Yes but I did managed to make it after two times failure , I started backing sense 7 months only , I was just trying to make my own bread then I ended up falling in love with bread and I stopped buying bread very long time ago , and I learned many technique from you , thank you so much for everything .
And I think the kind of the oven is very important too , unfortunately I have ordinary electric oven , I don't want to buy very good and expensive one cause I'm leaving with my Filipino wife to philppines for good after three months so I'll fix my self there inshallah ( if God welling ) .
@@ebrahimsaleh5040 Mine is a regular electric oven. The only special thing about it is that it heats to 300C/572F, which was something I wanted for bread baking when I bought it :) I understand why you don't want to invest, if you are moving soon :)
Doing ciabattas, yes, when I have to lift a sort of sludgy matter. .. the dough, and transfer it onto a couche. .. but if the gluten has worked its magic, all is well. Still, It took me a year to manage very soft, runny type of dough, I am only an amateur cooking for others. So much to learn, so much wonders to discover! Thank you Foodgeek, for your great tuition videos which certainly are very much hard work to create (I used to be a camerawomen and photographer when young), it is tough work to put videos like yours together! Super work.
I keep coming back to this recipe as a foundation for different experimentations on high hydration bread, so thank you VERY much for the bread calculator !
This is aweome. I'm in the middle of making it now. Just started the coil folding, and looking good so far. Even if I mess it up from this point, it's great fun. Thanks for posting this. I'd never come across Tangzhong before and feel like I've just been told how to do a magic trick!
Wow.... Lovely.... 👏👏👏 I never turn back after learning about Tangzhong bread.... & this is the first sourdough bread I've seen with Tangzhong.... I love how little flour u used while shaping the dough as it's such a high hydration bread (I would've lost my patience).... 👍👍👍👍👍 Great video and the blog is very informative.... ❤❤❤ Thanks, Sune~ 💕
I think I did a pretty good job with my attempt at this recipe, considering it was just my second time making sourdough loaves. I don’t have baskets for the final shaping but I do have a Dutch oven now and I think it’s very helpful. I preheat it and the bottom of my loaves get almost burnt...I’d raise the shelf but it would then be too high and I could hit the heating element with the lid. Anyway, making due with what I have and I owe my success to Sune and his great videos and explanation. Love watching over and over. 💕 if I figure out how to post a pic, I will. Thanks Sune!
@@catherineiselin Yes, I should have mentioned that in a video. Normally I've done them in a pan, but after watching Dan I thought it was much easier in the microwave :)
@@Foodgeek You are very inspirational, because you do love cooking, like music, it can be shared and we are most grateful to have people who walk the path, while we attempt, very clumsily, to become better bakers. Thank you again. :)
Wow. 1st Thanks so much. 2nd pronounce tang -> tongue . My baking hobby actually started with the desire to make milk bread/toast. Recently I was given some sd starter from my lovely sister. I was just thinking about using tangzhong with sd starter. Thanks again. Oh & in Japanese it's yu-da-ne. Cheers!
Hi Sune, I'd love to see this experiment:- Control: A mid-high hydration 'normal' sourdough (say 70-80%) Test: A similarly-workable Tangzhong dough. This will obviously be higher hydration, maybe 80-90%. Then evaluate the texture of the resulting loaves on days 1, 3, 5, 7. That would give us a really good idea of whether Tangzhong does 'what it says on the tin' regarding shelf life/workability and whether it's worth the extra prep step?
Hi Sune, I just want to ask you 3 questions. 1. Why did you say this not for beginners? If the tangzhong helps to make the boule easier to handle and it's not that complicated to make (flour + water + microwave) then shouldn't it be good for beginners who might have a hard time dealing with sourdough since sourdough usually has higher hydration than other breads? 2. What should I do if my oven only goes up to 230 Celcius? 3. What can I substitute rice flour to dust the bannetons with? Can I use tapioca flour or sweet potato flour?
My last loaf was 20% scalded rye 10% whole wheat about 83%total hydration. It was quite nice. You do not need 1:5 water to make the scald/Tangzhong. 1:2 has the same chemistry.(You can go as low as 1:1.2, but this is physically stiff and difficult to mix) Be sure to weigh the scald before and after heating, there is substantial evaporation that must be compensated. Yudone and Tangzhong are the same thing, exact same written characters, "yudone" is how the characters are pronounced by Japanese speakers and "tangzhong" is how they are pronounced by chinese speakers. Both are the same thing as a scald: minimum 120% hydration and a target temperature of 65c/150f, cover and allow to cool then rest refrigerated overnight (the geletanized starch will continue to change structure when refrigerated) temperatures above 70c will destroy the amylase enzymes that convert starch to sugar. The normal portion for a scald in wheat based breads is 10% to 40% of total flour, the gluten in scalded flour is partially damaged which is a trade. 100% rye could use a larger portion of scald because it does not rely on gluten.
Very well done series on bread making. I have successfully implemented Tangzhong in a sourdough white bread with all the expected results. Very tender bread and a much longer shelf life than is needed because it is eaten. I also love rye bread and the one I use from a King Arthur class starts with my rye starter and rye flour and water overnight then the next day AP flour, water, salt, and a small amount of yeast is added. Because of the lower glycemic index of Rye I'd like to increase the percentage of Rye and lower the AP flour % on day 2. Do you have any experience with Tangzhong and Rye? If I could keep the tender nature of this bread even with an increase of Rye. Does it make sense to only use AP flour on day 2 for the Tangzhong then adjust the Rye/AP percentages accordingly. Thanks again for the video series.
