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Here’s the issue with Simon’s choices tho. She was going to marry someone else who did want to have children. But he followed her outside and compromised her. She no longer had the choice to choose the husband or the children. That action was taken in bad faith knowing they’d be forced to marry. What Daphne did wasn’t acceptable by modern standards. If you factor in her lack of understanding anything about sex, it gets grayer. Both plots, Daphne and Marina, are different illustrations of what happens when girls and women aren’t taught anything about their bodies and sex. They’re caught in situations where they have no say or control. And it then rebounds in ways that hurt others, like Simon or Colin. It’s a discussion about all the ways the social structures do harm. As for Penelope, I think she’s upset about both but she’d be happy for him if he was genuinely happy. But I think being tricked into marriage by someone who doesn’t love you isn’t going to make for a happy life either.
Yes, to all of this. If Marina truly loved Colin and she thought they would be happy together, Penelope would have still been heartbroken, but she wouldn't have tried to break them up. But knowing Colin is going to get his heart broken too pushes it over the edge. And she tried everything she could to do it without compromising Marina, including going to her directly multiple times. This doesn't excuse her exposing Marina's secret, but she's not acting purely selfishly out of jealousy.
@@rbrainsop1I think people forget Penelope and Colin have been friends since childhood, her loyalty should be with Colin, not the girl she just met a few months ago. In my opinion, Penelope should have told Colin as soon as she found out Marina’s plan. I understand she didn’t want to compromise her, or her family, but her silence made everything so much worse.
I agree with all of this. We get a hint of what life for Colin would be like if he married her. But I won't say more right now. Imagine realizing that the man you married was more than happy to go the whole marriage letting you believe his lies. Daphnie didn't understand the pulling out, thought it was painful, she had no idea what was happening, Simon was happy to keep her ignorant because it made his life easier. Easier than having to tell the truth. He claims he believed she knew, but I doubt that very much, especially when she thought he was in pain. Daphne should have brought this up in conversation, rather than trying to prove the point and then discuss it afterwards.
I could be wrong but I’ve always gotten the impression that Marina is more educated than the women in the ton, so she knew what sex was before George. She grew up poorer in the country, on a farm and therefore likely had to do household chores, etc and would be more knowledgeable. Remember in episode 1 when Eloise asks how a woman comes to be with child and Colin asks if she’s ever been to a farm. I think women on farms understood fertility more just because of their proximity to animals. This is further supported by the fact that Marina knows she’s pregnant when she misses her period before Portia confronts her. She understood what not bleeding meant on her own, which suggests she had at least a rudimentary knowledge of how children are made.
Penelope is not acting out of jealousy. I don’t know if you guys noticed in ep 1, but when both families are leaving their homes to attend the girls presentation to the queen, you can see they live directly across from one another. Penelope and Eloise are the same age and Colin is 3 years older than them. He and Penelope have been close friends practically their whole lives. I don’t fault you for not seeing it because season 1 doesn’t showcase their friendship that much. Penelope might be in love with Colin, but she also cares for him a lot, that’s why she doesn’t want to see him tricked into a loveless marriage, and fooled into thinking Marina’s child is his. Also, Colin is nothing like his brothers. He actually believes in love, and doesn’t want to spend his life fooling around like them, he wants a marriage like the one his parents had.
A lot of women never discuss sex with their children. My mother never did. I didn't have sex ed at school. I just figured it out on my own. The difference between then and now, back then NO women discussed sex, it was a societal taboo for the upper class. I'm pretty sure the lower rung of society did though, found out the way I did.
I think it's so interesting to see how trauma can affect you to such a degree that you turn into the thing or person you don't want to become. Simon's father acted selfishly about continuing the Hastings lineage while Simon is also acting selfishly by adamantly wanting to discontinue the Hastings lineage and disregarding his wife's feelings. He possibly has fears about being the same father to his children that his dad was to him. I think all of that factored into him making the vow in the first place other than spiting his father.
Blake's take is not it. Penelope was protecting her lifelong friend, and obviously boy who she has a crush on, from getting scammed into a fraudulent marriage. Marina was using Collin and was going to pretend that it was his child. That's beyond messed up, especially because he is a kid himself and not ready for marriage yet, hence why he isn't courting women like his older brother's should be doing. Also, although Daphne trying to entrap Simon is not acceptable either, he not only lied to her about not being able to have children, leading her to believe he CAN'T have them, he also selfishly took away her chance of having a husband with whom she would be able to have a family, the Prince. If he loved her and knew she wanted a family, then he wouldn't have interfered in that and let her go and have the life she wanted. But each time he pulled out, and didn't tell her what he was doing, was a smack in the face. I would feel so betrayed.
Colin is older than Marina and Daphne so the argument that he's a child is out of the window. Marina had no choice but to pass her child off on another since she hadn't heard from George. Penelope saw nothing wrong with it until it was Colin. She was raised just like Daphne and Penelope. She would've been cast out of society, pregnant and with no money and no skills for work or childcare to even try to work. Also, Marina does like Colin, she's not in love with him but I don't think she would have been a horrible wife to him either.
@@CarpathianpixieColin may be older but he’s incredibly naive. Marina recognized that and definitely used it to her advantage. In the regency era love matches were incredibly rare, she had the option to find a practical match with someone who would’ve provided for her and the baby but, she’d either need to marry someone older like Portia was trying, which she understandably didn’t want, or she’d have to try and convince someone younger to marry her, which would’ve been challenging. She zeroes in on Colin because like she told Penelope, he was eager and didn’t play games with his affections, so she knew he was someone she could easily manipulate into getting what she wanted with no regard for his feelings. Colin is a romantic, he dreamed of a love like his parents and Marina tricked him into believing she loved him. That’s incredibly cruel. She had other options, she chose the one she liked most and didn’t care who she hurt along the way.
