another method for deep safes is incursions. not as convenient of course, but whenever you're traveling through an incursion area, utilize it to make some safes - who knows when you'll need em ;)
I'd argue that Incursion safes are ultra convenient. Just more of a passive thing. Almost included them in here, but felt like a red herring with the j-space focus, but I probably should have mentioned it. Thanks.
found this video from RUclipss random recommendations. Now im watching all of your nomad series ;D It reminds me of when I had time to play and lived in WH space, my favorite part of EvE. Keep up the good work!
Glad to see you return to this topic. If we compare this to eve official posts from 2010, strange safes are indeed in the clear. One could also argue that a part of the beauty of eve is knowledge about these esoteric interactions. Be they mechanical or economical, reading the tea leaves and getting a leg up has been a part of this game for a long time. When we consider that the "fix" for the old deep safes was simply moving safes gotten from exploits into the radius, instead of deleting them, players were effectively rewarded for exploiting early. People with extreme out of system safes were rewarded with in system strange safes, and these were unobtainable for what, 8 years until the abyssals came out? At least with people like you speaking about this openly, newer or returning players can learn about this, and that is very cool of you! Thanks.
That's awesome. I thought you just commented on my stuff to be a good dude, I didn't know you actually were out here watching stuff. Lines, poly, it's our system now, comrade o7
Tehehe damn I was hoping the folder would have a bunch in empire space I could potentially use for completely innocent community friendly purposes and definitely (definitely) not a cloaky ambush
I intend to extend it to empire! I'm actually still desperately seeking some help for this project so I may roll out new safes slower than anticipated.
Tip for everyone, if you are running like lvl 4 missions, and the warp to point is wayyyyyyy up or wayyyyyyy down, a long warp to, save the mission site as a Safe. I actually save both in all systems I run mission in. Makes it easy to warp back and forth to while running a set of Abyssals.
I’ve got plenty of deepsafes from missions. I imagine if I’m doing it plenty of other people are too and it’ll only be a matter of time before someone sees my trace and I get jumped coming out of the abyss. Nonetheless, given how focused the build on a high tier abyssal ship needs to be, it only seems fair that I’m able to find and create a spot to use it in relative safety. The mechanics in hisec are already skewed heavily in favour of gankers (imagine known murdering thieves being tolerated sitting outside your local mall irl), removing deepsafes would just be open season on abyss runners.
@@michaelkane6797exactly, you get seen coming and going from a station in a gila, have your fit scanned on the undock and trace combat probed. Having the trace on dscan is just an invitation. Tbh this vid coming from someone who abuses dt for every move op is a bit rich really.
It is a fun to see that your video received so many comments in such a short time. Good job! There is and always will be a discussion where is the fine line between the exploit and the clever use of game mechanics. Especially in a sandbox game like this, where the clever use of game mechanics is encouraged. Adepts of any means necessary would say that the entire concept of rules is useless, because rules is the situation where you haven't yet found a way to cheat, and an exploit is what lesser minds call the tactics. Still, I think there should be the line. Infinite gun of AHARM was an obvious example, just like the shenanigans with abused (or abyssal) sieges on dreads and titans. But there are more that lay in that grey area you mentioned. Combat refit was fixed when the time came. The cloaky eyes with covert cyno in k-space were fixed after more than a decade of whines. Offgrid links were fixed, and it stirred a lot of discontent among the players. Firewall, disco and pipebombing were never fixed, and never even intended to. Quite nice for a setup that renders all subcapital missiles and flying drones doctrines useless. When I was in Chiffas, it was the peak of 'nighthawk/drake navy supremacy' and it was kind of funny to see enemies trying to break our Leshaks. Even though there are fleetcoms that know how does it work, still it is kind of difficult to counter the firewall, especially if your opponent has smartbombs on every ship. Among the others, I don't think deepsafes are too much game breaking. They have their own tradeoffs, like inability to switch the ship or clone, which you have on a citadel or on a mere POS. And I read everyday whine on Reddit about how Pochven is broken even though people don't know even a half of the true extent of its brokenness, and these exploits exist from 2019 and nobody is going to fix them, still people prefer to do nothing and whine like crybabies. (I have my bug report submitted in 2020, and passed over to CCP with the assistance of CSM member, and it is not fixed as far as I know to this day). I remember the peak goonswarm war on exploits when they received 4294967295 loyalty points in FW before the counter gets broken. CCP gives a shit only when you DO exploit the things to the point where it become game-changing. And with the scale of quintillions of ISk and trillions of destruction yearly, it is not a big problem for CCP yet.
