After telling us how much one would be judged by whether they could drink from those wine glasses without spilling on themselves, it would have been great to have a demonstration!
Michael is a truly knowable professor about ancient Greece culture and this topic he put across each detail about the "symposium" which is a compelling topic.
Amazingly fluid discussion - hard to believe there is scarcely any editing. I was left wondering about the vessels Michael chooses when he hosts symposia. A bit like seeing the menus on the Titanic - could we have a few themed parties please. My favourite of these vessels is a rather salacious affair found in the display at the Petit Palais, and I was delighted beyond belief when visiting Syracuse to find its equivalent except with a female where a male is depicted in Paris. Much to talk about!
This is a really thought-provoking conversation, especially as I am a scientist who goes to modern day symposia frequently. Every once in a while, though, there is an open bar. Perhaps as a throwback to ancient symposia?
I don't think they covered this but i was asking myself that besides socializing if they celebrated particular occasions on symposiums and found that: "They were held on the occasion of family celebrations, city celebrations, sports victories, poetry competitions, and the arrival or departure of a friend."
honestly the 'symposium culture' of ancient greece reminds me a lot of the hazing/initiations in modern day fraternity culture. Highly visible and slightly painful/humiliating method social exclusion between 'the men' and younger boys, a bunch of traditions designed to prank people who aren't in on the joke, tons of naked people doing weird shit
You mentioned that there was a game to try to throw the "dregs of the wine" into a container. The engineer in me (BSME US Naval Academy) says that the shape of the wine vessels was key. If the wine was constantly being mixed with water before being served, I suspect that there was sediment in the original wine flask and the mixing with water stirred up the sediment. Using a wide mouthed, shallow wine cup would allow the sediment filled wine to settle while it was being consumed. The sediments would begin to fall to the bottom of the drinking vessel as soon as the wine was poured. The large area of the top of the drinking vessel would assist in the drinker getting the most sediment free wine with every sip. And the sediment laden wine was used for the game.
I think it's because they wanna demonstrate it was different from, say, a roman orgy wich is maybe the common image we have of an ancient world party... In fact I think they're doing more of a juxtaposition than an analogy
I think they were trying to stress the emphasis on the fact that for the Greeks this was more similar to the stereotypical men gathering for a drink a la a modern pub as opposed to a formal dinner which is closer to an ancient feast. Personally I’d sooner equate a symposium with the concept of the men withdrawing to the smoke room , where men partook in cigars and brandy/whisky as that carries both the concept of consumption of alcohol and the social aspect of in-group (class) based gathering and discussion.
Great talk! I was thinking, as I was 4 beers in, that those eyes on the vessel looked very funny, like a mask, when he lifted it up. Comedy is a Greek word and maybe the Greeks thought these eyes looked funny as someone drank...like I said, 4 beers in and I laughed because the guy looked ridiculous when acting as if he was drinking. Also, liked the fact that you admitted that athenian democracy was reliant on slavery. Really liked this. Ευχαριστώ πολύ Dr. M. Scott
No speculations. Tons of party artifacts depict just that. These broad cups, however, were not the only ones being in use at parties. Plenty of ancient painted objects depicting men drinking from vertical vessels.
I wonder with the cup design that there wasn't deliberate attempt to exclude not only the uncouth barbarian (as mentioned) but the elderly and infirm. And if so, was this a social exclusion or a practical matter of keeping those who might be sick away from those who were healthy?
Very interesting. It makes me think about the Italian custom where the Italians are said to be able to tell what sort of person you are by the shoes you wear. I have heard that it does not mean that if you were the shoes of a diva that they consider you good but if you wear well made shoes and it is evident that they are worn during you participating in hard work they consider that you have a good character. Apart from the prostitutes being in attendance the intellectual side of the Greek events is a refreshing view of their character.
