If you feel this is an important thing for people to learn about, please share this video with others to increase understanding. As always, I'm impressed with the respectful and informed comments from Big Brain aubscribers. Thank you for watching the whole video before commenting and thank you for sharing your comments in a respectful manner. Many of the issues discussed here are unique to the western US: Arizona, Colorado, and Utah, where there is a huge amount of national public land and a long history of different trail users deciding who should be allowed to recreate here. Much of this debate was going on long before ebikes came to the scene, but anytime we introduce a new recreational vehicle/instrument, we need to discuss how it fits in with existing trail usage rules. When commenting, I'd love to hear what part of the world you live in and what the climate is like there for trail users. To learn more about Moab's trail closures, including Gemini Bridges rd, right next to Mag 7, read here: www.moabtimes.com/articles/blms-labyrinth-rims-travel-plan-closes-28-of-ohv-routes/
I bought my first MTB in 1984 when the Specialized StumpJumper was introduced. Now that I am 73, I find the mid-motor eBike I bought in 2019 allow me to ride in spite of heart disease and bad knees. I ride an hour each morning to insure I live longer. I try to be a good ambassador for electric bikes while making evert effort to NOT to blame those riders with throttles and 1000 watt kit bikes riding at 30 mph for the division between the various facets in the bicycle world. I rarely pass non-eBike riders on hills and nod or smile to everyone our enjoying the outdoors. Many are having none of it. Few of my fellow riders here in Salt Lake City acknowledge those with battery on their frame. Fortunately most of the runners, even the pros in training, do acknowledge a fellow human out getting some exercise. Hallelujah! Thanks for the video.
There are many hidden disabilities, for those who are ASD/ADHD as I am, communication is extremely challenging, and all interaction with neurotypical people, is defined by my being misunderstood and my inability to understand. So Steve's extremely enlightened comment is something, I will personally use myself in future (with your permission of course)
3 месяца назад+34
In my opinion the biggest problem with EMTBs is they allow "regular" people to ride in nature. And by regular i mean, just people, unfiltered. When covid started and there was a huge rush in outdoor sports, i noticed a BIG spike in the amount of trash in the forests, more trails widened to highways, signs of burnt plastic in fireplaces, etc... With regular MTBs if you want to be deep out in the forest (not bikeparks), you sure have to be fit, which requires regular training, which usually means you'll have some respect to the area you're in. Bad people won't put that much effort into having fun. Now, ebikes has allowed some of these bad people to try this sport, but without having any respect to nature, or to the general culture of outdoor activities. Previously we had this big filter, that stopped them from going further. Now, they can go with ease. But the same proportions are everywhere, on roads, workplaces, online... So it's more of a human problem, not a vehicle problem. But of course, this new technology allows you and so many other people to enjoy this sport without being restricted to the base of the mountain. I think it far outweighs the drawbacks. Also, you could ride your 25+kg ebike for a thousand years and not do the damage in forests that loggers do in a single day.
There's definitely a need for more outdoor ethics education among all usergroups. I'm glad more people are getting out in nature than before, but I also realize that many new recreationists aren't aware of leave no trace principles and other trail ethics. I hope that the more time people spend in nature, the more they'll want to take care of it, especially with a little education of how best to do that.
I think we are lucky in SoCal that there is very little friction or issues between analog and E MTB riders. I really don't see any discernable difference in ethics or land use practices between the two groups. We all try to leave as little trace and to be as respectful as possible with hikers. The less we draw attention to ourselves, the better down here
Yeah, the government shut down created a once in a lifetime situation. I was out mtn biking and came across this family who were hiking. They were a little turned around and as I passed they asked me a question. So, I stopped and gave them some options to get back to the trail head. In the meantime, there two elementary aged children were running all around both on and off the trail. I informed the mother that her children were running through poison oak. She was clueless to what that was. I said look it up, they will be getting a blister rash in about 2-3 days.
It's interesting because the trails local to my work where I ride during lunch a lot, the more dog walkers I see, the more trash I see. But on these bigger trail systems, I do thin your right to some degree. There seems to be an issue with people not "getting it" when it comes to not leaving trash everywhere. The problem is, to anybody with some "common sense" they know not to throw trash on the ground, but "training" those people won't to anything. They're probably the same people that throw trash out of the their car window.
I coach on a Nica team in Arkansas, and I can without a doubt tell you that even on my e-bike I have a hard time leading our faster riders. It's all I can do to stay in front and lead them, and I've been riding for years. I also know that at 60 with bum knees an e-bike is the only way I can enjoy a pain free ride. It has become harder to ride in the mountains in Colorado or New Mexico as my knees have gotten worse, and not many trails are approved, but I have found trails around Angel Fire and the past three years that's where I've gone and spent my money. I wish that people could simply decide to get a long and get over the hate for whatever type of mountain bike others are riding. Anyway, I have always enjoyed your videos, and I'm glad that most of the trails in Arkansas allow e-bikes. "edited" I forgot to mention, that my e-bike sure makes it easier to do trail work miles away from the trailhead.
I am not an e-biker yet, but I have met a lot of guys on pedal bikes who complain about e-bikes "destroying the trail." I don't see how that is possible. My Stumpy Evo with its fat downtube gets confused for an e-bike by other riders and park rangers. Everything is good after I show people the inside of my SWAT cage. Steve, you are a stud by any measure! I will be praying for you during mass again.
Ebikes do no more damage to trails than normal mtbs, unless the rider actively tries to damage trail surfaces (skidding, spinning rear wheel on loose surfaces etc).
There are actually three schools of thought with regards to using land for recreational purposes: 1. I don't want to be engaged and just want to use the land. 2. I want to be engaged in the upkeep of this beautiful trail system because I want to use it. 3. I don't want any user group to have access, and I will use whatever laws I can to STOP YOU from using it.
I’m personally torn on this subject and have a pretty similar take to other people in the comment section. On one hand, eMTBs do provide access to a sport that might be otherwise off-limits to a certain percentage of the population and I believe you or Martyn Ashton are perfect examples of this. However, this same enabling aspect of eMTBs eschews barriers that have been long standing mores within not just the MTB community but the entire cycling world. Having *effectively* an FTP of something like 350W traditionally only comes with hours upon hours on the saddle which naturally builds bike handling skills as well. Instantly having access to this kind of power without the fundamental skills, understanding of trail etiquette, and hard learned lessons to back it up is a recipe for damaged trails. As a trail builder, the issue I personally have with eMTBers, at least in southern California, is the overall lack of skill in many of the riders. For every one respectful eMTBer there are a dozen Freds locking their brakes, cutting ruts into descents, and creating shortcuts on switch-back climbs and new trail spurs around features they’re not comfortable riding. In addition to that, you are absolutely correct about eMTBers in Southern California poaching trails here and from what I can tell, it’s due to no enforcement. Anecdotally, while performing trail maintenance at my local network, the only people I have had go around “Trail Closed for Maintenance” signs are eMTBers as well.
Love the video. Could not have said it better myself. It’s honestly so refreshing to hear someone be calm and thoughtful about this subject. I ride and run/hike all the same trails and systems around me, and your point about who we’re convincing is so poignant. When I’m on my bike I just do my best to treat people how I want to be treated when I’m on foot, and I’ve always had super positive interactions (also, I’m a bad, slow rider so I don’t have to slow down much lmao). The only negative trail interactions I’ve had have been on foot, being buzzed by on single track by ebikers sans helmets who gave me no warning, and, interestingly enough, with a pretty famous rider who almost took me out on a blind corner. I think the point many are making about “earning” the ability to really bike on the trails is correct. I definitely learned a lot about etiquette and culture while I was getting fit enough to go for real rides, and if you don’t have to go through that, that’s a problem. I’m proud of what I’ve personally accomplished physically and mentally with my bike, but I don’t think everyone should have to go through that. But how do you skip that step and still end up with responsible users?
Some people are just rude. They’re like that in all aspects of their life. Putting them on a bicycle, e-bike or even as a hiker for any amount of time generally doesn’t make them nicer. I ride the full range of mountain bikes, my favorite being the Ibis Ripley, but I also occasionally ride a trek fuel EXE and a trek rail mid and full power ebikes, respectively. Cruising on the full power or slogging up a treacherous climb on the ibis Ripley, I am always happy to be out on two wheels and greet everybody I pass. it is amazing to me the number of people on bikes and hiking who never respond and aren’t even Happy. They don’t even look like they are enjoying themselves.
Relatively recent convert to the eMTB world. At 54 and with a heart condition that has required 2 surgeries, I held out and rode analog for a long time and kept getting slower and more miserable on rides. Since going eMTB, I’m having more fun mountain biking than I have in almost 20 years. And, I’m in better - not worse - aerobic shape. It’s a game changer. The mostly federal land management stance that class 1 eMTBs are the equivalent of motorcycles is woefully outdated and horribly incorrect.
Thanks for the video. I have no problems with my e-bikes in my area here in NorCal or Tahoe in the Sierras. I also ride analog bikes, hike and trail run lots. I got onto trail running since some of the local single tracks are off limits to any bikes. Trail running solved that problem. So instead of poaching trails I just morphed!
Super glad you are able to get out on the emtb. I am 53 and have been riding since 1991, started on a rigid frame ironhorse then onto zaskar hardtail which I loved. I ride a xc race fs bike, ripmo af with a coil and a giant reign e+2 emtb. I love all of them for different reasons but the emtb is hands down the most fun I have ever had on a bike going all the back to bmx when I was 10 yrs old. The "purists" who argue about earning descents is the same stuff I heard from hikers in 90's then mtbr's when full suspension bikes came onto scene. I live in Jeffco county in Colorado which legalized class 1 emtb in 2018 and the sky has not fallen, trails are still there and everyone coexists. Ride on Steve!
It is a culture of entitlement and wanting everything now. It should be a culture of being greatful for what we have not what we dont have. We owe it to future generations. Thankful for your channels Steve. Good to see you out in the sunshine.
Great video. First, happy to see you riding Steve. I was in Kingdom Trails 2 weeks ago an came across a lady of 70+ with her sons and family members. She was riding an e-bike and I was so impressed that she was able to follow her crew and enjoy the beautiful day we all had. As long as everyone be careful of others, I'm fine with e-bikes!
Pedal assist bikes 250w or under(speed limited to 25km/h) are just put in the same category(for access) as pedal bikes here in Aus, so they are just a normal thing to see on all MTB trails. NZ and the EURO zone are similar. Some people hate them but haters are everywhere, I'll bag out friends that have them but I know they are fun but Very expensive. Trail damage is basically non-existent and most of the newer trails are designed with EMTBs in mind, electric dirt bikes are a very different thing here in Aus and are treated the same as a two-stroke dirt bike etc (licence, registration and specific riding areas)
My northwest Arkansas city just passed a misguided ban of class 2 and 3 e-bikes on soft-surface trails. Every justification cited was describing not e-MTBs but e-motos (electric dirt bikes that are much more powerful). People making these decisions don't seem to know the difference. They also outlawed class 3 e-bikes on paved bike paths because they're capable of exceeding 15 mph, a rule that makes as much sense as banning all sports cars from roads.
I ride on Vancouver Island and there is starting to be a fair number of ebikes on all the trail networks. In almost all networks the pedal assist are allowed. I personally don't ride an ebike but I have no issues at all with ebikes on the trail. There are inconsiderate riders on all platforms, so yes an uninformed ebike rider 'could' ride up a trail they shouldn't but I have rarely heard of this being an issue. I have a friend who due to a health issue couldn't ride if he didn't ride an ebike, we ride together and he simply goes my pace on the acoustic. I think the discussion shouldn't be ebike vs non-ebike but rather education/consideration on how to properly use trails. Thanks for the video on the subject.
In the area I live in bordering LA/ Ventura county e-bikes have become the norm on my local trails. I really don’t see any restrictions at the trailheads other than non-motorized only. Sometimes on a Saturday ride I feel I’m definitely in the minority not riding an e-bike. It does follow the larger trend that I see in the local bike shops that are stock full of e-bikes. I think there should be certain restrictions on E-bikes. They do impact the trails especially steeper trails where the motors torque digs into loose ground more.The other problem is the speed differential with the hiker. Before the e-bike hikers only had to contend with the speed of bikes traveling downhill. With the e-bike the hiker has to contend with speed differences on climbing too. If there are restrictions put in place 1) such as not letting e-bikes on steep trails 2) removing “turbo” modes and requiring bells on all E-bikes. I think E-Bikes should be allowed in more areas. It seems overly restrictive in Sedona.
Well put. I used to be a motorcyclist and I converted to mountain biking a few years ago and found there’s a lot of places to ride mountain bikes. It’s great. There’s very few places to ride motorcycles. My concern is that we’ll start losing MTB trail access because of e bikes. If people insist on claiming that e-bikes are mountain bikes, and that e-bikes should be allowed anywhere mountain bikes are, then those who are opposed to e bikes might ban both e bikes and mountain bikes because “they’re the same thing”.
The fact that skidding through a corner is not only acceptable but is almost mandatory in every bike ad, tells me how much the bike industry cares about trails and access. Most of the "good behavior" of mountain bikers in the 90's was born out of the fear of loosing access... I'm hoping we aren't about to learn our lesson the hard way again.
Agreed It breaks my heart. Kids (and adults) see people skidding around the corners on the edits, then they duplicate it on the trail. Short-sighted behavior.
to be fair the bike industry has been doing this type of advertising well before e-bikes came on the scene. Gary Fisher was the king of "sliding through corners".
@@jiw71 Very true. I always assumed they didn't know any better back then but It probably was, and still is, the basic advertising need to show how bad ass you'll be on one of their bikes.
These are my random thoughts on the subject... Firstly, I live in the UK where road legal ebikes are limited to 15mph and they have to be pedal assist, no press and go. Also, the default rule is that MTBs are allowed on bridleways (equestrian trails) unless there is a specific ruling for that trail. I'm fully with you on cooperating with other trail users and avoiding conflict as its the only way to make rules that people will respect but many non-bike trail users are sceptical about ebikes because they don't understand them. I think its important for all concerned to discuss what it is about ebikes they don't like and as I see it there are three main concerns, one is safety of other trail users, another is damage to the trail and the third is the nuisance factor. As I see it normal eMTBs are no worse than a big guy riding a standard analog MTB in terms of safety (speed and weight) or trail damage. What worries some trail users is that they confuse eMTBs with e-motorbikes like a SurRon which obviously is a lot faster, heavier and does more trail damage than an MTB. Worth mentioning, when it comes to trail damage horses do a lot more damage than MTBs or eMTBs, they weigh a shed load more and have a small footprint to spread that weight. For the safety of hikers, they can cause serious injury to their rider or a hiker if spooked (e.g I know people who have been thrown by their horse because of noises like clanking pans hanging off a backpack). When it comes to the nuisance factor eMTBs may cause more people to use bikes on some trails which is important to consider but people were worried about that in the 70s and we've mostly found a happy balance I'd say?
Great video - thanks for addressing the issues in a thoughtful manner. A few of my observations and thoughts from former SoCal and now the PNW. The higher speed that EMTBs travel require harder braking and from what I have seen, there is more skidding which over time does degrade trails. I am a long time bicycle enthusiast, both road and MTB including tandem MTBs. I also ride off road motorcycles and have competed in Observed trials events for years. So, I have a little experience. Some peoples idea of EMTBs are a stretch, pedals hung on what is basically an electric motorcycle. The plethora of 'Amazon' fat tire e bikes, RADs, etc is disturbing to me. I am all for people getting out on bikes, and if an EMTB helps those with disabilities do so or others who would otherwise not get out and ride, then I fully support that and those people. But I have had one too many newbies on ebikes who would otherwise not be on the trail if not for a motor, pass me closely, kicking up dust with no regard for disturbing my sense of peace or safety. I would like to see those who purchase a EMTB (or MTB for that matter) be required to have some sort education regarding trail etiquette and conservation. People are people and you are always going to have a few bad actors that spoil it for the others. Excessively loud off road motorcycles comes to mind. I must admit, I do not understand the love of ebikes or EMTBs. I ride for exercise and the the love of the outdoors and while I understand you can go further on an EMTB...whats the point? You have the added complexity, destroy drivetrains that were never intended for powered bikes and produce more e waste. These are just my opinions and you know what they say about opinions ;-)
Excellent thoughts, thank you for chiming in and adding to the discussion. I remember we discussed similar education courses for people buying side by sides. When side by sides were introduced to the market, motos and jeepers were up in arms because of how capable they are and how little outdoor ethics education there was among a large segment of the usergroup.
Interesting piece. I'm curious where your 98% of trails in So Cal are illegal/poached number comes from? Regarding e-bikes, I own one, and I ride it and my regular bike I ride both more or less the same. The biggest issue I see is with e-bikes is riders not with bikes themselves. Novice riders blasting by people up hill at 15 miles an hour or passing others with no bell, not saying anything going 3-4x faster than the people they are passing or shouting "on your left" and expecting everyone to scramble out of their way whether it is safe or not. There's a startle factor that makes people mad, trail etiquette really helps in most cases.
