What About the Last Reformation Movement? Q&A for August 15, 2019
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- In this week's Q&A episode Pastor David Guzik answers questions about the Last Reformation Movement, whether Joshua failed to appoint his successor, if there is another name for the Old Testament, what was wrong with David wanting to count the people of Israel, and many more!
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Hey David, just to qualify myself I’ve been with Calvary Chapel since 1980 and I’ve been under pastor Chuck Smith and the KWAVE family of teachers since then...yes it’s important to be under the teaching of the Word and to apologetically convince people of the Gospel but after monitoring this movement for the past 4 years I finally was convinced to attend several “kickstart” meetings. To my amazement I was given the privilege to perform healings, water baptisms, deliverance and leading people to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit! I never experienced this in all my 40 years as a Christian!
I believe many Christians today are like disciples of John the Baptist who never went on to follow Jesus. Jesus was not only evangelical but charismatic also producing signs and wonders to CONFIRM the Word. Today many evangelicals are out of balance and out of touch with the work of the Holy Spirit in making disciples like in the book of Acts!
I agree with most your commentators who are saying it’s real. It’s not only TLR but other independent movements are confirming this work as genuine from the Holy Spirit. Movements that teach and practice not only the 9 gifts but the 9 fruits as well.
1 Corinthians 3:6
I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth.
Amen
Wow powerful testimony, I thank you brother for your testimony, I am from Algiers I came to faith in Jesus Christ after a vision of the Lord Jesus Christ and he saved me from suicide he told me do not be afraid you is saved, God directed me to this movement many Christians are against me because I see things this way, but these the truth these the will of God this movement of the last reform, the problem here in Algeria I suffered persecution, pray for me so that the Lord helps me to accomplish and live these things that we must live as disciples of Jesus Christ
I have attended the TLR , and you need to know all facts, the healing is just the path, not the purpose, people are explained Gospel, after that delivered, healed. In the streets people are not soo opened for all work. But the point is to find a person of peace, who already is searching in his heart...for something. The healing is the open door, and a fast-forward teaching of who are we in Christ. The purpose is always teach redemption , get people close to God...
@George The best thing you can do is to compare his works, teachings with what Bible says, what God says, it is useless to dispute about lies spread. He did well leaving Denmark as Jesus did not spent time to explain to pharisee, he gave them a few words to make them think and leave.
Vasi On-line 1 funny you should say the best thing you can do is compare his work to the teaching of the Bible, Jesus warns us that faults teachers will arise and perform faults signs and wonders.
George If he is a Doctor then you have every right to sue him for not fully treating them but he just prayed for them and the Holy Spirit came and brought healing. We are to repent from sin and not sin anymore otherwise worst thing will come. It is not of his will if they would suffer again that is up to God.
Do all people that come to God need deliverance.
@George
I see you have no comments. I'll help you out. God bless you. Your eye are open.
Hi David, I totally agree that miracles (yes the Israelites, yes the religious leaders) can be passing and not life-changing for some, but for others, it certainly can have that effect. It is all up to the soil condition of people's hearts. For me, it totally changed me. Since a young Christian (20+ years) I have been wondering where are all the miracles that Jesus has done in the New Testament, why are we not seeing them today? Why are Christians living powerless lives much like non Christians. Until I saw a deliverance and healing in 2017 myself, then I was completely changed. And since then, my life is never the same. Indeed Jesus did say if we do not believe His words, believe Him because of the works. My life has been changed because of the miracle that I saw, and then my husband's life and this has impacted my family in a positive way as a whole. We are closer to God, we have left much of the deception the devil had us under. We also start sharing with people and bring people to come to the saving grace of God as a result of the miracle we saw and the truth we learnt. I truly believe that miracles are important. Though we should not seek after them but they should be a positive side effect of being a true believer as Mark 16 says. We are not only natural, Pastor, we are supernatural because the Holy Ghost lives in us.
TOO much religion.... and doctrines of devils and seducing spirits EXACTLY like the bible prophesized for end times!!!
Good day pastor,
I prayerfully want to take you up on your own words that you are glad to have your interpretation of TLR’s motives corrected if you are indeed misrepresenting them. Please Lord guard me against any wrong motives right now but increase my desire for edification of the body and the pursuit of truth...
I’m not affiliated with TLR except that I have been tremendously edified by their examples of going out and being the hands and feet of Jesus in a dying world.
I have viewed all of their Pioneer Taining School videos and I’m constantly being pointed back to the word to study and understand it for myself.
I have also been to a kickstart and here is where I must point out an inaccuracy: mainly your claim that thy believe that the miraculous is the means by which every single person will be radically changed and become a disciple of Jesus. No, that would be a misrepresentation. They do indeed teach a tremendous amount about discipleship. They make clear the application of the different soils, and also that during evangelistic encounters you will either sow a seed, water a seed, or reap a harvest. Why do they always pray for healings and deliverances? Because, like we read about in the life of Jesus and the life of the disciples in the book of acts, regardless of where that person is at, if they are clearly being oppressed in their body, mind, or spirit, compassion dictates that we ought not to leave them that way.
If you have the time to watch the Pioneer Training School playlist on their channel, you might find that what I am saying is true.
I pray unity would be chief above disagreements, always without ever compromising on scriptural truth. Let the Revelation of God through his word be magnified over our opinions, and I pray for the humility to accept correction where needed.
God bless you richly.