Chloroken my dude, what are you doing? We need magic like this. As SP builds even when offline the true measure of EVE experience is the knowledge of little tricks like these. The way you revealed it that previous video was perfect. I'm all for CCP embracing deep safes in a way that's more fair, but you know as well as I that they're lazy and prefer to remove opportunities rather than build upon them. Maybe if they added some kind of "gas clouds" or "debris fields" as celestials with a built-in scan inhib within a million km but anchoring structures or deployables is prohibited; add a couple per system and make their grids big; maybe that would work, but they're more likely just going to break a mechanic folks have come to rely upon. I hope this gamble pays, but I'm worried we're all gonna lose for it.
This is just a silly little essay. Don't worry, I'm literally a nobody. But I would love some more (intentional) mechanics that play with these topics! Far-out belts sound sweeeet.
Nice update to the original discussion! I'm not sure I agree that these should be banned, but I can certainly appreciate leveling the playing field. I use them in LS for (Ahem..) activities, sharing knowledge of their existence and creation doesn't make them less useful. I've taken to calling them Strange Safes, even have a corp shared folder of our own. One question though.. are they still possible to make in K-space? I haven't made any new ones in a while, and when I tried the week leading up to the Crimson Harvest all I seem to get are poly safes.
Hi, I respect the argument. They can still be made in kspace. But filaments can't be ripped in th highest security systems anymore, so you'd have to use another method. Hope you're well buddy.
I think the only way abyssal runners would be safe from gankers would be to amass a big group, half would run abyssals while the other half guards the system. Strange safes ward off only the lazy gankers.
Made plenty of these back in 2015 when I used to play… the easier one is to jump to a mission zone and set a bookmark. Finish the mission and then start building offshoots from that point. If you can get multiple mission zones you can really make some great “true strange” spots because you can jump between those bookmarks and then jump to planets or other edge system marks. It’s very easy to make any of these. In reality the only thing that makes it an exploit is that people don’t think to scan in those directions. That’s not an exploit if you’re too stupid to think “hey maybe if I want to find this guy I should search outside the system zone.” The exploit is using those safe spots and then having so much dampening that you can’t be see unless you’re within. A few feet of the target. If they truly want to end true strange, they need to get rid of dampening from system scanners. Then it won’t matter what safe spot you have because you won’t be safe at all on a wide enough scan. Not saying get rid of it entirely, but cap it. You should be able to hide from normal and even advanced scanners but it’s the “full cloak” and “fully hidden” dampeners that make true safe spots an exploit.
No ship in the game is unscannable. Not entirely sure what you meant. And I don't think that mission beacons are relevant to this conversation because this mostly has to do with jspace. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I've used to do these abyssal deep safes but I think that about a month or two ago they patched that and it's not possible to make them anymore. Since then I've tried multiple times to create one and even though I've managed to be exiting an abyssal and in warp when downtime hit, I wasn't able to do it.
Hey, so I think you may be doing it wrong. You simply need to be inside the abyssal area when downtime hits. The exact procedure is wait until 30 seconds remain, use a filament, enter, and then wait patiently until you get kicked off. Don't move. Try that one and let me know if it works.
@@chloroken Ah yes, this one is gonna give you safe spot but I'm talking about the deep safes, like 200AU. To get them you needed to enter the gate and have the server shut down while you are still in warp. I can't make them anymore so either I'm very unlucky or the exploit got patched.