Love Steve's take accounting for historical context to areas and why/how they got setup the way the did. I quit riding dirtbikes because I was sick of having to drive hours through empty public lands all the way to the Rez in order to ride, it just wasn't worth the time in the car...I feel like mountain biking is hanging on by a thread without realizing it!!! Stuff like this gets put to a public vote and there are 1000 non-riders for every one rider and they could care less if we lose access. Here in Socal we have all the kids riding full on E mini dirtbikes in traffic and all around town, average people dont even know they are different from bikes. We also have e-foil surfboards which can be considered personal water craft/boats or can be thought of as just e-surfboards depending on your perspective...whew its complex, and it doesn't help that it all gets tied up in the rhetoric of electronic cars/"green" transportation...
Good stuff Steve. You articulated the entire thing very well. I've been worried about e-bikes removing trail access. I think there are a lot of great reasons to allow bikes and e-bikes in more places. But I also agree with you that having specific trails for the specific use cases is also needed. At the end of the day, we all just want to go outside and do the sport/activity that we enjoy. Hopefully as humans we'll be able to come up with something that everyone can agree on. I think another possibility of trail access being messed up is the growing popularity of off road one wheels. I could see some legislature related to them and motors affecting the e-cycling access but even possibly analog as well.
Personally, as long as an e-mtb is pedal assist, key word assist, they should be allowed anywhere "analog" bikes are. The problem is with that percentage of riders who don't obey the rules or feel they own the trail and don't respect other users, abuse the trails or blaze along w/o any consideration for the consequences. I myself prefer good technical singletrack over flow style, but I am seeing the riders who are out thrill seeking, taking that same attitude to the normal singletrack, going as far as to changing or adding jumps and redirecting trails. This applies to both e-mtb and analog bikers.
So many great perspectives here. As a reformed emtb hater and someone who just put a deposit down on an SL ebike so my wife can enjoy the singletrack with me where legal, this video could not have given me more to reflect and research about
Im so glad it helped. Im in the market for an SL ebike as well. The full powered ones aren't my favorite, but i need some sort of assistance. I'm excited to experiment with more sl ebikes to see which one I click with.
Great video and love the perspectives. Full disclosure: I very much dislike the pedal assist crowd because of so many experiences with them here in AZ. I’d love for education to be the answer, I just don’t think that can happen because of all the rentals. We have too many bikers of all types now that these new motorized ones have been introduced and not enough trails. The only thing I can think of is having a note from your doctor to get a small disabled plate like they have on cars to display while you ride, allowing pedal assists with the placard more trails. If you don’t have it, you’re not allowed. Of course who’s going to enforce that? It’s the wild west out there, man. Unless we think a little out of the box though, we all might get banned.
Great discussion Steve!!! My best friend recently bought a cheaper e-bike and now he can join me on my 100+ km gravel rides. Before when we road together he could ride maybe 15-25 km before the lactic acid in his legs got him. Now with the e-bike and a spare battery he can join me on my 5+ hour rides with coffee stops and adventure riding!!! I ride my single speed Kona Unit and he has his e-bike, I set the pace and he stays with me and on some hills he will push the pace which pushes me and makes for a even greater ride!!! I believe e-bikes are the fastest growing part of the bike industry, loses of R/D going into it and even Honda, Yamaha, Harley Davidson are building e-bikes and investing in that space. I ride single speed bikes but have to issue with e-bikes. Many friends ride them for various reasons most because of physical limitations. I believe if it gets you off the couch, makes you feel better. And helps improve your health it’s great 👍.
Great video as always! I enjoy all the perspectives you provide and I learned some history I did not know. Thanks! In our area there are some trails open to everything, some hike only, some bike only, etc. I think thats OK. I don’t want to come across a hiker when I’m bombing downhill, but some places should be reserved for hikers to not worry about bikes! eMTB is not an issue as long as the trails allow it, but please don’t ride my rear tire when I’m hoofing it uphill just because you can go faster! Its not safe. When its wide enough to pass I will gladly let you by.
Its not every time, but Im also not too shocked when it happens. I attribute it to people who don’t usually ride getting on an eMTB to get to the top to ride the flow trails. They don’t look like the experienced riders who are usually chill.
Vast majority of San Diego is open to eMTBs; usually see a 50-50 split on the popular trails. Don't seem to be any trail conflicts with users, hikers, equestrians and regular analog MTB riders. We are all 20+ year former analog MTB riders with skills. We used to do an annual trip to Sedona, but after diving more into the eMTB usage (have friend with a heart condition), we've now shelved Sedona for the Red Rocks of the Greater Zion Area with its open policy on trails on BLM land. Sorry, Sedona no more tourism dollars for you.
Pretty sure Sedona already gets a lot of tourism dollars, way too crowded Al ready. Just a hint: if you ever care to be respected by actual mountain bikers again, stop calling bikes analog, acoustic, amish, or whatever else the mtb industry came up with to make you all feel better about yourselves. It’s bikes and ebikes. Sounds like you gave up on bikes, and now you ebike. And if that’s what you prefer that’s 100% your choice and I hope you enjoy the heck out of it.
Thank you so much for going over the history of how trail access was won for mountain bikes. I think this is why e bikes slipping in on the heels of mountain bike access is concerning. You have a clear perspective on it regarding hiking groups and their potential to shut down access to all bikes. The same conflict/poaching issue is similar here in Pisgah National Forrest. Thanks for this great content!
For the last 25 years been fighting the battle keeping trails open for mountain bikers. Trail days, outreach, working with public officials show the biking community is not a threat as the hikers and horses want us out for good. Things have been perfect until few years ago. There's been numerous incidents between hikers, horse riders and rangers - sure enough all involve eBikers. Will not go into specifics but alot comes back to younger (sub-50) eBike riders, not experienced, not mature, have not earned their right to ride fast. To make it worse, some areas now closed to bikes or have banned eBikes, yet they still ride there and just dont care. We never saw these issues with analog riders or older eBike riders because they understand trail etiquette, progressed their skills to support their speed and all the hard work put into trail access. Policing of eBikes (which are illegal in most areas im located) has been almost non-existent so its causing conflicts with analog riders telling eBikers to get off the trails due to the risk in losing everything they invested in. For a community that worked together towards one goal - this has caused a big split that I think will get much worse.
Two things I do - while riding my emtb - to be a good trail citizen are (1) never blast past hikers (dial down from turbo mode) & (2) use a bell. Its annoying but hikers & animals appreciate it. On my ride today, a trail runner thanked me for using the bell.
i kind of feel like most mountain bikers i know, bend over backwards to be friendly to hikers. i think there is just no pleasing some people (emtb or or not). here in Colorado there are so many cases where dirtbikers have created awesome trail systems, only to get kicked out of their trails by hikers and mtbers. in general i’ve noticed many mountain bikers easing up their criticism of emtbs. myself included.
I wholeheartedly agree with what you’re saying. I sometimes go and work on our local trails on the organized work party days and there’s a lot of cooperation between different user groups in this area and it is leading to more trails for everybody and that’s saying a lot, considering it’s northern California.
With over 200 miles of MTB trails, it seems stupid that ebikes aren't allowed somewhere. There's no reason why everyone can't get out and play. I have no interest in an ebike, but maybe when I'm older I'll feel different.
People can get out and play on a non-motorized bicycle. Obese or lazy people are not entitled to run or pedal faster than they've put in the required work to do. No more of this 'inclusive' entitlement. Earn your access.
Great Video ❤ A very valid “Baby steps” video to put a possible discussion out there. I’m lucky I live in bentonville, Multi access is allowed….. and if anything our own angle is watch out hikers, there will be an e-bike coming….. and watch out bikers there maybe a hiker there, so keeps your eyes open!! 😮 I recently went to Boulder, I looked into e-bike use and couldn’t 100% guarantee I could ride so I took a “hardtail” instead, as it was I saw a lot of greenways with city type e-bikes using them and very few emtb’s so I don’t think I would of missed out anyways. As it was I didn’t ride at all as there was too much other things to see, so I didn’t feel I had missed out - Plus I hate creating drama so it’s natural for me to take a passive stance anyways. Once again, thanks.
This is such an important set of topics. Thank you for bringing more attention to them. All the fun tech stuff really pales in comparison. What good is it if there are no trails to ride? Historically, it seems reminiscent of what I heard in the north east US in the 90's. Later, in the South wes (Tucson) MTB trail building was a large part of the scene. Now in SoCal, I'm still trying to figure out what's what. But I'll continue to try and keep an open mind.
It was very interesting to listen. In Russia, we don't have a e-mtb problem. Mountain biking is not even close to being this big, as in US. But popularity is rising, new bike parks are being developed. We now got about 5. For the whole country, yes. And a lot of "wild" spots and trails to ride. Nobody sees assist e-bikes as a problem. They are not destroying trails, but allow you to do more laps for the same amount of time. Main problem our mountain biking is facing, are various kinds of idiots, that destroy trails. It's people who could come to spot and burn it down, because it was funny, or flat it with the bulldozer, because some people in the administration decidied that it is dangerous (for people, or for ecology). And, main problem, idiots on motorbikes, that ride mtb trails. There are normal motorcyclists, they got their own trails, routes, etc. And others, who bought "enduro" (or pit bike) and decided that now they could ride anywhere. Some trails and trail systems are used for skiing in the winter, and log jammed at the summer, just to not allow ATVs, pit-bikes and motorbikes to the trails.
This was an enlightening video and I liked how you covered all the bases and went into detail on why there's so much conflict over this issue. I remember seeing fire hazard was one of the reasons that emtbs were banned. There are lot of kits out there to convert regular bikes to emtbs. While OEM emtbs won't catch on fire, DIY one might.
As a former US Forest Service employee, I can speak to the feat from that end of permitting ebikes. the classification of eBikes as motorized vehicles is a deep level interpretation of FS regulations. That is on a national level. Each national forest also has its own Forest Plan which describes how that Forest will use those regulations to operate day to day. Fire management, wildlife protection and management, ecology management, engineering, recreation, etc. These plans can be revised, but it is a MASSIVE administrative undertaking - hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars in salary, for each individual Forest to revise their Forest plans. These plans are revised every 10 years if I am remembering correctly, and revising it early just for a small change like ebikes is not justifiable. This is only part of the equation, another part is what Steve talked about in the video, pushback from existing users, hiking and conservation groups, etc. Hope this helps provide additional context, this is a very high level explanation it is much more complicated than I'm able to understand.
Such an amazing perspective. Love the presentation of the history/background. I basically agree with you on all points now after knowing more. I don't want to mess things up for those who come after me.
I think the issue of access should not be whether a bike is motorized but the damage to the trails/hikers it causes. It makes little sense to put an ebike in the same category as a motorcycle as far as use/access to trails, when its impact on the land/other users is more closely aligned with a regular bicycle.
I used to be a no-ebike'er, then got an Oso and it totally changed my mind. Now with 2 kiddos, I'm very happy I have one otherwise I wouldn't be able to ride as many trails as I can now. As far as places like Sedona goes, what I think about is how the ratio of hikers to bikers is what, 4:1? 6:1? Maybe more? What I don't like is just because there are more hikers who have a louder voice, why do they get to say what the rules are? Side note - I've been riding in Sedona since 2013. When ebikes started getting popular, I still didn't see them hardly EVER on trails there, up UNTIL this year when I was at the MTB festival (with my non-ebike). I swear, every 6th bike or so was an e-mtb. It almost seemed like the town had a meeting or something where they were *considering* opening up some trails to pedal assist bikes and that opened the flood gates. Also found it odd that there were so many bike companies at the festival renting out their ebikes, including Shimano.
This is a good video. I’ve been a mountain biker for 20 years, and love to ride class 1 emtb’s. I’m a trail builder by trade now a days. The Emtb hate in the US still baffles me personally. I think classifying a class 1 emtb as a motorized vehicle that can only go where Motos and Jeeps are permitted, is ridiculous. Anyone who has ridden an emtb and an off road moto knows that the power and power delivery are not even in the same universe. They are completely different things, even though some riding skills and techniques may transfer from one to another and they are both awesome, along with regular mountain bikes. The impact on trails comes down to people riding responsibly. No matter which type of bike you are on. Yes, more people will get out and ride trails now that e-bikes are a thing, but it’s really how they use them that matters. The bikes themselves don’t cause the issue, lack of understanding and education are the problem, like you said. Nearly everyone I’ve talked to that hates on emtb’s, has never ridden one, isn’t educated on what they are like to ride, and feels some need to be a gate keeper so that people that aren’t “good enough” can’t ride the trails. They hardly ever stop to consider other people’s circumstances, such as yours, Steve. It’s also a huge myth that you can’t ride hard on an ebike. You can absolutely hammer a ride out and get your heart rate where it needs to be to train or make gains on the bike. You just have the ability of control your speed and suffering more than on a normal bike. I’ll always ride both analog and E, but the ebike is just undeniably an incredible tool to have access to.
Great perspective. What area of the world do you build trails in? I think it'd be interesting to have non-mtb user groups try ebikes and see if their opinions change or not.
I’m in the Upper Midwest, USA. I generally look to Europe and Australia for input on how class 1 Emtb trail access is handled, since it’s all over the place in the states.
From a regional perspective, I should also add that in the Midwest, we are building a LOT of mountain bike optimized trail, vs. trying to gain or maintain access to established trails that were maybe originally built for hiking or equestrian use. This definitely plays a role in ebike access from the get go.
YES! The variety of eBikes is enormous. My class1 is far from a eBike fitted with a unregulated kit motor and throttle, the latter needing little to no effort from the rider at all. I think the factory made turnkey class 1 bikes are docile enough to be allowed almost everywhere. I hope the various agencies concerned will see this in the coming years.
I like Sedona and planned to move there when I retired 5 years ago until I found out that I couldn't ride my ebike on the mountain bike trails. At 73 years old I can't ride a regular mountain bike. Here in Northern Ohio, the same trails are open to hikers, mountain bikers, and electric mountain bikers. Everyone gets along. The biggest problem is deciding who has the right of way. Technically, hikers have the right of way but usually the hiker says to the bikers, " You go first" and the biker responds " No, you go first." Both want to be nice and let the other go first. I prefer living in a place in which people want to be nice to each other and want everybody to be included. Arizona is beautiful and has better weather than Ohio but I will give up my dream to live there if the people there aren't nice enough to want to accommodate everyone.
Hi Steve, First, thanks so much for this objective discussion. First to my background to give an idea where my views of MTBs, eMTBs, and hikers come from: I am a classic hardtail mountain biker (Stanton Sherpa). I am from Germany (I try to avoid overly long sentences and apologise if I can’t help it anyway) and live close to the Alps. Germany is densely populated and the Alps are an area widely affected by over-tourism. I initially come from a hiking and mountaineering background and getting outdoors for me means to disconnect from stress and technology and to enjoy view, tranquillity and wildlife while doing sports. I am a nature lover and I am a big believer of the no-trace-policy wherever possible. Luckily, I am healthy and therefore there is no need for me to ride an eMTB. That does not mean that I am against eMTBs and as I get older I may decide to get an eMTB. For the moment, getting outdoors means for me to disconnect from technological influences as much as possible, except for a cell-phone in case of emergency. Now to my personal thoughts about eMTBs: I strongly believe that we do not have the right to do anything, anywhere at any time just because we are humans. Just like when dealing with other people, I believe we have to be humble and considerate when dealing with nature. As humans, we continuously push the natural wilderness further back. Many of us have an explorer gene within us. I certainly have it and I have spent many years as a researcher in the arctic wildernesses. Moreover, being in the wilderness gives us an appreciation of nature and an understanding of why it should be protected. That of course is a bit of a dilemma, at least for me. I wish more wilderness could be pristine. To the same time, I want to go there and experience pristine wilderness. However, if I decide to have the right to do that, I have to accept that others have the right to do the same. And at some point the pristineness may be gone. Therefore, my first thought would be that at least in nature and wilderness areas trails should either be open to hikers only or at least to people who are willing to explore nature by their own muscle power. The eMTB technology will evolve, the reach will grow and tourism or even overtourism in yet natural areas will accelerate even more. I think that discussion goes a bit into the direction of “should there be more cable cars to get people higher up the mountains” or “should we allow more heli-skiing”. The question is “where do we draw the boundary for too much technology use?”. To the same time, I do not want to hinder disabled people to experience nature in a way that I luckily can experience nature. And if I am honest: If fate would strike and I would not be able to get into nature without technological assistance, I most likely would use this technology. Therefore, it truly is a dilemma. My opinion is that eMTBs are totally fine if they help people to get out into nature. However, if I hear a mountainbiker saying “I get an eMTB to be faster, or to climb up technical sections, that I am not able to climb on a regular MTB, or to increase the distance that I can cover”, or I hear “Wow mountainbiking is so cool but I don’t want to put effort into fitness or learning the right technique but I want to do it anyway”, I honestly think that this is wrong. That is fine in a bike park but not out in the nature. Personally, I did not yet jump the fence on that issue and I am not sure if it is possible at all. However, I tend to this opinion: eMTB on nature trails “yes” but only with the right amount of humbleness and consideration towards nature and other trail users. eMTBs on nature trails NO if it is only for laziness, to be faster or to ride more technical sections. It is our responsibility to preserve nature and trails for future generations. We have to preserve trails for hikers only, who want to enjoy the silence of pure nature. We have to have some MTB-only trails, where people can go rowdy if they feel like it. Most importantly, we have to find a trail culture, where considerate mixed trail use is possible without any hate in any direction. And while all of us outdoor lovers seek for ultimate freedom, we may have to accept that it doesn’t exist in a society with mixed interests. But the greatest possible amount of freedom may be reached through humbleness and consideration.
