I never hear the main thing that I like so much about stoicism and I think it's the basis of it... just that you don't make unreasonable guesses about things if you don't have full information about. I think that's a huge problem today's society, everybody thinks they're right and don't realize they avery well could be wrong and even to their own detriment they'll maintain their correctness at all costs.
Great interview mate! Honestly love these guests and would appreciate more of interviews like this and less of the conservative whining from Stephan or Douglass Murray.
@@sciencefliestothemoon2305 Having said that I have investigated Douglas Murray a bit more, and credit where credit is due, he is not quite Bullingdon club, but he definitely has privilege. Bullingdon still exists and its VERY bad for society!
It sounds a bit like Christianity. At least what Jonathan Pageau is talking about. I think you could try getting him on your podcast to talk about religious symbolism.
About the Seneca statement to Marcia on being "womanish", this seems to me to be in the dichotomy between the stoics and the epicureans, where 'manly' seem to corrolate to 'virtue' and the 'womanish' seem to be about the body. There is such a quote from Cicero in Tusculan Disputations (2.46) where he says that Epicureans cry like women and are not able to endure pain.
@@gracefitzgerald2227 so far the book hasn’t mentioned anything about fasting and cold showers. At least up to week four, there’s nothing like that. It’s been mostly practice of introspection via journaling. I also agree with Casper with fasting as it’s not really difficult, but you better have a clear reason why you’re doing it. I don’t do fasting unless it’s required by a doctor. Cold showers, hm, I love them. But hey, it’s your preference and no one should force you to take cold showers. ^^
Two shortcomings of Stoicism: 1. Foregoing cortisol and serotonin imprints from experience. Can't blame the teachers if cortisol and serotonins were not discovered yet. However, now that we know what the C and S are, we need to use it. Else, being too indifference is a bad thing. 2. Eudaimonia is just scratching the surface of the Mind. We are still operating the mind on a "Modo Reactionibus" basis. Being a eudaimonia is just being a reactionist. We have not transform the Mind into "Modo Narrationum" (Kegan's Self-Authoring Mind and Self-Transforming Mind). Then, we need to add sweet sweet Immanuel Kant's concept of Self in order to transform (some will say separate) the mind from the self. This is when we can reach "Modo Awarenum" (it's a made up word, think of it as the integral of Awareness). Then we get closer to sweet sweet Kant's base plate.
Excellent conversation. I like it all, but, please, keep feminism out of stoicism, as well as any other particular political ideology. Dont take the same route of Atheism+.
‘Not engaging in wishful thinking’ is where he lost me. Have you ever heard of Jim Stovall? He's not stoic, but his book on optimism - maybe give it a read.. What's the big idea with identifying as ‘being’ a Stoic or not, when we can simply just apply principles that work for us. So tired of the identifying or classifying people with something just because they agree with specific philosophies and practices from that. A Taoist can use Stoic principles. A Stoic can be Catholic. A Catholic can be Stoic and Taoist. Just live your life, you define it, don't let others do so for you.
Reject materialism and behave as though your actions resonate ubiquitously. Embracing materialism is to embrace totalitarianism. Resist, transcend, love fate.
44:30 Wait a moment, does it mean, you have to deal with your abusive relatives even if they're being dicks? Like, forgiving every time instead of just ending the relationship that you don't have control over? That's too many figs to eat
Im not a stoic but it seems that the more one sided your relationships are, the more good deeds will stay on the positive side of your moral ledger. The universe is determined. Slavery is an ideal. Stoicism just helps you manage the suffering. Any system that asks for personal sacrifice has a collector of sacrifices ready to accept them.
Not sure if it's still relevant to you, but the answer comes from these two points 1) the main point is to live virtuously and 2) realize what is, and what isn't in your control. Whether you continue the relationship is up to your preference and how your define your duties there (for example a parent's duty to take care of a child and so on - these aren't objective, though).
I suppose many of you have read some of his books... where should I start to read him? "How to Be a Stoic", "The Stoic Guide to a Happy Life", or "A Handbook for New Stoics" ?
Stoicism should be a mandatory religion/philosophy in Western countries. You should be allowed to keep your religion but be obliged to adopt Stoicism as well.
