Exactly. I don’t put effects directly on a vocal for that very reason. I’ll put compression and an eq directly on a vocal depending on how I want the signal to interact with delay or reverb. But for delays and reverb i always side chain them. That way I can control the mix easier by just moving the fader.
I´ve recently had the same realization about delay being more useful than reverb for both vocals and guitar. There are a few findings, that I took with me: 1) Two simple delays panned left and right, set with slightly different delay times and character, can really widen the sound in a pleasing manner. 2) You need to high cut your delays, sometimes quite a lot. I also figured out a neat trick: I had a vocal track with a lot of bleed from the band, which I couldn't put delay on. So I processed the track with an online A.I.-based vocal extractor(can't remember which one) and used that track to feed the delay instead. That way, the delay contained only the vocal, and wouldn't affect the other instrument. The separated track didn't sound good enough to use as proper lead vocal, but good enough for the delay, which I high cut anyway. Felt like a genius 😀
W.r.t. the "in-your-face" effect I think the pre-delay as well as the high-cut frequency of the reverb are essential. Also, as already mentioned by others, you can sidechain your reverb, so that it is more focused on the tails. But indeed, a delay can be a surprising alternative, especially if you use a multi-tap delay with different high-cut frequencies.
Ah I should have mentioned pre delay! You are absolutely right. That is especially important with reverbs to try to pull the source closer to the listener. Thanks for sharing!
@@rejuvinatez347 so many. Depends on how much you want to spend and what kind of saturation you want. Fab Filter Saturn is probably the most versatile. Pretty expensive though. Kit Burier is free and is simple to use. Softube Saturation Knob and Waves Arts Tube Saturator Vintage are also free. There are a bunch of other free ones I don't use as often, but they seem fine. Waves Kramer Tape is a good tape saturation plugin. Softube Tape is good as well. Those may be a bit too subtle on aggressive vocals though. I think they're better for taming harsh guitars or adding glue to your full mix. Black Box HG-2 is very popular. It's normally expensive, but if you keep an eye out for Plugin Alliance sales you can get it for under $40 at times.
@@rejuvinatez347 real gear like compressors and tape machines have the best saturation that no plugin will ever match. You can also use guitar pedals as sends to add analog saturation. Digitally you can use decapitator or really any plugin that adds odd harmonics, like distortion and low fi
I can't say this doesn't fill in some blanks for me. I was introduced to a Behringer DSP yet I didn't know what my sound guy was doing. This video helped me understand that it was about the Delay and not so much the Reverb.
I like to use a couple of delays and a single room reverb just barely to tuck the vocal back just a hair. I don’t like it when the vocal is too far in front and a very small reverb helps with that.
I use Berry Gordy's great trick of using two tracks of identical vocals...One dry and eq'd to accentuate the positive..And one wet and fluffy...I then mix them according to taste...Rinse and repeat. But that's just me..Great vid Raytown..Thank you.
The problem with the reverb in this example is there's too much low end. Reverb on most things, especially vocals, should have a high pass filter. Also, a slight pre-delay. Finally, don't use so much reverb. Lower the mix knob. I prefer reverb, as long as it's used properly.
I believe that abuse of reverb and upper mid boost on vox is a legacy derived from old school masking of pitchy singers. Nevertheless....listening to this (percieved) "dry" vocal reminds me of the sad fact that auto-tune has ceased being a 'special' effect and is now considered as basic necessity to engineers as EQ and volume. Am I wrong?
I really hate auto tune. If someone can’t sing they shouldn’t unless they’re performance fits the material, but don’t just polish turds because there are many more deserving dedicated singers who need the job 😁
@Daryl SKYTZO Willis I sort of agree with that but would add that some great classic songs have pitchy singers, but it works because a lot of times it's in contrast with a lush composition and it gives it character. I suspect if that style ever resurfaces and trends, you'll have natural perfect pitch vocalists being _de-tuned_ with a plug-in called the _Louie Armstrong-izer_ 😆
@Daryl SKYTZO Willis Yeah I'm not a fan of auto tune, but my fear is not who it's putting out of work but that it's "reconditioning" the average listener. I'm fully aware that in Mozart's day there were those who still considered the piano cheating; They called it a "harp playing machine". Sinatra sang flat, Diana Ross sang sharp, but arguably, that was what made them distinctive but more importantly it made them relatablly human. If auto tune was restricted to a particular type of music I wouldn't have a problem. But now it's standard practice in country music mixes of all things. Nashville once had prohibition on electronic instrumentation due to it's "folk preservation" traditions, but apparently $ won the battle of it's heart and soul.
