Trope Talk: Doomed Heroes
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- Some heroes are destined for a happily ever after. Let's talk about everybody else.
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"This story does not have a happy ending. It does not have a happy beginning. And there are precious few happy things in the middle" -The first page of A Series of Unfortunate Events.
I love those books, and the prequels (the wrong questions) Lemony Snicket is so good
The problem with those books is not that they’re sad but that they’re pointless and revel in misery, sound and fury significant of nothing.
@@brienneoftarth7717 Something tells me people like it for more then just a twist or its ending lol
@@brienneoftarth7717 That’s the point of the books. Personally, I loved the pointless suffering. It isn’t THE problem, it’s YOUR problem.
@@CadanL I didn't read the books much, but the TV show has convinced me I should, as well as the Lemony Snicket prequels. I just wished they used the correct pluralization of Octopus.
The doomed protagonist is common. But what changes them into a doomed HERO is when they say, "I can't change my story. I've seen the ending. But I can change yours."
Londo Mollari? Londo Mollari.
“Trying to predict all future stuff to protect yourself from it, is an anxiety disorder.”
I felt that
Yeah that line hit me like a train
same
Yup
Yeah, that was a great line.
"We can always choose to be kind, and that will always matter."
Without question one of Red's best quotes period.
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“everything everywhere all at once”
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i agree :)
Aye, well phrased Red. Well phrased.
I just commented to say, "Hello fellow Phantom!"
@@Phantom86d *Fingerguns* ayyyyyy
Tangled is a surprisingly sincere "story of how i died" story with a kid friendly twist. Who'd have thought
I think it works for a few reasons.
1. It is a Disney family feature. There is a low expectation they will commit to killing a non-villain.
2. His entire personality for a large part of the film is being a larger than life, mischievous, habitual liar. By the time his full personality and character growth comes in you probably forgot that line.
3. He did die. He chose self-sacrifice without any expectations of surviving or coming back. She thought she lost the one thing that could save him. The emotions they both felt were authentic and probably will have long-term effects on them.
4. After everything both characters have been through in life, they deserve to be happy with the person that helped them through the struggle.
@@sarahtaylor4264 addendum to point one "killing a non-villain, or non-parent". Because we all know Disney goes through parents like toilet paper
@@sarahtaylor4264 also and this is an unsubtle excuse to recommend the Tangled TV show, Rapunzel's and Eugene's relationship is a good and lasting one, and even when they do go through hardship, personal or otherwise, they're there for each other, and its meaningful because as you said; the actual death, loss, and grief they felt was real, brief, but real.
And Rango literally just explicitly wussed out on it, which was hilarious.
I think Tangled is a bad example of this trope tbh cause there's not really any good reason for Eugene to tell us what's gonna happen via narration, and I think most people gloss over it and forget about it pretty much immediately. This trope exists to build up anticipation throughout a film, that by telling us how the story will end we will focus more on how they're gonna get there rather than the destination, but Tangled doesn't really do that and the viewing experience would be largely the same if you'd cut the narration in the beginning. Still a solid movie but not a good use of the trope.
Hadestown did this *SO* brilliantly. The musical basically tells us on the first song, "This is the story of Orpheus and Eurydice, it's gonna end how it always ends, but that doesn't matter, we're gonna tell it again." And, the first time I listened to the musical, by the time "doubt comes in" starts playing I was hoping beyond hope that the story would be different this time, even if they told me it wouldn't. It hurt my heart when the inevitable happened.
sameee
I saw a performance of Hadestown with someone who wasn’t familiar with the original myth, and he was so shocked by the ending lmao
This is something that I always find interesting about re-reading very well-written stories. Even though you always remember what happened in the narrative last time (unless you have a really buggy memory like me!), there's still great satisfaction in revisiting the journey, admiring the cleverness of the author, and sometimes even picking up on Easter eggs & clever things that you missed in the other read-throughs?
In this way, could we say that any sufficiently well-written narrative partakes of some of the elements of a "doomed hero" story, purely due to rewatch/re-read value...? 🤔
@@kumatorahaltmanndreemurr same lol
Sounds a little bit like reading John Gardner's "Grendel" if you're already familiar with "Beowulf".
Greek Heroes: Hubris is such a swell quality, nothing will ever go wrong!!!!
*Hey, kid, you like proving yourself?*
The hubris of a Greek hero is such that he never believes he suffers from it.
Oedipus: I'm going to find the source of this plague and give him what he deserves like the good king I am!
*later*
Oedipus: By Zeus this can't be happening.
@@merrittanimation7721 I DID WHAT?!?!?!?
@@TJDious it’s what makes their stories so relatable imo, pride before the fall vibe
Red really pulled a certified "therapy session Speedrun any% in between a tropetalk" moment
Red is getting very good at that
This honestly helped me with some things I've been going through, so I wholeheartedly agree with this therapy.
Oh thank goodness I thought it was only me.
The ending was definitely uplifting, but just seeing clips from “Madoka Magica” and “Grave of the Fireflies” has left me depressed…
Matthew Stover summed it up perfectly imo in his first lines of the Revenge of the Sith novelisation: "This story happened a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. It is already over. Nothing can be done to change it. [...] It is the story of the end of an age. A strange thing about stories- Though all this happened so long ago and so far away that words cannot describe the time or the distance, it is also happening right now. Right here. It is happening as you read these words. [...] The end starts now."
Oh, man, yeah. Stover's adaptation of Revenge of the Sith is probably my favorite piece of Star Wars media, ever, because it manages to capture the true spirit. The idea that the events in the story are tragic. Though, my favorite line;
"The dark is generous, and it is patient, and it always wins - but in the heart of its strength lies weakness: one long candle enough to hold it back. Love is more than a candle. Love can ignite the stars." Because, as deep and as dark as the tragedy is, we know it is not without hope.
That just sounds dumb.
Yes, that books is so good. Probably my favourite Star Wars book
That book is simply amazing.
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Ya know I’ve always thought of Link as a great example of a doomed hero. While he doesn’t die in the end, his fate *is* sealed. He’s always going to be the Triforce of courage. He’s always going to have to face Ganon. The fate of Hyrule or wherever he is will always rest on his shoulders. His life will always be to fulfill his role as the Triforce of courage, endlessly repeating. But Link still faces it, he still charges forward no matter what because he knows he’s the only one who can. There’s such an undercurrent of tragedy and sadness is every Zelda game because of that fixed fate, but there’s also so much beauty because of the hero that Link is. He’s able to connect to all corners of Hyrule, to all the people and the earth. There is such a profound sadness because Link is forever bound to his fate, but he’s also so heroic that the beauty of it all outshines the darkness. Ya know????
There's an aspect of the fan comic *A Tale of Two Rulers* which dwells on this; Link's memories keep returning to each successive generation of heroes, and everything he's seen in every lifetime scar his reincarnations into muteness. Link's current incarnation in the comic is being watched by several people who don't want them to awaken simply because the innocent, playful child will one more become the silent protagonist, and it terrifies them.
Link is still very young by the end of the games though, and given that calamity only strikes once or twice a generation he doesn't really have his whole life written. There's the theory of the skeleton guy in Twilight's Princess being Ocarina of Time's Link, having lived a full life after his adventures are over, but leaving behind his spirit to pass on his knowledge to the next one. I'd like to think all the Links get to live a full life after the credits roll, so their destiny is more of a fixed first adventure stopping Ganon, rather than being bound to live their whole life as the hero of hyrule because fate said so.
@@arturomacor3615 I'm pretty sure it's confirmed that the ancient hero is the hero of time
@@arturomacor3615 Nah, the theory goes that the Hero of Time became a Stalfos because he died prematurely in a forest, with the acceptance of his death taking form as Majora's Mask
Well damn, that's actually kinda beautifully heartbreaking...
I was always sad to finish a Legend of Zelda game as a kid-maybe part of me knew that the only freedom Link ever got was while the adventure was still ongoing? (Probably not, I was probably sad that my fun game was "done," and there was not much "new" from it anymore. I hadn't yet figured out the joys of replaying.)