The interviewee gets completely incoherent when he starts talking about "social justice"... women and men are different, that doesn't mean they don't have the same capacities for achieving the good life, but they do have different impediments and obstacles. Women have significantly higher rates of borderline personality disorder, as men have higher rates of narcistic personality disorder: the criteria which leads to these kinds of differences, are broader than just those who have particular disorders. Ironically, borderline personality disorder, is largely what is happening on a cultural level, when society as a whole, creates moral-pictures of 'best practices', instead of building a substantive ethical framework, from first principles: equal protection under the law, does not imply the law should facilitate equal outcomes: this is exactly the kind of convoluted paradox which morality becomes prone to, when we sacrifice normative principles and normative values, and replace them with a moral-narrative built upon definitions of injustice/evil, thus levying blanket accusations against the collective, which then gets directed into venting its moral-force, through targeting scapegoats/witch-hunts, in order to compensate for the cognitive dissonances, double-standards, hypocrisy and incoherence, created by this new (anti-normative) moral-standard,- (wherein) everyone becomes in need of proving a negative (their personal exoneration from the blanket accusation), in order to escape the blanket accusations, and be on the right side of the 'social justice' conventions. This also leads people to create an even larger, remove, and surreal utopian moral-picture to aim at, as only a lofty narrative, can help individuals escape their own hypocrisy, by double-downing into a giant fabric of loose associative rationalizations, in their abandonment of individual integrity, and replacement of moral-virtue, with representations within a dehumanizing reduction of life, in which the blanket-accusation narrative can be channeled and invoked by its radicalized adherents, as dicta replace more and more of their unprincipled schema, growing in its antithesis to normative values.
Great to discover you had interviewed Massimo. He is my favorite Stoic Writer plus his other videos where he chats with another Philosophy Professor about stuff like Meta Ethics etc. are really interesting
Great channel Chris, 100 million people listening to Cardi B's new tune, only 445 views.....dear me! One thing that I've, as a Christian, realised about what Massimo said, is how we mourn death, it's a darn cryfest but in reality, it should be a celebration. I like a lot of the beliefs about stoicism and feel it's in many ways compatible with Christianity. This is a question I pose to the audience as I'd like to get a bigger understanding of the lifestyle / philosophy: What are the major differences between Christianity and stoicism?
I started out with Donald Robertsons latest book 'how to think like a roman emperor '. I have been reading more deeply consistently practicing Stoicism since.
Yeah .... Christianity. It's proactive on promoting personal improvement and societal improvement. Not just accepting the gulag and death camp but fighting against it. The Stoics failed to improve society
like when they condemn contraception and deny women their reproductive rights? Personal improvement through fighting against progress, be it in Science or Society, if it doesn't match it's outdated dogmas
@@curiousindividual634 Progress .... from "Not Killing to Killing" .... A return to slavery next hey ? The middle-easterners really do hate Christianity .... no child sex ... no infanticide .... no slavery .... no beating women .... compassion charity concern cooperation .... yeah you return to the barbarism of the past .... the pre-Christian world of inequality and fear ..... "Women" ... don't kill their own children
![Stoicism vs. Buddhism | Robert Wright & Massimo Pigliucci [The Wright Show]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qcEiF6_Uevo/mqdefault.jpg)
I never hear the main thing that I like so much about stoicism and I think it's the basis of it... just that you don't make unreasonable guesses about things if you don't have full information about. I think that's a huge problem today's society, everybody thinks they're right and don't realize they avery well could be wrong and even to their own detriment they'll maintain their correctness at all costs.
Even proponents of Stoicism?
"Can stoicism be improved?"
"It would probably be a struggle."
I can listen to this guy all day. Thank you for having him back. Great questions as usual.
Great interview mate! Honestly love these guests and would appreciate more of interviews like this and less of the conservative whining from Stephan or Douglass Murray.
Agree Douglas Murray just comes across like a member of the Bullingdon club!
@@OMGAnotherday thanks for the reference. Learned something new.
@@sciencefliestothemoon2305
Having said that I have investigated Douglas Murray a bit more, and credit where credit is due, he is not quite Bullingdon club, but he definitely has privilege.
Bullingdon still exists and its VERY bad for society!
