I think a lot of people also forget that those BiS lists are BiS with that EXACT set of gear. Exactly as you stated in here, everything changes based on what you currently have. Ive aleeady had to explain it a few times to people in my guild who are like, "Why does it say this Haste/Vers ring is better than my Crit/Mast ring??? My bis stats are crit/mast!" So thank you for this and putting it out there so more people can hear it.
Man, yesterday I was CRAZY with like 20 tabs opened with the top 20 assassination rogue on raids and mythics, comparing their stats with mines. I was going nuts thinking I built my stats distribution wrong, too much in crit and missing some haste and versa, and literally put every gem and recrafted everything I could to put some vers in it, simming all this, gave me around 1k DPS, then I realize the DPS problem i was having, was between the keyboard and the chair, now watching your video I feel much better, thanks for helping with my anxiety 😆😆
I’ve recently fallen in love with this spec. I appreciate your content a great deal. As a lock main, I’m very spoiled in terms of content creators and theorycrafters. I often find that missing from other classes. Not here though! Thank you!
Idk i never really bis lists seriously versus my own sim, I think the enchant popularity is useful for some specs who have choices or for ppl who are unfamiliar
I might get crucified for this but: I hardly sim at all. I trust the approximate stat weights knowledgeable players of the class (not data bases) provide and go from there. Additionally, I use BiS lists for inspiration rather than take them as gospel. For context: I play mostly M+, but have never pushed beyond 18s, only tanked up to 16s. And at this level, I don't feel anyone has to min-max yet. I also check out some of the highest-level content creators and more often than not I get the feeling that they rather use the try & error approach than blindly trusting aggregated data. As always: Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Yeah I frankly don’t think you really have to bother giga min-maxing like that for even low end mythic raiding or even +22’s or something. You can get close enough just having a general knowledge base. Problem is a lot of people even in lower end heroic guilds or just doing +10’s or +15’s will look up bis lists and follow them to the word, or they’ll just copy down whatever subcreation says I’ve seen it plenty of times where someone opens a vault, and then sends a message like “hey have a 483 tier helm, or bis ring, do I take ring cause it’s bis?” And it’s like a 460 ring that’s, at least to me, very clearly an awful pick. I’m sure we’ve all seen one of those “+12 need Aug” key groups as well. People hyperfocus on meta and the last drop of +0.0001% dps when it’s not necessary at all. Least I can do is try and point people in the right direction ya know. More power to you man for not giving into the meta pressure much love
It's an interesting topic that ties into the fact that a lot of people, especially the younger demographic of course, live out their ambitions, struggles and achievements in a virtual reality. I often say that if your game is making you suffer on some level, which I think is fairly common, you _could_ be suffering IRL instead. IRL is the place where all your struggles actually have the potential to translate into something you can use. I think the work simulations are the most symbolic examples. Why would you simulate work when you can do the work? Please don't power-wash things for score, power-wash things for money and RL experience. It'll get you started on the path to many things, good and bad. Gaming won't. Gaming is just stasis. Out there is where things actually happen. The only exception to this rule of thumb is if you can be a pro gamer, but very, very few have the kind of talent and circumstantial luck to make that happen. And even then it's not golden unless you belong to a fraction of a fraction of a tiny decimal. In other words, be realistic. That's all. Good luck to this generation.
Would you always sim for biggest dps only? I feel like I take a lot of damage in high keys, but there is not a way to know if you wanna stack more versatility to be a little more tanky?
there is no way to sim against damage intake, no. Simulations are designed to point you towards the highest dps. The only place where you would really need more versatility would be in like keys above +25, thats when it starts to really matter. But typically even then you would need to get a considerable amount of vers to survive things. Remember that 10% vers is 5% damage reduction. So if you really need the tankiness, chances are that getting a bit more vers won't save you either. Best option is to run elusiveness and pray, or go outlaw since they stack vers already. There's a couple people doing 28's and stuff with assassination, they don't stack vers either
@@whispyr5793 Alright, this is an ongoing discussion I have with a healer in my guild, and we are not doing +25... yet..... So I will show him this ^^ Thank you for answering, and thank you for all the videos, they have really helped me out a lot!
I run loot council in my raid team, and the amount of times raiders scream BIS and it's a downgrade (Just check wowhead bro). I've basically switched to saying "just trust your sims" so glad we've reached the same conclusion. Sometimes I will look at the bloodmallet trinket lists for specs im less sure of, would you say these are helpful or just more aggregate trash?