@@maxi-me I fully agree with you. Money always seems to win. People seem to prefer a payoff over the satisfaction of accomplishment from honest work. It’s called laziness.
I like your tactics , and I low key want a nice loud reverb but get up in ur face vocal like young dolph , I wonder what plugins his producers use to get that sound
I feel like this and subtle reverb is the way to go..there's so many ways you can duck the reverb so it's not overpowering and bring it in slowly on a send
I use to use reverb on my rap vocals when i first started, till the first time i paid n went to real studio(really good one too) and the engineers were cool guys knew i was broke, and let me sit in on my own mix’s n learn (this was also during the beginning of daw’s which was main reason i wanted to watch, first time seeing a pro tools screen in action🤣) but ill never forget, literally the first like 2 sentences we shared talking was like ...Me: “your gonna put some reverb on me right”....engineer: NO, you dont want to do that youll drown yourself out”....then they proceeded to teach me how to sparingly use delay to get same effect, but BETTER...and ive never looked back lol, this vid took me back to that moment
I also like to duplicate the track and bus one of the tracks to a reverb so you keep it full as well in your face but also have the wetness of the reverb the way you can control the amount of reverb you don't just slap it on the track
I find reverb can muddy up a lot of mixes both live and recorded.?I like to use a few other tricks like a quick slap back, with a minimal repeat. I also like to actually double up the vocals with just enough left and right separation. This trick works great especially if you’re dealing with a not great singer 😂 as it can save both the singer and the mix as it will sound similar to a stereo chorus effect. That leads me to my last trick I can use both live and during mixing and that is a tasteful amount of chorus.
I agree 100%. I hate reverb on vocals. The detail in the midrange gets smeared and blurry. It's like the difference between recording vocals with an SM58 versus an AKG 414. Why spend so much money on high end condenser mics, if you're just going to smear all those transients and all that midrange character with reverb. I sometimes use an ambient setting on vocals and adjust the wet/dry knob down to something like 15% for just a slight ambiance. Also, adjust the pre-delay so the reverb doesn't apply itself to every part of the vocal. I would rather have a dry vocal thats out of place, than a blurry vocal with no midrange detail. But then again, I am a weirdo.
Is there no auto-tune/pitch correction on these vocals? if not its fantastic vocals. IDK why it just sounds ever so slightly too perfect pitch wise and a bit thick
Check out that ebook I have a link to in the description. One way is to side chain a compressor to the delay so when the vocals are active, the reverb is compressed and the volume is low. Then when no vocals are present, they increase in volume. Other than that, try using less feedback and shorter repeat times 🤘
I do like 7% wet for rap vocals 👌🏼 ....obv u can fine tune the settings to taste, but overall amount, it really dont take much for the main vocal/verses....if im mixing singer it varies, but still not too much, im usually never over 20% wet unless im purposely over doing for performance effect
U can also side chain the reverb to the vocals so it comes in at the tail of the vocal
Exactly. I don’t put effects directly on a vocal for that very reason. I’ll put compression and an eq directly on a vocal depending on how I want the signal to interact with delay or reverb. But for delays and reverb i always side chain them. That way I can control the mix easier by just moving the fader.
@@myronmosley2167 spot on my Friend
I totally agree on this as well. It can sound amazing. I have that trick in the free delay vocal tricks ebook actually!
I´ve recently had the same realization about delay being more useful than reverb for both vocals and guitar.
There are a few findings, that I took with me:
1) Two simple delays panned left and right, set with slightly different delay times and character, can really widen the sound in a pleasing manner.
2) You need to high cut your delays, sometimes quite a lot.