Thanks for the video. I am admittedly an early hater of ebikes. However I have since changed my opinion.. This is a great perspective that you have shared. I'm happy you are still able to enjoy the sport you love!! On a side note, Would you mind sharing what helmet you are wearing in this video? Thanks again!!
@@BigBrainParty Oh Wow! I'm always amazed of the products that exist that I've never heard of... such as Julbo.. Thank you for sharing and thanks for the code.. I'm going to give it a look!!! thanks again for the great content.
Thank you for another interesting video. In the part of SoCal I live, some of the public trails don't allow bike because of the equestrian/horse people do not want us there. One of the trails I like was closed(to bikes & hikers too) because of the equestrians didn't like we were using the trail. I've even heard they are trying to limit trail access to hikers(on trails not bike legal) in another part of town too. I always found it interesting seeing bike brands having ads on trails not bike legal. I'm pretty sure the parks department knows, cause they have to get permission to film. The other issue that's not helping around here is the small groups of immature teens(& people in their early 20s) on Surrons & the like not respecting the trails &/or removing features that may cause erosion all for the sake of speed. They act like they have an e-moto with the way they ride. Some of them not even wearing protective gear either, which is another topic. In a related note, I've read that some of the closest sections of the Pacific Crest Trail to me, which isn't bike legal in any of the 3 states, is maintained by the mtb folks. The only reason bikes aren't officially allowed on there is because of the Sierra Club, there was a court case about it, I think in Oregon(need to double-check).
I don't see too many eMTBs around me in NH, and I don't think there's much merit in some of the arguments I see about increased speed and/or weight causing irreparable trail damage. If those concerns are real then everyone is back on fully rigid 26ers with narrow tubed tires and rim brakes because suspension, disk brakes, super grippy tires etc... all enable much faster trail speeds, oh and no one over 200lbs is allowed to ride! I think the biggest area of concern should be the blurry line from between the 3 classes of ebike, and then the Sur'ron type e-dirt bike with pedals. Policing that is a challenge. How do you prove if your bike is 'legal' for a given trail network, or how does someone in authority prove it's 'illegal'? There are also some valid safety concerns whereby someone who might have only ventured 2 or 3 miles on a non-ebike might be able to go 20 miles on an 'full fat' class 1 and put themselves into terrain/situations that they are not experienced and/or equipped for. Some might chalk stuff up to natural selection, but ultimately S&R teams get deployed, expensive resources are used to rescue stranded people, so it's definitely something to consider.
My biggest E-Bikes complaint is that they allow pouges to keep pace with me. So far the E-bikers I have encountered are mostly veteran MTBers with ethics, I have yet to meet the dreaded E-bike pirate poacher that uses the motor to ride off trail lines and features that are only e-bike accesible.
Im curious what area of the world do you live in. Im glad to hear so many of the ebikers in your area bring strong outdoor ethics with them. Here in Sedona, we have a lot of tourists who entered the sport with ebikes as their first mtb. So we have a lot of teaching to do as they're unfamiliar with land use restrictions, etc.
@@BigBrainParty Well, Catalina AZ is a relative touristic Hooterville compared to Sedona, and I am 59 and generally ride with Baby Boomers and Gen Xers, so some of the ethics stuff is probably generationally represented. Like the internet, some of us were here and doing our thing before E-bikes were conceived. I don't mean that as an insult, but rather an exposure thing. I for one am happy that the USFS current policy is one of local and regional control rather that centralized. E-bikes are like DH bikes, they have their place and we are only just figuring it out.
Where I live and ride in SE PA and NJ, eBikes are basically allowed everywhere normal bikes are. It gets a bit more complicated in other areas. I recently did a trip to Davis, WV. "Technically" eBikes are not allowed, but the rule is not enforced and the local shop freely rents eBikes to visitors without restrictions. As far as the "damage to trails" argument, it is purely based on perception as the physics simply don't add up. A normal Class 1 eBike has a maximum power assist of 250 watts. While this is quite a bit more power than the average rider can sustain over a length of time, it is far below what a professional rider can put into the pedals. On a good day, I might be able to put down 300W during a short climb. Under 200W is more realistic and especially during a sustained climb. So when I ride my eBike, it basically allows me to climb almost as fast as a back-of-the-pack Pro. Almost.
Excellent video, but... What's the environmental impact of the emtb? Because if we say no motors, even thou they don't cause emissions or considerable noise, what's the limit there? Are we allowed to bring our cell phones? Drones? If there's no impact, or more impact than an MTB, the prohibition does not make sense.
@@BigBrainParty Unfortunately it sounds like in your area hikers and equestrians are a stronger and more organized/vocal group than mountain bikers. The squeaky wheel gets the oil.
@@BigBrainParty maybe it's time to put the magnifying glass away and let facts and common sense prevail..........not emotions and governmental red tape.
I have an EMTB and I think pedal assist bike should be legal on most MTB trails. But, I expect GREED keep that from happening. People always want more (power) and industry always wants more (profit). Soon EMTBs will blur the lines between low-powered electric bicycles and lightweight electric motorcycles. The current pedal assist 1 & 3 classifications are short sighted and only useful for road and path users where speed limits are more important than trail access. If we don't address Watts (W) and Newton-meters (Nm), we will find it impossible to overcome the issues you presented in this video. Compare DJI's new lightweight EMTB to the almost new Trek Fuel EXe. The DJI delivers 75% more torque (Nm) and 183% peak power (W) in a similar package. Which bike will most people pick? Where will these bikes be in 5-10 years if we don't set reasonable limits? Do we expect the industry to be responsible or to just sell as many bikes as they can? I'm really happy with my Fuel EXe, but that DJI media blitz has me wondering if I need the DJI. Call me greedy. As far as trails go, I ride two MTB trails in my area that do not allow eBikes. Both were built for mountain biking and one of them doesn't allow hiking, jogging or pets. The overwhelming response to me being out there is that a pedal assist bike isn't "the type of eBike they want to keep off of the trails". I was even encourage to ride one of the trails by friends because they know that one of the trail builders rides his EMTB there. I ride a low powered EMTB and I'm not able ride much faster than I could ride a hardtail 10 years ago. I justify my actions because both of these trails were built for MTB and I'm not causing damage or roosting other riders. Call me greedy. Side rant: Will the auto manufactures change the blinding super bright white LED headlights when we demand that our new car has to have super bright LED headlights? Nope, they will just make them brighter because they want profits and we want more light. #greed #blindedbythelight
I can explain why I (and many in the trails advocacy/design wing of trails) dislike eMTBs: I don't actually hate eMTBs per se, I hate what the proponents of eMTBs do/say and the "mine, mine, mine" baggage that the riders of eMTBs bring with them. I want to be clear here, I live in a state (MN) with great singletrack (way better than many people know) and pretty robust eMTB access. Therefore, when I discuss this a bit, know its not coming from some place with few trails and/or access issues you've discussed. I agree with everything you said about the industry doing a dumb here and not caring about the impact of a product. Also, bike shops get a dinger from me for just turning people loose with rentals/purchases and not discussing limitations of rules, etc. However, my big issue is that many proponents of eMTBs have the bad habit of... fudging... shall we say, the truth about access and how access is determined. They attempt to push forward the idea that if normal MTBs are allowed, then eMTBs are allowed by default. (Nope.) They also misuse consumer definition laws, DOT statues, etc. to claim that these supersede local (land manager) authority for the trails. Here in MN a eMTB group was printing up flyers that did all this and included one of the few non-eMTB trails in the state as location where eMTBs could go. These sorts of actions by the proponents of eMTBs have had blow-back. Just a few years ago, trail construction and trail plans were lauded by all. Never would you get any opposition and city's couldn't green light trails fast enough. But starting with a trail in park called Lone Lake, that has changed, with the argument that eMTBs could be used on the trails used as a "reason" not to allow for trail creation. Opponents have (rightfully IMHO) argued the industry has worked hard to "stealth" eMTBs, so they are hard to spot, making enforcement nigh impossible.
Man, that's terrible to hear that relationships are strained and future trail access is perilous. This is a great reminder to me and others about how different areas have different cultures and expectations for trail use. Here in sedona we had someone putting "ebikes legal" stickers over the "no pedal assist" signs of the forest service. Since this is federal land, that type of behavior carries a HUGE penalty.
" the idea that if normal MTBs are allowed, then eMTBs are allowed by default. (Nope.)". Sure would like to hear your justification for that remark. (valid proven reasons would be nice. I have never heard any to date concerning Class 1 e-mtbs).
@@jiw71 From PeopleFromBikes website (eMTB map): "Please remember that on federal, state, county and local trails, eMTB access varies significantly. Generally speaking, any natural surface trail designated for both motorized and non-motorized use is open to eMTBs. eMTBs may not be allowed on trails managed for non-motorized activities. eMTB access on singletrack is different than access to paved and soft surface bike lanes and bike paths. eMTBs are not allowed everywhere traditional mountain bikes are. Always consult with your local land manager for access questions." Land managers can decide to allow or disallow eMTB access, regardless of the state's particular laws and that is true in every state in the USA unless the state specifically prohibits municipal entities them from doing so, though private entities still could (conservation clubs, arboretums, etc.). Here in MN eMTBs are allowed by default for any DNR/DOT trails/right-of-way or on paved city trails paid for with any DNR/DOT funding (MN 169.011/169.222/169.223). Natural surface trails are land manager controlled for eMTB access. EDIT: As I said in my comment above, the majority of singletrack in MN is Class 1 eMTB legal, so there isn't access issues here in MN as their are in some areas. eMTB proponents still fudge the rules about access here in MN (and nationally) though.
@@jiw71 Per the PeopleForBikes eMTB map: "Please remember that on federal, state, county and local trails, eMTB access varies significantly. Generally speaking, any natural surface trail designated for both motorized and non-motorized use is open to eMTBs. eMTBs may not be allowed on trails managed for non-motorized activities. eMTB access on singletrack is different than access to paved and soft surface bike lanes and bike paths. eMTBs are not allowed everywhere traditional mountain bikes are. Always consult with your local land manager for access questions." As far as I know, every state, even those (like MN) that have adopted the 3 class system allow public land managers to manage access. Private lands (conservation clubs, arboretums, etc.) obviously can manage access in any way they desire. Therefore, its not guaranteed a new trail would include eMTB access, as land managers' desires vary. Here in MN eMTBs are automatically legal on DNR created/controlled trails (paved & natural surface) and all DOT trails (paved), as well as road right-of-ways. Additionally, in MN any trail built with DNR funds has to be open to eBikes, including eMTBs. However, those are few in number. Most of our trails are in city properties (parks, urban wildernesses) and most of those are open to eMTBs. If you would like the relevant MN statues, I can list them, though they are only important for MN.
It's important to protect your environment but in order to do so you need to convince other people to do the same and the best way is to show them the beauty and purity. If people can't enjoy it it opens the doors to carelessness... Where I live in Canada some land owners are already revoking rights of way because they don't want electric motorcycles. It's a very hot topic. Pretty sad to me I've been advocating and trail building for years. Some sections are now lost forever it seems.
Regarding emtb, the first level for any discussion any place, is to have some sort of uniformed definition of what a class 1 is vs class 2 etc etc I think this must come from the federal legislative side. As you said, cultures and reasons for limiting such access various location to location, so having a federalized acceptance of what is or isn’t considered “motorized “ is step one I “think” I’ve even seen congressional language from many years ago specifically stating that class 1 emtb shall not be restricted anyplace where a normal analog bike is allowed. But this was many years ago and I’m admittedly not up to speed with current federal rules But once a common definition is agreed upon, then we can start looking at the various reasons each location claims they are not allowed. How to determine enforcement of all of that is a discussion for another time. But this is level 2, as a country we haven’t even achieved level 1 technically. I find it very interesting that places like Arizona and Utah are limiting access to all bikes, I’ve never heard that before. That is really pretty crazy to ban bikes outright in such large areas. I can totally understand some trails being designated for hiking only etc, but banning huge areas to bikes analog or emtb is shocking. Here in so cal, some cities are beholden to old land use agreements that predated the advent of emtb, but turn a blind eye to even thinking of re-looking at said agreements, treating them as gospel for all time, which, is sad because technology and society constantly change and evolve. Locking into language written decades ago and not willing to adapt is shameful on these municipalities imo Also, some cite fire danger because the emtb has a battery. I can see this to a certain extent, especially in ca, where everything is a tinder box ready to go. BUT, the officers patrolling…. Use emtb or class 2, or sometimes trucks etc. the fire danger is even higher from their routine patrols lol. Here in my city, a few years ago, there was an incident where sheriffs needed to be called out onto the fire road close to my house to apprehend a suspect. A decent brush fire erupted and caused evacuations here, because the squad car/suv was parked over dry brush and the engine heat sparked the fire. I’ve yet to hear anything of the sort happening anywhere due to class 1 emtb bike crashing….. I agree and understand with a lot of what you’ve said and there’s a place for everyone I’m sure. But organizations, cities, legislators, and state/federal agencies must adapt. I think a lot of riders forgo the rules because we are simply tired of fighting the uphill battle nobody wants to hear about, that we just overall don’t care. Which isn’t right mind you. But it is what a lot of riders feel I’m sure
I like that you have mentioned that people are going to just want to ban all types of bikes on many roads and trails and limit to hiking and horses. As far as my experience with trail access, I have been with on of the oldest MTB trail advocacy groups in America called MWBA. We became on of the first IMBA groups in California. As you know, after Covid we have seen a huge influx of new trail users. Pre electric bikes we have been seeing haters against any kind of bicycle. Especially when a Mtn biker comes screaming past them and their small children or family dog. The biggest problem we are facing on my local trails is just the fact that they are saturated with hikers on the weekends and somehow a mountain biker is thinking that a little bell 🔔 on their handle bars is supposed to serve as a warning siren 🚨 for hikers to clear off the trail. Personally when I’m riding on the weekends and see hikers I make an extra effort to say 👋 and ask them if they’re ok for me to pass. Sometimes stopping and offering to move off the trail with my bike so they feel comfortable walking around me on an exposed area of the trail.
I ride all over north America. Ive tried a custom ebike . It's not for me. Most trails I ride , the no ebike signs have disappeared, or are ignored. I used to hike tiger mountain in wa. before mountain bikers showed up there. I watched as it became a mainly mountain bike area and there are still hiking trails . One trail , green mountain in Kitsap is hike, bike, moto, and horse. Mostly I see hikers there and I mostly bike there. One of my recent rides was mount pinos Frazier park, ca. Mostly hikers. I bikes to the top where it turns to wilderness and the signs make it very clear, hikers only on the wilderness trails. Ive also been on shared use trails and several miles in realize I've got on the foot only trail...ooops. Also ridden in Santa Cruz, ca on mtb trail that is not legal, yet bikes of all kinds are ripping up and down it. Rode my acoustic bike with a group of ebikers recently at devou Covington KY. Rode with a group in Charleston SC at marrington north mostly acoustic and two people on emtb. A lot of trails I ride, I rarely see emtbs, but they are popping up more frequently. I'm going to get my kid one. She's on a trek marlin 7 Gen 3 currently and it would be more fun ,for me anyway,if she could keep up with me. Maybe for her too. Haven't made up my mind, but probably a specialized turbo levo. I'm kind of a stumpy fan as an all rounder trail bike
so when are you headed to the capital? You have got the right approach and far better at bringing the discussion to the table than most. So many start with all the wrong ideas and an attitude that immediately puts most people in defense mode and it closes the door to any possibility of reaching the goal of making the outdoors 100% accessible to everyone in a safe and shared and beneficial way while promoting conservation and low impact. well done and well said!
I'm from switzerland, here in europe thats all relaxed... EMTB = MTB. there is just the disscussion of that that people get on +2500m mountains, where they do not have the skills.. even shared taril with hikes are normal at least switzerland thanks about the history of the non motorized access! Great to know.
47 years since they passed letting bicycles on some of these trails. People need to understand there is going to be change. I also ADV ride on my motorcycle and snowmobile. Snowmobile is a ton of private land. But the biggest problem is the other trail riders think it is only their trail. Bells on your bike and be courteous. The other problem is the E-dirt bikes that go way to fast for bicycling (non class 1). Then people perceive all E bikes are like them.