Rosanne Amen. I too have been to a kickstart and agree with what you say, that the healing is not taught as necessarily an evangelistic “tool” on the level of handing out a tract, but an overflow of my faith in Jesus and His love for a fallen world. It’s Jesus’ love for people. The Bible says that WVERYONE will have heard the Gospel when Jesus comes again - sometimes the sign/wonders are part of Jesus revealing His power in an opportunity for people to realize the through of who he is, but no one claims that it automatically/equates to salvation. Anywho, appreciate the pastor’s as well as Roseanne’s comments. Let it all be dialogue that brings us all closer to Jesus. ❤️
Rosanne Mailhiot Thank you for your comment. I have just recently come across TLR and was blown away. This is what my heart has been searching for. Been to the churches, listening still to Pastor’s online and I feel so .. let down? I long for the Disciples like Peter and Paul of old and can’t figure out where they are?. I believe with all my heart our Heavenly Father hasn’t changed, Jesus still is our Savior so, what is it? Listening to the video, he explained it. I will definitely be looking more into the other video’s and praying. Your last sentences that in going through the training, it keeps pointing you back to the Bible, gives me vigor. That’s my “truth stone”. ❤️🙏
Amen sister!
_“I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father.”_ *-John 14:12 NLT*
_“And he said to them, ‘Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.’ So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by accompanying signs.”_
*-Mark 16:15-20 ESV*
_“Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”_
*-John 14:21 NIV*
Hi, I witnessed a miraculous healing while still an unbeliever. As a result I was interested and checked it out and a few weeks later was baptised and received the gift of the Holy Spirit. That was 30+ years ago.
Did you receive the holy Spirit at home?
Yes sir, there are Whole churches adopting the biblical style tlr uses. It removes the heavy burden off of the pastors because now the average believers are walking in the power of the Holy Spirit. I’ve never seen anything more powerful it effective. We’ve nullified God’s word by our traditions, but Jesus is reforming his church, those disciples he will return for. The others will be left behind.
David, I only respond out of God's love for you. Please brother actually take the time to watch the films. I have attended two kickstarts and have never seen such a pure demonstration of the Gospel. There is no money buckets, no bragging, no titles and no manipulation. If you attend a kickstart, this is what happens, they preach the gospel, encourage repentance, admonish you to follow Jesus, explain the importance of baptism and being empowered by the Holy Spirit. I have been in church my entire life and have never seen such a pure Biblical preaching and demonstration of the Gospel. So many are coming to Christ, being delivered and filled with the Holy Spirit. As a result, you are "kickstarted" to share the gospel, baptize and minister to your own friends and family. Since we attended a kickstart, we have been baptizing people in our own backyard seeing people delivered from meth, demonic spirits, shame, guilt, etc. It is incredible. I'm still in awe. Living the Church of Acts! GOD IS AWESOME! TO HIM BE ALL THE GLORY! THANK YOU JESUS FOR REMOVING THE RELIGIOUS VEILS FROM MY EYES SO I COULD HAVE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO LIVE THIS LIFE! What an honor to serve Jesus!
This all sounds amazing, but what causes me concern is that one day people are repenting and being baptized, and the next day they're out sharing the gospel with others and doing the same thing. Again, it sounds great, but shouldn't people be somewhat grounded in Biblical knowledge before they go out explaining it to others? I saw (in The Last Reformation video) a man go out and tell some girls they should stop going to church (there was no indication that they attended a bad church that taught false doctrine). In fact, the word "doctrine" was treated almost like a bad word, and here I saw some parallels to the hypercharismatic movement: forget all that stuffy doctrine--come and "experience" what God has for you. It's not the real deal if there's no adrenaline rush. It's not "Father, Son and Holy Scriptures" (in other words, you have too much reliance/reverence for God's Word...as if it wasn't Spirit-breathed). Another red flag is when people accuse others of having a "religious spirit" because they refer to Scripture to question or correct an unbiblical teaching. It's like the escape hatch when they don't have an answer.
I love to see people zealous for Jesus and His glory. I just wonder if there is real, Biblically-grounded (beyond the book of Acts) leadership for this movement, because otherwise it's absolutely ripe for some charimatic false teacher to step in and turn it into a cult. Especially if their idea of making disciples is "just teach them this, this and this, and make sure they speak in tongues. Lather, rinse, repeat." Discipleship should involve actual Bible scholarship...all that yucky theology doctrine that seems to be disparaged, when it's just the study of God as He revealed Himself to us in Scripture, and applying what He teaches to our lives and churches.
@@kconnolly9464 This movement is Gospel based. It does focus on the Great Commission- what Jesus and Peter preached- Repent, Be baptized and Be filled with the Holy Spirit. After seeing people set free, then I got set free, it is really hard to go back and sit in a pew listening to an hour long sermon for "church." You kind of see how there is a system of playing church with no real discipleship or genuine consistent fruit. In TLR, you actually practice sharing the Gospel, starting in Genesis then ending in Revelation. It really pushes you to inhale the Word. I am reading the Word more than I have before. There are a group of us that meet for Bible study every week and it is so powerful. Many disciples do still attend their current churches. The movement is not against local churches. Torben even held a meeting in our area at a local church, but I will say it is hard to put new wine in an old wine skin. Most churches aren't welcoming or hosting any events because they feel threatened and don't want to lose congregants. Churches don't teach on casting out demons, repentance and speaking in tongues anymore. In addition, there is no money to be made here either. Everything is free. Everyone volunteers. He does not take up an offering at all. Today's church is all about money and you can't even attend a marriage conference without having to pay $50. This movement is not a cult by any means. It is not an institution. There is zero control. There is no mandations. There is no church system in the Movement. It is completely organic. There is no membership or mega church building. I know it is hard to wrap your mind around because we have been so conditioned to view church a certain way. I understand where you are coming from. I grew up in church my whole life, went to a Christian school and have been in pastoral leadership. To be honest, I was intrigued by the films and wanted to see if it was really real for myself. There happened to be a kickstart in my state. I went and saw it with my own eyes. Honestly, it is one thing to watch it on youtube and another to watch in person. I encourage you to actually go and see for yourself. Your faith will be so encouraged and your love for God and His Word will explode. You can't even compare this to anything remotely "Charismatic". There are no bands, special paid speakers, no frills, lights, money buckets or name tags. Simple normal people teaching and training others to be followers of Jesus, share the Gospel, pray for the sick, cast out demons and baptize. I am telling you - you will truly be blessed. You will meet so many wonderful people who love the Lord.
