The Birth of the Japanese RPG | Design Icons
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- Опубликовано: 1 июн 2024
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There's only one genre that we divide down strict geographical lines: the RPG. But western RPGs and Japanese RPGs have way more in common than you might first realise.
Visually accessible version - • Visual Accessibility V...
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Sources
[1] Dungeons & Dragons Single Volume Edition | D&D Rulebook
img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/imag...
[2] Interview with the creators of dnd (PLATO) | RPG Fanatic
web.archive.org/web/201310270...
[3] The Crowther and Woods Colossal Cave Adventure game | Rick Adams
rickadams.org/adventure/a_hist...
[4] Going Rogue with Glenn Wichman | The Spelunky Showlike
thespelunkyshowlike.libsyn.co...
[5] Comment on Sir-tech Canada Releases Wizardry 8 | Slashdot
games.slashdot.org/comments.p...
[6] How the Ultima Trilogy Took a Genre from Tabletop to Hi-Tech | USgamer
www.usgamer.net/articles/how-...
[7] Interview with Michael Cranford, creator of Bard's Tale | Lemon 64
www.lemon64.com/forum/viewtop...
[8] Retrospective Interview: Jon Van Caneghem on Might and Magic | RPG Codex
rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=8379
[9] Retro Gamer 34 | Archived at Mod DB
www.moddb.com/games/dungeon-m...
[10] Arena - Behind the Scenes | Elder Scrolls
web.archive.org/web/200712110...
[11] to [34] - Please see pinned comment for full sources...
Find out more
CRPG Addict | Blogspot
crpgaddict.blogspot.com/p/inde...
In The Time Of PLATO | Illinois Alumni
uiaa.org/2010/09/10/in-the-ti...
The Apple II Abroad / Clones | Apple II History
apple2history.org/history/ah12/
Translation of a Japanese interview with Robert Woodhead | RPG Codex
rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/t...
How Wizardry Cast Story Aside in Favor of Casting Spells | USgamer
www.usgamer.net/articles/hist...
The forgotten origins of JRPGs on the PC | PC Gamer
www.pcgamer.com/the-forgotten...
1982-1987 - The Birth of Japanese RPGs, re-told in 15 Games | Gamasutra
www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Felip...
Enix Origins: The Story Behind Dragon Quest | Medium
/ the-story-behind-drago...
25 Years Of Dragon Quest: An Interview With Yuji Horii | Gamasutra
www.gamasutra.com/view/featur...
Dragon Quest - 30th Anniversary NHK Special | Shmuplations on RUclips
• Video
Credits
Thumbnail Image licensed from Adobe Stock
Fastfall by Lifeformed used under CC BY-NC-SA 3.0 license
Other Music by Lee Rosevere (leerosevere.bandcamp.com)
Further credits - pastebin.com/xbitqixF
Contribute translated subtitles - amara.org/v/C3BDp/ 
Игры
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Hey! Two things.
Based on feedback that some users found the effects hard to watch, I've created an unlisted visual accessible version that has reduced motion and colour bleed - ruclips.net/video/hg70NfLNjF4/видео.html
Also, the sources list was way too long for RUclips's tiny descriptions, so it carries on in this comment.
[11] A former mentor recalls the early career of Satoru Iwata | Gamasutra
www.gamasutra.com/view/news/254169/A_former_mentor_recalls_the_early_career_of_Satoru_Iwata.php
[12] Computer Gaming World September 1985 | Archived at CGW Museum
www.cgwmuseum.org/galleries/issues/cgw_5.4.pdf
[13] Yoshio Kiya - 1987 Developer Interview | Shmuplations
shmuplations.com/yoshiokiya/
[14] Zelda no Video History of Zelda Documentary | RUclips
ruclips.net/video/sVMCaflcwSI/видео.html
[15] The Possibilities of Adventure Games | Shmuplations
shmuplations.com/adventuregames/
[16] The Four Video Games That Shaped Metal Gear Creator Hideo Kojima | Kotaku
kotaku.com/the-four-video-games-that-shaped-metal-gear-creator-hid-5847114
[17] Yuji Horii Talks About Making Dragon Quest XI And The Origins Behind The Series | Forbes
www.forbes.com/sites/olliebarder/2018/03/28/yuji-horii-talks-about-making-dragon-quest-xi-and-the-origins-behind-the-series/
[18] Koichi Nakamura Interview: On the Birth of the Console RPG | 1UP
www.webcitation.org/6O7eoBomV?url=www.1up.com/features/koichi-nakamura-interview-console-rpg
[19] I am Error | The MIT Press
mitpress.mit.edu/books/i-am-error
[20] How Dragon Quest's Creator Invented JRPGs: An Hour With Yuji Horii | IGN
www.ign.com/articles/2018/08/29/how-dragon-quests-creator-invented-jrpgs-an-hour-with-yuji-horii
[21] Dragon Quest Creator Sheds Light On The Inspiration For The Slime | MTV Multiplayer
web.archive.org/web/20100712234824/multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2010/07/09/dragon-quest-creator-sheds-light-on-the-creation-of-the-slime/
[22] The Dragon Invasion | Medium
medium.com/the-magazine/the-dragon-invasion-96a785fb4a7b
[23] How Dragon Quest Spawned an Urban Myth | IGN on RUclips
ruclips.net/video/xykoyUH2HJo/видео.html
[24] Sakaguchi discusses the development of Final Fantasy | Develop
web.archive.org/web/20130310043644/www.develop-online.net/news/28960/Sakaguchi-discusses-the-development-of-Final-Fantasy
[25] Yuji Naja Talks the Beginning of Phantasy Star | Japanese Nintendo
japanesenintendo.com/2017/05/05/yuji-naka-talks-the-beginning-of-phantasy-star/
[26] Interview with Shin Megami Tensei IMAGINE | 4Gamer Net
www.4gamer.net/games/017/G001723/20091017002/
[27] Akitoshi Kawazu on the origins of SaGa's insanity | Retronauts
web.archive.org/web/20190819184025/retronauts.com/article/670/akitoshi-kawazu-on-the-reasoning-behind-sagas-insanity
[28] Edge Issue 301 | Reported at Nintendo Everything
nintendoeverything.com/square-enix-on-why-dragon-quest-hasnt-been-as-popular-as-final-fantasy-in-the-west-keeping-the-series-fresh/
[29] Shigesato Ito visits Arino Kacho's Challenge Room | 1101
www.1101.com/gccxmother/en/
[30] Dungeons & Dragons in Japan | TSR Archive
www.tsrarchive.com/in/jp/jp.html
[31] Akitoshi Kawazu on the origins of SaGa's insanity | Retronauts
web.archive.org/web/20190819184025/retronauts.com/article/670/akitoshi-kawazu-on-the-reasoning-behind-sagas-insanity
[32] Xevious - Developer Interview Collection | Shmuplations
shmuplations.com/xevious/
[33] Koichi Nakamura Interview: On the Birth of the Console RPG | 1UP
www.webcitation.org/6O7eoBomV?url=www.1up.com/features/koichi-nakamura-interview-console-rpg
[34] Sir-Tech - Wizardry Interview | RPG Codex
rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/translation-of-a-japanese-interview-with-robert-woodhead.109768/
Thanks for really putting in the effort for these videos
O.o
Nicevideo
Make a desing icons of gran turismo
Some of the best RUclips content out there
woow man this vid is amazing, wish it was 1h long, we need more of this type of vid on the internet
"So it's all dungeons and dragons?"