With some of my own personal interaction of eMTB riders, some definitely not all come across very arrogant. Almost looking down on analog MTB riders let alone an old man on a hardtail. Bragging how many more miles they can do then me. Very annoying , can we just enjoy riding without anyone running there mouths. So I think that’s were we need to educate some people. Here in NC DuPont state park is in a whirl wind. No E Bikes ! You will get ticketed. Horse back riders, hikers and MTB riders use the same trails. Some are designated just to a specific activity. Constant bickering between the groups is a real concern. If hikers and Horseback riders could get rid of bikes all together they most certainly would. Thankfully the local bike shop doesn’t even rent or sell e-bikes. So that a huge help on there part. We also have a Surron bike problem. They think the should be able to go on any trail a mountain bike can. They don’t see a difference at all. Entitled people think they can do what ever they want.
It's all about advocacy, I'm all about e-bikes but lets all be honest here..they have a motor. But I still don't think they damage trails at all...the weight dispute isn't an issue since we all vary in weight from 200+ to 120+, the bike weight really doesn't matter. Maybe it's the speed, but they are governed. So it's more about advocacy and hikers/horses and gasoline/throttle bikes.
Also, speaking to how different management agencies manage the land differently, this shouldn’t be the case when it comes to access and use as a general rule of thumb. Again, out here, one city will allow emtb, the next one over does not. The trails connect with each other, the land shares the same hills and what not. If a fire breaks out on one side it is equally able to affect the other. This discrepancy is so ridiculous it’s maddening. I think that if emtb are allowed in one area, all similar areas in the country should allow emtb, all things being equal. Certain specifics may be exceptions here and there but brand large the general rule should be consistency regardless of which agency manages the land. Also, it’s very difficult for the average person on a bike who just wants to get out for a ride, to really be expected to fully understand all the ins and outs of who governs and manages the land where. That’s not a reasonable expectation for most people. Avid enthusiasts will often times be interested to learn more and seek that info out but the common person looking to take the family out for the afternoon won’t be thinking of that. There’s room for everyone involved to improve, for sure. But we need consistency from out government first. Sadly, there are many larger fish to fry in this world that who can bike where doesn’t really have a chance to even get to the table of discussion in Washington…
I can definitely see why some hikers don't want emtb or mtbs on the same trails they use. But, I ride a lot of mixed use trails here. And see hikers short cutting switch backs do going off trail as often as I see other bikers do it. So, I also have a hard time taking them to seriously. Every user group does some trail damage. And, I'll disagree on one item though. I believe any trail open to mtb should be open to class 1 and 2 emtb. If it has a throttle take it to a moto trail. I do love riding moto trails, so that's not any kind of ding against them. Those guys seem to build better trails then most mtb groups anymore. They don't do "flow"! But, I guess thats a whole nother video.
Thanks for sharing an objective, logical and well explained video for this hot issue... It's the child inside of us that stops us from finding solutions. Below are two examples that represents the child behaviors inside of us; -Think of a child that has a toy that they won't share. It doesn't matter if they ever use it, they won't share. -Think of a child that doesn't care who's toy it is. They have no thought too who owns it. They don't care if the toy becomes damaged. By nature humans are very territorial, selfish, invasive and controlling. We are narcissistic. The irony is this land was taken from the native population who had lived here for thousands of years. How much say do they have on the subject?
My local trail managers have for the time being said no eMTB access without a medical condition. Aside from that, that the industry is pushing and selling a free-for-all of bikes that don't meet the class standards that permissible trails allow. There are significant issues with erosion in the area, and then some uneducated person on an ebike full throttles their way to the top of the trail. We need more buy-in from current and potential eMTB riders to be conscientious stewards.
Controversial topic, is putting it mildly. I agree with 95% of everything you said. Do I think bikes or e-bikes should be allowed on all trails of course not. Do we need to protect what we have for future generations, yes of course we do. Do I think that out of towners are probably the biggest problem on the trails, especially when they just leave trash everywhere, you bet. I think the only point you missed is the human nature aspect of all this. I think this is probably at the forefront of the battle between bikes and hikers and the constant negative interactions between the two groups. The 1% of hikers and bikers that are just flat out rude and disrespectful to each other out on the trail is what is as I see the problem. I do not personally feel that being on a e-bike is the problem. I have had the same positive and negative interactions on both e-bike and regular bike. Those interactions have been all based on the individual or Individuals that I have come into contact. For myself and the people we ride with, we always follow trail etiquette no matter what. We always have a bell on our bikes, in which we are constantly told thank you for that and do everything in our power to make our interactions a positive one, and in most cases they are. My two cents is this, I do not think that bike or the feet is the core issue, I believe it is a human nature issue and the lack of respect for each other that is the root of the problem.
Great points! I agree that trail etiquette is so important for all users, and a few bad apples can ruin it for the rest of us. At least here in Sedona, most of the local hikers are VERY aware of ebikes and most are NOT fans. Fortunately, most are respectful, but i have definitely noticed higher tensions between hikers and mtbs since ebikes have been poaching trails here. It's easier for the hikers to protest ALL bikes, since inevitably ebikes will be riding on mtb trails. Unfortunately it's easier for land managers to close access than it is to manage it. I've seen it time and time again: we're not capable of self-regulation and abiding by the laws, it's easier for land owners to close access than it is to enforce and manage it.
@@BigBrainParty I fully agree. There needs to be some sort of open forum were both sides can sit down and respectfully discuss the topic. I still think that there is a lack of understanding what a pedal assist e-bike actually is.
@@edwardsamarin I definitely yhink this is the way forward. I see a lot of potential to change attitudes by educating other trail users with impact studies, demos, case studies, and success stories.
They do have a motor - electric or not. I dont love seeing Ebikes on certain trails here in the front range Ill be honest. I certainly see hikers and equestrians POV's. the people trying to get things banned or shut down really should do their research first though. so long as it does not harm environmentally people will just get used to it. we should be educating more people about trail conservation ever since COVID since the amount of people using outdoor spaces seems to have spiked.
Agreed, our job as etiquette educators became even more important after covid. We have so many new trial users who haven't been taught about outdoor ethics and leave no trace principles. I have immense hope that as more people get out in nature, more people will want to take care of it.
I don't have any problems with emtbs. I just have a problem with all the people who ride them on trails marked "no emtb". I'm in Prescott AZ I see them every time I go ride.
So how are ebikes impacting the quality of the trails? When you ride can you tell that the last person to ride before you was on an ebike? Would you rather follow 10 people on horses down the trail or 5 people on ebikes?
@@TomTom-gt5ff I really don't think they are impacting the trails at all, and personally even though I don't have an e bike I hope they change the rules to allow them. But just because we don't agree with the rules doesn't give us the right to just ignore them. We should respect the land and it's rules. And that's what I have a problem with.
So...when can we expect ebike party? :) As far as eMTBs, they have run me off the well-known trails here. Just too much traffic & not everyone cares for etiquette. I can always find somewhere else to ride, and don't let it pee in my pudding, so don't really care either way. I'm not getting any younger & it'll be nice to have the option if I don't age as well as I'd like. I do have a Trek Allant as a car-replacer and it's amazing. We're lucky to be able to use them on city bike infrastructure. Yeah, there's always that guy, but all things considered, I'm personally embracing it all.
Great info however I’m interested in mountain biking, not being an activist. I think at some point they’ll be so many riding emtbs on non emtb trails that the rules will have to change. I’m not about to waist the next 10 years of my life not riding great trails like Sedona on an emtb. Enjoy like, act ignorant, and ignore haters.
I appreciate the candor and transparency. I know that you're not the only one who feels this way. Im saddened i wasn't able to sway you into school of thought #2 through this discussion. Unfortunately, school of thought #1is the exact attitude and behavior that puts our access in jeopardy. I believe you're right; if everyone ignores trail usage rules, things will definitely change: they're going to shut down access it for ALL bikes, since we can't play by the rules. Trail access is a privilege and it only works if we respect the boundaries. Think of it this way: if people just started throwing trash on the ground everywhere on trails, this mentality would suggest "eventually the forest service will change things and put garbage cans where we throw our trash." Except that's not how it works. They'd close the trail since we dont respect the rules. Forest rangers are soread thin ans they're not capable of patrolling every trail all the time. Eventually, it becomes a losing battle and rayher than grant access, they shut it down. It's far easier for the land owners to close trails than to police them. This attitude is already leadong to trail closures. School of thought #1 definitely exists, but it's not the way to get more access, it's a way to get more trails shut down to all MTBs. Despite knowing this, some people will still choose to ride anyway and risk it for the rest of us.
@@BigBrainParty I guess I’m used to thinking about things in a capitalistic way. If there’s demand for something the market creates a supply. Maybe private bike parks and local government are the future for more emtb access. I much prefer more natural trails than groomed though. Different areas definitely think about things differently. For instance it’s normal to use bells in CA but when using one in Sedona about every hiker thanked me. The trails in Sedona honestly aren’t great for mixed hike and bike use. Maybe more trails could be off limits to hikers and open to emtb. You really never see hikers on trails in Bentonville. The trials in Sedona really aren’t beginner friendly and emtb riders, at least now tend to be beginners. Maybe all green trials could be open to emtb. I usually spend around a month in Sedona in the winter but if I lived there it might be a tougher decision to continually break the law. Steve, you should probably move to Bentonville.
It's not the bike. Poor form makes us all look bad. Unfortunately, making something easier attracts (inexperienced) newcomers and enables them to access areas that historically see low traffic. Most of these newcomers don't yet have a sense of trail etiquette or the rules and this is where the conflict occurs. It reflects poorly on the "mountain bikers" who had to work for years developing their fitness just to be able to enjoy remote areas and big rides. When you spend years paying your dues, you meet people of like mind and become part of the "biking culture". At the top of a big climb or tens of miles from the trailhead, there is nothing but respect between riders because we know what it took to get there. Most new e-bike users do not yet understand the biking culture, respect for the outdoors, and other trail users. I'm not saying that all mountain bikers are nice people. And, we can't mandate that only considerate people are allowed to ride e-bikes on trails. When something is hard, the people who practice and develop their skills tend to have a lot more respect and appreciation. I'm 60 YO and plan to rock a "mountain bike" for many years, but one day I'll be on an e-bike and nobody will notice because I'm a mountain biker.
I really appreciate you giving the historical perspective and a very thoughtful opinion. I also think you just touched the surface on an issue unique to SoCal in general and San Diego specifically. There is so much to unpack there, but i do apologize if people have brought the SoCal mentality to Sedona. The place is beautiful, and i would hate to see MTB access get further limited.
I feel bad for socal. They've never been given a seat at the table in these land-use discussions. No matter how polite they are in socal, i dont see land managers ever opening their arms to them. So I sympathize. I can see why their only real option is to ride illegal trails. So if ebikes are on them, it's not hurting the cause because the cause is dead. I think it's fascinating to hear how different areas have different cultures regarding trail access. Here in Sedona, the Sedona MTB fest donates hundreds of thousands of dollars to our trail groups. This pays for toilet paper in the outhouses, parking, trail maintenance, and more. So here in Sedona, we actually do have a seat at the table for a lot of these discussions. We don't want to lose it because of rogue trail use.
@@BigBrainParty The Ebikes on the San Diego bay bikeway are the worst since they are riding at 20 to 30 MPH on the bike path between Imperial Beach and Coronado. I have seen accidents between road bikes and EBikes and I also seen tourist crash on these Ebikes since they are not used to the speed. Then you have the teens on Surron bikes riding extremely fast and dangerous and can potentially crash on seniors\kids riding regular bikes. I'm not sure that there are even rules on what the speed limit is on the bikeway, but basically we have the same problem Sedona, but at the bayshore bikeway. Its pretty much tourist not caring when they rent these Ebikes or not being aware of the speed they are riding.
Bad etiquette and "trail erosion" or littering is happening by everyone. Not an eMTBer yet, but I am personally convinced that eMTBs do not wear out the trails outside of allowing you to ride for longer. So minute for minute riding, it is the same kind of wear, or at least the same time of wear per minute per lbs of "system" weight. We don't discriminate against "heavy" riders, there should be no argument for "heavy" bikes either. Definately not on trails where horses are riding, which are by far the worst offenders for trail errosion - at least in SoCal and from my experience. Also, what needs to be changed is the access for Surron/eMotos, i.e. electric bikes with throttles and at a minimum 10x the sustained power output of assisted pedal bikes which - if they have pedals - are just to trick the letter of the law. It is those that roam SoCal trails and paths, often in "gangs" of teenagers or preteen level of sophistication adults that poach and tread on everything, and are the typical type to give you the "don't tread on me with regulations/i won't do what you tell me" treatment. Because irony.
You're never going to get e-bikers to respect trail designations. I wish we could put the e-bike toothpaste back in the tube, but it's out, and we're just going to have to live with its impacts on the sport. Hopefully they won't kick us all out.
In my opinion. The conflict is from traditional mountain bikers rather than hikers and equestrians . Since hikers and equestrians can’t tell the difference, they typically don’t care however traditional mountain bikers are the people having an issue with Ebikes because we can tell and are typically able bodied people from what I can tell. I think E bikes have a place for elderly or disabled people but other than that, I think able bodied people should ride “A real MTB”.
Ill bet the conflicts and reasons are different in different parts of the world. Here in sedona, hikers and equestrians can't distinguish an ebike like mtbers can. They don't know what a motor looks like, or which models have motors and dont. They make assumptions based on speed of travel and whether they can hear a motor. Even though they can't tell which have motors, they're VERY aware that eMTBs exist and most hikers are NOT fans. When I used to be healthy and I could climb fast, or I would drive a gearbox bike , I would often get yelled at by hikers because they assumed I was on an ebike because of my climbing speeds and because the gearbox looks like a motor and the belt makes noise somewhat similar to a motor. Since they can't distinguish between mtbs and emtbs, it's easier for them to lump us all into the same group and treat all MTBers as if they were ebikes. Im sure the culture is different in other areas, but here tensions are high. When I caught a lady sabotaging our legal mtb trails, she said it's because she's sick of emtbs, (which nobody in our group was riding.) she doesn't care if im on a mtb or emtb, just as long as i dont ride her favorite trails.
@@jeffsharp4982 i wonder if that's because we're in an ecochamber and we dont hang out on hiker youtube channels or forums. I'm sure it also depends on the region in question. I know in some areas, hikers don't care if we're in emtbs or not, and other areas are hyper aware.
@@jeffsharp4982 true statement. I will say if you respected hikers and equestrians, they respect you. Always give them the right of way. The little things make a big difference.
Why is everyone in the comments acting like emtb riders are a whole new group of users, (of mountain bikes)? I realize it is anecdotal, but the vast number of emtb users in my city are people who are already mountain bikers.
Excellent video. I live in an area where e-MTBs can ride the same trails as regular bikes (UK) but ride every year in places like Moab and BC. For me the question is, do e-MTBs cause more trail damage or do e-MTB riders put other trail users more at risk. I ride over 4,000 miles a year off-road and think the answer is probably ‘no’. If you think e-MTBs cause more damage because they are heavier, do we want to put limits on rider weight? Cos the 220lb rider may cause more damage than me at 160lb.. Last year in Moab, we started seeing e-MTBs on dedicated MTB trails pretty much every day and I can see that unless the rules change, land managers may think about banning all bikes.There are trails in Moab where I dont think trail erosion is a risk so I would hope we could have a rational discussion where wider access vs trail maintenance can be balanced. I ride a regular bike but ride a lot with my wife on an e-MTB. Currently, I cant ride with her in places like Moab, unless we want to stick to Jeep trails. When we go to BC, even I use an e-MTB when we are outside the bike park as with the large elevation, it’s definitely the best tool for the job. More rational discussion please!
If you feel this is an important thing for people to learn about, please share this video with others to increase understanding.
As always, I'm impressed with the respectful and informed comments from Big Brain aubscribers. Thank you for watching the whole video before commenting and thank you for sharing your comments in a respectful manner.
Many of the issues discussed here are unique to the western US: Arizona, Colorado, and Utah, where there is a huge amount of national public land and a long history of different trail users deciding who should be allowed to recreate here. Much of this debate was going on long before ebikes came to the scene, but anytime we introduce a new recreational vehicle/instrument, we need to discuss how it fits in with existing trail usage rules.
When commenting, I'd love to hear what part of the world you live in and what the climate is like there for trail users.
To learn more about Moab's trail closures, including Gemini Bridges rd, right next to Mag 7, read here: www.moabtimes.com/articles/blms-labyrinth-rims-travel-plan-closes-28-of-ohv-routes/
I bought my first MTB in 1984 when the Specialized StumpJumper was introduced. Now that I am 73, I find the mid-motor eBike I bought in 2019 allow me to ride in spite of heart disease and bad knees. I ride an hour each morning to insure I live longer. I try to be a good ambassador for electric bikes while making evert effort to NOT to blame those riders with throttles and 1000 watt kit bikes riding at 30 mph for the division between the various facets in the bicycle world. I rarely pass non-eBike riders on hills and nod or smile to everyone our enjoying the outdoors. Many are having none of it. Few of my fellow riders here in Salt Lake City acknowledge those with battery on their frame. Fortunately most of the runners, even the pros in training, do acknowledge a fellow human out getting some exercise. Hallelujah! Thanks for the video.
