🏼
AOS gets hate because it “replaced” fantasy which did not sit well with most of us fantasy players because our game was being kicked to the curb so it was an easy target to vent our frustration. I just completed my 5 stages of grief and will be giving the game a chance and yes it took me this long. FYI I have dwarfs and empire so I’m not sure what army I’m going to do but I’m going to give it a shot.
I just miss the units tbh. I come from total war, and want to get into the tabletop....but no Malekith or cool dark elves, or traditional vampire counts....I don’t mind the rules and kinda prefer AoS, but I miss the minis and the characters of fantasy.
I understand your point but the analogy with the Xbox/Xbox-1 is insufficient. It's more as if Xbox had RPG-tactical games (with limited graphics and so on) as well as others and when Xbox-1 came out they completely stopped all RPG-tactical game production and thus all the nice graphics, etc games (they stand for model quality here, for example) are now FPS. It's kinda frustrating seeing at TYPE of game disappear with a new console, just like it's sad to see SO FKN MANY customization options disappear for no real reason just because we have a new lore, setting, and casting techniques.
I've played AoS once and did not like it. It just didnt click for me and I just had the old WHFB mindset. I love 1990s and Early 2000's GW. I cant believe they killed off WHFB for AoS. Thats just me though. I love all the old models and how awesome GW was back then. Now I wont support them at all (except for some of their technical paints) :)
Thanks for sharing your experience BlackJack, as a huge WHF fan, it's good to have your perspective on this. My wife just started painting AOS minis while never having played WHF and is curious about the actual game. As she is an otherwise experienced RPG player, I'm hesitating between having us both jump into AOS (which I really, really don't want) and teaching her how to play WHF (which, you guessed it, I'd much rather do). Since it's a big move either way (I doubt we'd play both), I'm trying to hear the best arguments for AOS (I know those for WHF lol) so I can make an informed decision. Thanks again!
I started off playing war games back in the 80’s when I was about 12. My first tabletop game was Warhammer fantasy, then first edition 40k. one of my first rpgs was also Warhammer fantasy. I loved that world, lived it and breathed it every possible moment I could. Then beer, women, work, and other distractions took over and I moved on from the tabletop to pc & console gaming. My love affair with gaming came back about two years ago, mainly through the gateway drug that is ffg’s X-Wing. Simple, looks great and it’s Star Wars. Since then I’ve picked up bolt action, frostgrave, gaslands and a ton of board games. But not AoS. The reason being that GWs pricing model is ridiculous. It’s Miniatures are absolutely amazing, and a huge leap from what I’d of played with in the late 80 & early 90’s, so I can see why they are priced so high though. Also the AoS lore just hasn’t appealed to me, I’ve watched a few RUclips shows bringing me up to speed with what’s happened and also bought a GW starter magazine explaining changes. And I didn’t feel like it’s a world I want to play in. I think if I actually played AoS I’d like it, I just probably need to have a test game in a gw store or flgs. I’d just need to put the lore behind me and treat it like a competitive game. Star Wars legion on pre order, can’t wait!
BlackJack Legacy Heya, both to be honest. I’ve stayed away on purpose, to save my wallet and I’ve just been enjoying other games and worlds. I will give it a try, then I’ll make up my mind. I’ve honestly got my eye on making a dwarf army but have no idea where to start or if I’ll even enjoy it. Will speak to my flgs or pop into a GW store 👍 love the channel, keep up the great work
Thanks for the kind words Tim. Theres so many great games out there you can happily play a different game every day of the week and never touch a GW game. If its a game that interests you I'd definitely recommend a demo.
A problem with the transfer (from Fantasy to AoS) is that it punished people for caring. The more that a person cared or knew about the Fantasy world, the deeper a stab in the back it was. Please think about the change... The characters were warped into idiotic caricatures of themselves, the Warhammer history was changed/mutilated to allow AoS to happen (not just the present and the future, but the past as well). Imagine how people would react if the current President of Germany demanded that the Holocaust never happened. (This is a bit dramatic but it is more or less the same line of thought.) Surely you can begin to understand a bit of the discontent, and then the Fantasy game is destroyed ENTIRELY so the two separate games couldn't be compared to one another. After all, AoS looks better when there is less to compare it to. Also how many Fantasy novels/stories do you believe will be created now that AoS has destroyed the Fantasy background? The answer is none. No novels about Fantasy's future (as it doesn't exist) and no novels about Fantasy's past. Another example of people being punished for the act of caring. A few Fantasy novels were on cliffhangers when this happened as well, so now we have good stories whose endings have been violently torn from existence. (I mean no offence towards you for liking AoS, and I assume that you are a clever person) Also that is before we look at the idiocy of AoS. Honestly, separate space constructs/worlds with teleporters to allow armies to warp to a world for the sole purpose of letting armies fight one another. Do people honestly believe that this is clever? It may be fun to see how close one can get to violent animal animal without being attacked, but is it not a good idea. And that is before we consider things like comparing primitive arrows to futuristic electric hammers. I assume that if people like GW for the painting or gameplay alone, there would be no/few problems. The transfer only punishes people for caring. That is why people won't shut up, because they truly cared about Warhammer. My apologies for the negativity but hopefully this will help people understand.
Hey there, no negativity at all. All I see is passion for something you deeply cared about and I do empathise about that. I wasn’t invested so it doesn’t personally effect me but I can understand how a lot of people felt cheated or let down by the change. There’s no denying that GW could have and should have handled this in a much better way. On a slightly different note its interesting to see that the Old World lives on in computer games with games like Total War and Vermintide so it definitely shows the world that was created still has appeal in this day and age. Thanks for taking the time to comment on this. 👍🏼
In defence of AoS, the final "Warhammer Army Books" were terribly written (compared to the earlier Warhammer Army Books). There is good reason why many people are told to avoid the 8th edition Warhammer army books. Here is my reply moral/point/lesson now, just in case one tires of reading... although Fantasy Warhammer's main written material was dying in quality, (excluding novels) AoS slashed Fantasy's throat before Fantasy had a chance to improve (or get worse). Also there was stupidity within (recent) Fantasy as well. For example, some terribly written "last army book" characters and histories were already warping/warped (such as Malekith, Morathi and Tyrion) before the End Times & transfer to prepare people for AoS. Even if we exclude everything written closely related to the End Times & afterwards, the "recent" written material is clumsy, stupid and often conflicts with earlier, better material on the same topics. For example, the writers have forgotten that elves and eldar/aeldari/drukhai are not the same beings, and that elven souls were not automatically destined for Slaanesh. Other examples include Malekith's new/old girlfriend & Tyrion's personality change. This might make you laugh, there was a successful High Elf hero Eltharion (the Grim) who was blinded by Malekith, who later in life miraculously regained his vision so Tyrion could be allowed to lose his sight for AoS. Despite there already having a blind elf hero in HE, only Tyrion can advance and must lose his vision to do so. The new Fantasy (army) models were stupid as well, created to attract children but they only attracted snickering. Examples include "Demigryph Knights" (Empire) who use halberds (large, double-handed weapons) while holding a shield and riding the mini-griffons who bear them, the ridiculous medusaes (Dark Elves), the flying bolt throwers and elves sitting on burning phoenixes (HE) . However the novels could be really good, and not every novel reader enjoys reading about Space Marines. Finally here is the original reply point (again). although Fantasy Warhammer's main written material was dying in quality, (excluding novels) AoS slashed Fantasy's throat before Fantasy had a chance to improve (or get worse). So please don't feel too disheartened by my opinions as there is stupidity on both sides on the fence and remember that I am only one man.
Everything you say is 100% right. I’m not surprised to hear that the books started to wind down towards the end. Some might say it was a tactic to ease the transition!
blindlobster great reply, and I think it shows how much the community really did care about Fantasy. Just a shame that GW didn’t spend the time getting it right...
Most of the lore issues of AoS that were initially criticized are being addressed a lot in recent Malign Portents short stories. They are about these 'named cities' that the forces or Order are trying to protect, with 'normal people' that we can relate to as protagonists
There are a few points which you don't understand as you haven't played WHF before - I've been playing and collecting warhammer since I was 9 (18 years ago): 1.) A huge part of WHF was continuous new releases. With stopping the support that is no longer going to happen. 2.) The Community is pretty much gone, there is no one left to play with (it was unbalanced as f**k anyway). 3.) Many players blame AoS for the death of WHF since the actual reason for killing WHF off seemed to be to introduce "Sigmarines" since Space Marines were the NR.1 selling point of 40k. 4.) The way they shut down WHF was a spit and kick in the face of the players. Well that was caused by an incapable CEO. The new one finally engages people in Social Media, the company remains greedy as hell though. I see AoS rather as a continuation of the WHF story which is fine (the story is currently builing up background which rocks). Besides that AoS has a good flow to it playwise though the stacking of synergies gets absurd rather quickly (30+ Sekeletons with 4-5 attacks and double pile in anyone?) About Khemri: You can still play them as part of the Grant alliance death. Just use Neferata/Arkhan as leader and it actually makes sense fluffwise =)
I agree with a lot of what you say. Theres little attraction in playing an unsupported game as theres nothing new to buy - I totally get that. I'm not sure I agree with your reason the GW killed off WFB to introduce a Space Marine like faction. From all the info I've read and things I've been told WFB was in a rut due to complex point of entry for new players and older players just not buying enough new models to support it all. Rebooting the game and drawing on an easier entry point has cetainly proved financially successful for GW and at the end of the day thats what theyre about - making money.Your agree on the AOS lore too. Its quickly improving and I like the new direction.Thanks for watching and commenting :)
So Joining the friendly discussion here. First of, TL;DR: I am on the fence about it, I accept and in most part appreciate the AoS Lorewise, it is a cool setting, but I have a hard time enjoying it gamewise. I think that fantasy is a superior system which is much more stimulating for me, I like the complexity of it. To start of, I am super salty, something I am not proud of, but I cannot help it, the feelings are there. I agree with you, they are completely different games, and they should be treated as such. But I think that the part that sets things awry is the replacing part, replace is a big scary word which sets a lot of emotion in motion, it is also this word that provokes the comparing of the systems So now I am going to ignore the initial question and compare them anyway, for I am a weak human being. Now I have tried to play Age of Sigmar alot as well as read some of the books. The system itself is so much easier to get into, and offers a kind of arcadey fun that you would expect out of most tabletop games. There is a certain amount of depth in that all units have their own abilities as well as different armies and combinations bringing new abilities as well. The thing is, as a fantasy player since time immemorial, I enjoyed the complexity of the game, it was hard to get into and hard to play and I loved it. For me AoS feels more like magic: the gathering: the miniature game, with a limited amount of core stats to give a simple ground to stand on and abilities to set units apart. This is where the arcade aspect steps in. AoS took a leap away from the complicated rules, which was an excellent move businesswise, as it is now as easy to get into as any tabletop game. But it took away the gritty realism (for a lack of better words) in the system, sacrificing morale and movement play, to name a few, for a more streamlined hack'n'slash experience with epic heroes on all sides. I love the huge battles, 300 models on each side, moving and countermoving to give just that small edge that would tilt the battle and promote a mass route of the enemy force, with characters just small parts of the whole. I can still do that in AoS, but people in my group tend to get antsy whenever I play massed infantry armies, stretching across the entire board, a proverbial sea of models to cut through to get to any hope of a juicy center. On to the world and the models/armies. I have nothing against the world, it is still a dark an gritty place, and they have done an excellent job at building a world through which they can tell an infinite amount of stories, though it still lacks the comprehensible setting that the Old World provided, I have seen some promising signs in that they are trying to build up kingdoms in much the same way, with all the room to expand further. The new armies that come out though, I am not as happy with, it seems to get a little out of hand with the high fantasy stuff. Yet again, I am more of a rank and file/massed armies-person, so the whole everything is special and/or heroes thing that they've got going does not really cut it for me. And the Sigmarines... I both love and hate these golden paragons of Sigmars righteous fury. On one hand, I absolutely hate the concept of everyone being immortal heroes, all of them being the perfect people. One the other hand, they are cool models, what with the large armours and the big hammers, and I love big shields. And the signs as of late, of them being flawed, with every reincarnation stripping them of humanity and empathy, I quite like that. But seriously, space marines in fantasy, come on GW, surely you are better than this? Wow, this got longer than I anticipated, I think I need to speak to someone about this. I hope that I did not step on anyones toes, I have a tendency to do that when speaking of this subject and I am working on it. If you read through all of this, I salute you and thank you for your time.
Hey there, thanks for watching and commenting and I'm glad its been a constructive chat on both sides of the debate. I cant say I agree or disagree on Fantasy being a superior system as I never played it. All I'd say is that the complexity that you enjoyed was a barrier to me getting into it. Maybe not for everyone but it was for me personally. I think the setting is improving all the time and some of the newer stuff is actually quite dark which I'm enjoying. I guess if we still play AOS in 30 years time then we can really compare which system worked out best.
I agree, it is getting a lot darker. I recently read through Ghal Maraz and the Gate of Azur books, and they were kind of stale in my opinion. That being said, the newer stuff, as you said, gets really interesting, I have been thoroughly enjoying the Malign Portents short stories, those are perfect additions to the world what with their depiction of the common person in this grand epic. I personally loved the story Death at the door, hinting at a sort of Stormcast inquisition, purging the disease ridden villagers. If we still play in 30 years time, I will be glad to have this conversation again.
Yeah the older original stuff was poor and probably just added to the backlash at the time but the newer stuff is really fleshing out the universe and I think theres some interesting development around Stormcast for sure.
Ok, I have to ask this because I keep hearing this AoS players. Why do you say if you want to keep playing Warhammer Fantasy, just play it? You guys know that it’s not supported right? And that models and game materials like books wear out? What if I want to expand my army? I can’t do that. I can’t replace any of my models that wear out or break one too many times. Can’t get new books to replace the ones that get lost in a fire or that my kid thought were coloring books. And the poor guys playing Bretonnia or Tomb Kings are even worse off. You need to think that through before dropping that thought. It goes down one of two ways. One, we think you’re a jerk who just doesn’t care, which is fine. We just won’t share tables and move on. Two, you sound like a condescending jerk who feels superior about the fact that you have your game, in which case you really are a jerk and you can go jump in a well. The proper response to old school fantasy players complaining about Fantasy is this, “Yeah, GW fucked up that whole situation and I feel for you missing your game.” And then segue into something recent with your tables’ results. We’re NEVER going to stop winging about it, just like people still complain about Firefly. Just learn to deal with it and don’t look down your nose at people who were forced out of a hobby.
Hey Geoffrey. I just want to clear up I'm not an AOS player (well not anymore anyway). My initial point in this was about people (from both games) saying how much they hated the other one in areas that were dedicated to fans of that game. It doesnt help anyone really.The point about "just play it" was more about the fact that there is still a community for 9th Age/WFB and that it is still possible to play it whilst I do understand that when a game is no longer supported it sucks.I dont think I'm superior or intentionally being condesending so appologies if thats how it comes across. I was trying to illustrate that people can of course be annoyed at the situation they find themselves in (of which I peorsonally think it was a nasty move by GW on how it was handled) but to say how bad another game is wont fix the issue. Hope thats helped to try and explain a little of my intention.
1:19 I think the answer lies right in your question. The game is no longer supported and was instead supplanted by AOS. I think that maybe if both games somehow co-existed, at least for a few years, then there probably wouldn't be as much hate
12 years ago, I played fantasy and had battle boxes fo armies. Now, I would like to play AOS, because I am starting over. I have no bias towards either game, I would like to learn the differences. How do I go about it, so that I do not spend alot?
