Why Use Wheel Bolts??
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- Опубликовано: 18 сен 2024
- Have you ever wondered why some vehicles use bolts instead of lug nuts and studs? I have too, and I've asked the question many times to others in my career. None have given a satisfactory answer.
In this video I talk about why I suspect some manufacturers use wheel bolts instead of studs. If you don't agree, please let me know why you think some vehicles use bolts instead of studs in the comments. I'd love to put this mystery to rest.
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ETCG1
From an engineering class I took years ago, a study had been done (either VW or Mercedes) on the clamping forces variants between wheel studs/nuts combinations and wheel bolts. It was found that they were both within 2 PERCENT of the same clamping force using the same base material for the construction of each. However, the tensile strength of studs can be controlled better/more accurately than with the bolts. It came down to the costs per unit. Constructing a bolt is cheaper/more cost efficient than the separate steps of constructing a stud AND THEN a nut to fit said stud. HOWEVER. if you strip a stud or wear out the threads from failure to tighten properly, you can fairly easily repair/replace it. You strip out the bolt usually means you also strip the hub which can be an expensive repair.
You can machine a hub to accept a stud (which I have done). And can use also use better grade studs than the factory studs. Besides having a stud to hold the wheel makes it easier for you to find your nuts.
JD
jdmeaux if you have trouble finding your nuts, just have your girlfriend find them for you.
I would, but my wife shoots better than I do.
correct!
Top comment. The make an expensive luxury car and pulls that stunt which is more money for them.
If saving a few cents in manufacturing has anything to do with it, why do we see wheel bolts on Mercedes, BMW, Ferrari, etc. and studs on a friggin' KIA????
I use zip ties to hold my wheels on
I use FLEX TAPE and FLEX GLUE
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Tinfoil&bubblegum
Miata? Lol
I hope you are using the nylon ones, I have had bad luck with poly zip ties braking ;)
I like studs and nuts much better, if you break one or strip it's threads, it's replaceable.
If you strip the threads in a hub, it's buggered!!, also more expensive to replace the hub.
See i'm from europe and i think bolts are crap lol.
You can always repair a thread tho
Антон Южаков, not something i would do, helicoils and similar technology are not as good as the original thread.
Just my opinion only.
zx8401ztv how the fuck you strip one
Same here. I convert any and all cars in my possession or under my car (with permission of course) to studs and nuts.
Exactly!
Sorry to bust your bubble eric but your whole less material and lower cost theory is wrong the real reason and only reason car manufacturers do things like this is to piss me off. I see the engineers in their big offices in their fancy suits laughing to one another saying what other useless designs can we add to this vehicle to piss mrgoodbar off?.... oh i know lets use 45 different types of fastners to attach one part and make it so that 20 of them break apon removal. Yeah that ought to piss him off real good. Insert maniacal laughter 😂😂😂
mrgoodbar216! LOL! Thanks for the jocularity! I'll be smiling all day! +1
Dude you sound just like me. Got experience? How about the wiring connector group? Man why do they need all the fucking little locks they put on connectors? And how about how they like to put the little walls on both sides of their little release clip? What the fuck do they think some little grimlin is going around unhooking them? Why should uncliping an electrical connector hurt? I mean they just hurt the tips of my fingers!!!! What was wrong with GMs weatherpack connector? Didn't fall apart and was easy to release. You have no idea how much I want an engineer in a small room with a baseball bat!!!
Don't forget, that hex head you're trying to strip out WAS REALLY A TORX! Seriously, WTF manufacturers!?!?
Lmao Omg I teared up laughing at your comments. Well said guys, well said.
This is epic 😂
When I was in college, I worked as a tire installer and installed thousands of tires on all sorts of foreign and domestic vehicles. I found that not only were the bolts on European vehicles very high quality but I also never saw one ever get buggered up like the studs and nuts on some American cars. I think part of the problem is that the studs and nuts are incredibly cheap on many vehicles. The lug nuts on my Hyundai were so cheap that the outer sleeve on the lug nuts peeled apart the first time I removed a tire from my car. I replaced all of the lug nuts with solid steel acorn nuts. BTW, the steel wheels on the old Mercedes and Audis were so good that, often, I did not have to add any weight to get a perfectly balanced wheel when I installed Michelin tires.
The tool to hang wheels with wheel bolts is A F#%KING STUD. There's your answer, by the euros themselves. Studs are better, we'll even sell you one to install our wheels!
Why make me screw in a stud (by hand, BTW) to hang a wheel when it can just have them there already? It adds a step.
Plus when you have a flat tire and you're working and ground level as a non-tech, changing that tire needs to be as easy as possible. Wheel bolts are the dumbest little problem I've ever seen on a car.
As much as I agree that the bolts make wheel installation more difficult, I must say the I have never encountered a bolt on hub that had the threads stripped out or cross threaded. I have encounter many, many broken, cross threaded, and stripped out studs and lug nuts. Not saying it can’t happen, just saying it has never been an issue that I have had to deal with in the 30 years I have been wrenching on cars.
I've encountered both. Studs, you can almost always just knock them out and draw a new one in. Damaged threads in a hub? Expensive, time-consuming, pain in the ass.