(cocks gun) "always has been"
"After all this time?"
"Always"
Dragons all the way down
I wish I had a trophy so I could hand it to you.
dnd is also the sister of chess making rpgs chesses nephews.
@@FisherStAmour-xl4qz More like D&D is the great grand nephew of Chess. When you dig back through history, you can find the concepts that D&D codified scattered throughout Professional war gaming (aka strategy training).
You can turn chess itself into a Role-playing Game. By assigning personalities and motivations to each of the pieces, and having them act on those instead of in accord with some grand master's wishes. Which is actually an interesting exercise in Agent design. With implications for the developing genre of "Auto-Chess" games.
The closest thing to "RPG vs JRPG" would probably be "cartoons vs anime." They are described as regional differences, but are more accurately distinct as artistic movements within the same medium
Well, I think the difference between anime and cartoon are way more distinctive than RPG's and JRPG's... Yeah, there are a few exceptions, but for the most part, it is clear whether it's a western cartoon or an anime.
That would leave shows like Avatar: The Last Airbender in an awkward spot though... Avatar was made in a Japanese style which is often considered to be anime. This, however, is countered by the fact that it's an American show. There's no real use to trying to define artistic concepts us humans have made up ourselves since creativity often asks you to blur the lines inbetween.
@@rickvanleeuwen9589 There are also non-Japanese JRPGs, like Anachronox and now numerous indie titles incl Undertale, and Japanese WRPGs, like Dragon's Dogma.
@@kintrix007 It's accurate.
that's... ehhh. I'm not sure if that's accurate.
Cartoon broadly describes any animation that isn't stop motion. It's essentially just a genre of animation, and carries no real connotation of it's seeming or quality (other than in North America cartoons are largely associated with children's entertainment)
Anime is a very specific technology (in the academic sense of the word). It's a visual language that levies specific, codified visual abstractions paired with a lot of culturally specific visual shorthand and cultural references, also largely codified. This works as a predefined visual language that DRASTICALLY reduces the work involved to produce content that is competently enough made for broad consumer consumption.
Anime budgets tend to be only 5-10% those of more common cartoons made in the West because so, so many corners are cut, tricks and hacks are employed by default. Emotional displays replaced by codified glyphs, faces and body shapes standardized for ease of animation with characters separated by loud outfits and hair instead, visual fidelity reduced to barebones to rely on abstraction instead of rendering, food clothes and most aspects of setting reverted to, again largely codified, common Japanese cultural tropes so they are instantly recognizable and imagery/themes can be conveyed easily, animated backgrounds, mis en scene, long pauses with no secondary actions, and stylized often abstracted formalist sequences are employed to DRASTICALLY reduce the number of frames that need to be animated. Realism (in the cinematographic sense) basically doesn't exist in anime, because anything that requires visual fidelity is broadly too expensive to produce where anime is concerned.
To be fair, that definition means the rare (and much lauded) higher budget anime movies like Akira or Ghost in the Shell, which stick to some of these stylistic conceits but abandon quite a few of the more functional ones, actually sticking to realism (again, in film terms) could be argued NOT to be anime. I'd consider that the case, though most people would disagree.
Ha! I did the cover painting for Ultima, and did that Lion Rampant for the startup screen on an Apple II graphics tablet! The tablet was so sensitive that power spikes from the outlet caused actual spikes in the line I was trying to draw.
That's so cool!
amazing work, man.
@@simonwilliamson3684 Thanks! Lotta stories from the old Origin days.
@@simonwilliamson3684 I have a website, www.denisloubet.com where there's a gallery of stuff. More recent stuff is on deviantart.
@@DenisLoubet I would love to read them if you ever end up writing them down
The clicking sound whenever you show those specific slides is so satisfying for some reason
And the music too
@@johntucan6757 It's just the sound of a projector switching slides. Fallout uses it too, but it's not "from" there.
Its nostalgic, a slide projector sounds just like that when switching slides. I believe i heard the reel turning also haha
Reference to Fallout, a famous western RPG.
Sumit Kumar it may also just be a imitating a slide projector for an old-timey feel.
This man just described the origins of like 80% of all existing video games today
As a lover of Western and JRPGs, this was a delightful watch.
Absolutely! And here is a nice, deeper-dive, companion piece:
ruclips.net/video/sglKS-HfZMw/видео.html
either "this was a delight to watch" or "this was delightful to watch" ReEEEEeEEEEEE
Except that he was wrong stating JRPG's were primarily made for consoles. This guy clearly has no PC88 or PC98. The OVERWHELMING majority of RPG's were for computers and the console games were many times, just a miserable port. (I'm talking to YOU, Hydlyde!) They also paved the way for Eroge and Sci-Fi in RPG's, WAAAAY before NES games like Mother. I feel like just having owned an NES makes you dumber...
AmstradExin Huh?
@@AmstradExin Even if that is true, I feel like what he's saying still rings true when it comes to what we see as the *genre* of JRPG today.
And if you're talking about RPGs from Japan, that's a different story. I personally feel that JRPG and WRPG is more of a genre label at this point than anything to do with regions.
When GameInformer did one of their always hyperbolic lists; "Top 100 RPGs of All Time", I officially consider it the last thing they have done correctly when, at the end of the list, they had a single, full-page entry:
#0: Dungeons & Dragons
I dunno why, but I found that really sweet.