@@Carpathianpixie your entitled to your wrong opinion. Marina knows the consequences so acting before marriage in this time and she made her choice she can take her consequence to her own actions and leave Colin out if it, no he isnt a child but he also isnt mentally an adult and is still very immature and his family sees that in this rush to marry her
The actress who does the voice for "Lady Whistledown" her name is Julie Andrews. She`s in the Despicable Me movies, The Princess Diaries movies, she`s even the original Mary Poppins in Mary Poppins.
This is such a painful episode for everyone. What Daphne did to Simon was messed up af and the moment Marina manipulated Colin into arranging that elopement, the time for finding better solutions ran out and that situation was doomed to end unhappily for either him or her. Edit: I love Igli's input at the end of this episode about how no one is right in this episode and that your perspective will depend on which characters you're rooting for more, because that's so true. For example, had Colin and Marina made it out the door at the end of this episode, Colin would've ended up thrown under the bus in a loveless marriage, his kindness being taken advantage of. Because they were stopped, Marina ended up under the bus instead. How someone feels about that will depend on which character's well-being each individual viewer prioritize. Edit 2: If Marina and Colin were either just flirting or genuinely in love and Pen was meddling or sabotaging, it would be fair to say that Pen was just motivated by jealousy, but seeing as Colin is being lured into a lifelong commitment that he is too good and honorable to turn his back on even if he is miserable for the rest of his life, I don't think romantic feelings even would have needed to be a factor to want to save him from this. Not saying that there isn't jealousy here, but it's also love for him. No one who loves Colin would want this to happen to him.
She was motivated by jealousy everyone needs to be fr. And that is okay. She's still a kid. It makes sense. Because she could have outright just told Colin if it was about protecting him lol.
@@tshegofatso9021As I said, Imo it was *both* jealousy and not wanting Colin to be scammed into a lifelong commitment, as Pen put it herself. Jealousy obviously very much will be there in this scenario, kid or not. But it also goes without saying to me that anyone who genuinely loves Colin, (romantically or platonically) and who learns about this scheme, would be strongly opposed to it. The obvious solution is going straight to Colin with the full truth, but being a kid living in the Featherington household with the people who are doing said scamming certainly makes that a harder step to take, because with the amount of times Pen had told them not to do this to Colin specifically, it wouldn't take them long to figure out who told on them. It is a complicated and nuanced situation all around.
One that always bugged me about Simon's plot is how he actually thought he could keep up this pull-out plan for the 20+ years of fertility Daphne still had, especially doing it as constantly as they do (and that she wouldn't find out sooner or later). Neutering would be painful but safer brother
I'm pretty sure it was Corey based on Blake giving him advice on what he would do if editing. Also the zooms on Blake and Igli's faces after the other said something to insult them.
I laughed out loud at the vervain reference. One thing on Simon: he is still very much affected by his father's abuse and struggles to express himself- you didn't comment on it in this abbreviated video, so I don't know if it was in your longer commentary, but his stammer came back at the start of their argument. That doesn't mean he's 100% in the clear for every aspect of his behavior, but the scene where he's talking about how hard he feared it would be for Daphne to interact with that child does ring like he truthfully thought she understood the situation... which may be in part because he didn't want to yet fully "realize" (comprehend) that she didn't understand what she'd agreed to. It's a messy situation, and like Igli said, part of the show's appeal can be that every character is really mired in their own struggles and needs and wants, and there is a struggle to find a balance for the characters to get happy endings.
I don’t know how I feel about your take dude. It’s entrapment for 18/19 year old Daphne who knows nothing about sex other than what her 29 year old husband has told her, but it’s not entrapment for 19 year old Marina who is trying to fool 19/20 year old Colin into believing the child she’s already carrying is his?
I know google says Daphne is 21, that’s because that’s how old she is in the books when she marries because it took her until her 3rd season to find a husband. Here Daphne married her first season out. Since women are presented at 17, and Lady Bridgerton allowed Eloise a year off before being presented, one can assume she did the same for Daphne.
Im confused as to how Blake is not okay with Daphne trapping Simon with his own kid. But its okay for Marina to basically honey trap Colin and pass off her kid as his. Just so that shes okay. I think thats worse. She's pretending to love him. To be so infatuated with him she can't wait to marry. And then pretend she got pregnant right away. Only to tell him later on it was all a lie. Simon and Daphne need to learn better communication and conflict resolution. Marina is being selfish and a liar. Which would then make Colin a fool and to his society a cuckold. The only person not at fault here is Colin due to ignorance. But the other three are completely wrong. Good intentions, ignorance or not. They are making decisions that adversely affect another.
I genuinely don’t understand how anyone is ok with what Marina did to Colin. You can feel badly for her and understand that as a woman she had very few options, but she chose Colin based on the calculation that he was eager for love and didn’t hide his emotions. She immediately clocked that she could manipulate him and started to pretend she loved him and just wanted to be his family, constantly making herself out to be a victim, like saying no one wants her in the hallway, so that he’d feel compelled to save her. It would be one thing if she tried to find a practical match, but to pretend to be in love with someone that you know is naive so that you can trick him into marrying you, with him thinking he’s finally found a woman who will take him seriously, is just cruel. At least Simon and Daphne actually loved each other.