@@kconnolly9464 I've watched all three films and don't remember the sections you're sharing. Can you say which film and at what time stamp these comments are said? Yes, I agree that doctrine is important, but we have the Holy Spirit to teach us and lead us in study. I think the Pioneer School on-line classes are Bible study for the most part. I don't think the Bible places any timeline on when new believers can share their faith and experience, and in fact, new believers are much better at evangelism than us older codgers. I think of the story of Zaccheus, who was changed and shared that with all his friends at a banquet. I think of Andrew who immediately went to get his brother Peter. As with most things, the truth is in the balance of both ways of thinking, but both ways must depend on the Holy Spirit to lead and make all things work out for good in the end, if we are wanting to be made into the image of Jesus. Rom 8:38, 39
@@kconnolly9464 Samaritan Women
Yes, you said 'Show Me', David. Therefore, please find one of their kickstarts and attend it to see what they do, David. Jesus said 'Come and See' after all... Torben as you know is in prison. So please go yourself and watch firsthand how 'the Holy Spirit alone' is moving through His people at one of the kickstarts and see for yourself if they are putting on a show.
We are not in competition in bringing people to the Kingdom of God. TLR do help people bring closer to the Kingdom of God and TLR is part of the Body of Christ.
Thank u for being awake.... someone is at least..... and its not us or any reformation that brings ppl to Jesus rather than GOD Almighty himself..... trying to dis a MIGHTY move of GOD is NOT CORRECT and i think the guy should repent.... just like the religious folks who killed Jesus because THEY DID NOT RECONIZE HIM :(
All saints who presch ACTS 2:38 GOSPEL. Are considered A. JESUS. ONLY. MOVEMENT THE. JESUS. ONLY. DO. NOT USE A TRINITY BAPTISMAL. FORMILA. FOR A FULL IMMERSION BAPTISM. THEY ALSO PUT. EMPHASIS ON SPEAKING IN OTHER TONGUES WHEN FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT
We had a kickstart @ our office this weekend & saw 30-40 people set free from demons & filled with the spirit. We do street ministry & setting up home churches..
I have watched all of the TLR Pioneer Training School videos (40+ hours). I think the primary emphasis of the "last" reformation is to challenge the present institutional model of church (buildings/budgets/programs) which has been handed down through each successive reformation beginning with the start of the Catholic church. The emphasis of TLR is on transforming spectators into ministers performing their priestly roles. TLR sees many institutional churches as "orphanages" and is seeking to built this new movement on the family model (more individualized attention, and connection, for all - I feel like the Lord has been leading me in that direction before I came across TLR). The signs, I believe, are just a way to crack-open a hard heart for a moment to plant a seed. Torben of TLR would even admit that they are still learning. Having said that, I can understand why David here is skeptical given his vast experience - I probably would be too.
Amen
Bob Thrasher let the conversation engage us and let us grow
If all Christians believe in Jesus and follow what He did, there will be a revival. The best we can do is to do our part.
Miwah, yes - that's right! Get right with God ourselves, and then pray.
GOD is doing a mighty, mighty work with the TLR in bringing believers to Christ. It is a Movement in Motion that is alive and living like the Book of Acts. That is what they teach us. This is not new, just what the Word of God tells us to do. I think that many people today still confuse the bricks and mortar that makes up the church building for the living 'lively' stones within us through the Holy Spirit in the Church of Jesus Christ. Sorry pastor, I would say that your Re-action to God in Action is not unlike a lot of other comments from many I have spoken with who think it is something on par with heresy when you tell them this is what Jesus commanded us to do. Walk in Faith, with Patience and Without Fear, I Your Lord go before you. Not scriptural, but a blessing to all believers who walk with our Lord. GOD BLESS
Alex Bain Alex, thanks for watching and your comment. If I could be clear on something in regard to the Last Reformation movement, it would be this: whatever they are doing in truly bringing people to Jesus and discipling them, I am grateful for. However, I think it is important and necessary to say two things: 1. That it is easy to overestimate the power of signs or wonders to bring people to Jesus. 2. To call a movement “The Last Reformation” puts it on a level with some of the great works that God has done in the past, and at this time there is no reason to put this work on that level. There may be some good work being done, but I don’t see the evidence of it being a “Last Reformation,” transforming communities, cities, and nations the way that great works of God in the past have done.
I don’t know if you would agree with that or not, but I did want to make it clear - and I sincerely pray for God’s best upon anyone who is truly doing the work of evangelism and discipleship as Jesus commanded us to do.
@@DavidGuzikEnduringWord if u r "SINCERELY" praying for GOD's best upon anyone than MAYBE start with trying not to dis the move of GOD that is obviously with TLR
I agree ! Jesus said that signs and wonders would follow the preaching of the Gospel ! If we don't go and preach and heal the sick etc etc then the lost out there will look to the occult and pagan gods to help them! The devil is getting enough converts and we religious ones in the west need to shape up and do what they do in africa and the middle east ! So many signs and wonders are going on after the preaching of the Gospel and people are getting saved because of it !