I still have that issue!
There are much better tabletop RPGs than DND though. It was the first, but it definitely isn't the best.
I use to think of the difference as, J-RPGs are more about telling a particular story and the rpg mechanics are there more for the feeling of getting stronger and character growth than anything else, while in W-RPGs they are there as a means for player expression and exploration. Great vid, keep it up!
More or less that's the mould.
I always see it as JRPGs capture the feeling of retelling or recalling a p&p rpg adventure while WRPGs capture the feeling of playing a one on one session with the master in a p&p rpg
@@karibui494 That's a nice way of putting it, I like it.
Begs the question of where the Witcher series falls, especially Witcher 3.
@@WoodrowSkillson I wouldn't know honestly, I have not played TW3, but it seems like a complicated one in that sense.
I had the TRS-80 growing up, and I still have to get my Dungeons of Daggorath fix every few years. That game had the same wireframe look as a lot of the others, but also had a unique system in which you constantly regenerated HP, but you never actually got to see what your HP was, because it was indicated by a heart beating. The faster the heartbeat, the closer you were to death. But if you just stood still and waited, it would slow down again. Further complicating matters was the fact that almost everything you did would cause a tiny bit of "exhaustion damage" to you, like walking or swinging a weapon, and heavier weapons caused more damage. If you swung a weapon too many times in a row, you could make yourself faint, and your vision would slowly die out, then slowly come back as you woke up again, possibly with a monster in front of you. Casting spells caused a huge amount of damage, so you would have to run away and rest to recover after doing it. It did also have an invisible experience system, so that you got stronger as you progressed along. It was so ahead of its time.
I also remember playing a game that was straight up called "Dungeons And Dragons" on a computer called the Aquarius. Everything in that game (shields, weapons, monsters) showed up in colors of increasing power (Red < Yellow < Purple < White). The way Persona 5 Royal handled boosts from Baton Pass by changing the numbers to red and then yellow reminded me of it so much. I actually literally wonder how many people in the world even made that connection between these two specific games, 'cause if I had to bet, it's probably less than 100. Not exactly a lot of 40+'ers out there playing P5R I would imagine.
@@WestefordVT Yeah equipment rarity's pretty common, lol. Definitely not in just two games.
Such a fascinating series! I love seeing this chain of inspiration, which continues today. Exciting to think about what games nowadays are inspiring devs to make the next masterpieces! It's a beautiful never-ending story, of creatives passing on the torch from generation to generation. Superb video Mark!
My dude.. can you make a unity tutorial on how make a 2D pinball game, i am trying to make when the flipper hit the ball, the ball go up to the direction it supposed to..
(the ball just attached with simple rigidbody 2d)
but it's dissapointing, because the force is so weak when 2 collider hit each other.. (i am just attaching a default 2D collider to the flipper and the ball)
So trying to make it with a bouncier ball using material and it still to weak, the ball won't go up like it lack of force when the flipper hit it..
oh yeah btw for the flipper i am using quaterion.euler (sorry for spelling mistake)
so can you make or point to one of your tutorial about adding force when 2 object collide each other..
thank you, love your tutorials man..
Well said
I like how Mark jumps deep into the topic, until he fully discovers everything and describes that in video with simple as possible words. Great Video
Ultima and Wizardry are the two most forgotten but important game franchises of all time. It's as if the west had it's own Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy, but forgot.
We didn't forget. We just didn't see a reason to keep wanking the same franchise for 30 years when new IPs building on the foundations of those two was an option.
Ultima kept going strong till the late 90s. It was only eventually felled by WoW. I would not count it as forgotten.
It turns out that Ultima Online is still a thing 23 years later and counting, impressive to say the least. Owned by EA now, of course.
@@poika22 and recent franchise-milking sequels that get more and more rotten with each new release show why we probably shouldn't
Though on the other hand, Mario and the others show how to _embrace_ the same IP with fresh ideas
@@revimfadli4666 Yeah but how representative is Mario of the gaming industry in general? How many Marios is there for every Assassin's Creed 17 or whatever the Japanese are making?
I've never been the biggest RPG fan, but I recently played the first Dragon Quest game and most of the second one (the NES originals, not remakes), and I found that they've aged WAY better than I expected. The grinding can be a bit much, but the battles go by quickly, and the quest design is REALLY good. The games don't hold your hand, but they let you explore and talk to all the NPCs for hints on what items you need and where exactly to find them, instead of making you look up a guide (or BUY one back then) to learn which random bush to burn like SOME games I know. I'd love to see you do a Boss Keys on the series someday.
Daniel Uranga you should play DQIII next. Not only is it one of the best JRPGs ever made, but also one of the most rewarding experiences if played after the first 2 games.
I would love if you do a GMTK video on rpg design, western or japanese. I feel like, even if its one of the most popular video game genres, most people fall in the impresion that rpgs are all about the story, and ignore the careful balancing of all the rpg elements.
Rpg design has come a long way since the 80's, where grinding was mandatory and now acts more like a difficulty slider, you can push yourself and understand the combat mechanics to win, or you can go back and grind more levels, lowering the difficulty. Everyone can beat an rpg if they spend enough time in it. And i think thats one of the biggest strenghts of the genre.
@Bob Bobbertson most badly designed rpgs are that way, i agree. But modern rpgs rarely ever require leveling up more than necessary in normal gameplay. More rpgs today than ever can be beaten with level 1. But still they are difficult to distinguish since grinding is always the easier solution, most people don't even look at what items they can use in battle or the full list of spells.
But thats the beauty of it in my opinion, people that are not interested in improving skill or strategy can still put the effort of gaining more levels, so its a rewarding experience for everyone that plays through it.
Not only is it one of the most popular genres, but it is so diverse, it would be insanely hard to make one design video on it.
There's a really good GDC talk about proper attribute tuning in RPGs (specifically in Pillars of Eternity) given by Josh Sawyer, the designer of PoE, Fallout New Vegas and Icewind Dale. It taught me a lot about attribute systems and such. I know it's very specific but maybe it interests you
I hate the balancing in the story.
"OMG you are a hero, the last Chosen One. Only you can save the world from doom!
-"Errr ok"
"Here is a wooden sword. Go practice by hitting that tree."
