Is this Box Overfilled by 2020 NEC Code?
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
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Been in this trade 11 years I am a licensed electrician and still love your videos for the simple fact it keeps it fresh on your mind and I wish I found you or the channel electricianu when I was starting out. You would have helped my career tremendously back then. Great work sparky
I appreciate that! Thanks so much!
@@SparkyChannel No problem sir. Thank you and keep up the amazing work! We need to inspire and help the next generation grow into this trade because our numbers are low and not as many people are joining our trade.
As an electrician, I can say, you are very thorough sir, I applaud your knowledge and appreciate you taking the time to show in the code book too. If I have any questions in the future I will seek out your videos first!
Love how you go back and forth with code
Thanks!
The apprentices you taught were very fortunate to have you as a mentor/instructor! Your chosen RUclips format is genius; start off with a rough in example of something one will see out in the field and then dissect it according to the NEC which you clearly reference and show. It is extremely simple; at the same time brilliant and effective. Over the years life has taught me that the "best" in any chosen industry/discipline or trade make what they do look EASY. It is a rare find when just such a MASTER (you "Sparky") of their material is at the same time an excellent teacher. Your channel is among the best of educational material available on RUclips.
My dad talked to me one day about planning ahead. He said (paraphrasing) "If you add up all the cost for an entire house for doing it cheap vs doing it right, it's not that much difference, but the cost later is significantly higher if you do it cheap." He was referring to putting in larger boxes, spec grade devices, even running 12/2 when commonly 14/2 is used and so on. Over the years I have seen this principle prove itself time and time again. I usually don't even bother buying the smaller dimension boxes except for a very few cases. Ounce of prevention.
Your Dad is brilliant!!!
You're providing a much-needed public service! Thank you, Sparky.
Thanks Don!
I am an electrical engineer, I follow the plumbing, electrical and building codes which all continue to increase in complexity and the details. My experience is there is nothing you can put in writing that replaces COMMON SENSE and GOOD TRADE CRAFT. 9 Years ago, probably about the time emphasis was placed on overcrowding boxes, I was on a job where the electrician stripped the sheath on 3 12-2 romex, leaving 24" of wire. I watched him strip the ends connected directly to an outlet and used your yellow plastic tool with amazing skill to make 5 or 6 tight bend, using great skill, put the outlet in place and put great strain on the screws to force all the wires in the plastic box.
I asked why.... answer, that's how I was taught.
The reason for limiting the number of wires based on cubic inches and device is a combination of mechanical stress and potential overheating at max load.
In retrospect, I wish I made a video, would send it to you.
I never knew there was a calculation on how much stuff you can put into a box. I always use bought a box based on can I physically shove all of it into it. Now I know better. Thanks.
I just used this information when I decided to use up two pieces of leftover 10/2 and a piece of 12/2 for a new 20 amp GFCI circuit in a garage. The 30 cu inch box works great and left lots of room for the GFCI receptacle.
That was the most informative video I've seen on RUclips on this subject. That explains how and why of calculating box space. Two thumbs up and a high five for that!
Thanks so much!
Loved learning about that connector. Beats the hell out of wire nuts. Thank you!
You bet! Thanks Eric!
Those connectors are garbage and cause problems, I wouldn't use them
@@GrizzlyWang good to know. I'll do more research should I ever think of using. Thank you
Why are they garbage? What does the data say?
@@andrewpayne6295 I'd say they are garbage based on the minimal surface-area contact.
They may be rated for 20A, but what's the resistance at that power draw when you have a string of these? I'd also be concerned about heat-cycling that thin strip of spring metal.
I wonder if someone has put these things on a thermal camera and/or calculated resistance when passing that much current. I'd be willing to bet the wire nuts fair much better because all else being equal: resistance is a function of surface area.
I've never come across a video with this content and I'm grateful you took the time to do this. I'm a DIYer only so RUclipsrs like yourself and the content you provide are invaluable to me. Thank you for posting this one, super informative and helpful.
I always use a deep box when space allows, more space is always easier to work with.
Excellent!
You sometimes can't put in a deeper box like when putting a receptacle in a wall framed with 2x3 studs instead of 2x4s. What you may need to do is use a wider box for installing a single receptacle or switch.
I've worked the industrial side for 20 years. This material is a great refresher.
The 22 cu in boxes are definitely worth the extra 15 cents or so. Cheaper than that if you buy a case, I'm sure.
I've been using the Ideal push connectors while replacing some switches & receptacles in my home. They're quick and easy. Glad to see them on your channel. Wagos are nice, but the Ideals are quite a bit cheaper.