@@A-Grammie-On-the-ROCK youre so stupid. Torben is a quack and have already kill 1
@@kennethstendahl4276 Just listen to the vile words from your mouth..and u call yourself a christian.I suggest u take a look at the fruits of the spirit again in galatians....God loves u and i love u...Please open your eyes
Hi Pastor, I don't have a question, but I love you, and I love hitting the Thumbs up button. I hope everyone else does too.
I see in The Last Reformation, a focus on repentance. You must have missed that. Jesus said go make disciples. How are you doing that?
JESUS. SAID GO YE AND. MAKE. DISCIPLES. OF. ALL. NATIONS. IN. MY. NAME. ( J E SCU S. C H R I S T. ) TEACHING. THEM. TO OBSERVED. ALL. THINGS PERTAINING. TO. THE. KINGDOM OF. GOD. MATTHEW. 28:19. 20
I hope david is going out on the streets preaching and praying for healing!
I can just feel a strong religious spirit off this guy sorry . I can't continue watching this video. But learning&teaching everyone not just the pastors to preach the complete gospel is TLR s main objectives.
I totally agree ! Didn't our Lord say to preach the Gospel and signs and wonders would follow the preaching ? It sure happens in africa and other non western places ! we are way too religious over here !
God Bless u
@Mary T I agree with you.
I agree. I sense a very strong religious spirit which comes out of a theological understanding of the bible and not a practical one.
TRL is legitimate, fully scriptural. Absolutely no correlation to Bethel, none at all. Typical analysis of theological Christians who have never experienced the power working miracles of God.
Mark 16:14-18 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 HE WHO BELIEVES AND IS BAPIZED WILL BE SAVED; BUT HE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE WILL BE CONDEMNED. 17 AND THESE SIGNS WILL FOLLOW THOSE WHO BELIeVE: IN MY NAME THEY WILL CAST OUT DEMONS; THEY WILL SPEAK WITH NEW TONGUES, 18 THEY WILL TAKE UP SERPENTS, AND IF THEY DRINK ANYTHING DEADLY, IT WILL BY NO MEANS HURT THEM; THEY WILL LAY HANDS ON THE SICK, AND THEY WILL RECOVER.”
That is what the TLR is about (minus handling snakes) the great commission. If you think you are saved and do not do anything of these things have you met the criteria above? Are you truly saved? The words of the Resurrected Jesus trumps all if there is any confusion!
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING like the doctrines of devils and seducing spirits u see in Bethel and other BIG churches..... TLR is 100% BIBLICAL!!!
TLR is a works based salvation plan. “Salvation through discipleship”. Their Cups and Cookies presentation is: check game, sin sin sin, quickly the cross, do do do, sheep and goats out of context. Torben even doesn't meet his own criteria of repentant baptism (I agree with this). He was slain in the spirit when he was told was saved. Then he later got baptized without repentance. His teaching of “what sins you want to bury” is false. We don't bury some sins, we bury all our crucified lives. He has no clue what the FATHER means, he only has God God God.
Discipleship is okay and I learnt a lot there but their gospel is not about Christ Crucified but about do do do.
His concept of gender roles is utterly nonsense, he has no clue about the role of a woman to be keepers at home, but the other way he makes them busybodies rather than quiet and meek spirited wives.
While he's right about coming out of the church system box, he himself is building his own system where he can be the mini pope. His fruits are a lot of narcissistic people who finally can live out their “Christian carriers”.
Discipleship is good, but it's different in the Bible than what you see in TLR.
You should have done your homework before you put the movement down. They do all of these things that you are questioning. You are being doubtful & slandering without knowledge of any truth. We teach what the bible teaches nothing more or less
Well u should go to a kickstart and u will see discipleship. No it's not new it's going back to the early church beginnings of what we all are supposed to be doing. I grew up in a Baptist church, in 70 years never saw one demon cast out, one healing just a continual preaching the word, no discipleship. One weekend with TLR in Vancouver and I saw more happen than 70 years of dead theology. No it's not an excitement thst says we do it better than you. They do it like the early church did. Interesting how all the critics can't point to one disciple who is bearing fruit, one healing, one demon cast out but emphasize TLR is overemphasizing healing. The healing is the door to salvation. Many are responding to the love of Christ when they see God heal them.
Yes amen, and thank you brother. And the baptisits send out thousands and thousands of missionaries to other countries, all of them who dont believe in healing, casting out demons etc I seriously think they dont even believe that the devil actually exists, they dont talk about the rapture, the great commission, just nothing. I have met many of them abroad, So my question is if these missionaries, who graduated from seminary dont believe in this, then how do they present the gospel to people of other nations? What do they teach the unbelievers? I agree= nothing but DEAD theology goes out into the world via these missionaries, who may be doing a lot of good but are not really presenting the truth of bible or the gospel in its entirety. America like many other western nations experience nothing but DEAD religion and prodiuce dead religious folks, who have carnal, secular mindsets which is why there is no spiritual connection with them.
I am part of TLR & have seen so much fruit & everything lines up with God's word.
scott jones yes! Praise God! It’s just basic disciplining! And the church of Iran as well as other churches and other countries are using the exact same method (they call it DMM)- decentralized leadership, street preaching and healing, one person to one person, and I am just believing and seeing the power of God and the word of God working together!
It sounds like you haven't read the rest of the New Testament outside the book of ACTS!
Jesus said to preach the Gospel and signs and wonders WOULD FOLLOW..I don't really understand why the "last reformation " even has to have a name..we just DO what the Lord said..go and preach the Gospel and signs and wonders would follow..why wouldn't we want to see people seeing signs and wonders and getting healed and having their loved ones raised and cast out demons..??? It's happening all over the place in third world countries..we in the west are just too relgious in my view...
I don’t think you know anything about TLR. It is about bringing people back to simple discipleship. Being active disciples and making disciples.