@@chloroken yeah but when was the last time you tried to pull it off? I have been trying to do it in the last month and I just cant. Server closes when I'm in warp and upon logging in I'm sitting in the same spot I was before to enter the abyssal. 2 months ago I was able to make 3 deep safes without an issue, it was only hard to get the timing right. That's why I think it was patched just recently. Or perhaps I'm just extremely unlucky.
If these techniques ever become an exploit please come back and update this video. I would hate someone watching this in a year or 10 get banned following this.
You make a good point. No, I don't think flying to strange safe spots would be grey area or an exploit. It's the glitch with filaments that makes it too easy to where some folk like me have 100s of these things, while others have none. Just my opinion.
Even with a 10km/s frigate it would take months or even years of ininterrupted flying to reach a position far enough to be considered a true strange safe
I don't think making a script to detect true stranges would be too difficult. It's not easy but not too hard. And it shouldn't be something too taxing to do in terms of computing power
@@chloroken I might write up something later but I think what you want to do is have a collection of points (ie planets) which you can warp to and another set of points which are the bookmarks. There are 2 steps in figuring out which bookmarks are true stranges: 1: do a convex hull algoritham on the points that represent planets. This algorithm draws the smallest possible convex polygon arround a set of points which encompasses all of them (this would be the shape you were refering to). 2: Do a sweep line algorithm to determine which bookmarks are in the polygon. We know we can do this because we have the outer edges of the polygon from the convex hull algorithm. And just delete the ones that aren't in the designated polygon. You could even tkae this a step further and do the convec hull for all systems only once and save the data for the equations of the outer lines of the polygon. This shouldnt be too much memory as you wold only have like a few numbers per line, and some lines per system. Which would cut down on computation. Also you just need to run sweep line once for every bookmark and then you could run it every time some1 wants to create a bookmark. Hope i explaned it somewhat, as for the algorithms used convex hull is fairly popular and well documented, and the sweep line(2d) algorithm is more of a method of keeping dynamic intervals
well they could just nuke anything outside of scan range and people can recover/prepare for it incase some "legit" bms will get nuked But yeah, eve is such an archeology of a game that there are many non intiutive things that need to be known to take advantage of and give quite a big one Id class many of the old content stuff thats good ISK/h or gives good loot like that, R&D agents for example and many others
Yeah the idea of legit bookmarks getting removed is terrifying. I don't anticipate any action being taken against strange safes though. I just was discussing my opinions. ^^
The algorithm for checking to see if a point is within the polygon is not very hard at all. It's a few more multiplies than a radius check, but used all the time in games. The reason they won't touch it is because they live in fear of the structure code and don't want to tempt that house of cards. Remember a bit ago when a random change caused the gate noise to persist everywhere? It's spaghetti all the way down.
I think there would need to be a few more checks in the algo. Remember a true strange isn't just far from celestials, it's far from the theoretical edge of the system too. That extends beyond simple radius checks because we are no longer dealing with circles. Is the proper algorithm easy to make? Probably. Will they do it? Hell no, for the exact reasons you stated. And that's probably for the best. :)
@@chloroken Super easy, barely an inconvenience. A ray from the strange through the polygon intersects an even number of times, if outside. I wish I get in the code and fix things, sometimes...
I recognise that abyssal safes are unfair to anyone that can't login right before downtime, but declaring them exploits would be a complete nail in the coffin for the majority of abyssal runners. The nature of abyssals generally means that if someone finds your abyssal trace, you're dead. The _only_ reasonable defence you have is not being found in the first place (doubly so if you're in highsec) and abyssal safes are one of if not the only ways to reasonably do that. Removing them would be like asking the people running halloween sites to run them without dscan, without local and force them to exit from the gate they entered from. There'd be riots at how terrible of an idea that is.
I respectfully disagree. Removing the ability to generate and use strange safes would negatively impact my own playstyle significantly more than abyssal runners. Yet, I still think it'd be the right thing to do, because the esoteric nature of the mechanics lend themselves to exclusivity and pockets of knowledge that create what amounts to classes.