They can be hit or miss sometimes cause of combination issues. Like on assassination it’ll show branch #1 and ashes #2, but you would only ever use one of the on use trinkets, plus a passive as your second slot. Bloodmallet only compares the trinkets for one slot. So it’s accurate but you gotta know what you’re looking at
your entire point is "the relative value of stats changes based on your current stats" which is a relatively simple conclusion that someone can reach from first principles without even knowing about the existence of diminishing returns instead you draw it out into an incoherent 22 minute diatribe misdirected at stat aggregation websites. sites like subcreation are good exactly because they show what is popular for high-end key/raid players; you can see where peoples choices divergence from sims. lots of trinkets over/undersim, some stats are more valuable in a 5min raidbots calculation than in an actual dungeon, many specs trade off damage/healing/defensive profiles between different secondary stats in ways that is not immediately obvious from a sim. sure, you can misuse them if you blindly target every item on a "most popular by slot" website, but you can just as easily misuse a sim by blindly picking the highest number each time and this video's offers no guardrails against that form of misuse
> they show what is popular for high-end key/raid players This simply isn't true, it's showing most popular, regardless of skill level. Attributing the numbers to "high-end" is just stupid > lots of trinkets over/undersim For assassination this has happened exactly once in the last 4 years, but okay I guess. > some stats are more valuable in a 5min raidbots calculation than in an actual dungeon ...??? what? Who is simming 5 min for a dungeon? Using big fancy words and calling my video an "incoherent diatribe" doesn't really hit as hard when your critiques are uninformed at best. Thanks for the engagement though
@@whispyr5793 > This simply isn't true, it's showing most popular, regardless of skill level. Attributing the numbers to "high-end" is just stupid subcreation is explicitly >+20 keys and you can see the max key levels completed for different setups > For assassination this has happened exactly once in the last 4 years, but okay I guess. trinkets over/undersimming doesn't necessarily mean it's literally broken in simcraft. every signet brand sim this tier assumes uptime that can't realistically be achieved in keys. every witherbark branch sim assumes you optimally roll the stacks and line it up with CDs in a way that's often not possible e.g. if you need to stay stacked together for a pull. anyone simming a mix of target counts / pull durations has to consider priority target damage versus overall damage to decide what actually reduces key time the most rather than picking the highest number. running a droptimizer and picking the biggest number will get these decisions wrong just like target farming the most popular trinket on subcreation will >...??? what? Who is simming 5 min for a dungeon? lots of people, just like lots of people look at subcreation and pick whatever shows up. and these people at whom your video is aimed are exactly the kind of people who, if convinced by the video, would go to raidbots and pick items based on the highest numbers from 5min sims with default settings! they were already doing something crude and stupid before! if your argument is "people need to run lots of different sims for different situations and think carefully about the results" then you aren't really arguing for simming your character over looking at aggregation sites; you're just arguing for more critical thinking and nuance. which is fine, sure, but "people should make better decisions after thinking really hard" is a boring truism. someone thinking carefully about subcreation will understand the context of what they see just as someone like, here is a plausible outcome in some possible world: timmy the dumb rogue player originally looked at subcreation and was playing ashes of the embersoul. then he, watched your video, gets told that you should use sims over looking at subcreation, sees witherbark branch sims really high, then he farms that and consistently does less damage in all future keys because the sim made assumptions about witherbark branch usage that don't replicate in real keys, while all the other rogue players on the leaderboard understood that and weren't running branch for a reason. in this case, data aggregation sites capture the real world practical use of a trinket while sims might get it wrong
I also hate bis lists... but no more than I hate wowheads weekly dps write up that fuels the communities lowest performing players tank with fresh excuses to piss and moan on the forums..
I think a lot of people also forget that those BiS lists are BiS with that EXACT set of gear. Exactly as you stated in here, everything changes based on what you currently have. Ive aleeady had to explain it a few times to people in my guild who are like, "Why does it say this Haste/Vers ring is better than my Crit/Mast ring??? My bis stats are crit/mast!" So thank you for this and putting it out there so more people can hear it.
I see it so much it actually hurts me
Man, yesterday I was CRAZY with like 20 tabs opened with the top 20 assassination rogue on raids and mythics, comparing their stats with mines. I was going nuts thinking I built my stats distribution wrong, too much in crit and missing some haste and versa, and literally put every gem and recrafted everything I could to put some vers in it, simming all this, gave me around 1k DPS, then I realize the DPS problem i was having, was between the keyboard and the chair, now watching your video I feel much better, thanks for helping with my anxiety 😆😆
Whispyr finally broke. The bot auto-meme was still not enough on the discord.