Played fantasy but left it back in the 90s and don't miss it. For me AoS is much more accessible and fun to play. They are completely different games. The lore will grow and get better. Even after 32 years the lore for WHFB was never fully explored so it will take time for AoS to grow. Looking forward to see where it goes.
What makes you think Age of Sigmar got off to a shaky start? Is that more to do with how it was received, or did you initially have your doubts about the structure?
I said that because of how it was universally panned and the idea to launch without points costs just confused people initially. That off the back of killing Fantasy and it’s main crowd weren’t happy. Fast forward about 12 months and the Generals Handbook gave points and it seemed to start to pick up momentum. I didn’t get into it until after this happened.
Awesome topic once again, my man! I really liked your positive approach on this matter, your willingness to look at both sides, and your message of "play whatever makes you happy". I also felt like your Xbox metaphor was incredibly apt. This was really enjoyable to listen to. Keep up the awesome, my friend! ~ Wolfbrother Methos
Thanks so much Brother! I’m glad that came across as I was really trying to make sure I was balanced as I’ve never played Fantasy so neither love nor dislike it. The Xbox metaphor was the best I could think of to try and take it away from the passion people feel for the old world. Thanks for watching my friend!
You're main flaw is assuming those three groups are the only ones, there are two more. There is the one I am with, that was too young to play fantasy or was intimidated by painting the models and now that we're older we want to get into fantasy but now 2/3 of the models are gone and the rules are gone and if you mention fantasy in a gw or a gaming group everyone just tells you to "move on man". Then there is the second group like my best friend who learned about warhammer through video games like total war warhammer and vermintide, then they decided that they want to play but their favourite armies are gutted and the new lore makes them not want to play. To be frank I hate the "they're a business and they made a smart business move" argument, because A) it would have been easier to just change the rules of fantasy (like they did with 40k 8th edition) to be simpler and then release new models to replace some old ones, and B) the profit motive is fucking horrible and ruins creativity, hell I'd love to personally hand make fantasy models and give them away for free because I just love it so much but because gw is the owner of the copyright I can't, they are the dictators of what gets made and they don't do things because the fans want them, they do things because the lowest common denominator wants them. This isn't at a lol comparable to a new video game console, with that you truly can just get one and have the exact same experience anybody else would have, but with war gaming it can't be done, models are no longer made, entire armies are gone, rules and lore aren't the same, and dangling two or three new armies that are almost just copycats of 40k armies doesn't make it any better. Even if we go with the capitalist approach to this, literally the only thing that will bring back fantasy is protesting. Fantasy and AOS don't even need to be enemies, both can be made at the same time since AOS is just fantasy armies with a few new ones stapled on, warhammer is my life and the second I learned that the old world and fantasy was gone I legitimately debated suicide, yes I know that's a huge over reaction but I've had depression my whole life and seeing the one thing that made me happy go up in smoke then to be told off by fans was devastating. Thank you for reading this to the end I know that was just a huge ramble but I just need somebody, anybody to know what I'm feeling
Hey buddy. I really appreciate you watching and commenting. To answer some of your points I didn’t so much think there were no other groups of people than the 3 I mentioned, just that generally most people fell into those 3 groups. The folks coming from Warhammer video games like Total War etc may well be bigger than I imagined. You’re 100% right that there’s no reason why WFB and AOS couldn’t have existed side by side but wether you, I or anyone else likes it sadly the choice wasn’t ours to make - it was ultimately GW’s. I don’t have the numbers but rumours were that GW sold more Space Marines (not total 40K - just Marines) than the entire fantasy range. It’s capitalism totally however as a business sometime shareholders force decisions and not customers sadly. I hope with time you find a way to cope with the loss of the game (you’re not alone in how you feel by the way) and I hope you can enjoy your hobby again 👍🏼
Given that AoS novels outsell fantasy's on an individual basis? Yes, yes it was a smart choice. And yes, yes they kind of need to be enemies in that they compete shelf-space. They didn't can WHFB because they wanted to make AOS. They made AOS because they had to can WHFB and they needed to salvage the segments of the range that performed best in terms of product cycling.
As long as I can use my "fantasy" models in the "age of sigmar" rules I'm good. Which is perfectly possible. Just don't bitch about my square bases. It's old skool man! All the lore is just fluff. In the end it's about painting or gaming. At least it is for me.
Fantasy was way better My Problem with AoS is that the whole setting feels like a hollywood superhero movie. You just have big strong models. All of them are strong, huge, gods can teleport. It really fells like it was made for kids. The books are way to colourfull and the story is written lame That makes the game feel fake for me. Its like fake tits on women I want to feel the pain and the struggle of mankind trying to survive against the endless hordes of chaos Since AoS i quite the hobby The only thing that I liked so far from GW is Shadespire
I can’t comment on Fantasy as like I said I never played it. I enjoy AOS and the setting now - I didn’t at first. You can’t compare the games however as they’re just too different.
i think its really weird how they changed all the faction names except for the skaven. like just call dwarfs, dwarfs not duruiden? and they call the empire the free folk? i wanted to start a dwarven army but now that can never happen.
I think this was something to do with trademarking names. Dwarves, Elves, Orcs etc are generic and GW couldn’t claim the names however Skaven (I believe) is a GW name.
The console analogy I disagree with. It's not like they left the fantasy lore on a cliff hanger that fans can then decide for themselves what happens to the universe, they up and killed it. A better analogy would be like Microsoft saying "we understand that you can keep playing your Xbox 360 consoles, but we want to focus on Xbox One, so we're shutting down xbox live services completely on your Xbox 360 and wipe your gamerscore because now it doesnt matter." People want to immerse themselves in a LIVING fantasy world, not just relive the glory days and thinking "man I wasn't having to make believe that these armies would be fighting since the entire world blew up."
I get that actually and maybe not being as bought into the fantasy lore as a large chunk of people I'm maybe a little ignorant of what killing off the Old World really meant. I was referring to the fact that the game is still playable. If you have the stuff (books minis etc) then the game didn't die - it just stopped being supported but I do totally see your point of view. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Why would people compare a game that’s less than three years old that replaced a beloved 30 year game and is also fantasy based...? Why da think. Are you daft in the head? or just stretching out bad clickbait content?
The 2 can definitely live side by side... And they are still linked lore-wise too. The new books make references to the world that was quite often. AoS will need more time to flesh out the lore, especially since they are just adding onto it and expanding the events as they go. It feels a lot less rich, but also a lot less stale than the WHFB lore. Was it right to blow up the old world? GW is putting up half year financial results that would have been full year financials 3 years ago... Unless there's some MASSIVE upkick of 40k sales for no real reason, it seems the switch from WHFB to AoS was a massive success for the company and the people who started with it seem to be enjoying it a lot (I'm in quite a few FB groups for AoS and there's constant questions floating in from new players who aren't 12 year olds btw... ;) ) AoS players who tell others that they shouldn't like the old WHFB world are disgusting however, but the same applies in reverse though...
Hey Walter - I agree with every single thing you said. It’s GW’s business and they took a huge risk which appears to have paid off. The new lore is coming along great but will take time to get the volume that the old world had. AOS brought me into GW games as I found Fantasy and old 40K just too complicated as a new player to get into. Thanks for watching and commenting 👍🏼
I think WHFB was solely for the "serious" gamer. Whereas AoS was initially aimed at the more casual gamer like me. However GW have added so many more layers to it that even the neckbeards can get something from it. I once mentioned AoS on the Mordheim Facebook group-you should have seen the stick I took!
I feel the reason people bash Age of Sigmar, is the same reason people SHOULD have bashed Blood Bowl/etc. It's like running multiple Call of Duty game servers at the same time, and trying to update each (inconsistently). By having Hobbit, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, 40k, Fantasy, Quest... the list goes on and on... You're just spreading the playerbase thin. There's only so many tables at a Workshop store, so many people that will come, and it makes it difficult to enjoy. Topped off with the inconsistent updates to armies (How on earth they think they can go to a new edition without updating ALL the books at the SAME TIME is beyond me), along with the abrupt end of Warhammer Fantasy in favor of a reboot (Sigmar), aaaand the recent and very successful releases of video games that made Fantasy all the more popular... you're just left with a Blood Bowl of Poop. I think, honestly, people should continue to snub their nose at Age of Sigmar. It wasn't released by another company, it IS a reboot/replacement of Fantasy, and it IS splitting the dwindling player-base all the more. Maybe if they had been more loose with their licensing, Blizzard would've made World of Warhammer and we'd all be playing Fantasy today, but instead all we get pointed to is a dead game by the fantastic Total War, Vermintide, and Mordheim games. It's just sad.
Hey there, first off thanks for watching and commenting with your viewpoint. There’s no denying from anyone, wether you despise what GW did to Fantasy or if your a huge AOS player that GW majorly messed up the transition between games. I think their launch of 8th edition 40K showed they can do it better and reboot a franchise without killing it off. I’d also agree there was life left in Fantasy and the success of the digital games you mentioned show that. That said AOS has over time developed into a decent game (by no means perfect or a replacement for WFB) and looks to be successful in what GW wanted in bringing new players into Fantasy. My main point in this video was really that just because you don’t like (hate even) one game you shouldn’t need to go to a group where there are fans of that game and bash it. That goes both ways in this instance of WFB and AOS. The more I understand the WFB side from comments like yours I can see just how bad it was and what a hole GW created for fans but I still stand by my point that you don’t have to publicly hate one thing to make something else better.
I used to always play Fantasey, it was a challenge to master more so then 40k. I've yet to play AOS. What I don't like is that They've removed old armies & stopped producing minis for them. Now if GW some how bring back say bretonnian and bring out all new models then I can over luck my current opinion. I've not had chance to play AOS so I can't make a comment on the game play
There’s still warscrolls you can use for your old armies in AOS even if they’re not fully supported. They seem to have gotten rid of armies that either didn’t sell so well or were a little generic and difficult to trademark. I think it’s a great game. It’s simple to get started but more complex as you get into it. It’s worth a try anyway.
BlackJack Legacy yeah man I get that. I don't know the exact figures but surely just because they can't copy right Wood Elf, High Elf or Bretonnians surely they should keep them around. Or unless their master plan is to create that supply and demand ie no supply and now high demand resulting in massive sales when the rerelease them
High Elves are about to make a reappearance soon with a few tweaks I think and theres always talk of Bretonnians coming back under Free Peoples. I think they're just trying to flesh out the backstories for them and make them less Generic Fantasy but I think we'll see them come back in one for or another.
Maybe if Age of Sigmar didn't have the vast majority of its units and characters directly lifted from Warhammer Fantasy, with horrendous narrative explanation for it... Maybe then the comparisons would stop.
I just played Warhammer Fantasy once time and it was so hard for me; Age of Sigmar is easy to learn for me and is faster. I like it. Btw, I love see some battles about Warhammer Fantasy. It looks very nice with big pretty armies
I've never played Warhammer Fantasy for the same reasons as you but I do like Kings of War which has the same big army feel and look without the confusing rules.
I think a better analogy would be Gamecube players crossing over to the Nintendo Wii. You need to essentially relearn how you play video games And embrace the gimmick of future Nintendo consoles to enjoy IP from your beloved franchises now. Meanwhile PlayStation (40k) gets the PS3, PS4 etc with no drastic change to the format.
Great vid mate... for me personally they initially launched Aos incorrectly, no matched play, rules where if you wear a hoody your general can do certain abilities etc, they have corrected those mistakes now and since the Generals Handbook it is a much much better game that I really enjoy. I do think it’s a shame they destroyed the world. But there is nothing stopping people playing the Aos rulesets and armies in the Old World setting 👍🏻
Thanks fella. Couldn't agree more. The Generals Handbook rescued it just in time I think. Its a shame they killed off the lore with the game (or essentially did) but its done now and the new stuff is shaping up rather well.
I played warhammer from 1st edition. I played and bought it all for decades. It was a large chunk of my childhood. Games come and go but they destroyed the 'world' . Gw had people spend a fortune on models and books for a campaign that ended the system and made all they had bought useless. It was the lack of respect for customers and no regard for what it meant to ppl that meant I didn't even want to look at AoS. I want battles. KOW fills that now. It's not the game AoS it's GW itself I want nothing to do with.
That’s really interesting as it’s a great point about getting people to invest in the End Times campaign without explaining that the game was going. Glad you enjoy KOW now - I think it’s a great game.
My only rebuttal comment I'd say is that the issue for Fantasy players is that essentially it's a dying crowd, with little new incomers because it's no longer a supported system/license. And lots of clubs/groups don't do Fantasy (or indeed AoS), purely based on space/interest (40K tends to still be more popular), based of course purely on personal experience. /shrug personally I'll always say that Fantasy just felt more fun and immersive to me than AoS, but I've also been playing GW games since I was 6 or 7 in 2001 so some bias there I think.
Hey Thomas, I agree that we all have a little bias in us. I've not been playing as long, never played fantasy and my group are big AOS players. If I'd come from your group and had been playing as long I'm sure I'd feel different. I'm sure it is a declining crowd but by the way GW ended the game I'd assume it was already a declining crowd just not to the extent it is now.
Age of Sigmar is a nice game. Old fantasy is much much much much better. In fact you have a full list of computer games, books, roleplaying games in addition to the battletop game. It is so much deep, more rich more entertaining than AoS.
All Warhammer is equal - to think otherwise is a kind of racism, because inevitably the discussion slides into "Age of Sigmar / 40k fans are not people, unlike the true Aryans fb-fans."
Enjoyed the chat, you make many good points. I used to play WFB, just purchased 5 ed. at the time and the group stopped gaming. (life got in the way, it happens). I have never played AoS, although I have been watching Batt Reps. and have been thinking about picking up the rules. Thank you for sharing. ~ Will
No worries Will - thanks for watching and taking the time to comment. I like AOS but then never played Fantasy to compare it. I would say it’s worth a demo somewhere as it’s much more accessible as a new play in my opinion.
The 9th Age Fantasy Battles. It’s a rule set for actual gamers instead of the jumbled mess that are GW games which are unbalanced, confused on purpose and unwieldy (to sell more supplements). GW games are more like a pay to win cellphone game. GW made the choice to be a different company which is fine but no need to fool oneself.
This video is laughable. There's little tactical acumen in AoS. If you're going to play a skirmish game why not play Malifaux, or Warmahordes? Fiat and a Porsche comparison when it comes to balance, and tactics.
Thanks for watching and commenting. AOS technically isn’t a skirmish game so comparisons with Malifaux and Warmahordes aren’t really a fair comparison. As I said in the video I’ve not played WFB so I’m not saying which is the better game - what I’m saying is you don’t need to bash one game to say another is better. I appreciate you taking the time to comment however.
I actually think AOS may be compared to WarmaHordes in a way: it's smaller scale compared to WHF (while WH is becoming larger scale with time), also in AOS squads can attack different targets and so on... naturally they are not the same (at GW they only can wish they were!) but AOS is definitely closer to WH than to WHF as what really makes a difference is characters more than troops... I mean u don't really think big blocks of troops in AOS unless u use dunno goblins maybe...
Good video. My thoughts are, for one thing, most of the players who have played WF have more invested than a person who never got on that scene and got into AOS. I prefer the WF because the factions are more interesting and you have to find that right balance to be successful. I still do try to get into AOS, but it’s too much like 40k. I’m glad they announced the return of the old war, though it’ll be some time before it hits the shelves and different rules I’m sure. I think they just should’ve kept them both cause a lot of people are still wanting the WF minis.