Thanks Doc!
Couldn't agree more. A few cents per box is trivial but well worth it.
Tried the wagos and personally don't trust them as much. I feel the wire wiggles too much and did get pulled out in an occasion or two trying to push the wire back.
This is probably the best explanation and walk through of common box fill calculations that I've seen. Thank you!
I am so glad you are back! I was worried something terrible had happened to you. Really sorry to hear about the loss of the old channel and videos. That’s such a huge loss of content. 😞 However, so glad to see you are back! The BEST channel for all things electrical!
Thanks so much! My goal is to have a great attitude about it and make it work out for the better. I really appreciate the concern and the good wishes. Bless you!
The dancing receptacle made me smile very hard while dragging myself through this homework. Thanks for all your videos we really do appreciate and love ya for them! Hope you have an amazing holiday this year!
-Cheers from an IECRM first year apprentice.-
not sure why it slashed my last response?
LOL! We had fun making that! Thanks so much!
Technology, lol!
I haven't ever seen it make a line through a comment or part of one. hmm
Bill, I love your channel and videos. No offense at all because we all have our own style and you know your shit! But your splice in that single gang box looks like my 5yr old did that. I'm pretty ocd about how my guys work and my own work looks. The work must look like it was a pro who completed the task. Anyone can just slop wires in a box. Again not that you are not a pro/master of what we do....But as instructors we as professionals need to make sure we set the example for others to go that extra mile to make sure that every box is as clean as they can possibly be. Thanks again for all the awesome videos!!!
What makes you think this guy is a "master at what we do"? Anyone who makes a box up like that with push in connectors has not been trained properly and is not a master. Dude knows code, sure. Master? Obviously not
I always feel the wire nuts or wago's are too much in this scenario, but they don't "count" anyway!? Anyway: always go deep with a gcfi/afci!
Thanks!
Yes sir if your box is to full with a GFCI then it'll cause your GFCI to have a malfunction
@
wim0104 curious as to what you think the alternative is? Thank you
@@ayeitsshane806 Care to elaborate? Is it something to do with transient voltages between conductors..? Prospective apprentice here.
@@ArkamasRoss just something i learned over my 12 years. But if you have to many wires in your box even if its up to code with box fill calculation but for some reason if its tight and pushing against your device it'll cause it to trip and not reset until its fixed
Stuffing the wires back into the box is tricky. I didn't think to stuff the wago connectors in first and leave the pigtails out. That would have made it much easier and cleaner. Sometimes when I am in awkward positions I don't think so clearly:)......Thanks for the videos!
When dealing with 12/2, I've always preferred going bigger than 'just enough'. Like having some spare room.
Especially in unairconditioned spaces, like attics, where de-rating due to heat might become an issue.
10:18 sometimes though, gotta use a 20.3 b/c of space behind the box, and can’t upsize; so know you’re good on fill, 8s key before starting, b/c last thing wanna do is do a rip-out (not rough out or rough in 😉) when inspector comes and decides to pull cover plate (if already on) and calculates fill….they’ll make ya redo, or possibly add extension, but again, if zero space ….and not possible to add bigger box, this gets tricky.
Example, adding receptacle in a wall that has concrete “framing/slab” all way to roof soffit and you need to use low profile boxes or 15.x-20.3 boxes on fill to make them “fit”, not able to cut thru concrete etc….and so, gotta really calculate that box fill b/c those inspectors will find and check, never fails😉
Cheers✌🏻
sparky sorry about your videos I learned a lot with them and I'm glad that you do more again I would like you to make a video about arc foult breaks and the different double breaks both together and separately to know when and where they should be used thanks sparky for your time and forward your number one follower greets you
Hi Luis! I'll put that on my list. Thanks and have a great weekend!
Had some trouble recently in an existing 2-gang box. One switch was a 3-way and the other was a 4-way. I replaced the old toggle switches with a Legrand paddle switch. That 4-way was really packed in there. Pretty sure it was overstuffed. I am ashamed.
Hi Jo. Have you considered changing out the 2 gang box to a larger one?
Thank you for explaining the electrical instruction. You made it easy to understand.
Thanks Jack! Have a great day!
Teaching apprentices residential wiring. This will come in handy
Sounds good Mike!
Good job explaining everything Bill...
Thank you for sharing your knowledge,God bless you
Thanks so much Manuel. God Bless you a well!
Best channel on electrical out there, period. Thank you for all the work you do to get this info out.