Diego G yeah agreed, hell, i’d say even older dragon quest games were designed this way back on the NES & SNES! i finished 4 & 5 last year & realised one of my most hated elements - random encounters - serve a beautiful purpose in a well-designed rpg: pacing out the right amount of encounters for the average amount of steps you’ll take to get to your destination, to give you just enough experience points so that you’re at the ideal level to face the boss with just the right amount of tension & difficulty
Ah it's great to see Design Icons again after so long, and this was another great one for me! Discovering the 'bloodlines' of various games and genres is something I only know the most popular stories about, so a comprehensive video like this is really nice to broaden that knowledge. :D
How did you post this before the video was
@@pixellove1773 must be because of time zone. Gmtk's comment is 11 hrs old lol
It's patreon early access benefits!
12:27
@@penttikoivuniemi2146 why did you post a timecode?
I was so disappointed when I first started getting into JRPGs because I was expecting something like the Western RPGs I was used to.
I like them, but I was definitely confused about why they didn't include any of the features I considered central to Western RPGs (character creation, extensive dialogue options, branching choices in the narrative etc.)
This definitely helped me understand the history of why that is, and it makes a lot of sense that a lot of the differences stemmed from hardware restrictions with consoles!
I'm a massive fan of western RPGs but I just can't get into JRPGs at all. I tried a couple but the linearity of the story and the frequency of cutscenes just infuriates me. Dialogue should either be interactive or minimalistic, but most JRPGs have dozens of quirky irrelevant chatter you have to click through, and I just can't bring myself to care about any of it.
@@JarlFrank I have the opposite problem: western RPGs are so open ended with so little direction, I always end up clueless as for what to do next within an hour of starting. JRPGs have clearly defined goals to meet, and memorable characters to interact with.
I look at JRPGs the same way I look at books, except I get to be part of the story. Reading doesn't bother me at all.
I should add that I'm not against open-endedness in games, but you gotta give me a reason to want to explore your world before you just drop me in it with no direction. Games like The Elder Scrolls and Fallout (both Bethesda, I know) hardly give you any kind of setup before expecting you to explore a giant, good looking but pretty empty world until you either fumble into a quest, or into some high level monsters that stomp you. They often focus on trying to start you out as a regular random Joe or Jane. This can be a great storytelling device but it often just results in early quests being bland and uninteresting. I used to watch my dad play both (at the time, Morrowind/Oblivion and Fallout 3/New Vegas) and they looked fun but playing them myself I got bored before I got to anything interesting. I even played TES4 all the way through the first gate to oblivion dungeon but it felt so insignificant I just didn't see any reason to continue.
I have a hard time getting into a lot of western RPGs, because from playing mostly JRPGs I've come to expect the game to give me characters to relate to and get to know, not characters I have to create from scratch and _be_. It makes sense that this "blank slate for customization" type of character comes directly from pen-and-paper, where you really do create everything about your character and you play out all of their actions.
My eyes also tend to glaze over if I'm presented with too many customization menus at once, which is also a thing with pen-and-paper rulesets. With JRPGs you tend to unlock things automatically as you get more powerful, with customization options being unlocked but always within the confines of the character class (you're still playing the character you were given, not totally making it up as you go along).
I mean, there's definitely tons of storytelling and adventuring potential within western-style RPGs, but for me personally I'd prefer to meet some characters and be taken along for a journey :)
@@Orynae Yeah that's exactly why I can't get into JRPGs at all. It feels limited an constraining, I don't want to play some pre-defined character I can't change, I want to make my own guy or girl and develop all the skills I want, and make dialogue choices I want. I can't get invested in the story of a game if I can't actively take part in it, JRPGs only make me a passive observer.
It would've been nice to have a little more on Megami Tensei 1987 (leading to Shin Megami Tensei and Persona) which is probably Japan's only attempt to implement DnD's alignment system with choices leading to Chaos/Law endings. It took first person maze exploring from Wizardry. It was also the origin of the monster catching genre where you recruit demons into your team by conversing with them, which inspired Pokemon, and monster catching elements in Dragon Quest.
Yeah, MT/SMT did a lot of things early on.
He mentions Digital Devil Story.
@@GJDZ02 Ah it was such a passing remark I missed it lol. I think MT introduces a lot to the industry, so it would've been nice to have more on it.
I think this is supposed to serve as an introduction into a series on role playing games moving forward.
@@icarus212001 I think the monster catching genre is a pretty important sub sector of the RPG genre, just as much as Rogue which had a segment. Pokemon is literally the highest grossing video game series of all time. And with every JRPG game trying to introduce elements of it, it deserves a mention. Even Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest and Kingdom Hearts has dabbled in monster catching, and it's making a resurgence in games like TemTem. MT deserves credit for starting that.
But just most of all, it's just interesting that MT is Japan's only attempt to emulate the DnD alignment system and has been developing it ever since while morality systems in other games, Japanese and Western, all seem pretty black and white.
Saturday is a school day in Japan assuming Persona hasn't lied to me.
It differs from region to region, I think. As far as I know, Saturday school is slowly becoming less of a thing.
It really is a more cross-referencing history then I already knew..
12:27 Oh crap, what have you done? Don't you know every time you mention that game the vampires compel people to re-install it? You've got to break the cycle of mental domination!
The good thing about playing an RPG with vampires is that even if you suck you're doing a good job and get experience for it.
tImE tO rE-iNsTaL
Not as bad as mentioning.... DEUS EX.
@@GreyWolfLeaderTW Deus Ex, the TV Tropes of gaming.
Too late. The Nosferatu overheard you, and now the Camarilla will find out!
I think is kind of poetic that the History of this genre is such as itself. RPG as a genre is about creating one's own stories and fun. Many different paths
When I saw the title of this video, I literally screamed "YES!" in my head. I'm so glad you delved into RPGs. They are my favorite video game genre.
RPGs began with D&D and later the Japanese took it to a wholly separate level of sophistication with their characteristic obsession with detail and striving for perfection. I also think one of the hallmarks of JRPG are the beautiful music.
I love how you didn’t just assume everyone knew what dnd was and gave a small overview
And thats a good thing
Yeah. That's a good thing. For example, I'm from southeast asia. And DnD is barely known here.
It's a shame people don't count this as a part of history.