@@chloroken I don't see a problem with pockets of knowledge tbh. Imo they're a sign of a good sandbox. Cloaky MWD, drag bubbles and smartbombing people mid warp for example. Nowadays they're common knowledge, but in the past they were obscure uses of tools that gave people with knowledge of them an advantage and so were kept hush. I don't think any of those should've been declared exploits though. The only reason abyssal safes aren't as well known as the cloaky MWD is because it's still relatively new and tbh there's just less people documenting the game nowadays. So I wouldn't go as far as calling it esoteric, but like I said I do recognize that it can be considered unfair to people in certain timezones in a similar sense that multiboxing can be considered unfair to people from poorer backgrounds/regions.
Hey, fair enough. I don't think you're necessarily wrong about anything you just said that time. I think there is a difference between module tricks and abyssal + downtime interaction, though. Whether that difference means anything is up for debate. Thanks for sharing your views.
@@chloroken Oh for sure, there's definitely a valid argument for them not being 1:1 comparisons. I guess in that sense it becomes a question of where someone personally draws the line between unintended mechanic and exploit.
It feels like an unfair advantage to me. That's why I'm organizing to make them more accessible. If CCP decided to call them all exploits, it would save me a lot of time and effort. x)
@@chloroken Tunneling was never grey. As soon as you published it - hoping you wouldn’t get reprimanded by CCP for demonstrating it. They made a very public declaration about it. They also have something similar in place to deal with structures being placed outside of the solar system bounds. Deep safes; are not that - and hardly unfair. They are on par with all the log-off Alphas you and others sit inside of WH’s for permanent access…. Inside targets … c13’s …. Shattereds … etc…
I reported Tunneling 10 months before that video. It was ignored by the devs. It was grey that entire time. I also knew I wouldn't get reprimanded, because I did nothing wrong. The "similar something" in place is an exploit rule that states citadels can't be 10AU outside of the normal locations. It has nothing to do with anything I've talked about in this video. My mission with this video is to level the playing field, help out the exploration community, and share my knowledge. I only mentioned the idea of them being labeled as an exploit because it's always an option CCP reserves. You have a lot of misconceptions about these exploits and my motives as a player. You should ask more questions. I'm happy to explain myself to those that actually want to know. Edit: Also, for what it's worth, I think seeds should be nerfed too. :)
Search "Jolly Ranchers" in game for access to the bookmark folder with my strange safes. Thanks for watching.
Encouraging others to use other's safe spots... :D 200IQ :D
another method for deep safes is incursions. not as convenient of course, but whenever you're traveling through an incursion area, utilize it to make some safes - who knows when you'll need em ;)
I'd argue that Incursion safes are ultra convenient. Just more of a passive thing. Almost included them in here, but felt like a red herring with the j-space focus, but I probably should have mentioned it. Thanks.
This is what i came to say. I've never had anything deeper than an incursion bookmark.
I think people have thrown Astrahus's deep in some of those safe spots.
@@jaykay5838 We had a reactor that was 120 AU away from the only gate in system😅 always a pleasure to warp there 😊
found this video from RUclipss random recommendations. Now im watching all of your nomad series ;D It reminds me of when I had time to play and lived in WH space, my favorite part of EvE. Keep up the good work!
That's sweet. Thanks RUclips. I hope you enjoy the series!
Glad to see you return to this topic.
If we compare this to eve official posts from 2010, strange safes are indeed in the clear. One could also argue that a part of the beauty of eve is knowledge about these esoteric interactions. Be they mechanical or economical, reading the tea leaves and getting a leg up has been a part of this game for a long time.
When we consider that the "fix" for the old deep safes was simply moving safes gotten from exploits into the radius, instead of deleting them, players were effectively rewarded for exploiting early. People with extreme out of system safes were rewarded with in system strange safes, and these were unobtainable for what, 8 years until the abyssals came out?
At least with people like you speaking about this openly, newer or returning players can learn about this, and that is very cool of you! Thanks.