I'm happy you're enjoying it :) Never tried tangzhong and rye. Rye is a strange beast :) Have you looked at my 100% rye bread recipe? Because the hydration is pretty high there too which gives you the same effects as the tangzhong :) ruclips.net/video/-Vo0i9k8oJo/видео.html
It’s getting really good, thanks Sune, :) But I have one question, Because I am away from home for work long hours every day, I knead starter, flour from Lavigne and dough, the Tangzhong and all the fluid and the salt together in the morning. Over the first 2h I ask someone to stretch & fold 3x, and let it bulk ferment in the fridge (6’C) until I come home in the evening. It usually double sized by then so after flattening, shaping and proofing (1-1,5h) I get a great oven spring, nice crust and very soft crumb. What am I loosing by blending Levine, autolyse and bulk fermentation all together, rather than developing Levine and autolyse separately?
I don’t have time in the morning to wait for my levin to peak that would be 4 hrs could I use my own starter or start the levin the night before. It might fal before morning
Hi Sune. In your instructions, the salt was mixed with flour at the process of autolyse. I noticed that some procedures adding salt after autolyse. Is this difference will influence the flavor or structure of bread.
Resulting flavor and structure is the same. The salt does tighten the gluten network, so if you work with doughs with less than 75% hydration you problem will want to wait with the salt until after you mix in the starter :)
I'm slowly getting better at low hydration doughs, is there any recipe on youtube or the internet in general you would recommend for "your first high hydration attempt"? This one, or another one without the tangzhong?
I recently stumbled into an(other) attempt to replicate a crusty, chewy, open-crumb white sourdough that I remember from decades back in San Francisco. Thinking to "do something with sourdough," I fed a lazy starter that we've used for years as a complement to commercial yeast several times, ending with a couple of cups' worth. Machine-mixing what I *intended* as a 70% dough, with half white wheat flour (some as tanzhong), fine-ground whole wheat, and a little rye, I seem to have gotten the math wrong, and things went off-plan. The bulk rise was very slow (10 hours to reach ~30%). Spurred on, though, by the fact that it *did* rise, I flopped out the dough, and it was a sticky mess -- guessing it was at 100% hydration or more. At that point, your demonstration here was invaluable. With patience, I could fold thrice (which may have been unnecessary in this case), form a pair of boules, and (a la sandwich bread recipe) form into a *very* soft loaf, and into baking tins. Let rise for 7 hours (!), then baked 210C for 40 minutes, 190C for 15, cooled. Was very happy with a half-successful result: the texture and flavor are close to the intention; but there was zero oven-spring, just because of the laziness of the yeast. With a little more study and few tweaks, this will work. Thank you for your detailed explanations!
Hi Sune, how about an experiment for lower hydration sourdough bread? Perhaps exploring 55% to 65% hydration. For those of us in the tropics, where we have high humidity (80% and above), high hydration becomes really really difficult to handle.
I made this yesterday I mis read the recipe and used my own starter. I’m watching again now, making the levan to peak could take 3-4 hrs so your bread would autolyze all that time ?
i’m making my 5 th batch of 6 loafs or 3 times the recipe. this is great bread , i found your video and the written instructions are different. The written instructions i can use my starter , the video has you mixing the dough and resting 1 hr then add the Tangzhong then mixing. The written recipe has you mixing everything together in the beginning including the Tangzhong is that correct ?
I’m a huge fan-I love your videos! I’m about 5 months into the whole sourdough thing, and I’m starting to get it. 😊 I’m sure you’ve said it on a different video, but what is the difference between different hydrations? I know it’s a bit harder to work with, but what’s the effect on the taste and/or texture? My primary goal is to bake whole grain loaves, and I’ve been using your basic recipe but just substituting whole grain flours (currently 50% whole wheat and 50% spelt). It works out well, but should the hydration be higher?
Karen Cooper - the higher your whole grain percentage is, the more hydration your bread will need to be. Whole grains absorb a lot more water than regular bread flour or all purpose flour does. I’ve seen 100% whole wheat sourdoughs with 90% hydration. So adjust accordingly! I tend to do 20% whole grain (I mill my own kamut or spelt) and use 75% to 80% hydration, although I try to keep it under 80% otherwise the weight of the dough will challenges the strength of the gluten for oven spring. If I go 25% to 30% whole grain, then it takes 80% hydration much easier!
wonderful information! Thanks! Can the music fill be reduced to background levels? On my browser, your nice, soft voice is instantly followed by music with harsh beat and much higher level. Thanks . Keep the videos coming!!
i saw in another video that you used a baking steel, is it very important i mean is it much better than a pizza ceramic stone with yout breads? or it does not make a huge difference?
Hi! Thanks for these great videos! I tried that high hydration dough. It developed very well in the oven and was tasting great, but I had a hard time to get it out of the proofing basket. Did I just let it rest too much time in there? It was sticking very much to the cloth. What can I do to prevent this sticking (it was dusted with flour)? And do you have advice how to clean the cloth from that sticky dough? Thanks, Michael
Use rice flour. It doesn't have gluten and then it isn't absorbed by the dough. With regards to the cloth, let et dry completely and then break off everything and then dust it off. I was mine about once a month on low temperature 😊
@@michaeljelden2468 I make my own rice flour by putting rice through my flour mill. It doesn't cost a lot. Potato flour, buckwheat, rice, almond, teff or any other gluten free flour can be used. Whatever floats your boat :) I'm super privileged and do not have to look (much) at the price tag, when it comes to food stuffs :)
Foodgeek it’s a flour endemic to Ethiopia and Eritrea, typically used to make injera, a sourdough flat bread eaten with various sauces, meats, and vegetables. It has a very distinctive taste. I’m sure it could be used in sourdough bread!