I got back into fantasy as it was dying. I got lucky and scooped up a lot of armies people were offloading as well as a bunch of out of print rulebooks. So basically I've been experimenting with older rule sets all the way from 4th/5th herohammer era to 8th edition. Been a good time, made some new friends. So at least that's been a positive. I only lament not being able to purchase certain models no longer supported. Woe betide he who wants to play bretonnia or tomb kings.
One simple big problem with the argument ” You can keep playing the old game.” The cool models for the old factions are being removed. If I want to buy Tomb Kings, shit out of luck unlike Stormcast Eternals, GW is in that way hindering playing the old game (I think it’s intentional since their sales of old models have been fine and spiked during End Times and Last Chance periods) So no, it is not the same to play an unsupported game, in video games analogy it would be like having game mechanics or factions removed from the game while playing. Some argue as a counter: Then use models from other companies. Simple answer to that, why don’t you do that for AoS? Because the sculpts are better than most companies, the original models are better representation just to name a fem reasons why it sucks not to have GW minis. Also mishmash other models with our own GW models looks bad in many cases.
When I say keep playing the game I mean with the stuff you have. The analogy to the Video game still stands that theres no extra content, theres no support for patches etc however you can technically still play it. I know GW are removing the older models but that just shows the market is shrinking for them to the point its uneconomical to keep them in production. I do appreciate that the game was essentially ripped out from underneath you however without intending to sound harsh what else is there to do? You can play it or you can leave it. Thats all I'm really trying to get at. GW can stop supporting the game but they cant stop you playing what you love.
I think they should have kept the world and changed the rules. I know it was a DnD looking grounded in reality fantasy land. I know they wanted to go more crazy and creative and high fantasy with it. Have models who look insane. Also fantasy was bleeding out due to bad rules in 8e and horrible army books with 0 balance. And lack of support for all the 6e factions. But I still like 6e.
A lot of the comments state about WHFB lore being definitively better, but that really is just a matter of opinion. I mean, I liked the setting and the lore well enough but there wasn't really anything special about it. It just kind of felt stale and generic to me... arguing which story is better is purely subjective and there is no "definitive better" answer that will settle any argument. I don't think that the direction that AOS lore is going is going is necessarily better or worse, but it is different and the the storyline needed a change IMO. As for the game itself, it was very apparent that WHFB needed to be changed as well as it wasn't profitable for the company to keep it going as it was. I might have done things differently (such as not squatting armies) but can appreciate that they did something when it was needed. Its hard to argue with the financial results.
How dare you be reasonable and balanced in your opinion! haha.I completly agree. Whats a literary masterpice to one person is firewood to another. There is no fact on which is better - only opinion. You're also bang on about the financial results. In business the good and bad decisions are decided on the balance sheet!Thanks for watching and commenting.
AOS biggest flaw is they use Warhammer’s name with having very little in relation. One is low fantasy the other is a Saturday cartoon high fantasy. If it were it’s own thing with totally new heros Im fairly sure it would be less hated. If I wanted to play AOS I’d just play melee only 40K. Also, funny enough, the Old World fans held on so tight GW is bringing it back…maybe…eventually. Who knows when but still.
I played WHFB since 3rd edition, but stopped with AOS; I don't like the new setting, and needed to spend my money on other things (motorbikes!). I do continue with WFRP 1st Ed - the best game made by GW!
I think you are totally wrong as to why people are upset. Age fo Sigmar cherrypicked aspects of the lore while killing off not just a specific game, but in many ways, tattering a community. There are still big tournamentsfor 9th, but the height of 8th edition Warhammer had slightly larger tournaments, constant content in the forms of magazines, podcasts, and battle reports. Also, the competitions were game supported in a lot of places, and that made a huge difference as well. It's not simply "xbox vs. xbox1".
I understand why people are upset about it - I just wonder why after 3 years it’s still an issue. All of the things you mentioned are valid but there’s no sign of it coming back anytime soon. I just feel it’s been long enough to begin to come to terms with the change.
BlackJack Legacy its like the McRib in that way. Its the support that is lacking. AoS seems like a cute fantasy companion to 40k. I also think to be able to talk about this, you should probably play fantasy and try it out. Also, the issues with warhammer fantasy now is that games workshop left it in a trash place where one of the army books was two editions behind, and the rules were not updated or completed for the latest edition. You can say you understand but you need to say at least one thing after that which makes it actually seem like you actually listened.
I did try to get into Fantasy and I found it too difficult an entry point. The rule book was huge, there were rules all over army books and the players didn’t seem to want to help new guys. That’s generalising from my local scene however. I don’t think I need to have played the game to have an opinion that you don’t have to hate on one game to appreciate another however. I have listened to everyone’s opinions both on the Fantasy side and on the AOS side. Just because I don’t agree with everyone doesn’t mean I’m right and they’re wrong however. There’s no wrong opinions when it comes to this only how people feel. The only thing I think we should all agree on is that we shouldn’t put one game down to elevate another.
I definitely agree don't be negative about the other game, but I think people should be able to complain about losing the support for a game that could have been in their lives for 10+ years
I agree with you Pablo that when it’s something that people feel so passionately about then of course they should be able to voice their opinions, frustrations and disappointment but when that’s aired in groups dedicated to the support and enjoyment of another game it can come off as sour grapes a little. I think one of the issues is that where else do you air your grievances? It’s been a difficult situation not helped by splitting a community.
I only recently discovered the existence of Age of Sigmar. I played both WHF and the WHF Roleplay games while I studied -- and have a great number of books devoted to this world. Reading that the entire world was killed off in order to market Age of Sigmar makes me really sad. Granted, I stopped playing the tabletop and role playing games ages ago (working, moving, etc), but I continued reading the books. This explains why there suddenly were books with Sigmarites and other pretty weird humans. c_c What I've read thus far of AoS does not impress me overly. Quite frankly it is hard to accept that a company would be stupid enough to ditch 3-4 decades of history building in order to launch a streamlined version of their battle game. There is so much more to the universe than these battles.
AoS fiction has gotten much better but won't scratch the same itch as Fantasy lore. GW have done well financially out of the switch however so I'm sure they're happy about it.
Not played AOS after the betrayal of the loyal fantasy owners then if that wasn't bad enough they replace it with a no points structure wtf was that about and all rules on what was it 1-2 pages? Now look at the prices of the models they are so expensive and some of them are double the cost of old fantasy models so hence they are going to make cash as people really are made to buy the new stuff and you cannot blame GW for this as they need to make cash but its funny how aos has gone back and pinched stuff from Warhammer Fantasy to make it a more popular game. It just feels to me that its more 40k now then it is fantasy because 40k sells because the younger generation just want to kill stuff and not worry about tactics as much and that's fine if people enjoy that. But the hate from a lot of fantasy players is because aos killed it and that is why you still get people venting about it as this is not in the same league of quality in there eyes. Only game I play whats GW is Bloodbowl so I'm not one of these hardcore fantasy players but I can see how they feel cheated. Luckily I stopped playing it a year or so before end of times due to the products getting way overpriced for what they are and ive worked for games workshop I know how cheap they cost to make
Thanks for the great reply Bernie. I can only imagine what state Fantasy was in financials for GW to take this route and kill it off but I agree the initial launch of AOS with no points was a mess. It’s grown a lot since then but I also agree on the costs. It would be interesting to compare the price of a Fantasy army compared to an AOS army. Less models now but same cost or more maybe? Thanks for watching and commenting.
The thing is I think its a different generation thing for instance the old dudes like me love to be a general of a mass huge army and nothing better then seeing them cavalry charges crash into the gun lines of the enemy and seeing all that heraldry flags and all. While the generation of today want a more quick tempo type of game and I feel they don't want to be bogged down by rules and rules they just want to play. So I get that one of my favourite games is zombicide and that is a nice easy game to play but still has a tactical element to it. Look at cricket county cricket is a result over 4 days and not doing well but 20-20 cricket is done in around 3 hours and is now a huge success so GW have gone with the times but they was awful how they went about it they really did. Regardless whatever people like or dislike these loyal fantasy players deserved better then how they was treated by gw
I think you’ve summed it up perfectly. Times have changed and the influx of skirmish games have driven a different mentality in gaming. There will always be big army scale games but they’re becoming the niche rather than the mass market. The way the end was handled was terrible. I think they were lucky to survive it. If it wasn’t for 40K popularity it might have been a different outcome.
I agree. GW obviously thought that Fantasy wasn’t making them enough money and to be honest their profits since it ended suggest they were right. That said what makes money and what fans love can often be two very different things.
As someone who hasn't played either of the games, but was really into the lore of the old world due to some of the video games ever since Warhammer: Age of Reckoning, I just wanna drop my 2 cents, in case this topic is still relevant to you. I can definitely imagine how someone who enjoys playing Age of Sigmar would be annoyed with people always complaining about it and referencing a different game, so I totally understand you from that perspective. I may not like the lore of AoS that much, but I won't go out of my way to ruin other people's enjoyment of it. Another example of this would be, just because I despise the new Star Wars movies doesn't mean I'll go and nag people who enjoy them, and start arguing how the pre-Disney Star Wars movies are better. There's no real point in doing that, and it will just annoy them (not saying AoS is as bad as Disney SW, thankfully). As many others have already said, GW really handled WHF poorly, which is why we're in this whole situation. Anyways, I hope you continue to enjoy playing and don't let other people's disappointments affect your experience. Cheers.
Better game system with aos.... But the lore , the setting and new style of armies ie the sigmarines are why I stay away and play with the old armies with the new rule set
Whatever you play as long as you enjoy it that’s cool. That’s the beauty of this hobby. All you need is someone to play against and you can tailor the rules/background/models to suit 👍🏼
Thanks Valvetrain! I just never understand people having to put down one game to show how great theres is. Everyone is entitled to play whatever they like.
You cut me deep brah! GW stopped supporting LOTR till the hobbit came out for years but the community stayed strong with focal people. I feel the same as you but not as strongly against comparing the games as they were both written and supported by gw in the past, while I came from the Lizardmen vs Britonians starter (4th I think!) And enjoy AoS2 as each release and update helps clarify what is a growing system. Going from a "complete" fantasy system where your armies are balanced and set to a new shiny system which had a few glaring flaws in gameplay and balance wasn't for most and once they started to "codex" creep with each new chamber that is opened forcing some to buy each new release and making your last purchase irrelevant from a game play perspective souring for some people. I'm a old school dwarf player but still didn't have the full options available but am interested in the new dwarf forces going forward but have still yet to swap my throng over to round bases! 😇
I agree with you mate really. AOS was a car crash when it launched and its a miracle it survived that early mess but I think what I'm trying to say is we shouldn't compare them now. They're 2 very different games and we don't need to put one down in order to say how good the other one is.
@@BlackJackLegacy I don't believe putting either down but to expect AoS2 to aspire to what Warhammer fantasy was as a fleshed out and great written work of fantasy fluff to accompany a great fantasy wargame as a positive sure. Still plenty more things to come from AoS2 I'm looking forward to but for my forces sadly in the not to near future!
As someone who's played both, AoS has some terrible mechanics. For starters, if I have a handgunner, it will wound both a grot and a keeper of secrets on the same roll. The keeper of secrets is clearly a tougher enemy, but weapons don't seem to care. The wound everyone the same regardless. Another thing I dislike is that magic has no downside. You have no reason not to try to cast every spell you can, because nothing bad will ever happen. Even 40k magic has the potential to backfire. Why have something as powerful as magic and not have a drawback to using it? The last thing I'd like to mention is summons. As long as an army that does summons has characters alive, they have the potential to reinforce their army. They get this special summon points from doing well, doing poorly, and some just get it from the turn. I don't think I need to mention how broken it is for you to wipe out a horde of bloodletters only to face another summoned horde, or bamn a surprise KoS has been added to the game.
old video but see xbox 1 is an upgrade to an xbox 360. it has almost everything the same (except the profile avatars) in general, the xbox 1 is better than the 360. and many xbox 360 games are compatible with the xbox 1 so u can play it just like you had an xbox 360. Using this example is basically saying Fantasy is not as good as age of sigmar,and that age of sigmar is a newer, better version of fantasy. which is arguably not so depending who you ask. Xbox 1 is a definite better version of the xbox360 no questions asked
Thanks Nick. Like it or loathe it the minis are great in the main part. I enjoy the game but I can see why others are annoyed at the end of Fantasy however.
tbh, it's mostly Games Workshops fault, that people hate on AoS so much. If it was a spinoff (like it is), few people would have a problem with it. But the fact that the old format was killed and replaced leaves old fans rather bitter. Understandably so. Like, the comparison is unavoidable, since AOS is literally the successor to WFB now. Your old game is dead, this is the new game now. You don't like it? Too bad, because you can't buy it anymore. Good luck looking for it on ebay. That's not quite fair to AoS as a game, but GW handled the entire situation so incredible badly, it's really, really no suprise. Even 5 years later, people are still bitter.
I feel utter betrayed by launching Aos. In the fantasy game every faction had they own story and motives. But in Aos everything Lorewise became extremely human-centric which the other fantasy races are nearly irrelevant. Who wants humans to be the lead race in a fantasy universe? How incredibly boring.
Hi Remi, I’d agree that when AOS launches the background was poor and nowhere near as rich and deep as WFB however I would say that with a few years under its belt it’s much better, less human centric and has a story arc. WFB still has a lot more background because of how long it was around however it’s worth giving the new stuff for AOS a try as it’s really moved on and improved. Thanks for watching and commenting.
I personally hate Age of Sigmar purely because it replaced Warhammer Fantasy. Not the actual game, I never played it myself, but the lore and story. I'm a huge collector of Warhammer literature of all sorts. I've read the Time of Legends, Gotrek & Felix, Thanquol & Boneripper, Brunner the Bounty Hunter, Blackhearts, the Vampire Wars, the Archaon series and many more. More than that, I just fell in love with the lore, and still regularly reads it to this this day. It was a world which inspired me, that has given me plenty of ideas.
And then GW goes and throws it all in the dumbster with their rushed and poorly executed End Times nonsense. So many plotlines that will never be answered, so many characters whose final fate is never revealed beyond "and then he died", and so much potential wasted. This is what pisses me off the most, how my absolute favorite Fantasy world was lost in such a shitty way.
I will admit, I would have been okay with the End Times if they handled it properly. If they took the time and effort to craft it in a consistent and believable fashion. But no, they needed to push Age of Sigmar out onto the market as quickly as possible, so End Times had to be wrapped up as fast as humanly possible, resulting in a huge clusterfuck that made little to no sense.
Whilst never reading the Old World lore I have to 100% agree with you. There was no reason to not continue with the Fantasy novels for example and a better ending may have left fans with a more fulfilled end. Thanks so much for watching and taking the time to comment.
It may have been before your time but did you ever come across the Warhammer global campaign "Storm of Chaos?" It was better written/handled than the End Times except for the conclusion. The SoC campaign creators/leaders wanted one thing but the fans wanted another, resulting in a comical collapse (if you could call it a conclusion at all). I was a huge collector of Warhammer literature so here are few questions that you can either answer or ignore...
Although Fantasy has finished, would you be interested in a "Brunner" conclusion being released? Where Brunner get vengeance on his long time enemy, you probably know who I mean. Which Gotrek and Felix books did you like best or least? Did you have any favourite books, series or warhammer characters?
Although you didn't ask, I'll give answers to the first two questions. Just so this seems even I suppose.
I would love a Brunner final book where he achieves his final goal, and I would happily pay for a copy. I believe that it would be a very rewarding book. My favourite G&F books were "Skavenslayer," "Beastslayer" and perhaps "Vampireslayer." I disliked "Giantslayer" (King's last G&F book) and after reading "Manslayer" the next G&F book, I stopped reading G&F altogether. I don't like time travel in my books and the Kingless G&F books just seemed badly written to me. But that is probably only my tastes.
