Modern Standard CCW Setup VS Oldschool Stopping Power! 9mm JHP VS .38 Special LSWC (Short Barrels)
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- Testing the Remington UMC 9mm 115 gr JHP from my 3.2" Taurus G2C VS the Remington Performance Wheelgun .38 Special 158 gr lead semi wadcutter from my Taurus 605 into a 10% Clear Ballistics Gel block test. Always appreciative of any channel help :) www.patreon.co...
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I have been asked for a very long time to test this basic SWC (non hollow point) ammo. I don't recall if I ever tested it in gel before, but nonetheless I haven't in awhile if I have. I have also tested it in my 3" Taurus 856 compared to the .22 LR 36 gr Viper (Truncated Cone) ammo from my Taurus TX22, as that's sort of a SWC bullet. I have not released that video yet.
I have some of the vipers and they are a nice round.
In the early ‘80s I was forced to shoot a suspect from about two arms-length away w/my issued 4” Model 15 S&W revolver. The duty ammo was the old FBI load, a 158 grain lead hollow point, center mass hit, and it put the suspect down. Not sure, but it sounds similar to what you’re testing. In my experience the old .38 is still a capable load. Impressive marksmanship @ distance. Thanks for what you do, I always learn something.
I've seen you comment before and I believe you mentioned Mas Ayoob told your story in one of his book? What is the title of that book? Thank you for your service brother.
-Former LEO NYC Housing PD.
The FBI load had a hollow point. He tested this load in this video titel ".38 Special - Buffalo Bore "FBI Load"
@@nicholasroberts9618I was talking with a Retired NYC Housing Cop who shot a bad guy with the 147 grain Sub Sonic load that I believe Transit Police used at that time in the early 90’s.
I was issued the Federal Hydrashok 124 grain Hydrashok +P+. My agency switched to the Winchester 124 grain SXT +P in the mid 2000’s. We had Winchester 158 grain SWCHP +P for our service revolvers. The off duty back up snubnose revolvers were issued the Remington 158 grain SWCHP +P.
The Glock 9mm was definitely an improvement over the revolver.
@@nicholasroberts9618Google Lessons From Ken Howard, a 2016 magazine article in American Handgunner, and it should pop up.
The semi wad cutter penetration will bust up sternum and ribs, puncture organs, and possibly damage the spine from a front entry shot. Either one is going to create a lot of damage.
Filmed April 10th 2024. I want to preemptively say this; that I know someone is going to come on here and freak out about how Federal HST 124 gr+P is better, or something like that. But if you guys may have noticed, I like to keep the brands the same most of the time with ammo, as well as with scales of "goodness" of ammo.
For example, I would never compare PMC .40 S&W to Speer Gold Dot 9mm+P+ LE ammo. Nor would I compare let's say, Buffalo Bore .38 Special+P to Fiocchi 9mm in JHP ammo. I feel like Remington 9mm 115 gr JHP and Remington .38 Special LSWC are bottom barrel acceptable for self defense, so I am using comparable ammo in my mind. Like in 1955, LSWC .38 Special was bottom barrel good and the same for this 9mm in today's world.
Hey, that Remington Green Box 9mm did not do that bad!........................elsullo
Paul Harrell was always impressed how well the Remington Green and Yellow box performance was in his meat target. He actually was the first to prove how watered down most 10mm factory ammunition is.
Over 73,000 subscribers! Way to go
While I am proud of it, if you look at how long I been doing this....it's hardly any. Most people consistently uploading for 15 years get like a million subs.
100k by December YEEEEEEHAAAAW BABY 👍
@@GunSam u got quality over quantity ;)
It's sad to see such great creators not getting the subs they should whenever I try a new carry round you almost always have a test that shows the performance thank you for all you do for the community.
@@ethan.amosberg835 It's to be expected that things are this way though. Most of the high sub count people have sponsors. Once you get a sponsor, you more or less cannot speak the truth about a product if it is bad. Most of them usually have stuff sent to their channel for free. I have never received a single gel block, box of ammo or gun sent to me by a company. So the growth is slower. I have no idea how the sponsoring creates more views, but it does somehow.