Appreciate that! Thanks so much!
Been doing Electrical Work for over 40 Years. I Always Use 22 cu inch plastic boxes with 12 Wire. Folding wires in and GFI outlets make it a better installation, Never more than two 12-2 cables in a one gang box. Code is a Minimum. Real Wire nuts not a fan of plastic pushin wire connectors.
Thanks!
Great comment nec is minimum requirement I’d rather pay $.05 more for a larger box and not struggle stuffing all those wires
I appreciate you address code and explain it so I can understand. (I've read code and it's a nightmare to decipher, at least for me.)
Working in the house my father built my guess is your guess is right on the money, within code and just barely. Doing rework I call that an overstuffed box and for the less experienced a nightmare to work with.
I've based a lot of my choices building a home on what my father did and come to the conclusion he was stingy about some things. I know Small Things add up when building a home however there's a whole lot of things I would do different next time I build. Among them is big boxes for multiple cables. 😆
The offset 30.0 box is awesome. Also, the ones they make when you cut your hole right in line with a brace and you don't have the depth but need a shallow offset box. Next...how many wires can you get in a one-inch pipe? As always...one more. LOL
Here in WV everyone says use 12 wire because it handles more and I see it all the time, an 18 cube box with 3 to 5 12/2 wires plus the gfci or other device, I say yeah lets just disregard the factors that cause fires. Another good one is 4-6 or more 12/2 wires through a 3/4 inch drilled hole.
Super helpful. had to go over twice one or two codes to understand, but go it!
Great job!
Thanks Sparky!
Thanks for this video!
My pleasure!
man... i started doing electrical before wago's were a thing, they do save a lot of space....good luck with GFI's though.
It will fit in. Need to get my NEC code book out and re-read.
Excellent!
It's like Carlon made the box juuuuust big enough for three cables ;)
Thank you,más always, Bill! You are the best! You’re my present-day mentor!
Thanks so much! Best wishes!
GOOD TO KNOW. THANKS!!
No problem, thanks!
One thing you didn't use to calculate the fill was the outlet possibly being a GFIC vs standard outlet, even though the code doesn't distinguish them by yoke?? When in doubt always use the deeper box.
Love the videos and code references . Thanks for the great info.
Thanks!
What is that push stick thing you used at 2:02?
www.amazon.com/dp/B01G4CM96K/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_imm_t1_xwo8FbGCF4665 called a pliers. It’s a tool for people with arthritis or carpal tunnel issues. Or for those with no strength in their fingers. From the look of this guys hands he could have arthritis or carpal tunnel and at his age there is no need to beat yourself up with wiring. Let the tools do the work, smarter not harder
Thank you, so clear! Taking my test soon.
Best of luck! You can do it!
there's actually a code violation on all of those pigtails if anyone knows what the code says about free wire in the box past the make up shall be 6 inches for any box less than 8" in diameter, the wire shall be long enough to extend 3in past the face of the box (article 300.14). I'm pretty sure those pigtails could have been a little bit longer. I was taught from the beginning about 6 inches from the face of the box or the side of my hand to the tip of my thumb pointed out. It works out for a nice make up; fold the wire once and tuck the device in the box. I know those metal boxes are a bit small, but when you are trying to push the wire back and it points straight back because you made the wire so short it wont fold behind the plug or switch, it's hard to put it in there without feeling like one of those wires may get damaged because it's too short to fold! all I'm saying. takes more time to push it in and time on the job is money wasted in my opinion. 2 more inches of wire and it goes smooth. I think if the safety issue were brought up on that, they may change it. You should send in your request, Bill! lol
I WISH my boxes were 20.5 cu in. Mine are the old Bakelite with fiberglass and are only about half as big. They’re not marked (not even branded), but they’re smaller than the Carlon grey Handy Box which is 11.5 cu in.
I’ve been installing smart switches which are fairly large, and I have to shove everything back in. I’m gonna go back and take them out and put in some of the 22 cu-in Smartboxes, or the Carlon 24 cu-in boxes, both of these allow screwing into the stud at an angle (so long as you drive the screws below the plastic so as not to leave the heads exposed).
Yes, that's the way to go. Excellent choice!
I routinely cut those cramped (and often filthy) things out (how I love my battery-powered reciprocating saw!) and replace with a larger Old Work box, largest I can fit in the wall. And yes, for oversized devices such as GFCIs i prefer pushin or leverlock connectors. (DIYer here.)