Thanks for the insight. This is the kind of reaction I was hoping for - a reasonably nuanced take with some historical analysis. Appreciated.
BTW, you have changed how I name my safe points. I now call them 'line' or 'poly' safe.
always more to learn in EVE ONLINE dude 👏👏👏
That's awesome. I thought you just commented on my stuff to be a good dude, I didn't know you actually were out here watching stuff. Lines, poly, it's our system now, comrade o7
I love this
I love you
Literally just watched episode 10! Thanks for a great series BTW - hope it's still ongoing.
What impeccable timing! It's still going. x)
incredible topic, incredible editing, incredible visuals, incredible narration.
You're incredibler.
Tehehe damn I was hoping the folder would have a bunch in empire space I could potentially use for completely innocent community friendly purposes and definitely (definitely) not a cloaky ambush
I intend to extend it to empire! I'm actually still desperately seeking some help for this project so I may roll out new safes slower than anticipated.
Tip for everyone, if you are running like lvl 4 missions, and the warp to point is wayyyyyyy up or wayyyyyyy down, a long warp to, save the mission site as a Safe. I actually save both in all systems I run mission in. Makes it easy to warp back and forth to while running a set of Abyssals.
I’ve got plenty of deepsafes from missions. I imagine if I’m doing it plenty of other people are too and it’ll only be a matter of time before someone sees my trace and I get jumped coming out of the abyss. Nonetheless, given how focused the build on a high tier abyssal ship needs to be, it only seems fair that I’m able to find and create a spot to use it in relative safety. The mechanics in hisec are already skewed heavily in favour of gankers (imagine known murdering thieves being tolerated sitting outside your local mall irl), removing deepsafes would just be open season on abyss runners.
How do abyssal runners taste?
Being out of range of a standard D-scan doesn't mean you can't be found. Just sayin'...
@@chloroken We're chewy and a bit dry, but packed with vitamins.
*Gordon Ramsey voice* Delicious~
@@michaelkane6797exactly, you get seen coming and going from a station in a gila, have your fit scanned on the undock and trace combat probed. Having the trace on dscan is just an invitation.
Tbh this vid coming from someone who abuses dt for every move op is a bit rich really.
Great video, i will give the folder a go and a try out
Many thanks
Good luck!
Keep it up, great stuff!
Thank you, Esco!
It is a fun to see that your video received so many comments in such a short time. Good job!
There is and always will be a discussion where is the fine line between the exploit and the clever use of game mechanics. Especially in a sandbox game like this, where the clever use of game mechanics is encouraged.
Adepts of any means necessary would say that the entire concept of rules is useless, because rules is the situation where you haven't yet found a way to cheat, and an exploit is what lesser minds call the tactics.
Still, I think there should be the line. Infinite gun of AHARM was an obvious example, just like the shenanigans with abused (or abyssal) sieges on dreads and titans. But there are more that lay in that grey area you mentioned.
Combat refit was fixed when the time came. The cloaky eyes with covert cyno in k-space were fixed after more than a decade of whines. Offgrid links were fixed, and it stirred a lot of discontent among the players.
Firewall, disco and pipebombing were never fixed, and never even intended to. Quite nice for a setup that renders all subcapital missiles and flying drones doctrines useless. When I was in Chiffas, it was the peak of 'nighthawk/drake navy supremacy' and it was kind of funny to see enemies trying to break our Leshaks. Even though there are fleetcoms that know how does it work, still it is kind of difficult to counter the firewall, especially if your opponent has smartbombs on every ship.
Among the others, I don't think deepsafes are too much game breaking. They have their own tradeoffs, like inability to switch the ship or clone, which you have on a citadel or on a mere POS.
And I read everyday whine on Reddit about how Pochven is broken even though people don't know even a half of the true extent of its brokenness, and these exploits exist from 2019 and nobody is going to fix them, still people prefer to do nothing and whine like crybabies. (I have my bug report submitted in 2020, and passed over to CCP with the assistance of CSM member, and it is not fixed as far as I know to this day).