@crystalpritchard5065 omg, yes. What Daphne and Simon did was bad. But it was also not malicious in its intent. Marina was both calculating and manipulative. I just can't see how ppl think she was some sort of victim. She acted as if she understood her situation and was fine with it. Now, all of a sudden, she needs to secure herself at the expense of someone tolerable. That isn't seeing it from her perspective. That's just being downright horrible and not thinking of anyone but yourself. They may not be desirable but there were those that wouldn't care about her being pregnant.
@@lindyramdass1262 I also have less sympathy for Marina because, unlike a lot of people, I don’t think she was as naive as Daphne, or other women in the ton. The first thing we’re told about her is that she grew up in the country, on a farm. She’s also not as wealthy as the Featheringtons so presumably would’ve had to help out on the farm, which leads me to believe that she has at least a rudimentary understanding of how babies are made. The show even kind of teases this when Colin asks Eloise if she’s ever been to a farm after she asks how a woman comes to be with child. Also, Marina knew she was pregnant before Portia told her, she therefore understood that not getting her period meant she was pregnant. It’s unclear if Daphne even knew that before her conversation with the maid. So while I don’t fault Marina for getting pregnant, I also don’t think George took advantage of her, I think she understood the risks before she slept with him and did it anyway. So I don’t see it the same as Daphne whose lack of knowledge was actively exploited by Simon.
No, he thought she knew how babies were made as he said, "I thought you were prepared." Mother's told their daughters after they are engaged how babies are made, preparing them. Also, she would have married Simon even if he said I can have kids, but I just won't. She was going to marry Burbrooke so her and her family would not be ruined, so she would have done the same with Simon because Cressida saw them. Remember, he didn't ask her to marry him. It was all her idea to marry.
It's so funny that Igli is so sure Eloise is Whistledown. What do you mean there's no other explanation? If Pen knew about Marina she too could be Whistledown right?
The only defence I’ll make for Simon is perhaps he assumed Violet sat Daphne down and had the birds and bees talk post-engagement-pre-wedding. However, what Simon failed to realise is that women were not talked to about sex the same way men were (yay patriarchy). Men were probably told explicitly to make sure they didn’t make any children out of wedlock, but Violet certainly isn’t the only mother to speak to her child in metaphors regarding sex as it was extremely taboo (thank god schools now have sex ed because my mum never sat me down to have ‘the talk’, likely because grandma never did with her). Completely agree, both Daphne and Simon were in the wrong in this situation. I know a lot of book fans were hoping this scene would be axed/changed (according to my TikTok FYP at the time).
Simon definitely took advantage of Daphne's naivete because if he had to explain what masturbating was, he had to know she didnt know how babies were made also. However, what Daphne did was marital SA even though it was due to ignorance.
Dont judge Daphne by modern standards. She literally didnt know anything about anything a weeks before. Being a wife and a mother was the whole identity of a woman at the time, and all she learnt was he was keeping her from it deliberately. About consent, you would be surprised at the rates about how many people even today have no idea about marital grape, let alone a noble girl in the regency era. Also, I get why Marina did it, but when she chose to go ahead with it even after learning her lover did not betray her, and that Pen loved Colin, I gave up on her. Although I admit, Whistledown was harsh and completely ruined her.
I’m so with you, Blake! Finally someone has the same perspective that I do about the Penelope & Marina situation. Cuz where was all that energy when it came to all the other men in the Ton that the Featherington’s wanted Marina to deceive??
Yep, just an episode or so before this, Penelope was throwing out random guys for Marina to do it to instead- she says at some point something to the effect of "just not Colin." And as Marina said in a previous episode, was she supposed to deceive a bad man who she would then be stuck in marriage and raising a child with? What Marina did isn't right, but Penelope's objection was that she personally cared about the target (which she's not wrong to do) rather than objecting to the plan altogether.
The issue isn’t just that Marina is deceiving Colin into marrying her, it’s that she actively tricked him into thinking she loved him. Penelope knows that Colin is a romantic and that he believes in love, he wants a love match not a practical match, as was common in the regency era. The older gentlemen that Portia was suggesting for Marina wouldn’t have been under the impression that Marina loved them, they’d have understood it was basically a business arrangement. Similarly, if she’d gone after someone else and made it out to be a practical match, the deception would’ve been different. She has a dowry that might have attracted an untitled man into a practical marriage. On the other hand, if Marina genuinely loved Colin and they’d have been happy together, Penelope wouldn’t have interfered.
Another huge difference is that Colin has been a long life friend of hers and the brother of her best friend. Even if she didn’t have feelings for Colin, Penelope’s best interest is still going to be her life friend over a long distance relative she just met, who has other options to deceive.
Daphne assuned that Simon wasn't able to have kids. Simon meant that he couldn't have kids because of how strong his negative feelings towards his father were. Everyone's getting hung up on wording and "can't have kids" vs "won't have kids." I just think that there was a lack of proper communication all around. In this time period, you just married someone. You didn't really give them your whole life story first, but with how Simon felt about Daphne, he really should have explained why children were not on the table. On the other hand, someone really should have given Daphne the sex talk before she got married. Nobody's fault, but hurt feelings on both ends. Also, with everyone getting caught up on proper English and proper wording of things, seriously? We say, "Ugh, i can't," when we don't like something, when it gives us the ick. That's not proper wording. "Ugh, look at the color of that sweater. I can't." No, actually, you can. You just won't.