I previously thought it was because the thread of a bolt is less exposed to contamination and corrosion. Now I believe Eric is right. It reduces the parts count and saves the manufacturer money.
helixworld I have no experience with studs, but with the amount of salt we toss on the roads here in denmark I could imagine that there would be more corrosion issues
Several lug nuts have caps that prevent the stud threads from being exposed.
helixworld think about post-WWII Europe and the shortages of raw materials. The lesser steel required with bolts was a win for manufacturing. Similarly the post-WWII shortages of copper was stated by "Big Clive" on his RUclips channel to be the reason behind UK (he is a Scotsman) 240 volt household electricity. Smaller conductors needed for same energy delivery.
I totally feel you on this issue. I've driven and worked on older VWs all my life (newer ones still apply to the one piece lug bolts), and wholeheartedly agree a two piece design is far more superior with clamping force. The only 'pro' I can fathom is there is less build-up of rust on a one piece bolt because less moisture can accumulate between the stud and lug nut (as you know, making them a royal bitch to get off, if seized). However the back end of the hub on a VW is also known for siezed lug bolts, too.
Funny story...I bought a SAAB for my mom. One lug bolt was missing. My nephew (a diesel tech) pointed out to me that that stud would be a bitch to change. I ordered a factory bolt from a SAAB site. Issue fixed. Bye the way, ASE master certified here and love your channel. And I'm not fond of the euro bolts too. Usually there is a plastic starter stud for the wheels in the spare tire kit...
I've tried to answer this question on my channel multiple times and the best I could find was it was a safety standard mandated by some long obscure governing body. Then it was just the way they did it from then on.
There are also manufacturing reasons - it reduces part count, which makes for some small savings along the production line if you're already set up for wheel bolts.
Nah imo they save money on manufacturing. Plus make more money in aftermarket parts. A whole gun is more expensive than a lugnut of you strip it.
It's probably another pointless regulation dreamt up by the EU to justify their existence.
Not so sure. I design industrial machinery and whenever possible we avoid putting threads into anything. It cost more money to machine the thread (labor cost) into a part then it is to buy nuts and studs. Even for a big car company the robots that would do the work of threading takes lots of time and money for the setup in comparison to just buying a stud and nut, so certainly not a savings in manufacturing.
Wheel bolts on European cars far predate the EU.
Working for an Audi dealer for 10+ years I’ve gotten used to the wheel bolts, it feels weird to take wheel nuts off now. I think wheel bolts have more variables that affect proper torquing. One huge advantage to them is that in many cases brake rotors can be replaced without taking caliper mounting brackets off, you can just simply slip the rotor out from the caliper bracket
VW products are the only ones I've found where you can get away with that trick. Worked on everything European over the years.
Im from germany and basicly half the country drives vag cars. The other half drives BMW merc and some French Italian and japanese cars. So ive worked on a few european cars and i can honestly say i didnt like how they are build mostly. One of the reasons beeing of course the bolt and stud situation. Its a fact that its easier to put a wheel on with studs. The only advantage for bolts is, you can simply take longer bolts if you want to install spacers for example.
But when you go to racetracks like the Nürburgring you see a lot of Euro cars that are converted to studs. There must be a reason for that. Or many reasons. One surely beeing that its just easier and faster to install a wheel. Especially if the car isnt on a lift where you can peek in the holes to see if you hit the hole. One reason why i like my japanese cars. Tools like you mentioned are another.
Me and a Friend needed to change the thermostat onnhis mk5 Golf GTI. It was a hideous job. Took us a good 5h. On my 00 Civic it took me not even 1h.
Vag car.... Does that refer to cars like a Bugatti, Alfa 8c 2900b, or an Edsel? Or more minivans (because they bear children)? Or possibly BMWs and Audis, because they have dicks inside them?
no its stands for volkswagen automotive group
Jan Roucka yes volkswagens like audi skoda seat and Volkswagen (obviously lol)
On my bmw took me 20 min with draining coolant untill i reassembled everything and was ready for the road. Bmw is engineered really good imo. Did a lot of repairs myself and everything makes sense.
As a German mechanic do you like plastic OR FUCKING LOVE PLASTIC EVERYWHERE ALL THE TIME.
I'm pretty sure you're right, Eric.
Also, from what I've seen on Volkswagens, the "special tool" is already in the vehicle's tool box.
I just put on the wheel, screw in the bottom bolt a couple of turns by hand and it sits. Then you can do the other bolts.
I bet, if possible, European car makers such as BMW would gladly make those bolts out of plastic. Also a plastic brake rotors and brake pads would be their ultimate goal and dream. Lol.
RestlessJack 00 and plastic windows... Plastic engine block?
I can't help but agree with your logic.
VW already use plastic intake manifolds and plastic water pumps. The factory pumps in the 1.8T are plastic and I've had one fall to pieces on me, leaving me stuck miles from home.
RestlessJack 00 🤣🤣🤣
Would that be drilled and slotted?
Never owned a mini so I haven't experienced the wheel bolt changing a tire.
I have driven a relatives pretty quick even with a slipping trans/clutch.
Thank you you just saved us from cursing and throwing tools over what? A wheel bolt.