Anyway, I would love to hear your views or the views of any-one reading this....
While I did not partake in the campaign (never actually played Fantasy as previously mentioned) I did read about that mess of a campaign. Chaos was supposed to be the big bad to threaten the world, but they kept losing battle after battle and barely made it out of their starting locations, forcing Games Workshop to improvise with some hilarious results.
And yes, I would absolutely love a conclusion to Brunner's tale, for a chance at that final showdown. As to favorite Gotrek and Felix, I think it's gotta be Skavenslayer, purely because it gave us Grey Seer Thanquol. And I have to agree with you about the series, the quality seems to have been on a steady decline since King left the series. The last one I read was Zombieslayer (I believe that was it anyways, it's where they fight Heinrich Kemmler).
Concerning favorite books, I've got several. For starters, we've got Valkia the Bloody, Riders of the Dead (though the ending disappointed me), the Blackhearts series, the Time of Legends series (all of them) and the Thanquol and Boneripper series.
Valkia the Bloody was a good book, what I liked about it (amongst other things) was how the book and people/plot continued after Valkia achieved her goal (apotheosis) and how one can see the personalities develop/grow over time.
Regarding the "Time of Legends," I absolutely totally loved "The Sundering" (really loved it), I enjoyed only the last book of the "War of Vengeance" (Kyme's writing style doesn't hook me, I missed the middle book but I'm a big fan of Werner), I know that's weird and I only picked up the Legend of Sigmar yesterday. Nagash's legend was a bit too exotic for me, I'm not saying that its bad in any way, I just don't read Warhammer for the Tomb Kings.
The Thanquol & Boneripper books have been good/great if I remember correctly, the parts with Thanquol within seemed a bit better than the parts without. But Thanquol is one of the most enjoyable characters of Warhammer, it is probably easy to keep him entertaining. He is one fantasy character whom almost everybody loves.
It was a shame that the Witch Hunter books were never able to completely finish (as AoS jumped in) but most people believe that the first book was the best of the three. However I would like/love a Witch Hunter conclusion to happen. It won't happen, of course.
Anyway, you don't need to remember these next books but did you ever read "Necromancer" or "The Enemy Within?" They focused more on character mindplay than on action, "Van Horstmann" tried to do something similar but it was a bit clumsy about it (not that I'm saying that Van Horstmann was bad).
Also if I start chewing your ear off, let me know and I'll stop.
What I liked most about Valkia was that it gave us a glimpse into how life was for the Norscans whenever they were not rampaging in the south, made them seem more human and even sympathetic at times.
While I adore all of them, my personal favorite has to be the Legend of Sigmar. It was just so interesting to read about the man that would one day be a god, to see not only his triumphs and great deeds, but also his mistakes and moments of weakness.
Best part in the Thanquol and Boneripper series has to be Thanquol's Doom, where he meets both Ikit Claw and Queek Headtaker, and we get to see just how fucking stubborn the Dwarfs can be with new inventions.
Sad to say that I'm not all that familiar with either of those works. I'll have to see if I can find them somewhere.
Warhammer fantasy was a deep exciting world to imagine. Like a lot of other players, my love for it started with Hero Quest, with a simple barbarian fighting through a dungeon. Then I read the Konrad Trilogy, which is still the gold standard for warhammer story telling. The world was dirty, corrupt, mysterious and in a strange way, believable. Now we have undying sigmarines in realms of light, in a universe the Hero Quest barbarian would have no place in... wipes away tear.
AOS is definitely not Fantasy as we know it. It doesn’t instantly make it bad (some of the early stuff was awful but it’s much better now) however to just throw it away like they did ... that’s a massive shame.
@@BlackJackLegacy When Age of Sigmar is not Warhammer Fantasy, why does it contain so many factions from Warhammer Fantasy, even characters? I'm not a Warhammer-Fan, even though I know Warhammer Fantasy from my friends in School, 30 years ago. I got interested in the lore by playing total war. Yet, seeing what they did to Fantasy and what it was "replaced" with, instantly puts me off. It makes no sense to "kill off" the entire old universe and franchise, only to put one half of its factions in the exact same manner into the new universe and just rebrand the other half. That is just bad and silly. For me Warhammer Fantasy with its characters and factions will be an anchor of interest, while I don't even know what to make of Age of Sigmar. Is it a parallel universe, is it the universe into which Archaon and its chaos-stuff spawned in from the void after destroying the old universe? Lore needs to be consistent and "parallel" universe shit is just that ... shit, the same bad stuff as alternate universes. The entire superhero branches are full of this shit and it is all so fucking bad. If GW would have pulled off an entire new universe and factions I would find that interesting, also converting all the old stuff into a complete new rule system, yes. But this? Even me as someone from the "outside" can just shake his head seeing this nonsense.
@@yosoy1loco the players in my area call it Age of Buffalo Bill (like silence of the Lambs) because it wears Warhammers skin because at the time those in power didnt like fantasy and wanted to try and get something out of the IP. so remember be weary of AoBB as it says "would you play me?, I'd play me."
I'm kinda sick of the "just play fantasy, if you like it". I would love to, but it's a dead game, and people tend to gravitate to the living games. If the player base was infinite, no problem! But it isn't...
I do appreciate that but if the game just doesn’t have the playerbase then maybe it’s time to look at other games. My comments were more aimed at the people who still yearn for it to come back but feel the need to put down other games and especially bash that game in forums or groups designed for fans of that game.
BlackJack Legacy Yeah, I get it. I build up an army over 10+ years, so I might still be a bit salty. ;)
Edit: And I play all the games I get a chance to! Even AoS.
That’s totally understandable. I’m not a quick painter and it’s one of the things that puts me off larger scale games.
I agree.. it's GW that betrayed its fanbase, they saw a bigger market opportunity in the entry level crowd. Comprehensible but rude and potentially suicidal.. we'll see in the long run as they are doing the same with 40k, they simply adopted a more progressive and respectful approach (they did not penned off the dark angels or split them into 3 armies). Plus in many cases the sci-fi hardcore crowd already had switched to infinity and warmachine these days so on that front the problem is less pronounced. Anyway fantasy was the last bastion of the hardcore fantasy, it was not just another fantasy game. There currently ain't no substitute for it.
I think GW’s shares show they made the right “business decision” but did alienate a lot of people to do it. When they launched 8th edition 40K I think they learned a lot from the mess of Fantasy/AOS. Fantasy wise games like Kings of War and now Conquest are trying to fill that gap but the Warhammer Fantasy lore however is harder to replace.
I don't play tabletop, but I found the Old World had much better designs.
Went to Games Workshop today with my Dad and it broke my heart when he asked where the Tomb Kings were.
I don't play the game, but I read the lore, and the old world lore is way better than the new age of sigmar, many special characters are now the gods of the new setting and many amazing character are in limbo or gone.
The new AOS lore is definitely catching up. Dont forget the Old world lore had about a 30 year head start!
It's funny I am watching this now in 2020 and Warhammer: The Old World has been anounced
It has but I'm not sure it's going to be a like for like replacement of what Fantasy was. Time will tell I guess.
@@BlackJackLegacy I am just hoping that the rules and lore will be similar enough to be enjoyed instead of having to play AOS
It will never happen
Maybe the setting will be back. But not the 6e glory days.
It will compete with Age of Sigmar and lead to both games suffering and dying.
@@dnaseb9214 I still play 6e, that's a great game.
@@OfficialDeathdog
me too, it has the most factions and most balance
IT AIN'T JUST THE GAME for goodness sake! The game is just one aspect of this "NEW" universe. People hate what GW did to years of beloved & well established lore. Only people defending this messy plot hole extravaganza are people like you who haven't even experienced WH fantasy for themselves!! That's a common trend with you AOS players! You don't even get it!! ,cause you didn't follow WHF for 20 years.
I myself am a 40K guy. But I feel the fantasy guys' pain. They poured their hard earned cash (for near decades in some cases) into a hobby that is no longer supported. Specially since it has been replaced by an INFERIOR product!!!
The new lore STILL feels like a cheap 40k knockoff!!! WTF are you people talking about?? These universes are NOT just all about the game and the models! They are far bigger than that....
I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make raven beast.
I do completely understand why people are pissed at what happened. The point I’m making is that airing those views in an AOS Fan page doesn’t solve anything - saying one game is terrible doesn’t make the other game better and it goes both ways for AOS and Fantasy. I’m not a massive AOS player and as you say I never played Fantasy so don’t have an opinion on which is better.
I also said that 32 years of Fantasy lore would be very difficult for AOS to compete against but that it is improving. Since I made this video the new Soul Wars set has been released and I do believe the lore has improved again but still has some way to go to challenge the legacy of Fantasy lore.
Thanks for watching and commenting and I do appreciate seeing all sides of the conversation.
@raven beast I feel the same way. Warhammer Fantasy had class and AoS has shiny bling bling for the uneducated.
Let me help 1 dont do a vs unless you are willing to play both. 2 you claim it is the better of the two without any knowledge. 3 Stop doing videos that you have no intention of being involved. So your choice is to either pick up the game, wish I could but lost everything even thousands of dollars on Dwarven Army books Van Sarr gang. I saw a group play age of sigmar, it's a 40k knock off from the company that should know better. Or dont and understand this will continue.
I think you missed the point of the video. I never said one game was better than the other. I said that don’t put one game down to make the other seem better. I said players of both games were guilty of this. I never said at any point in this video that AOS was better than Fantasy.
@@BlackJackLegacy All I will say is till you experience it do not answer me. When you do, then say which you like better as you did say that more than once.
I don't really miss the game itself - I sold my Empire somewhere between 7th and 8th edition. But the lore... God damn... WHFB's lore was so good, you could read stories about it and have rpgs in it. It was for fantasy setting, what WH40k is for sci-fi. Grimdark, exciting, immersive.
Age of Sigmar on the other hand..? Very generic mix of absolute mediocrity. Sanitized too, so more kids can play. Meh...
The lore for AOS has a long way to go to catch up to Fantasy however Fantasy has had a 30 year head start and the new AOS stuff is light years ahead of the initial stuff that was released at launch. It looks like AOS 2nd edition looks to be bringing in a big chunk of Fantasy inspired rules and magic so will be interesting to see how it pans out. Thanks for watching and commenting 👍🏼
I don't really see the lore for aos as THAT sanitized, specially post-RGW and the current soul wars.
@@BlackJackLegacy AoS Lore is trash.
@@BlackJackLegacy no sir. it is dull and inconsistent. All the idea of mortal realms is so confusing and messed up. THe High fantasy style is much less immersive than the grim and raw style of Old fantasy world .
yep it's not the rules.. GW destroyed an world that had a consistency and a richness that is just incomparable to what we were given. This is what we hate, not AOS. Most armies have been fragmented, others put together with complete disrespect for the lore, minis are now designed to be easy to paint (more "complicated" armies have fallen into oblivion.. empire.. high-elves... substituted by horrible golden space marines). It was an operation driven by accountants. U may appreciate AOS for its simplicity but simplicity could have been achieved without compromising what we had.
obviously GW decided they could not/did not want to compete with infinity, warmachine etc in terms of gameplay so they decided to abandon the hardcore crowd and concentrate on the newbies. Which is fine but kinda rude so no point in blaming it on us now. Apart from the fact that fantasy is arguably the area where Warhammer did not have strong competitors (apart from Hordes) so they could have tried to salvage what they had instead of giving up on their loyal fanbase and repaying them with the stormcast.
Hey Federico, I don’t blame the players for what happened I just think that those players (either Fantasy or AOS fans) don’t need to say that one game is terrible to try and prove the other is better. I don’t think the reason GW got rid of Fantasy was because of Hordes or Infinity. I just think traditional Fantasy just wasn’t as popular and the gap in sales between 40K and Fantasy proved this. It didn’t mean that Fantasy didn’t have a large fan base but maybe the sales just weren’t big enough for a company with shareholders to keep happy. It’s a shame it went the way it did without trying to update it to fit with a changing market but what’s done is done now O guess.
yes precisely, GW died long ago since it was quoted on the stock exchange. At that point it transformed into something different, it is not something we can complain about in 2018 (still that's the reason that informs GW's decisions today). I remember what it was at the beginning of the 90s when it mostly targeted Europe and it was driven by passion and not accountants. Concerning WHF the problem in my opinion was not the fantasy setting (they are currently rebooting the hobbit... total war Warhammer was a huge success as a videogame...) but the fact that WHF required lots of minis, a big investments in terms of money and painting time. Also it was far more complicated to play and paint than 40k. Here they are trying to go basic, to attract kids and teenagers: that's where their money is in their opinion. Fair enough but was it necessary to abandon the hardcore crowd? Was it necessary to make many old models unusable? Was it necessary to rename all armies and split them into little pointless mini armies? To put together dark elves and high elves? The only thing I am personally happy about is that the Chaos Dwarves are still a thing! Some new minis here and there still look ok (nighthaunt look great!). AOS casual games gan be fun actually. I am not protesting about the transition to a new game system in order to make more money, I am protesting against the way it was done.
I'm appalled at how many people have missed the point, entirely. I'd like to see people's reactions if you spent a long time building your house, and the historic value of the location inspired authors to write books about it, which we immensely popular within the community. You even had your friends help you to build said perfect house, and now you are invested economically, emotionally and with the amount of time you've spent on it, as well as being able to read about all the history associated with said location. Then one day, when you are nearly finished building, you find that someone has burnt down this house, and replaced it with a toilet and the people who did this are saying hey try it out it will be just as good, if not even better. Moreover, the historic value has now plummeted to the abyss because there is nothing more to write about so you can't even enjoy reading about what you used to build and enjoy. To pour salt on the wound, you have people like yourself who walk up and say hey this toilet is so easy to use, you don't have to build anything to use this toilet - they've never even attempted to build their own house, or have experienced the excitement that involves, but they come up to you and say to stop saying how bad the toilet is, you are somehow meant to ignore years of work and history and good times and amazing art/writing because THEY have suddenly dropped in and you should be grateful for it. You are suddenly meant to ignore perfectly natural points of view and reactions to what was basically shitting on your work, you're not meant to be salty about it. I'd like to see you not being salty after something like that. O and don't forget that these people who like the new toilet are telling you hey there's another plot by a swamp which you can go to start building again - you should just go there, plus its cheaper! I then point out the obvious fallacies in that argument when people like you say, oh but you can get together with fellow builders who have lost their projects to the same shit-show and pretend you're still building like the good old days. Do you see the hypocrisy and downright disrespect in these witless arguments that people like you make to WFB fans?
Then you dare to compare AOS and WFB to 360s and XboxOnes? I have no words...
Additionally, you cannot make a video comparing the two games if you haven't played WFB. Well, I want to see YOUR reaction if that ever happens, which frankly it won't. And, even by some miracle if it does, the new toilet never had the cultural impact, the economic impact, the storytelling impact and the community development impact that the house did so the loss won't feel half as bad. The utter disrespect is so obvious in common sense that is too obvious, like a COD nerd talking about how war is so cool to a Vietnam vet, triggering his PTSD - ok that was a shit comparison but the points is made. Good day, sir!
I'm currently getting into 40k tabletop, and a large part of why is the total war franchise making me love the lore of the universe. I've always been tangentially interested in GWs games. It feels really bad to only have this weird, watered-down version of the universe I fell in love with left when I finally arrive to engage with it.
To me Warhammer fantasy lives on in digital form with Creative Assembly’s Total War: Warhammer series.