I remember the peak goonswarm war on exploits when they received 4294967295 loyalty points in FW before the counter gets broken. CCP gives a shit only when you DO exploit the things to the point where it become game-changing. And with the scale of quintillions of ISk and trillions of destruction yearly, it is not a big problem for CCP yet.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I think you have a reasonably well-adjusted take on these topics.
What most people call a safe spot is the merely starting point for making a safe spot.
This is... a deep thought.
Just glad none of those deeps are in my system (yet) xD
Soon(tm)
Amazing videos
Thanks. You're amazing too.
i like the idea of having my little bit of space in a system, if one day they were to take this away id like a replacement mechanic
Well, we could still manually fly out there, right? Tbh I like the gameplay too. I just don't like it being gate kept.
Chloroken my dude, what are you doing? We need magic like this. As SP builds even when offline the true measure of EVE experience is the knowledge of little tricks like these. The way you revealed it that previous video was perfect. I'm all for CCP embracing deep safes in a way that's more fair, but you know as well as I that they're lazy and prefer to remove opportunities rather than build upon them. Maybe if they added some kind of "gas clouds" or "debris fields" as celestials with a built-in scan inhib within a million km but anchoring structures or deployables is prohibited; add a couple per system and make their grids big; maybe that would work, but they're more likely just going to break a mechanic folks have come to rely upon. I hope this gamble pays, but I'm worried we're all gonna lose for it.
This is just a silly little essay. Don't worry, I'm literally a nobody. But I would love some more (intentional) mechanics that play with these topics! Far-out belts sound sweeeet.
Thanks for the education o7
Thank you o7
I saw a Vargur. :)
WHAT WHERE
Nice update to the original discussion! I'm not sure I agree that these should be banned, but I can certainly appreciate leveling the playing field. I use them in LS for (Ahem..) activities, sharing knowledge of their existence and creation doesn't make them less useful. I've taken to calling them Strange Safes, even have a corp shared folder of our own. One question though.. are they still possible to make in K-space? I haven't made any new ones in a while, and when I tried the week leading up to the Crimson Harvest all I seem to get are poly safes.
Hi, I respect the argument. They can still be made in kspace. But filaments can't be ripped in th highest security systems anymore, so you'd have to use another method. Hope you're well buddy.
I was thinking about a caravan traveling the great wildlands using deep saves out of default combat scan range like real Thukker do it 😎
That's badass! Do it.
Or if you ARE the pirate, finding a good hidey hole is essential :)
I r pir8???
@@chloroken *\0/*
I think the only way abyssal runners would be safe from gankers would be to amass a big group, half would run abyssals while the other half guards the system. Strange safes ward off only the lazy gankers.
As a ganker that is infact lazy. That is the best counter play to Abyssal ganks. Playing eve how it’s supposed to be played, with friends.
Made plenty of these back in 2015 when I used to play… the easier one is to jump to a mission zone and set a bookmark. Finish the mission and then start building offshoots from that point. If you can get multiple mission zones you can really make some great “true strange” spots because you can jump between those bookmarks and then jump to planets or other edge system marks. It’s very easy to make any of these. In reality the only thing that makes it an exploit is that people don’t think to scan in those directions. That’s not an exploit if you’re too stupid to think “hey maybe if I want to find this guy I should search outside the system zone.” The exploit is using those safe spots and then having so much dampening that you can’t be see unless you’re within. A few feet of the target. If they truly want to end true strange, they need to get rid of dampening from system scanners. Then it won’t matter what safe spot you have because you won’t be safe at all on a wide enough scan. Not saying get rid of it entirely, but cap it. You should be able to hide from normal and even advanced scanners but it’s the “full cloak” and “fully hidden” dampeners that make true safe spots an exploit.
No ship in the game is unscannable. Not entirely sure what you meant. And I don't think that mission beacons are relevant to this conversation because this mostly has to do with jspace. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I've used to do these abyssal deep safes but I think that about a month or two ago they patched that and it's not possible to make them anymore. Since then I've tried multiple times to create one and even though I've managed to be exiting an abyssal and in warp when downtime hit, I wasn't able to do it.