When an action lacks obvious reason. Look to money being the motivator.
Or regulations.
@@mkshffr4936 Agreed. I've been surprised how many times the reason for certain designs and policies that didn't make much sense turned out to be the result of certain regulations.
Every day that ETCG1 posts a video is my birthday 🎂 and I prefer lugs and studs over just bolts because if you cross thread a lugnut, you change one lug and one stud. You cross thread a lug bolt and you nearly have to replace the whole hub. From a home gamer position lug studs and nuts are better.
I prefer lug nuts. Just make more sense.
usmale47374 ah givus better than that. "my preference makes more sense" is not robust debate. I've never had a car with studs, just bolts. I go along with the arguments for bolts above of better mating surface between wheel and brake disc, cheaper to produce and I'll add easier to replace (if needed). Wheel Bolts seem less likely to deform from over tightening. You'd need to be three handed gorilla to snap the bolt, even on that mini.
Studs and nuts are my recommendation.
If you ruin the thread in the bolted wheel flange, you are obligated to install a larger fastener after drilling and re-tapping the flange.
----Broken studs can be hammered out and replaced with simple tools.
---The wheels are aligned on the studs.
---If stronger studs are desired, different material studs can be inserted into the flange without modification for the desired effect.
---Different stud threads and shank lengths can be installed without modifying the hub flange.
Wheel studs have been used on automobiles and trucks for decades with generally good results. As a general rule, if a wheel falls off a car, it's because of improper installation, gross neglect, or severe overstress. Wheel bolts aren't going to correct any of that. One consideration that seems to be ignored here is... what about situations where I'm on the side of the road with a flat? Personally, I think it would be much easier (and faster!) to get the spare wheel installed if I were dealing with studs rather than nuts.
Personally, I think Eric the Car Guy is dead on the money... bolts are cheaper, and the automakers who are using them are telling the public that bolts are 'better' in order to hide the fact that it's a cost-cutting measure.
Guns Cars and Digits that's what I was looking for. That said they're not that common on European cars. I think just the Fords that we both get and maybe some of the Mazdas
In the engineering community, there's a lot of foolish argument around what choices to make. For example, Concentrated Solar Power plants. Everybody wants to make electricity with them. I say, make chemical fuels. The engineering community recognizes that the chemical fuel choice has a lot of inefficiency in it because we use 30% efficient engines. But, they just want to constantly do more and more, without considering whether or not it really simplifies human life. It's a shame.
My old FIAT 124 Spider had bolts affixing the wheels and pins extending from the hubs to locate the wheels when removing or replacing them. I really liked that system; tire changes were much easier compared to studs when the car was on jack stands instead of a service lift. The MINI in this video looks like a pain no matter what height, though.
I have worked with cars for about two years in Norway. Until now i didn't know that some cars had lug nuts instead of bolts, this would make my life much more easier.
You know as a automotive mechanic that does make the most sense thanks
The same way you were "amazed" when you saw wheel bolts instead of studs I was also like "what the heck" when I saw nuts and studs on a Japanese vehicle I worked on. It's just a habit and a different design and I find it no problem to get the wheel on the hub that required bolts. Cheers! Edit: Also, they tend not to rust like studs and threads that are exposed.
Couple of things in response to that. I wasn't 'amazed' so much as disappointed. I was amazed that they would make it more difficult to mount a wheel the first time I saw wheel bolts. As for your rust comment, many lug nuts have caps that prevent moisture intrusion and corrosion.
Thanks for your input!
ETCG1 Thank you for your reply. I know that you were not amazed, hence the quotation marks. Good luck with the Mini!
ETCG1 a lot of those caps though, namely ford and Dodge for the most part, but I’ve seen almost every brand do it, they swell up. Meaning you have to buy yet another tool to take them off, just like you do these. So either way it seems to be a no win situation. Having learned how to work on cars at an Audi dealer before I came to the shop I’m at now, I don’t mind the studs. Installing a wheel is installing a wheel in my mind.
I've worked with both, there is only one difference i've seen aside from trying to get the wheel up (which I made my own tool for, bought a bolt, cut the head off and welded the shaft from another bolt onto it) is the amount of rust/corrosion between the two. It seems to me, that the bolts don't have as many problems with corrosion living in Michigan. I've snapped plenty of studs from acorn lugnuts that have rusted solid onto the studs from not having hubcaps or antiseize or just not being removed enough. There is one style of acorn in particular that seems to have this issue though, and the chrome capped lugnuts that swell and require either a 20mm or .5mm sized sockets.
A good layer of anti seize seems to solve the stud and nuts problem of becoming a single unit however and is a better solution especially when combined with regular tire rotations (which we should all be doing but don't). The having to clean the mating surface people are talking about doesn't mean anything either. Both hubs/rotors will corrode over time, its metal you cant stop them, rims will do the same. The idea that you don't have to clean one over the other is nonsense, the rim has to mate to the hub/rotor no matter what holds it there, if you have 1/16in corrosion, its 1/16in corrosion, no matter bolts or studs, and you have to clean it.
