I struggled for decades with these types of problems and compounded them with some of the quad shows we did . Taking the immersive sound live years ago was a challenge . Some of these shows worked out great , others not so much . Now retired I sit in my barn listening to Atmos 5.1.4 and again all mixes are not created equal . Thank you for all your work and information .
You can say that again "all mixes are not created equal." Even without considering correlated sources, the 5.1 surround mixes of DVD's, SACD surround and the like have been very enjoyable but never consistent. You must not have any hair left after trying to optimize live concert quad??
Great to have some live sound engineering discussion on your channel. Live is such a complicated environment and too often the learning opportunities are during high-stakes -- live shows. Much appreciated.
Audio engineering is a complex science that involves a lot of mathematics and logical problem solving. In real-world situations, it calls for compromise and best-case scenarios. This video presentation does a good job of introducing some of the challenges that audio engineers are faced with in sound system design. Great job!
Audio-engineering, i.e. developing and designing audio-equipment, involves a lot of math like every other field of engineering. A sound-engineer is not really an engineer and very little math, if any, is required. This is very basic stuff.
@@iliketoast-q9b That's exactly why I used the term (audio engineer) X2, and not sound engineer. The former is a college degree and the latter is a job title.
Thanks to Dave's brilliant explanations and imaginative way of demonstrating these components such as comb filtering, array vs point source, double microphone technique, dedicated speakers for playback and on and on, he has paved the way to making this demo very clear. Anyone with the investment of time and experimentation can now have a new and vastly more complete toolbox for live sound and mixing in general. Well done Mr. Rat and congratulations to L-Acoustics on such a successful implementation of these techniques. I'm assuming that DSP is involved? What is the latency of your system?
I love Lacoustics, always the best system to mix on, but it certainly is convenient that a speaker manufacturers answer to improving coverage over a typical L/R system is..... wait for it: Too buy a lot more speakers, 18 Kara configured L/R to cover a venue becomes 45 over 5 hangs. Also what is less clear is how you would maintain the L -isa coverage with a front fill.
Really interesting! Quite incredible how clear if becomes with the comb filtering problem when using the pink noise (seems like the room was also quite good, and not introducing disturbing reflections) - there are even some minor changes in sound as you walk around (reflections against your bodies - even though, that was still very small compare to the speaker issue it self). But, that typical behaviour as you walked past the middle with the microphones is really caracteristic on music as well and I have heard it so many times on different live performances, trying to find the best sound in the middle. This is also an issue when making good live recordings in stereo (which I have done) The optimum line in the middle is so narrow, that just the smallest movements with the microphones will cause the sound to get skewed (even movements so small they are barely noticable on the video - if filming along with the sound recording). The worst case is when accidently moving back and forth over the optimum line, so the sound "wobble" from side to side. With an audience around that moves and a some music that makes you want to move along with it, it's hard to keep the microphones steady in the middle, haha. That software seem really smart.
I just barely commented on an AVIXA video how I would love to see a Dolby surround schematic unique to each venue showing where each speaker is attacking and whether correlated or not. And with that I would love to see brakes put on AI with some kind of mandatory human input for the result.
Just a thought for L-Acoustics, you could start a customer accessible database of venue based settings. Ie. mapped speaker locations, distances etc. for a starting position for customers?
Ok, so you can compound tricks and mostly solve the high-end. But what about the bottom end? e.g. for 30Hz one cycle is 33ms, to decorrelate it you have to move one signal by significant amount, and since the frequency is so low the comb also each affects more neighboring frequencies as well. For smaller setups e.g. a home, one sub speaker is an amazing solution, but I've no idea how you'd fix it in a multi-speaker setup Nice demo btw!
Human hearing (the way we perceive sound) is such that low frequencies lose their directional component. Conversely, the higher the frequency, the more we are able to discern the direction that the sound originated from. It's the same reason that we feel boomy bass frequencies in our chests (it sounds like it's everywhere), and high frequency cymbal crashes come from the right or left. It's no mistake that modern stereo systems have one sub-woofer (with both channels) and a right and left speaker. That type of arrangement (theoretically) maximizes the stereo effect that we hear. Audio engineering is a complex science that involves a lot of mathematics and in real-world situations, calls for compromise and best-case scenarios. This video presentation does a good job of introducing some of the challenges that audio engineers are faced with in sound system design.
@@toddwilliams8761 Was this written with ChatGPT? Comb-filtering in low-frequencies results in power-alleys which have nothing to do with the "directional component", i.e. our ability to locate a sound source.
The basic problem here is the premise, yes there will be comb filtering as you move through the venue, but that’s not what the audience is doing. The audience is sitting in a seat. A fixed position. What really matters is that every seat has direct audio. Iv done shows with thousands of speakers 🔊 under every seat in the venue. If you walk around you would hear comb filtering but sitting in your seat, the direct audio delivers clarity without energizing every molecule in the room. 😉
could you please share which venue has this system (or maybe the name of the system itself)? I would really like to know more about it. I doubt that here in south america we have something like that
Thousands of speakers? Wow! Ive thought about adding a dozen delay speakers to our church to help with speech intelligibly in a highly reverberant room. But thousands?!? What kind of amps and wiring would that require?