The way Simon chose to word it is incredibly important to the storyline. People aren’t getting caught up in it, the implication of can’t versus won’t changes the entirety of the issue. Simon implied to Daphne that he couldn’t have children, she correctly assumed, based on his wording choice, that it would be physically impossible for them to have children. The show glosses over it but Daphne’s knowledge is so bad that for a while she assumes they can’t even consummate the marriage, that Simon can’t physically even have sex with her, not that she knows what it entails. If Simon had told her he wouldn’t have children, it becomes clear that it is a choice, removing his betrayal entirely from the scenario. Like the wording is the whole point. It’s not that in that time they didn’t give their life stories to each other before marriage, it’s that Simon purposely misconstrued the issue making Daphne believe he physically didn’t have the ability to give her children, that neither of them had a choice in the matter.
With lady whistle down they pull a gossip girl, in gossip girl Kristen bell voices the column to hide the character that is gossip girl they do the same here with Julie Andrews
No hands down Daphne and Simon were both wrong no question. However the question on if Simon was knowingly moving on bad faith, I believe yes. I believe he had to have had an inkling of knowing she doesn't know but decided to to play ignorant. Because he taught/explained to her on how to masterbate, then during their third or fourth round of sex she asked him if him Cummings hurts. And mind you she didn't even know what to call what was happening to him. So she asked, "Does it, hurt?" There is no chance in h e double hockey stick Simone can sit here and honestly say he thought she knew. It doesn't take away the wrongess of Daphne's actions which the narration tries to play of by having her say, "I thought it was." As if sister was just testing a hypothesis in science class and not SA a man. That aside Simon for sure was taking advantage of her lack of sexual knowledge. He loved her and wanted to be with her and so he intentionally ignored all the signs that Daphne knew nothing about the way babies are made.
I absolutely love to listen to people's perspectives on what happened in both situations in this episode. The contrasting viewpoints make for such good discussions. I agree with Igli on the moral dilemmas presented being very interesting indeed. I can see both Daphne and Simon's viewpoints and none of them were particularly in the right here. They both did horrible things to one another. Daphne is uninformed and naive about sex and reproduction and most likely the whole concept of consent. Very common at that time especially if you hadn't been married before or wasn't of low status in society. Didn't men know this fact? I do wonder about that. That doesn't justify her sexually assaulting Simon, but I do understand that she probably didn't even know that what she was doing was wrong. Corey has a point; I believe that Simon said "can't" because he takes the vow he made very seriously and wouldn't permit himself to go against it whatsoever. He lied to Daphne about his ability to have children or at least told a half-truth which was where the problem began. Perhaps if he had explained more in detail to her earlier as to why he wouldn't have children then she would have been able to understand that there is a difference between can't and won't in terms of bearing children and she could have married someone else possibly. (Though because of the position she was in being caught in the garden she didn't have a choice back then) Even if she still married Simon, she would still know the truth. One of the biggest problems in their relationship was the lack of honesty and open communication with one another which would have averted this entire situation. Simon practically refused to further communicate with Daphne and had trouble expressing himself due to the trauma he was still struggling to overcome due to how his father treated him as a child. I saw a brief moment when he asked Daphne what she did after she trapped him. He stammered again. As for Simon assuming Daphne had prior knowledge as to how children were produced; I have always questioned that because of the conversation they had in episode 3 about masturbation and his comments about how he was surprised at how little mothers tell their daughters. But perhaps he thought that Daphne got an in-depth talk about it before she was sent off to her honeymoon (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt). Again, assumptions will cause you to believe what's not true. Maybe if he had asked on the wedding night if she knew what would happen between them then he would realize that she was truly ignorant in the situation. But whatever happened, happened. I cannot clearly assess as to whether he took advantage of her innocence on purpose, but I can see both of their perspectives and how they would be hurt by what took place. They both are accountable for actions that hurt the other. This could have been avoided if women were taught more about sex and reproduction at the time and Simon honestly and openly communicated his feelings to Daphne about his father and worked through the problem together. But I love the way the story unfolded, and it made for an excellent display of complex writing and great television that people are still having discussions about. I love it! ❤😄
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“Don’t let her wrap her legs around you, Simon” 😭😭😭😭
Here’s the issue with Simon’s choices tho. She was going to marry someone else who did want to have children. But he followed her outside and compromised her. She no longer had the choice to choose the husband or the children. That action was taken in bad faith knowing they’d be forced to marry. What Daphne did wasn’t acceptable by modern standards. If you factor in her lack of understanding anything about sex, it gets grayer.
Both plots, Daphne and Marina, are different illustrations of what happens when girls and women aren’t taught anything about their bodies and sex. They’re caught in situations where they have no say or control. And it then rebounds in ways that hurt others, like Simon or Colin. It’s a discussion about all the ways the social structures do harm.
As for Penelope, I think she’s upset about both but she’d be happy for him if he was genuinely happy. But I think being tricked into marriage by someone who doesn’t love you isn’t going to make for a happy life either.
💯 Preach!
Yes, to all of this. If Marina truly loved Colin and she thought they would be happy together, Penelope would have still been heartbroken, but she wouldn't have tried to break them up. But knowing Colin is going to get his heart broken too pushes it over the edge. And she tried everything she could to do it without compromising Marina, including going to her directly multiple times. This doesn't excuse her exposing Marina's secret, but she's not acting purely selfishly out of jealousy.
@@rbrainsop1I think people forget Penelope and Colin have been friends since childhood, her loyalty should be with Colin, not the girl she just met a few months ago. In my opinion, Penelope should have told Colin as soon as she found out Marina’s plan. I understand she didn’t want to compromise her, or her family, but her silence made everything so much worse.
I agree with all of this.
We get a hint of what life for Colin would be like if he married her. But I won't say more right now.
Imagine realizing that the man you married was more than happy to go the whole marriage letting you believe his lies. Daphnie didn't understand the pulling out, thought it was painful, she had no idea what was happening, Simon was happy to keep her ignorant because it made his life easier. Easier than having to tell the truth.