Sorry to leave another off topic comment Sam. Lol... But just wanted to share the story of a 85 year old woman in Idaho. Defending herself during a home invasion. The woman used her 357 mag fired 2 shots at the perp. While the 39 year old male perp returned fire with his 9mm. The 85 year old was hit 4x in chest, stomach, arm, and leg. And she survived. The perp took those 2 hits from the 357 mag and took the dirt nap......just happened a few days ago
I just looked it up. Crazy that she took 4 rounds at 85. Let's not say 9mm sucks lol we don't know if he was using 9mm +p+ or hollows. But still impressive for the 357. And I doubt it was any specialty brand.
I'm glad she survived and the bad guy got to explain to Saint Peter 😊
@user-wo2iw3kt8o yep happy to hear the 357 is getting it done......and in this, I'm case happy the 9mm didn't lol
@@brandonmartin6203 I'm sure the perp was using whatever he got his hands on. Likely FMJ 115 grain stuff. Strange how "people don't bring up details".
Sounds about right lol. My mom is about 74 and I gave her my S&W Governor as I got too much scoffing at for using it in tests. I gave her a box of .45 Colt Critical Defense.
Gun Sam im rewatching. You are a really good shot. Awsome. I bought the Charter Arms 38 spl 2". Its 5 round cylinder. . I just shot it at about 15 yrds. And is hitting point of aim. And no failures. Its aluminum frame,but rated to plus p. . Its very light. It will be my city gun after i give it a workout. 😊😊😊
Why didn't you use the Hertenberg Ticondas 9mm +P+P÷P 147 grain Depleted Uranium sniper boolits? My dad's brother's nephew said they were the boolits that the Navy SEALS used to take out Bin Laden.
lol, isn't the depleted uranium core bullets the type that this one jet has, that sounds like a buzz saw when it shoots? I don't remember the name of it.
RUclips banned those ammos because radiation emitted by the video can blind people who live in their mother’s basement.
@@GunSamA-10 warthog shooting a 7 barrel 30mm cannon at between 3-6000 rounds per minute.
T I C O N D A S
We're you not even listening to Paul?? They were way to expensive to shoot, even for rabbits
Excellent test video as always!
I rotate my pocket EDC from 9mm Sig crown 147 grain JHP to 38 Hornady spl+p 110 grain FTX. Choice depends on my mood on that day. Sig sauer micro or s&w wheel…hmm?? Sometimes I just flip a coin ✌️
@gunsam
If you could only put one carry round in your 2” .38spl, out of all the .38spl rds you have tested over the years what would you chose?
Short barrels are accurate. The issue becomes the pistol is lightweight, prone to movement, and the user cannot see sight motion as easily. That said, a Korth or Manurhin is more accurate than a Taurus.
Remington is really making a solid comeback with their ammunition quality.
I appreciate this test. My partner Bob quite often carries a 2" 38 loaded with semi wadcutter ammo. In 9mm its either 115 or 124 grain.
Thanks for doing this video! I carry a G2C 115gr and alternate with Taurus 85 with SWC. Very happy with both!
This was a well constructed test !!!
Remingtons new owners seem to want to make the brand great again.
The 9mm actually expanding out of a short barrel was impressive. 9mm has a tendency to pass thru in military use. Civilian use needs expansion.
I have a 5” Ruger GP100 and it seems anyone can shoot it very good. So I always thought it was weight & sight radius. You mentioned you don’t think sight radius is an issue for you. There used to be an “ art “ called point shooting. This was why GI 1911’s had such poor sights compared to modern versions. I suspect you do point shooting.
An only in my state sporting goods store carries the G2, G3, & G4. I assumed the G2 was extinct. Not true at all. Taurus can improve the G2 twice and still have the G2 sell.