Let me anwser that in a second: Because the blew up one game, to create space for another. So its a succesor. even tho its a completely different game. Doesnt matter how much you tell me its good or whatever, i liked fantasy, its not there anymore because of age of sigmar which is what people keep telling me to play instead..
So thats why we keep comparing. Im happy you are happy with age of sigmar. But maybe dont be a dick to those of us who would have no other problem with age of sigmar other then that they killed fantasy for it..
If it was released on the side no one would have this problem, no one would still be comparing.
BTW before you talk to me about the rules, i barely play, i just love the old blocks more, i like how it looks on the table. I'm sure age of sigmar has its apeal. I just dont understand why they had to blow up the old world. Lots of people are still satly. And after the sheer amounts of money we put in, i think its fair we get to have expectations.
I completely appreciate your point of view and for what it’s worth I’m not a big AOS fan. I’ve played it but don’t play it anymore. I never played WFB and so I’m not comparing them. This was about people hating on one game in a place where fans of another are and that goes for both game systems.
There was obviously business reasons why GW did what they did and their recent financial success would suggest from a purely business point of view they made the right decision but I can understand people’s anger after sinking time and money into a game only to have it no longer supported.
That said I still stand by the fact that the game still exists and can be played - it’s just no longer supported.
This was more about the fact that people feel the need to hate on one game to try and make their game sound better. In reality it’s not just limited to these two games.
Whether you agree with me or not I do thank you for watching and taking the time to write a comment on how you feel. 👍🏼
It is surprising that the blew up Fantasy to make AoS when they did not have to do that to create 40k, or blow up 40k to make 30k. A quick fix would be to retcon the End Times as a false history for AoS. Put AoS in the Warp completely as a reflection of the Old World. The desires of the Chaos Gods created an illusion that tricked them.
@@jacobcaster exactly!! I'm not even angry they say chaos won. I'm the lore we know that the world has been restarted. We don't know if it's 10 or 400 times. But that's part of the lore. Chaos has always won.
But there is no reason to stop supporting fantasy, the models are actually cheap to make once you have the molds. They can use the same tables in the stores. If they want to only sell it online that's fine.
But I can't but empire Knights to finish my army anymore. Many other models are out of stock. Most stores don't welcome you anymore as fantasy players. And insist I should move on. But aos isn't the same. I like the big blocks. I don't need new models, plenty of armies that I could collect after the ones I started. But now I can't even finish...
To be fair, most people are not complaining about the game. It's what they did to the lore that pisses people off. Warhammer Fantasy had been handled horribly in the previous 2 seasons (7th and 8th), to the point that it was basically unplayable. I quit Fantasy around "Storm of Magic" because a single "new" model (a necrosphinx) was able to defeat my whole "old" army without problem. And there was nothing I could do to stop it.
But the lore... well, to say that GW pissed all over the lore is an understatement. The End Times were a mockery of everything that was established until then, and to make things worse they did it as a cheap way to achieve "shock value". To make a similarity, it's like trying to copy the "horror" of the original The Exorcist through a movie made exclusively of jumpscares.
Then, after that travesty, they essentially killed the Old World and put the AoS instead, which is basically a "generic fantasy setting number 3851". Mind me, it's not a "bad" setting in any sense of the world, but it has NOTHING original or particularly appealing.
The Old World was a dark, gritty and yet strangely hopeful setting. A setting where the normal people knew they were doomed, but still refused to surrender. A setting in which there were few heroes and good people, who shined like stars in the darkness.
AoS, on the other hand? A simple "good gods vs evil gods" setting, where all problems can be solved by Sigmar opening a new vault and new problems are created by Nagash dickery. It's the perfect setting for a Wargame, since the universe is now so big that NOTHING can really change the status quo. But the fact that nothing is important enough to make a difference, no heroism and no act of villainy has any REAL repercussion, makes the lore feel distant and meaningless to me.
I think AOS lore has come a long way since its early stuff and whilst it still has 20 years to catch up with WFB at least it's improving. What I'm getting at in this video is that we shouldn't put one game down in order to say how good another is. It stinks what GW did and the way they did it however what prompted this video (a while back now) was a constant stream of players of both games slating the other. I just wanted people to enjoy their game and not worry about the other one.
Thanks for taking the time to watch and comment Vale.
@@BlackJackLegacy You're welcome! Also, recent news suggest that Games Workshop is actually gonna revive the old Warhammer, or something like that. There is a new project called "Warhammer the Old World" that has made an appareance these days.
ValeTheHowl - time will tell if it’s really the old WFB or just a link in name only. I’m sure we’ll know more soon.
People hate AOS because they not only killed WF, but they also replaced it with a game that is not even close to similar. They left the players that love pitched, epic battles with nothing. Thats why there is a fanatical following for WF and many people hating on AOS.
I understand people were annoyed back when WF was stopped (putting it mildly!) but if there’s such a fanatical following for WF why still hate on AOS? Unless those people have played the latest version of AOS the hate is misplaced as you don’t have to hate on one game to show your love and support if another.
I'm still salty about the death of Fantasy but I don't blame them, and admit I could be just nostalgic for it.
Not really seen people comparing them directly so can't speak on that. For a different analogy, you could say it is like rebooting an old classic cult film but maybe doing it decently!
There’s a lot of nostalgia there. I heard nothing but people complaining about Fantasy locally before it ended but no one wanted it gone. There’s a little rose tinted glasses now like there is with people saying 2nd edition 40K was the best.
This video has aged well lol. WHFB is coming back as The Old World, I guess all that complaining paid off.
I hate it because they sold 5 books at 150$ each. The end times falsely led people to believe the game would be supported. Then it was immediately killed. They wanted as much money as possible from the fantasy community right before kicking them in the ass and saying “how about GOLD space marines?”
I do totally understand your viewpoint when it comes to those books - that realy was a dirty trick to launch so much and say niothing to customers. My main point was more about bashing one game to say another is better but its been good to get a wider viewpoint of why there was so much ill feeling then and still to this day. Thanks for watching and commenting too.
I miss Bretonnia and I cannot buy NEW Bretonnian figures from GW and I have to either turn to Ebay or 3rd party sources. I bring my Bretonnian knights into AoS because that is what everyone else plays so I grit my teeth and bring my superior Square bases and Bretonnians and play my favorite armies which where either canned or super nerfed.
God has it really been 3 years sense gw killed the best setting ever to replace it with crap? ... Time flys. Rip
Yeah 3 years! Crap is a matter of opinion but yeah it doesn’t feel that long ago.
I will never forget the day it came out. No balance. No points. And you get +1 attack to grail knights if you drink from a big cup during the game.
Yeah the day it released the rules were a car crash. It wasn’t until 12 months later with the Generals Handbook that it started to resemble a proper wargame worth playing in my opinion anyway.
The Old world was magical and I loved that game. Makes me sad that they killef it off. GW has had a bad rep for a long time though... At least when I was younger, they went from a fan driven community to well.. Being a bit money hungry, of course it is a company so their aim is profit but it used to have more of a role playing community feel to it. And the lore was dark and gritty and not as polished as it is today, and that was what were the magic with Warhammer, the dark and gritty.
Warhammer Fantasy was an army game. Mordheim was a skirmish game. WF had formations. Because it had formations, there were rules that applied to formations. Mordheim did not, AOS has coherancy rules for a game that does not have formations which makes no sense. AOS isn't an army game or a skrimish game, it's a made up game.
Does that mean 40K is a made up game too? It has coherency rules?
Just because it doesn’t fit into a gaming label doesn’t mean is a bad game. It also doesn’t really have anything to do with the point of this video either - you can love the game or you can hate the game but the point of the video was that you don’t have to say how much you hate one game to show how much you like another ... they can all exist if they have a player base.
@@BlackJackLegacy both sigmar and 40k are hybrids but lean more towards skirmish wargames.
GW killed its own game with the late 90's early 2000's price increases.....units in the game were high in number, plastic reg boxes came out but at ridiculous price points, and while I was working for GW I saw first hand many Fantasy players pick up 40k (back during 5th) because it was still warhammer, but cheaper!! (hilarious) and abandoned Fantasy....which as an employee even I had by that point....and I got a sweet discount..lol.
You'll have seen it first hand working for GW at the time. A combination of high prices and lots of models needed is certainly one of the reasons I never got into fantasy in those days. Discount is never a bad motivator to start a new army mind :)
Short Answer: Because Fantasy was killed so AOS could exist. So it should be at least as good as HW fantasy!
Oh, and because they still have HW Fantasy Characters in the game, so it's kinda hard to forget about about HW Fantasy
I never said it had to be forgotten about - just that there’s no need to keep saying how terrible one game is to “prove” how good the other is, especially in a group aimed at fans of the game being bashed.
Let's give you an example: You play AOS and GW decides to kill it of and start a new game.
- You spend around 500$ in units you can't use anymore
- The Lore is dead, but the new game parades around names and characters from AOS, reminding you of it.
- The launch was abysmal
- The new Lore is worse (in every way) then AOS
Can you understand the salt?
I completely understand it and 100% agree that the launch was terrible however over 3 years have passed now, going into AOS fan pages and complaining about it now doesn’t change anything. That doesn’t mean you don’t have a valid point - it just means that it doesn’t help fans of WFB to bash AOS.
It's nerd rage, it doesn't have to make sense.
It doesn’t need to make sense is a real poor get out clause though.
Greetings from Germany,
I played WHF since 4th and played a couple of games of AOS, but it did not satisfy my needs, because AOS is a diffrent game. It is not a bad game, but it has nothing to do we the rule set of WHF anymore.
For all those who loved 8th, try play The 9th Age! You can even use your AOS models for 9th Age.
Cheers.
Hey Jun, that’s exactly right - they’re different games so it’s right to try not to compare. 9th Age isn’t something I know a lot about but I’m aware it is pretty popular amongst WFB players. Thanks for watching and commenting 👍🏼
I think a lot of people now appreciate AoS for the gameplay but are still bitter at the idea that GW won't be writing anything in that 30 year old setting. Without fresh content the player/writer base will dwindle.
Despite being part of the same chronology, AoS keeps almost none of the old setting beyond what's on the tabletop (locations or kingdoms). That's OK & AoS lore is starting to get fleshed out but it has a long way to go before it can scratch the same itch that many fantasy players have.
I am hopeful though.
I can still play my 360 games on Xbox 1, so the money I spent on those games isn't money I've thrown down the toilet. As an analogy this one doesn't work. Games Workshop's design is to force players to spend money on new items. We saw this pattern repeat itself in five-year cycles with Warhammer Fantasy as each new Army Book featured new and expensive models that became essential if you wanted to play competitively with the army. We also came to expect that the latest Army Book to come out would average more victories than the last one. The effect was as intended; players sold off old models and bought the new ones so they could have the most competitive army. Then three things began to happen. First, veteran players stopped getting rid of their old models because they knew a new Army Book would come again, and they knew they could reuse most of the models in the new List. Second, Games Workshop ran out of crazy ideas for over-the-top new units to give its new Army Books the win average they needed to encourage sales. Third, veteran players who began playing over ten or fifteen years ago were getting out of the hobby and selling their models to new players for a cheaper price than the absurd prices GW puts on its models. For these reasons, sales for Fantasy Battles slumped. It was also a game that required tactics and clever strategic forethought which didn't appeal to the younger gamers, most of whom on average prefer Warhammer 40K which is more forgiving about deployment and exposed flanks, and GW knows that younger players are more willing to spend money on games than those who support families. The result of all of this was that GW wrote off its old game and stopped supporting it completely, and created Age of Sigmar in an attempt to force players who wish to continue playing to buy new models. The reason it keeps being compared to Warhammer Fantasy is because Fantasy was a much better game. For those of you who enjoyed Fantasy or are thinking about Age of Sigmar, I highly recommend L'Arte de la Guerre. If you are a 40K player I recommend Bolt Action or Flames of War. Historically based games are highly rewarding and no company can tell you Tiger Tanks didn't exist in WWII or attempt to introduce them to a medieval battlefield just so they can sell more models and get away with it. Whatever you decide, I can tell you from my own experience that GW does not and probably never will deserve your loyalty; please understand that before you decide to buy their expensive products.
I forgot a few things...
First, the Lore of AoS is garbage. If I ever meet a failed Science Fiction writer whose work isn't worth reading, I shall send him to Games Workshop knowing he will have a long and lucrative career there...
Second - and most important! - Great video, BlackJack! I appreciate your insight and while I didn't agree with your analogy I thought you did a great job here. If you get a chance, please play a game of Fantasy!!! It will be a slower pace than AoS, but I think you will see the draw it had on its fans for 20 years...
I personally don't see why they needed to kill one to do the other. Why not have two fantasy games, one more user-friendly and -let's call it what it is - simple game, that allows you to start playing in half an hour or so, and another, for another "audience" altogether, longer to set, with more rules and customization options. Hell, you could even have most miniatures cross-over.
I like AOS but I definitely preferred Fantasy especially 7th edition... I do still play it... By this stage they are in no way the same though and are incomparable. I prefer pitched battle style games which is why I play alot of historical... Another great video dude
Thanks Kev. I’m not trying to get people to change how they feel about it, just suggest that we should treat them as separate games and that AOS is it’s own thing now.
Agreed... For me an enjoyable game also... I never got why they had to kill off fantasy to bring forth AOS, they could have made loads of movement trays with circle slots
They massively messed it up and should never have killed off the background but it’s done now. Time to move on.
Agreed!
👍🏼
I'm only just getting into AOS and I am a huge WHFB fan. As you said it had a very shaky launch which is what drove me away back in 2015 when it was fun of ridiculous rules like having a better moustache or talking to imaginary horses. That shit was a slap in the face to the fantasy players. Only with the release of Soul wars is it at the point it should have been at launch. Also I do still play fantasy when I get a chance but AOS is now at a point where I am happy to play.
That’s great to hear you came back to it and you’re right the game is very different to the launch version. I’d never thought about the ridiculousness of those rules being an even bigger slap in the face but I agree thinking about it. Thanks for watching and commenting Dave 👍🏼
AOS gets hate because it “replaced” fantasy which did not sit well with most of us fantasy players because our game was being kicked to the curb so it was an easy target to vent our frustration. I just completed my 5 stages of grief and will be giving the game a chance and yes it took me this long. FYI I have dwarfs and empire so I’m not sure what army I’m going to do but I’m going to give it a shot.
I just miss the units tbh. I come from total war, and want to get into the tabletop....but no Malekith or cool dark elves, or traditional vampire counts....I don’t mind the rules and kinda prefer AoS, but I miss the minis and the characters of fantasy.
Yeah that’s a shame when it brings you in from another source. I’ve been playing a lot of Vermintide 2 recently so I kind of know what you mean.
And now years later, I wanted to try Warhammer Total War 2, but I was disappointed to see that all of the factions I know from Sigmar aren't there.
@@douglasmurdoch7247 fair point
I understand your point but the analogy with the Xbox/Xbox-1 is insufficient. It's more as if Xbox had RPG-tactical games (with limited graphics and so on) as well as others and when Xbox-1 came out they completely stopped all RPG-tactical game production and thus all the nice graphics, etc games (they stand for model quality here, for example) are now FPS. It's kinda frustrating seeing at TYPE of game disappear with a new console, just like it's sad to see SO FKN MANY customization options disappear for no real reason just because we have a new lore, setting, and casting techniques.
I've played AoS once and did not like it. It just didnt click for me and I just had the old WHFB mindset. I love 1990s and Early 2000's GW. I cant believe they killed off WHFB for AoS. Thats just me though. I love all the old models and how awesome GW was back then. Now I wont support them at all (except for some of their technical paints) :)
Theres plenty feel as you do mate and at least you tried it. The difference is you don't hang about in AOS groups hoping it'll come back one day.