We do
@@matttheamerican3766 just seeing those old games that inspired the games that I was inspired from, makes me want to tip my hat
Cuz it's Japan
Not particularly relevant, but this is an absolutely gorgeous thumbnail
I sense a fellow dice goblin
Generally speaking, Western RPGs tried to recreate a tabletop RPG's mechanics, whereas JRPGs tried to recreate a tabletop RPG's adventure.
PS. Tabletop RPGs is why videogame RPGs tend to have parties of 4 (even many Western ones).
Other way around. So called 'jrpgs' carry just the tabletop wargame inspired mechanics and none of the roleplaying where as Dnd inspired roleplaying games attempt to recreate the experience of a Dnd adventure including the reactivity and roleplaying.
I said 'dnd inspired' because many roleplaying games are not Dnd knockoffs.
As he said in the video, Dragon Quest started the simplification process and the trend stuck.
Parties of 4 has more to do with controller ports. Single player PC rpgs have always had a wide variety of party sizes.
Thank you for making content like this. I cannot express enough how helpful this is for me. I love learning this stuff, but I have difficulty reading about it all due to dyslexia and other factors. So having this history compiled and presented in such a beautiful way means the world to me.
One of the big differences between the JRPG and WRPG styles, to me at least, has always been that JRPGs tend to have a great emphasis on group dynamics and forming a party, while WRPGs tend to focus on a singular individual. The WRPG individual may have companions who come and go, and the JRPG party may have a clear main character, but there's a clear tonal and mechanical distinction.
I wonder if anyone can isolate the specific game(s) where that distinction kicked in? Per this video, it seems like that might have evolved out of JRPGs focusing on telling a singular narrative, while WRPGs focused on trying to recreate the generative and dynamic experience of playing with a DM. If your goal is to tell a clear and singular story, then you need someone for your main character to talk to. Hence, a JRPG party. If your goal is to recreate the feeling of generative gameplay -- well, you're working in a mostly single-player medium if you're designing early computer games, unlike DnD, so you naturally would focus the campaign around the singular character the player is inhabiting. Hence, the WRPG individualism. That's before you even get into much broader socio-cultural arguments about the US's rugged individualism versus Japanese self-conceptions. I'm nowhere near enough of an expert on Japanese culture to speak with any authority to whether their culture has a greater emphasis on group dynamics, but Americans of course have a strong ethos of individuality.
Anyway, it's an interesting aspect of the difference between the two styles.
This comment reminded me of a video by Literature Devil called "Western vs. Eastern Storytelling" which made a similar observation about the differences between story structure in literature between the East and West. If you haven't seen the video before, I recommend checking it out.
Sure, the modern first-person western console RPG is all about one hero, but Wizardry and Ultima always had partys. Ultima's party in particular was super important for the story. All the isometric top-down RPGs like Baldurs Gate also have partys.
None of the Might & Magic games I've played put any focus on a particular "main character", your party as a whole was the "main character"
What is this disrespect with Bioware?
@@YukiDelValle Very good point, I apologize for the Bioware erasure
This was one of my favorite of your videos. I love that there isn’t one simple answer but loads of varying influences. You can really see the work you put into each of your videos and they come out so in depth and thought provoking.
I appreciate what you do!
The amount of research and careful editing that went into this video is just breathtaking. Your content is so thoughtful and well rendered, from the strong script, to the great narration, to the sound-effects, to the visuals and editing that tie up the whole thing!! :) great work, Mark--your essays are always a good use of my time
_Game Maker's Toolkit_ continues to inspire my writing for tabletop RPGs, so this was a real treat. Another excellent overview and looking forward to seeing ore in the ICON series.
When talking about the difference between JRPGs and WRPGs, I think it's important to understand the deep cultural differences between the two regions.
In particular the western ideals of personal freedom, individual excellence, and the "hero worship" (and desire to emulate or "follow in the footsteps") of specific humans who rose up to become heroes. The intensity of these ideals vary from culture to culture in the west, but ESPECIALLY in America (and Britain) you can use our cultural stories generally focus on specific larger than life figures. John Henry, Robin Hood, Paul Bunyan, King Arthur, etc. Even in real life we tend to think especially in terms of individuals. George Washington won the American Revolution, Winston Churchill won the second world war, Abraham Lincoln ended slavery, etc.
Contrast this with the traditional Japanese ideals of putting the group before the self, accepting your place, and suffering in silence. Most traditional Japanese stories feature nameless humans being punished or rewarded, either by fate or otherworldly forces, for going against or upholding these ideals. When there ARE people acting in a larger-than-life heroic fashion or individuals with specific names, they're almost always of supernatural origin (such as Momotaro who was born from a peach or Kaguya-hime who came from the moon).
I think this goes a long way towards explaining the HUGE divide between "western" and "Japanese" RPGs. Western RPGs are all about self expression. You yourself are becoming the hero of this story, and that involves making a character to your own specifications (even today most big JRPGs don't have character creation or even customization) and lots of dialog options that let you express yourself and ideally even influence the course of events or at least your relationships with other characters. In most western RPGs you are playing YOURSELF (or at the very least a character of your own design) as the hero in a fantasy story, that you are working with the devs to create and tell. Even a HEAVILY restricted western RPG in terms of the character you play, Mass Effect, affords a MASSIVE amount of player control over the character's personality, relationships, and the story.
Contrast again with JRPGs. You almost *NEVER* play as yourself. You might self-insert in the way you do with books, movies, or anime, but (for example) Cloud Strife is not you, and FFVII's story is not your story. Cloud is Cloud, and it is Cloud's story, and the devs are telling it to you. Even in a JRPG with a blank slate hero like DQXI or Persona 5 you can't even change your character's basic outfit or hairstyle. Even a JRPG with TONS of freedom of personal choice, like Persona 5 where you have full freedom over who you spend time with (and even date), doesn't actually really let you dictate the course of those relationships, much less that of the main story. Because your character isn't intended to be you and the story is theirs, not yours.
I think these differing cultural outlooks, along with as you said the simplistic roots of the genre in the region due to it mostly starting from (and sticking to) consoles, does most of the heavily lifting of explaining not just what the differences are but why they exist.
This is a great point. I think the huge wall of text might be too intimidating for people so maybe add a TL;DR at the beginning otherwise no one's going to read it
They way you describe western culture as "personal freedom, individual excellence" and Japanese culture as "accepting your place, and suffering in silence" is really...reductive.
@@andrewericdavison Well, it was a distillation of an idea, a summary. It was "reduced" so he could get to core thesis. There's only so much you can put in a single comment after all.