The lastning refrmation. Make deciples that continue to the end.
Yes, amen!
Really? I'm not part of TLR but I have seen the videos and I come away with a completely different conclusion. Yes, they do seem to utilize healing opportunities as an open door to share Jesus Christ. They explain repentance, baptism, and obedience and send people home to live it out. Are you doing this sir? When? Tell us some testimonies?
I think you are missing the whole point of TLR
TLR has impacted thousands upon thousands of lives. Mine included. Yes, they use the miraculous, as did the early disciples all through the book of Acts. They then USE those signs and wonders as a springboard into sharing the full gospel, of repentance, baptism, and filling with the Holy Spirit. The undiluted gospel is their primary message. They then go out with those born again believers, and teach them how to live a Spirit led life, producing much fruit.
Paul said in Rom 15:9, "I have FULLY preached the gospel" referring to the signs and wonders accompanying his message.
Has TLR made some cool movies? Yes. But it's not all staged carefully selective snippets Their thousands of other smaller RUclips clips, along with the sound teaching within the (completely free!) Pioneer bible school show this to be true.
Thank you though David, for the humble way in which you presented, what you believe to be true.
By the way the TLR MOVEMENT. fallows the book of acts they went from house to house door to door preaching the ACTS. 2:38 GOSPEL. Message they took the gospel to the STREETS and alleys the modern day church system loves to control there members bring in the money let the ministry minister handle it then becomes a tradition like the catholic way
Firstly, Jesus healed people because he loved them, even if He knew that they would not necessarily change and repent. Act 10v38. Secondly, do some fact checking regarding the discipleship thing before you comment. It would be wiser to say "I need to verify" and not "show me". TLR doesn't have the obligation prove anything to you and they have never claimed they are doing things better than you. If you want to see, just to there and attend their meetings; I think you should. Thirdly, you don't need experience or a confirmation to obey the word of God. Nobody cares about your "years of experience". TLR are just a bunch of people loving and obeying GOD. You should try this too. GBU.
God's goodness leads us to repentance.Sad that a believer will put down another believer for preaching the Gospel. I came to Jesus through miracles 30 years ago. Jesus is my ONLY WAY, TRUTH AND LIFE.
We are doing church too much WE are not making disciples. WE are coming in the way of God in reaching the lost.
DISAGREE with you!!! Miracles Signs & Wonders are indeed a way to bring ppl into GOD.... THIS MOVIE has nothing to do with emotions rather the POWER OF GOD!!! Maybe you need the HOLY Spirit so u can get discernment...And did they say this was the only way??? ANSWER-----NOOOOOO!!! It's also not a new way ITS RIGHT OUT OF THE BOOK OF ACTS!!!! Sorry to say but you sound very RELIGIOUS!!!
For me, it feels like you don't have a clear view on what TLR is about, and did enough research. God bless !
I was with TLR for 4 years and see that their life and doctrine are proud. Most self appointed leaders are above evaluation because they only rely on a holy spirit that doesnt match many parts of the Bible, which is our standard. My wife tried to talk with Torbin and I tried to work with a board member and they are above dissecting any of their life or doctrine. They were very quick and hot to disscest ours though! They both immediately went to telling us we were the problem and cut us off. We never got to the issues we wanted to talk about, Church leadership and in particular 1 Tim 3 qualifications.
I left TLR becuse they have no intrest in being in partnership with anyone that wants a Biblical blueprint of leadership or even reasoning with people who have been around them for a period of time. I was with them for 4 years but they immediately acted like we were evil to even ask or question their leadership.
Being saved from Mormonism in 1986, Torbin and his board Member I worked closely with are exactly the same as that spirit of Joseph Smith. "I dont have to show the Golden Plates to you, just trust me and miracles...." A casual reading of 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus shows that the real Holy Spirit makes leaders and followers love together and love the truth and hold each other accountable.
TLR is helpful, but willingly proud and will fall into similar fruit as Bill Johnson Bethel and Baptist bible worshippers who are once saved always sinning. Those who dont love the truth deserve the fruit they sow, demonic and self deception.
My favorite leaders that really are trying to have a balance of Fruit of the Spirit, HOLINESS, and gifts of the Spirit, tongues and healing for encouragement, is Zac Poonen from India. His group is about 80% focus on holiness and 20% on gifts to build the Church so he's far from perfect but 100% better and approachable than anyone I ever met in 4 years at TLR. I fellowship with some of them on zoom in Austin TX and wow do they have soild lives that match the life and doctrine of much of the Bible.
Austin CFC. David Pawson and Fabian Moreno are also ok, but they aren't willing to build a church, just speakers of good principals. Like marriage counselors who have no kids and aren't even married! Lol, or maybe cry out loud....
Anyway, cheers from Alaska.
Practicalporters RUclips channel. This is my very limited opion and welcome people to write that want to BUILD the church not just argue about it.
Best to you.
By the way did miracles draw the crouds for Jesus??Again it was part of what drew people to Him.
EXACTLY!!!!
George
Mark 16:17-18
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
George
Sending Out the Twelve
9 Then He called His twelve disciples together and gave them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases. 2 He sent them to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. 3 And He said to them, “Take nothing for the journey, neither staffs nor bag nor bread nor money; and do not have two tunics apiece.
Walter Manuofetoa you need to study your bible more. Mark 16:9-20 are not part of the original text, this was a late insertion and many bible don’t have it. Check it out for your self don’t trust me. If you read the similar passage of Matthew chapter 10 In context you’ll see that he sent his 12 disciples out not us, it even names them and he told THEM, the 12 “ do not go to the Gentiles or enter any towns of The samaritans but go rather to the lost sheep of Israel” the signs that the Disciples did was to authenticate the gospel message.