I wouldn't compare a Greek Hetaira (Courtesan) to your typical prostitute but more so to a Japanese Oiran and Tayu. They were women trained and educated in the arts, philosophy, politics, maths and sciences, rhetoric and debate, as well as the sexual arts. Greek men married women out of family politics and civic duty, not out of love, while the hetairai were bred to be the lovers of the Greek elite, a woman of near equal status to them. These women were of a whole other calibre compared to any other Greek woman and most Greek women would even follow the fashion trends and the behavior of hetairai like one would a celebrity, while every Greek man would dream of having one as a lover. If you called a hetaira a porne (a prostitute and where the word pornography comes from) then you would be making a grievous mistake and would have quite a few men ready to defend her honour.
Sometimes I wonder if the conclusions being made are correct. Maybe the large drinking vessel was an olive bowl or something else, and no small drinking vessel (wine cup) survived or has been found. There may have been small “disposable” plain clay small vessels that were broken intentionally or accidentally. Maybe the servants poured wine directly into the mouth. Of course someone would have written about this sort of Greek trivia. They wrote about everything. I love Greek history.
All these things - eyes on the receptacle etc - to me obviously means. "Dude handle your shit - be cool - you're not a fucking barbarian." And goddamm I wish we had more of that attitude today - when the idea seems to be - who can more 'act the fool'; NOT handle their shit.
Love the hot Professor Scott portraying partying in ancient greek culture, discussing potty pottery- and those goblets are truly of a dizzying diameter- and of course, clearing up what occurred in the Symposium! There is a huge movement and focus on women not being involved, as a mature woman, I honestly would prefer to stay out of mens collective drinking, debauchery, and discussions of destruction via wars...let us not forget, in this very different time...the hubby would have to return and answer to his wife no?..discuss daily life with her when he was not at war no?..and mothers, wives sisters were lavished with gifts cloth, gold, silver and potty pottery!...i honestly believe women would prefer this than to be involved in the mechanism of running societies and planning wars!... I think women were revered as spiritual for example the great Oracle was a woman there were princesses and queens who were women there were cortisans in high places who were women and finally the city of Athens is named after the goddess Athena who conquered the land of Greece, so I don't think women were pushed out of the way as we all like to perceive, to fit todays narratives! but I think they were seen as feminine and treated by men as such. Do you all honestly believe a grecian mother seeing her son misbehave wouldnt get a clout with a broomstick? Nor dicuss psychology with her husband at home raising children?...no!...thats not life or living and Greeks lived and loved with passion. In this way i believe men and women worked together! That is my view 😊💜🙏
Michael Scott looks a lot different these days. I remember when he did his series on the Greek theater and that seemed like it wasn't that long ago but it must have been. I saw it on RUclips so it was probably several years old at that point.
Quizzing over the shape of the wine glass, this guy has obviously never drunk Retina. It's rough as guts and needs as much breathing as it can get just to make it palatable.
From a woman’s perspective, not so much fun to be excluded from the Greek symposiums 🤣 but love the explanation of pre-pub life as we know it. Sounds like the hangover was likely to be very similar! 🤢
Women were present at reputable Greek symposia, but not the wives. These were dancers, lute players and hetaerae, known for their beauty, intelligence and art of love making.
@@ViktoriousDead Nope *it is actually in fact solely not* you definitely know nothing of Ancient Greek traditions so it's most truly not "highly unlikely" but actually in fact *highly FACTUALLY* that Greeks *DEFINITELY VOMITED* during symposium especially since Romans literally copied from Greeks. You must be a lying biased Anatoloroman the known inhabitants of Greekistan now day that *larp* as "Greeks" and we **offende you* your Greeks. *You spew so much without actually saying nothing.* Eat the potato now *that you "learned" to pull even your tongue.* I *tame* your tongue, I, *ha.*
21:09 Nice theory but far fetched, I believe these aren't for drinking but for Incense and Embers for religious rituals. why would they bury cups of wine in their graves?
You can believe that but you would be very wrong. we have murals, writings and fresko from the period made by the Greeks themselves showing them using these cups exactly as described in the video. type "Simposium" into Wikipedia and you'll see several contemporary examples of them being used for drink.