"Seek to understand and then to be understood"
I need to remember this
There are many hidden disabilities, for those who are ASD/ADHD as I am, communication is extremely challenging, and all interaction with neurotypical people, is defined by my being misunderstood and my inability to understand.
So Steve's extremely enlightened comment is something, I will personally use myself in future (with your permission of course)
In my opinion the biggest problem with EMTBs is they allow "regular" people to ride in nature. And by regular i mean, just people, unfiltered. When covid started and there was a huge rush in outdoor sports, i noticed a BIG spike in the amount of trash in the forests, more trails widened to highways, signs of burnt plastic in fireplaces, etc... With regular MTBs if you want to be deep out in the forest (not bikeparks), you sure have to be fit, which requires regular training, which usually means you'll have some respect to the area you're in. Bad people won't put that much effort into having fun.
Now, ebikes has allowed some of these bad people to try this sport, but without having any respect to nature, or to the general culture of outdoor activities. Previously we had this big filter, that stopped them from going further. Now, they can go with ease. But the same proportions are everywhere, on roads, workplaces, online... So it's more of a human problem, not a vehicle problem.
But of course, this new technology allows you and so many other people to enjoy this sport without being restricted to the base of the mountain. I think it far outweighs the drawbacks.
Also, you could ride your 25+kg ebike for a thousand years and not do the damage in forests that loggers do in a single day.
There's definitely a need for more outdoor ethics education among all usergroups. I'm glad more people are getting out in nature than before, but I also realize that many new recreationists aren't aware of leave no trace principles and other trail ethics. I hope that the more time people spend in nature, the more they'll want to take care of it, especially with a little education of how best to do that.
I think we are lucky in SoCal that there is very little friction or issues between analog and E MTB riders. I really don't see any discernable difference in ethics or land use practices between the two groups. We all try to leave as little trace and to be as respectful as possible with hikers. The less we draw attention to ourselves, the better down here
Yeah, the government shut down created a once in a lifetime situation. I was out mtn biking and came across this family who were hiking. They were a little turned around and as I passed they asked me a question. So, I stopped and gave them some options to get back to the trail head. In the meantime, there two elementary aged children were running all around both on and off the trail. I informed the mother that her children were running through poison oak. She was clueless to what that was. I said look it up, they will be getting a blister rash in about 2-3 days.
It's interesting because the trails local to my work where I ride during lunch a lot, the more dog walkers I see, the more trash I see. But on these bigger trail systems, I do thin your right to some degree. There seems to be an issue with people not "getting it" when it comes to not leaving trash everywhere. The problem is, to anybody with some "common sense" they know not to throw trash on the ground, but "training" those people won't to anything. They're probably the same people that throw trash out of the their car window.
This is possibly the dumbest comment I read since I joined RUclips in 2008…
I coach on a Nica team in Arkansas, and I can without a doubt tell you that even on my e-bike I have a hard time leading our faster riders. It's all I can do to stay in front and lead them, and I've been riding for years. I also know that at 60 with bum knees an e-bike is the only way I can enjoy a pain free ride. It has become harder to ride in the mountains in Colorado or New Mexico as my knees have gotten worse, and not many trails are approved, but I have found trails around Angel Fire and the past three years that's where I've gone and spent my money. I wish that people could simply decide to get a long and get over the hate for whatever type of mountain bike others are riding. Anyway, I have always enjoyed your videos, and I'm glad that most of the trails in Arkansas allow e-bikes. "edited" I forgot to mention, that my e-bike sure makes it easier to do trail work miles away from the trailhead.
I am not an e-biker yet, but I have met a lot of guys on pedal bikes who complain about e-bikes "destroying the trail." I don't see how that is possible. My Stumpy Evo with its fat downtube gets confused for an e-bike by other riders and park rangers. Everything is good after I show people the inside of my SWAT cage. Steve, you are a stud by any measure! I will be praying for you during mass again.
I've actively avoided buying bikes with fat downtubes because I was afraid people would think I was on an e-bike. I guess my fears were warranted 😅
Ebikes do no more damage to trails than normal mtbs, unless the rider actively tries to damage trail surfaces (skidding, spinning rear wheel on loose surfaces etc).
There are actually three schools of thought with regards to using land for recreational purposes: 1. I don't want to be engaged and just want to use the land. 2. I want to be engaged in the upkeep of this beautiful trail system because I want to use it. 3. I don't want any user group to have access, and I will use whatever laws I can to STOP YOU from using it.
I’m personally torn on this subject and have a pretty similar take to other people in the comment section. On one hand, eMTBs do provide access to a sport that might be otherwise off-limits to a certain percentage of the population and I believe you or Martyn Ashton are perfect examples of this. However, this same enabling aspect of eMTBs eschews barriers that have been long standing mores within not just the MTB community but the entire cycling world. Having *effectively* an FTP of something like 350W traditionally only comes with hours upon hours on the saddle which naturally builds bike handling skills as well. Instantly having access to this kind of power without the fundamental skills, understanding of trail etiquette, and hard learned lessons to back it up is a recipe for damaged trails. As a trail builder, the issue I personally have with eMTBers, at least in southern California, is the overall lack of skill in many of the riders. For every one respectful eMTBer there are a dozen Freds locking their brakes, cutting ruts into descents, and creating shortcuts on switch-back climbs and new trail spurs around features they’re not comfortable riding. In addition to that, you are absolutely correct about eMTBers in Southern California poaching trails here and from what I can tell, it’s due to no enforcement. Anecdotally, while performing trail maintenance at my local network, the only people I have had go around “Trail Closed for Maintenance” signs are eMTBers as well.
Love the video. Could not have said it better myself. It’s honestly so refreshing to hear someone be calm and thoughtful about this subject. I ride and run/hike all the same trails and systems around me, and your point about who we’re convincing is so poignant. When I’m on my bike I just do my best to treat people how I want to be treated when I’m on foot, and I’ve always had super positive interactions (also, I’m a bad, slow rider so I don’t have to slow down much lmao). The only negative trail interactions I’ve had have been on foot, being buzzed by on single track by ebikers sans helmets who gave me no warning, and, interestingly enough, with a pretty famous rider who almost took me out on a blind corner. I think the point many are making about “earning” the ability to really bike on the trails is correct. I definitely learned a lot about etiquette and culture while I was getting fit enough to go for real rides, and if you don’t have to go through that, that’s a problem. I’m proud of what I’ve personally accomplished physically and mentally with my bike, but I don’t think everyone should have to go through that. But how do you skip that step and still end up with responsible users?
Some people are just rude. They’re like that in all aspects of their life. Putting them on a bicycle, e-bike or even as a hiker for any amount of time generally doesn’t make them nicer. I ride the full range of mountain bikes, my favorite being the Ibis Ripley, but I also occasionally ride a trek fuel EXE and a trek rail mid and full power ebikes, respectively. Cruising on the full power or slogging up a treacherous climb on the ibis Ripley, I am always happy to be out on two wheels and greet everybody I pass. it is amazing to me the number of people on bikes and hiking who never respond and aren’t even Happy. They don’t even look like they are enjoying themselves.
Relatively recent convert to the eMTB world. At 54 and with a heart condition that has required 2 surgeries, I held out and rode analog for a long time and kept getting slower and more miserable on rides. Since going eMTB, I’m having more fun mountain biking than I have in almost 20 years. And, I’m in better - not worse - aerobic shape. It’s a game changer. The mostly federal land management stance that class 1 eMTBs are the equivalent of motorcycles is woefully outdated and horribly incorrect.
Thanks for the video. I have no problems with my e-bikes in my area here in NorCal or Tahoe in the Sierras. I also ride analog bikes, hike and trail run lots. I got onto trail running since some of the local single tracks are off limits to any bikes. Trail running solved that problem. So instead of poaching trails I just morphed!
Super glad you are able to get out on the emtb. I am 53 and have been riding since 1991, started on a rigid frame ironhorse then onto zaskar hardtail which I loved. I ride a xc race fs bike, ripmo af with a coil and a giant reign e+2 emtb. I love all of them for different reasons but the emtb is hands down the most fun I have ever had on a bike going all the back to bmx when I was 10 yrs old. The "purists" who argue about earning descents is the same stuff I heard from hikers in 90's then mtbr's when full suspension bikes came onto scene. I live in Jeffco county in Colorado which legalized class 1 emtb in 2018 and the sky has not fallen, trails are still there and everyone coexists. Ride on Steve!
It is a culture of entitlement and wanting everything now.
It should be a culture of being greatful for what we have not what we dont have. We owe it to future generations.
Thankful for your channels Steve. Good to see you out in the sunshine.
Great video. First, happy to see you riding Steve. I was in Kingdom Trails 2 weeks ago an came across a lady of 70+ with her sons and family members. She was riding an e-bike and I was so impressed that she was able to follow her crew and enjoy the beautiful day we all had. As long as everyone be careful of others, I'm fine with e-bikes!
Pedal assist bikes 250w or under(speed limited to 25km/h) are just put in the same category(for access) as pedal bikes here in Aus, so they are just a normal thing to see on all MTB trails. NZ and the EURO zone are similar.
Some people hate them but haters are everywhere, I'll bag out friends that have them but I know they are fun but Very expensive.
Trail damage is basically non-existent and most of the newer trails are designed with EMTBs in mind, electric dirt bikes are a very different thing here in Aus and are treated the same as a two-stroke dirt bike etc (licence, registration and specific riding areas)
I was wondering what Aus rules were like. Thanks for chiming in!
@@BigBrainParty Another factor i should have mentioned is that "most"(depends on the area) of the MTB trails here are single use only so no hikers etc
My northwest Arkansas city just passed a misguided ban of class 2 and 3 e-bikes on soft-surface trails. Every justification cited was describing not e-MTBs but e-motos (electric dirt bikes that are much more powerful). People making these decisions don't seem to know the difference.
They also outlawed class 3 e-bikes on paved bike paths because they're capable of exceeding 15 mph, a rule that makes as much sense as banning all sports cars from roads.
I ride on Vancouver Island and there is starting to be a fair number of ebikes on all the trail networks. In almost all networks the pedal assist are allowed. I personally don't ride an ebike but I have no issues at all with ebikes on the trail. There are inconsiderate riders on all platforms, so yes an uninformed ebike rider 'could' ride up a trail they shouldn't but I have rarely heard of this being an issue. I have a friend who due to a health issue couldn't ride if he didn't ride an ebike, we ride together and he simply goes my pace on the acoustic.
I think the discussion shouldn't be ebike vs non-ebike but rather education/consideration on how to properly use trails.
Thanks for the video on the subject.
I think this is a great perspective. I'd much prefer to be healthy and be able to ride an acoustic bike than to have to rely on an ebike .
In the area I live in bordering
LA/ Ventura county e-bikes have become the norm on my local trails. I really don’t see any restrictions at the trailheads other than non-motorized only. Sometimes on a Saturday ride I feel I’m definitely in the minority not riding an e-bike. It does follow the larger trend that I see in the local bike shops that are stock full of e-bikes.
I think there should be certain restrictions on E-bikes. They do impact the trails especially steeper trails where the motors torque digs into loose ground more.The other problem is the speed differential with the hiker. Before the e-bike hikers only had to contend with the speed of bikes traveling downhill. With the e-bike the hiker has to contend with speed differences on climbing too.
If there are restrictions put in place 1) such as not letting e-bikes on steep trails 2) removing “turbo” modes and requiring bells on all E-bikes.
I think E-Bikes should be allowed in more areas. It seems overly restrictive in Sedona.
Well put. I used to be a motorcyclist and I converted to mountain biking a few years ago and found there’s a lot of places to ride mountain bikes. It’s great. There’s very few places to ride motorcycles. My concern is that we’ll start losing MTB trail access because of e bikes. If people insist on claiming that e-bikes are mountain bikes, and that e-bikes should be allowed anywhere mountain bikes are, then those who are opposed to e bikes might ban both e bikes and mountain bikes because “they’re the same thing”.
The fact that skidding through a corner is not only acceptable but is almost mandatory in every bike ad, tells me how much the bike industry cares about trails and access. Most of the "good behavior" of mountain bikers in the 90's was born out of the fear of loosing access... I'm hoping we aren't about to learn our lesson the hard way again.
Agreed It breaks my heart. Kids (and adults) see people skidding around the corners on the edits, then they duplicate it on the trail. Short-sighted behavior.
to be fair the bike industry has been doing this type of advertising well before e-bikes came on the scene. Gary Fisher was the king of "sliding through corners".
@@jiw71 Very true. I always assumed they didn't know any better back then but It probably was, and still is, the basic advertising need to show how bad ass you'll be on one of their bikes.
@@BigBrainPartySome people think, if their not Shredding the trails their not having fun...
These are my random thoughts on the subject...
Firstly, I live in the UK where road legal ebikes are limited to 15mph and they have to be pedal assist, no press and go. Also, the default rule is that MTBs are allowed on bridleways (equestrian trails) unless there is a specific ruling for that trail.
I'm fully with you on cooperating with other trail users and avoiding conflict as its the only way to make rules that people will respect but many non-bike trail users are sceptical about ebikes because they don't understand them. I think its important for all concerned to discuss what it is about ebikes they don't like and as I see it there are three main concerns, one is safety of other trail users, another is damage to the trail and the third is the nuisance factor.
As I see it normal eMTBs are no worse than a big guy riding a standard analog MTB in terms of safety (speed and weight) or trail damage. What worries some trail users is that they confuse eMTBs with e-motorbikes like a SurRon which obviously is a lot faster, heavier and does more trail damage than an MTB.
Worth mentioning, when it comes to trail damage horses do a lot more damage than MTBs or eMTBs, they weigh a shed load more and have a small footprint to spread that weight. For the safety of hikers, they can cause serious injury to their rider or a hiker if spooked (e.g I know people who have been thrown by their horse because of noises like clanking pans hanging off a backpack).
When it comes to the nuisance factor eMTBs may cause more people to use bikes on some trails which is important to consider but people were worried about that in the 70s and we've mostly found a happy balance I'd say?
Great video - thanks for addressing the issues in a thoughtful manner. A few of my observations and thoughts from former SoCal and now the PNW. The higher speed that EMTBs travel require harder braking and from what I have seen, there is more skidding which over time does degrade trails. I am a long time bicycle enthusiast, both road and MTB including tandem MTBs. I also ride off road motorcycles and have competed in Observed trials events for years. So, I have a little experience. Some peoples idea of EMTBs are a stretch, pedals hung on what is basically an electric motorcycle. The plethora of 'Amazon' fat tire e bikes, RADs, etc is disturbing to me. I am all for people getting out on bikes, and if an EMTB helps those with disabilities do so or others who would otherwise not get out and ride, then I fully support that and those people. But I have had one too many newbies on ebikes who would otherwise not be on the trail if not for a motor, pass me closely, kicking up dust with no regard for disturbing my sense of peace or safety. I would like to see those who purchase a EMTB (or MTB for that matter) be required to have some sort education regarding trail etiquette and conservation. People are people and you are always going to have a few bad actors that spoil it for the others. Excessively loud off road motorcycles comes to mind. I must admit, I do not understand the love of ebikes or EMTBs. I ride for exercise and the the love of the outdoors and while I understand you can go further on an EMTB...whats the point? You have the added complexity, destroy drivetrains that were never intended for powered bikes and produce more e waste. These are just my opinions and you know what they say about opinions ;-)
Excellent thoughts, thank you for chiming in and adding to the discussion. I remember we discussed similar education courses for people buying side by sides. When side by sides were introduced to the market, motos and jeepers were up in arms because of how capable they are and how little outdoor ethics education there was among a large segment of the usergroup.
Interesting piece. I'm curious where your 98% of trails in So Cal are illegal/poached number comes from?
Regarding e-bikes, I own one, and I ride it and my regular bike I ride both more or less the same. The biggest issue I see is with e-bikes is riders not with bikes themselves. Novice riders blasting by people up hill at 15 miles an hour or passing others with no bell, not saying anything going 3-4x faster than the people they are passing or shouting "on your left" and expecting everyone to scramble out of their way whether it is safe or not. There's a startle factor that makes people mad, trail etiquette really helps in most cases.
Love Steve's take accounting for historical context to areas and why/how they got setup the way the did. I quit riding dirtbikes because I was sick of having to drive hours through empty public lands all the way to the Rez in order to ride, it just wasn't worth the time in the car...I feel like mountain biking is hanging on by a thread without realizing it!!! Stuff like this gets put to a public vote and there are 1000 non-riders for every one rider and they could care less if we lose access. Here in Socal we have all the kids riding full on E mini dirtbikes in traffic and all around town, average people dont even know they are different from bikes. We also have e-foil surfboards which can be considered personal water craft/boats or can be thought of as just e-surfboards depending on your perspective...whew its complex, and it doesn't help that it all gets tied up in the rhetoric of electronic cars/"green" transportation...