As a former track day junkie, I installed a stud/nut kit on my JCW Mini. First, I could have a longer stud that left threads showing after tightening the bolt (a good thing on the track). Second, regarding clamping force and consistency, I found that the stud/nut combo maintained proper torque throughout the day versus the bolt, which tended to loosen, even when using bolts that had similar "heat related expansion" as the hub. Stud/nuts for me anytime over bolts.
I always figured because bolts were to easier to replace than studs and nuts when people tend to damage the threading when slipping on the wheel. But now that you really make me think about it why would the automotive industry make anything easier for DIY repair? Your answer makes more sense.
The only good thing about wheel bolts is that it's already dirt easy to install longer wheel studs. ;p
Never considered this theory, but I haven't heard any other explanation. Makes perfect sense
volvo used to have nuts and studs on their older models
So did Porsche.
Thanks for the "super-special" birthday wishes. For whatever it is worth, I believe that the "Why lug bolts?" question is a bit less complicated and intriguing than it has been made out to be. The significant differences between a bolt and the stud/nut approach are: 1. The threaded area/intersection with the nut/stud is on the "outside" -- with the bolt it is on the "inside" (with respect to the wheel attachment "plane"). Therefore, although the threaded area gets plenty of road salt and grunge and so forth, even when a bolt it used, it gets less than the stud/nut -- particularly if there is no hubcap covering the wheel fastening. Never-seez gets washed away less quickly when not on the outside, as it is with stud/nut. 2. There is a sense in which, done right, the hole in the wheel into which the bolt is inserted to get to the threads in the axle "hub" can be "piloting" -- that is to say the hole in the wheel can "guide" the bolt threads somewhat into perpendicularity /alignment with the threads in the hub. Because fine threads should be used (separate subject, but similar reason all gear pullers have fine threads) the threads can possibly be cross-threaded -- helping alignment before starting is a good thing.
So, although studs/nut are in some sense easier -- because you can hang the wheel on them and then tighten it onto the hub -- the bolts work out functionally a bit better over time. Most of the manufacturers that use bolts (VW, Audi) make an effort to have a small centering area in the middle of the wheel (around the bolt head going into the half-shaft). With a little practice, the wheel can be put on that and held in with one hand while the first bolt is put in, making it not that much harder than with studs. (And wheels/tires can be held up and bolted on, etc.) So the thought, by no means the worst one in these mostly really poorly engineered cars that are designed for the sake of the assembly line and saving micro-pennies on cheap wiring strategies and on plain steel fasteners where one small bit of stainless would be a lot less likely to rust and rot and and and and , is that on balance having the threads be in better shape over time is worth the relatively small hassle of putting on the wheel/tire.
As noted, it isn't really a question of tension applied. Want more tension? --use a bigger fastener/fastening. It isn't really a question of ""parts count" -- making up a hub with studs isn't that different from making a hub with threaded holes.
As to other arguments, you can heli-coil threads into a hub in an emergency. Hubs themselves aren't that hard to change with the right tools, etc. The question is whether, overall, there is less sorrow and trouble with the bolt approach and, particularly without high-quality old-fashioned hubcaps, fewer things actually go wreckish with the bolts.
The best answer i got from my mechanic was that the wheel mounting surface is much easier to clean in order for the wheel to sit on the break disk and hub firmly. This is actually a good idea if you wanna drive at high speeds which is the case on the german autobahn.
I've heard this too, but I have special attachments that clean hubs around studs quite easily.
ETCG1 oh ok i shouldve figured that a special tool exists exactly for that purpose. I live in germany and im thinking the germans should know this too right? Especially mechanics 😄 anyway thanks for answering
That is very true.
wysetech2000 I agree. Sometimes I clean that part of a rotor a few times a week. Sometimes cars need a clean up for a "perfect" surface to be straight on.
I had heard that and something about fear of cracking the hubs from the tension from the pressed in stud. I've seen both studs and bolts shear off before a hub cracked.
I do agree the bolt vs stud and nut is a pain to reinstall a wheel, and deductive reasoning seems logical. 👍
LMFAO. I've always said that about DAMN wheel bolts. WE ALL HAVE A BEEF W/SAID WHEEL BOLTS.
I think you are spot on, here they call it ‘value engineering’ in our factory build I caught them ‘value engineering’ a lot of stuff out that is going to make maintenance harder in the long run.
Actually it is not just European cars, older American cars used them as well, my ‘53 Buick has them as did my ‘57 Plymouth, both of those cars had an alignment pin on the hub for easy installation. I actually think it is a good design because the threads are inside the hub & stay like new, these always come out with your fingers after the first couple turns, even on ancient old wrecks... I also had an ‘81 Mazda RX-7 that used them.
Owning a Mini myself, and all my friends owning Euro cars, wheel bolts are all I've ever known in the 5 years I've worked on cars. It wasn't until I changed a tire on my Mom's CX-5 a couple months ago that I encountered studs. Studs are by far overall easier. However I've done wheel bolts for so long that I don't really have an issue with them either. Like you said, I think it's cost of production on one part versus two.
In the event that Murphy's Law applies double at minimum wage paying tire shops, I prefer more complete and cheaper to replace wheel studs. I mentally categorize wheel bolts with side post batteries, Pinto gas tanks, 2003 6.0L Power Stroke engines, and Ford's concentric slave cylinders.