@@omgchocolate4857 Cool, gotta try some of that. I just found it in a local health food store online, so I can get it here :) Love your name! Did you know I used to make my own bean to bar chocolate? :D
Foodgeek you should also give injera a go! It’s easily my favorite dish of all time lol. And yeah, chocolate is great! I’ve also tried to make bean to bar chocolate before; I should try again! Do you have a video on it?
I'll give it a go. I love trying new stuff :D I didn't make a video about it. I've considered it, but it doesn't really seem to fit what most of my viewers want to watch :) Some of my chocolates actually won at both International Chocolate Awards and Academy of Chocolate Awards. I was amazed that it was possible for a person just making chocolate in their own kitchen :)
Taufik Setyo You may even get a nicer crumb. I plan to make an experiment where I compare long bulk and no time before fridge vs shorter bulk and warm final before fridge to see how that impacts crumb 😊
@@Foodgeek wow that's freaking interesting.. can't wait for your video about that, i'm gonna try it for sure.. anyway, thank you so much for sharing it to us :)
Hi Foodgeek. i love your channel. learned a lot already....How come i never see sourdough in a metal form. like rectangular pan? rectangular bread is more easy to store in the fridge than round bread.... thx for your reply! and keep on doing the nice YT vids!
I think because they look better free standing. You can bake them in a pan if you want 😊 Don't store bread in the fridge though. Store it in a cotten bag on the kitchen counter 😁
How long would you estimate the bulk fermentation takes at around 70 F to grow the dough by 50%? Does that generally take many hours? Trying to decide when in the day to start the process...
If you want to do a really long autolyse you can do it in the fridge. I usually autolyse on the counter 1-4 hours. There's really no difference in gluten development after 1 hour it seems :)
@@Foodgeek Thank you . Since some theories claimed that post-autolyse salt adding is benefit for the gluten development. It would be helpful to understand the different effect of salt-adding timing.
Hello Sune, Thank you for demonstrating this technique. I have been wondering how to incorporate the TongZhong method into my sourdough baking, both percentage-wise and actual technique-wise. Do you know if you can gelatinize whole wheat flour or rye flour, or is it only the bread flour that is manipulated this way? The hyperlink to your article is not working, btw.
Perfect load indeed! :-) do you think you'll always go with this method or are there any benefits to traditional high hydration method? Also curious if you found any differences in shelf life? Great videos thanks!
Well, since I spent most of my sourdough time coming up with different things for videos, I won't only be using this method, but it prolongs shelf life with several days so it's a great method to make daily bread :)
It allows the gluten to relax. Performing stretch and fold over a period of time with 30 minutes rest doesn't tear the dough and gives more structure and strength to the final loaf
Hi Sune. Great video. Can you tell me how to find the glass jars you use for the sourdough starter? I have searched every which way I can think of but only come up with jars that have tight sealing lids. An aside - I tried reaching you on your website through the comment link but it didn’t seem to be working.
I can’t wait to try this recipe. I am about to buy the oval banneton basket as you provided link to buy which is 10x6x4 in size. I have 5 qt Dutch oven. Oval basket is bigger in length then Dutch oven. Please advice if 10 inch basket size will work. In your video I didn’t see how you insert bread in your black Dutch oven or you put the bread directly on Pizza baking Steel? Thank for your advice.
Hi Foodgeek, I'm using strictly Einkorn these days. Would you PLEASE make a high hydration Einkorn sourdough with tangzhong video? (I used your recipe but with Einkorn and pretty much a disaster.)
Hey. On your written recipe you say to add 277g water autolyse stage, in your video you add 377g. I noticed the dough was dry when mixing so added the 100g water.
Does anyone else notice how after the "final stitch" in the bannetons, they look like wee little tardigrades laid out on their backs for a nap? Just me then? Okay...
Hi I have tried your recipe and the crumb turn out fluffy instead of open like yours and it tasted a little sour (although i tried to use young levain fed 3 times that day and reduce the retardation to 8 hrs). It does not have much oven spring either. Not sure what went wrong. May I know does your loaf taste sour too? I have heard so much on the deep flavors developed from sourdough bread but have not tasted any other sourdough bread to know what to expect from mine. Is there anyway to get or buy some dehydrated starter from you :)? Tks so much.
My starter is not very acidic at all. It does get acidic when I leave it unfed, but as soon as I feed it, it just smells sweet and the breads that I bake have a slight tang, but nothing crazy. I may have some laying around. Where do you live?
Hi Sune, I followed your recipe today for Tangzhong sourdough, the dough is now resting overnight in banettons in the fridge. I couldn't understand why you call it high hydration because it didn't seem wet at all to me. So I checked the written recipe and noticed that in the ingredients it says 377g water, but in the method it says add 277g water (which is what I did). I only noticed the different amounts when it was much too late to add more water. It's a bit disappointing, these two loaves will probably be alright but not as good as they would have been with more hydration.
Hi Lynne, I had a look at the recipe and in the method it says: "3. Add 377g of water to the bowl." under the "Autolyse" section. I cannot find 277g anywhere on that page. Where are you looking?
@@Foodgeek Hi Sune, thanks for your reply. I copied and saved the recipe from the link above when you first posted the video. I see there is another response from someone a month ago saying the same thing I said and you responded that you would change it, which you must have done because looking at the recipe now I see it has changed. I think my loaves will be OK, I will tell you tomorrow, and I'll give the Tangzhong method another try soon. Keep doing the videos, they are really good. Best wishes.
Hi Sune. I followed your instruction to made 85% hydration Tangzhong sourdough bread. The process is fluent, windowpane is obvious and few bubbles appear after four times coil fold, though the dough is sticky at the steps of preshape and shape. The problem is occurred at the final proof. After removing the dough into the banneton and retarded to fridge for 24h, the dough seems no ferment at all. Though the final loaf is flat and dense crust, the crum is extremely soft and delicious. Could you give some advice to improve the fermentation efficiency for the final proof. Thanks a lot.