And thanks for turning me on the Smartboxes with angled-in screws! Going to start using those on my next project; I never di really trust the ear-flaps.
I WISH my boxes were 20.5 cu in. Mine are the old Bakelite with fiberglass and are only about half as big. They’re not marked (not even branded), but they’re smaller than the Carlon grey Handy Box which is 11.5 cu in.
I’ve been installing smart switches which are fairly large, and I have to shove everything back in. I’m gonna go back and take them out and put in some of the 22 cu-in Smartboxes, or the Carlon 24 cu-in boxes.
Yes, that's the way to go. Excellent choice!
Stumbled upon this video at the jobsite. I've never included wirenuts in the volume calculation but two of the newer guys said they were taught to add it to the volume in school. I suppose this videos reference to the code sorts that matter out, but it confuses me as to why they wouldn't mention connectors in the code as they mentioned locknuts and bushings. Also not a fan of those push in connectors but to each their own.
DIYer here. I concur. Connectors are in almost every box. Locknuts and bushings are relatively rare, especially in non-metallic boxes. The Code should be updated to reflect this. As to push-in connectors, i prefer them in more crowded boxes. (Well, OK, I like them everywhere; much easier to use, especially by those of us who do not use wirenuts all day long, day in and day out. And unlike aluminum wiring, and backstabbing receptacle connectors, I do not see hordes of pros regaling us with horror stories on pushin or better, lever-lock connectors.
You miss to have the grounding conductor. 7×2.25=15.75 cu inches now add device 2×2.25=4.50cu inches.
Total 20.25cu in
You missed the code reference, all the ground connectors count as only one conductor.
Those gang push-in connectors are great. I have got to get me some of them. Back in the day code never stated what side up for receptacles so I always installed ground pin up so if anything fell onto a partially installed plug it hit the ground pin and didn't short neutral and hot.
That was one among many claims for doing so none I think we're ever practical and though it's escaping me at the moment but a similar situation I recall could be the argument for putting them ground pin down. The nail in the coffin so to speak is most appliances have plugs that are designed to be ground pin down and even 90* plugs are designed ground pins down so you're not putting stress on tbe cord. Imo can't stand ground up. Hate it. They're wired in my shop this way and they're about to get ripped out and flipped.
Also pin up is terrible ergonomics. Fits better in your hands pin down.
Hi Sparky,
First, thank you so much for such a great video and explanation of the calculation of cubic space needed.
So, I was taught, though(once upon a time) that the ground wires had to be a non- reversible( or crimped) connection. Are push connectors considered to be non reversible?
Hi! I don't know of any such code.
What is the yellow tool you are using to push the wires into the back of the box? That looks useful! 😊
Thank you thank you thank you. Your work and channel is quite useful for us home owners who wish to do things right. Question. Dont you use the Wego locking connectors anylonger??
Yes, I love Wagos!
I have a question about the connectors, aren't they using the same principle as the push in connections on the cheap receptacles. Why would they not fail the same way as on the recepticle? I've used them with a light fixture that came with that type of connector, and they are handy. But I was just curious of the failure rate.
I'm not a fan of those type of connectors/connections. They seem similar to the system/type used in devices such as switches and receptacles. While they are smaller and easier to use, I don't think they will stand the test of time. I perform a great deal of electrical maintenance and repair in homes. I find high failure rates with these push-in connections on switches and receptacles in damp/moist areas. Mostly bathrooms, kitchens and outside walls. Not everything new IS improved.
I got a question for you if you can help.
I just bought a house and in the living room they provided pre wiring for ceiling fan. This is the 14-3 wire (white, red, black and copper). I was wondering if you can explain how i can use this pre wire to connect recessed light. Note the recessed light only have 14-2 wire (white, black and copper. Not sure how i can use this same connection for both ceiling fan and recessed light.
I hope i explained it better. Looking forward for your reply.
personally i think not twisting the grounds together is a mistake. sure that 4 port connecter is fast but i would never use it.
Yes
Here's a question for you - I've seen many electricians saying DO NOT use the 'push-in' wiring on outlets/switches (and I've never used them, I've seen them pull out, and just don't feel reliable) - But now I'm seeing these Ideal In-sure blocks instead of wire nuts - What's your take on this difference? Both are push-in... (I did just use them on an LED hi-hat install, also I tape everything for a little extra insurance if a clip loses tension)
Thank you, sir.
Thanks for the great video. Very informative. I appreciate that you explain the code.
What about metal boxes? Do they need to have the volume stamped also?
Yes, they do.