Yes, I do a lot of point shooting. It's why a laugh at the huge optics. My entire training is to get closer and closer to a point of muscle memory so good, that I never need a front sight picture at 7 yards.
Great test as usual Sam . I worked in a gun shop in the 80's. And a lot people carried that type of load in their 38 special. All that varied was weight. We sold a lot of 125 and 158 grain. And we sold a lot of sjhp as well. It was funny people didn't complain about stopping power, and we catered it law enforcement.
My EDC is a Taurus G3C (I like the grip texture better😄) loaded with 124 grain Federal HSTs. From the performance I see with your test, it would seem to come down to cost of ammo. I have 2, 38/357 revolvers. A Rossi, 5-shot, 38 snubby, and a Ruger GP100, 7-shot, .357, 6". I have to admit, I love shooting both the Ruger and the Rossi, but, as I mentioned earlier, it's MUCH less expensive to shoot the 9mm. That being said, I'm going to the range today with the GP100!!👍😉
That 9mm did well, good consistent performance.
Good video and info.
The 9mm load has been around for a long time and the bullet has been tweeked to where it works nicely. I would not hesitate to use it.
I honestly don't know how you hit a target with a snubby from that distance. I'm older, but the sights are so large, the target so small at 70 yards, it would be pure luck that I ever hit it! Nice shootin' as always!
I like the swc design. Thanks for testing. I do believe theres a difference in various swc bullets. Factory tends to be softer with more rounded edges. I have some handloads that are cast out of a harder lead alloy and the mold caused them to have sharper edges which I believe would do more damage.
GS. Good video and great shooting. Interesting comparison. Thanks for sharing.
That sliver of a damage path with the 38 in plain gel really shows it's just moving through the material without disrupting much around it. Like being stabbed with an ice pick versus a half inch wide knife blade. There has to be a difference to the felt trauma between the two I feel like you're glossing over a little bit here... The energy being transferred by the faster 9mm clearly has a wider damage path that can make a difference passing close to vitals my dude...
I love the old 38spl. I think the ammo companies have done it a bit of a disservice by not applying much of the improved technology to it. That said, if you are willing to look and test, there are some top 38spl options out there.
Excellent video. Thumbs-up ~John
Lead Semi Wadcutters? I'm brought to mind the toy robot that swings it's doors open and tells the bad guy "Eat Lead Sucker" before he blasts away in the Bruce Lee spoof in Kentucky Fried Movie.
You Absolutely should be as trained up to hit as far as your ability allows and the situation dicates to stop someone's deadly actions. If they are currently a deadly threat to you or other's is all that matters and there have been cases well past 40 yards I've listed before. If I only had access to bottom barrel JHPs I'd want the bigger expanding WWB top of mag and the farther penetrating Remington tested here bottom of mag. Watch Paul Harrell's first Meat Target Hyper vs Regular vid...and then mine. Found more data about Radial Force/pressure wave/E15 and opinions about .357 impact velocities after shooting 8K plus animals that yes 1300-1600 fps seems to do more than just physical crush...faster then 1600 say lever gun within 50 yards even more so. My 2nd "Modern Meat Target" vid Plus P vs Plus P Plus goes live Saturday Morning. Had I used a longer barrel would have been even more dramatic.
I love my 'stubby wheel guns' but there's no doubt a reliable auto loader has more to offer.
In my continuous search for the best compromise, I bought an old 'Para Ordnance' PDA .45 ACP with a 3.5 barrel a couple days ago. While not near as powerful as my .357 mags, the .45 ACP is a close second.
I'm able to conceal it with very little printing, and being a double action only, with a 6 round mag, I'm able to get 6 (plus 1) powerful +p rounds that can easily be reloaded with a dump and push mag (rather than a clumsy revolver reload). The fact it has that weird 'half' hammer without the spur makes it that much less apt to catch as I pull it out to.
My only issue so far is the inability of this gun to take anything but round nose ammo. I'm slowly but surely working the ramp to a point where it won't have any problems with hollow point or cast rounds. Nothing worth having is easy!