One of the main offerings for the dead in Greece was unmixed wine. We even see tubes in some graves. So... have a cup to hold the offerings. Also incense offerings were for Ouranic or heavenly gods, not underworld ones. So sorry, but no. These were not incense holders for offerings. Also their incense holders didn't look like this.
Fascinating and engaging conversation, evoking the "symposium" in intriguing ways. Michael hasn't lost his touch. Good to see him.
Glad you enjoyed!
Thank you
For all yours
Wonderfull
Series,
Regards from
Croatia
@@HistoryHit well done Tristan best ever still wish you would come back to do the documentaries on Kings and generals again
Keep bringing this man back, he's very entertaining and I can never get enough of Greco-Roman culture knowledge!!
Thank you Michael for sharing your vast and intimate knowledge of symposiums with us! Prost!
Can't wait to watch more programs by Michael 👍
I watch greek documentaries for years now, and i never learn so much things in one video. That was so refreshing and stimulating, thank you a lot !
After telling us how much one would be judged by whether they could drink from those wine glasses without spilling on themselves, it would have been great to have a demonstration!
Fascinating conversation about the performativity and planned nature of the symposium and the power of the symposiarch within the space.
He has a very clear and amusing style of lecturing or discussing a subject. Always interesting, nice to see him
Michael is a truly knowable professor about ancient Greece culture and this topic he put across each detail about the "symposium" which is a compelling topic.
This was amazing!! Thank you to Tristan and Michael Scott.
Muchas gracias por compartir este tremendo tema. Dr. Michael, tremendo pedagogo de la historia.
Fantastic! I love Dr Michael, he brings the stories to life with such enthusiasm 👏👏 fascinating 😊
I need a wine glass, I've got a balancing act to perfect.
That was awesome I love learning about Ancient Greece, if I could travel in time that’s the first place I’d go
I'd probably choose Knossos!
Amazingly fluid discussion - hard to believe there is scarcely any editing. I was left wondering about the vessels Michael chooses when he hosts symposia. A bit like seeing the menus on the Titanic - could we have a few themed parties please.
My favourite of these vessels is a rather salacious affair found in the display at the Petit Palais, and I was delighted beyond belief when visiting Syracuse to find its equivalent except with a female where a male is depicted in Paris. Much to talk about!
This is a really thought-provoking conversation, especially as I am a scientist who goes to modern day symposia frequently. Every once in a while, though, there is an open bar. Perhaps as a throwback to ancient symposia?
You know I’m something of a scientist myself
We just love to mimic the ancients, don't we? 😁
This was delightful!
Can't get away from etiquette and social hierarchy, no matter where or when!
Amazing video!! These symposiums actually look like a lot of fun, I’d love to see Mr Scott try to drink from these vases
I don't think they covered this but i was asking myself that besides socializing if they celebrated particular occasions on symposiums and found that: "They were held on the occasion of family celebrations, city celebrations, sports victories, poetry competitions, and the arrival or departure of a friend."
honestly the 'symposium culture' of ancient greece reminds me a lot of the hazing/initiations in modern day fraternity culture. Highly visible and slightly painful/humiliating method social exclusion between 'the men' and younger boys, a bunch of traditions designed to prank people who aren't in on the joke, tons of naked people doing weird shit
You mentioned that there was a game to try to throw the "dregs of the wine" into a container. The engineer in me (BSME US Naval Academy) says that the shape of the wine vessels was key. If the wine was constantly being mixed with water before being served, I suspect that there was sediment in the original wine flask and the mixing with water stirred up the sediment. Using a wide mouthed, shallow wine cup would allow the sediment filled wine to settle while it was being consumed. The sediments would begin to fall to the bottom of the drinking vessel as soon as the wine was poured. The large area of the top of the drinking vessel would assist in the drinker getting the most sediment free wine with every sip. And the sediment laden wine was used for the game.
Michael Scott you say?
Oh wow, a historian shares the name of a fictional character. You must be very intelligent for noticing that.
@@joshuataylor3550 you gonna reply to everyone who says that joke?
Yeah, grow up
Is the repeated analogy with being in a pub accurate? Wasn't it rather a posh dinner party?