Thanks for sharing your experience BlackJack, as a huge WHF fan, it's good to have your perspective on this. My wife just started painting AOS minis while never having played WHF and is curious about the actual game. As she is an otherwise experienced RPG player, I'm hesitating between having us both jump into AOS (which I really, really don't want) and teaching her how to play WHF (which, you guessed it, I'd much rather do). Since it's a big move either way (I doubt we'd play both), I'm trying to hear the best arguments for AOS (I know those for WHF lol) so I can make an informed decision. Thanks again!
I started off playing war games back in the 80’s when I was about 12. My first tabletop game was Warhammer fantasy, then first edition 40k. one of my first rpgs was also Warhammer fantasy. I loved that world, lived it and breathed it every possible moment I could. Then beer, women, work, and other distractions took over and I moved on from the tabletop to pc & console gaming. My love affair with gaming came back about two years ago, mainly through the gateway drug that is ffg’s X-Wing. Simple, looks great and it’s Star Wars. Since then I’ve picked up bolt action, frostgrave, gaslands and a ton of board games. But not AoS.
The reason being that GWs pricing model is ridiculous. It’s Miniatures are absolutely amazing, and a huge leap from what I’d of played with in the late 80 & early 90’s, so I can see why they are priced so high though. Also the AoS lore just hasn’t appealed to me, I’ve watched a few RUclips shows bringing me up to speed with what’s happened and also bought a GW starter magazine explaining changes. And I didn’t feel like it’s a world I want to play in. I think if I actually played AoS I’d like it, I just probably need to have a test game in a gw store or flgs. I’d just need to put the lore behind me and treat it like a competitive game.
Star Wars legion on pre order, can’t wait!
Hey Tim, thanks for watching and commenting.
Have you purposefully stayed away from AOS or just never got round to try it?
BlackJack Legacy Heya, both to be honest. I’ve stayed away on purpose, to save my wallet and I’ve just been enjoying other games and worlds. I will give it a try, then I’ll make up my mind. I’ve honestly got my eye on making a dwarf army but have no idea where to start or if I’ll even enjoy it. Will speak to my flgs or pop into a GW store 👍 love the channel, keep up the great work
Thanks for the kind words Tim. Theres so many great games out there you can happily play a different game every day of the week and never touch a GW game. If its a game that interests you I'd definitely recommend a demo.
A problem with the transfer (from Fantasy to AoS) is that it punished people for caring. The more that a person cared or knew about the Fantasy world, the deeper a stab in the back it was. Please think about the change... The characters were warped into idiotic caricatures of themselves, the Warhammer history was changed/mutilated to allow AoS to happen (not just the present and the future, but the past as well). Imagine how people would react if the current President of Germany demanded that the Holocaust never happened. (This is a bit dramatic but it is more or less the same line of thought.) Surely you can begin to understand a bit of the discontent, and then the Fantasy game is destroyed ENTIRELY so the two separate games couldn't be compared to one another. After all, AoS looks better when there is less to compare it to.
Also how many Fantasy novels/stories do you believe will be created now that AoS has destroyed the Fantasy background? The answer is none. No novels about Fantasy's future (as it doesn't exist) and no novels about Fantasy's past. Another example of people being punished for the act of caring. A few Fantasy novels were on cliffhangers when this happened as well, so now we have good stories whose endings have been violently torn from existence.
(I mean no offence towards you for liking AoS, and I assume that you are a clever person) Also that is before we look at the idiocy of AoS. Honestly, separate space constructs/worlds with teleporters to allow armies to warp to a world for the sole purpose of letting armies fight one another. Do people honestly believe that this is clever? It may be fun to see how close one can get to violent animal animal without being attacked, but is it not a good idea. And that is before we consider things like comparing primitive arrows to futuristic electric hammers.
I assume that if people like GW for the painting or gameplay alone, there would be no/few problems. The transfer only punishes people for caring. That is why people won't shut up, because they truly cared about Warhammer.
My apologies for the negativity but hopefully this will help people understand.
Hey there, no negativity at all. All I see is passion for something you deeply cared about and I do empathise about that. I wasn’t invested so it doesn’t personally effect me but I can understand how a lot of people felt cheated or let down by the change.
There’s no denying that GW could have and should have handled this in a much better way.
On a slightly different note its interesting to see that the Old World lives on in computer games with games like Total War and Vermintide so it definitely shows the world that was created still has appeal in this day and age.
Thanks for taking the time to comment on this. 👍🏼
In defence of AoS, the final "Warhammer Army Books" were terribly written (compared to the earlier Warhammer Army Books). There is good reason why many people are told to avoid the 8th edition Warhammer army books. Here is my reply moral/point/lesson now, just in case one tires of reading... although Fantasy Warhammer's main written material was dying in quality, (excluding novels) AoS slashed Fantasy's throat before Fantasy had a chance to improve (or get worse). Also there was stupidity within (recent) Fantasy as well.
For example, some terribly written "last army book" characters and histories were already warping/warped (such as Malekith, Morathi and Tyrion) before the End Times & transfer to prepare people for AoS. Even if we exclude everything written closely related to the End Times & afterwards, the "recent" written material is clumsy, stupid and often conflicts with earlier, better material on the same topics. For example, the writers have forgotten that elves and eldar/aeldari/drukhai are not the same beings, and that elven souls were not automatically destined for Slaanesh. Other examples include Malekith's new/old girlfriend & Tyrion's personality change.
This might make you laugh, there was a successful High Elf hero Eltharion (the Grim) who was blinded by Malekith, who later in life miraculously regained his vision so Tyrion could be allowed to lose his sight for AoS. Despite there already having a blind elf hero in HE, only Tyrion can advance and must lose his vision to do so.
The new Fantasy (army) models were stupid as well, created to attract children but they only attracted snickering. Examples include "Demigryph Knights" (Empire) who use halberds (large, double-handed weapons) while holding a shield and riding the mini-griffons who bear them, the ridiculous medusaes (Dark Elves), the flying bolt throwers and elves sitting on burning phoenixes (HE)
.
However the novels could be really good, and not every novel reader enjoys reading about Space Marines.
Finally here is the original reply point (again). although Fantasy Warhammer's main written material was dying in quality, (excluding novels) AoS slashed Fantasy's throat before Fantasy had a chance to improve (or get worse).
So please don't feel too disheartened by my opinions as there is stupidity on both sides on the fence and remember that I am only one man.
Everything you say is 100% right. I’m not surprised to hear that the books started to wind down towards the end. Some might say it was a tactic to ease the transition!
blindlobster great reply, and I think it shows how much the community really did care about Fantasy. Just a shame that GW didn’t spend the time getting it right...
Most of the lore issues of AoS that were initially criticized are being addressed a lot in recent Malign Portents short stories. They are about these 'named cities' that the forces or Order are trying to protect, with 'normal people' that we can relate to as protagonists
I agree Wanjin, the new stuff is excellent and really much darker and interesting than the initial generic stuff.
With no model support with 20+ year old modes
There are a few points which you don't understand as you haven't played WHF before - I've been playing and collecting warhammer since I was 9 (18 years ago):
1.) A huge part of WHF was continuous new releases. With stopping the support that is no longer going to happen.
2.) The Community is pretty much gone, there is no one left to play with (it was unbalanced as f**k anyway).
3.) Many players blame AoS for the death of WHF since the actual reason for killing WHF off seemed to be to introduce "Sigmarines" since Space Marines were the NR.1 selling point of 40k.
4.) The way they shut down WHF was a spit and kick in the face of the players.
Well that was caused by an incapable CEO. The new one finally engages people in Social Media, the company remains greedy as hell though.
I see AoS rather as a continuation of the WHF story which is fine (the story is currently builing up background which rocks).
Besides that AoS has a good flow to it playwise though the stacking of synergies gets absurd rather quickly (30+ Sekeletons with 4-5 attacks and double pile in anyone?)
About Khemri: You can still play them as part of the Grant alliance death. Just use Neferata/Arkhan as leader and it actually makes sense fluffwise =)
I agree with a lot of what you say. Theres little attraction in playing an unsupported game as theres nothing new to buy - I totally get that. I'm not sure I agree with your reason the GW killed off WFB to introduce a Space Marine like faction. From all the info I've read and things I've been told WFB was in a rut due to complex point of entry for new players and older players just not buying enough new models to support it all. Rebooting the game and drawing on an easier entry point has cetainly proved financially successful for GW and at the end of the day thats what theyre about - making money.Your agree on the AOS lore too. Its quickly improving and I like the new direction.Thanks for watching and commenting :)
So Joining the friendly discussion here.
First of, TL;DR: I am on the fence about it, I accept and in most part appreciate the AoS Lorewise, it is a cool setting, but I have a hard time enjoying it gamewise. I think that fantasy is a superior system which is much more stimulating for me, I like the complexity of it.
To start of, I am super salty, something I am not proud of, but I cannot help it, the feelings are there.
I agree with you, they are completely different games, and they should be treated as such.
But I think that the part that sets things awry is the replacing part, replace is a big scary word which sets a lot of emotion in motion, it is also this word that provokes the comparing of the systems
So now I am going to ignore the initial question and compare them anyway, for I am a weak human being.
Now I have tried to play Age of Sigmar alot as well as read some of the books.
The system itself is so much easier to get into, and offers a kind of arcadey fun that you would expect out of most tabletop games.
There is a certain amount of depth in that all units have their own abilities as well as different armies and combinations bringing new abilities as well.
The thing is, as a fantasy player since time immemorial, I enjoyed the complexity of the game, it was hard to get into and hard to play and I loved it.
For me AoS feels more like magic: the gathering: the miniature game, with a limited amount of core stats to give a simple ground to stand on and abilities to set units apart.
This is where the arcade aspect steps in.
AoS took a leap away from the complicated rules, which was an excellent move businesswise, as it is now as easy to get into as any tabletop game.
But it took away the gritty realism (for a lack of better words) in the system, sacrificing morale and movement play, to name a few, for a more streamlined hack'n'slash experience with epic heroes on all sides.
I love the huge battles, 300 models on each side, moving and countermoving to give just that small edge that would tilt the battle and promote a mass route of the enemy force, with characters just small parts of the whole.
I can still do that in AoS, but people in my group tend to get antsy whenever I play massed infantry armies, stretching across the entire board, a proverbial sea of models to cut through to get to any hope of a juicy center.
On to the world and the models/armies.
I have nothing against the world, it is still a dark an gritty place, and they have done an excellent job at building a world through which they can tell an infinite amount of stories, though it still lacks the comprehensible setting that the Old World provided, I have seen some promising signs in that they are trying to build up kingdoms in much the same way, with all the room to expand further.
The new armies that come out though, I am not as happy with, it seems to get a little out of hand with the high fantasy stuff.
Yet again, I am more of a rank and file/massed armies-person, so the whole everything is special and/or heroes thing that they've got going does not really cut it for me.
And the Sigmarines...
I both love and hate these golden paragons of Sigmars righteous fury.
On one hand, I absolutely hate the concept of everyone being immortal heroes, all of them being the perfect people.
One the other hand, they are cool models, what with the large armours and the big hammers, and I love big shields.
And the signs as of late, of them being flawed, with every reincarnation stripping them of humanity and empathy, I quite like that.
But seriously, space marines in fantasy, come on GW, surely you are better than this?
Wow, this got longer than I anticipated, I think I need to speak to someone about this.
I hope that I did not step on anyones toes, I have a tendency to do that when speaking of this subject and I am working on it.
If you read through all of this, I salute you and thank you for your time.
Hey there, thanks for watching and commenting and I'm glad its been a constructive chat on both sides of the debate.
I cant say I agree or disagree on Fantasy being a superior system as I never played it. All I'd say is that the complexity that you enjoyed was a barrier to me getting into it. Maybe not for everyone but it was for me personally.
I think the setting is improving all the time and some of the newer stuff is actually quite dark which I'm enjoying. I guess if we still play AOS in 30 years time then we can really compare which system worked out best.
I agree, it is getting a lot darker.
I recently read through Ghal Maraz and the Gate of Azur books, and they were kind of stale in my opinion.
That being said, the newer stuff, as you said, gets really interesting, I have been thoroughly enjoying the Malign Portents short stories, those are perfect additions to the world what with their depiction of the common person in this grand epic.
I personally loved the story Death at the door, hinting at a sort of Stormcast inquisition, purging the disease ridden villagers.
If we still play in 30 years time, I will be glad to have this conversation again.
Yeah the older original stuff was poor and probably just added to the backlash at the time but the newer stuff is really fleshing out the universe and I think theres some interesting development around Stormcast for sure.
Can I use my original high elves armies from fantasy in age of sigmar.??
Coming soon I understand
This is the kind of chats I like especially with a couple more hosts going back and forth well said mate the console comparison is spot on
Cheers fella. Are you volunteering to come and join me for a AOS ramble sometime?
BlackJack Legacy not so sure about that bit haha sure you won’t be short of volunteers though
Hopefully - I’m no where near as knowledgable on AOS as you guys but I’m trying to catch up!
Ok, I have to ask this because I keep hearing this AoS players. Why do you say if you want to keep playing Warhammer Fantasy, just play it? You guys know that it’s not supported right? And that models and game materials like books wear out? What if I want to expand my army? I can’t do that. I can’t replace any of my models that wear out or break one too many times. Can’t get new books to replace the ones that get lost in a fire or that my kid thought were coloring books. And the poor guys playing Bretonnia or Tomb Kings are even worse off. You need to think that through before dropping that thought. It goes down one of two ways. One, we think you’re a jerk who just doesn’t care, which is fine. We just won’t share tables and move on. Two, you sound like a condescending jerk who feels superior about the fact that you have your game, in which case you really are a jerk and you can go jump in a well. The proper response to old school fantasy players complaining about Fantasy is this, “Yeah, GW fucked up that whole situation and I feel for you missing your game.” And then segue into something recent with your tables’ results. We’re NEVER going to stop winging about it, just like people still complain about Firefly. Just learn to deal with it and don’t look down your nose at people who were forced out of a hobby.
Hey Geoffrey. I just want to clear up I'm not an AOS player (well not anymore anyway). My initial point in this was about people (from both games) saying how much they hated the other one in areas that were dedicated to fans of that game. It doesnt help anyone really.The point about "just play it" was more about the fact that there is still a community for 9th Age/WFB and that it is still possible to play it whilst I do understand that when a game is no longer supported it sucks.I dont think I'm superior or intentionally being condesending so appologies if thats how it comes across. I was trying to illustrate that people can of course be annoyed at the situation they find themselves in (of which I peorsonally think it was a nasty move by GW on how it was handled) but to say how bad another game is wont fix the issue. Hope thats helped to try and explain a little of my intention.
1:19 I think the answer lies right in your question. The game is no longer supported and was instead supplanted by AOS. I think that maybe if both games somehow co-existed, at least for a few years, then there probably wouldn't be as much hate
well if you killed those lizardmen that fought hard.. till the end and wasted you'll be disappointed
12 years ago, I played fantasy and had battle boxes fo armies. Now, I would like to play AOS, because I am starting over. I have no bias towards either game, I would like to learn the differences. How do I go about it, so that I do not spend alot?
Played fantasy but left it back in the 90s and don't miss it. For me AoS is much more accessible and fun to play. They are completely different games. The lore will grow and get better. Even after 32 years the lore for WHFB was never fully explored so it will take time for AoS to grow. Looking forward to see where it goes.
Thats how I feel Paulos. It needs time to full develop lore wise however they're making a great start on it.
Thanks for watching and commenting.