Good stuff Steve. You articulated the entire thing very well. I've been worried about e-bikes removing trail access. I think there are a lot of great reasons to allow bikes and e-bikes in more places. But I also agree with you that having specific trails for the specific use cases is also needed. At the end of the day, we all just want to go outside and do the sport/activity that we enjoy. Hopefully as humans we'll be able to come up with something that everyone can agree on. I think another possibility of trail access being messed up is the growing popularity of off road one wheels. I could see some legislature related to them and motors affecting the e-cycling access but even possibly analog as well.
Personally, as long as an e-mtb is pedal assist, key word assist, they should be allowed anywhere "analog" bikes are.
The problem is with that percentage of riders who don't obey the rules or feel they own the trail and don't respect other users, abuse the trails or blaze along w/o any consideration for the consequences. I myself prefer good technical singletrack over flow style, but I am seeing the riders who are out thrill seeking, taking that same attitude to the normal singletrack, going as far as to changing or adding jumps and redirecting trails. This applies to both e-mtb and analog bikers.
This is how we got it in Finland. Pedal assist or analog both ok as per everyone's rights, while motorcycles are not without landowners permission.
So many great perspectives here. As a reformed emtb hater and someone who just put a deposit down on an SL ebike so my wife can enjoy the singletrack with me where legal, this video could not have given me more to reflect and research about
Im so glad it helped. Im in the market for an SL ebike as well. The full powered ones aren't my favorite, but i need some sort of assistance. I'm excited to experiment with more sl ebikes to see which one I click with.
Great video and love the perspectives. Full disclosure: I very much dislike the pedal assist crowd because of so many experiences with them here in AZ. I’d love for education to be the answer, I just don’t think that can happen because of all the rentals.
We have too many bikers of all types now that these new motorized ones have been introduced and not enough trails. The only thing I can think of is having a note from your doctor to get a small disabled plate like they have on cars to display while you ride, allowing pedal assists with the placard more trails. If you don’t have it, you’re not allowed. Of course who’s going to enforce that? It’s the wild west out there, man. Unless we think a little out of the box though, we all might get banned.
Great discussion Steve!!! My best friend recently bought a cheaper e-bike and now he can join me on my 100+ km gravel rides. Before when we road together he could ride maybe 15-25 km before the lactic acid in his legs got him. Now with the e-bike and a spare battery he can join me on my 5+ hour rides with coffee stops and adventure riding!!! I ride my single speed Kona Unit and he has his e-bike, I set the pace and he stays with me and on some hills he will push the pace which pushes me and makes for a even greater ride!!! I believe e-bikes are the fastest growing part of the bike industry, loses of R/D going into it and even Honda, Yamaha, Harley Davidson are building e-bikes and investing in that space. I ride single speed bikes but have to issue with e-bikes. Many friends ride them for various reasons most because of physical limitations. I believe if it gets you off the couch, makes you feel better. And helps improve your health it’s great 👍.
Great video as always! I enjoy all the perspectives you provide and I learned some history I did not know. Thanks!
In our area there are some trails open to everything, some hike only, some bike only, etc. I think thats OK. I don’t want to come across a hiker when I’m bombing downhill, but some places should be reserved for hikers to not worry about bikes!
eMTB is not an issue as long as the trails allow it, but please don’t ride my rear tire when I’m hoofing it uphill just because you can go faster! Its not safe. When its wide enough to pass I will gladly let you by.
".... but please don’t ride my rear tire when I’m hoofing it uphill j...." Curious......... how many times that has happened to you?
Its not every time, but Im also not too shocked when it happens.
I attribute it to people who don’t usually ride getting on an eMTB to get to the top to ride the flow trails. They don’t look like the experienced riders who are usually chill.
Vast majority of San Diego is open to eMTBs; usually see a 50-50 split on the popular trails. Don't seem to be any trail conflicts with users, hikers, equestrians and regular analog MTB riders. We are all 20+ year former analog MTB riders with skills. We used to do an annual trip to Sedona, but after diving more into the eMTB usage (have friend with a heart condition), we've now shelved Sedona for the Red Rocks of the Greater Zion Area with its open policy on trails on BLM land. Sorry, Sedona no more tourism dollars for you.
Pretty sure Sedona already gets a lot of tourism dollars, way too crowded Al ready. Just a hint: if you ever care to be respected by actual mountain bikers again, stop calling bikes analog, acoustic, amish, or whatever else the mtb industry came up with to make you all feel better about yourselves. It’s bikes and ebikes. Sounds like you gave up on bikes, and now you ebike. And if that’s what you prefer that’s 100% your choice and I hope you enjoy the heck out of it.
Thank you so much for going over the history of how trail access was won for mountain bikes. I think this is why e bikes slipping in on the heels of mountain bike access is concerning. You have a clear perspective on it regarding hiking groups and their potential to shut down access to all bikes. The same conflict/poaching issue is similar here in Pisgah National Forrest. Thanks for this great content!
For the last 25 years been fighting the battle keeping trails open for mountain bikers. Trail days, outreach, working with public officials show the biking community is not a threat as the hikers and horses want us out for good.
Things have been perfect until few years ago. There's been numerous incidents between hikers, horse riders and rangers - sure enough all involve eBikers. Will not go into specifics but alot comes back to younger (sub-50) eBike riders, not experienced, not mature, have not earned their right to ride fast. To make it worse, some areas now closed to bikes or have banned eBikes, yet they still ride there and just dont care.
We never saw these issues with analog riders or older eBike riders because they understand trail etiquette, progressed their skills to support their speed and all the hard work put into trail access. Policing of eBikes (which are illegal in most areas im located) has been almost non-existent so its causing conflicts with analog riders telling eBikers to get off the trails due to the risk in losing everything they invested in. For a community that worked together towards one goal - this has caused a big split that I think will get much worse.
Two things I do - while riding my emtb - to be a good trail citizen are (1) never blast past hikers (dial down from turbo mode) & (2) use a bell. Its annoying but hikers & animals appreciate it. On my ride today, a trail runner thanked me for using the bell.
i kind of feel like most mountain bikers i know, bend over backwards to be friendly to hikers. i think there is just no pleasing some people (emtb or or not).
here in Colorado there are so many cases where dirtbikers have created awesome trail systems, only to get kicked out of their trails by hikers and mtbers.
in general i’ve noticed many mountain bikers easing up their criticism of emtbs. myself included.
I wholeheartedly agree with what you’re saying. I sometimes go and work on our local trails on the organized work party days and there’s a lot of cooperation between different user groups in this area and it is leading to more trails for everybody and that’s saying a lot, considering it’s northern California.
Great content Steve!
With over 200 miles of MTB trails, it seems stupid that ebikes aren't allowed somewhere. There's no reason why everyone can't get out and play. I have no interest in an ebike, but maybe when I'm older I'll feel different.
People can get out and play on a non-motorized bicycle. Obese or lazy people are not entitled to run or pedal faster than they've put in the required work to do. No more of this 'inclusive' entitlement. Earn your access.
@@chrismottola7415 using your logic what entitles you drive a motorized vehicle like a car or truck? What required work did you put in?
Great Video ❤
A very valid “Baby steps” video to put a possible discussion out there.
I’m lucky I live in bentonville, Multi access is allowed….. and if anything our own angle is watch out hikers, there will be an e-bike coming….. and watch out bikers there maybe a hiker there, so keeps your eyes open!! 😮
I recently went to Boulder, I looked into e-bike use and couldn’t 100% guarantee I could ride so I took a “hardtail” instead, as it was I saw a lot of greenways with city type e-bikes using them and very few emtb’s so I don’t think I would of missed out anyways.
As it was I didn’t ride at all as there was too much other things to see, so I didn’t feel I had missed out - Plus I hate creating drama so it’s natural for me to take a passive stance anyways.
Once again, thanks.
This is such an important set of topics. Thank you for bringing more attention to them. All the fun tech stuff really pales in comparison. What good is it if there are no trails to ride? Historically, it seems reminiscent of what I heard in the north east US in the 90's. Later, in the South wes (Tucson) MTB trail building was a large part of the scene. Now in SoCal, I'm still trying to figure out what's what. But I'll continue to try and keep an open mind.
What an intelligent discussion of an important issue. Thank you- it stretched my brain
It was very interesting to listen. In Russia, we don't have a e-mtb problem. Mountain biking is not even close to being this big, as in US. But popularity is rising, new bike parks are being developed. We now got about 5. For the whole country, yes. And a lot of "wild" spots and trails to ride. Nobody sees assist e-bikes as a problem. They are not destroying trails, but allow you to do more laps for the same amount of time. Main problem our mountain biking is facing, are various kinds of idiots, that destroy trails. It's people who could come to spot and burn it down, because it was funny, or flat it with the bulldozer, because some people in the administration decidied that it is dangerous (for people, or for ecology). And, main problem, idiots on motorbikes, that ride mtb trails. There are normal motorcyclists, they got their own trails, routes, etc. And others, who bought "enduro" (or pit bike) and decided that now they could ride anywhere. Some trails and trail systems are used for skiing in the winter, and log jammed at the summer, just to not allow ATVs, pit-bikes and motorbikes to the trails.
This was an enlightening video and I liked how you covered all the bases and went into detail on why there's so much conflict over this issue. I remember seeing fire hazard was one of the reasons that emtbs were banned. There are lot of kits out there to convert regular bikes to emtbs. While OEM emtbs won't catch on fire, DIY one might.
As a former US Forest Service employee, I can speak to the feat from that end of permitting ebikes. the classification of eBikes as motorized vehicles is a deep level interpretation of FS regulations. That is on a national level. Each national forest also has its own Forest Plan which describes how that Forest will use those regulations to operate day to day. Fire management, wildlife protection and management, ecology management, engineering, recreation, etc. These plans can be revised, but it is a MASSIVE administrative undertaking - hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars in salary, for each individual Forest to revise their Forest plans. These plans are revised every 10 years if I am remembering correctly, and revising it early just for a small change like ebikes is not justifiable.
This is only part of the equation, another part is what Steve talked about in the video, pushback from existing users, hiking and conservation groups, etc.
Hope this helps provide additional context, this is a very high level explanation it is much more complicated than I'm able to understand.
Excellent contribution, thank you so much for sharing this perspective.
Thanks for the insights. So thoughtful and well organized.
Such an amazing perspective. Love the presentation of the history/background. I basically agree with you on all points now after knowing more. I don't want to mess things up for those who come after me.
I think the issue of access should not be whether a bike is motorized but the damage to the trails/hikers it causes. It makes little sense to put an ebike in the same category as a motorcycle as far as use/access to trails, when its impact on the land/other users is more closely aligned with a regular bicycle.
I used to be a no-ebike'er, then got an Oso and it totally changed my mind. Now with 2 kiddos, I'm very happy I have one otherwise I wouldn't be able to ride as many trails as I can now. As far as places like Sedona goes, what I think about is how the ratio of hikers to bikers is what, 4:1? 6:1? Maybe more? What I don't like is just because there are more hikers who have a louder voice, why do they get to say what the rules are?
Side note - I've been riding in Sedona since 2013. When ebikes started getting popular, I still didn't see them hardly EVER on trails there, up UNTIL this year when I was at the MTB festival (with my non-ebike). I swear, every 6th bike or so was an e-mtb. It almost seemed like the town had a meeting or something where they were *considering* opening up some trails to pedal assist bikes and that opened the flood gates. Also found it odd that there were so many bike companies at the festival renting out their ebikes, including Shimano.
A lot of players in the industry seems to turn
a blind eye to these issues
@@BigBrainParty and well they should. There is no merit to denying a Class 1 e-bike on mtb trails.
This is a good video. I’ve been a mountain biker for 20 years, and love to ride class 1 emtb’s. I’m a trail builder by trade now a days.
The Emtb hate in the US still baffles me personally. I think classifying a class 1 emtb as a motorized vehicle that can only go where Motos and Jeeps are permitted, is ridiculous. Anyone who has ridden an emtb and an off road moto knows that the power and power delivery are not even in the same universe. They are completely different things, even though some riding skills and techniques may transfer from one to another and they are both awesome, along with regular mountain bikes.
The impact on trails comes down to people riding responsibly. No matter which type of bike you are on. Yes, more people will get out and ride trails now that e-bikes are a thing, but it’s really how they use them that matters. The bikes themselves don’t cause the issue, lack of understanding and education are the problem, like you said.
Nearly everyone I’ve talked to that hates on emtb’s, has never ridden one, isn’t educated on what they are like to ride, and feels some need to be a gate keeper so that people that aren’t “good enough” can’t ride the trails. They hardly ever stop to consider other people’s circumstances, such as yours, Steve. It’s also a huge myth that you can’t ride hard on an ebike. You can absolutely hammer a ride out and get your heart rate where it needs to be to train or make gains on the bike. You just have the ability of control your speed and suffering more than on a normal bike. I’ll always ride both analog and E, but the ebike is just undeniably an incredible tool to have access to.
Great perspective. What area of the world do you build trails in?
I think it'd be interesting to have non-mtb user groups try ebikes and see if their opinions change or not.
I’m in the Upper Midwest, USA. I generally look to Europe and Australia for input on how class 1 Emtb trail access is handled, since it’s all over the place in the states.
From a regional perspective, I should also add that in the Midwest, we are building a LOT of mountain bike optimized trail, vs. trying to gain or maintain access to established trails that were maybe originally built for hiking or equestrian use. This definitely plays a role in ebike access from the get go.
@@maxwelllong3308 excellent point that cannot be overstated.
YES! The variety of eBikes is enormous. My class1 is far from a eBike fitted with a unregulated kit motor and throttle, the latter needing little to no effort from the rider at all. I think the factory made turnkey class 1 bikes are docile enough to be allowed almost everywhere. I hope the various agencies concerned will see this in the coming years.
I like Sedona and planned to move there when I retired 5 years ago until I found out that I couldn't ride my ebike on the mountain bike trails. At 73 years old I can't ride a regular mountain bike. Here in Northern Ohio, the same trails are open to hikers, mountain bikers, and electric mountain bikers. Everyone gets along. The biggest problem is deciding who has the right of way. Technically, hikers have the right of way but usually the hiker says to the bikers, " You go first" and the biker responds " No, you go first." Both want to be nice and let the other go first. I prefer living in a place in which people want to be nice to each other and want everybody to be included. Arizona is beautiful and has better weather than Ohio but I will give up my dream to live there if the people there aren't nice enough to want to accommodate everyone.
You are a wise man Steve.
Hi Steve,
First, thanks so much for this objective discussion. First to my background to give an idea where my views of MTBs, eMTBs, and hikers come from: I am a classic hardtail mountain biker (Stanton Sherpa). I am from Germany (I try to avoid overly long sentences and apologise if I can’t help it anyway) and live close to the Alps. Germany is densely populated and the Alps are an area widely affected by over-tourism. I initially come from a hiking and mountaineering background and getting outdoors for me means to disconnect from stress and technology and to enjoy view, tranquillity and wildlife while doing sports. I am a nature lover and I am a big believer of the no-trace-policy wherever possible. Luckily, I am healthy and therefore there is no need for me to ride an eMTB. That does not mean that I am against eMTBs and as I get older I may decide to get an eMTB. For the moment, getting outdoors means for me to disconnect from technological influences as much as possible, except for a cell-phone in case of emergency.
Now to my personal thoughts about eMTBs: I strongly believe that we do not have the right to do anything, anywhere at any time just because we are humans. Just like when dealing with other people, I believe we have to be humble and considerate when dealing with nature. As humans, we continuously push the natural wilderness further back. Many of us have an explorer gene within us. I certainly have it and I have spent many years as a researcher in the arctic wildernesses. Moreover, being in the wilderness gives us an appreciation of nature and an understanding of why it should be protected. That of course is a bit of a dilemma, at least for me. I wish more wilderness could be pristine. To the same time, I want to go there and experience pristine wilderness. However, if I decide to have the right to do that, I have to accept that others have the right to do the same. And at some point the pristineness may be gone. Therefore, my first thought would be that at least in nature and wilderness areas trails should either be open to hikers only or at least to people who are willing to explore nature by their own muscle power. The eMTB technology will evolve, the reach will grow and tourism or even overtourism in yet natural areas will accelerate even more. I think that discussion goes a bit into the direction of “should there be more cable cars to get people higher up the mountains” or “should we allow more heli-skiing”. The question is “where do we draw the boundary for too much technology use?”. To the same time, I do not want to hinder disabled people to experience nature in a way that I luckily can experience nature. And if I am honest: If fate would strike and I would not be able to get into nature without technological assistance, I most likely would use this technology. Therefore, it truly is a dilemma. My opinion is that eMTBs are totally fine if they help people to get out into nature. However, if I hear a mountainbiker saying “I get an eMTB to be faster, or to climb up technical sections, that I am not able to climb on a regular MTB, or to increase the distance that I can cover”, or I hear “Wow mountainbiking is so cool but I don’t want to put effort into fitness or learning the right technique but I want to do it anyway”, I honestly think that this is wrong. That is fine in a bike park but not out in the nature.