"It didn't take long for Reach to fall; our enemy was ruthless, efficient. But they weren't nearly fast enough, for you had already passed the torch, and because of you we found Halo, unlocked its secrets, shattered our enemies' resolve. Our victory - your victory - was so close. I wish you could have lived to see it.
"But you belong to Reach. Your body, your armour, all burned and turned to glass. Everything. Except your courage. That, you gave to us, and with it we can rebuild."
Church/Epsilons Last Words - Red vs Blue:
"Hey guys... if you're hearing this then it means you did it. You won. You kicked the shit out of Hargrove's forces. I knew you could. But this is my last stop. See, when I came into this world, I was really just a collection of somebody else's memories."
"But with your help, these memories... they-they took form! They became my voice, my personality. And, after a while, I... I began to make brand new memories of my own. All of these things are what make me who I am... but they're also holding me back. I can't run this suit as Epsilon, but if I erase my memories, if I... deconstruct myself, the fragments I'll leave behind will have the strength to get you through this. I believe that.
"I wish that there was another way. But I'm leaving this message, as well as others, in the hopes that you'll understand why I have to go this time...hehe, it was actually Doyle who made me realize something that I've never thought of before. There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after.
"But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith."
(Cut to black. The sound of shattering glass is heard as Epsilon fragments himself.)
"Ain't that a bitch."
Ironically enough, they said this as much in Reach's only trailer- 'From the Beginning, you Know the End'
@@TheDirvishsuch a fantastic speech
I hate to think about it, but Grave of the Fireflies is easily the best "How I Died" story I've ever had the extreme displeasure of witnessing. It's an utterly beautiful masterpiece. I wept.
😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
The actual story is even more gut wrenching.
It's soul crushing
I'm still mad 10+ years later that my friend didn't warn me after recommending it 😫
If I ever get around to watching all of the Ghibli movies, I’m skipping Grave of the Fireflies. Just reading the wikipedia summary put a MASSIVE downer on my whole day.
"This taps into an unfortunate truth of being alive, which is that we can't predict when bad things are going to happen to us. Trying to predict all future bad stuff to protect yourself from it is an anxiety disorder." Quote of the day.
"We can always choose to be kind, and that will always matter."
Especially because of the list of pure existential dread sources of damger is so long and unstoppable, just from space alone you have asteroids & impactors, alien invasion, gamma ray bursts, rouge black holes, and zero state decay, several of which travel at the speed of light and 1 second its a beautiful day and the next earth as a planet is either sterilized or deleted from existence because the laws of physics rewrote themselves. Fortunately all of this stuff has astronomically low odds of actually happening so its more of just anxiety fuel than genuine issues to keep yourself up at night. (The risk of being in a car accident should scare you way more than the risk of an alien invasion)
Yup It takes one to know one
@@GromMolotok this is a quote, the sentence OP gave isn't one. It's just saying a fact.
Red's voice softening a bit after saying "we can always choose to be kind, and it will always matter" got to me, theres a genuine beauty in the fact that good can always have an impact, even if it seems hopeless.
Deltarune. Oh, and I also agree.
❤
agreed
This 💯
That violently reminded me of Everything Everywhere All At Once, and I start sobbing again.
The "this is the story of how I died trope" being subverted so often really makes it its own trope. My immediate thought when this was brought up was the movie Megamind, and they did it pretty well.
Tangled did the same thing
@@matityaloran9157I haven’t see that film, is it good?
@@gameover9390 It is
My favorite of these was Fallen, largely because it has a messed up twist...
It opens up with Denzel Washington's (I think) voice saying this is the story of the time he "almost died". We then have a long mystery that drifts into the occult as the detective played by Washington gradually realizes that the various murders happening around him are the work of a demon, one that is able to possess people just by having its present host touch the new host. Washington's character is too strong to possess through touch, so it taunts him instead, and gradually reveals more about itself. It eventually becomes clear that the only way the demon can possess him is if its existing host dies: a demon can only survive for a few seconds outside a host, but the danger increases its ability to enter anyone nearby. If it's alone with Washington, and can immobilize him so he can't get away, it may be able to kill its host and jump into him. Washington finally lets it get him alone, fatally shoots its host, then sits there watching the host die while smoking cigarettes laced with a deadly poison that will take at most another minute or so. Host dies, demon possesses Washington, desperately tries to dash out and at least get far enough out that it can find someone or something else to possess. The story ends drifting up from Washington's body, with the narration talking of how he'd finally been defeated, outsmarted by a mere mortal... ohh, you forgot something didn't you. As a cat arrogantly walks out from behind the cabin, the demon reminds the audience that he said he was going to tell them about the time he *almost* died.
Quite a unique spin, starting out looking like a deliberate subversion, letting the very memory of the opening fade, then bringing it back only to reveal that the one that's not-quite-doomed is the villain, not the hero.
@@broEye1 That's pretty damn good
I recently reread the Tumblr short story about a daycare worker at the end of the world, and this is exactly why it still makes me tear up at the end.
Do you mean “The Last Story Time” or are you talking about something different?
the one where they took care of kids because their parents arent coming from them while the world is ending and some super heros are trying to stop it?
The one I mean is by "bixbythemartian" and will show up if you Google it.
That one is a golden example of the Apocalypse Log
Makes me think of Ice King in Adventure Time
"My candle burns at both ends; it will not last the night; but ah, my foes, and oh, my friends - it gives a lovely light!" - Edna St. Vincent Millay
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God do I love metaphors about burning a candle at both ends.
I think the best/worst part about the case of Halo Reach is the objective of the last mission: "Survive".
It's implicitely telling you that you can't win, you can only try to last as long as possible and take as many covenant with you as you can.
It's an amazing end to the game both narratively and as a test of the skills you've accumulated throughout the game.
You knew it was comming and inevitable but with this title the game is telling you: "This is the moment it all falls, show us how it ends".
Perfect.
"try to predict all future bad stuff to protect yourself from it is an anxiety disordder" that's a great line
So the best manipulators have disorders? So be it. As one once sayed there is no female Mozart because there is no female Jack the ripper (men varrie more and if the difference will be good or bad is random).
@@gunarsmiezis9321 what?
@@sevencats4964 Being unusual can be for good or bad.
The unfortunate thing about that is that "try to predict future stuff" - with significant emphasis on the bad stuff because getting eaten is more bad than getting surprise cake/date/promotion is good - seems to literally be the primary function of our brains; and the more interesting, human bits of it, while able to solve more interesting problems than animals can, are also great at imagining increasingly comprehensive, complex, and _unlikely_ possibilities for things to possibly go wrong.
Basically, it's almost a miracle humans don't ALL run around panicking with the biggest and most general of generalized anxiety disorders at all times.
@@gunarsmiezis9321 yes. And frequently they're caused by early childhood trauma. Predicting the future turns to controlling the future to stay safe. It is commonly a pathology.
I think Hector from Pixar's Coco is written almost like a doomed hero. He sacrifices his chance of seeing his daughter in the afterlife to save Miguel. He willingly lets himself be forgotten not knowing that Coco had his photo all along. This makes his sacrifice genuine and wholesome and it makes my eyes cry.
15:21 "Trying to predict all future bad stuff to protect yourself from it is an anxiety disorder." You didn't need to personally attack me so casually like that, Red.
I got diagnosed with Anxiety quite recently, which I genuinely didn't think I had, but this is the first thing I've seen which made me realize "oh shit I actually do have it bad", because I literally do that all the time. I'll lock my car and test the door almost every time - if I forget (or can't actively remember testing it), I'll walk back to my car to make sure I locked it. I've never forgotten to lock it, you would think that I did once and now I'm paranoid because I've experienced getting my car stolen, but I haven't - it's just one of a myriad of things that I'm conscious *could* happen.
Everyone gets anxious about things, you're just weaker than most. Hope that helps you in the long run.
@@thezerowulf2046 *says your disorder is a weakness of character, refuses to elaborate, "hope that helps," leaves.