"If you disagree post a comment" as you favorite/pin the first page of comments so nobody can see what people that disagree with you say
I’ve not pinned anything. The order of the comments is controlled by RUclips and I’ve liked and favourited every comment as all are equally welcome.
What makes you think Age of Sigmar got off to a shaky start? Is that more to do with how it was received, or did you initially have your doubts about the structure?
I said that because of how it was universally panned and the idea to launch without points costs just confused people initially. That off the back of killing Fantasy and it’s main crowd weren’t happy.
Fast forward about 12 months and the Generals Handbook gave points and it seemed to start to pick up momentum. I didn’t get into it until after this happened.
Awesome topic once again, my man! I really liked your positive approach on this matter, your willingness to look at both sides, and your message of "play whatever makes you happy". I also felt like your Xbox metaphor was incredibly apt.
This was really enjoyable to listen to. Keep up the awesome, my friend!
~ Wolfbrother Methos
Thanks so much Brother! I’m glad that came across as I was really trying to make sure I was balanced as I’ve never played Fantasy so neither love nor dislike it.
The Xbox metaphor was the best I could think of to try and take it away from the passion people feel for the old world.
Thanks for watching my friend!
You're main flaw is assuming those three groups are the only ones, there are two more. There is the one I am with, that was too young to play fantasy or was intimidated by painting the models and now that we're older we want to get into fantasy but now 2/3 of the models are gone and the rules are gone and if you mention fantasy in a gw or a gaming group everyone just tells you to "move on man". Then there is the second group like my best friend who learned about warhammer through video games like total war warhammer and vermintide, then they decided that they want to play but their favourite armies are gutted and the new lore makes them not want to play. To be frank I hate the "they're a business and they made a smart business move" argument, because A) it would have been easier to just change the rules of fantasy (like they did with 40k 8th edition) to be simpler and then release new models to replace some old ones, and B) the profit motive is fucking horrible and ruins creativity, hell I'd love to personally hand make fantasy models and give them away for free because I just love it so much but because gw is the owner of the copyright I can't, they are the dictators of what gets made and they don't do things because the fans want them, they do things because the lowest common denominator wants them. This isn't at a lol comparable to a new video game console, with that you truly can just get one and have the exact same experience anybody else would have, but with war gaming it can't be done, models are no longer made, entire armies are gone, rules and lore aren't the same, and dangling two or three new armies that are almost just copycats of 40k armies doesn't make it any better. Even if we go with the capitalist approach to this, literally the only thing that will bring back fantasy is protesting. Fantasy and AOS don't even need to be enemies, both can be made at the same time since AOS is just fantasy armies with a few new ones stapled on, warhammer is my life and the second I learned that the old world and fantasy was gone I legitimately debated suicide, yes I know that's a huge over reaction but I've had depression my whole life and seeing the one thing that made me happy go up in smoke then to be told off by fans was devastating. Thank you for reading this to the end I know that was just a huge ramble but I just need somebody, anybody to know what I'm feeling
Hey buddy. I really appreciate you watching and commenting.
To answer some of your points I didn’t so much think there were no other groups of people than the 3 I mentioned, just that generally most people fell into those 3 groups. The folks coming from Warhammer video games like Total War etc may well be bigger than I imagined.
You’re 100% right that there’s no reason why WFB and AOS couldn’t have existed side by side but wether you, I or anyone else likes it sadly the choice wasn’t ours to make - it was ultimately GW’s. I don’t have the numbers but rumours were that GW sold more Space Marines (not total 40K - just Marines) than the entire fantasy range. It’s capitalism totally however as a business sometime shareholders force decisions and not customers sadly.
I hope with time you find a way to cope with the loss of the game (you’re not alone in how you feel by the way) and I hope you can enjoy your hobby again 👍🏼
Given that AoS novels outsell fantasy's on an individual basis? Yes, yes it was a smart choice. And yes, yes they kind of need to be enemies in that they compete shelf-space. They didn't can WHFB because they wanted to make AOS. They made AOS because they had to can WHFB and they needed to salvage the segments of the range that performed best in terms of product cycling.
As long as I can use my "fantasy" models in the "age of sigmar" rules I'm good. Which is perfectly possible. Just don't bitch about my square bases. It's old skool man!
All the lore is just fluff. In the end it's about painting or gaming. At least it is for me.
Fantasy was way better
My Problem with AoS is that the whole setting feels like a hollywood superhero movie.
You just have big strong models.
All of them are strong, huge, gods can teleport.
It really fells like it was made for kids.
The books are way to colourfull and the story is written lame
That makes the game feel fake for me.
Its like fake tits on women
I want to feel the pain and the struggle of mankind trying to survive against the endless hordes of chaos
Since AoS i quite the hobby
The only thing that I liked so far from GW is Shadespire
I can’t comment on Fantasy as like I said I never played it. I enjoy AOS and the setting now - I didn’t at first. You can’t compare the games however as they’re just too different.
I agree with a lot of this... I do actually like AOS though but a lot of your thoughts are spot on!
You can compare them as individual games but they’re too different to say AOS is the next version of Fantasy. That’s what I meant.
Yeah that was what I meant also
i think its really weird how they changed all the faction names except for the skaven. like just call dwarfs, dwarfs not duruiden? and they call the empire the free folk? i wanted to start a dwarven army but now that can never happen.
I think this was something to do with trademarking names. Dwarves, Elves, Orcs etc are generic and GW couldn’t claim the names however Skaven (I believe) is a GW name.
The console analogy I disagree with. It's not like they left the fantasy lore on a cliff hanger that fans can then decide for themselves what happens to the universe, they up and killed it. A better analogy would be like Microsoft saying "we understand that you can keep playing your Xbox 360 consoles, but we want to focus on Xbox One, so we're shutting down xbox live services completely on your Xbox 360 and wipe your gamerscore because now it doesnt matter." People want to immerse themselves in a LIVING fantasy world, not just relive the glory days and thinking "man I wasn't having to make believe that these armies would be fighting since the entire world blew up."
I get that actually and maybe not being as bought into the fantasy lore as a large chunk of people I'm maybe a little ignorant of what killing off the Old World really meant. I was referring to the fact that the game is still playable. If you have the stuff (books minis etc) then the game didn't die - it just stopped being supported but I do totally see your point of view. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Why would people compare a game that’s less than three years old that replaced a beloved 30 year game and is also fantasy based...? Why da think. Are you daft in the head? or just stretching out bad clickbait content?
Dark Elf warhammer fantasy player here. Never went into AOS, I just loved the unit movement tactics and ruleset too much.
The 2 can definitely live side by side... And they are still linked lore-wise too. The new books make references to the world that was quite often. AoS will need more time to flesh out the lore, especially since they are just adding onto it and expanding the events as they go. It feels a lot less rich, but also a lot less stale than the WHFB lore.
Was it right to blow up the old world? GW is putting up half year financial results that would have been full year financials 3 years ago... Unless there's some MASSIVE upkick of 40k sales for no real reason, it seems the switch from WHFB to AoS was a massive success for the company and the people who started with it seem to be enjoying it a lot (I'm in quite a few FB groups for AoS and there's constant questions floating in from new players who aren't 12 year olds btw... ;) )
AoS players who tell others that they shouldn't like the old WHFB world are disgusting however, but the same applies in reverse though...
Hey Walter - I agree with every single thing you said.
It’s GW’s business and they took a huge risk which appears to have paid off. The new lore is coming along great but will take time to get the volume that the old world had.
AOS brought me into GW games as I found Fantasy and old 40K just too complicated as a new player to get into.
Thanks for watching and commenting 👍🏼
I think WHFB was solely for the "serious" gamer. Whereas AoS was initially aimed at the more casual gamer like me. However GW have added so many more layers to it that even the neckbeards can get something from it. I once mentioned AoS on the Mordheim Facebook group-you should have seen the stick I took!
Unfortunately that’s the stigma that AOS has got. It’s not a dumbed down game and it’s really very tactical.
Glad you’re enjoying it buddy 👍🏼
I feel the reason people bash Age of Sigmar, is the same reason people SHOULD have bashed Blood Bowl/etc. It's like running multiple Call of Duty game servers at the same time, and trying to update each (inconsistently). By having Hobbit, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, 40k, Fantasy, Quest... the list goes on and on... You're just spreading the playerbase thin. There's only so many tables at a Workshop store, so many people that will come, and it makes it difficult to enjoy. Topped off with the inconsistent updates to armies (How on earth they think they can go to a new edition without updating ALL the books at the SAME TIME is beyond me), along with the abrupt end of Warhammer Fantasy in favor of a reboot (Sigmar), aaaand the recent and very successful releases of video games that made Fantasy all the more popular... you're just left with a Blood Bowl of Poop.
I think, honestly, people should continue to snub their nose at Age of Sigmar. It wasn't released by another company, it IS a reboot/replacement of Fantasy, and it IS splitting the dwindling player-base all the more. Maybe if they had been more loose with their licensing, Blizzard would've made World of Warhammer and we'd all be playing Fantasy today, but instead all we get pointed to is a dead game by the fantastic Total War, Vermintide, and Mordheim games. It's just sad.
Hey there, first off thanks for watching and commenting with your viewpoint.
There’s no denying from anyone, wether you despise what GW did to Fantasy or if your a huge AOS player that GW majorly messed up the transition between games. I think their launch of 8th edition 40K showed they can do it better and reboot a franchise without killing it off.
I’d also agree there was life left in Fantasy and the success of the digital games you mentioned show that.
That said AOS has over time developed into a decent game (by no means perfect or a replacement for WFB) and looks to be successful in what GW wanted in bringing new players into Fantasy.
My main point in this video was really that just because you don’t like (hate even) one game you shouldn’t need to go to a group where there are fans of that game and bash it. That goes both ways in this instance of WFB and AOS.
The more I understand the WFB side from comments like yours I can see just how bad it was and what a hole GW created for fans but I still stand by my point that you don’t have to publicly hate one thing to make something else better.
I used to always play Fantasey, it was a challenge to master more so then 40k. I've yet to play AOS. What I don't like is that They've removed old armies & stopped producing minis for them. Now if GW some how bring back say bretonnian and bring out all new models then I can over luck my current opinion. I've not had chance to play AOS so I can't make a comment on the game play
There’s still warscrolls you can use for your old armies in AOS even if they’re not fully supported. They seem to have gotten rid of armies that either didn’t sell so well or were a little generic and difficult to trademark. I think it’s a great game. It’s simple to get started but more complex as you get into it. It’s worth a try anyway.
BlackJack Legacy yeah man I get that. I don't know the exact figures but surely just because they can't copy right Wood Elf, High Elf or Bretonnians surely they should keep them around. Or unless their master plan is to create that supply and demand ie no supply and now high demand resulting in massive sales when the rerelease them
High Elves are about to make a reappearance soon with a few tweaks I think and theres always talk of Bretonnians coming back under Free Peoples. I think they're just trying to flesh out the backstories for them and make them less Generic Fantasy but I think we'll see them come back in one for or another.
BlackJack Legacy yeah mate i wasn't aware about High Elves just thought it was Dark Elves haha. I give them props for the current story.
Theres some great stuff coming out lore wise at the moment and its getting a little darker too. I like it.
Maybe if Age of Sigmar didn't have the vast majority of its units and characters directly lifted from Warhammer Fantasy, with horrendous narrative explanation for it... Maybe then the comparisons would stop.
Yeah maybe - I guess we'll see what happens when Old World comes.
I just played Warhammer Fantasy once time and it was so hard for me; Age of Sigmar is easy to learn for me and is faster. I like it. Btw, I love see some battles about Warhammer Fantasy. It looks very nice with big pretty armies
I've never played Warhammer Fantasy for the same reasons as you but I do like Kings of War which has the same big army feel and look without the confusing rules.
Good video. Well explained
Thanks! Appreciate you watching and commenting Peter.
I think a better analogy would be Gamecube players crossing over to the Nintendo Wii. You need to essentially relearn how you play video games And embrace the gimmick of future Nintendo consoles to enjoy IP from your beloved franchises now.
Meanwhile PlayStation (40k) gets the PS3, PS4 etc with no drastic change to the format.
Yeah that's fair. You see what I was trying to illustrate though.
Great vid mate... for me personally they initially launched Aos incorrectly, no matched play, rules where if you wear a hoody your general can do certain abilities etc, they have corrected those mistakes now and since the Generals Handbook it is a much much better game that I really enjoy. I do think it’s a shame they destroyed the world. But there is nothing stopping people playing the Aos rulesets and armies in the Old World setting 👍🏻
Thanks fella. Couldn't agree more. The Generals Handbook rescued it just in time I think. Its a shame they killed off the lore with the game (or essentially did) but its done now and the new stuff is shaping up rather well.
I played warhammer from 1st edition. I played and bought it all for decades. It was a large chunk of my childhood. Games come and go but they destroyed the 'world' . Gw had people spend a fortune on models and books for a campaign that ended the system and made all they had bought useless. It was the lack of respect for customers and no regard for what it meant to ppl that meant I didn't even want to look at AoS. I want battles. KOW fills that now. It's not the game AoS it's GW itself I want nothing to do with.
That’s really interesting as it’s a great point about getting people to invest in the End Times campaign without explaining that the game was going. Glad you enjoy KOW now - I think it’s a great game.
My only rebuttal comment I'd say is that the issue for Fantasy players is that essentially it's a dying crowd, with little new incomers because it's no longer a supported system/license. And lots of clubs/groups don't do Fantasy (or indeed AoS), purely based on space/interest (40K tends to still be more popular), based of course purely on personal experience. /shrug personally I'll always say that Fantasy just felt more fun and immersive to me than AoS, but I've also been playing GW games since I was 6 or 7 in 2001 so some bias there I think.
Hey Thomas, I agree that we all have a little bias in us. I've not been playing as long, never played fantasy and my group are big AOS players. If I'd come from your group and had been playing as long I'm sure I'd feel different.
I'm sure it is a declining crowd but by the way GW ended the game I'd assume it was already a declining crowd just not to the extent it is now.
Age of Sigmar is a nice game. Old fantasy is much much much much better. In fact you have a full list of computer games, books, roleplaying games in addition to the battletop game. It is so much deep, more rich more entertaining than AoS.
All Warhammer is equal - to think otherwise is a kind of racism, because inevitably the discussion slides into "Age of Sigmar / 40k fans are not people, unlike the true Aryans fb-fans."
@@Basil_Ghothickovitch LOL, what?
Enjoyed the chat, you make many good points. I used to play WFB, just purchased 5 ed. at the time and the group stopped gaming. (life got in the way, it happens). I have never played AoS, although I have been watching Batt Reps. and have been thinking about picking up the rules. Thank you for sharing. ~ Will
No worries Will - thanks for watching and taking the time to comment. I like AOS but then never played Fantasy to compare it. I would say it’s worth a demo somewhere as it’s much more accessible as a new play in my opinion.
The 9th Age Fantasy Battles. It’s a rule set for actual gamers instead of the jumbled mess that are GW games which are unbalanced, confused on purpose and unwieldy (to sell more supplements). GW games are more like a pay to win cellphone game. GW made the choice to be a different company which is fine but no need to fool oneself.
I'm neither for or against GW. I enjoy Warcry for its simple fast gameplay but no longer a fan of AoS personally.
This video is laughable. There's little tactical acumen in AoS. If you're going to play a skirmish game why not play Malifaux, or Warmahordes? Fiat and a Porsche comparison when it comes to balance, and tactics.
Thanks for watching and commenting. AOS technically isn’t a skirmish game so comparisons with Malifaux and Warmahordes aren’t really a fair comparison. As I said in the video I’ve not played WFB so I’m not saying which is the better game - what I’m saying is you don’t need to bash one game to say another is better. I appreciate you taking the time to comment however.