@@andrewericdavison It's not that he is describing the whole of western or Japanese culture as such. He is comparing that specific aspect. And yes, it is still reductive but what else could you expect from one RUclips comment? It can't be the length of an essay afterall
@@andrewericdavison It is a bit reductive I admit, but as others have said I only have so much time and space to get my point across lol Just understand that I am not AT ALL passing judgement in either case, for or against. For example the idealization of "individual excellence" isn't inherently good (taken to it's extreme is how we get people like Donald Trump), and there can be nobility in "suffering in silence" (we call it "stoicism"). Also, note that in the case of Japan I specifically called them "TRADITIONAL Japanese values". Modern Japanese society is a complicated beast and things there are and have been changing, albeit slowly.
tl;dr understand that I'm using these terms in an academic/philosophical sense, and dont intend them as criticism or adulation of America/the west OR Japan, and we shouldn't have a problem. Of course I don't think this is all there is these cultures, in the same way that I don't think America is all about guns and racism or Japan is all about samurai and train gropers. And anyone who DOES think any of that doesn't really have a place in a conversation about culture OR game design.
Thanks Mark. This video took me into an area of history, and concepts I had little to no knowledge about. As always, I'm constantly impressed by the level of detail that goes into the research, writing and editing of these videos. A piece of RUclips gold! Already looking forward to the next one!
I really appreciate that you cite all your sources. I know it's an added headache to keep track of and implement during video editing, but it's appreciated. Your content is already entertaining and engaging, but it's even better to know that it's reputable.
Pokemon: Mystery Dungeon was my first introduction to roguelikes.
Same here!
"the DM dreams up a vivid world and storyline" as a DM, that's debatable
Guese that's what the books are for lol
This was such a wonderful journey through the tangled, intricate history of RPGs around the world. I consider the genre to be one of my absolute favorites, and I too like digging into its origins. But as always, you managed to surprise me several times before the video was over. Keep up the incredible work, and I look forward to the next entry in this series!
My jaw was on the floor almost this entire video. The connections!! Truly remarkable research, distillation, and editing, Mark!
Also really digging the consistent style each of the videos in this series has, that carries across the old games to articles and quotes and pictures.
Petition to bring back the "hi, I'm Mark brown" intro
and THIS.....
is Game Maker's Toolkit.
*cue GMTK logo
but... This isn't game maker's toolkit. They're different shows.
parafraceren
Come on, the whole channel comes under gmtk, and it's not as if he even gives the design icons intro to this.
He said "Hi, I'm Mark and this is GMTK"
He said "Hi, I'm Mark Brown and this is GMTK"
What we *need* is for him to say "Hi, I'm Mark and this is Brown"
i thought you abandoned design icons!
so good to see it back!
Well Mark, that was absolutely wonderful. The RPG genre as well as its estuaries and offshoots is one of my absolute favorites, and I'm so glad to know more about it. You are definitely my favorite discovery/info content creator, and I hope you never lose your passion for this stuff. Cheers mate!
This channel is one of if not the best channel for getting a professional inside video games, their mechanics, and their history. Well done and keep up the amazing work.
So the takeaway is that D&D is slowly taking over the world?
I'm ok with this future.
Praise Gygax, knower of all, progenitor of worlds.
@@KingBobXVI all praise thy lord gygax
It already has
Sons of Gygax is at every corner, watching all over you.
Something about looking at all the sources of modern games and seeing how much those developers did for this whole medium made me very emotional. Cried when he talked about Resident Evil. Great stuff!
Yeah I really don't understand why but I got chills every time he mentioned a franchise I knew
Soft. Weak.
...I have the silliest, biggest grin right now since you're discussing the shared roots of very early games, mainly RPGs. Love 'em to bits.
Your content is some of the best on RUclips. It's always well-edited, thoughtful and engaging.
"While you were out playing D&D, I mastered the Turn Based Combat."
Dnd is partially turn based tho
Wait, Resident Evil was originally supposed to be a JRPG?
Holy shit...
Not really, RE's spiritual predecessor was a JRPG styled adventure game called Sweet home, which took the exploration aspects and turned it into survival horror.
@@hemangchauhan2864 oh, I see
I though he was saying that they wanted to create a sequel to Sweet Home in 3D, but couldn't get it to work as a JRPG, so they turned it into a survival horror instead which then spawned RE
Thanks for the correction
@@cameronschiralli3569 ProJared did a playthrough of Sweet Home using a fan translation, it's a crazy game! Check out a few of his videos if you're interested in the game itself. Skip a few episodes in though, because Jared went in blind and the first few are him learning how the game works without any help and wuff
The Parasite Eve game had a combo of survival horror and rpg two genres mixed it looks cool its rare seeing more games like this ruclips.net/video/JwT7xbtc7R4/видео.html
@@cameronschiralli3569 "I though he was saying that they wanted to create a sequel to Sweet Home in 3D, but couldn't get it to work as a JRPG, so they turned it into a survival horror instead which then spawned RE"
It actually was that. If you read about early Resident Evil, it was meant to play pretty much like Sweet Home, and the four characters: Chris, Jill, Barry and Wesker were meant to be your party. They scrapped that idea as the game's concept evolved.
I don’t know why, but I hugely appreciate that page flipping animation you made at 5:30
Really glad you made this video, I wanted to see it done by someone for a long time. Design Icons is my favourite series of yours, so have this comment for the youtube algorithm.
I’m surprised he didn’t talk about how dungeons and dragons influenced record of lodoss war aka sword world which would come out from Roy Mizuno and some of those programmers who created the dragon quest series. It started with tabletop and moved on to a radio play on actual radio then to a sellable game scenario in stores. And eventually the anime series.
It was great to see a few shots of Phantasy Star in there. I remember it was $80 at Toys R Us when all the other games were like $50.
Phantasy Star IV was my first RPG and still one of my favorites. The music, the characters, the five party members at once without ever having to bench anyone because they left the party on their own making room for new party members in a way that fit into the narrative instead of just keeping them in some weird halfway state of being in the party for cutscenes but absent during combat.
Man, what a good game.
The franchise is still alive and kicking as an MMO, new game is supposed to come out this year (which would never come out)
Mark, you’re doing an amazing work! Definitely one of my favorite RUclips channels. Congratulations from Brazil and thank you for all the hard work and incredible videos.
this was such an interesting video! i've been conceptualizing what it would be like to make my own rpg, and this helped a lot with understanding the roots of the genre. informative and super interesting, great video as always.