You can easily change the wheel bolts if you get thicker rims, than change your studs. For example: alloy wheels in summer and steel wheels in winter. Long bolts in summer and short bolts in winter. Also there are no exposed threads to rust.
Wheel bolts were a bad idea 90 years ago when Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth used them.
I think you hit the nail on the head with this one. Money and "Just because".
as a european i also would prefer lugnuts and studs, but another reason european manufacturers put wheelbolts on cars is so it's easier to switch to a different length wheelbolt when using different wheels which might requier using a longer bolt. i own a midengined porsche, and for the standard 17" wheels it comes with the bolt is shorter than if i was using the optional 911 gt3 wheels, which requier wheelspacers sobthey don't scrub in the wheelhousing. a bolt is easier to replace than a stud, so i guess that's another reason.
Best argument yet.
I have a bmw and rim setup is that i need longer bolts for one set, but shorter for another, and i change them every season, so. yeah
So another one for the simpler/cheaper/easier manufacturing.
Makes good sense.
If american cars are simple, its reliable, if european are simple, they are pieces of shit, if i got everybody right?
Boz 2011
It's not the simple wheel bolts that are at issue. It's the $6,000 bill you get to replace the relays in the convertible top on your Audi A4.
It's the steering wheel clock spring that need to be replaced at $600 for the traction control and abs to work.
It's the battery being placed directly above the junction box for all the under hood wiring that ends up requiring a new harness because battery acid. All battery's with lead terminals will leak. Lead is porous.
Rube Goldberg would be proud of some of the stuff Auto makers are doing now.
Give me a first gen golf and I'll show you a simple cheap reliable car.
Actually, most electrical issues could be solved in all moders cars by going to carbon contacts in relay's and switch's. Self cleaning, handles arcing well, and life span beyond most people.
Eric... I was writing your exact explanation.... I think you're right-on.... it's a manufacturing decision not a design decision.
Studs and nuts every time, they provide better clamping force and are cheaper and easier to replace than a stripped hub, moreover they don't require the use of fake studs to get the wheel hung and lined up.
The premium German cars are now designed for people that wouldn't know how to change a wheel, they lease the car for three years and then sign a new lease, just when all the cheap plasticky parts start to fail.
They're not even designed to be towed when they break down.
I griped about it for about a week when I worked at Volvo but then it just becomes all the same, I don't know if I prefer it, but it does make cleaning the hub for brake rotors when they get rusty. The way I have found best to install the wheel is to put one bolt through with a deep socket on top of it, hold that with your thumb as you grab the spokes and lift it up and hold woth one hand while using the socket to thread the bolt with the other
I think they do it because it's simpler and cheaper as well. You were nice about it, but the unusual moments where I deal with these versus normal lug nuts, I don't think it's as safe. Sure they have a tool to make it easier for the wheel to not fall off the moment the wheel bolts are out. I actually always think about it. Does this car have enough rust to help hold the wheel on to make this easier? Just enough to hold it in place is awesome. Any more than that and they are way harder to remove then rusty traditional wheels and studs.
That "special tool" is in the trunk of the car you're working on. It's a metal rod with a plastic piece toward one end. You jab it in a wheel bolt hole, then mount the wheel on the hub using the tool to hold the wheel up while you get your bolts started. Once you have a couple bolts in you can just yank the tool out and finish the rest of the bolts. You can get one in a junkyard for $1, it's amazing how "mechanics" never seem to know what this is for.
Eric hit the point here. European car makers tend to make vehicles A: cheaply (lots of plastic parts) and B:overly complicated as possible, so that when (not if) those parts fails, youd have to go to the stealership.
And American carmakers *don't* make their vehicles cheaply? I've spent the last 10 years driving Chrysler-built Jeeps (a 1993 ZJ, a 2002 WJ and 2005 KJ) and they're *full* of cheap plastic parts.
You kidding me? American cars are the worst quality vehicles I have ever seen. American cars are exotic to us in Europe, and I thought they were cool AF. But then I went to the States, and boy was I wrong.
RestlessJack 00 or buy $3,000 worth of specialty tools if you want to do it yourself..... Stupid manufacturers
I have both: an old Pontiac with studs and lug nuts, and a VW Jetta with wheel bolts. Removing and replacing the wheels on the Pontiac is much easier. Another issue with the wheel bolts is, if you don't have brake rotor retention screws, it makes wheel installation even more difficult. Because now you have to line up the bolt holes in the wheel, the brake rotor, and the hub. Whereas with wheel studs, you can hang the rotor and the wheel on the studs, and run the nut down. Easy!
Put a cool name on it. Build it like $#@t and overcharge the poor soul that buys it.
He Eric, in the toolkit is the plastic tool to put the wheel on. So no need to buy it it's there. Enjoying the videos.
Y Yes it is my Birthday today :)
JimmyFizzy happy birthday
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HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!
Remember the early 5 lug VW Bugs, very easy to strip the threads out of the drum. I ran many VW off road cars and we always put studs into the drums. The drums on the VW were not thick enough to hold with more than 3 threads. I am surprised I did not see more street VW's with wheel bolt problems. The problem came when the wheel was over torqued or hit with a load from the side. Very possible to pull all the threads out on those early 5 lug drums.
your probably right.... but I think European cars do strange things just to be difficult and sell tools.... multi level marketing.....