That would be more similar - rituals, status displays...
I think it's because they wanna demonstrate it was different from, say, a roman orgy wich is maybe the common image we have of an ancient world party... In fact I think they're doing more of a juxtaposition than an analogy
I think they were trying to stress the emphasis on the fact that for the Greeks this was more similar to the stereotypical men gathering for a drink a la a modern pub as opposed to a formal dinner which is closer to an ancient feast.
Personally I’d sooner equate a symposium with the concept of the men withdrawing to the smoke room , where men partook in cigars and brandy/whisky as that carries both the concept of consumption of alcohol and the social aspect of in-group (class) based gathering and discussion.
Great talk! I was thinking, as I was 4 beers in, that those eyes on the vessel looked very funny, like a mask, when he lifted it up. Comedy is a Greek word and maybe the Greeks thought these eyes looked funny as someone drank...like I said, 4 beers in and I laughed because the guy looked ridiculous when acting as if he was drinking. Also, liked the fact that you admitted that athenian democracy was reliant on slavery. Really liked this. Ευχαριστώ πολύ Dr. M. Scott
16:43 isn't that an amphora though 😅?
I am Greek and I can confirm that's how we drink wine
Michael went from selling papers to writing papers
Wow, Michael Scott has really let himself go and somehow acquired an English accent. Oh, how times have changed.
Oh wow, a historian shares the name of a fictional character. You must be very intelligent for noticing that.
@@joshuataylor3550 keep quiet you simple minded human.
Grow up
@@monkeytennis8861 can’t even make a joke these days.
So funny the cups are 3 times the volume of the wine jug. I'm assuming these being the drinking vessels is documented not speculated.
No speculations. Tons of party artifacts depict just that. These broad cups, however, were not the only ones being in use at parties. Plenty of ancient painted objects depicting men drinking from vertical vessels.
I wonder with the cup design that there wasn't deliberate attempt to exclude not only the uncouth barbarian (as mentioned) but the elderly and infirm. And if so, was this a social exclusion or a practical matter of keeping those who might be sick away from those who were healthy?
And you're expected to take part in a social conversation so you were also excluded if you cannot keep up with what was being discussed.
The Greek elderly and the infirm didn't give themselves a slack!
0:23 * induces heart attack *
Very interesting. It makes me think about the Italian custom where the Italians are said to be able to tell what sort of person you are by the shoes you wear. I have heard that it does not mean that if you were the shoes of a diva that they consider you good but if you wear well made shoes and it is evident that they are worn during you participating in hard work they consider that you have a good character. Apart from the prostitutes being in attendance the intellectual side of the Greek events is a refreshing view of their character.
I wouldn't compare a Greek Hetaira (Courtesan) to your typical prostitute but more so to a Japanese Oiran and Tayu. They were women trained and educated in the arts, philosophy, politics, maths and sciences, rhetoric and debate, as well as the sexual arts. Greek men married women out of family politics and civic duty, not out of love, while the hetairai were bred to be the lovers of the Greek elite, a woman of near equal status to them. These women were of a whole other calibre compared to any other Greek woman and most Greek women would even follow the fashion trends and the behavior of hetairai like one would a celebrity, while every Greek man would dream of having one as a lover. If you called a hetaira a porne (a prostitute and where the word pornography comes from) then you would be making a grievous mistake and would have quite a few men ready to defend her honour.
Bit of an insult referring to him as ancient. It would not surprise me if he refused to participate in any other videos.
How about drinking party like an ancient continental Celt or German?
Wow micheal has really changed his ways with a new accent and career path
Sometimes I wonder if the conclusions being made are correct. Maybe the large drinking vessel was an olive bowl or something else, and no small drinking vessel (wine cup) survived or has been found. There may have been small “disposable” plain clay small vessels that were broken intentionally or accidentally. Maybe the servants poured wine directly into the mouth. Of course someone would have written about this sort of Greek trivia. They wrote about everything. I love Greek history.
All these things - eyes on the receptacle etc - to me obviously means. "Dude handle your shit - be cool - you're not a fucking barbarian."