I re-calculated the weights to be easier to understand, with rounding-tweaks to make proportions easier: 100% flour, of which 5% is for water roux, and 15% is for levaener (out of which 1/3 is starter and 2/3 flour), and 80% is for dough. 80% of flour is water, of which 20% of flour is water for water roux and 10% for leveler, and 50% for dough. *I never understood why recipes weren't written like this.* _Why needlessly overcomplicate things?_
Wish I watched this before I started my 85% sourdough today. This will be my highest hydration yet. It's going ok so far but I think tangzhong would have helped. Maybe next time! Was looking at your calculator and I think the taghazaog water % listed in the recipe is off. When adding up the % of waters it doesn't come up to 100%. The flour % looks correct when I add those up they come to 100%. Looking at this recipe you made: fgbc.dk/7vr. 71.4% + 17.9% != 100% like I think it should. Or am I looking at it wrong?
very complicated recepy. I.m using regularly Tangzhong (water/flour mix) for making pastry/rolls. Also, the water/flour mix should be heated up on stove stirring and about 65 Celsius.......
This isn't a pastry or roll though. It's a sourdough bread :) Tangzhong can be heated in a microwave, it does not have to be a stove. The temperature is the important factor here, to get the starches to gelatinize :)
@@Foodgeek yes I know, is just not everyone is using microwave, my family and friends do not. So, it is better to provide both options. The outcome is excellent, i will look your other videos and will comment. thank you for quick reply..
I am having trouble with gluten structure with whole grain wheat. I was trying to make things easy by skipping the initial kneadings like some of your vids with no luck yet. I just switched to fine ground whole grain wheat which is a little better. I've tried many many strech and folds with no luck. Im guessing the initial kneading is important in whole grain wheat sourdough... ? My idea was to switch to wetter dough to make the initial kneading easier. I dont have much space to work on a countertop. This looks pretty satisfying to do... How to Mix Wet Dough (Rubaud Method) ruclips.net/video/zgz0oAhgwyg/видео.html
Too much whole grain will inhibit the gluten development. I'd usually not recommend more than 30% whole grain if you are making a free standing loaf. I have an experiment coming out in the future where I bake different ratios of whole grain to bread flour to see how it affects the dough and final loaf :)
@@Foodgeek I would love to see that video! Very high hydration and WW was a total fail. "Anita's" is the main organic flour supplier in Canada I picked up a small bag of all purpose, but I would love a second opinion between these two flours. Both are Enriched. Unbleached All Purpose Flour "high gluten strength" anitasorganic.com/product/all-purpose-white-flour/ Flour Type 00 "elastic texture" anitasorganic.com/product/pizza-pasta-flour/
@@adelinesmodernistbread2439 Not that I've heard of too.... I usually prep the TZ just before I get all ingredients ready for the dough.... so long the TZ cools down.... 😊😊😊
Have you ever tried making a high hydration sourdough bread? It's hard isn't it? :)
Yes but I did managed to make it after two times failure , I started backing sense 7 months only , I was just trying to make my own bread then I ended up falling in love with bread and I stopped buying bread very long time ago , and I learned many technique from you , thank you so much for everything .
Yes, I love bread too ❤️ Happy that you are finding success now 😁
And I think the kind of the oven is very important too , unfortunately I have ordinary electric oven , I don't want to buy very good and expensive one cause I'm leaving with my Filipino wife to philppines for good after three months so I'll fix my self there inshallah ( if God welling ) .
@@ebrahimsaleh5040 Mine is a regular electric oven. The only special thing about it is that it heats to 300C/572F, which was something I wanted for bread baking when I bought it :)
I understand why you don't want to invest, if you are moving soon :)
Doing ciabattas, yes, when I have to lift a sort of sludgy matter. .. the dough, and transfer it onto a couche. .. but if the gluten has worked its magic, all is well. Still, It took me a year to manage very soft, runny type of dough, I am only an amateur cooking for others. So much to learn, so much wonders to discover! Thank you Foodgeek, for your great tuition videos which certainly are very much hard work to create (I used to be a camerawomen and photographer when young), it is tough work to put videos like yours together! Super work.
I keep coming back to this recipe as a foundation for different experimentations on high hydration bread, so thank you VERY much for the bread calculator !
Thank you for the calculator! Going to give this method a go tomorrow using my weekly sourdough boule recipe.
This is aweome. I'm in the middle of making it now. Just started the coil folding, and looking good so far. Even if I mess it up from this point, it's great fun. Thanks for posting this. I'd never come across Tangzhong before and feel like I've just been told how to do a magic trick!
I definitely learned something new today. Thanks for all of the tips for working with high hydration dough.
Wow, what a wonderful bread. Never heard of this, until today. Thanks!
I used this formula and the results have been spectacular. Thanks.
Wonderful ❤️
Thank you for the challenge. After a year making my own bread, it’s the next mountain to master.
Best of luck to you. Remember that a failure is a learning opportunity, not a blocker :D
Wow.... Lovely.... 👏👏👏
I never turn back after learning about Tangzhong bread.... & this is the first sourdough bread I've seen with Tangzhong....
I love how little flour u used while shaping the dough as it's such a high hydration bread (I would've lost my patience).... 👍👍👍👍👍
Great video and the blog is very informative.... ❤❤❤
Thanks, Sune~ 💕
Thank you ❤️
I think I did a pretty good job with my attempt at this recipe, considering it was just my second time making sourdough loaves. I don’t have baskets for the final shaping but I do have a Dutch oven now and I think it’s very helpful. I preheat it and the bottom of my loaves get almost burnt...I’d raise the shelf but it would then be too high and I could hit the heating element with the lid. Anyway, making due with what I have and I owe my success to Sune and his great videos and explanation. Love watching over and over. 💕 if I figure out how to post a pic, I will. Thanks Sune!