Same haha I got straight up called out. No wonder I love this trope so much
now I really want to read a fic where batman is punished with living in a world where nothing needs protection
My doomed hero guilty pleasure is “the lovable character who isn’t the protagonist turns out to have an illness.” These stories always make it obvious that the character is probably going to die, but the best ones make that character so lovable and endearing that you don’t want them to die. Just like the protagonist, you ignore the warning signs and delude yourself because you desperately want them to survive, so when the tragedy strikes it feels so real.
Ah yes, the incurable cough of impending death.
Spoilers for obvious reasons:
Somehow, both Red Dead Redemption games do this with both protagonists. The first game is not a sickness but confronting an ambush that you know you're not gonna survive. The second game is a sickness and is directly brought up because of his own heinous actions, but it DOES kickstart a journey of self-reflection and improvment. He knows he's not gonna live, but he can use any strength left to give others a second chance in life. Wether that be cancelling debts, helping a member leave the gang safely or helping the family of someone that he threatend.
I liked the spin Doki Doki Literature Club had on that. Spoilers ahead.
It’s not that Sayori had an uncurable illness, but when she talked about her depression in a game that was 100% cutesy dating simulator up to that point that made all the alarm bells ring in the players heads. And yet it wasn’t certain whether she was doomed or not, which left enough room for the massive development a couple of in-game days later.
One of Rick Riordan’s characters had that. I won’t spoil it but yea Rick Riordan’s a great writer.
Sounds like a Tiny Tim type character.
"Goodness is not goodness that seeks advantage. Good is good in the final hour, in the deepest pit. Without hope, without witness, without reward."
"Character is what you are in the dark."
This is part of why I love the musical Hadestown, it’s the story of Orpheus and Eurydice and the first song repeats over and over “it’s a sad song, it’s a tragedy” with the most upbeat melody you’ve ever heard, so you know how it’s going to end and throughout you get little hints about how their beautiful relationship falls apart, and then they do, but they come back together and it seems like everything is going to work out, all Orpheus needs to do is walk forward and not look back. And then he looks back. And the first song starts again but it’s slow and so tragic but he told you this is how it ends and we still chose to watch it, so you can’t quite bring yourself to cry. But it picks back up again saying the virtue of the story is not the happy ending, but in the journey of hoping it will work out somehow
So yeah go listen to hadestown, you can get the entire story in the songs and every song is a banger
Hadestown explained so well what I’d been trying to articulate to my friends about why stories like Orpheus and Eurydice are timeless in their tragedy. Like you said, we KNOW how the story ends. We know why Orpheus will lose Eurydice. But we keep listening again and again, almost hoping that it won’t end tragically. It’s sort of a “maybe, maybe this time it will end alright” even though deep down we know it never will.
THIS! I loved Hadestown so much, its such a beautiful musical
"Eurydice," not Euripides 😉
And yeah, Hadestown is the absolute BEST! My husband took me to go see it in person last month for my birthday. 😄 Even knowing all the music and knowing to expect something amazing it STILL manages to exceed expectations when you see it live, it is something special.
Yes! I was thinking about Hadestown throughout this whole video and even from the moment I saw the video pop up on my feed.
‘Cause here’s the thing
To know how it ends
And still begin to sing it again
As if it might turn out this time
I learned that from a friend of mine’
And the repeated ‘we’re gonna sing it again’
God i live this musical. We dont watch it or listen to it because we think they might get a happy ending, but because in the process so many things change and we can learn so much from them. Some people say that at the end everything’s fucked and nothing’s better than before, but i think thats dumb. At least one thing changed, now there’s hope. Now there’s the idea of change. They no longer sit by and let life go, now they can change life for themselves. The workers can revolt. Persephone can fix her marriage. Hades can be a better king. Orpheus failed to save his love, but he succeeded in inspiring the people of the underground.
“While we spend most of our lives caring for ourselves and driving our own narratives, at the end of the day, no matter what the night holds and what secret tragedies might be lurking for us, we can always choose to be kind, and that will always matter.”
I honestly love this quote because being kind can show a lot about a person. It is very easy to be mean, especially in this day and age, so choosing to be kind when sometimes this world can show a lack of kindness can mean a lot.
Kindness really is king.
I choose violence
@@grantdotjpg -- You can always choose to be violent, and it will always matter.
@zachattack1021 Sometimes I wonder what the difference between the two is.
The Magnus Archives is basically Jon frantically attempting to get through the apocalypse log but ends up causing his own apocalypse.
i never thought of it like that. that's amazing.
I love the brief reference to exandria unlimited calamity! The way brenan told that doomed story was WILD!
Calamity was INCREDIBLE. I think it's the absolute peak of using RPGs to tell a cinematic story.
Her inclusion of that in this video makes me even more excited to watch the campaign! I saw a clip of the campaign the other week and knew instantly that it was going to be the next one that I listened to
Literally finally got around to finishing it last night, it's kind of surreal that it's being referenced right now
@@JiroTheFro You're in for a treat. I really like Critical Role in general, but the combination of Brennan as DM with this cast and the doomed, extremely high-stakes setting makes it 100% my favorite thing they've ever done. Matt might be a master of worldbuilding and storytelling but the intensity that Brennan can reach is just breathtaking.
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On surprising victories: in a writing for kids and young adults class, my lecturer taught us that middle grade fiction doesn't have to have a happy ending, but it does need to leave the reader with hope. Your characters can stare into the abyss and the abyss can stare back, as long as their friends are behind them, or they come to terms with something, or *anything else* in the story for the kid to think "yes things can be sad, but also... happy?"
Love this take. Some of my favorite media ends sadly but with people accepting their situation and choosing to continue on. Bittersweet is such a nice flavor.
@@mirandaa1464
Yep, makes for quite an interesting story
Yeah I dislike completely bad endings. It just makes me feel sad.
“Unless…”
@pyropulse hahaha, sounds like we could use your strong opinions in the class!
One really good example of an apocalypse log that I don’t hear people talk about very much outside the fandom is SCP-5000. In the universe of the SCP Foundation, this entry fits perfectly into the niche of what an apocalypse log is supposed to accomplish. I highly reccommend that you go read it if you haven’t already, and if you’re unfamiliar with SCP lore, read some of the wiki’s introductory posts for some background info.
Scp logs are so interesting
Hazzzah! A person of quality!
Dude thanks for the recommendation this is one of the best scps
Fun fact: I get more anxiety watching comedies (from second hand embarrassment) than I do from Doomed Hero stories…. I need a therapist to unpack all that…
Embarrassment is something we've all experienced directly. Being doomed is a bit more abstract for most of us. I'm guessing that has something to do with it.
Also, anxiety is (at least for me) mostly about the unexpected. If the the hero is doomed, that takes all the uncertainty out of it.
Comedies relying on embarassment too much are the worst. It's rarely funny, and uncomfortable to anxiety-inducing for a lot of people.
I don't think I've ever met a person I liked who found that kind of second-hand embarassment inducing scene particularly funny.
But yeah, that's not unusual. As Victoria says - anxiety generally comes from not knowing what will happen. So you're not really gonna feel anxious about the doom, only maybe about the way there, but that's not unique to doomed hero stories.
My parents like to listen to audiobooks when they sleep. It's pretty much always a murder mystery. One time I was sharing a hotel room with them and noticed that they also had Emma by Jane austen on their mp3 player. It turns out that my mum can't listen to Emma cause it gives her too much anxiety. Murderer on the loose? A-ok. Mr Elton not being in love with Harriet? Too much intrigue for my mum
You see the problem is that embarrassment comedies are, what's the word, Bad. And doomed hero stories are in a way the least anxious stories, because you already know the worst thing. It's locked in. Nothing left to worry about.
Me, too goddamnit. I was way more stressed watching Parks and Rec than fucking Breaking Bad.
I love your Trope Talks because you don't just give a definition and some examples. You talk about all aspects of the trope. It's positives and negatives, how it can be subverted for a good effect, how the trope interacts with the writer and "audience" members. It is some much more in depth to why the trope matters, at at least why it is often used. You even usually try to give a little moral encouragement or emotional support if you can. Thank you for making more than just "content". Thank you for making something beautiful.
