British Military Sabre Instruction - Cut 1 and 2

Here's another video in our Roworth's "Art of Defence on Foot" series this time going over cuts 1 and 2. It should cover the basics of these two cuts in the first section of cutting against the target. We'll see you next week for cuts 3 and 4.

[@palmer3977]

Wow it hard to believe that the force from those small movements would be enough to fatally cut someone in combat.

[@thecount5558]

Is it normal to feel quite hesitant when doing cut 1 (or in my case, cut 2, since I'm left handed)? I have a tendency to constantly mind my swinging of the blade as I feel I may hit the inside part of my body when doing the moulinet. Doing it with a blunt bolo/gulok also forces me occasionally to change my grip due to the point heavy blade.

[@EspadaNegra]

I won't lie there is a degree of getting used to it and controlling the blade as you whirl it back into guard. When I first started, just take it slow and go step by step until you don't have to think about it. While on this stage avoid passing the sword so close to you but rather circle it in front of you. It will take some time to fully be able to control it with the correct grip, but overall switching grips as demonstrated does help in controlling the sword as you cut and recover. I do have a lefty in the club as well but the same principle is applied by both left and right handed fencers all around.

[@FiliiMartis]

I see that Roworth's "Art of Defence on Foot" (2nd edition) was printed in 1798 (thank you, Nick Thomas and AHF for the free resources). Now, it took some time for the system to develop, by him and others. What is the earliest time and earliest sword that would fit into this system (i.e. military sabre)? I would think that this was already present at the time of the Jacobite Rebellion (so 1715). Is there a consensus, or plausible date?
P.S. If you follow the link from my channel, you will see the two swords (pallasch and sabre) I mentioned to you a while back.

[@EspadaNegra]

If we're looking into earlier swords that can fit into the system, pretty much anything can. Hangers, cutlasses, mortuary hilts, as well as broadswords who predate the first patterns that came in 1796 (which obviously do fit into the system). If we look into any other broadsword sources the same principle could be applied to some extent. If they were used by the time this system came into effect, I doubt it because they would need to be up to military standards so to speak. Hope that answers the question.

[@FiliiMartis]

@@EspadaNegra "Hope that answers the question." Not quite, but I think I've posed the question in a wrong way. I'll simplify it and spit it into two parts.
1. What is the oldest (pre-regulation) sabre that we would recognise as a military sabre? Let's stick to British or related to it, let's keep hangers and cutlasses out, and the years can be approximate. So I just look at it and go, ah, a British sabre!
2. When do we see the start of military sabre as a fencing/fighting system? Again, let's stick to British and the years can be approximate.
I'm asking this because as far as I know, we had sabres in used way before the 1796 regulations, and thus I assume dedicated fighting systems existed before as well. Btw, it's fine if we don't know. It's also fine if people don't consider anything pre 1796 to be part of military sabre and use that year as a proverbial line in the sand.
For me, the entirety of 1700 is a blur. Simplifying things, the 1500s are the years of the sideswords and Italian Wars, the 1600s are the times of the Thirty Years War and religious wars where we see rapiers and rapier hilts even on broad blades, and we also see mortuary swords and the like. The 1800s are the times of military sabres, without a doubt. But 1700? We have hussars in the East, so that's military sabre. But in the West? Even when I go to Wiktenauer, the list of 18th century fencing masters has only two names. So when do we go from mortuary swords and the like to sabres hilts and sabre fighting systems? That's what I'm trying to figure out, because in Britain, this either started way before we (I) typically think about it, or really late compared to the rest of Europe.

[@EspadaNegra]

So I went ahead and talked with Nick about this, mostly because I can't trust myself seeing as I'm recovering from surgery to be able to formulate thoughts clearly. First we need to understand that sabres themselves and the way they evolved so to speak, and then used wasn't something new. Swords may have looked somewhat different to many others that came before. The long curved sabre blades with relatively compact hilts derived from the hussar and light cavalry trends sweeping across Europe. Britain’s first ever light cavalry regiment was formed in 1759 and used a simple cavalry sabre that we could consider the first. However, basket hilt broadswords and sabres were considered the same family of weapons and taught and used the same. Even the terms were often used interchangeably for both weapons.
Therefore the style used with, for example, the 1796 pattern swords was not brand new, but in a long lineage of back/broadsword (think of Angelo's posters, or any broadsword tradition for that matter, etc). Some new language and teaching methodology was introduced around this time, and the swords began to take on their sabre like appearance drawing heavily from Hungarian, Polish and Austrian cavalry swords mostly.
So, the 1700s was a period of basket hilt swords as well as many double shell military swords. The change from basket hilt swords like the Mortuary and dragoon type hilts did not happen overnight, but the transition began in the 1750s, and by the 1790s was largely complete, as the last cavalry type basket hilt was the 1788 heavy dragoon model.
Remember that a lot of this terminology is very modern as well, like with anything hema related we always try to find umbrella terms for each sword and where they would fit best inside said category. In Britain in the 18th century, sabres and basket hilts (broadswords) were the same thing, just one began to become more fashionable than the other. The trend across Europe was also very similar with Walloon and Schiavona, haudegen etc type swords being popular in the early 18thc, and what we would recognise as sabres becoming extremely popular from around the mid 18thc onwards.

[@FiliiMartis]

Thank you for this well framed answer, and get well soon! Indeed, this is what I was looking for. So starting with about 1750 we see sabres being adopted in Britain. And 1796 (i.e. introduction of regulation patterns) should be seen as the finishing line for a process, not the start (an important shift in perspective; it makes sense now that I think about it, you make something a regulation when you know what you want to stick with).
I guess between the time of the rapier and the time of the sabre, in simple terms, I should think of the basket hilt period. You are right about the names' problem. Backswords, broadswords and basket-hilts were used in the period in a certain context, which is why my brain did not group them together. But now, I'll just think of them all as basket-hilts, with the shell-guards Walloon, Mortuary swords and the like being a subset. It's simpler like that. I'll probably revisit this decision, but for now it suffices as a mental place-holder.
P.S. And a bonus thanks! This is the first time I ever hear of Haudegen. I mean, I saw them before, but I was never exposed to the name itself. And here I thought I heard of all sword names in the European area. 😄