It sounds a bit like Christianity. At least what Jonathan Pageau is talking about. I think you could try getting him on your podcast to talk about religious symbolism.
many of the better things that the christian religion took on was from stoicism absolutely but added too much to it
@@neilfox8230 well, what exactly?
About the Seneca statement to Marcia on being "womanish", this seems to me to be in the dichotomy between the stoics and the epicureans, where 'manly' seem to corrolate to 'virtue' and the 'womanish' seem to be about the body. There is such a quote from Cicero in Tusculan Disputations (2.46) where he says that Epicureans cry like women and are not able to endure pain.
Massimo, I call your definition of feminism egalitarianism and it ought to be the foundation of any just society. Thanks for the good interview :)
Stoicism has returned!!
Thank you.
🤘🙏👊
I'm on my 4th week with Massimo Pigliucci's A Handbook for New Stoics and it's been so wonderful so far!
I'm so happy you've got him on the podcast :D
I’m so happy that we have Stoicism in my life, but does the book want you to take cold shower, and fast? Asking for a friend 😊
@@gracefitzgerald2227
Fasting (for a day or two) is easy.
Cold showers are horrible 🤣
@@casperme6552 my friend says thank you 😜
@@gracefitzgerald2227 No problem Grace, er Grace's friend....
😁🤣
@@gracefitzgerald2227 so far the book hasn’t mentioned anything about fasting and cold showers. At least up to week four, there’s nothing like that. It’s been mostly practice of introspection via journaling.
I also agree with Casper with fasting as it’s not really difficult, but you better have a clear reason why you’re doing it. I don’t do fasting unless it’s required by a doctor. Cold showers, hm, I love them. But hey, it’s your preference and no one should force you to take cold showers. ^^
8 weeks practicing Stoicism and it really is a game changer.
Two shortcomings of Stoicism:
1. Foregoing cortisol and serotonin imprints from experience. Can't blame the teachers if cortisol and serotonins were not discovered yet. However, now that we know what the C and S are, we need to use it. Else, being too indifference is a bad thing.
2. Eudaimonia is just scratching the surface of the Mind. We are still operating the mind on a "Modo Reactionibus" basis. Being a eudaimonia is just being a reactionist. We have not transform the Mind into "Modo Narrationum" (Kegan's Self-Authoring Mind and Self-Transforming Mind). Then, we need to add sweet sweet Immanuel Kant's concept of Self in order to transform (some will say separate) the mind from the self. This is when we can reach "Modo Awarenum" (it's a made up word, think of it as the integral of Awareness). Then we get closer to sweet sweet Kant's base plate.
Excellent conversation. I like it all, but, please, keep feminism out of stoicism, as well as any other particular political ideology. Dont take the same route of Atheism+.
‘Not engaging in wishful thinking’ is where he lost me. Have you ever heard of Jim Stovall? He's not stoic, but his book on optimism - maybe give it a read.. What's the big idea with identifying as ‘being’ a Stoic or not, when we can simply just apply principles that work for us.
So tired of the identifying or classifying people with something just because they agree with specific philosophies and practices from that.
A Taoist can use Stoic principles.
A Stoic can be Catholic.
A Catholic can be Stoic and Taoist.
Just live your life, you define it, don't let others do so for you.
You mean....can modern, feminist men grow a pair and become...grown up men.
It's "dichotomy" of control, not "economy" of control
Reject materialism and behave as though your actions resonate ubiquitously. Embracing materialism is to embrace totalitarianism. Resist, transcend, love fate.
Massimo is as wise as it gets. Loved this interview, thanks
Stop coping and start living. Hedonism or gtfo.
Just ordered my book from Amazon!
44:30 Wait a moment, does it mean, you have to deal with your abusive relatives even if they're being dicks? Like, forgiving every time instead of just ending the relationship that you don't have control over? That's too many figs to eat
Im not a stoic but it seems that the more one sided your relationships are, the more good deeds will stay on the positive side of your moral ledger.
The universe is determined. Slavery is an ideal. Stoicism just helps you manage the suffering.
Any system that asks for personal sacrifice has a collector of sacrifices ready to accept them.