"Ultima VII: Part 2: Serpent Isle" was the RPG that sucked me in. I would go to my friends place to play it everyday after school.
Wow, it's really amazing to look at history condensed like this, seeing on hindsight how traveling and technology shaped the games that we know today. Thanks for this video. :)
I’ve watched your videos for a while now, and love every one of them! Can’t wait to see more of your work!
Man, I am so glad I found your channel. These insights into the process and history of making games are so awesome. Amazing work, as always.
The whole time I was waiting for him to mention Dragon Quest.
Nah dnd better
Goe da Poe the above wasn’t an argument or statement
@@artemixzs And the comparison is weird anyway, one is a table top, the other a video game
The whole time? If you watched instead of waited you could have saved yourself 8 minutes.
lol same. I love Dragon Quest.
As an SMT fan I appreciate you mentioning Digital Devil Story
I'm transported through time with this video. Countless hours playing all these JRPG, and I didn't even get into DnD or other tabletop games.
I've enjoyed many videos from GMTK, but brings me back to my childhood.
Thank you.
Another amazing video about my favourite type of game. I love how much care and research you put into your videos and it truly inspires me and makes me think hard about how I can improve my own. Thank you so much for everything you do
The Dragon Quest Mystery Dungeon games aren't Mystery Dungeon spinoffs, Mystery Dungeon is a spin-off of Dragon Quest. The very first title in the Mystery Dungeon series is Torneko no Daibouken: Fushigi no Dungeon (Torneko's Grand Adventure: Mystery Dungeon) for the Super Famicom, focusing on the titular protagonist Torneko Taloon, an arms merchant from Dragon Quest IV.
Ehh, sort of I guess, so are Pokemon Mystery Dungeon games also DQ spin-offs?
@@enrymion9681 They may not be cannon to Dragon Quest lore, but as far as gameplay goes... Yes?
@@enrymion9681 I'm tempted to call them knockoffs, but they are official Mystery Dungeon games so...
@@ErdrickHero That's kind of silly, just because they slapped Dragon Quest characters on top of Rogue doesn't make all of their roguelikes Dragon Quest spin-offs especially when they then use other IPs same way and have a dedicated line of games that doesn't try to piggyback off of popularity of other games.
@@ErdrickHero Also are you saying that basically all roguelikes have Dragon Quest gameplay since Mystery Dungeon games are some of most faithful to Rogue roguelikes there are and thus anything roguelike is also Mystery Dungeon like?
7:51
"Together they made *DRAGONQUEST!* "
(trumpet prelude begins to play)
Great Video Mark!
Not only the topic but more on the Editing.
Man, I looove the way you put together such well composed and interesting histories and analyses! Thank you very much! These are a pleasure to watch.
Now if this video were 1.5 hours long, it would be an Ahoy production
So funny thing I learned just yesterday about dungeons and dragons in japan, early dungeons and dragons had orcs as pig people and kobolds as dog people (Though they looked more rat like to me.) and this was true everywhere early DnD however in japan there were certain series made where orcs were pig people and kobolds were dog people and because of that they are kept as pig people and dog people in japanese versions of later editions where as everywhere else they were changed into green people with tusks and lizard people.
Huh, I wonder if that inspired Ganon's design in the Zelda series as well. And yeah you can totally see that reflected in Dragon Quest, for example.
Awesome, this was so interesting!
Thank you and keep up with the Design Icon series, I simply love it!
I think this is my favorite video you’ve ever made. This was just such a delight to watch
"Meet Yuji Horii"
me: *shouts "YES"*
I had no idea that Mystery Dungeon was inspired by Rogue, excellent and interesting episode! It's incredible how influential that little Unix game was, probably the most influential open source video game ever.
The Mystery Dungeon series honestly helped keep the idea of Rogue alive for quite some time, with it bleeding back and forth between Japan and the West, the path between Rogue and "Roguelikes" is an interesting yet convoluted one.
@@totallycarbon2106 Yeah, he could honestly do a whole video JUST on the history of rougelikes/lites honestly, it's super interesting.
I've been following your channel for almost a year now as I'm making a simple rpg maker game. As basic as it is these continue to inspire me to not make it as half-assed as possible. This video really hits home. Thank you
Really nice video, listing all the source with good narration and interesting visualisation.
Whaaa?! Rogue-likes are named after an actual game called Rogue?
How did that never occur to me before?
Next you're gonna tell me metroidvanias were named after metroid.
@@gustavowadaslopes2479 pffft no. that'd be silly.
@@uupdown2 I'm gonna punch the next guy that tells me Soulsborne games are based on Dark Souls and Bloodborne.
@@gustavowadaslopes2479 Two games named Metroid and Castlevania.
It's a great game! Try it or perhaps NetHack, which is like 90% similar and even has an homage dungeon level that reverts to Rogue controls and graphics.
Great piece. I’ve always preferred JRPGs. I think it’s the strong narrative and strategy that I like along with the art style. I feel a bit lost in western RPGs. I love the world of Fallout for example but I find the lack of direction and quest-based progress doesn’t motivate me to continue the same way a strong plot does.
Can I just take a moment to thank you for making those videos? Clearly there was a lot of research behind it and even more editing and effort into this. So I'll like and subscribe and I want you to know my appreciation. Take good care, and thank you for the excellent content!!
Trivia: Makaitoshi SaGa (JP), Final Fantasy Legend (US) was based on the pen and paper RPG "Gamma World" also created by Gary Gygex. If you read the first and second editions you can see all the parallels. Viz. no xp. mixture of high tech and medieval, race instead of class based, monsters being variations of animals (mutants) rather than classic fantasy monsters, constant mutation in Espers/Mutant Humans randomly and Monsters/Full Mutants via Meat transformations, weapons and items having uses (battery charges), Poison (Radiation) being a primary Element along more typical Fire, Ice, Elec, direct items and skill parallels like the Power Suit (full body high tech armor), Electro Whip, Leech Life, Pryokinesis, Cyrokinesis, Warning, ESP, Psychic Blast.
Thank you for bringing back this series.