I think you are bang-on with it being cheaper/simpler for the manufacturer using wheel bolts VS studs.
If cost is the reason they would just pass it on to the consumer... it's at most a few bucks that could be added to the price of the vehicle so I would think it's a negligible... I'm sure there's some technical scientific reasoning behind it
1 USD per car still makes a million USD if you make a million cars
At certain OEMS (if not all) engineers get a cookie for saving the company money. Have also seen annual 'cost reduction' goals for entire engineering departments for a given year. Cost reduction metric is sometimes used in performance reviews that may affect bonuses.
business is all about cost reduction. you have to stay competitive and can't pass everything on to the consumer!
Carl percentage is what matters.
Rewind back to the early 90's, 30 cents saved the Chrysler LH platform. LH being Intrepid, Vision, and LHS. Even the Plymouth Prowler shared drive train components. $10-15k car in the day and less than $1 saved it for being scrapped.
Cost savings makes a lot of sense, I think it's easier to keep a thread clean if it's a bolt going into the hub than studs and nuts, plus it looks cleaner to just have bolts as newer cars have the wheel bolts exposed.
My '75 BMW has nuts and studs and a chrome cover, but my 87 has bolts and no cover.
Bolt = less unsprung weight and rotating weight?
Saving a few grams on wheels really shows in terms of performance and economy, way more than removing the same amount elsewhere. A heavier wheel needs more energy to accelerate and brake and you need better suspension to deal with the forces.
Also Compact size: the bolt goes right into the brake rotor and doesn’t stick out so you have more space for brake/suspension components or steering angle.
I guess lugnuts are more foolproof and American companies don’t want to get sued if someone’s wheel came off because they just hand-screwed the nut on and never touched it for 10 years. :-)
How much do you think a stud and lug nut actually weigh? Do you think that amount is significant enough to effect unsprung weight in any significant way?
Also, it's more than possible to design a lug nut and stud set up to be compact and not protrude any more than a bolt would.
Any extra gram on a wheel is significant. There's a good reasons people spend a lot more for slightly lighter wheels.
Nut and lug nut style holds the wheel from both sides, bolt only from one but the shaft on a bolt will be a bit thicker. It's possible to engineer anything but at a cost and car manufacturers and customers don't like that. Try putting the same tires on normal rims and then on lightweight performance rims that don't weight that much less on a scale. You'll feel a significant difference in ride comfort, braking, cornering and accelerating. Or just put the lighter wheels on one side and feel how the whole car feels unbalanced and wants to rotate towards the heavier wheels, best done with an old car without stability control.
Bolts are simple and get the job done, just don't over-torque or them. :-)
not that i disagree with you eric, but it's not just unsprung weight, it's ROTATING mass. The effect of rotating mass can significantly impact acceleration and braking if it's significant enough (for example, putting 33" + tires on a jeep makes a very noticeable difference). Now, that's a sorta extreme example, but in the age where the car builders are trying to scrape every tinyest fraction of fuel economy to meet government reg's, it could be just enough to get by. It probably still boils down to cost in the end though
You wouldn't be suggesting it's a weight thing if you picked up one of the factory wheels from my A6. I haven't actually weighed them or had the tires off, but going by feel, they are quite possibly the heaviest alloy car wheels I've ever handled(And I used to be a mechanic, so I've hoisted my share of wheels), probably heavier than steel wheels actually. And even just looking at them they clearly weren't designed to be light. I wouldn't be surprised if they weigh 25+ lbs, aftermarket wheels in the same size could get that weight under 20 lbs per wheel. The weight difference spared from using bolts over studs is likely a fraction of a pound by comparison to the 20+ lbs that could have been spared by using a lighter wheel design.
"Saving a few grams on wheels really shows in terms of performance and economy,"
A: No. A couple grams would be too little for a measurable improvement for either. B: They have to make the hubs much thicker in order to cut enough threads into them. Stud type hubs are way thinner.
Thanks for the birthday shoutout Eric! This birthday has been even more super special than usual, so I appreciate that
Happy Birthday!
Thanks man!
In my opinion, I feel the wheel bolt design is better. The reason why is that once you get used to it, it's easier to get the wheel on than a studded setup. Here is how: lift the wheel and place it on the hub ring. After the wheel is sitting on the hub ring, just rotate the wheel until the wheel holes line up and just screw in the wheel into the hub. I find this overall easier than the traditional design. With the traditional design, you have to make sure to align every hole or else the wheel won't go on. With the bolt design, you just have to place it on the hub then rotate wheel as needed.
Also, wheel bolts allow you to easily get longer bolts for different offset and spacer setups.
BoostCTRL easier said than done when your rotor decides to turn with the wheel when aligning the bolt holes. I still do love my audi though
OK, what if the wheel weights 60lbs and you have to balance it against the hub while you fiddle for the bolt? Now let's add that the rotor screw is missing and the brake rotor is not lined up with the holes when you go to mount the wheel. How is this easier than hanging that same 60lb wheel on some studs?