Since we can determine the angle of coverage of each array of speakers, why can't we just hang them at the center of the stage and hang other arrays next to each other in a curve configuration depending on the speaker's effective coverage to create a balance sound field, eliminating the phase issues. Would that make sense?😆😂. I am no expert, I don't even know what I'm talking about😂. Very informative video anyways.
@@jean-lucbattista2492 I guess most sound systems are using mono sound regardless if they have a left and right set up, coz we all know the problem of sending stereo to a wide area. I think you can only use stereo output if you can ensure that your audience is in the same position in both the left are right of your speaker array. So my point here is even those setups with left and right arrays are outputing mono sound
@@LostSoulsMed. perfect you've positioned your first sound object. now create a second one in a different position. And what if you want 64 sound objects? Do you create 64 mono stacks with perfect coverage? Or do you want the help of L-ISA to calculate a sound field from fewer sound sources , that will well represent that sound object position? Thats the goal !
@@jean-lucbattista2492 Delay-lines exist. And why would you ever want to play the same crowd with 64 different sound sources, with all the same signal? Just because you could doesn't mean you should.
@@iliketoast-q9b each sound object is a different signal. You don't need a decoding matrix to send the same signal to all your speakers... Definitely not a good idea. I made a mistake in the last sentence. You want the help of L-ISA to calculate a sound field from fewer sound sources, that will represent EACH sound object position... Up to 64 sound fields.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
6:10 (opposite of power alley) “we’ve got the power valley.”
This is such a good explanation!
I struggled for decades with these types of problems and compounded them with some of the quad shows we did . Taking the immersive sound live years ago was a challenge . Some of these shows worked out great , others not so much . Now retired I sit in my barn listening to Atmos 5.1.4 and again all mixes are not created equal . Thank you for all your work and information .
Man I want quad and wanna record Hard Rock original rock music in quad..we have surround sound in every living room what's the holdup,????
You can say that again "all mixes are not created equal." Even without considering correlated sources, the 5.1 surround mixes of DVD's, SACD surround and the like have been very enjoyable but never consistent. You must not have any hair left after trying to optimize live concert quad??
Great to have some live sound engineering discussion on your channel. Live is such a complicated environment and too often the learning opportunities are during high-stakes -- live shows. Much appreciated.
Ran house of worship sound for many years (not real big houses!) and always new of this problem but never heard of these solutions!! Thanks so much!
I saw the title and i thought unless you're gonna get Dave rat you're never gonna be able to
And then the video started 😂
Audio engineering is a complex science that involves a lot of mathematics and logical problem solving. In real-world situations, it calls for compromise and best-case scenarios. This video presentation does a good job of introducing some of the challenges that audio engineers are faced with in sound system design. Great job!
Audio-engineering, i.e. developing and designing audio-equipment, involves a lot of math like every other field of engineering. A sound-engineer is not really an engineer and very little math, if any, is required. This is very basic stuff.
@@iliketoast-q9b That's exactly why I used the term (audio engineer) X2, and not sound engineer. The former is a college degree and the latter is a job title.
@@toddwilliams8761 And why mention this on a chanel about sound engineering?
Thanks to Dave's brilliant explanations and imaginative way of demonstrating these components such as comb filtering, array vs point source, double microphone technique, dedicated speakers for playback and on and on, he has paved the way to making this demo very clear. Anyone with the investment of time and experimentation can now have a new and vastly more complete toolbox for live sound and mixing in general. Well done Mr. Rat and congratulations to L-Acoustics on such a successful implementation of these techniques. I'm assuming that DSP is involved? What is the latency of your system?
This is crazy, I used to be a developer for this software! Didn't expect to see it here
How on earth does this work software wise?
L-ISA looks/sounds pretty cool, I'll be interesting in seeing more.
I love Lacoustics, always the best system to mix on, but it certainly is convenient that a speaker manufacturers answer to improving coverage over a typical L/R system is..... wait for it: Too buy a lot more speakers, 18 Kara configured L/R to cover a venue becomes 45 over 5 hangs.
Also what is less clear is how you would maintain the L -isa coverage with a front fill.
I always strive for consistency, with the live sound I do every seat is the worst seat in the house
Was like what's your favourite band ? Well pink noise😅❤
Lovely! I love to watch engineering-level videos. Great one with decent information!
Very informative presentation.
TY got me thinking about double mics and stereo panning. Can’t wait to experiment.
Thank you for piece and seeing you and Dave Rat together made my day
Really interesting!
Quite incredible how clear if becomes with the comb filtering problem when using the pink noise (seems like the room was also quite good, and not introducing disturbing reflections)
- there are even some minor changes in sound as you walk around (reflections against your bodies - even though, that was still very small compare to the speaker issue it self).
But, that typical behaviour as you walked past the middle with the microphones is really caracteristic on music as well and I have heard it so many times on different live performances, trying to find the best sound in the middle. This is also an issue when making good live recordings in stereo (which I have done)
The optimum line in the middle is so narrow, that just the smallest movements with the microphones will cause the sound to get skewed (even movements so small they are barely noticable on the video - if filming along with the sound recording). The worst case is when accidently moving back and forth over the optimum line, so the sound "wobble" from side to side. With an audience around that moves and a some music that makes you want to move along with it, it's hard to keep the microphones steady in the middle, haha. That software seem really smart.