I just wish those examples drew from more popular media sources because she really watches some obscure stuff while I'm screaming one in my head.
@@missously2088 --But she literally used Star Wars--
@@missously2088 "obscure" 🤣
@@carloscastellanosdarkeyesi6126 And what does Darth Vader wears? Obscure clothes!
@@missously2088 I kinda like it though. She doesn't talk about the already obvious examples and even goes for some more underrated stories where they execute a trope well. Of course, she still references other popular shows especially if it is a good example Star Wars or ATLA is just a few examples (and the only ones I can remember heh...)
You know, one of my favorite stories is actually TWO of the "doomed hero" types at once, and it came from an unexpected place: Halo Reach.
It's a prequel, and lore-savvy nerds know Reach falls. In addition, if memory serves, the game is pretty upfront about the fact that your character's going to die, too. The story then tells, in parallel, the story of a world struggling against overwhelming force, and your team, who each fight as hard as they're able to try and save as many as they can. The resolution ends where you knew it would - the heroes and the world they're on both die. But, we get our resolution as our character manages to secure the information that we know leads to the rest of the series - the "prequel" facet of the story both secures its doom and ensures that the player knows that their character's heroic sacrifice will win the war, eventually.
Oh yeah. The first scene is of a green field with your character's helmet half buried. Very up-front about the direction of the story, but it also shows that life returned to Reach.
Also, I just love the last level, where all you have left to do is take as many as you can with you. I remember there being no music at all, just the sounds of battle. It's been awhile, so I don't remember how accurate that is, but it's a testament to that scene's tone that that's how I remember it.
I still remember crying at Jorge's sacrifice. He was just so fun.
You don’t even need to be that lore savvy. Pretty sure the opening crawl, or at least the manual, of Halo CE says you are playing as the last Spartan fleeing from the Fall of Reach.
Reach was sick.
@@Dem0n2c "He died thinking he'd just saved the planet. We should all be so lucky."
"Everyone dies alone. But, if you *mean* something to someone... if you help someone... or loved someone... if even a single person remembers you... then maybe you never really die at all. "
Reminds me of how ancestors are given more importance in tragic times and disadvantaged countries. Dia de los Muertos is all about remembering the dead, which is a concept so meaningful to me that I wish it was a worldwide thing because im not Mexican. As a side note, I have heard the reason many latinos have multiple middle-names is due to ingraining the names of their ancestors into their newborns, kind of like how royals would use roman numerals to differentiate their lineages.
@@ArchSchizo funnily enough ancestor veneration used to be big in Europe their was once a time when European grave yards for at least the wealthy and upper middle class had mausoleums dedicated to ancestor’s.
@@ArchSchizo Latins usually receive both the name of their mother and father, and sometimes they get multiple first names, and when they marry they get their partner's name at the end. for example my mother was called Rosa Olivia (first name) Lima (mother's name) da Silva (father's name) Oliveira (married name). usually only the father's name is passed down, but some people like to mix it up (like women pass their mother's name and men pass their father's name, or they just pass the name they like the most). sometimes only the women will add the married name to the end, but sometimes the man will also include his wife name at the end. Royal families were fun because instead of a single lineage like English Royalty, they carried the name of every single lineage they were related to, some names could be 30+ names long.
Oh I understand that reference! It's from Person of Interest! I love that show and that such a great quote!
Gaeeeeeeee
I have genuinely really appreciated your staunch defense of non-ironic hope and optimism in this and your superman videos and more.
unhopeful stories are for cowards
This. I hate grimdark. I like Hopepunk, Hopepunk is great.
@@dinodude7290 TRUE
Same! As I’ve gotten older I’ve really grown to appreciate optimistic stories
Fuck the hell yeah, brother
I want that "This Way For Pain" image as a meme
EDIT: Never mind, all of Red's drawings are fantastic and I want all of them.
I was not expecting to burst into tears upon hearing "we can always choose to be kind and that will always matter" thnx
Ikr Red just casually grabbing all my heart strings in a single sentence at the last 5 seconds of the video
You love to see it :'3
"Ah, this is another good episode of _bluwhaaaaaa_"
Yep. I got that.
I'm glad I wasn't alone in this! I got all choked up.
I came into this expecting a nice foray into technical writing, and I ended up with a deep contemplation and psychoanalysis of catharsis, suffering, hope, and sacrifice… What was it Iroh said? “You know what’s better than finding something you were looking for? Finding something you /weren’t/ looking for at a great bargain!”
Love y’all’s content, Red!
there was also this one line when he was flirting with the fortune teller when he and zuko were hunting the avatar with the bounty hunter on the shirzu.
""At my age, there Is only one big suprise left, and I'd just as soon leave It a mystery."
You see, the audience does not need every story to have a definite ending. Some things can just be left up for interpretation and speculation.
I am so glad you had ExU Calamity clips here. One of my favourite doomed hero stories ever and it was partly improvised. I especially loves the ending [SPOILERS] - the Calamity happened, everything was over, but by throwing in everything they had to give him a chance, Cerrit still survived. That was the most satisfying dash of optimism they could’ve done
Same. And it is emphasized; They failed, but they didn't. Yes, the heroes of the story died except one, but they saved hundreds, if not thousands of lives. They prevented the apocalypse from being as big as it could have been. Avalir was ultimately doomed no matter what, but they saved far, far more than Avalir.
I was searching for any comments on this. Very true!
Yuppers. Calamity is a tear-fest. Onion ninjas in abundance.
"Why do we tell stories? To try to make sense of a world that can be terrifying and enormous. In Exandria, I don't know that your story will long be known. I don't know who will remain to tell it, but it did happen - and it did matter. And though the Calamity is here, because of you, it will not be here forever."
Weeping.
My first experience with doomed heroes was Halo: Reach. Reach literally opens with a flash forward of your character’s helmet, visor shattered, abandoned in a desolate wasteland. Despite knowing that Reach will be glassed and Noble team will die, Reach remains compelling through the tragedy of their futile struggle. There’s a level in the game where you need to sneak aboard a spaceship to detonate a rigged slip-space drive to destroy a massive super carrier. The whole time I was thinking “Will this not work in the end? We can’t succeed. Reach falls in the end”. Then at the end of the level, a major character stays behind to detonate the drive, wiping out the carrier. And then in response to the lost carrier, the Covenant sends an entire fleet to annihilate the planet. You complete your mission, but it turned out to be in vain. The game even comments on the tragedy of knowing the ending. Carter the team leader says “Jorge died thinking he saved the planet. We should all be so lucky”.
To add to this, Jorge is a Spartan-II, with the rest of the main team being Spartan-IIIs. At the time, SPARTAN-IIs were thought to be invincible (mainly because any Spartan-II death happened in books and we didn’t see any other Spartan-II other than the Chief). So this made the loss even more tragic
Halo Reach works because like Red says, they fling the light into the darkness. Even when the original goal of saving Reach becomes hopeless, a new hope is presented, bring the last fragment of Cortana to safety.
I really like how, since Six is such a blank slate and how customizable their armor is, it’s less like the story of how Six, the character, dies and more so how you, the jackass on the couch, dies.
In my playthrough with my friends, I undercut the drama of the ending completely by mistake in falling arsebackwards off the edge just as it got to the Alamo moment at the end.
And as Bungie says, it is a story of a planet, a doomed place that will forever going forward be a rallying cry for the survivors. Reach is still my favorite Halo game, and it truly makes you feel the struggle. The covenant doesn't speak English, your health doesn't regenerate, it is a tragedy doomed planet with doomed people and A Fistfull of Arrows should be canon damn it.