You are misunderstanding a bit. They are saying that Christianity is a people's movement and that *part of the power* of the Holy Spirit is "regular" miracles, but that with the Word and repentance and baptism in water and holy spirit experiences, and any wrongful demon-like states/literal demons cast out, if necessary, then people do change. That is the life change. Not the healings of the body. That is what they are saying is the outpouring of the spirit overall, into the world. They specifically speak of how healings of bodies do not keep a person in the life of the spirit.
Hey David, so good to find you on RUclips! I've been reading your commentaries for about 12 years (I think). If you're on the lookout for questions I have about 20! But for now may I humbly subject you to three in particular, relating to the millennial kingdom?
1. Will saints be able to have children during the millennial kingdom in contrast to other people who presumably will be able to have children?
2. Will we be young and attractive in the millennial kingdom despite our current age and appearance?
3. Are married people who are raptured still technically married since they did not die?
Nicholas, I will answer your questions in tomorrows Q&A episode wich will be online at 12PDT! The title fo tomorrows episode will be "Where is Satan right now?", and you can always watch it anytime once it's on our You Tube channel! Thanks for joining us. God bless
@@DavidGuzikEnduringWord Thanks so much! Looking forward to it.
That is not what it is, you would have to watch more and making a entire video on what you think it is is incredibly dangerous. You have a “position” where many watch you and you are held accountable for what you say because you are saying you are a leader . To make a video On What you understand instead of actually digging deep into what they are saying just disappointing . (No I am not part of the last reformation, but I do agree with what they are doing because I have allowed myself to be wrong in what I did and believed before.
Anything not from the word is not of God and TLR will be judged by the word. I have been watching them for a year now and mostly they live accordingly to the word. So TLB, you have encouraged me to live in the reality of the word, love God, love each other and make disciples who can multiply and reach the lost. In a nut shell that is the gospel...to be obedient to the call of God. Anyone opposing this is opposing Jesus and throttling the Holy Spirit.
Heaven rejoices when a soul is saved
offcourse division would arise to how TLR works about sharing Jesus but this should not divide us christians... because it is what exactly what the enemy (satan) wants for us.... leaders of every christian churches should come together to have a moment to be one in spirit and in truth...
Age agreed! The day is coming! So excited!!
Repent. Be baptized. Receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Simple
The Last Reformation is all about the gospel. It is all about Jesus. And yes, healing does happen (praise God), but it is not the main focus. It is very different to the NAR Movement. It is so sad that you took the time to make a video about something you didn't properly research. Please do more research on this topic. I think it is very important that we first try to really understand before we speak. God bless you and your ministry. 🙏
“NAR has become a tool in the hands of certain liberal opponents of the conservative [political] candidates designed to discredit them on the basis of their friendship with certain Christian leaders supposedly affiliated with the NAR.” (www.gloryofzion.org/docs/8-20-11_nar.pdf)
Most people use the term NAR in a pejorative way that is ill intended and falsely lumps in good Christians with heretical ideas.
They are a gospel plus. They believe that baptism is part of salvation. They believe baptism washes your sins. SO YES they preach a gospel but they make it a works gospel but saying you must be baptized to be saved. I had someone who follows TLR tell me that you can be saved and not have the holy spirit. which is heresy.
I THINK THIS BRO IS JUST SCARED BECAUSE TLR IS UPTO DESTROYING HIS RELIGIOUS SYSTEM AND HIS WAY OF DOING CHURCH(maybe he is scared of losing his money earning church system and job
@@VoiceOftheChurchkenya
Do you know this or are these simply accusations? Please be careful brother.
@@Natalili2 thanks much for that..
sorry pastor
if your not seeing miracles or casting out demons , u need to check your faith.
we r all called to do these things in the body.
for 30 years I believed same as u.
but the moment I believed we can do these things and stepped out to pray for the sick with God given authority, I instantly saw miracles.
it works if u get rid of all the sacred cows and disbelief in your heart.
read the bible and do the bible.
it's that easy!
watch teachings by Curry Blake to help open your eyes, it's never too late
So I guess Paul was not faithful enough to get rid of his thorn in his flesh? Curry Blake is a blowhard. Nobody can heal everybody.
I believe kickstart is needed on the streets today. To many pastors in a building.
Now everybody has an opinion to put out here. Humble yourself and stop criticizing others. Pray for others.
Sir, David Guzk this is only your openion this is not from the Holy Spirit as many theologian do please read Mathew 16: 22-23 that is many of the theologian they will interpret the word of the lord Jesus christ thruogh thier openion not from the holy spirit... Amen and Amen
Absolutely!!!
This is just another one of those "we know who to do it better/best".....it is error!
Sounds like you are panicking cuz your members might leave your church for the truth. Please study Book of Acts and ask God how we as a Christian's should live. Also read what Jesus said about new born believers in Mark 16:15-18
Please read the rest of the New Testament! Also, regarding Mark 16. Are you drinking poison or picking up serpents?
I'll add to the many comments on here which claim that this video misrepresents TLR. I am not affiliated with TLR but I know enough to know that this video does not represent their beliefs.
People are coming to faith by the preaching repentance death bargirl resurrection think the great commission people are repenting!
Look, its NOT perfect and I don't agree with everything. I wouldn't join it personally because I find it hard to see in the bible the teaching that EVERYONE has to speak in tongues. I have gone through this in the pentecostal church and I am tired of people regurgitating that false teaching. However, they are doing a lot more than most of the pew warmers in the culturally contained complacent church. No-one has perfect teaching, except of course the people sitting in churches claiming they have perfect theology but not getting off their backsides and reaching the lost. Go for it Last reformation!