Hey, so I think you may be doing it wrong. You simply need to be inside the abyssal area when downtime hits. The exact procedure is wait until 30 seconds remain, use a filament, enter, and then wait patiently until you get kicked off. Don't move. Try that one and let me know if it works.
@@chloroken Ah yes, this one is gonna give you safe spot but I'm talking about the deep safes, like 200AU. To get them you needed to enter the gate and have the server shut down while you are still in warp.
I can't make them anymore so either I'm very unlucky or the exploit got patched.
@@coldgaze5182that method is considered an exploit I believe
The tunnel bug method is literally in the video.
@@chloroken yeah but when was the last time you tried to pull it off?
I have been trying to do it in the last month and I just cant. Server closes when I'm in warp and upon logging in I'm sitting in the same spot I was before to enter the abyssal.
2 months ago I was able to make 3 deep safes without an issue, it was only hard to get the timing right. That's why I think it was patched just recently. Or perhaps I'm just extremely unlucky.
I have old safes in low that I've used for ages. Created from nothing more than mission running.
If these techniques ever become an exploit please come back and update this video. I would hate someone watching this in a year or 10 get banned following this.
Great information.
? They don't want us to make a Poly Safe, then cloak & travel in a random direction for 20 minutes? Is thatbthe ban hammer?
You make a good point. No, I don't think flying to strange safe spots would be grey area or an exploit. It's the glitch with filaments that makes it too easy to where some folk like me have 100s of these things, while others have none. Just my opinion.
Even with a 10km/s frigate it would take months or even years of ininterrupted flying to reach a position far enough to be considered a true strange safe
I tried doing this in my wormhole and ended up in Kspace 1j from jita after downtime for some reason. Is this a bug or side effect from doing this?
That's an exploit called Abyssal Tunneling. It's banned. I discovered and made a video about it.
I don't think making a script to detect true stranges would be too difficult. It's not easy but not too hard. And it shouldn't be something too taxing to do in terms of computing power
I'm sure you're right. Draw up some psuedocode for an algorithm real quick if you want. I'll play code review. :)
@@chloroken I might write up something later but I think what you want to do is have a collection of points (ie planets) which you can warp to and another set of points which are the bookmarks.
There are 2 steps in figuring out which bookmarks are true stranges:
1: do a convex hull algoritham on the points that represent planets. This algorithm draws the smallest possible convex polygon arround a set of points which encompasses all of them (this would be the shape you were refering to).
2: Do a sweep line algorithm to determine which bookmarks are in the polygon. We know we can do this because we have the outer edges of the polygon from the convex hull algorithm. And just delete the ones that aren't in the designated polygon.
You could even tkae this a step further and do the convec hull for all systems only once and save the data for the equations of the outer lines of the polygon. This shouldnt be too much memory as you wold only have like a few numbers per line, and some lines per system. Which would cut down on computation. Also you just need to run sweep line once for every bookmark and then you could run it every time some1 wants to create a bookmark.
Hope i explaned it somewhat, as for the algorithms used convex hull is fairly popular and well documented, and the sweep line(2d) algorithm is more of a method of keeping dynamic intervals
well they could just nuke anything outside of scan range and people can recover/prepare for it incase some "legit" bms will get nuked
But yeah, eve is such an archeology of a game that there are many non intiutive things that need to be known to take advantage of and give quite a big one
Id class many of the old content stuff thats good ISK/h or gives good loot like that, R&D agents for example and many others
Yeah the idea of legit bookmarks getting removed is terrifying. I don't anticipate any action being taken against strange safes though. I just was discussing my opinions. ^^
The algorithm for checking to see if a point is within the polygon is not very hard at all. It's a few more multiplies than a radius check, but used all the time in games. The reason they won't touch it is because they live in fear of the structure code and don't want to tempt that house of cards. Remember a bit ago when a random change caused the gate noise to persist everywhere? It's spaghetti all the way down.