Red eloquently explained the trope, “Yep, that’s me. You’re probably wondering how I ended up here”
Isn't that Medias Res
Baba O'Riley by The Who starts playing
On the topic of GrimDark, I think the Fall of Cadia does it best. No one wins and the "hope" from Cadia's last stand is a last gasp because now the way from the warp is so wide open, it makes She Who Thirsts jealous. But the stand was just so epic, and the last defiant act was so awesome that despite knowing it's the beginning of the end, I can't help but be thoroughly moved by it. To fire even as your planet cracks, to not even break while the World around you breaks and crumbles, is amazing and I love it. The Planet broke before the Guard did. Cadia stands!
It's one of those weird ones because 40k is the textbook of GrimDark and a *lot* of it is done very poorly. Casualties in the trillions for basically zero gain style things.
However, the Fall of Cadia does stand in some ways as an example of them doing it right, because it fundamentally shook the status quo, and demonstrated the overwhelming bravery of Humanity's weakest defenders. Stalwart, underequipped men and women who refuse to relinquish their duty even knowing that they have only death waiting for them.
Because of that, the 13th Crusade ended in a Chaos victory, yet the status quo was forced to change, suddenly the Imperium is forced into a chain of events that might rekindle the spirit of humanity rather than just continue to remain in the festering carcass of a more golden age. A Primarch returns, an Eldar god is born, and hope is returned even to the Grim Darkness of the 40th millennium.
@@arbiterally101 casualties in the trillions for zero gain isn't inherently wrong, in the vast future civilizations will have gigantic amounts of people in them. Every year millions die from the flu, it doesn't matter because that number is so small in the grand scheme of things. Same for 40k it doesn't say ''trillions died'' to be edgy, but to showcase how big we think trillions are is still very small for the vast future
Yeah I think Red can be so hope pulled sometimes she can miss the beauty of fighting on when there is no hope, when the characters know it’s hopeless, but they’re simply incapable of giving up.
I honestly think “the hopeless last stand” is one of those stories that’s kinda universal, Poland holding against Germany despite being abandoned by the Allie’s, the last charge of the samurai at Shiroyama, the Alamo during Texas war of independence. They were all hopeless last stands, but the courage they showed kept their dreams alive
When Red said "There a PROPHECY involved" I half expected Hades to show up with his guitar.
I think this trope does pair very well with the "Last Stand" trope. Having a character know he is doomed but still deciding to stand his ground because a great variety of reasons is something I find very, very touching. If you pair this to the "guardian" trope you can get something very emotional.
Last Stand is such an underrated trope and always gets me. I think it goes under the radar for a lot of people bc it often applies to side characters while the focus is on a hero saving the day, like in Star Wars, how every pilot doing the trench run watched the ones before them get shot down but still went in after them anyway because failure simply wasn't an option.
I think a lot of people roll their eyes at "the last stand" trope. But it gets me Every. Single. Time.
In all of its variations, and every iteration of "just a little longer" I fall for it and love it
Ah yes, the ending of Crisis Core
@@drustanastrophel9538 The price of freedom is steep
I always loved the ending of Halo:Reach because of this
I once read a great ATLA reincarnation time loop fanfic from Azula's perspective. It was really tragic as all her efforts to live past the age of 15 turned her into the heartless version of herself from the show. Since we know she lives on in the show, we know that when she actually succeeds, it will be the gut-wrenchingly awful way that it happens in the show. The fic does give her a chance to put herself back together again afterwards, and even gives her a semi-happy ending with Ty Lee. It's a great fic.
Link?
Velocivoid, did a quick google and it looks like it may be one called Grounded Lightening? Not entirely certain though.
I don't remember. I remember scrolling through the Azula/Ty Lee tag in order to find it.
Leaving a reply so I can find this comment again
@@OreoRanger2210 same
I appreciate this 20 minute defence of those of us who actively enjoy stories being spoiled.
I very rarely just go along with the story after picking it up. I have more fun knowing what'll happen, and then looking for the dramatic irony and foreshadowing when I actually read it.
@@rvawildcardwolf2843 i like both, I like the first time around, but I also very much enjoy re-watching things
That silly. Knowing the plot beforehand messes up with story design. But if you find it more entertaining, then so be it. However, that is objectively a worse way of experiencing the story.
@@easternhills1329 did... Did you not watch the video?
@@easternhills1329 No one was talking about having the entire plot spoiled for you. But most doomed hero story's only work because we know that their going to end bad in some way. If we didn't know that, the entire story would feel unsatifing.
I remember some old memes about "Why in your Power Fantasies, do you choose to be good?"
And the response of "Because my Power Fantasy is to help people!"
And that... sticks around a lot with this. Whether in moments of trying to secure a better future for all, or coming together during hard and maybe apocalyptic times... Even if I knew I was to die in 60 days, I would spend them with my loved ones trying to make them the brightest days I could. Not all of them will be, many will still be laden with grief and heartbreak, but there will always be those bits of Joy sprinkled throughout.
My favorite super contrived time loop is the “Mystery Spot” episode of Supernatural. Every single death that restarted the loop was contrived as hell, but it had an in universe reason that it ended up so contrived. Sometimes ridiculous contrivances can work if properly supported in universe.
A less comedic example of this is the Dr. Strange What if... shown in this video.
The Ancient One explained very clearly why it was happening. It was all to avoid the grandfather paradox.
Mystery Spot is wild lmao
".......does this taco taste weird to you?"
The best time loop episode I have ever seen or read.
Also, sometimes contrivance is just a tool for the things that we care about - if you need to have a great in-universe explanation for EVERYTHING, that’s the author version of the conspiracy theory board. And that’s extremely tiring
Hadestown is easily one of the best uses of Doomed Hero I've ever seen. It is completely heart wrenching and hurts so good.
oh, absolutely. I still remember being in the theatre the first time and the show just coming for my soul with that whole we tell the story again and again as if it might turn out this time, because it matters, because of orpheus, and because it just fit so perfectly with the frame of mind I was in at the time.
Obviously I knew what was going to happen to Orpheus and Eurydice going in. But when it got close to the ending I was still in suspense trying to figure out how they were going to end the story, if that makes sense. Like, they HAVE to do that ending, it's Orpheus. But that can't just be it, everyone is so invested in those two. I love how they managed to stick the landing, 10/10
I love Hadestown so much -- it felt like the entire theatre had its breath stolen when the tragedy strikes; Eva's weak little "Orpheus" before going under broke my heart and I was thankful I brought so many tissues in my purse
Oh man hadestown is so good, I was so glad I waited to hear most of the musical at an actual show
Maybe it will turn out this time...
You reminded me of a quote that for a long time, I had forgotten about. "Always be kind. Sometimes kindness is all you can give. Sometimes kindness is enough." Ironically, words spoken by a Doomed Hero who knew she was living on borrowed time, and eventually gave her life to save everyone. Thank you for reminding me of her and her story.
Who
Sounds like Sanguinius.
Flowerfell
@@Jessica_Szoke The quote is from Sans Undertale.
@pyropulse you good fellow trope enjoyer?
I’m so happy that Madoka Magica was included in here, it such a great show and an excellent story that’s depressing yet conveys a message about hope
That’s the key that (apparently) a lot of “dark magical girl” stories miss. Madoka is simultaneously one of the most depressing and uplifting stories I’ve ever experienced, as that intense sorrow and despair gives way for incredibly cathartic hope at the end.
@@FedoraKirbAlso, what makes Madonna dark is that it’s a full-blown tragedy with the characters meeting awful ends due to major flaws (like Mami’s overconfidence or Homura’s love for Madoka) and downward spirals. It wasn’t being needlessly edgy or grim to be cool.
I just wish When They Cry was also included. Rika going through millennia watching her friends go insane and kill each other while trying to figure out how to even make it one more day is rather heartbreaking, while also making for an interesting mystery and heartwarming demonstration of The Power of Friendship.
I say this with complete sincerity: this is the best Trope Talk you’ve ever written. This one genuinely made me cry. I’m sure you hear this a lot, but thank you so much for creating. Seeing a new upload or comic update never fails to brighten my day.
"Trying to predict all future bad stuff and protect yourself from it is an anxiety disorder." Ouch that one hurt. But great trope talk!!! This one was really good!
“We can always choose to be kind, and that will always matter.”