He claims he believed she knew, but I doubt that very much, especially when she thought he was in pain.
Daphne should have brought this up in conversation, rather than trying to prove the point and then discuss it afterwards.
I could be wrong but I’ve always gotten the impression that Marina is more educated than the women in the ton, so she knew what sex was before George. She grew up poorer in the country, on a farm and therefore likely had to do household chores, etc and would be more knowledgeable. Remember in episode 1 when Eloise asks how a woman comes to be with child and Colin asks if she’s ever been to a farm. I think women on farms understood fertility more just because of their proximity to animals.
This is further supported by the fact that Marina knows she’s pregnant when she misses her period before Portia confronts her. She understood what not bleeding meant on her own, which suggests she had at least a rudimentary knowledge of how children are made.
the narrator/lady whistledown voice is not the actual voice of who writes it. they did this on purpose to keep her identity secret until the reveal
The narrator is Julie Andrews 👍🏼
@ yep! i’m aware. just making it clear that julie is not an actual character in the show herself
Penelope is not acting out of jealousy. I don’t know if you guys noticed in ep 1, but when both families are leaving their homes to attend the girls presentation to the queen, you can see they live directly across from one another. Penelope and Eloise are the same age and Colin is 3 years older than them. He and Penelope have been close friends practically their whole lives. I don’t fault you for not seeing it because season 1 doesn’t showcase their friendship that much. Penelope might be in love with Colin, but she also cares for him a lot, that’s why she doesn’t want to see him tricked into a loveless marriage, and fooled into thinking Marina’s child is his. Also, Colin is nothing like his brothers. He actually believes in love, and doesn’t want to spend his life fooling around like them, he wants a marriage like the one his parents had.
We need to watch Queen Charlottes soon
After season 2 they've said they will
A lot of women never discuss sex with their children. My mother never did. I didn't have sex ed at school. I just figured it out on my own. The difference between then and now, back then NO women discussed sex, it was a societal taboo for the upper class. I'm pretty sure the lower rung of society did though, found out the way I did.
I think it's so interesting to see how trauma can affect you to such a degree that you turn into the thing or person you don't want to become. Simon's father acted selfishly about continuing the Hastings lineage while Simon is also acting selfishly by adamantly wanting to discontinue the Hastings lineage and disregarding his wife's feelings. He possibly has fears about being the same father to his children that his dad was to him. I think all of that factored into him making the vow in the first place other than spiting his father.
Blake's take is not it. Penelope was protecting her lifelong friend, and obviously boy who she has a crush on, from getting scammed into a fraudulent marriage. Marina was using Collin and was going to pretend that it was his child. That's beyond messed up, especially because he is a kid himself and not ready for marriage yet, hence why he isn't courting women like his older brother's should be doing. Also, although Daphne trying to entrap Simon is not acceptable either, he not only lied to her about not being able to have children, leading her to believe he CAN'T have them, he also selfishly took away her chance of having a husband with whom she would be able to have a family, the Prince. If he loved her and knew she wanted a family, then he wouldn't have interfered in that and let her go and have the life she wanted. But each time he pulled out, and didn't tell her what he was doing, was a smack in the face. I would feel so betrayed.
Colin is older than Marina and Daphne so the argument that he's a child is out of the window. Marina had no choice but to pass her child off on another since she hadn't heard from George. Penelope saw nothing wrong with it until it was Colin. She was raised just like Daphne and Penelope. She would've been cast out of society, pregnant and with no money and no skills for work or childcare to even try to work. Also, Marina does like Colin, she's not in love with him but I don't think she would have been a horrible wife to him either.
@@Carpathianpixie Idk, I don't sympathize with Marina when she's being so sneaky and manipulative.
@@CarpathianpixieColin may be older but he’s incredibly naive. Marina recognized that and definitely used it to her advantage. In the regency era love matches were incredibly rare, she had the option to find a practical match with someone who would’ve provided for her and the baby but, she’d either need to marry someone older like Portia was trying, which she understandably didn’t want, or she’d have to try and convince someone younger to marry her, which would’ve been challenging. She zeroes in on Colin because like she told Penelope, he was eager and didn’t play games with his affections, so she knew he was someone she could easily manipulate into getting what she wanted with no regard for his feelings. Colin is a romantic, he dreamed of a love like his parents and Marina tricked him into believing she loved him. That’s incredibly cruel. She had other options, she chose the one she liked most and didn’t care who she hurt along the way.
@@Carpathianpixie your entitled to your wrong opinion. Marina knows the consequences so acting before marriage in this time and she made her choice she can take her consequence to her own actions and leave Colin out if it, no he isnt a child but he also isnt mentally an adult and is still very immature and his family sees that in this rush to marry her
Oh the head slap, I'm excited for you guys to find out who Lady Whistledown is!
Yes, the reveal was awesome 👏
Lady Whistledown has eyes everywhere
Respect to Rose. A great lady's maid. Right up there with Anna.
Rose is the best, but who's Anna?
@@quz908 I assume they are referring to Anna Smith/Bates from Downton Abby. She was Lady Mary's Lady's maid.
The actress who does the voice for "Lady Whistledown" her name is Julie Andrews. She`s in the Despicable Me movies, The Princess Diaries movies, she`s even the original Mary Poppins in Mary Poppins.
Also The Sound of Music
This is such a painful episode for everyone. What Daphne did to Simon was messed up af and the moment Marina manipulated Colin into arranging that elopement, the time for finding better solutions ran out and that situation was doomed to end unhappily for either him or her.