I think the auto has more to offer in certain conditions. I got a 5" M&P semi auto in my house for defense and another one in my vehicle. Being that size they are reliable and the extra capacity that will run reliably especially with higher power rounds up to .40 S&W and .45 ACP, have more to offer than a similar size revolver like my S&W 686 .357 Mag 4". That being said, I can't blanketly say that a semi auto in a small package, or in a very powerful cartridge like a micro 9 or a full size 10mm, is going to run when I need it to. I have had way too many malfunctions. Pocket gun or bear gun, it's going to be a revolver, period, for me. For mid-range power cartridges in larger firearms, yes those are 'better' than a big revolver in a similar caliber.
great video Sam
I hear ya on the disclaimer, but no matter how ya swing it, whiners are gonna whine. Just do you. And stop reading the comments! Lol at least the fringe ones.
Well how could I find good comments like yours if I didn't read them? lol
@@GunSam A conundrum for the ages 😄 but keep that chin up! I'd wager there's far more of us who get your points than who don't. From one murder mitten man to another, keep em coming!
PizzA
I still carry a snub nose .38spl lol
Hopefully I can find the 158 grain locally. That's my huckleberry (hucklebearer is actually the real slang😅).
Good video thank you 👍
I really enjoy this channel and your real-world views.
What a lot of people don't get (and some 'tubers) is that the human body is not one long continuous, homogeneous block. Skin (which, at least used to be said was worthy of 4" of ballistic gel), fat, muscle, bone, space, maybe some organ tissue and/or other fun stuff, more space, ... there is a lot of space ... and different textures and resistances.
I agree with you that "over penetration" in gel does not automatically mean a round will exit a much tougher human torso and endanger folks down range.
Really all that matters in stopping a threat is hitting the right things. Fancy bullets do not make up for poor hits and a hit with an old-school, underperforming bullet can and has dropped someone immediately. Again, love your content!
I've shot a lot of 158 grain semi-wad cutters in my 357
I think it would be fun to compare the 38 and the 357 with full size and short barrels with the 158 grain semi-wad cutter
Good test! The NYPD issued .38 swc loads for decades and they earned the nickname Widowmaker due to terrible results. One of my coworkers worked for the transit police around 1979-80 and (not within policy) used only Super Vel, as did most of his coworkers because the issued round was so bad
Defensive ballistics is one of the most fickle things to pin down what does or doesn't work well. Like for an example, a load like this .38 Special load or a .380 ACP ball round, often drops men who are trying to rob someone because they are surprised at a concealed handgun coming out, and fall over when being shot, but then a cop who has to shoot someone who is fighting going to prison for life, that suspect will have more juice in them and can almost be unaffected by being shot multiple times with cartridges that have a street record of over 90% one shot stop. Knowing all this makes coming to conclusions about handgun effectiveness round to round hard to be sure about. One thing that does seem to be consistent though, is a round that is very fast and light for caliber, that under-penetrates in the "FBI minimums in gel" are often the rounds that do stop people well. The faster that hollow point open up, the more likely it will stop a threat even if in gel testing later, it only goes 10" rather than the 12" minimum we are 'supposed' to see.
@GunSam Amen to that! Choosing the right round is part science and part voodoo. What I can say from investigating dozens of officer involved shootings is the current genre of duty type rounds do a consistently good job in actual firefights, with shot placement being the most critical factor. I've seen good results with 124+p and 147 9mm gold dots, winchester t series (especially 127+p+), and any of the 180 40's and 230 45's. The off duty and backup guns in 380 and 38 have more sporadic results, but my actual observations are limited in number so are less reliable. But this conclusion is consistent with the research numbers
@GunSam I forgot to mention rifle rounds. Fewer actual observed shootings, but the 223 62 gold dots work great. The only failures I've seen in 223 / 556 is the hornady tap 55 grain. Works fine until you have to shoot through any barrier. It's a v max varmint bullet that completely fragments, and doesn't reach the target with anything large enough to be effective. The gold dots thru windshields and car doors did a fantastic job. Thru car doors, the petals would sometimes shear off leaving a .224 wadcutter looking shank to continue on. Tough bullet
I still have a few 18 round boxes of duty ammo my late friend had left from his service in NYPD. It was standard pressure .38 Special 158 grain LSWC just like we see here.