I also figured out a neat trick:
I had a vocal track with a lot of bleed from the band, which I couldn't put delay on. So I processed the track with an online A.I.-based vocal extractor(can't remember which one) and used that track to feed the delay instead. That way, the delay contained only the vocal, and wouldn't affect the other instrument. The separated track didn't sound good enough to use as proper lead vocal, but good enough for the delay, which I high cut anyway. Felt like a genius 😀
That's awesome!!!
I once used an old Lexicon delay unit to achieve #1 results. I loved it but it was difficult to master.
W.r.t. the "in-your-face" effect I think the pre-delay as well as the high-cut frequency of the reverb are essential. Also, as already mentioned by others, you can sidechain your reverb, so that it is more focused on the tails. But indeed, a delay can be a surprising alternative, especially if you use a multi-tap delay with different high-cut frequencies.
Ah I should have mentioned pre delay! You are absolutely right. That is especially important with reverbs to try to pull the source closer to the listener. Thanks for sharing!
Saturation is a great way to get an "in your face" vocal, especially when combined with aggressive compression.
Absolutely! That's for another video hahaha! Thanks for the comment.
Amy good saturation plugins?
@@rejuvinatez347 so many. Depends on how much you want to spend and what kind of saturation you want.
Fab Filter Saturn is probably the most versatile. Pretty expensive though.
Kit Burier is free and is simple to use. Softube Saturation Knob and Waves Arts Tube Saturator Vintage are also free. There are a bunch of other free ones I don't use as often, but they seem fine.
Waves Kramer Tape is a good tape saturation plugin. Softube Tape is good as well. Those may be a bit too subtle on aggressive vocals though. I think they're better for taming harsh guitars or adding glue to your full mix.
Black Box HG-2 is very popular. It's normally expensive, but if you keep an eye out for Plugin Alliance sales you can get it for under $40 at times.
@@rejuvinatez347 real gear like compressors and tape machines have the best saturation that no plugin will ever match. You can also use guitar pedals as sends to add analog saturation. Digitally you can use decapitator or really any plugin that adds odd harmonics, like distortion and low fi
@@awesomematthews1238 So anything form Waves?
I can't say this doesn't fill in some blanks for me.
I was introduced to a Behringer DSP yet I didn't know what my sound guy was doing.
This video helped me understand that it was about the Delay and not so much the Reverb.
I like to use a couple of delays and a single room reverb just barely to tuck the vocal back just a hair. I don’t like it when the vocal is too far in front and a very small reverb helps with that.
100% agree 👍
Super helpful video, thank you
I use Berry Gordy's great trick of using two tracks of identical vocals...One dry and eq'd to accentuate the positive..And one wet and fluffy...I then mix them according to taste...Rinse and repeat. But that's just me..Great vid Raytown..Thank you.
The problem with the reverb in this example is there's too much low end. Reverb on most things, especially vocals, should have a high pass filter. Also, a slight pre-delay. Finally, don't use so much reverb. Lower the mix knob. I prefer reverb, as long as it's used properly.
I always use a small reverb with heavy delays on it. It sounds more pleasant to me. It gives a similar effect as this but to me more subtle.
I believe that abuse of reverb and upper mid boost on vox is a legacy derived from old school masking of pitchy singers.
Nevertheless....listening to this (percieved) "dry" vocal reminds me of the sad fact that auto-tune has ceased being a 'special' effect and is now considered as basic necessity to engineers as EQ and volume. Am I wrong?
I really hate auto tune. If someone can’t sing they shouldn’t unless they’re performance fits the material, but don’t just polish turds because there are many more deserving dedicated singers who need the job 😁
@Daryl SKYTZO Willis I sort of agree with that but would add that some great classic songs have pitchy singers, but it works because a lot of times it's in contrast with a lush composition and it gives it character.
I suspect if that style ever resurfaces and trends, you'll have natural perfect pitch vocalists being _de-tuned_ with a plug-in called the _Louie Armstrong-izer_ 😆
@Daryl SKYTZO Willis Yeah I'm not a fan of auto tune, but my fear is not who it's putting out of work but that it's "reconditioning" the average listener.