Thanks again David. Praying for your ministry!
To have affirmed what you said in the video, you certainly didn't really look for what the term expresses - The last reform. The "movement" does not revolve around signs and wonders, but basically and very briefly, the proposal and understanding of those who lead this movement is to lead the Church as a whole to live what the bible actually narrates in the book of Acts. . Not just in words, but in action and obedience to Jesus. If you follow the pioneer school, the teachings... you will clearly see the message announced and the call for the Church to repent of its unbiblical doctrines, forms and practices and to return to pure and simple practice the words of Jesus, free from traditions human.
I just watched my first video for TLR last night. My spirit has been disturbed ever since. I prayed for God to give me the comment that should be made on the video to guide the people watching it. What I wrote was almost word for word what was said here. So many people are being deceived with a false salvation. So scary.
Hi Tammy, keep taking everything you see, read, and hear and comparing it to the Bible. I grew up thinking I was living biblically but then I encountered others who told me to check again, and I've had to keep checking again and making corrections in my life regularly and testing everything. Take what's right, hate what's evil, and test everything by that standard we've been given of the Bible 😃
I’ll show you read the great commission in mark 16 believe go do
and i would think if u r in ministry for 40 years plua u would have known the reason the children of isreal turned back to worship the golden calf after hearing GODS voice is because they were in COMPLETE REBELLION!!! ...not because their miraculous experience wasn't enough
Walking in surrender and obedience with God is a daily affair. It takes deliberate decision every single moment. The heart is deceitful and wicked beyond cure. Only the Lord knows our hearts, even better than we ourselves. It is important to always pray that God exposes our heart condition to ourselves so that we can work on those things which we have to surrender to Him. And help us to know Him as how He wants us to know Him.
““Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’”
Matthew 7:21-23
And if your comments are correct regarding the TLR and miraculous not being “effective”, then do you also feel Jesus was wasting time on the miraculous since the numbers converted didn’t meet your expectations???
That's not what the last reformation is about.
Mark 16:15-20
You need to watch the pioneer school! Please brother watch it! Just the first episode!
Re your comments on the TLR ministry: in your first few minutes you say they’re all about the miraculous ushering in a last reformation. Sadly I believe you’ve missed the point. They are interested in returning to the church in the book of Acts which was outside the four walls of the current church building and seeing people saved, baptized, set free, healed and discipled. I believe that all lines up with the Word of God. So there should not be an us vs them view of TLR. I do want to say that I appreciate your Bible teaching and am currently finishing up your 1 & 2 Peter study. Blessings
Like someone wiser than me said: Sir, with all due respect, there are unfortunately not enough arguments in your video. His comments on Torben are taken out of context and not covered in their entirety. _ ^For the people out there reading, this is only his very personal interpretation of him and this despite the many verses cited, however, without a concrete development.
And now I'm telling you David Guzik to stop worrying about these men and let them go. If this company or this work comes from men, it will be destroyed; but if it comes from God, you cannot destroy it. Don't run the risk of having fought against God ”(Acts 5: 38-39). Sincerely
What if a miracle won't happen? Those people will not accept Jesus then. What if the initial miracle is the only one they experienced? Disappointment and resentments will come.
Wow! For someone who is supposed to be critically analyzing something for the purpose of teaching others, you really have missed the mark. I am not endorsing TLR but this is the summary, they are promoting Repent, believe, be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, receive the Holy Spirit that you might be endowed with power to resist the devil and lead a life overcoming sin. Holiness is their main thing. They preach being baptized in water With signs following, specifically speaking in tongues and or prophesying, is a necessary means to receive the Holy Spirit in a way which allows a life to be separate from the world, dead to sin and alive to God. They do believe in the supernatural that, as Jesus said, those that believe will cast out demons and lay hands on the sick that they may recover but it’s not the primary focus. My concern with TLR is that They place heavy emphasis on Speaking in tongues which can create a religious idol. That’s Not to say that I challenge the gifts of the Holy Spirit but they want everyone to speak in tongues, or pretty much live questioning their salvation. I have met some of these brothers and sisters in the faith and they are certainly on fire for God. They are sold out to follow the Holy Spirit in ways that most contemporary American Christians would never think of.
You haven't understood the message they are proclaiming, you should engage with and understand their position before passing judgment, and experience is a faulty tool, the word of God is the standard!
Why the splitting of hairs here. They are healing people in Jesus's name. It is not to convert them to Miracles but a sign that they have power given to them from Jesus to perform those Miracles that as Jesus stated with the pharisees around as he was healing "whether it is easier to say thy sins be forgiven you or to say arise and walk that you may know that the Son of Adam has the power to forgive sins". So the Miracles are only the evidence of the greater Miracles which is being freed from our sins and walking in the newness of His spirit. Since Jesus is not here he sent His holy spirit to witness that through Christ we can be heirs of Elohims kingdom. I am interested in the TLR movement as I feel I have been called to be set free and help others be set free as well. Speaking in tongues is one of the fruits of that spirit and I don't see them preaching by it just speaking to God as they do it.
You've totaly missed the point David. Seriously. The way you describe this movements tells me that you don't know anything about it. What a shame
Not too smart to speak against the things God decided to do in His own will and were recorded for a purpose (i.e. His miracles). And it wasn't too sway us from it either whether it had lasting impact or not. (You actually spoke against the Lord's ministry of miracles...wow!)
Doing what Jesus said isn't the same as "just" learning what He said. He always challenge His disciples and the crowds that gathered around Him with having faith and growing in faith to believe Him and the Kingdom of God to the point that it impacted reality. This was represented over and over in the Gospels records and in the book of Acts.