Thank you so much. You are explaining things clearly and intelligently. Wonderful.
Thank you Catherine ❤️
I have no microwave, but can do my tangzong simply on a good little pan as well.
@@catherineiselin Yes, I should have mentioned that in a video. Normally I've done them in a pan, but after watching Dan I thought it was much easier in the microwave :)
@@Foodgeek You are very inspirational, because you do love cooking, like music, it can be shared and we are most grateful to have people who walk the path, while we attempt, very clumsily, to become better bakers. Thank you again. :)
You are making me blush 😊
Thanks a lot for this tutorial!👍👍👍🇩🇪
Wow. 1st Thanks so much. 2nd pronounce tang -> tongue . My baking hobby actually started with the desire to make milk bread/toast. Recently I was given some sd starter from my lovely sister. I was just thinking about using tangzhong with sd starter. Thanks again. Oh & in Japanese it's yu-da-ne. Cheers!
Hi Sune, I'd love to see this experiment:-
Control: A mid-high hydration 'normal' sourdough (say 70-80%)
Test: A similarly-workable Tangzhong dough. This will obviously be higher hydration, maybe 80-90%.
Then evaluate the texture of the resulting loaves on days 1, 3, 5, 7.
That would give us a really good idea of whether Tangzhong does 'what it says on the tin' regarding shelf life/workability and whether it's worth the extra prep step?
I think doing a "same hydration" would be more fair and usable. Ibviously the bread with more water in it, will stay good for longer :)
Yes you are right , it's a beautiful great bread , perfect , thank you very much for your efforts , wish you success always .
Thank you :D
Hi Sune, I just want to ask you 3 questions.
1. Why did you say this not for beginners? If the tangzhong helps to make the boule easier to handle and it's not that complicated to make (flour + water + microwave) then shouldn't it be good for beginners who might have a hard time dealing with sourdough since sourdough usually has higher hydration than other breads?
2. What should I do if my oven only goes up to 230 Celcius?
3. What can I substitute rice flour to dust the bannetons with? Can I use tapioca flour or sweet potato flour?
beautiful
My last loaf was 20% scalded rye 10% whole wheat about 83%total hydration. It was quite nice. You do not need 1:5 water to make the scald/Tangzhong. 1:2 has the same chemistry.(You can go as low as 1:1.2, but this is physically stiff and difficult to mix) Be sure to weigh the scald before and after heating, there is substantial evaporation that must be compensated.
Yudone and Tangzhong are the same thing, exact same written characters, "yudone" is how the characters are pronounced by Japanese speakers and "tangzhong" is how they are pronounced by chinese speakers. Both are the same thing as a scald: minimum 120% hydration and a target temperature of 65c/150f, cover and allow to cool then rest refrigerated overnight (the geletanized starch will continue to change structure when refrigerated) temperatures above 70c will destroy the amylase enzymes that convert starch to sugar.
The normal portion for a scald in wheat based breads is 10% to 40% of total flour, the gluten in scalded flour is partially damaged which is a trade. 100% rye could use a larger portion of scald because it does not rely on gluten.
Very well done series on bread making. I have successfully implemented Tangzhong in a sourdough white bread with all the expected results. Very tender bread and a much longer shelf life than is needed because it is eaten.
I also love rye bread and the one I use from a King Arthur class starts with my rye starter and rye flour and water overnight then the next day AP flour, water, salt, and a small amount of yeast is added. Because of the lower glycemic index of Rye I'd like to increase the percentage of Rye and lower the AP flour % on day 2. Do you have any experience with Tangzhong and Rye? If I could keep the tender nature of this bread even with an increase of Rye. Does it make sense to only use AP flour on day 2 for the Tangzhong then adjust the Rye/AP percentages accordingly.
Thanks again for the video series.
I'm happy you're enjoying it :)
Never tried tangzhong and rye. Rye is a strange beast :) Have you looked at my 100% rye bread recipe? Because the hydration is pretty high there too which gives you the same effects as the tangzhong :)
ruclips.net/video/-Vo0i9k8oJo/видео.html
Woops. Wrong video :) This one: ruclips.net/video/8EanzisEiMc/видео.html
Thank you so much!
It’s getting really good, thanks Sune, :) But I have one question, Because I am away from home for work long hours every day, I knead starter, flour from Lavigne and dough, the Tangzhong and all the fluid and the salt together in the morning. Over the first 2h I ask someone to stretch & fold 3x, and let it bulk ferment in the fridge (6’C) until I come home in the evening. It usually double sized by then so after flattening, shaping and proofing (1-1,5h) I get a great oven spring, nice crust and very soft crumb. What am I loosing by blending Levine, autolyse and bulk fermentation all together, rather than developing Levine and autolyse separately?
I don’t have time in the morning to wait for my levin to peak that would be 4 hrs could I use my own starter or start the levin the night before. It might fal before morning
As I am new in your site and never came across tangzhong I will read first, and learnt it good, again can I half the recipe? Thanks
Hi Sune. In your instructions, the salt was mixed with flour at the process of autolyse. I noticed that some procedures adding salt after autolyse. Is this difference will influence the flavor or structure of bread.
Resulting flavor and structure is the same. The salt does tighten the gluten network, so if you work with doughs with less than 75% hydration you problem will want to wait with the salt until after you mix in the starter :)
I'm slowly getting better at low hydration doughs, is there any recipe on youtube or the internet in general you would recommend for "your first high hydration attempt"? This one, or another one without the tangzhong?