Surprising how adequately good ol Remington umc performs
Algorithm
Excellent brief explanation of the merits of gels and bone simulants in testing! Also good to point out that some bullets are designed FOR the gel test rather than for actual use! Way back in the Nineties I stocked up on the original Starfire 9mm bullets because they "humanely" killed lots of test Strasburg Goats much better than any others! Starfire did not do as well in gel and so did not sell well. The name "Starfire" was sold off and is no longer the same product...............................elsullo
Great comparison 👍
Thanks
I've never seen the FBI Load expand out of s snubnose barrel, outside of Underwood's version of it.
My agency issued the Remington 158 grain SWCHP +P for officers who carried a back up or off duty snubnose revolver.
@@boostimalaka1 Those guys must've been made of far tougher stuff than me, because shooting 158gr .38 +P of any kind is too much for me in a snub. Especially if it's an airweight.
@@CyborgZeta My S&W 442 actually shot well with the 158 grain +P Remington LSWCHP.
@@boostimalaka1 I'm not talking about accuracy though, but about felt recoil. Unless you don't think felt recoil from a 158gr .38 +P is bad in an airweight. In which case, again, you and your peers are made of tougher stuff than me. I can't stand the felt recoil of 158gr loads in an airweight.
When I was a young man every one carried semi wadcutter soft lead plus p. Or silver tips. 9mm was thought of as just a hole puncher. Those years are long gone
Hi gun Sam great video. 2 very popular rounds. Both would work to protect your family.
Man I'm seeing desperation out of the USCCA lately
Gun Sam, you really do a good job on your videos. You have one of the best firearms channels, imo.
Bump
Good shooting Gun Sam way better than i could do. Impressive 😊
Yep
Appreciate the demo.
👍😊 on double action at distance what about single action at least one or two. Good shooting 👍😊.
Nice. 9mm did really well and 38spl isnt bad either.
Did you get a chance to send that Taurus back?
What's nice about the 158 grain SWC is that it's probably the most handloaded analog of the .38 Special.
I used to load them a lot, Hornady SWC. You could handload them wrong and they are fine lol. No crimp, tad more powder than that tiny charge, too deep seating...eh. Still well under 17,000 PSI, too low power for bullet creep regardless.
@@GunSam I just caught myself, I was going to post my powder and load.
Damn that cheapo 9mm did a nice job.
Very goof information as usual
Great job as always enjoy the content
9mm proved to be the better from Taurus.
Great comparison.
Thanks for the short barrel.
❤️⚖️🏛️💯✝️
Hi Sam, that 9mm is an honest performer, the .38 lswc may be more versatile though, it flied straight even in gel, looks like a good load for outdoors.
Nice to see rtal world
Believe the hideous video just released from North Carolina settled the ol' revolver versus semi-auto debate.
What video is that?
@@drewmoore365 Don't know how to do the link thing,but Good Luck America "when not to turn your back" for vid.But Legally Armed America has a better scene break down...
@t2brfu67 I just watched it....I don't know how that settle the revolver vs semi debate. However a story just came out in Idaho. A 85 defended herself during home invasion with her 357 mag. She took 4 hits chest, stomach leg and arm i think. And she lived. The perp was hit twice with the 357 and took the dirt nap. Now it doesn't say what the perp was using. But 4x on a 85 year old lady. Vs 2x with a 357 mag on a 39 year old man. I'll let you be the judge lol.