Thank you.
That reminder of “SLIPSPACE RUPTURE DETECTED” stabbed me right in the soul.
There's a Halo Support Group in your area. My best wishes on your recovery. :)
From the beginning you know the end.
Noble sacrificed everything, including themselves, but they didn't only earned humanity time, but also the means to eventually end the war, who would say finding the Holy Rings would lead to their demise?
I just love that both ODST and Reach are receiving more attention recently.
Everytime somebody brings up Halo in any capacity my brain says to itself, “I should replay every halo campaign in order again.”
I'm thinking yet again of a couple of lines from the Revenge of the Sith novelization, and they've alway stuck with me when talking about this kind of thing. "This story happened a long time ago in galaxy far, far away. It is already over. Nothing can be done to change it. It is a story of love and loss. Brotherhood and betrayal. Courage and sacrifice and the death of dreams. It is the story of the blurred line between our best and our worst. It is the story of the end of an age." And then, after the preamble, "Only two. Two is enough. Two is enough because the adults are wrong, and their younglings are right. Though this is the end of the age of heroes, it has saved its best for last."
Matthew Effing Stover
18:22 There's just ...something. Something about that image. It... strikes me. Every time. The feels surge every time.
Excellent art red.
It's interesting that Red's definition of "doomed hero" applies at least as well to Deku's "This is the story of how I became the world's greatest hero" as it does to Romeo and Juliet's "star-crossed lovers". Arguably better, since Deku is unambiguously heroic.
Then he switched it up and says 'This is how WE became the world's greatest Heroes'
Also American Psycho, his fate was set in stone, and it was 0-consequences.
It's got the same narrative point, here is what will happen and here is how we get there, but in a positive direction rather than the negative direction.
Deku is a horrible character though
Indeed. General Radahn is better.
I feel like the message, “you can choose to be kind” is one that is extremely overlooked and under appreciated.
“Everything Everywhere All at Once”:
Please see it if you haven’t done so already.
Reminds me of Peter Capaldi's regeneration speech in Doctor Who, 12 regenerating to 13, "Never be cruel, never be cowardly but always be kind." To be honest while I was listening I kept thinking about the end of 10 Ood Sigma, though it could have been the woman on the bus, gave 10 a prophecy and in Waters of Mars 10 immediately lampshaded it and you saw at the end that 10 realised that maybe he shouldn't avoid it.
How so?
I want to say, I don't think everyone is able to choose to be kind. There's people out there who are too damaged and too stressed out to do anything else than to be angry and/or sad.
A quote I've always lived by: "Be kind, for everyone is fighting their own battles"
One of the things that Calamity pulled off as a prequel series was it moved the goal post. Going into it, everyone knows that the calamity killed 2/3rds of the population. Once the calamity starts our group of heroes is given a prophecy that unless they figure something out, EVERYBODY is going to die.
I had never seen a prequel series create such clear purpose and actual stakes in the story to this point I was absolutely amazed.
I think this is a large appeal of historical fiction. An educated reader knows how the story will end, how all the real characters die, but watching them get to that point while being allowed inside their minds is fascinating.
1917 is a great example. For those who know the battle, they know exactly what is happening and that the message to halt the attack will make it. What we don't see coming is all the things that go wrong trying to get there, and every moment not getting to the destination is a moment where someone's life could be saved.
@@justinalicea1590 not only that, but you still feel emotionally wrong out by the end of that movie despite the protagonist technically having succeeded.
Like, he accomplished his mission, but it definitely doesn't feel like it was a particularly substantive victory in the greater context of the war, and if that isn't a great summary of world war I, I don't know what is
A well-built piece of historical fiction exploits our sense of the inevitable and pits it against our hope for the better. We keep having more stories about Spartacus and William Wallace and all sorts of ancient heroes that any child can tell you end badly for them, but seeing it play out well can make what is inevitable somehow still shocking. I mean hell, we keep watching Shaekspeare's tragedies even though by this point more people know the broad outline of the big three tragedies than major historical events.
It's just a real shame that most historical fiction really seems to struggle with the "historical" part; we're interested in the story as it happened because what actually happened is fascinating and can provide important lessons, yet historical fiction creators generally seem to want to do everything they can to avoid showing the story that actually happened.
Most stories about Native Americans during colonization feel this way. Most stories about colonization in general o guess feel this way 🤔
Well, that 20 minutes just helped me process a week's worth of anxiety. "At the end of the day, no matter what the night holds and what secret tragedies may be lurking for us, we can always choose to be kind. And that will always matter." is right up there with "Let There Be Dragons". Utterly beautiful.
Type three reminded me of Megamind (spoilers for how it goes after the movie catches up to the start), where it opens with Megamind falling to his death with a gun-type device falling next to him, then goes back to the start of his story and starts working its way forwards. By the time it gets back to the start of the movie, people who have been paying attention will have had the opportunity to piece together that there IS a way out if he can just put the pieces together, making it feel much better when he makes it through.
"We get the ache of dramatic irony from seeing regular people living there lives as though they aren't mere hours away from becoming very interesting foot notes in a future text book"
Oof I don't know why but that line hit me really hard. Literally brought tears to my eyes and very accurate description.
It's a very sad thought because it also implies that these could be us at any moment, so it makes us emphasize with the victims of such Events even more.
That being said, I have to admit that Red's dry, nonchalant delivery "mere hours away from becoming very interesting footnotes" made me laugh out loud so much I had to pause the video :'D
Most men live lives of quiet desperation
This is early 2020 vibes
@@Xevailo That happened to people who died in late 2019/early 2020 from COVID not knowing they were a small part of a worldwide event that is still happening and most gave up on
that’s because that’s what life is, only longer. all you have to do is wait a century or two and everyone you’ve ever known becomes nothing but an “i was here” on a gravestone. sometimes they invent cool stuff or start wars, but that’s really all anyone is at the end of the line
You used a lot of ExU: Calamity clips in here, and that absolutely hits the conclusion home. I remember feeling _pretty_ satisfied and fairly checked out after the second-last episode when they triggered their own destruction, but the fact they were so successful in the last episode at making sure to save as much as possible at the expense of their own lives was a great moral to end on.
Damn just seeing the clip of Cerrit and his kids is making me tear up again. How could you do this to me, Red.
In a way it hits even harder given the actual agency of player choices in Calamity.
Thing is one action of one of the characters started the calamity. And no matter what it still would have happend. Latter though but it still would have happened and nothing would have changed it the players knew that. Plus the clamity would have been much much much worse if not for the characters stoping the elemental titans form being free if they were free the calamity would or could have ended differently. The actions of the characters did start the calamity but they made it easier
I've been hearing a lot about the finale to ExU: Calamity and all the spoilers just keep pulling me closer and closer towards actually listening to it for the story. The only thing stopping me is the length of the episodes and my frequent lack of work that will actually let me listen to it.
EXU calamity was so Goddamn good
@@papercraftcynder5430 Do it.
I just had the thought of "How must PTSD would someone who went through the time loop doom have?"
According to the anime's Magical Girl Madoka and Future Diary the answer is "all of it". Which is fair because in each scenario the doomed hero is desperately trying to save someone else while being woefully ill equipped.
@@Ralathar44 the best one was when Homura failed horribly because she spawned her own worst enemy and ignored her until she shot up a school, picked apart all her beliefs and resolve and sniped Madoka as a final act of defiance, which saved the world.
according to Re:Zero, a lot
Considering the number of times Furude Rika nearly gave up from the pain of seeing everyone dearest to her murdered or twisted into murdering each other, yeah "all of it" sounds about right. She went through all the levels many times, and apparently also drinks heavily from time to time despite being 11, technically.
Red talking about the apocalypse log version of the story of how i died version of this trope:
Me, a tolkien nerd: Ah yes, the Book of Mazarbul (that's the journal thing they found in Balin's tomb in Moria)
Red, later: Ah yes, the Book of Mazarbul
Majora's Mask is my favorite case of the time loop, since in this case it isn't just the hero, it's the whole of Termina that the player knows is going to die, so they have a lot more to care about. Seeing the different people's reactions to their knowing that they're going to die is amazing.