Personally, I did not yet jump the fence on that issue and I am not sure if it is possible at all. However, I tend to this opinion: eMTB on nature trails “yes” but only with the right amount of humbleness and consideration towards nature and other trail users. eMTBs on nature trails NO if it is only for laziness, to be faster or to ride more technical sections. It is our responsibility to preserve nature and trails for future generations. We have to preserve trails for hikers only, who want to enjoy the silence of pure nature. We have to have some MTB-only trails, where people can go rowdy if they feel like it. Most importantly, we have to find a trail culture, where considerate mixed trail use is possible without any hate in any direction. And while all of us outdoor lovers seek for ultimate freedom, we may have to accept that it doesn’t exist in a society with mixed interests. But the greatest possible amount of freedom may be reached through humbleness and consideration.
Thank you for sharing your intelligent and well-articulated thoughts on the issue. Lots of great points here.
Thanks for the video. I am admittedly an early hater of ebikes. However I have since changed my opinion.. This is a great perspective that you have shared. I'm happy you are still able to enjoy the sport you love!! On a side note, Would you mind sharing what helmet you are wearing in this video? Thanks again!!
Thanks for giving this video a watch and for chiming in. This helmet is by julbo. Discount code in the description below.
@@BigBrainParty Oh Wow! I'm always amazed of the products that exist that I've never heard of... such as Julbo.. Thank you for sharing and thanks for the code.. I'm going to give it a look!!! thanks again for the great content.
@@greenhill26 their helmets are great, and their glasses are the best in the business.
Thank you for another interesting video. In the part of SoCal I live, some of the public trails don't allow bike because of the equestrian/horse people do not want us there. One of the trails I like was closed(to bikes & hikers too) because of the equestrians didn't like we were using the trail. I've even heard they are trying to limit trail access to hikers(on trails not bike legal) in another part of town too.
I always found it interesting seeing bike brands having ads on trails not bike legal. I'm pretty sure the parks department knows, cause they have to get permission to film. The other issue that's not helping around here is the small groups of immature teens(& people in their early 20s) on Surrons & the like not respecting the trails &/or removing features that may cause erosion all for the sake of speed. They act like they have an e-moto with the way they ride. Some of them not even wearing protective gear either, which is another topic.
In a related note, I've read that some of the closest sections of the Pacific Crest Trail to me, which isn't bike legal in any of the 3 states, is maintained by the mtb folks. The only reason bikes aren't officially allowed on there is because of the Sierra Club, there was a court case about it, I think in Oregon(need to double-check).
I don't see too many eMTBs around me in NH, and I don't think there's much merit in some of the arguments I see about increased speed and/or weight causing irreparable trail damage. If those concerns are real then everyone is back on fully rigid 26ers with narrow tubed tires and rim brakes because suspension, disk brakes, super grippy tires etc... all enable much faster trail speeds, oh and no one over 200lbs is allowed to ride!
I think the biggest area of concern should be the blurry line from between the 3 classes of ebike, and then the Sur'ron type e-dirt bike with pedals. Policing that is a challenge. How do you prove if your bike is 'legal' for a given trail network, or how does someone in authority prove it's 'illegal'?
There are also some valid safety concerns whereby someone who might have only ventured 2 or 3 miles on a non-ebike might be able to go 20 miles on an 'full fat' class 1 and put themselves into terrain/situations that they are not experienced and/or equipped for. Some might chalk stuff up to natural selection, but ultimately S&R teams get deployed, expensive resources are used to rescue stranded people, so it's definitely something to consider.
My biggest E-Bikes complaint is that they allow pouges to keep pace with me. So far the E-bikers I have encountered are mostly veteran MTBers with ethics, I have yet to meet the dreaded E-bike pirate poacher that uses the motor to ride off trail lines and features that are only e-bike accesible.
Im curious what area of the world do you live in. Im glad to hear so many of the ebikers in your area bring strong outdoor ethics with them.
Here in Sedona, we have a lot of tourists who entered the sport with ebikes as their first mtb. So we have a lot of teaching to do as they're unfamiliar with land use restrictions, etc.
Hey at least give me credit for have the bike skills to keep up with you!! 😅
@@BigBrainParty Well, Catalina AZ is a relative touristic Hooterville compared to Sedona, and I am 59 and generally ride with Baby Boomers and Gen Xers, so some of the ethics stuff is probably generationally represented. Like the internet, some of us were here and doing our thing before E-bikes were conceived. I don't mean that as an insult, but rather an exposure thing.
I for one am happy that the USFS current policy is one of local and regional control rather that centralized. E-bikes are like DH bikes, they have their place and we are only just figuring it out.
Where I live and ride in SE PA and NJ, eBikes are basically allowed everywhere normal bikes are. It gets a bit more complicated in other areas. I recently did a trip to Davis, WV. "Technically" eBikes are not allowed, but the rule is not enforced and the local shop freely rents eBikes to visitors without restrictions.
As far as the "damage to trails" argument, it is purely based on perception as the physics simply don't add up. A normal Class 1 eBike has a maximum power assist of 250 watts. While this is quite a bit more power than the average rider can sustain over a length of time, it is far below what a professional rider can put into the pedals. On a good day, I might be able to put down 300W during a short climb. Under 200W is more realistic and especially during a sustained climb. So when I ride my eBike, it basically allows me to climb almost as fast as a back-of-the-pack Pro. Almost.
Excellent video, but... What's the environmental impact of the emtb? Because if we say no motors, even thou they don't cause emissions or considerable noise, what's the limit there? Are we allowed to bring our cell phones? Drones? If there's no impact, or more impact than an MTB, the prohibition does not make sense.
You don't have to convince the mountain bikers, you have to convince the hikers and equestrians.
@@BigBrainParty Unfortunately it sounds like in your area hikers and equestrians are a stronger and more organized/vocal group than mountain bikers. The squeaky wheel gets the oil.
@@jiw71 indeed, they are. There's a great commend below from a former forest service employee who further highlighted the complexity of the issues.
@@BigBrainParty maybe it's time to put the magnifying glass away and let facts and common sense prevail..........not emotions and governmental red tape.
I have an EMTB and I think pedal assist bike should be legal on most MTB trails. But, I expect GREED keep that from happening. People always want more (power) and industry always wants more (profit). Soon EMTBs will blur the lines between low-powered electric bicycles and lightweight electric motorcycles. The current pedal assist 1 & 3 classifications are short sighted and only useful for road and path users where speed limits are more important than trail access.
If we don't address Watts (W) and Newton-meters (Nm), we will find it impossible to overcome the issues you presented in this video. Compare DJI's new lightweight EMTB to the almost new Trek Fuel EXe. The DJI delivers 75% more torque (Nm) and 183% peak power (W) in a similar package. Which bike will most people pick? Where will these bikes be in 5-10 years if we don't set reasonable limits? Do we expect the industry to be responsible or to just sell as many bikes as they can? I'm really happy with my Fuel EXe, but that DJI media blitz has me wondering if I need the DJI. Call me greedy.
As far as trails go, I ride two MTB trails in my area that do not allow eBikes. Both were built for mountain biking and one of them doesn't allow hiking, jogging or pets. The overwhelming response to me being out there is that a pedal assist bike isn't "the type of eBike they want to keep off of the trails". I was even encourage to ride one of the trails by friends because they know that one of the trail builders rides his EMTB there. I ride a low powered EMTB and I'm not able ride much faster than I could ride a hardtail 10 years ago. I justify my actions because both of these trails were built for MTB and I'm not causing damage or roosting other riders. Call me greedy.
Side rant: Will the auto manufactures change the blinding super bright white LED headlights when we demand that our new car has to have super bright LED headlights? Nope, they will just make them brighter because they want profits and we want more light. #greed #blindedbythelight
Very interesting thoughts! I dont think we've had great long-term vision in the bike industry regarding ebikes.
I can explain why I (and many in the trails advocacy/design wing of trails) dislike eMTBs: I don't actually hate eMTBs per se, I hate what the proponents of eMTBs do/say and the "mine, mine, mine" baggage that the riders of eMTBs bring with them. I want to be clear here, I live in a state (MN) with great singletrack (way better than many people know) and pretty robust eMTB access. Therefore, when I discuss this a bit, know its not coming from some place with few trails and/or access issues you've discussed.
I agree with everything you said about the industry doing a dumb here and not caring about the impact of a product. Also, bike shops get a dinger from me for just turning people loose with rentals/purchases and not discussing limitations of rules, etc. However, my big issue is that many proponents of eMTBs have the bad habit of... fudging... shall we say, the truth about access and how access is determined. They attempt to push forward the idea that if normal MTBs are allowed, then eMTBs are allowed by default. (Nope.) They also misuse consumer definition laws, DOT statues, etc. to claim that these supersede local (land manager) authority for the trails. Here in MN a eMTB group was printing up flyers that did all this and included one of the few non-eMTB trails in the state as location where eMTBs could go. These sorts of actions by the proponents of eMTBs have had blow-back. Just a few years ago, trail construction and trail plans were lauded by all. Never would you get any opposition and city's couldn't green light trails fast enough. But starting with a trail in park called Lone Lake, that has changed, with the argument that eMTBs could be used on the trails used as a "reason" not to allow for trail creation. Opponents have (rightfully IMHO) argued the industry has worked hard to "stealth" eMTBs, so they are hard to spot, making enforcement nigh impossible.
Man, that's terrible to hear that relationships are strained and future trail access is perilous. This is a great reminder to me and others about how different areas have different cultures and expectations for trail use.
Here in sedona we had someone putting "ebikes legal" stickers over the "no pedal assist" signs of the forest service. Since this is federal land, that type of behavior carries a HUGE penalty.
" the idea that if normal MTBs are allowed, then eMTBs are allowed by default. (Nope.)". Sure would like to hear your justification for that remark. (valid proven reasons would be nice. I have never heard any to date concerning Class 1 e-mtbs).
@@jiw71 From PeopleFromBikes website (eMTB map): "Please remember that on federal, state, county and local trails, eMTB access varies significantly. Generally speaking, any natural surface trail designated for both motorized and non-motorized use is open to eMTBs. eMTBs may not be allowed on trails managed for non-motorized activities. eMTB access on singletrack is different than access to paved and soft surface bike lanes and bike paths. eMTBs are not allowed everywhere traditional mountain bikes are. Always consult with your local land manager for access questions." Land managers can decide to allow or disallow eMTB access, regardless of the state's particular laws and that is true in every state in the USA unless the state specifically prohibits municipal entities them from doing so, though private entities still could (conservation clubs, arboretums, etc.). Here in MN eMTBs are allowed by default for any DNR/DOT trails/right-of-way or on paved city trails paid for with any DNR/DOT funding (MN 169.011/169.222/169.223). Natural surface trails are land manager controlled for eMTB access. EDIT: As I said in my comment above, the majority of singletrack in MN is Class 1 eMTB legal, so there isn't access issues here in MN as their are in some areas. eMTB proponents still fudge the rules about access here in MN (and nationally) though.
@@jiw71 Per the PeopleForBikes eMTB map: "Please remember that on federal, state, county and local trails, eMTB access varies significantly. Generally speaking, any natural surface trail designated for both motorized and non-motorized use is open to eMTBs. eMTBs may not be allowed on trails managed for non-motorized activities. eMTB access on singletrack is different than access to paved and soft surface bike lanes and bike paths. eMTBs are not allowed everywhere traditional mountain bikes are. Always consult with your local land manager for access questions." As far as I know, every state, even those (like MN) that have adopted the 3 class system allow public land managers to manage access. Private lands (conservation clubs, arboretums, etc.) obviously can manage access in any way they desire. Therefore, its not guaranteed a new trail would include eMTB access, as land managers' desires vary. Here in MN eMTBs are automatically legal on DNR created/controlled trails (paved & natural surface) and all DOT trails (paved), as well as road right-of-ways. Additionally, in MN any trail built with DNR funds has to be open to eBikes, including eMTBs. However, those are few in number. Most of our trails are in city properties (parks, urban wildernesses) and most of those are open to eMTBs. If you would like the relevant MN statues, I can list them, though they are only important for MN.
thanks for the reply
It's important to protect your environment but in order to do so you need to convince other people to do the same and the best way is to show them the beauty and purity. If people can't enjoy it it opens the doors to carelessness...
Where I live in Canada some land owners are already revoking rights of way because they don't want electric motorcycles. It's a very hot topic. Pretty sad to me I've been advocating and trail building for years. Some sections are now lost forever it seems.
Outstanding discusion
Regarding emtb, the first level for any discussion any place, is to have some sort of uniformed definition of what a class 1 is vs class 2 etc etc
I think this must come from the federal legislative side. As you said, cultures and reasons for limiting such access various location to location, so having a federalized acceptance of what is or isn’t considered “motorized “ is step one
I “think” I’ve even seen congressional language from many years ago specifically stating that class 1 emtb shall not be restricted anyplace where a normal analog bike is allowed. But this was many years ago and I’m admittedly not up to speed with current federal rules
But once a common definition is agreed upon, then we can start looking at the various reasons each location claims they are not allowed. How to determine enforcement of all of that is a discussion for another time. But this is level 2, as a country we haven’t even achieved level 1 technically.
I find it very interesting that places like Arizona and Utah are limiting access to all bikes, I’ve never heard that before. That is really pretty crazy to ban bikes outright in such large areas. I can totally understand some trails being designated for hiking only etc, but banning huge areas to bikes analog or emtb is shocking.
Here in so cal, some cities are beholden to old land use agreements that predated the advent of emtb, but turn a blind eye to even thinking of re-looking at said agreements, treating them as gospel for all time, which, is sad because technology and society constantly change and evolve. Locking into language written decades ago and not willing to adapt is shameful on these municipalities imo
Also, some cite fire danger because the emtb has a battery. I can see this to a certain extent, especially in ca, where everything is a tinder box ready to go. BUT, the officers patrolling…. Use emtb or class 2, or sometimes trucks etc. the fire danger is even higher from their routine patrols lol. Here in my city, a few years ago, there was an incident where sheriffs needed to be called out onto the fire road close to my house to apprehend a suspect. A decent brush fire erupted and caused evacuations here, because the squad car/suv was parked over dry brush and the engine heat sparked the fire. I’ve yet to hear anything of the sort happening anywhere due to class 1 emtb bike crashing…..
I agree and understand with a lot of what you’ve said and there’s a place for everyone I’m sure. But organizations, cities, legislators, and state/federal agencies must adapt.
I think a lot of riders forgo the rules because we are simply tired of fighting the uphill battle nobody wants to hear about, that we just overall don’t care. Which isn’t right mind you. But it is what a lot of riders feel I’m sure
When a dude rode an eMTB on our tuesday trailgroup run I lost the spark. Its like my effort dont matter anymore. Havent been riding with them since.
I like that you have mentioned that people are going to just want to ban all types of bikes on many roads and trails and limit to hiking and horses.
As far as my experience with trail access, I have been with on of the oldest MTB trail advocacy groups in America called MWBA. We became on of the first IMBA groups in California.
As you know, after Covid we have seen a huge influx of new trail users. Pre electric bikes we have been seeing haters against any kind of bicycle. Especially when a Mtn biker comes screaming past them and their small children or family dog.
The biggest problem we are facing on my local trails is just the fact that they are saturated with hikers on the weekends and somehow a mountain biker is thinking that a little bell 🔔 on their handle bars is supposed to serve as a warning siren 🚨 for hikers to clear off the trail.
Personally when I’m riding on the weekends and see hikers I make an extra effort to say 👋 and ask them if they’re ok for me to pass. Sometimes stopping and offering to move off the trail with my bike so they feel comfortable walking around me on an exposed area of the trail.
I should do a video on trail etiquette. Great comments!
I ride all over north America. Ive tried a custom ebike . It's not for me. Most trails I ride , the no ebike signs have disappeared, or are ignored. I used to hike tiger mountain in wa. before mountain bikers showed up there. I watched as it became a mainly mountain bike area and there are still hiking trails . One trail , green mountain in Kitsap is hike, bike, moto, and horse. Mostly I see hikers there and I mostly bike there.
One of my recent rides was mount pinos Frazier park, ca. Mostly hikers. I bikes to the top where it turns to wilderness and the signs make it very clear, hikers only on the wilderness trails.
Ive also been on shared use trails and several miles in realize I've got on the foot only trail...ooops. Also ridden in Santa Cruz, ca on mtb trail that is not legal, yet bikes of all kinds are ripping up and down it. Rode my acoustic bike with a group of ebikers recently at devou Covington KY. Rode with a group in Charleston SC at marrington north mostly acoustic and two people on emtb. A lot of trails I ride, I rarely see emtbs, but they are popping up more frequently. I'm going to get my kid one. She's on a trek marlin 7 Gen 3 currently and it would be more fun ,for me anyway,if she could keep up with me. Maybe for her too. Haven't made up my mind, but probably a specialized turbo levo. I'm kind of a stumpy fan as an all rounder trail bike
so when are you headed to the capital? You have got the right approach and far better at bringing the discussion to the table than most. So many start with all the wrong ideas and an attitude that immediately puts most people in defense mode and it closes the door to any possibility of reaching the goal of making the outdoors 100% accessible to everyone in a safe and shared and beneficial way while promoting conservation and low impact. well done and well said!
I regularly write my congressman sharing my thoughts on bills pertaining to land use.