I'm not knocking your preference, you're perfectly entitled to that, but to me, bolts seem more difficult to deal with.
Enginehead99, that's exactly what I was going to say.
Eric, looking to the hub and those cheap fasteners which always rust up make it so if there's any age to the car, you're guaranteed as a flat rate tech to lose money instead of make money. I'm talking about the rotor being aligned by the crap torx bolt.
Studs are way easier, especially with weight involved. You have to press the wheel into one place with one arm while you hope to thread the wheel bolt, which may or may not be lined up.
ETCG1 They can be more difficult to deal with just as you explained in your example, but I know at least my car comes with that pin bolt to assist with mounting in my emergency kit with the tire iron and cap puller, making the difference negligible to me as I don't have to go out of my way to buy a special tool. Not sure why I've seen wrecked studs but no wreck wheel hubs, so I guess there's that anecdotal evidence in favour of bolts.
If my truck had bolts instead of studs I would hate it. 35 inch tires and steel wheels make it a pain to lift and get lined up and on the studs, but I don't see how it would even be possible with bolts unless you had 2 guys.
Thanks for the bday wish, I agree with you 100 on this topic. Anyone who needs proof can watch the hoonigan channel.
European engineers are just weird in my book: wheel bolts, Torx everything, oil filters that stick up with a housing - I don’t know.
I’m thinking it’s just how the markets matured and that things are just how they are - kinda like Americans and our cubic inches, push rods and engineering goofiness.
Still weird though...
You do know that most design houses are born and curated by Europeans, right?
Bolts suck in this particular setup, and should be replaced, but i can explain the Torx, by saying that it's best to distribute force in factory installation. IE, it's an easy way to speed up production line as Torx bits don't slip out of Torx heads like flat or Philips bits and heads respectively, do.
What the hell dude, torx is one of the best solutions
I actually like torx. It's just you have to have a wide array of bits and screwdrivers that bothers me. I have yet to strip a non rusty torx no matter what size
Sweet Christ Alive I hate torx. Anything more than wrist tight and they're itching to rip the heads off themselves. The 90s Peugeot diesels nearly make up for it though.
And GM! My 2004 Corvette C5 has some Torx bolts and screws. Had to go buy some torx head sockets and screw drivers at Lowe's just to work on the pop up headlights, take the door panels off, and adjust a new T top roof. I honestly do like Torx screws more because they are harder to damage
Eric, it’s my birthday and I’m glad it’s super special!!!
Happy Birthday!
Simple. Because Europe.
It probably has to do with the history of wagon wheels. Everyone knows those were held on with lug nuts in the America's, owing to the distance of service centers on the Oregon Trail.
They use it to prevent thread damage when installing and removing your wheels. Thats the main reason. Cost is second .
The Dutch Garage neither is a sufficient reason for such an awful design.
Will_Powell That may be, but still that is the reason. And it isn't that bad.
And ironically you're more likely to cross-thread a bolt into a hub, than a nut onto a stud.
Teribus13 That is true, but i can't remember it ever happened to me. But the can be rusted shut!
I have yet to see a stud damaged because of removing or installing a wheel, even after years of use.
I think you’re exactly correct! Both on the clamping force of a stud and a nut over a bolt, and also the cost savings.
I also heard the opinion that they did it just to fuck with us, but I could be wrong;)
i think its because you are damaging the threads of the studs slightely everythime you put a wheel off and on.(alltough it's not a real issue in reality)
You don't do that with bolts...
Carl Ben no, just... no.
Where the hell did you come up with that logic?
Sure you do when you scrape over the threads with the wheel.
The only time I see damaged threads on studs is when someone crossthreads a lug nut. I've never seen studs worn on a vehicle because of taking the wheel on and off. Even after more than 50 years.
Carl Benz what your damaging on a stud and nut setup is when you take off the nut with a gun. Since no socket can perfectly mesh you put more pressure on the points of a lug nut, swelling them up. Stud threads generally don't get fucked up
How often do lug bolts get cross threaded, over torqued, stuck vs lug nuts and studs? The answer to your question may lie there.
engineers are not mechanics and don't think much beyond the design phase
Wow I've been watching ETCG1 for years now and I finally got one on my birthday!
Happy Birthday!
Sounds about right have a nice day etcg
I use a long crosshead screwdriver through the wheel hole to line it up with the hub. You can easily replace streched bolts if some person has put them on with an impact gun. I use a torque wench to get tighten up bolts or nuts.
Hey, it IS my birthday! Thanks a bunch!
damage to the thread is caused with repeated tyre/tire changes when a hub has lugs. This doesn't occur with bolts and they are easier and cheaper to change.
Yes Eric I'd say you were nearly 100% right with your assumption I also think it's probably because if the thread gets messed up it's easier to repair a threaded hole and replace a bolt than it is to press out a messed up stud and press back in the new 1
When was the last time you had a snapped wheel bolt?
When the wheel seizes to the hub and rotor, bolts are better for breaking the seize
Tnx for your very special birthday wishes! It's actually today!
Happy Birthday!
He has answered he questioned perfectly.