One thing that's important to note is the reason that D&D's influence in Japan waned. The Japanese were making a great number of extremely derivative works using D&D classes, monsters and concepts, such as the famed classic anime 'Record of Lodoss War', which was based on a D&D campaign. Eventually they got fed up and tried to sue en masse, but Japan's legal system ruled it all to be fair use. Enraged, they pulled all D&D products from Japan, which led to D20-based games waning while D6-based games gained in popularity. It's also why so many Japanese games are able to use D&D's trademarked names such as Bahamut and Tiamat without getting sued.
Bahamut and Tiamat aren't specifically from D&D, they're just from world mythologies. But yeah that's interesting, I'll have to read more about that some time. Always wondered what kind of Table Top RPG's they have in Japan.
@@svenbtb yeah but the real Bahamut and Tiamat aren't dragons, they're a Goddess of sea salt and a giant fish that supports a bull that supports the world. Those names used in the context of a platinum dragon and a multi-headed dragon are the depictions I'm referring to.
When did this take place?
Always look forward to your videos. I hate it when they end though ... knowing I've got to wait for the next one!
Nice video, quite hard to follow with all the names and games (most of aren't popular today). The last third of the video recaps well, it really help me understand where you were going.
It’s insane that the dungeons were 3D back then already and it took 20 years for gaming to get back to 3D
They weren't 3D. They were 2D images with a perspective that gave the illusion of 3D space.
@@poika22 going by the image's dimension, doesn't it apply to most, if not all games?
Though gameplay-wise, they might be 2D indeed
@@revimfadli4666 Well sure, you can argue that anything displayed on a flat monitor is "2D". But those dungeons weren't three-dimensional objects even within the game's logic, they were 2D sprites that had lines drawn on them to simulate a three-dimensional environment. Typically a three-dimensional game is defined by the objects having three dimensions in the game's internal logic and an engine capable of handling that. Crash Bandicoot on the PS1 is a 3D game because Crash is a three-dimensional mesh with measurements X, Y and Z dimensions. Mario 3 on the NES is not a 3D game even though the sprites have shadows drawn on them give the illusion of 3-dimensional objects.
@@poika22 indeed, but I thought you were talking about image dimension & perspective, rather than the gameplay space's dimension?
Agreed on them being separate though, some games even have 2D sprites but 3D spatial movement
@@revimfadli4666 Yeah the "3D" dungeons were represented by still photos with lines drawn to mimic a 3D perspective. It's like drawing a cube with a pen and paper and saying it's "3D".
YES. THIS IS THE TOPIC I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR FOREVER
As both a hobbyist in the history of Dungeons & Dragons through all its editions and in watching thoughtful analysis of videogames on RUclips, this is by far my favorite video you have ever done and I imagine I will be referencing it for research in the future. Thank you for catering to a cross-section of my narrow interests.
This was so validating for me to watch! I just wrote a research paper in college on this topic last year, as a part of a larger paper on Dragon Quest and its success as transmedia in Japan. I had never heard many people discuss this topic before, and it was so cool to even see you citing a few of the same sources I found!
Ryan O'Rourke that sounds super interesting. Is there a link where I can read that paper?
Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer - at least the DS remake(?)/version(?) of it is one of my favourite roguelikes, honestly.
And to this day I'm still never quite sure when I should call a game a JRPG or not.
A Person With A Name I define a JRPG as turn-based while a WRPG as more open.
@@JamesTheFoxeArt And yet the Tales franchise has never been turn-based since the debut on the SNES, and your definition excludes the more recent Final Fantasy games. There's clearly more to it.
Doesn't help that the cross influence between Western and Japanese styled RPGs over more than 40 years have dilated the definition even further.
I think the secret today is to see what kind of feelings the game is trying to give us. JRPGs want to tell a story, while WRPGs want to immerse us. JRPGs are narrative focused and linear, usually with a set number of playable characters. WRPGs have a main quest with very open ended solutions, and usually have a lot of character customization and exploration elements. Of course, that means JRPGs can come from the west, like Undertale, and WRPGs can come from Japan, like Dark Souls.
@@JamesTheFoxeArt Slight hole in that definition; given how Initiative works in D&D it's a JRPG by that logic.
Very good video Mark, glad you didn't plump for just one in the end. Definitely recommend people also check out numerous of Jeremy Parish's videos on some of those early RPG and adventure titles, particularly in his 'Metroidvania-works' series.
I been watchin your content for about a year now and the videos you make are extremely insightful to me. There are things you have explained to me that I always wondered about. A lot of what I learned were things I never would have known if it wasn't for your explaination. So much has to come into account in order for a video game to even start to be worked on. I think it's almost a miracle that video games get made in the first place. Then add the task of trying to make a very good game that ppl will want to play for months on end possibly. Its definitely a difficult task being an outsider looking in, and I don't know the half.
As a scrambling student writing his paper on DnD influences, you save my ass
That feel when you have friends who refuse to play D&D because it is "too nerdy" but they just play RPGs all day.
@Bob Bobbertson I have mutants and masterminds... the number crunching scares them away. I also have an old star wars book but i haven't read it yet.
I don't play D&D because I don't want to do the math myself 😛
tabletop isn't the same thing as video games
@@kid14346 if it's math that scares them away, you could maybe try FATE. The core book is up online for free, just google Fate SRD and it should be the first result. It's a very simple system focused almost entirely on the narrative with very little number crunching :)
D&D is sllllooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwww....
Did anyone else get a vibe that they were watching a Ahoy video? Loved the short, yet detailed history of how the two types of RPG's have a common start point, yet have enough of a divergence to be considered separate or different.
Yes. I love this history lesson and documentary-style Ahoy. Man I wish on stars to see Mark and Ahoy collaborate. But my ears would be in heaven with their smooth voices and brain would explode fill to the brim with knowledge.
First video I ever saw on this channel. love the research, analysis, and presentation! great job.
well off to more videos...
This is Game Maker’s TCCLKIT
A plea: abandon the stylized ‘O’-I kept misreading it the whole time and was having ironic flashbacks to your passionate appeals for accessibility in games. Still love the videos either way, and thank you for making them!
This is why Xenoblade Chronicles is my favorite game of all time. I believe it is the perfect blend of Western and Eastern RPG design sensibilities.
Nice to see a Xenoblade fan out in the wild
Jesus the depth of your research is insane! Love the narrating from the beginning to the end, so coherent and informative! Thank you for sharing this :)
Another great video. Always love hearing you talk about something as interesting as video game history. Please continue to do so