And goddamm I wish we had more of that attitude today - when the idea seems to be - who can more 'act the fool'; NOT handle their shit.
RETSINA? Apparently it tastes something like wine did in ancient Greek.
Clearly not
Love the hot Professor Scott portraying partying in ancient greek culture, discussing potty pottery- and those goblets are truly of a dizzying diameter- and of course, clearing up what occurred in the Symposium! There is a huge movement and focus on women not being involved, as a mature woman, I honestly would prefer to stay out of mens collective drinking, debauchery, and discussions of destruction via wars...let us not forget, in this very different time...the hubby would have to return and answer to his wife no?..discuss daily life with her when he was not at war no?..and mothers, wives sisters were lavished with gifts cloth, gold, silver and potty pottery!...i honestly believe women would prefer this than to be involved in the mechanism of running societies and planning wars!... I think women were revered as spiritual for example the great Oracle was a woman there were princesses and queens who were women there were cortisans in high places who were women and finally the city of Athens is named after the goddess Athena who conquered the land of Greece, so I don't think women were pushed out of the way as we all like to perceive, to fit todays narratives! but I think they were seen as feminine and treated by men as such. Do you all honestly believe a grecian mother seeing her son misbehave wouldnt get a clout with a broomstick? Nor dicuss psychology with her husband at home raising children?...no!...thats not life or living and Greeks lived and loved with passion. In this way i believe men and women worked together! That is my view 😊💜🙏
Women were present at the Greek symposia. They were called hetaerae, who were known for their beauty, intelligence and, yes, secrets of love-making.
Michael Scott looks a lot different these days. I remember when he did his series on the Greek theater and that seemed like it wasn't that long ago but it must have been. I saw it on RUclips so it was probably several years old at that point.
Quizzing over the shape of the wine glass, this guy has obviously never drunk Retina.
It's rough as guts and needs as much breathing as it can get just to make it palatable.
From a woman’s perspective, not so much fun to be excluded from the Greek symposiums 🤣 but love the explanation of pre-pub life as we know it. Sounds like the hangover was likely to be very similar! 🤢
Women were present at reputable Greek symposia, but not the wives. These were dancers, lute players and hetaerae, known for their beauty, intelligence and art of love making.
cillit bang! but im sure thats his brother, barry
Bang, and the dirt is gone.
Karma
This poor man will never escape his name.
He doesn't look that ancient to me.
Simple. You got to vomit every few hours all the food and wine you ate.
Highly unlikely, that was more so imperial Roman tradition
@@ViktoriousDead Nope *it is actually in fact solely not* you definitely know nothing of Ancient Greek traditions so it's most truly not "highly unlikely" but actually in fact *highly FACTUALLY* that Greeks *DEFINITELY VOMITED* during symposium especially since Romans literally copied from Greeks. You must be a lying biased Anatoloroman the known inhabitants of Greekistan now day that *larp* as "Greeks" and we **offende you* your Greeks.
*You spew so much without actually saying nothing.* Eat the potato now *that you "learned" to pull even your tongue.* I *tame* your tongue, I, *ha.*
@@ViktoriousDead Exactly, a Roman dinner party.
21:09 Nice theory but far fetched, I believe these aren't for drinking but for Incense and Embers for religious rituals. why would they bury cups of wine in their graves?
Why wouldn’t they
@@ViktoriousDead im asking you?
You can believe that but you would be very wrong. we have murals, writings and fresko from the period made by the Greeks themselves showing them using these cups exactly as described in the video. type "Simposium" into Wikipedia and you'll see several contemporary examples of them being used for drink.
One of the main offerings for the dead in Greece was unmixed wine. We even see tubes in some graves. So... have a cup to hold the offerings.
Also incense offerings were for Ouranic or heavenly gods, not underworld ones. So sorry, but no. These were not incense holders for offerings. Also their incense holders didn't look like this.
@@user-ly8mi4tm8y that do not mean anything the eyes on the cup has nothing to do with that
"That's what SHE said."--Michael Scott