Edit: I love Igli's input at the end of this episode about how no one is right in this episode and that your perspective will depend on which characters you're rooting for more, because that's so true. For example, had Colin and Marina made it out the door at the end of this episode, Colin would've ended up thrown under the bus in a loveless marriage, his kindness being taken advantage of. Because they were stopped, Marina ended up under the bus instead. How someone feels about that will depend on which character's well-being each individual viewer prioritize.
Edit 2: If Marina and Colin were either just flirting or genuinely in love and Pen was meddling or sabotaging, it would be fair to say that Pen was just motivated by jealousy, but seeing as Colin is being lured into a lifelong commitment that he is too good and honorable to turn his back on even if he is miserable for the rest of his life, I don't think romantic feelings even would have needed to be a factor to want to save him from this. Not saying that there isn't jealousy here, but it's also love for him. No one who loves Colin would want this to happen to him.
This is how I saw it. They have been friends practically their whole lives, of course she doesn’t want to see Marina take advantage of him.
She was motivated by jealousy everyone needs to be fr. And that is okay. She's still a kid. It makes sense. Because she could have outright just told Colin if it was about protecting him lol.
@@tshegofatso9021As I said, Imo it was *both* jealousy and not wanting Colin to be scammed into a lifelong commitment, as Pen put it herself. Jealousy obviously very much will be there in this scenario, kid or not. But it also goes without saying to me that anyone who genuinely loves Colin, (romantically or platonically) and who learns about this scheme, would be strongly opposed to it. The obvious solution is going straight to Colin with the full truth, but being a kid living in the Featherington household with the people who are doing said scamming certainly makes that a harder step to take, because with the amount of times Pen had told them not to do this to Colin specifically, it wouldn't take them long to figure out who told on them. It is a complicated and nuanced situation all around.
One that always bugged me about Simon's plot is how he actually thought he could keep up this pull-out plan for the 20+ years of fertility Daphne still had, especially doing it as constantly as they do (and that she wouldn't find out sooner or later). Neutering would be painful but safer brother
THIS
So true
They didn't have vasectomies back then and Simon has been pulling out since he became active so he probably thought he was a pro by that point.
@@Carpathianpixie oh I know. I was thinking eunuch type stuff. But I guess he wasn't as committed to the promise huh
But it wasn’t the plan though..? He said he won’t marry her and was willing to die. She then told everyone that they were to get married.
I hope whoever edited this episode had fun 😂
I'm pretty sure it was Corey based on Blake giving him advice on what he would do if editing. Also the zooms on Blake and Igli's faces after the other said something to insult them.
I’ve been really enjoying you guys reacting to this show 😊 I also think that Queen Charlotte should be next!
season 2 is already on the patreon!
Unprepared for getting flashed, just wait until Season 3 😁
Yh that scene in season 3 was crazy 😭😂
Igli's hair is looking kind of dope.
13:46 they’re married now it isn’t considered improper anymore
I laughed out loud at the vervain reference.
One thing on Simon: he is still very much affected by his father's abuse and struggles to express himself- you didn't comment on it in this abbreviated video, so I don't know if it was in your longer commentary, but his stammer came back at the start of their argument. That doesn't mean he's 100% in the clear for every aspect of his behavior, but the scene where he's talking about how hard he feared it would be for Daphne to interact with that child does ring like he truthfully thought she understood the situation... which may be in part because he didn't want to yet fully "realize" (comprehend) that she didn't understand what she'd agreed to. It's a messy situation, and like Igli said, part of the show's appeal can be that every character is really mired in their own struggles and needs and wants, and there is a struggle to find a balance for the characters to get happy endings.
I don’t know how I feel about your take dude. It’s entrapment for 18/19 year old Daphne who knows nothing about sex other than what her 29 year old husband has told her, but it’s not entrapment for 19 year old Marina who is trying to fool 19/20 year old Colin into believing the child she’s already carrying is his?
I know google says Daphne is 21, that’s because that’s how old she is in the books when she marries because it took her until her 3rd season to find a husband. Here Daphne married her first season out. Since women are presented at 17, and Lady Bridgerton allowed Eloise a year off before being presented, one can assume she did the same for Daphne.
Im confused as to how Blake is not okay with Daphne trapping Simon with his own kid. But its okay for Marina to basically honey trap Colin and pass off her kid as his. Just so that shes okay. I think thats worse. She's pretending to love him. To be so infatuated with him she can't wait to marry. And then pretend she got pregnant right away. Only to tell him later on it was all a lie. Simon and Daphne need to learn better communication and conflict resolution. Marina is being selfish and a liar. Which would then make Colin a fool and to his society a cuckold. The only person not at fault here is Colin due to ignorance. But the other three are completely wrong. Good intentions, ignorance or not. They are making decisions that adversely affect another.
I genuinely don’t understand how anyone is ok with what Marina did to Colin. You can feel badly for her and understand that as a woman she had very few options, but she chose Colin based on the calculation that he was eager for love and didn’t hide his emotions. She immediately clocked that she could manipulate him and started to pretend she loved him and just wanted to be his family, constantly making herself out to be a victim, like saying no one wants her in the hallway, so that he’d feel compelled to save her.
It would be one thing if she tried to find a practical match, but to pretend to be in love with someone that you know is naive so that you can trick him into marrying you, with him thinking he’s finally found a woman who will take him seriously, is just cruel. At least Simon and Daphne actually loved each other.