Of course, repentance and the remission of sins (baptism), becoming born again, walking with Jesus in righteousness, and becoming a disciple who is led by His Spirit to do all His will was key to the purpose of why He came...but also the miracles by Him and His 12 disciples and other normal disciples like Philip (Of the seven who were food servers), Ananias (who healed Paul and laid hands on him to recieve the Holy Spirit) the signs that followed them were apart of their ministry of the Gospel as well.
Mark 16:17-18
“And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
“theyfn will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
What signs follow you?
Do not like this video
i said it before, we need to get back to the book of romans
TlR is pure blasphemous.
You know the problem I see what a lot of what was said… I kept herring we this or I that. Instead of he did this or he did that. It does not matter what I do or what we have done the only thing that matters is what he did what he is doing and what he (Jesus Christ) is gonna do. It is not us or I who does good things but it is he that does it through me… another thing is we don’t train up new leader it is not we who leaves a legacy… the only legacy that is left is that of Jesus Christ. The only one who appoints new leaders is Yeshua! Forgive me if I’m wrong but I didnt hear anything in this video about self denial.
The disciples had to wait to receive Power and the Holy Spirit came upon them to be witnesses, not just about Jesus but to live a kingdom life.
I agree that Paul made disciples and spent time setting the foundations for correct doctrines but the last reformation is more than miricles its about surrender and being empowered to live the life Jesus has given as a new creation in obedience to the Holy Spirit.
In order for the church to be effectve there must be a balance of the word and obedience to all of the word.
The tongues speaking movement is false, it already existed in early America as the shakers movement, the church was more United then and denounced them, we just forgot history again, nowhere in scripture is there anything about a private language, you are reading that into scripture from your traditions. Tongues were audible foreign tongues. Not gibberish, I had a cousin who is still unsaved, he was interested in Jesus and went to a tongues speaking church, and he's never went back to a church again, because he thought it was nuts, and it is.
In all love, this is absolutely wrong. The Last Reformation means no more Reformation of the church. Since the early church that we read about in the book of Acts, many have tried to reform and create theologies outside of the Word. This movement is all about going back to the Word...going back to the book of Acts and living the life Jesus called us to! It is about the power of the gospel and the life of discipleship Jesus called us to! I have met many people from all over the world who are joining together in this movement to obey Jesus. It is powerful when we obey Him, and I have been forever transformed by the fruit of Torben and other disciples of Jesus who have gone before many living this life obedient to Christ! I have been to the kickstarts and seen life after life transformed by the gospel and living this life. The fruit is great! I will never be the same! We are still seeing lives transformed to this day all by the leading of the Holy Spirit! Glory be to God!!!! Thank you, Jesus!
Winsom, Amen and now the whole organized church is getting shut down. Remember what happened in Chin when Mao came in. Looks like that’s happening here, then arises the true church out of the ashes. O how I pray. What a long haul g4owing up in a dead religion and part of but but not knowing what to do about it. Thank God He does
What if you experience God incredible power and intimacy and love being delivered from demon possession and many other powerful moves from the holy spirit and still believe after 20 years. I absolutely don't believe in censsassiolist.
They're not doing it 'a new way'...they're doing it the biblical way. The gospel was always preached with signs and wonders. 'for the kingdom of God is not in word but in power'
The way you say it is like all the apostles and even Jesus failed to get the results that you could with their unafective miracles. If only you had been there to show them how to preach the kingdom. The last reformation definitely has God's blessings or He would not be healing through it. You want proof...think they demanded that of Jesus too. Judge by fruit...hundreds of people with the right gospel attested by signs and wonders....are you suggesting that formula is not good enough for you? Am I wrong in thinking that's the biblical formula? Is that not fruit?
I don't believe that you would accept even the evidence that you ask for. There are thousands of people who's lives have been changed. Dozens get saved, baptized in water and the Holy Spirit at every event, and most continue in that new life. You haven't seen because you haven't looked. And I wonder if you don't want to see it because it would break your theology.
Here's how Torben broke a part of my theology:
For forty years, I believed that water baptism was a good idea but unnecessary for a born again believer. I was baptized two years after being "born again". When Torben said to take off my religious sunglasses and read the bible, I found very little support for that belief. My theology was broken and I changed. Baptism is not a work. It does nothing on its own. When preceded by repentance and faith, it is being born again. That's what the bible teaches. My baptism was preceded by repentance and faith, which makes it genuine.
In many of the comments I read the claim that TLR is preaching the true gospel. I doubt most even know what the true gospel is. TLR's gospel is baptism and tongues. The baptisms are almost violent. I know of one young man that was upset how after he was baptized they pressured, forced him to speak gibberish. I met a TLR leader who, like Torben said the water's of baptism washes away sin. The water makes one born again. You will see that in their videos. That is a false gospel. It is the blood (death) that justifies not a work of baptism.
Why argue and find fault that's not there, just go out and do What Jesus told us to do...are you doing that
???????
I have lived for iver 40 years in THE WAY.. it has never failed me yet.. obviously you haven't experienced this. You are wrong...
We can agree to disagree...may we all follow closely after Jesus and His word. Blessings!
Chuck Smith frowned on signs and wonders too. That's why he and John Wimber split.
TLR guys are feeling uneasy I guess
Well said!
Go to the classes learn how to evangelize yourself on the streets go to them if they don’t come to you you can learn to street preach too
And signs and wonders will follow Jesus said ! The lost youth are going to the occult because there they find signs and wonders galore...from the evil one ! How much more should we believers who follow the One True God of all power have MORE miracles and real ones !?! The devil gets the glory if we don't go and preach and raise the dead !
John 6:47
Ignorant and ill-informed commentary on TLR.
A you are a pastor, I can only hope you approach the bible with a lot more integrity than you have with TLR.