I’ve recently fallen in love with this spec. I appreciate your content a great deal. As a lock main, I’m very spoiled in terms of content creators and theorycrafters. I often find that missing from other classes. Not here though! Thank you!
It should be noted that a lot of people are using Vers/Crit for outlaw and not fully gearing for Assa
Idk i never really bis lists seriously versus my own sim, I think the enchant popularity is useful for some specs who have choices or for ppl who are unfamiliar
I might get crucified for this but: I hardly sim at all. I trust the approximate stat weights knowledgeable players of the class (not data bases) provide and go from there. Additionally, I use BiS lists for inspiration rather than take them as gospel. For context: I play mostly M+, but have never pushed beyond 18s, only tanked up to 16s. And at this level, I don't feel anyone has to min-max yet. I also check out some of the highest-level content creators and more often than not I get the feeling that they rather use the try & error approach than blindly trusting aggregated data. As always: Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Yeah I frankly don’t think you really have to bother giga min-maxing like that for even low end mythic raiding or even +22’s or something. You can get close enough just having a general knowledge base.
Problem is a lot of people even in lower end heroic guilds or just doing +10’s or +15’s will look up bis lists and follow them to the word, or they’ll just copy down whatever subcreation says
I’ve seen it plenty of times where someone opens a vault, and then sends a message like “hey have a 483 tier helm, or bis ring, do I take ring cause it’s bis?” And it’s like a 460 ring that’s, at least to me, very clearly an awful pick. I’m sure we’ve all seen one of those “+12 need Aug” key groups as well.
People hyperfocus on meta and the last drop of +0.0001% dps when it’s not necessary at all. Least I can do is try and point people in the right direction ya know. More power to you man for not giving into the meta pressure much love
It's an interesting topic that ties into the fact that a lot of people, especially the younger demographic of course, live out their ambitions, struggles and achievements in a virtual reality. I often say that if your game is making you suffer on some level, which I think is fairly common, you _could_ be suffering IRL instead. IRL is the place where all your struggles actually have the potential to translate into something you can use. I think the work simulations are the most symbolic examples. Why would you simulate work when you can do the work? Please don't power-wash things for score, power-wash things for money and RL experience. It'll get you started on the path to many things, good and bad. Gaming won't. Gaming is just stasis. Out there is where things actually happen.
The only exception to this rule of thumb is if you can be a pro gamer, but very, very few have the kind of talent and circumstantial luck to make that happen. And even then it's not golden unless you belong to a fraction of a fraction of a tiny decimal. In other words, be realistic.
That's all. Good luck to this generation.
uh huh...... I didn't really mean for this to turn into a societal allegory but you do you man
love this spec, love your hair, hate dumbass data aggregation
agreed, thank you, very based
Would you always sim for biggest dps only?
I feel like I take a lot of damage in high keys, but there is not a way to know if you wanna stack more versatility to be a little more tanky?
there is no way to sim against damage intake, no. Simulations are designed to point you towards the highest dps. The only place where you would really need more versatility would be in like keys above +25, thats when it starts to really matter. But typically even then you would need to get a considerable amount of vers to survive things.
Remember that 10% vers is 5% damage reduction. So if you really need the tankiness, chances are that getting a bit more vers won't save you either. Best option is to run elusiveness and pray, or go outlaw since they stack vers already. There's a couple people doing 28's and stuff with assassination, they don't stack vers either
@@whispyr5793
Alright, this is an ongoing discussion I have with a healer in my guild, and we are not doing +25... yet..... So I will show him this ^^
Thank you for answering, and thank you for all the videos, they have really helped me out a lot!
Good info, and definitely informative. Thanks!
Glad you enjoyed it!
So... What stat weights should I be going for?
:) Love you, kbai
screaming
Happy New Year, Whispyr!
Happy new year!
love video description
Love bis
This was super useful thank you so much!
You're so welcome!
I run loot council in my raid team, and the amount of times raiders scream BIS and it's a downgrade (Just check wowhead bro). I've basically switched to saying "just trust your sims" so glad we've reached the same conclusion.
Sometimes I will look at the bloodmallet trinket lists for specs im less sure of, would you say these are helpful or just more aggregate trash?
They can be hit or miss sometimes cause of combination issues. Like on assassination it’ll show branch #1 and ashes #2, but you would only ever use one of the on use trinkets, plus a passive as your second slot. Bloodmallet only compares the trinkets for one slot. So it’s accurate but you gotta know what you’re looking at
I feel like I caused this video thank you ❤
Suspicious
Love you!