@crystalpritchard5065 omg, yes. What Daphne and Simon did was bad. But it was also not malicious in its intent. Marina was both calculating and manipulative. I just can't see how ppl think she was some sort of victim. She acted as if she understood her situation and was fine with it. Now, all of a sudden, she needs to secure herself at the expense of someone tolerable. That isn't seeing it from her perspective. That's just being downright horrible and not thinking of anyone but yourself. They may not be desirable but there were those that wouldn't care about her being pregnant.
@@lindyramdass1262 I also have less sympathy for Marina because, unlike a lot of people, I don’t think she was as naive as Daphne, or other women in the ton. The first thing we’re told about her is that she grew up in the country, on a farm. She’s also not as wealthy as the Featheringtons so presumably would’ve had to help out on the farm, which leads me to believe that she has at least a rudimentary understanding of how babies are made. The show even kind of teases this when Colin asks Eloise if she’s ever been to a farm after she asks how a woman comes to be with child.
Also, Marina knew she was pregnant before Portia told her, she therefore understood that not getting her period meant she was pregnant. It’s unclear if Daphne even knew that before her conversation with the maid. So while I don’t fault Marina for getting pregnant, I also don’t think George took advantage of her, I think she understood the risks before she slept with him and did it anyway. So I don’t see it the same as Daphne whose lack of knowledge was actively exploited by Simon.
9:49 i can't believe he actually said that wtf lmao
Also nice reactions guys
still not Victorian. A whole other George and a William before we get to Victoria and thus Victorian.
“Throwing seed away” I’m sick!!!
No, he thought she knew how babies were made as he said, "I thought you were prepared." Mother's told their daughters after they are engaged how babies are made, preparing them. Also, she would have married Simon even if he said I can have kids, but I just won't. She was going to marry Burbrooke so her and her family would not be ruined, so she would have done the same with Simon because Cressida saw them. Remember, he didn't ask her to marry him. It was all her idea to marry.
Exactly.
Definitely watch Queen Charlotte in between season 2 and 3
It's so funny that Igli is so sure Eloise is Whistledown. What do you mean there's no other explanation? If Pen knew about Marina she too could be Whistledown right?
Shhh they don’t know 🤫
@Cailey_forman actually they do. They've already started season two on their patreon.
What Daphne did is down right rape. It is so messed up I feel so bad for Simon, even if he lied she had no right to take that from him.
The only defence I’ll make for Simon is perhaps he assumed Violet sat Daphne down and had the birds and bees talk post-engagement-pre-wedding. However, what Simon failed to realise is that women were not talked to about sex the same way men were (yay patriarchy). Men were probably told explicitly to make sure they didn’t make any children out of wedlock, but Violet certainly isn’t the only mother to speak to her child in metaphors regarding sex as it was extremely taboo (thank god schools now have sex ed because my mum never sat me down to have ‘the talk’, likely because grandma never did with her). Completely agree, both Daphne and Simon were in the wrong in this situation. I know a lot of book fans were hoping this scene would be axed/changed (according to my TikTok FYP at the time).
Simon definitely took advantage of Daphne's naivete because if he had to explain what masturbating was, he had to know she didnt know how babies were made also. However, what Daphne did was marital SA even though it was due to ignorance.
TAYLOR SWIFT AND AVRIL LAVIGN SOUND SIMILAR? EXSQUEEEEEZE ME BLAKE????
how dare you.
Oh gentlemen! These reactions have been wonderful! Please please do Queen Charlotte next 🤗
season 2 is next and then queen charlotte!
i hope u guys watch queen charlotte, bridgerton spin off, before watching the third season
Men watching these scenes are so funny 🤣🤣
Gentlemen would you please react to Shonda Rhimes show "Scandal". It is an epic ride and I think that you guys would love it.
Dont judge Daphne by modern standards. She literally didnt know anything about anything a weeks before. Being a wife and a mother was the whole identity of a woman at the time, and all she learnt was he was keeping her from it deliberately. About consent, you would be surprised at the rates about how many people even today have no idea about marital grape, let alone a noble girl in the regency era.
Also, I get why Marina did it, but when she chose to go ahead with it even after learning her lover did not betray her, and that Pen loved Colin, I gave up on her. Although I admit, Whistledown was harsh and completely ruined her.
I’m so with you, Blake! Finally someone has the same perspective that I do about the Penelope & Marina situation.
Cuz where was all that energy when it came to all the other men in the Ton that the Featherington’s wanted Marina to deceive??
Yep, just an episode or so before this, Penelope was throwing out random guys for Marina to do it to instead- she says at some point something to the effect of "just not Colin." And as Marina said in a previous episode, was she supposed to deceive a bad man who she would then be stuck in marriage and raising a child with? What Marina did isn't right, but Penelope's objection was that she personally cared about the target (which she's not wrong to do) rather than objecting to the plan altogether.
The issue isn’t just that Marina is deceiving Colin into marrying her, it’s that she actively tricked him into thinking she loved him. Penelope knows that Colin is a romantic and that he believes in love, he wants a love match not a practical match, as was common in the regency era. The older gentlemen that Portia was suggesting for Marina wouldn’t have been under the impression that Marina loved them, they’d have understood it was basically a business arrangement. Similarly, if she’d gone after someone else and made it out to be a practical match, the deception would’ve been different. She has a dowry that might have attracted an untitled man into a practical marriage. On the other hand, if Marina genuinely loved Colin and they’d have been happy together, Penelope wouldn’t have interfered.
Another huge difference is that Colin has been a long life friend of hers and the brother of her best friend. Even if she didn’t have feelings for Colin, Penelope’s best interest is still going to be her life friend over a long distance relative she just met, who has other options to deceive.