Outer wilds has a similar vibe. Time loops tend to work well in video games.
@@joaomrtins that's because it's a very good in-game way of handling respawning. Outer wilds also works so well because of the time limit of each loop. you know you're doomed to die so you become more and more reckless which is something I often thought was stupid in time loop stories, how could the protagonist make such simple mistakes he's done it millions of times but now I realise how organic and human it makes them. I have forgotten to wear my spacesuit more than I want to admit or I forgot to lift [REDACTED] in Brittle Hollow before using [REDACTED] on the Ash Twin a couple of times too.
@@LonelyAncient the main enemy in this game is your own silly mistakes.
Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
“As though they aren’t mere hours away from becoming very interesting footnotes in a future textbook.” Something about that sentence is slightly terrifying
One of my favourite doomed heroes is Guts from Berserk. Guts is branded, and this condemns him to a certain fate that I can safely refer to as “grim,” to say the least. Despite this, he still fights for his life with the odds against him every time, and he still forms a sort of found family around him and begins to overcome his trauma. It’s very uplifting if you don’t think too hard about it…
Came here for this. If you read Black Swordsman first, you know the eclipse is coming. If you start with Golden Age instead, the eclipse comes out of nowhere. Both are effective payoffs for different reasons.
One of the most powerful moments in Berserk comes when you finish the Golden Age and the first chapter of the Conviction Arc is "The Black Swordsman Once More". It's devastating- after all we've seen Guts be capable- love, generosity, philosophy, kindness- he's reduced by trauma back to this violent, angry man with no purpose in his life but fighting. It's all the more effective because we know exactly who this Black Swordsman is from the first arc.
Also, honestly, I think Berserk is uplifting even if you do think hard about it. It's honest about how horrible going through trauma can be, but it also steadfastly believes that it's always worth it to do the work to heal and that you can overcome any trauma by being vulnerable with those who care for you.
Love how you quoted Waymond from "Everything Everywhere All at Once" in the end of the video. That damn movie always just warms my heart
Hi, Red. Even more than usual, he visual aids were amazing at communicating a complex point. ex. "I hope that doesn't kill me." with the wave about to crash. The shot of the protagonist throwing the shining hope out of the wave and towards off-screen survivors. The person self-trapped in the iron lung as an asteroid hurtles towards them. The faceless horror with the bat coming up from behind the protagonist. Each one packed a punch and got the point across.
I really really love the pulls from EXU calamity. That did a fantastic job of capturing that bitter sweet feeling. “We’re doomed anyways, so it’s time to pull out all the stops.”
And uh, spoilers. It was really, really satisfying when Travis’ character got out.
Critical Role: Calamity was such an amazing one shot!! Brennan Mulligan is so creative and expressive! He really put on show the pure contempt and violence capable of devils in d&d.
one amazing example of Doomed Hero is Jinx from Arcane. It was the perfect story for those that know what she is doomed to become and those that never even heard of the game.
It presented a situation in which, those that knew, slowly dread what is bound to happen once they fall in love with Powder, and those that didnt know, got to experience the slow decent into madness while desperately hoping Vi can eventually get Powder back. By the end of it, regardless of how you started, nothing but conflicting feelings and sorrow remain.
Same can be said for all the other characters, you can tell "who is gonna survive" based on who actually is a champion in the game, but it does not matter once the monkey bomb goes off, its just as shocking as it would have been if you had no basis.
Arcane was definitely a great example of a doomed hero narrative. In a way, all the main characters in Arcane are doomed in the sense that they're doomed to become who they are in League of Legends: Jinx, Vi, Catelyn, Jayce, Viktor, Singed, Vander/Warwick, etc., but Jinx is definitely the best example.
Right! Throughout the first three episodes, I just kept thinking "Powder's so sweet... I'm so sorry for what she's about to turn into."
@@matthewmuir8884 Honestly, Vi also has a pretty big doomed element with the outside context of the story. She’s just as doomed to join the organization that killed her parents as an Enforcer as Jinx is to go insane.
@@Tortferngatr Yes, I agree. I even listed Vi second on the list (though the list was in no particular order).
I've been waiting for the day Madoka Magica would pop up in some capacity in Trope Talks. So many good examples of so many things in that little series
Me too LOL. I was thinking "wow this would be a perfect time to show Madoka as b-roll" and then bam, madoka b-roll happened.
Very true. Though I remember being tempted to pick up the manga from a book store, only to find out Kyuubei had actual facial expressions. To me, the anime did it better in that he was cute but cold. Keeping a neutral expression made it much more unnerving when he finally revealed what he was doing
Same! I’ve always been curious to know if Red has seen Madoka Magica. It’s just that the way it shows utter darkness and despair, but still convey a message of hope, is amazing. And the way it managed to make an ending that, in all aspects, should’ve felt unsatisfying, yet didn’t. It was a satisfying ending even though Homura was still separated from Madoka
@@Coffee-hj5diI think she talked about it briefly in one of the livestreams.
My favorite instance of this trope is the doomed immortal hero that chooses to spend said immortality stalling a great evil forever. "Now....fight me for eternity!"
Doctor Strange
Shoutouts to Emperor's New Groove for giving us a doomed hero(?) and then continuing past the point of doom.
Yeah I was also reminded of ENG when she talked about starting a story with a doomed hero. Even though Kuzco isn't quite a hero.
That movie is underrated.
Technically, that's just what's called "in media res", it wasn't really a doomed hero narrative.
Great movie, though.
This is distinctly different from a heroic version of the arch-nemesis of Reed Richards, or a guy who goes to space hell to fight space demons to save humanity. Those are Doom Heroes.
Ba-dum-tish!
If only Doom would decide to conquer Hell and Doomguy were put in charge of Latveria, things on the whole would be a lot better for everyone involved
@@Zomburai45 Doom is exactly the kind of hubristic madman who would become worse as a result of being in Hell.
@@nickmalachai2227 Yeah, to Doomguy, it’s a target practice range packed with piñatas filled with vengeance. To Doom, “it’s free real estate.”
@@Zomburai45 I have my doubts. I can only see different flavors of awful arising from each of those situations.
The captain of the Demeter in Dracula qualifies as a doomed hero... I think the whole Demeter sequence is so well done and creepy and heartbreaking
18:00 "The DC is 30"
"31"
The little victories in Calamity got me sobbing, I swear to god
And even then, he might not make it. There's actually very little chance that he did. But even that glimmer of hope fucking wrecked me. Now I want to rewatch Calamity!
“The Brass Ring endures.”
“You don’t get to give your children the world they deserve. But you get to give your children a world they can fight for.”
"How can you get an audience to root for a hero doomed to die?"
Cassian Andor has entered the chat.
Dude, the ENTIRE cast of Rogue One qualifies.
That's true, but Cassian's got a larger share of the dramatic irony because he now has a Disney+ series about the operations he did before he met Jyn Erso.
There was one book I liked back in high school that I didn't know the term for, but it was a literal apocalypse log. It was Diary format of a Teenager living through a comet strike on the moon that caused it to enter a tighter orbit, thus totally wrecking the climate and tides basically overnight. The ending is a final entry stating that the town is no longer a viable place to live and this diary is being left behind because it's full and the chances of someone else finding it in the future aren't totally 0. I don't remember the name of it anymore though.
Oh! I remember hearing about this book although I never read it. I think it's called Life as We Knew It
I *really* appreciated the clips from EXU Calamity being here. What a wonderful narrative and piece of storytelling those four episodes are.
I need rewatch that whole series honestly,
that last episode made me cry multiple times.
Also even though everyone knew the calamity was going to happen, their work never felt pointless.
The ending was something else dude. The last roll of the campaign. DC of 30 😭
"Old man dies, young girl lives." That line from Sincity kept bouncing around in my head listening to this.
I’m reminded of a Series of Unfortunate Events and how it sometimes still seems surprising even with the narrator regularly reminding us that it doesn’t end well.