I just barely commented on an AVIXA video how I would love to see a Dolby surround schematic unique to each venue showing where each speaker is attacking and whether correlated or not. And with that I would love to see brakes put on AI with some kind of mandatory human input for the result.
Just a thought for L-Acoustics, you could start a customer accessible database of venue based settings. Ie. mapped speaker locations, distances etc. for a starting position for customers?
Spectacular explanation
Amazing video! Thanks a lot, guys.
Ok, so you can compound tricks and mostly solve the high-end. But what about the bottom end?
e.g. for 30Hz one cycle is 33ms, to decorrelate it you have to move one signal by significant amount, and since the frequency is so low the comb also each affects more neighboring frequencies as well.
For smaller setups e.g. a home, one sub speaker is an amazing solution, but I've no idea how you'd fix it in a multi-speaker setup
Nice demo btw!
Human hearing (the way we perceive sound) is such that low frequencies lose their directional component. Conversely, the higher the frequency, the more we are able to discern the direction that the sound originated from.
It's the same reason that we feel boomy bass frequencies in our chests (it sounds like it's everywhere), and high frequency cymbal crashes come from the right or left.
It's no mistake that modern stereo systems have one sub-woofer (with both channels) and a right and left speaker. That type of arrangement (theoretically) maximizes the stereo effect that we hear.
Audio engineering is a complex science that involves a lot of mathematics and in real-world situations, calls for compromise and best-case scenarios. This video presentation does a good job of introducing some of the challenges that audio engineers are faced with in sound system design.
@@toddwilliams8761 Was this written with ChatGPT? Comb-filtering in low-frequencies results in power-alleys which have nothing to do with the "directional component", i.e. our ability to locate a sound source.
Nooo, it's a reupload! I thought I was gonna get two videos in a single day from you! >:D
The basic problem here is the premise, yes there will be comb filtering as you move through the venue, but that’s not what the audience is doing.
The audience is sitting in a seat.
A fixed position.
What really matters is that every seat has direct audio. Iv done shows with thousands of speakers 🔊 under every seat in the venue. If you walk around you would hear comb filtering but sitting in your seat, the direct audio delivers clarity without energizing every molecule in the room. 😉
could you please share which venue has this system (or maybe the name of the system itself)? I would really like to know more about it. I doubt that here in south america we have something like that
Imagine going to a club and you have to sit
@@jensnln to be honest, that sounds more like a theater
Thousands of speakers? Wow! Ive thought about adding a dozen delay speakers to our church to help with speech intelligibly in a highly reverberant room. But thousands?!? What kind of amps and wiring would that require?
You want every seat to sound to sound the same and have an even frequency response, not have one where you have huge dips or worse, resonances.
Whats the song playing in the outro? Its pretty awesome and I was wondering about a full version?
Give every musician a massive spread mono speaker in front of them, and let it all mix naturally. Just a thought.
someone help with the song in the outro 13 min ?
Do you know the song in the end of the video?
Turn This Night by Z3U5
@@Andreas-ov2fv the song is beautiful, but it is not the same in the 13 min
I can someone help me to get instrument for my church ❤
Wow
Jarring
All of its digitally focused
Since we can determine the angle of coverage of each array of speakers, why can't we just hang them at the center of the stage and hang other arrays next to each other in a curve configuration depending on the speaker's effective coverage to create a balance sound field, eliminating the phase issues. Would that make sense?😆😂. I am no expert, I don't even know what I'm talking about😂. Very informative video anyways.
that's a mono setup, perfect for speech and maximum intelligibility.
@@jean-lucbattista2492 I guess most sound systems are using mono sound regardless if they have a left and right set up, coz we all know the problem of sending stereo to a wide area. I think you can only use stereo output if you can ensure that your audience is in the same position in both the left are right of your speaker array. So my point here is even those setups with left and right arrays are outputing mono sound
@@LostSoulsMed. perfect you've positioned your first sound object. now create a second one in a different position. And what if you want 64 sound objects? Do you create 64 mono stacks with perfect coverage? Or do you want the help of L-ISA to calculate a sound field from fewer sound sources , that will well represent that sound object position?
Thats the goal !
@@jean-lucbattista2492 Delay-lines exist. And why would you ever want to play the same crowd with 64 different sound sources, with all the same signal? Just because you could doesn't mean you should.
@@iliketoast-q9b each sound object is a different signal. You don't need a decoding matrix to send the same signal to all your speakers... Definitely not a good idea. I made a mistake in the last sentence. You want the help of L-ISA to calculate a sound field from fewer sound sources, that will represent EACH sound object position... Up to 64 sound fields.
Last try people, can someone help mi with the song in the end of the video? min 13
I wish I could afford LAcoustics gear!
Why? There is plenty of other gear on the market that is just as good, D&B for instance.
Well we often called nodes and anti nodes ! 😅 In fact is not quite about frecventy is about how those energy fight each other in air!
its not possible.