Just checked it was a 9mm
@@drewmoore365 Not a caliber debate,Sam's vid is because no semi-auto 38 Specials.My point is,the proponderance of evidence is "More =Better"
Hey Sam was there any particular reason you didn't go with 686+. Just wondering if it had anything to do with the thinner chamber walls
Go with it?
@GunSam yea was there a reason you chose the 6 shot vs the 7
@@drewmoore365 In general, like when I bought that revolver seven years ago? lol. I'm thinking, I didn't even use that in this test so why are we talking about that. Trying to remember exactly why I chose 6 VS 7 is impossible as I don't remember them even having a 7 shot available. But if I did purposely choose 6 over 7 (which I don't know if I even made that choice) it would mostly be due to me being used to 6 shots, and 6 being sort of a muscle memory number. Six trigger presses on a 5 or 6 shot revolver was my norm. Good chances is if I got a 7 shot, I would be dumping a good round on the ground every time I shot and reloaded the thing.
@GunSam lol copy that. My Lgs has 1 of each. And I didn't know if there was any benefit for choosing the 6 shot. I've read the 627 timing goes out sooner. But might just be internet myth. But since the standard and the plus are the same size. Just didn't know if the standard 6 was stronger in some way. But just wanted your input before I purchase is all. I appreciate it
@drewmoore365 if ur handloading nuclear loads get 6. If ur CCW get 7 obviously
Sam Spade, Phillip Marlowe, Nick Charles, and Joe Friday carried .38 specials, which is good enough for me.
“I’m trusting my Life to this scripted outcome of something I saw on TV/Film”. Wow.
Interesting test. I don't run 9 mill. I do run the .38. I have some of the UMC used in the test. I prefer .38 +P. I'll run the UMC this weekend and see how I do.
Thanks Mr. Sam
Walio back my nickname growing up was Son of Sam cause of my dad’s name!
Should have been 380 ACP vs 38 Special because 380 and 5 shot 38s are closer in size for CCW. If using 9 mm, then +P 38 110 grain should have been used, which is popular for CCW and more realistic competition to the 9 mm. As is, it is an apples and oranges comparison but it is your channel and people watch so...
I guess you missed the explanation at the beginning when he explained the comparison was between popular old school carry/rounds and popular current carry/rounds. Think of it as 1970 apples to 2020 apples.
It is apples to apples, not apples to oranges like you say. In your way of thinking, if I compared a drag queen to a man in a foot race, this would be the "right" way to do it....when the point was to see how a man and woman compare. Same thing here. Is .380 ACP the MOST popular setup now days? No, it's not. Was the .38 Special snub the most popular setup for CCW in decades past? YES, yes it was. That IS the apples to apples point here. Way over your head.
@@GunSam You beat me with experience on the men and drag queens comparison.
Might be nit picking but I think it would have been a better comparison if the 38 had been a 125 gr. Either than or the 9mm using a 147 gr slug. Just a bit more apples to apples comparison. The 9mm is going to be faster due to higher chamber pressure than the black powder period 38 spl and it's much lower PSI.
Is 147 gr more popular than 115 gr in carry guns now days? Did people back in the day think less than 158 gr was a good idea? This test evolves mostly around the Remington UMC/HTP SWC .38 Special, does that come in a 125 gr? My opinion is apples to apples in terms of most common, was done perfectly or I would not have picked what I picked.
I dont find your suggestion to be a fairer test at all. Each caliber was created with an ideal projectile weight, velocity and chamber pressure. Deprecating the performance of one caliber so that it's numbers are closer to another caliber is not fair or realistic. A person could handload and deprecate the performance of 9mm enough to make it's numbers comparable to 380 but that defeats the purpose of 9mm.
-Misses the point of comparison
-Instead of understanding, attempts to make their own.
@@CrashRacknShoot That's what I deal with a lot. I have yet to have a person who comes up with a "should have" idea, ever link a video of them showing what they said I should have done, and done right lol
@@GunSamand besides it’s your channel, keep doing you! You have alot of followers that like your content, no matter how you present it. I’m learning alot!
Thanks for the video good information