I think most of those feelings of surprise come from the fact that there were times where something could have been done to help the Baudelaire siblings by the third time they were moved to a new place or even the time when Aunt Josephine was killed, as it should have been suspicious to many people who new why the family was targeted that Count Olaf is always at the scene, but they did nothing.
there's a book that does this troupe very well and it's literally called "they both die in the end" and it's a story about a society where people know what day they'll die and have to make the most of their final day. it's a very sad book that made me cry but it was also very beautiful and well written. 10/10 would recommend
Oh my gosh. Yes, absolutely. That story was so beautiful and hit me really hard. I recommend it to anyone, it’s extremely well written and worth your time. The concept is genius and explored really well.
YES GOSH YES THAT BOOK IS HEARTBREAKING
Reminds me of The Machine of Death series of short stories, said machine predicted the circumstances of any persons' death.
Yes!!! That book immediately came to mind when i read the title of this vid!
I had a feeling a fellow fan of the book would be here.
I haven't seen Grave of the Fireflies in 20 years and seeing short clips of it here has put me in a mood.
I can't bring myself to watch that one. I need to watch with a specific someone who either i haven't met yet or hasn't become who they need to be yet.
@@kohakuaiko what do you mean by that?
I haven't seen GotF ever and have intentionally avoided it, and it still put me in a mood.
You really only need to see Grave of the Fireflies once. It stays with you.
It's a movie everyone should watch once, it is also the most depressing movie ever and will haunt you forever. A true masterpiece.
Halo Reach is one of my favorite Doomed heroes story. They all knew at some point they’re doomed. But they still remained calmed and did everything in there power to fight back. Even the final person on Reach, Noble 6 fought an endless horde till his breath because he refused to go out quietly. And it was the sacrifice of Noble Team and the many people of Reach that humanity was given a fighting chance against the covenant
I also feel like the loop structure where no matter what is attempted always yielding the same results and the character needing to except that and move on can provide an outlet for those with anxiety and survivors guilt. We always feel that sense of, “ if only I had asked them to stay“ or “ could I have done anything different to have changed how this tragedy played out?“ and it sometimes helps to immerse yourself in a narrative that provides comfort that there was nothing you could have done. The only thing now is to move on.
That's a really good point too
“Trying to predict all future bad stuff to protect yourself from it is an anxiety disorder”
Cmon red don’t call me out like that 😂
I remember reading a book series once that has an interesting sort of doomed hero narrative by having the books jump from the present to the future and then back. At the end of the final book the "present" chapters had wrapped around to the beginning of where the "future" chapters had started. The whole thing was fascinating to read because in the future chapters you get to see a villainous and twisted version of the main character that seems so good in the present, but you can still see how they are the same person and you desperately want to see how they fell so far. It was really impressive because of how perfectly it timed the reveal of information was.
so, you gotta share what this series is called.
What’s it calledv
Sauce please
What was the book? You do remember right?
The first book is The Bone Witch, and its by Rin Chupeco
This feels like a prolonged answer to the 'Why listen to angry music when you are already angry?' and I love it
I really feel this. I've had some stuff going on lately, and raw, sharp, poundy music has been a great outlet. It's funny, because I wasn't really into it as a teenager when the stereotypes said I should have been, but it's sure useful now.
This channel is really turning into "How I use fiction to escape my personal emotions" and I'm here for it. Keep up the good work!
Or "How I use fiction to _process*_ my personal emotions."
That's closer to what _catharsis_ is supposed to be.
Aside from that, I agree :)
*Not really "process" in an intellectual sense, in terms of content; closer to how your body processes the food you eat.
I hope you mean "escape" as, like, "escapism" to help you get in a better mood/keep hope alive and not "evading real life". If you only ever contemplate your issues, you might be absorbed by that negativity. Keep the balance, as with all things. Acknowledge your problems, but have fun too.
One of my favorite versions of this is from The Simpsons, of all places. Homer eats deadly fugu fish and is told he has one more day to live. He spends the entire day just trying to fill it with all the important things in his life.
There's just something sadly relatable about all that, and that penultimate scene where he falls asleep by the window always gets me, even though I know he's totally fine.
I think Star Wars added a new character to the prequel well, with Ashoka. She was made important to the story while working with the issue of her not existing before the clone wars
That's debatable.
With all due respect to Ahsoka, she never really was important to the main narrative of Star Wars in that the story of the films can be told without her and still make perfect sense -plotholes from the sequels withstanding.-
Arcane did a really good job adding new characters; my favourite example being Silco. Spoilers ahead:
At first glance, he seems like a typical season 1 prequel villain: an overt antagonist who is there to oppose the main characters for a bit, get them started on their journey towards who they come, and then die to pave the way for them. He does all that and _more;_ the moment he adopted Jinx at the end of episode 3 was the moment that cemented that he would be a very interesting character going forward, and indeed, he was.
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi She unironically feels like a self insert character. Give the kids a vehicle to hang out with Obi-Wan and Anakin. It's innocent enough for the original concept of the show. But it's now becoming an issue. She is ultimately defined by the fact that she was inserted into someone else's story but never really developed much of her own identity. The reason I like the Martez sisters arc was it felt like Ahsoka was getting her own stuff, her own friends, her own enemies, her own story. But nope right back to taking someone else's hand me downs (Maul).
Honestly, what makes me happiest is that Red used Madoka Magica and Grave of the Fireflies as examples for this trope talk.
It's telling when the only time the series didn't star a doomed heroine was Magia Record's Iroha. Madoka ends as you'd expect, Oriko's story is a prequel to Madoka and her whole character is Madoka but gone horribly wrong(she even went out sacrificing her life for a world that outright hates her, arguably more noble than Madoka herself), Tart is Jeanne D'Arc and we saw her end in the anime so it was a given and Suzune is almost a failure hero as her only acomplishment was a minor personal victory and death on her own terms and lastly Kazumi seems victorious at the end but then you remember how Madoka ends and you realize Kazumi gets killed by Madoka herself due to her being a Witch with a Soul. Iroha basically gets all the upsides to Madoka's ascention but none of the downsides cause she's too marketable to remove.
There’s this story I made in high-school where the main character finds a journal under the floor boards. Looking back on it, this is full of this trope and it’s really good, until the end where I lost motivation and made it really cringey.
Edit: it’s also really long on account of being 21 chapters long (1 chapters= a 100 year lifetime, because every single incarnation of the author of the journal is a centenarian). The story take place in our time period (early 2000’s) but the journal starts in year 0.
The pages of the journal are full of diagrams and incomprehensible words, but as he flips through the letters become more and more legible until it becomes clear modern day English.
When he finally gets to understand the words, he goes back, does some research and starts understanding the earlier chapters. When the book makes sense, he realizes that it’s a story, and that the one who wrote it was there only 2 decades ago.
The story in the journal explains that of primordial entity who brought the wrath of new gods upon themselves and was cast down to earth in a mortal body. Every time they die, they live the same life again and again, reincarnating in a new body through the centuries.
They live out the same scenario (i wrote the story in black pen, then tried to erase the passage containing what the scenario was supposed to be, which caused smudging and 15 year old me decided to just leave it that way), dying again and again, until eventually they notice the cycle and it starts to crumble.
The day that they had put the journal in the floorboards was the last time they had died. As my protagonist closes the book, he realizes: “two decades..?” And he spirals into existential crisis, because he is the new reincarnation.
The time loop trope where the hero faces tragedy over and over while growing stronger from their mistakes until they’re able to fix the time loop is literally the entire plot of Re Zero
Unfortunately, Subaru is insufferable.
True he is insufferable at the beginning and he’s still one of my favorite protagonists. Could write a whole thesis analyzing his character and how he develops
Heyy a fellow ReZero fan! Nice!
It is also the plot of Mother of Learning, and it’s wonderful.
I guess I have to read RE:Zero now
I kept waiting for her to bring it up. I was so disappointed when she didn't
"We can always choose to be kind, and that will always matter" Perfect note to end on, Red.