Do you like BIS lists by the way ? Happy New Year!
Happy new year!
I love bis lists so much man it’s unreal, I divorced my wife for bis lists
Really good, thank you!
your entire point is "the relative value of stats changes based on your current stats" which is a relatively simple conclusion that someone can reach from first principles without even knowing about the existence of diminishing returns
instead you draw it out into an incoherent 22 minute diatribe misdirected at stat aggregation websites. sites like subcreation are good exactly because they show what is popular for high-end key/raid players; you can see where peoples choices divergence from sims. lots of trinkets over/undersim, some stats are more valuable in a 5min raidbots calculation than in an actual dungeon, many specs trade off damage/healing/defensive profiles between different secondary stats in ways that is not immediately obvious from a sim. sure, you can misuse them if you blindly target every item on a "most popular by slot" website, but you can just as easily misuse a sim by blindly picking the highest number each time and this video's offers no guardrails against that form of misuse
> they show what is popular for high-end key/raid players
This simply isn't true, it's showing most popular, regardless of skill level. Attributing the numbers to "high-end" is just stupid
> lots of trinkets over/undersim
For assassination this has happened exactly once in the last 4 years, but okay I guess.
> some stats are more valuable in a 5min raidbots calculation than in an actual dungeon
...??? what? Who is simming 5 min for a dungeon?
Using big fancy words and calling my video an "incoherent diatribe" doesn't really hit as hard when your critiques are uninformed at best.
Thanks for the engagement though
@@whispyr5793
> This simply isn't true, it's showing most popular, regardless of skill level. Attributing the numbers to "high-end" is just stupid
subcreation is explicitly >+20 keys and you can see the max key levels completed for different setups
> For assassination this has happened exactly once in the last 4 years, but okay I guess.
trinkets over/undersimming doesn't necessarily mean it's literally broken in simcraft. every signet brand sim this tier assumes uptime that can't realistically be achieved in keys. every witherbark branch sim assumes you optimally roll the stacks and line it up with CDs in a way that's often not possible e.g. if you need to stay stacked together for a pull. anyone simming a mix of target counts / pull durations has to consider priority target damage versus overall damage to decide what actually reduces key time the most rather than picking the highest number. running a droptimizer and picking the biggest number will get these decisions wrong just like target farming the most popular trinket on subcreation will
>...??? what? Who is simming 5 min for a dungeon?
lots of people, just like lots of people look at subcreation and pick whatever shows up. and these people at whom your video is aimed are exactly the kind of people who, if convinced by the video, would go to raidbots and pick items based on the highest numbers from 5min sims with default settings! they were already doing something crude and stupid before!
if your argument is "people need to run lots of different sims for different situations and think carefully about the results" then you aren't really arguing for simming your character over looking at aggregation sites; you're just arguing for more critical thinking and nuance. which is fine, sure, but "people should make better decisions after thinking really hard" is a boring truism. someone thinking carefully about subcreation will understand the context of what they see just as someone
like, here is a plausible outcome in some possible world: timmy the dumb rogue player originally looked at subcreation and was playing ashes of the embersoul. then he, watched your video, gets told that you should use sims over looking at subcreation, sees witherbark branch sims really high, then he farms that and consistently does less damage in all future keys because the sim made assumptions about witherbark branch usage that don't replicate in real keys, while all the other rogue players on the leaderboard understood that and weren't running branch for a reason. in this case, data aggregation sites capture the real world practical use of a trinket while sims might get it wrong
On Use trinkets. Basically if you aren't perfect or you don't have them macro'd arbitrarily, just use passive and stat sticks.
not sure if that's the solution really, but sure
Whísp, u r loved.
you are too buddy
I also hate bis lists... but no more than I hate wowheads weekly dps write up that fuels the communities lowest performing players tank with fresh excuses to piss and moan on the forums..
yeah they mean well but it's pretty rough. The forums in general are kind of a shitshow though, no one sane posts on there
you make a lot of sense!
I try :)
this dude is really lost in the sauce
I am the sauce
Please lure me out from playing sub :s progging smolderon and sub just feels so much better there :o but i hate it :D
I've been trying to play sub but man I suck lmao, gotta get more muscle memory
Bro that’s crazy, didn’t ask though. (This is a bit this is a bit this is a bit)
I asked
@@whispyr5793yeah okay pal
bro who tf cares about all of this? just loging get gear and kill bosses with 70-90 logs and logout , no need to stress aobut all of this crap lmao
Thanks for sharing
22 mins of saying the same thing over and over again. Whew
thanks for the engagement