Hello, how long to wait till levain will take a peak by itself and how long to wait levain + tangzhone and other ingredients? Thank you
I recently stumbled into an(other) attempt to replicate a crusty, chewy, open-crumb white sourdough that I remember from decades back in San Francisco. Thinking to "do something with sourdough," I fed a lazy starter that we've used for years as a complement to commercial yeast several times, ending with a couple of cups' worth. Machine-mixing what I *intended* as a 70% dough, with half white wheat flour (some as tanzhong), fine-ground whole wheat, and a little rye, I seem to have gotten the math wrong, and things went off-plan. The bulk rise was very slow (10 hours to reach ~30%). Spurred on, though, by the fact that it *did* rise, I flopped out the dough, and it was a sticky mess -- guessing it was at 100% hydration or more. At that point, your demonstration here was invaluable. With patience, I could fold thrice (which may have been unnecessary in this case), form a pair of boules, and (a la sandwich bread recipe) form into a *very* soft loaf, and into baking tins. Let rise for 7 hours (!), then baked 210C for 40 minutes, 190C for 15, cooled. Was very happy with a half-successful result: the texture and flavor are close to the intention; but there was zero oven-spring, just because of the laziness of the yeast. With a little more study and few tweaks, this will work. Thank you for your detailed explanations!
You're very welcome 😊 Luckily every failed attempt is usually always delicious 🤤🤤
Hi Sune, how about an experiment for lower hydration sourdough bread? Perhaps exploring 55% to 65% hydration. For those of us in the tropics, where we have high humidity (80% and above), high hydration becomes really really difficult to handle.
I made this yesterday I mis read the recipe and used my own starter. I’m watching again now, making the levan to peak could take 3-4 hrs so your bread would autolyze all that time ?
i’m making my 5 th batch of 6 loafs or 3 times the recipe. this is great bread , i found your video and the written instructions are different.
The written instructions i can use my starter , the video has you mixing the dough and resting 1 hr then add the Tangzhong then mixing. The written recipe has you mixing everything together in the beginning including the Tangzhong is that correct ?
I’m a huge fan-I love your videos! I’m about 5 months into the whole sourdough thing, and I’m starting to get it. 😊 I’m sure you’ve said it on a different video, but what is the difference between different hydrations? I know it’s a bit harder to work with, but what’s the effect on the taste and/or texture? My primary goal is to bake whole grain loaves, and I’ve been using your basic recipe but just substituting whole grain flours (currently 50% whole wheat and 50% spelt). It works out well, but should the hydration be higher?
Thank you
Foodgeek Thank you! I’ll give higher hydration a try, and tangzhong too. 😊
Karen Cooper - the higher your whole grain percentage is, the more hydration your bread will need to be. Whole grains absorb a lot more water than regular bread flour or all purpose flour does. I’ve seen 100% whole wheat sourdoughs with 90% hydration. So adjust accordingly! I tend to do 20% whole grain (I mill my own kamut or spelt) and use 75% to 80% hydration, although I try to keep it under 80% otherwise the weight of the dough will challenges the strength of the gluten for oven spring. If I go 25% to 30% whole grain, then it takes 80% hydration much easier!
wonderful information! Thanks! Can the music fill be reduced to background levels? On my browser, your nice, soft voice is instantly
followed by music with harsh beat and much higher level. Thanks . Keep the videos coming!!
I'm pretty sure that the levels are lower in my newer videos :)
i saw in another video that you used a baking steel, is it very important i mean is it much better than a pizza ceramic stone with yout breads? or it does not make a huge difference?
Hi Sune, thanks for another great video. Can I add water to some of my sourdough starter discard to make the tangzhong? Thanks
Hi! Thanks for these great videos! I tried that high hydration dough. It developed very well in the oven and was tasting great, but I had a hard time to get it out of the proofing basket. Did I just let it rest too much time in there? It was sticking very much to the cloth. What can I do to prevent this sticking (it was dusted with flour)? And do you have advice how to clean the cloth from that sticky dough?
Thanks, Michael
Use rice flour. It doesn't have gluten and then it isn't absorbed by the dough.
With regards to the cloth, let et dry completely and then break off everything and then dust it off. I was mine about once a month on low temperature 😊
@@Foodgeek Great, thank you! With regards to the flour, why not use potato flour if the absence of gluten is the point? It is much cheaper...?
@@michaeljelden2468 I make my own rice flour by putting rice through my flour mill. It doesn't cost a lot.
Potato flour, buckwheat, rice, almond, teff or any other gluten free flour can be used. Whatever floats your boat :)
I'm super privileged and do not have to look (much) at the price tag, when it comes to food stuffs :)
Hi, have ever made bread with Teff flour from Eritrea or Ethiopia. You doing a great job.
No, is it a special kind of flour? :)
Foodgeek it’s a flour endemic to Ethiopia and Eritrea, typically used to make injera, a sourdough flat bread eaten with various sauces, meats, and vegetables. It has a very distinctive taste. I’m sure it could be used in sourdough bread!
@@omgchocolate4857 Cool, gotta try some of that. I just found it in a local health food store online, so I can get it here :)
Love your name! Did you know I used to make my own bean to bar chocolate? :D
Foodgeek you should also give injera a go! It’s easily my favorite dish of all time lol.
And yeah, chocolate is great! I’ve also tried to make bean to bar chocolate before; I should try again! Do you have a video on it?