I think there would need to be a few more checks in the algo. Remember a true strange isn't just far from celestials, it's far from the theoretical edge of the system too. That extends beyond simple radius checks because we are no longer dealing with circles. Is the proper algorithm easy to make? Probably. Will they do it? Hell no, for the exact reasons you stated. And that's probably for the best. :)
@@chloroken Super easy, barely an inconvenience. A ray from the strange through the polygon intersects an even number of times, if outside. I wish I get in the code and fix things, sometimes...
I recognise that abyssal safes are unfair to anyone that can't login right before downtime, but declaring them exploits would be a complete nail in the coffin for the majority of abyssal runners.
The nature of abyssals generally means that if someone finds your abyssal trace, you're dead. The _only_ reasonable defence you have is not being found in the first place (doubly so if you're in highsec) and abyssal safes are one of if not the only ways to reasonably do that. Removing them would be like asking the people running halloween sites to run them without dscan, without local and force them to exit from the gate they entered from. There'd be riots at how terrible of an idea that is.
I respectfully disagree. Removing the ability to generate and use strange safes would negatively impact my own playstyle significantly more than abyssal runners. Yet, I still think it'd be the right thing to do, because the esoteric nature of the mechanics lend themselves to exclusivity and pockets of knowledge that create what amounts to classes.
@@chloroken I don't see a problem with pockets of knowledge tbh. Imo they're a sign of a good sandbox.
Cloaky MWD, drag bubbles and smartbombing people mid warp for example. Nowadays they're common knowledge, but in the past they were obscure uses of tools that gave people with knowledge of them an advantage and so were kept hush. I don't think any of those should've been declared exploits though.
The only reason abyssal safes aren't as well known as the cloaky MWD is because it's still relatively new and tbh there's just less people documenting the game nowadays.
So I wouldn't go as far as calling it esoteric, but like I said I do recognize that it can be considered unfair to people in certain timezones in a similar sense that multiboxing can be considered unfair to people from poorer backgrounds/regions.
Hey, fair enough. I don't think you're necessarily wrong about anything you just said that time. I think there is a difference between module tricks and abyssal + downtime interaction, though. Whether that difference means anything is up for debate. Thanks for sharing your views.
@@chloroken Oh for sure, there's definitely a valid argument for them not being 1:1 comparisons.
I guess in that sense it becomes a question of where someone personally draws the line between unintended mechanic and exploit.
Hidey holes should be censored speech
I mean, you're not wrong.
Seems like there's a Diddy joke herein.....
I hate that :((
Pushing devs to declare this as an exploit. Hmmm …. Why?
It feels like an unfair advantage to me. That's why I'm organizing to make them more accessible. If CCP decided to call them all exploits, it would save me a lot of time and effort. x)
@@chloroken so it’s a convenience for you? CCP made it clear that tunneling was an exploit. Is this a moral crusade as declared by you?
I think you're confused. Watch the video carefully.
@@chloroken Tunneling was never grey. As soon as you published it - hoping you wouldn’t get reprimanded by CCP for demonstrating it. They made a very public declaration about it. They also have something similar in place to deal with structures being placed outside of the solar system bounds.
Deep safes; are not that - and hardly unfair. They are on par with all the log-off Alphas you and others sit inside of WH’s for permanent access…. Inside targets … c13’s …. Shattereds … etc…
I reported Tunneling 10 months before that video. It was ignored by the devs. It was grey that entire time. I also knew I wouldn't get reprimanded, because I did nothing wrong. The "similar something" in place is an exploit rule that states citadels can't be 10AU outside of the normal locations. It has nothing to do with anything I've talked about in this video.
My mission with this video is to level the playing field, help out the exploration community, and share my knowledge. I only mentioned the idea of them being labeled as an exploit because it's always an option CCP reserves. You have a lot of misconceptions about these exploits and my motives as a player. You should ask more questions. I'm happy to explain myself to those that actually want to know.
Edit: Also, for what it's worth, I think seeds should be nerfed too. :)