I actually think AOS may be compared to WarmaHordes in a way: it's smaller scale compared to WHF (while WH is becoming larger scale with time), also in AOS squads can attack different targets and so on... naturally they are not the same (at GW they only can wish they were!) but AOS is definitely closer to WH than to WHF as what really makes a difference is characters more than troops... I mean u don't really think big blocks of troops in AOS unless u use dunno goblins maybe...
Good video. My thoughts are, for one thing, most of the players who have played WF have more invested than a person who never got on that scene and got into AOS. I prefer the WF because the factions are more interesting and you have to find that right balance to be successful. I still do try to get into AOS, but it’s too much like 40k. I’m glad they announced the return of the old war, though it’ll be some time before it hits the shelves and different rules I’m sure. I think they just should’ve kept them both cause a lot of people are still wanting the WF minis.
I got back into fantasy as it was dying. I got lucky and scooped up a lot of armies people were offloading as well as a bunch of out of print rulebooks. So basically I've been experimenting with older rule sets all the way from 4th/5th herohammer era to 8th edition. Been a good time, made some new friends. So at least that's been a positive. I only lament not being able to purchase certain models no longer supported.
Woe betide he who wants to play bretonnia or tomb kings.
3 words. Kings Of War.
I guess as good as KOW is theres plenty of ex Fantasy players who'd rather stay with the old rules.
One simple big problem with the argument ” You can keep playing the old game.”
The cool models for the old factions are being removed. If I want to buy Tomb Kings, shit out of luck unlike Stormcast Eternals, GW is in that way hindering playing the old game (I think it’s intentional since their sales of old models have been fine and spiked during End Times and Last Chance periods)
So no, it is not the same to play an unsupported game, in video games analogy it would be like having game mechanics or factions removed from the game while playing.
Some argue as a counter: Then use models from other companies.
Simple answer to that, why don’t you do that for AoS? Because the sculpts are better than most companies, the original models are better representation just to name a fem reasons why it sucks not to have GW minis. Also mishmash other models with our own GW models looks bad in many cases.
When I say keep playing the game I mean with the stuff you have. The analogy to the Video game still stands that theres no extra content, theres no support for patches etc however you can technically still play it. I know GW are removing the older models but that just shows the market is shrinking for them to the point its uneconomical to keep them in production.
I do appreciate that the game was essentially ripped out from underneath you however without intending to sound harsh what else is there to do? You can play it or you can leave it. Thats all I'm really trying to get at. GW can stop supporting the game but they cant stop you playing what you love.
I think they should have kept the world and changed the rules.
I know it was a DnD looking grounded in reality fantasy land. I know they wanted to go more crazy and creative and high fantasy with it. Have models who look insane. Also fantasy was bleeding out due to bad rules in 8e and horrible army books with 0 balance. And lack of support for all the 6e factions.
But I still like 6e.
Cant wait for me panda warrior riding a vulpera
A lot of the comments state about WHFB lore being definitively better, but that really is just a matter of opinion. I mean, I liked the setting and the lore well enough but there wasn't really anything special about it. It just kind of felt stale and generic to me... arguing which story is better is purely subjective and there is no "definitive better" answer that will settle any argument. I don't think that the direction that AOS lore is going is going is necessarily better or worse, but it is different and the the storyline needed a change IMO. As for the game itself, it was very apparent that WHFB needed to be changed as well as it wasn't profitable for the company to keep it going as it was. I might have done things differently (such as not squatting armies) but can appreciate that they did something when it was needed. Its hard to argue with the financial results.
How dare you be reasonable and balanced in your opinion! haha.I completly agree. Whats a literary masterpice to one person is firewood to another. There is no fact on which is better - only opinion. You're also bang on about the financial results. In business the good and bad decisions are decided on the balance sheet!Thanks for watching and commenting.
AOS biggest flaw is they use Warhammer’s name with having very little in relation. One is low fantasy the other is a Saturday cartoon high fantasy. If it were it’s own thing with totally new heros Im fairly sure it would be less hated. If I wanted to play AOS I’d just play melee only 40K.
Also, funny enough, the Old World fans held on so tight GW is bringing it back…maybe…eventually. Who knows when but still.
I played WHFB since 3rd edition, but stopped with AOS; I don't like the new setting, and needed to spend my money on other things (motorbikes!). I do continue with WFRP 1st Ed - the best game made by GW!
I think you are totally wrong as to why people are upset. Age fo Sigmar cherrypicked aspects of the lore while killing off not just a specific game, but in many ways, tattering a community.
There are still big tournamentsfor 9th, but the height of 8th edition Warhammer had slightly larger tournaments, constant content in the forms of magazines, podcasts, and battle reports. Also, the competitions were game supported in a lot of places, and that made a huge difference as well. It's not simply "xbox vs. xbox1".
I understand why people are upset about it - I just wonder why after 3 years it’s still an issue. All of the things you mentioned are valid but there’s no sign of it coming back anytime soon. I just feel it’s been long enough to begin to come to terms with the change.
BlackJack Legacy its like the McRib in that way. Its the support that is lacking. AoS seems like a cute fantasy companion to 40k. I also think to be able to talk about this, you should probably play fantasy and try it out. Also, the issues with warhammer fantasy now is that games workshop left it in a trash place where one of the army books was two editions behind, and the rules were not updated or completed for the latest edition. You can say you understand but you need to say at least one thing after that which makes it actually seem like you actually listened.
I did try to get into Fantasy and I found it too difficult an entry point. The rule book was huge, there were rules all over army books and the players didn’t seem to want to help new guys. That’s generalising from my local scene however. I don’t think I need to have played the game to have an opinion that you don’t have to hate on one game to appreciate another however. I have listened to everyone’s opinions both on the Fantasy side and on the AOS side. Just because I don’t agree with everyone doesn’t mean I’m right and they’re wrong however. There’s no wrong opinions when it comes to this only how people feel. The only thing I think we should all agree on is that we shouldn’t put one game down to elevate another.
I definitely agree don't be negative about the other game, but I think people should be able to complain about losing the support for a game that could have been in their lives for 10+ years
I agree with you Pablo that when it’s something that people feel so passionately about then of course they should be able to voice their opinions, frustrations and disappointment but when that’s aired in groups dedicated to the support and enjoyment of another game it can come off as sour grapes a little.
I think one of the issues is that where else do you air your grievances? It’s been a difficult situation not helped by splitting a community.
I only recently discovered the existence of Age of Sigmar. I played both WHF and the WHF Roleplay games while I studied -- and have a great number of books devoted to this world. Reading that the entire world was killed off in order to market Age of Sigmar makes me really sad. Granted, I stopped playing the tabletop and role playing games ages ago (working, moving, etc), but I continued reading the books. This explains why there suddenly were books with Sigmarites and other pretty weird humans. c_c
What I've read thus far of AoS does not impress me overly. Quite frankly it is hard to accept that a company would be stupid enough to ditch 3-4 decades of history building in order to launch a streamlined version of their battle game. There is so much more to the universe than these battles.
AoS fiction has gotten much better but won't scratch the same itch as Fantasy lore. GW have done well financially out of the switch however so I'm sure they're happy about it.
Not played AOS after the betrayal of the loyal fantasy owners then if that wasn't bad enough they replace it with a no points structure wtf was that about and all rules on what was it 1-2 pages? Now look at the prices of the models they are so expensive and some of them are double the cost of old fantasy models so hence they are going to make cash as people really are made to buy the new stuff and you cannot blame GW for this as they need to make cash but its funny how aos has gone back and pinched stuff from Warhammer Fantasy to make it a more popular game. It just feels to me that its more 40k now then it is fantasy because 40k sells because the younger generation just want to kill stuff and not worry about tactics as much and that's fine if people enjoy that. But the hate from a lot of fantasy players is because aos killed it and that is why you still get people venting about it as this is not in the same league of quality in there eyes. Only game I play whats GW is Bloodbowl so I'm not one of these hardcore fantasy players but I can see how they feel cheated. Luckily I stopped playing it a year or so before end of times due to the products getting way overpriced for what they are and ive worked for games workshop I know how cheap they cost to make
Thanks for the great reply Bernie. I can only imagine what state Fantasy was in financials for GW to take this route and kill it off but I agree the initial launch of AOS with no points was a mess. It’s grown a lot since then but I also agree on the costs. It would be interesting to compare the price of a Fantasy army compared to an AOS army. Less models now but same cost or more maybe? Thanks for watching and commenting.
The thing is I think its a different generation thing for instance the old dudes like me love to be a general of a mass huge army and nothing better then seeing them cavalry charges crash into the gun lines of the enemy and seeing all that heraldry flags and all. While the generation of today want a more quick tempo type of game and I feel they don't want to be bogged down by rules and rules they just want to play. So I get that one of my favourite games is zombicide and that is a nice easy game to play but still has a tactical element to it. Look at cricket county cricket is a result over 4 days and not doing well but 20-20 cricket is done in around 3 hours and is now a huge success so GW have gone with the times but they was awful how they went about it they really did. Regardless whatever people like or dislike these loyal fantasy players deserved better then how they was treated by gw
I think you’ve summed it up perfectly. Times have changed and the influx of skirmish games have driven a different mentality in gaming. There will always be big army scale games but they’re becoming the niche rather than the mass market. The way the end was handled was terrible. I think they were lucky to survive it. If it wasn’t for 40K popularity it might have been a different outcome.
Why kill one of the games if they doesn't compete with each other?
I agree. GW obviously thought that Fantasy wasn’t making them enough money and to be honest their profits since it ended suggest they were right. That said what makes money and what fans love can often be two very different things.
As someone who hasn't played either of the games, but was really into the lore of the old world due to some of the video games ever since Warhammer: Age of Reckoning, I just wanna drop my 2 cents, in case this topic is still relevant to you. I can definitely imagine how someone who enjoys playing Age of Sigmar would be annoyed with people always complaining about it and referencing a different game, so I totally understand you from that perspective. I may not like the lore of AoS that much, but I won't go out of my way to ruin other people's enjoyment of it. Another example of this would be, just because I despise the new Star Wars movies doesn't mean I'll go and nag people who enjoy them, and start arguing how the pre-Disney Star Wars movies are better. There's no real point in doing that, and it will just annoy them (not saying AoS is as bad as Disney SW, thankfully).
As many others have already said, GW really handled WHF poorly, which is why we're in this whole situation. Anyways, I hope you continue to enjoy playing and don't let other people's disappointments affect your experience.
Cheers.
Better game system with aos.... But the lore , the setting and new style of armies ie the sigmarines are why I stay away and play with the old armies with the new rule set
Whatever you play as long as you enjoy it that’s cool. That’s the beauty of this hobby. All you need is someone to play against and you can tailor the rules/background/models to suit 👍🏼
Looks like you were wrong BlackJack. The WFB gripers won and we have the rebirth of the Old World
Time will tell ... we're still not sure what exactly it means yet!
AoS may have 100 years to get his shit togeter and fix his lore. But Fantasy will still be better.
I think AOS lore is definitely improving from its beginnings but I've never read the fantasy lore to compare.
Well said mate - People should do what they like and not bag out others fun :)
Thanks Valvetrain! I just never understand people having to put down one game to show how great theres is. Everyone is entitled to play whatever they like.
3:03 that aged well 😂
Let’s see what Old World actually is before we decide “Warhammer Fantasy has come back!” 😉
@@BlackJackLegacy haha indeed.... at the very least it's caused a surge in 9th Age interest locally!
You cut me deep brah!
GW stopped supporting LOTR till the hobbit came out for years but the community stayed strong with focal people.
I feel the same as you but not as strongly against comparing the games as they were both written and supported by gw in the past, while I came from the Lizardmen vs Britonians starter (4th I think!) And enjoy AoS2 as each release and update helps clarify what is a growing system.
Going from a "complete" fantasy system where your armies are balanced and set to a new shiny system which had a few glaring flaws in gameplay and balance wasn't for most and once they started to "codex" creep with each new chamber that is opened forcing some to buy each new release and making your last purchase irrelevant from a game play perspective souring for some people.
I'm a old school dwarf player but still didn't have the full options available but am interested in the new dwarf forces going forward but have still yet to swap my throng over to round bases! 😇
I agree with you mate really. AOS was a car crash when it launched and its a miracle it survived that early mess but I think what I'm trying to say is we shouldn't compare them now. They're 2 very different games and we don't need to put one down in order to say how good the other one is.
@@BlackJackLegacy I don't believe putting either down but to expect AoS2 to aspire to what Warhammer fantasy was as a fleshed out and great written work of fantasy fluff to accompany a great fantasy wargame as a positive sure.
Still plenty more things to come from AoS2 I'm looking forward to but for my forces sadly in the not to near future!
As someone who's played both, AoS has some terrible mechanics. For starters, if I have a handgunner, it will wound both a grot and a keeper of secrets on the same roll. The keeper of secrets is clearly a tougher enemy, but weapons don't seem to care. The wound everyone the same regardless.
Another thing I dislike is that magic has no downside. You have no reason not to try to cast every spell you can, because nothing bad will ever happen. Even 40k magic has the potential to backfire. Why have something as powerful as magic and not have a drawback to using it?
The last thing I'd like to mention is summons. As long as an army that does summons has characters alive, they have the potential to reinforce their army. They get this special summon points from doing well, doing poorly, and some just get it from the turn. I don't think I need to mention how broken it is for you to wipe out a horde of bloodletters only to face another summoned horde, or bamn a surprise KoS has been added to the game.
I will never forget GW for not making a brettonian based army/faction! Other than that the game is good
Does anyone still play Lord of the Rings tabletop anymore lol?
I think it’s had a bit of a resurgence recently with some new stuff available.
old video but see xbox 1 is an upgrade to an xbox 360. it has almost everything the same (except the profile avatars) in general, the xbox 1 is better than the 360. and many xbox 360 games are compatible with the xbox 1 so u can play it just like you had an xbox 360.
Using this example is basically saying Fantasy is not as good as age of sigmar,and that age of sigmar is a newer, better version of fantasy. which is arguably not so depending who you ask.
Xbox 1 is a definite better version of the xbox360 no questions asked
This video hasn’t aged well with that backwards compatibility statement about consoles
Nice chat, having not played Fantasy I have really compared it, but from what I have seem AoS seems pretty good and have some awesome models
Thanks Nick. Like it or loathe it the minis are great in the main part. I enjoy the game but I can see why others are annoyed at the end of Fantasy however.
tbh, it's mostly Games Workshops fault, that people hate on AoS so much. If it was a spinoff (like it is), few people would have a problem with it. But the fact that the old format was killed and replaced leaves old fans rather bitter. Understandably so. Like, the comparison is unavoidable, since AOS is literally the successor to WFB now. Your old game is dead, this is the new game now. You don't like it? Too bad, because you can't buy it anymore. Good luck looking for it on ebay.
That's not quite fair to AoS as a game, but GW handled the entire situation so incredible badly, it's really, really no suprise. Even 5 years later, people are still bitter.
I feel utter betrayed by launching Aos. In the fantasy game every faction had they own story and motives. But in Aos everything Lorewise became extremely human-centric which the other fantasy races are nearly irrelevant.
Who wants humans to be the lead race in a fantasy universe? How incredibly boring.
Hi Remi, I’d agree that when AOS launches the background was poor and nowhere near as rich and deep as WFB however I would say that with a few years under its belt it’s much better, less human centric and has a story arc. WFB still has a lot more background because of how long it was around however it’s worth giving the new stuff for AOS a try as it’s really moved on and improved. Thanks for watching and commenting.