I'm fully aware that in Mozart's day there were those who still considered the piano cheating; They called it a "harp playing machine".
Sinatra sang flat, Diana Ross sang sharp, but arguably, that was what made them distinctive but more importantly it made them relatablly human.
If auto tune was restricted to a particular type of music I wouldn't have a problem.
But now it's standard practice in country music mixes of all things. Nashville once had prohibition on electronic instrumentation due to it's "folk preservation" traditions, but apparently $ won the battle of it's heart and soul.
@@maxi-me I fully agree with you. Money always seems to win. People seem to prefer a payoff over the satisfaction of accomplishment from honest work. It’s called laziness.
Bro, thank you
I like your tactics , and I low key want a nice loud reverb but get up in ur face vocal like young dolph , I wonder what plugins his producers use to get that sound
I feel like this and subtle reverb is the way to go..there's so many ways you can duck the reverb so it's not overpowering and bring it in slowly on a send
That's another great option! Thanks for sharing 🙂
I use to use reverb on my rap vocals when i first started, till the first time i paid n went to real studio(really good one too) and the engineers were cool guys knew i was broke, and let me sit in on my own mix’s n learn (this was also during the beginning of daw’s which was main reason i wanted to watch, first time seeing a pro tools screen in action🤣) but ill never forget, literally the first like 2 sentences we shared talking was like ...Me: “your gonna put some reverb on me right”....engineer: NO, you dont want to do that youll drown yourself out”....then they proceeded to teach me how to sparingly use delay to get same effect, but BETTER...and ive never looked back lol, this vid took me back to that moment
i should use slap back delay more instead of reverb on vocals
I also like to duplicate the track and bus one of the tracks to a reverb so you keep it full as well in your face but also have the wetness of the reverb the way you can control the amount of reverb you don't just slap it on the track
I find reverb can muddy up a lot of mixes both live and recorded.?I like to use a few other tricks like a quick slap back, with a minimal repeat. I also like to actually double up the vocals with just enough left and right separation. This trick works great especially if you’re dealing with a not great singer 😂 as it can save both the singer and the mix as it will sound similar to a stereo chorus effect. That leads me to my last trick I can use both live and during mixing and that is a tasteful amount of chorus.
Brilliant. simply Brilliant.
I agree 100%. I hate reverb on vocals. The detail in the midrange gets smeared and blurry. It's like the difference between recording vocals with an SM58 versus an AKG 414. Why spend so much money on high end condenser mics, if you're just going to smear all those transients and all that midrange character with reverb. I sometimes use an ambient setting on vocals and adjust the wet/dry knob down to something like 15% for just a slight ambiance. Also, adjust the pre-delay so the reverb doesn't apply itself to every part of the vocal. I would rather have a dry vocal thats out of place, than a blurry vocal with no midrange detail. But then again, I am a weirdo.
Is there no auto-tune/pitch correction on these vocals? if not its fantastic vocals. IDK why it just sounds ever so slightly too perfect pitch wise and a bit thick
Now with the delay how do you control echoes doubling up to much and causing a kaos ?
Check out that ebook I have a link to in the description. One way is to side chain a compressor to the delay so when the vocals are active, the reverb is compressed and the volume is low. Then when no vocals are present, they increase in volume.
Other than that, try using less feedback and shorter repeat times 🤘
lower the feedback on the delay.
I been telling my audio friends this and thanks ray
nice good advice 👍🎸
Well. I would not directly call an over-autotuned and squashed vocal 'dry' but it serves the purpose of the video I guess.
Nice ttrick 👍👍
wow
What's the settings on the delay?
I do like 7% wet for rap vocals 👌🏼 ....obv u can fine tune the settings to taste, but overall amount, it really dont take much for the main vocal/verses....if im mixing singer it varies, but still not too much, im usually never over 20% wet unless im purposely over doing for performance effect
No autotune needed as well 🤷♂️
If u know how to use reverb then it shouldn't be a problem
Just sidechain the vocals.
So don't put so much reverb on the vocal
reverb is like womens makeup, less is more