I'll give it a go. I love trying new stuff :D
I didn't make a video about it. I've considered it, but it doesn't really seem to fit what most of my viewers want to watch :)
Some of my chocolates actually won at both International Chocolate Awards and Academy of Chocolate Awards. I was amazed that it was possible for a person just making chocolate in their own kitchen :)
What if we skip the last fermentation process (on the fridge) and make it just 1 or 3 hours in room temperature until the dough is in double in size?
That is a possibility. I only do that if I am in a hurry, because the flavor develops when the dough is retarding :)
@@Foodgeek i see, but did you still got those nice crumb on the loaf even though we skip the cold fermentation?
Taufik Setyo You may even get a nicer crumb. I plan to make an experiment where I compare long bulk and no time before fridge vs shorter bulk and warm final before fridge to see how that impacts crumb 😊
@@Foodgeek wow that's freaking interesting.. can't wait for your video about that, i'm gonna try it for sure.. anyway, thank you so much for sharing it to us :)
Each week I hope your going to do a panettone so I can try one before xmas, is there one in the pipeline?
Yes, if all goes well it will be next week's video. The levain is rising as I am writing this :)
Can the Tangzhong method be used for lower hydration sourdough loaves?
Hi Foodgeek. i love your channel. learned a lot already....How come i never see sourdough in a metal form. like rectangular pan? rectangular bread is more easy to store in the fridge than round bread.... thx for your reply! and keep on doing the nice YT vids!
I think because they look better free standing. You can bake them in a pan if you want 😊
Don't store bread in the fridge though. Store it in a cotten bag on the kitchen counter 😁
How long would you estimate the bulk fermentation takes at around 70 F to grow the dough by 50%? Does that generally take many hours? Trying to decide when in the day to start the process...
70F is pretty cool. Even with a super active starter I'd guess 5-7 hours 😊
Thanks! I’ll plan accordingly.
How long does this autolyse took on the kitchen counter? Could we perform the autolyse in the fridge for overnight?
If you want to do a really long autolyse you can do it in the fridge. I usually autolyse on the counter 1-4 hours. There's really no difference in gluten development after 1 hour it seems :)
@@Foodgeek Thank you . Since some theories claimed that post-autolyse salt adding is benefit for the gluten development. It would be helpful to understand the different effect of salt-adding timing.
Do I have to reduce the water if using tang zhong ? The average temperature in my country is 33c. Will proofing over counter makes the SD sour?
Hello Sune, Thank you for demonstrating this technique. I have been wondering how to incorporate the TongZhong method into my sourdough baking, both percentage-wise and actual technique-wise. Do you know if you can gelatinize whole wheat flour or rye flour, or is it only the bread flour that is manipulated this way?
The hyperlink to your article is not working, btw.
Thank you ❤️ I don't see why whole wheat wouldn't work this way. Rye is worth an experiment I'd say 😊
Perfect load indeed! :-) do you think you'll always go with this method or are there any benefits to traditional high hydration method? Also curious if you found any differences in shelf life? Great videos thanks!
Well, since I spent most of my sourdough time coming up with different things for videos, I won't only be using this method, but it prolongs shelf life with several days so it's a great method to make daily bread :)
What is the reason to wait a period of time between the “stretch and golds”?
It allows the gluten to relax. Performing stretch and fold over a period of time with 30 minutes rest doesn't tear the dough and gives more structure and strength to the final loaf
What size are your baskets? Lovely bread.
Thanks ❤️ These baskets: fdgk.dk/buy-oval-proofing-baskets 😁
Hi Sune. Great video. Can you tell me how to find the glass jars you use for the sourdough starter? I have searched every which way I can think of but only come up with jars that have tight sealing lids. An aside - I tried reaching you on your website through the comment link but it didn’t seem to be working.
Yes, they are here: fdgk.net/buy-weck-jars 😁
Was a comment or the contact form that didn't work?
The Ryan George shirt tho..
I'm looking forward to trying this. The card link for tangzhong comes up with "Not Found"
Thank you. I fixed it now :)
Can I make the tangzhong using whole wheat flour?
I can’t wait to try this recipe. I am about to buy the oval banneton basket as you provided link to buy which is 10x6x4 in size. I have 5 qt Dutch oven. Oval basket is bigger in length then Dutch oven. Please advice if 10 inch basket size will work. In your video I didn’t see how you insert bread in your black Dutch oven or you put the bread directly on Pizza baking Steel? Thank for your advice.
I baked it in my Dutch oven. If you do is too small you can put a roasting pan over top for steaming 😊
Where did you maded your spatula?
It's this one: fdgk.net/buy-small-spatula
Hi Foodgeek, I'm using strictly Einkorn these days. Would you PLEASE make a high hydration Einkorn sourdough with tangzhong video? (I used your recipe but with Einkorn and pretty much a disaster.)
Hey. On your written recipe you say to add 277g water autolyse stage, in your video you add 377g. I noticed the dough was dry when mixing so added the 100g water.
Thanks for reporting. I'll fix it asap 😊
Does anyone else notice how after the "final stitch" in the bannetons, they look like wee little tardigrades laid out on their backs for a nap? Just me then? Okay...
ahaha tardigrades! Biologist fella?
@@toothbrushshank2019 lol, no...just a fan. Of the channel, and tardigrades. And science.
Hello Sune, the hyperlink is working now. Thank you.
Great. Thank you ❤️
Hi I have tried your recipe and the crumb turn out fluffy instead of open like yours and it tasted a little sour (although i tried to use young levain fed 3 times that day and reduce the retardation to 8 hrs). It does not have much oven spring either. Not sure what went wrong. May I know does your loaf taste sour too? I have heard so much on the deep flavors developed from sourdough bread but have not tasted any other sourdough bread to know what to expect from mine. Is there anyway to get or buy some dehydrated starter from you :)? Tks so much.