Daphne assuned that Simon wasn't able to have kids. Simon meant that he couldn't have kids because of how strong his negative feelings towards his father were. Everyone's getting hung up on wording and "can't have kids" vs "won't have kids." I just think that there was a lack of proper communication all around. In this time period, you just married someone. You didn't really give them your whole life story first, but with how Simon felt about Daphne, he really should have explained why children were not on the table. On the other hand, someone really should have given Daphne the sex talk before she got married. Nobody's fault, but hurt feelings on both ends.
Also, with everyone getting caught up on proper English and proper wording of things, seriously? We say, "Ugh, i can't," when we don't like something, when it gives us the ick. That's not proper wording. "Ugh, look at the color of that sweater. I can't." No, actually, you can. You just won't.
The way Simon chose to word it is incredibly important to the storyline. People aren’t getting caught up in it, the implication of can’t versus won’t changes the entirety of the issue. Simon implied to Daphne that he couldn’t have children, she correctly assumed, based on his wording choice, that it would be physically impossible for them to have children. The show glosses over it but Daphne’s knowledge is so bad that for a while she assumes they can’t even consummate the marriage, that Simon can’t physically even have sex with her, not that she knows what it entails. If Simon had told her he wouldn’t have children, it becomes clear that it is a choice, removing his betrayal entirely from the scenario. Like the wording is the whole point. It’s not that in that time they didn’t give their life stories to each other before marriage, it’s that Simon purposely misconstrued the issue making Daphne believe he physically didn’t have the ability to give her children, that neither of them had a choice in the matter.
French being my first language, I don’t find Marina’s french very good. I have to read subtitles to understand her 🤯
It got the point across to Madame Delacroix, and that's all that matters.
Guys please react to "Squid Game" if you haven't yet
With lady whistle down they pull a gossip girl, in gossip girl Kristen bell voices the column to hide the character that is gossip girl they do the same here with Julie Andrews
😁👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
is it possible to know what happened to Dark? it should have been done after GoT was over
no, bridgerton won the sunday series poll. dark will replace the fall of the house usher on wednesdays
they are up to ep 3 of season 1 of dark already on the patreon!
💙Coliope🧡
It's Polin
@SubKween I know, but I like this better 😍
No hands down Daphne and Simon were both wrong no question. However the question on if Simon was knowingly moving on bad faith, I believe yes. I believe he had to have had an inkling of knowing she doesn't know but decided to to play ignorant.
Because he taught/explained to her on how to masterbate, then during their third or fourth round of sex she asked him if him Cummings hurts. And mind you she didn't even know what to call what was happening to him. So she asked, "Does it, hurt?" There is no chance in h e double hockey stick Simone can sit here and honestly say he thought she knew.
It doesn't take away the wrongess of Daphne's actions which the narration tries to play of by having her say, "I thought it was." As if sister was just testing a hypothesis in science class and not SA a man. That aside Simon for sure was taking advantage of her lack of sexual knowledge. He loved her and wanted to be with her and so he intentionally ignored all the signs that Daphne knew nothing about the way babies are made.
Everyone's actions suck in this episode, Daphne's was the worst one in my opinion.
Yeah, lot of SA apologists in these comments as usual.
I absolutely love to listen to people's perspectives on what happened in both situations in this episode. The contrasting viewpoints make for such good discussions. I agree with Igli on the moral dilemmas presented being very interesting indeed. I can see both Daphne and Simon's viewpoints and none of them were particularly in the right here. They both did horrible things to one another. Daphne is uninformed and naive about sex and reproduction and most likely the whole concept of consent. Very common at that time especially if you hadn't been married before or wasn't of low status in society. Didn't men know this fact? I do wonder about that. That doesn't justify her sexually assaulting Simon, but I do understand that she probably didn't even know that what she was doing was wrong. Corey has a point; I believe that Simon said "can't" because he takes the vow he made very seriously and wouldn't permit himself to go against it whatsoever. He lied to Daphne about his ability to have children or at least told a half-truth which was where the problem began. Perhaps if he had explained more in detail to her earlier as to why he wouldn't have children then she would have been able to understand that there is a difference between can't and won't in terms of bearing children and she could have married someone else possibly. (Though because of the position she was in being caught in the garden she didn't have a choice back then) Even if she still married Simon, she would still know the truth. One of the biggest problems in their relationship was the lack of honesty and open communication with one another which would have averted this entire situation. Simon practically refused to further communicate with Daphne and had trouble expressing himself due to the trauma he was still struggling to overcome due to how his father treated him as a child. I saw a brief moment when he asked Daphne what she did after she trapped him. He stammered again. As for Simon assuming Daphne had prior knowledge as to how children were produced; I have always questioned that because of the conversation they had in episode 3 about masturbation and his comments about how he was surprised at how little mothers tell their daughters. But perhaps he thought that Daphne got an in-depth talk about it before she was sent off to her honeymoon (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt). Again, assumptions will cause you to believe what's not true. Maybe if he had asked on the wedding night if she knew what would happen between them then he would realize that she was truly ignorant in the situation. But whatever happened, happened. I cannot clearly assess as to whether he took advantage of her innocence on purpose, but I can see both of their perspectives and how they would be hurt by what took place. They both are accountable for actions that hurt the other. This could have been avoided if women were taught more about sex and reproduction at the time and Simon honestly and openly communicated his feelings to Daphne about his father and worked through the problem together. But I love the way the story unfolded, and it made for an excellent display of complex writing and great television that people are still having discussions about. I love it! ❤😄
It’s actually the regency era not victorian , that came after when Queen Victoria became Queen. At this point she wasn’t born yet 💕
Is it just me or is Blake the cutest?
User reacting to vampire sibling the song RUclips