Not sure if it's still relevant to you, but the answer comes from these two points 1) the main point is to live virtuously and 2) realize what is, and what isn't in your control. Whether you continue the relationship is up to your preference and how your define your duties there (for example a parent's duty to take care of a child and so on - these aren't objective, though).
We will need this next Tuesday!!! LOL...
I suppose many of you have read some of his books... where should I start to read him?
"How to Be a Stoic", "The Stoic Guide to a Happy Life", or "A Handbook for New Stoics" ?
Stoicism should be a mandatory religion/philosophy in Western countries. You should be allowed to keep your religion but be obliged to adopt Stoicism as well.
The interviewee gets completely incoherent when he starts talking about "social justice"... women and men are different, that doesn't mean they don't have the same capacities for achieving the good life, but they do have different impediments and obstacles. Women have significantly higher rates of borderline personality disorder, as men have higher rates of narcistic personality disorder: the criteria which leads to these kinds of differences, are broader than just those who have particular disorders. Ironically, borderline personality disorder, is largely what is happening on a cultural level, when society as a whole, creates moral-pictures of 'best practices', instead of building a substantive ethical framework, from first principles: equal protection under the law, does not imply the law should facilitate equal outcomes: this is exactly the kind of convoluted paradox which morality becomes prone to, when we sacrifice normative principles and normative values, and replace them with a moral-narrative built upon definitions of injustice/evil, thus levying blanket accusations against the collective, which then gets directed into venting its moral-force, through targeting scapegoats/witch-hunts, in order to compensate for the cognitive dissonances, double-standards, hypocrisy and incoherence, created by this new (anti-normative) moral-standard,- (wherein) everyone becomes in need of proving a negative (their personal exoneration from the blanket accusation), in order to escape the blanket accusations, and be on the right side of the 'social justice' conventions.
This also leads people to create an even larger, remove, and surreal utopian moral-picture to aim at, as only a lofty narrative, can help individuals escape their own hypocrisy, by double-downing into a giant fabric of loose associative rationalizations, in their abandonment of individual integrity, and replacement of moral-virtue, with representations within a dehumanizing reduction of life, in which the blanket-accusation narrative can be channeled and invoked by its radicalized adherents, as dicta replace more and more of their unprincipled schema, growing in its antithesis to normative values.
Can you translate that into English?
Great discussion, thank you.
Great to discover you had interviewed Massimo. He is my favorite Stoic Writer plus his other videos where he chats with another Philosophy Professor about stuff like Meta Ethics etc. are really interesting
When I was like 17 I printed out the Enchridion. it changed the whole course of me life!
Great channel Chris, 100 million people listening to Cardi B's new tune, only 445 views.....dear me! One thing that I've, as a Christian, realised about what Massimo said, is how we mourn death, it's a darn cryfest but in reality, it should be a celebration. I like a lot of the beliefs about stoicism and feel it's in many ways compatible with Christianity. This is a question I pose to the audience as I'd like to get a bigger understanding of the lifestyle / philosophy: What are the major differences between Christianity and stoicism?
I started out with Donald Robertsons latest book 'how to think like a roman emperor '. I have been reading more deeply consistently practicing Stoicism since.
@@graememorrison1380 thanks mate, will do some research!
❤❤❤
I want to know how you get at any one of your books in that stack!
Just bought the audiobook,. can't wait to listen !!
No figs in winter!
Thanks, this was a brilliant episode
Read my book. It's still a best seller.
Thank you gentlemen for the interview.
Yeah .... Christianity. It's proactive on promoting personal improvement and societal improvement.
Not just accepting the gulag and death camp but fighting against it. The Stoics failed to improve society
like when they condemn contraception and deny women their reproductive rights? Personal improvement through fighting against progress, be it in Science or Society, if it doesn't match it's outdated dogmas
@@curiousindividual634 Progress .... from "Not Killing to Killing" .... A return to slavery next hey ?
The middle-easterners really do hate Christianity .... no child sex ... no infanticide .... no slavery ....
no beating women .... compassion charity concern cooperation .... yeah you return to the barbarism of the past .... the pre-Christian world of inequality and fear ..... "Women" ... don't kill their own children
You're such a clever biologist that you haven't even worked out that this virus panic is not about a virus at all🙄
Stoicism reminds me of the characters of the movie "Divergent"
How so?