Some good points have already been raised. Another benefit of bolts vs nuts is the size of the head (aesthetics). A smaller head isn't as obtrusive to the look of the wheel. MB uses 17mm heads and some are even smaller (Smart uses 15mm). There's no way to use lug nuts this small because the studs would be too weak. Nuts and studs do give more even/consistent clamping force, but for something as basic as holding a wheel on a hub, bolts are more than good enough. In my experience, the bolts (the ones MB uses, at least) are much stronger than the studs used on most American/Japanese cars (not that they couldn't make stronger studs). On the basis of cost. Not only are they probably cheaper to make, there's also a lot less labor to assemble everything (you save the step of pressing in the studs). Every little bit adds up (how many people does it take to press in 20+ studs on every car a manufacturer makes?) And I think we're all forgetting the most important reason the Germans do so many things differently: they can!
If you do the wheel on the ground you can press the center cap with your knee and easily screw if the bolts. It is however, easy to screw up the center caps which are often poorly glued on.
when changing brake disks/drums it is easy to accidentally hit the studs and damage the thread, using bolts solves that problem, also it is easier to use wire wheel to clean the hub before installing a new disk when there are no studs.
i would say you hit the nail on the head with your reasoning. just FYI, the reason studs and nuts generally have higher clamping forces in engine blocks is due to the type of material the studs and nuts are made from.
stock bolts are torque to yield most often, they are as cheap as they can get away with. they dont have a lot of extra strength to contain high power builds.
my guess why the standard in racing is studs and nuts apposed to high strength bolts is serviceability. you strip the stud, its easier to replace and wont compromise the strength of the engine block. if you stripped the threads in the block with a bolt, you have to drill and put some sort of workaround in that can create weak spots.
On my birthday, I watch all your videos. Thank you
I'm glad you asked the question and was also curious why the European tires have a more flexible sidewall and what tools would help changing them by hand.
I owned a '49 Plymouth Deluxe that not only had wheel bolts, but they were left-hand threads on one side and right-hand threads on the other. Old cars are great projects if you have the time and the money for the project.
Your right it saves money and time for the manufacturer.
I agree, cost is always the reason. The reason first gen Neons didn't have the option for power windows in the rear.
100% Agreed With Your Reason of Cost. Stated to there stock holders "we saved you more this year" dividend please !
Question is WHY NOT use bolts. As you said, more simple and cheaper solution that allows using different spacers and rim thicknesses. Taking the wheels off and putting them on is not that much different compared to nuts. Just requires a different technic.
Pretty sure you are spot on.
Hey Eric, apparently it is because german automaker want you to be able to clean the hub as good as possible when you remove the wheel. This way, you get a very clean surface and at «supersonic» speed on the autobahn, there is no vibration at all that could eventually cause the nuts/bolts to become loose and to lose a wheel. Cheers
Since it is my birthday, thank you for the super special wishes
Happy Birthday!
Happy Birthday.
You ARE.right! I just bought studs for vw golf..and lug nuts ..thank you Eric😎
I had heard the Porsche first started using the bolts because when you press the studs into the hub flange it distorts somewhat. That distortion led to vibrations at high speeds. I don’t know that as fact seems like another logical reason.
I worked at Volkswagen of Chattanooga they do this for the fact it saves time on the assembly line all 4 bolts and the tire are put on with a Machine that assist the operator to install in all at once remember you only have 60 seconds to put your part on and you have to do both wheels on the side of the car you are stationed at.
Exactly my point. Not to mention you're saving time by not having to press studs into a hub, or make a lug nut.
I had a similar issue with my dirt bike the back wheel axle. Hold the main bolts while screwing in the nut. You have a choice embedded threads or external threads using the nut
Bolts allow using different type of wheels with winter and summer tires. At least in some countries studs are not allowed to come out from wheels more than a couple of millimeters, so with studs you either must use similar wheels with both tires or change studs twice a year. With bolts it is just using different bolts during winter and summer time.
Why would you not use similar wheels? Doing so just makes sense.
Most of the time alloy wheels are used for summer tires and steel rims are used for winter tires. Salt used to keep the roads de-iced will mess up alloy rims.
It's to separate the vertical loads on the wheels from the clamping force on the bolts. On a wheel using bolts, the center of the hub that sticks out into the center part of the rim handles all the vertical loads the wheel encounters while the bolts simply provide the clamping force, which provides a more mechanically sound connection since the bolts only have to deal with loads along the length of the bolt (clamping force). On a wheel using studs and nuts, the studs and nuts need to both support the vertical loads on the wheel and provide the clamping force, which means the studs need to deal with both loads along the length of the stud (clamping force) and horizontal shear forces from handling the vertical loads on the wheel.
I have worked for Mercedes Benz for 21 years and have had this discussion with engineering and the statement I got from them was just tradition and they didn't want to change
Yea I know they can be a pain in the BUTT. I have a 1954 Dodge Fargo 1/2 ton that has bolts in the rear tires. But wait, They are not just bolts, They are LEFT hand thread to boot. Now that is a double pain. Love your videos. Keep them coming.
Germany has a overall length that studs can stick out. If you change your wheels from stock the studs will be too short or too long. But with bolts you can just change out the bolt for a longer or shorter bolt and get a perfect fitment.