My starter is not very acidic at all. It does get acidic when I leave it unfed, but as soon as I feed it, it just smells sweet and the breads that I bake have a slight tang, but nothing crazy.
I may have some laying around. Where do you live?
@@Foodgeek I am from Singapore.
Hi Sune, I followed your recipe today for Tangzhong sourdough, the dough is now resting overnight in banettons in the fridge. I couldn't understand why you call it high hydration because it didn't seem wet at all to me. So I checked the written recipe and noticed that in the ingredients it says 377g water, but in the method it says add 277g water (which is what I did). I only noticed the different amounts when it was much too late to add more water. It's a bit disappointing, these two loaves will probably be alright but not as good as they would have been with more hydration.
Hi Lynne, I had a look at the recipe and in the method it says: "3. Add 377g of water to the bowl." under the "Autolyse" section. I cannot find 277g anywhere on that page. Where are you looking?
@@Foodgeek Hi Sune, thanks for your reply. I copied and saved the recipe from the link above when you first posted the video. I see there is another response from someone a month ago saying the same thing I said and you responded that you would change it, which you must have done because looking at the recipe now I see it has changed. I think my loaves will be OK, I will tell you tomorrow, and I'll give the Tangzhong method another try soon. Keep doing the videos, they are really good. Best wishes.
Lynne Horwitz Ah, that explains it. I'm sure your bread will be delicious none the less. Sorry for the mess :)
@@Foodgeek hi again Sune, my loaves came out fine, just not an open crumb.
Hi Sune. I followed your instruction to made 85% hydration Tangzhong sourdough bread. The process is fluent, windowpane is obvious and few bubbles appear after four times coil fold, though the dough is sticky at the steps of preshape and shape. The problem is occurred at the final proof. After removing the dough into the banneton and retarded to fridge for 24h, the dough seems no ferment at all. Though the final loaf is flat and dense crust, the crum is extremely soft and delicious. Could you give some advice to improve the fermentation efficiency for the final proof. Thanks a lot.
How much did the dough grow during bulk? 😊
@@Foodgeek Around 1.5 times.
I don't have a microwave. Can this be done on the stove top? I'm assuming yes.
Absolutely. It's like you'd do for choux pastry. Just make sure it's heated to 65C/149F over medium low heat. Stir all the time :)
I do that and it works better for me than tweeting the microwave
I re-calculated the weights to be easier to understand, with rounding-tweaks to make proportions easier:
100% flour, of which 5% is for water roux, and 15% is for levaener (out of which 1/3 is starter and 2/3 flour), and 80% is for dough.
80% of flour is water, of which 20% of flour is water for water roux and 10% for leveler, and 50% for dough.
*I never understood why recipes weren't written like this.* _Why needlessly overcomplicate things?_
Wish I watched this before I started my 85% sourdough today. This will be my highest hydration yet. It's going ok so far but I think tangzhong would have helped. Maybe next time! Was looking at your calculator and I think the taghazaog water % listed in the recipe is off. When adding up the % of waters it doesn't come up to 100%. The flour % looks correct when I add those up they come to 100%. Looking at this recipe you made: fgbc.dk/7vr. 71.4% + 17.9% != 100% like I think it should. Or am I looking at it wrong?
It’s called baker’s percentage, “100%” is whatever the weight of all the flour in the recipe comes to and everything is expressed as a % of that.
very complicated recepy. I.m using regularly Tangzhong (water/flour mix) for making pastry/rolls. Also, the water/flour mix should be heated up on stove stirring and about 65 Celsius.......
This isn't a pastry or roll though. It's a sourdough bread :)
Tangzhong can be heated in a microwave, it does not have to be a stove. The temperature is the important factor here, to get the starches to gelatinize :)
@@Foodgeek yes I know, is just not everyone is using microwave, my family and friends do not. So, it is better to provide both options. The outcome is excellent, i will look your other videos and will comment. thank you for quick reply..
I am having trouble with gluten structure with whole grain wheat. I was trying to make things easy by skipping the initial kneadings like some of your vids with no luck yet.
I just switched to fine ground whole grain wheat which is a little better. I've tried many many strech and folds with no luck. Im guessing the initial kneading is important in whole grain wheat sourdough... ?
My idea was to switch to wetter dough to make the initial kneading easier. I dont have much space to work on a countertop.
This looks pretty satisfying to do...
How to Mix Wet Dough (Rubaud Method)
ruclips.net/video/zgz0oAhgwyg/видео.html
Too much whole grain will inhibit the gluten development. I'd usually not recommend more than 30% whole grain if you are making a free standing loaf.
I have an experiment coming out in the future where I bake different ratios of whole grain to bread flour to see how it affects the dough and final loaf :)
@@Foodgeek I would love to see that video! Very high hydration and WW was a total fail.
"Anita's" is the main organic flour supplier in Canada
I picked up a small bag of all purpose, but I would love a second opinion between these two flours. Both are Enriched.
Unbleached All Purpose Flour "high gluten strength"
anitasorganic.com/product/all-purpose-white-flour/
Flour Type 00 "elastic texture"
anitasorganic.com/product/pizza-pasta-flour/
Tang Zhong can’t be used on same day. It must be mature before used
It's not in any recipe I've read. How is it made then? :)
The way u made is OK, but need at least 24 hours to be mature to use. The flavour will change.
现代手作天然麵包Adeline’s Modernist Bread All right. I will try that next time 😊
@@adelinesmodernistbread2439 Not that I've heard of too.... I usually prep the TZ just before I get all ingredients ready for the dough.... so long the TZ cools down.... 😊😊😊
That's the only way I've heard of too, but I may do an experiment video where I compare the regular method with the "aged" version :)