I'm from switzerland, here in europe thats all relaxed... EMTB = MTB. there is just the disscussion of that that people get on +2500m mountains, where they do not have the skills.. even shared taril with hikes are normal at least switzerland
thanks about the history of the non motorized access! Great to know.
47 years since they passed letting bicycles on some of these trails. People need to understand there is going to be change. I also ADV ride on my motorcycle and snowmobile. Snowmobile is a ton of private land. But the biggest problem is the other trail riders think it is only their trail. Bells on your bike and be courteous. The other problem is the E-dirt bikes that go way to fast for bicycling (non class 1). Then people perceive all E bikes are like them.
With some of my own personal interaction of eMTB riders, some definitely not all come across very arrogant. Almost looking down on analog MTB riders let alone an old man on a hardtail. Bragging how many more miles they can do then me. Very annoying , can we just enjoy riding without anyone running there mouths. So I think that’s were we need to educate some people. Here in NC DuPont state park is in a whirl wind. No E Bikes ! You will get ticketed. Horse back riders, hikers and MTB riders use the same trails. Some are designated just to a specific activity. Constant bickering between the groups is a real concern. If hikers and Horseback riders could get rid of bikes all together they most certainly would. Thankfully the local bike shop doesn’t even rent or sell e-bikes. So that a huge help on there part. We also have a Surron bike problem. They think the should be able to go on any trail a mountain bike can. They don’t see a difference at all. Entitled people think they can do what ever they want.
It's all about advocacy, I'm all about e-bikes but lets all be honest here..they have a motor. But I still don't think they damage trails at all...the weight dispute isn't an issue since we all vary in weight from 200+ to 120+, the bike weight really doesn't matter. Maybe it's the speed, but they are governed. So it's more about advocacy and hikers/horses and gasoline/throttle bikes.
Also, speaking to how different management agencies manage the land differently, this shouldn’t be the case when it comes to access and use as a general rule of thumb.
Again, out here, one city will allow emtb, the next one over does not. The trails connect with each other, the land shares the same hills and what not. If a fire breaks out on one side it is equally able to affect the other. This discrepancy is so ridiculous it’s maddening.
I think that if emtb are allowed in one area, all similar areas in the country should allow emtb, all things being equal. Certain specifics may be exceptions here and there but brand large the general rule should be consistency regardless of which agency manages the land.
Also, it’s very difficult for the average person on a bike who just wants to get out for a ride, to really be expected to fully understand all the ins and outs of who governs and manages the land where. That’s not a reasonable expectation for most people. Avid enthusiasts will often times be interested to learn more and seek that info out but the common person looking to take the family out for the afternoon won’t be thinking of that.
There’s room for everyone involved to improve, for sure. But we need consistency from out government first. Sadly, there are many larger fish to fry in this world that who can bike where doesn’t really have a chance to even get to the table of discussion in Washington…
I can definitely see why some hikers don't want emtb or mtbs on the same trails they use. But, I ride a lot of mixed use trails here. And see hikers short cutting switch backs do going off trail as often as I see other bikers do it. So, I also have a hard time taking them to seriously. Every user group does some trail damage. And, I'll disagree on one item though. I believe any trail open to mtb should be open to class 1 and 2 emtb. If it has a throttle take it to a moto trail. I do love riding moto trails, so that's not any kind of ding against them. Those guys seem to build better trails then most mtb groups anymore. They don't do "flow"! But, I guess thats a whole nother video.
Thanks for sharing an objective, logical and well explained video for this hot issue...
It's the child inside of us that stops us from finding solutions. Below are two examples that represents the child behaviors inside of us;
-Think of a child that has a toy that they won't share. It doesn't matter if they ever use it, they won't share.
-Think of a child that doesn't care who's toy it is. They have no thought too who owns it. They don't care if the toy becomes damaged.
By nature humans are very territorial, selfish, invasive and controlling. We are narcissistic. The irony is this land was taken from the native population who had lived here for thousands of years. How much say do they have on the subject?
Very well said!
My local trail managers have for the time being said no eMTB access without a medical condition. Aside from that, that the industry is pushing and selling a free-for-all of bikes that don't meet the class standards that permissible trails allow. There are significant issues with erosion in the area, and then some uneducated person on an ebike full throttles their way to the top of the trail. We need more buy-in from current and potential eMTB riders to be conscientious stewards.
You do realize that Class 1 (pedal assist) e-bikes do NOT have a throttle.
@@jiw71 I DO realize that. The issue is the plethora of Class 2 bikes being ridden on trails with wide open throttles, or in some cases, conversions.
Controversial topic, is putting it mildly. I agree with 95% of everything you said. Do I think bikes or e-bikes should be allowed on all trails of course not. Do we need to protect what we have for future generations, yes of course we do. Do I think that out of towners are probably the biggest problem on the trails, especially when they just leave trash everywhere, you bet. I think the only point you missed is the human nature aspect of all this. I think this is probably at the forefront of the battle between bikes and hikers and the constant negative interactions between the two groups. The 1% of hikers and bikers that are just flat out rude and disrespectful to each other out on the trail is what is as I see the problem. I do not personally feel that being on a e-bike is the problem. I have had the same positive and negative interactions on both e-bike and regular bike. Those interactions have been all based on the individual or Individuals that I have come into contact. For myself and the people we ride with, we always follow trail etiquette no matter what. We always have a bell on our bikes, in which we are constantly told thank you for that and do everything in our power to make our interactions a positive one, and in most cases they are. My two cents is this, I do not think that bike or the feet is the core issue, I believe it is a human nature issue and the lack of respect for each other that is the root of the problem.
Great points! I agree that trail etiquette is so important for all users, and a few bad apples can ruin it for the rest of us. At least here in Sedona, most of the local hikers are VERY aware of ebikes and most are NOT fans. Fortunately, most are respectful, but i have definitely noticed higher tensions between hikers and mtbs since ebikes have been poaching trails here. It's easier for the hikers to protest ALL bikes, since inevitably ebikes will be riding on mtb trails. Unfortunately it's easier for land managers to close access than it is to manage it. I've seen it time and time again: we're not capable of self-regulation and abiding by the laws, it's easier for land owners to close access than it is to enforce and manage it.
@@BigBrainParty I fully agree. There needs to be some sort of open forum were both sides can sit down and respectfully discuss the topic. I still think that there is a lack of understanding what a pedal assist e-bike actually is.
@@edwardsamarin I definitely yhink this is the way forward. I see a lot of potential to change attitudes by educating other trail users with impact studies, demos, case studies, and success stories.
Thanks I learned allot.
Thanks for watching and being open minded about the topic.
They do have a motor - electric or not. I dont love seeing Ebikes on certain trails here in the front range Ill be honest. I certainly see hikers and equestrians POV's. the people trying to get things banned or shut down really should do their research first though. so long as it does not harm environmentally people will just get used to it. we should be educating more people about trail conservation ever since COVID since the amount of people using outdoor spaces seems to have spiked.
Agreed, our job as etiquette educators became even more important after covid.
We have so many new trial users who haven't been taught about outdoor ethics and leave no trace principles. I have immense hope that as more people get out in nature, more people will want to take care of it.
@@BigBrainParty Well put my man.
I don't have any problems with emtbs. I just have a problem with all the people who ride them on trails marked "no emtb". I'm in Prescott AZ I see them every time I go ride.
So how are ebikes impacting the quality of the trails? When you ride can you tell that the last person to ride before you was on an ebike? Would you rather follow 10 people on horses down the trail or 5 people on ebikes?
@@TomTom-gt5ff I really don't think they are impacting the trails at all, and personally even though I don't have an e bike I hope they change the rules to allow them.
But just because we don't agree with the rules doesn't give us the right to just ignore them. We should respect the land and it's rules. And that's what I have a problem with.
So...when can we expect ebike party? :)
As far as eMTBs, they have run me off the well-known trails here. Just too much traffic & not everyone cares for etiquette. I can always find somewhere else to ride, and don't let it pee in my pudding, so don't really care either way. I'm not getting any younger & it'll be nice to have the option if I don't age as well as I'd like.
I do have a Trek Allant as a car-replacer and it's amazing. We're lucky to be able to use them on city bike infrastructure. Yeah, there's always that guy, but all things considered, I'm personally embracing it all.
We just don’t have enough public lands in my opinion.
Great info however I’m interested in mountain biking, not being an activist. I think at some point they’ll be so many riding emtbs on non emtb trails that the rules will have to change. I’m not about to waist the next 10 years of my life not riding great trails like Sedona on an emtb. Enjoy like, act ignorant, and ignore haters.
I appreciate the candor and transparency. I know that you're not the only one who feels this way. Im saddened i wasn't able to sway you into school of thought #2 through this discussion.
Unfortunately, school of thought #1is the exact attitude and behavior that puts our access in jeopardy.
I believe you're right; if everyone ignores trail usage rules, things will definitely change: they're going to shut down access it for ALL bikes, since we can't play by the rules. Trail access is a privilege and it only works if we respect the boundaries. Think of it this way: if people just started throwing trash on the ground everywhere on trails, this mentality would suggest "eventually the forest service will change things and put garbage cans where we throw our trash." Except that's not how it works. They'd close the trail since we dont respect the rules.
Forest rangers are soread thin ans they're not capable of patrolling every trail all the time. Eventually, it becomes a losing battle and rayher than grant access, they shut it down. It's far easier for the land owners to close trails than to police them. This attitude is already leadong to trail closures.
School of thought #1 definitely exists, but it's not the way to get more access, it's a way to get more trails shut down to all MTBs. Despite knowing this, some people will still choose to ride anyway and risk it for the rest of us.
@@BigBrainParty I guess I’m used to thinking about things in a capitalistic way. If there’s demand for something the market creates a supply. Maybe private bike parks and local government are the future for more emtb access. I much prefer more natural trails than groomed though.
Different areas definitely think about things differently. For instance it’s normal to use bells in CA but when using one in Sedona about every hiker thanked me. The trails in Sedona honestly aren’t great for mixed hike and bike use. Maybe more trails could be off limits to hikers and open to emtb. You really never see hikers on trails in Bentonville. The trials in Sedona really aren’t beginner friendly and emtb riders, at least now tend to be beginners. Maybe all green trials could be open to emtb.
I usually spend around a month in Sedona in the winter but if I lived there it might be a tougher decision to continually break the law.
Steve, you should probably move to Bentonville.
It's not the bike. Poor form makes us all look bad. Unfortunately, making something easier attracts (inexperienced) newcomers and enables them to access areas that historically see low traffic. Most of these newcomers don't yet have a sense of trail etiquette or the rules and this is where the conflict occurs. It reflects poorly on the "mountain bikers" who had to work for years developing their fitness just to be able to enjoy remote areas and big rides. When you spend years paying your dues, you meet people of like mind and become part of the "biking culture". At the top of a big climb or tens of miles from the trailhead, there is nothing but respect between riders because we know what it took to get there. Most new e-bike users do not yet understand the biking culture, respect for the outdoors, and other trail users. I'm not saying that all mountain bikers are nice people. And, we can't mandate that only considerate people are allowed to ride e-bikes on trails. When something is hard, the people who practice and develop their skills tend to have a lot more respect and appreciation. I'm 60 YO and plan to rock a "mountain bike" for many years, but one day I'll be on an e-bike and nobody will notice because I'm a mountain biker.
I really appreciate you giving the historical perspective and a very thoughtful opinion.
I also think you just touched the surface on an issue unique to SoCal in general and San Diego specifically.
There is so much to unpack there, but i do apologize if people have brought the SoCal mentality to Sedona. The place is beautiful, and i would hate to see MTB access get further limited.
I feel bad for socal. They've never been given a seat at the table in these land-use discussions. No matter how polite they are in socal, i dont see land managers ever opening their arms to them. So I sympathize. I can see why their only real option is to ride illegal trails. So if ebikes are on them, it's not hurting the cause because the cause is dead.
I think it's fascinating to hear how different areas have different cultures regarding trail access. Here in Sedona, the Sedona MTB fest donates hundreds of thousands of dollars to our trail groups. This pays for toilet paper in the outhouses, parking, trail maintenance, and more. So here in Sedona, we actually do have a seat at the table for a lot of these discussions. We don't want to lose it because of rogue trail use.
@@BigBrainParty The Ebikes on the San Diego bay bikeway are the worst since they are riding at 20 to 30 MPH on the bike path between Imperial Beach and Coronado. I have seen accidents between road bikes and EBikes and I also seen tourist crash on these Ebikes since they are not used to the speed. Then you have the teens on Surron bikes riding extremely fast and dangerous and can potentially crash on seniors\kids riding regular bikes. I'm not sure that there are even rules on what the speed limit is on the bikeway, but basically we have the same problem Sedona, but at the bayshore bikeway. Its pretty much tourist not caring when they rent these Ebikes or not being aware of the speed they are riding.
@@JoseLimon-vj9iw oh man, that sounds awful. Fortunately we dont have surrons riding on the trails here
Bad etiquette and "trail erosion" or littering is happening by everyone. Not an eMTBer yet, but I am personally convinced that eMTBs do not wear out the trails outside of allowing you to ride for longer. So minute for minute riding, it is the same kind of wear, or at least the same time of wear per minute per lbs of "system" weight. We don't discriminate against "heavy" riders, there should be no argument for "heavy" bikes either.
Definately not on trails where horses are riding, which are by far the worst offenders for trail errosion - at least in SoCal and from my experience.
Also, what needs to be changed is the access for Surron/eMotos, i.e. electric bikes with throttles and at a minimum 10x the sustained power output of assisted pedal bikes which - if they have pedals - are just to trick the letter of the law. It is those that roam SoCal trails and paths, often in "gangs" of teenagers or preteen level of sophistication adults that poach and tread on everything, and are the typical type to give you the "don't tread on me with regulations/i won't do what you tell me" treatment. Because irony.
You're never going to get e-bikers to respect trail designations. I wish we could put the e-bike toothpaste back in the tube, but it's out, and we're just going to have to live with its impacts on the sport. Hopefully they won't kick us all out.
In my opinion. The conflict is from traditional mountain bikers rather than hikers and equestrians . Since hikers and equestrians can’t tell the difference, they typically don’t care however traditional mountain bikers are the people having an issue with Ebikes because we can tell and are typically able bodied people from what I can tell. I think E bikes have a place for elderly or disabled people but other than that, I think able bodied people should ride “A real MTB”.
Ill bet the conflicts and reasons are different in different parts of the world. Here in sedona, hikers and equestrians can't distinguish an ebike like mtbers can. They don't know what a motor looks like, or which models have motors and dont. They make assumptions based on speed of travel and whether they can hear a motor. Even though they can't tell which have motors, they're VERY aware that eMTBs exist and most hikers are NOT fans. When I used to be healthy and I could climb fast, or I would drive a gearbox bike , I would often get yelled at by hikers because they assumed I was on an ebike because of my climbing speeds and because the gearbox looks like a motor and the belt makes noise somewhat similar to a motor. Since they can't distinguish between mtbs and emtbs, it's easier for them to lump us all into the same group and treat all MTBers as if they were ebikes. Im sure the culture is different in other areas, but here tensions are high. When I caught a lady sabotaging our legal mtb trails, she said it's because she's sick of emtbs, (which nobody in our group was riding.) she doesn't care if im on a mtb or emtb, just as long as i dont ride her favorite trails.
Agreed, most the eBike hate I hear of, is coming from avid MTB'ers.
@@jeffsharp4982 i wonder if that's because we're in an ecochamber and we dont hang out on hiker youtube channels or forums. I'm sure it also depends on the region in question. I know in some areas, hikers don't care if we're in emtbs or not, and other areas are hyper aware.
@@jeffsharp4982 true statement. I will say if you respected hikers and equestrians, they respect you. Always give them the right of way. The little things make a big difference.
Why is everyone in the comments acting like emtb riders are a whole new group of users, (of mountain bikes)? I realize it is anecdotal, but the vast number of emtb users in my city are people who are already mountain bikers.
they aren't bicycles. they're Mopeds.
E-mtbs don't have throttles. Mopeds do...
Excellent video. I live in an area where e-MTBs can ride the same trails as regular bikes (UK) but ride every year in places like Moab and BC. For me the question is, do e-MTBs cause more trail damage or do e-MTB riders put other trail users more at risk. I ride over 4,000 miles a year off-road and think the answer is probably ‘no’. If you think e-MTBs cause more damage because they are heavier, do we want to put limits on rider weight? Cos the 220lb rider may cause more damage than me at 160lb.. Last year in Moab, we started seeing e-MTBs on dedicated MTB trails pretty much every day and I can see that unless the rules change, land managers may think about banning all bikes.There are trails in Moab where I dont think trail erosion is a risk so I would hope we could have a rational discussion where wider access vs trail maintenance can be balanced. I ride a regular bike but ride a lot with my wife on an e-MTB. Currently, I cant ride with her in places like Moab, unless we want to stick to Jeep trails. When we go to BC, even I use an e-MTB when we are outside the bike park as with the large elevation, it’s definitely the best tool for the job. More rational discussion please!