SALUDOS SPARKY FROM CLIFTON N.J. NICE VIDEO. THANK'S FOR SHARING IT.
Bare grounds suck! I guess it's job security when you run bare grounds and back stab in this situation instead of a shepherds hook. Much harder to smash in there if not... Old schoolers like I can fit this in a handy box no extension 😂 keeping us young tradesman busy!
Love the outlet dance. You are so well inform, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. Do you have video showing how to do wiring for kitchen remodeling?
First of all love Sparky channel! But I guess you might have a different version of the 2020: this is another box fill video that you did but they’re different? Why is that just curious
I have an outlet I opened up yesterday in a house i just bought that has 5 14/2 wires running into the outlet box. This is a single outlet box. Would getting a double or triple outlet box and adding 1 or 2 more outlets to the gang make this safer? It is way too crammed and obviously exceeds Cubic Inch space requirements.
What was the tool you used to push wires back into the box I need one .
Hammer (handle)
Homeowner told me he doesn't have to worry about overfilling a box. He just cuts the back of the box off and puts as many wires in there as he wants.
Great videos. {lease can you provide advice on testing and troubleshooting of electrical circuits and the use of push in connectors over the use of wire nuts. I live in Thailand which seems to follow (in parts) the NEC code but, does mix and match with other regulations so, can be confusing. Thanks
this is great thanks! ITs going to help me remember alot of stuff in my tech school... and even to ask good questions!
Happy to help! Thanks Edward!
I have a box in my house that is like that one it has 6 14/2 w ground cables and a 12/2 w ground cable and an outlet it's a boxfull
Fantastic videos. Learn a lot. 👍🏼
just recently found your channel, and love it please keep the videos coming. I do have one question, what is the yellow tool that you use to push the wires into the box?
Welcome to Sparky Channel! Here you go: VOLTCLAW-12 Nonconductive Electrical Wire Pliers: Amazon: amzn.to/3nckp5Q
Excellent explanation, thank you very much
thanks for the reminder sparky
Thanks!
Man! These videos are amazing.
Right on brotha! Much appreciated
Thanks!
Another wonderful video. Thanks Sparky.
Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks!
Doesn't the internal clamp count for 1?
I was thinking the same thing Bruce. The NEC says you must count clamps (1 based on the largest conductor) but Sparky did not count it in his fill. I am not sure why? I always use the deeper boxes from Home Depot with a cubic inch fill of 22.5 so it would allow the clamp to be counted in this example and still meet code.
bro thank you very much very clear and to the point my man know his stuff amazing work music at the end was funny
Glad you enjoyed it, thanks!
Best explanations
Thanks!
Informative and well done. Thank you!
My pleasure, thanks!
Very well put together, thanks
Much appreciated!
How good is that connector con it handle the 15 amps and can the wire comes out back
Ha. Seen iit a lot over the yrs were the box was jammed. I hate it. Always tell who ever is working with me not to jab up the boxes. I like wire nuts though.
Thanks Roger!
I would keep it simple and NOT try to have more than 2 Romex feeds in and outlet box. It a spur run is needed, it should be in a separate junction box that does not have a receptacle.
That is silly , install a bigger box. You can get a 22.5 cubic inch box. Always install the biggest box that will fit in the wall. You dont want blank cover plates all over your house.
Disagree. You add more material, which is cost, to the job and it looks worse.
Tanks for the video, very good
does a smoke detector count on the yoke volume. It sits outside the box unlioke a switch or an outlet that occupy space in the box ? Same with a light ?
No, it doesn't. As you say, it sits on the outside of the box.
Thanks sparky your a top G
Thanks!
For the neutrals don’t you need to worry about which phase they connect to in the main?
That's correct.
What? Neutral doesn't have a "phase". It's either the center tap of a transformer (split phase, or high leg), or the the common rail of the windings in a wye system. There may be multiple _systems_ in the facility where you wouldn't want to bridge their neutrals.
('tho all neutrals are "grounded conductors", so it _shouldn't_ break anything more than words on a page ("code") BUT, in the Real World(tm) neutrals from different systems may not be at equal potential -- as I have seen before.)
@@SparkyChannel how is that correct? Neutrals from different circuits should not be connected but there is no way to connect then to a different "phase" as they are never connected to a "phase" unless it's a fault
Couldn't this receptacle be powered by one cable with two conductors? Or does each actual plug require power?
I was looking at your boxes you should go over fire ratings cuz I can see you have certain car in boxes are thicker and then you had the real flimsy one I'm not sure but I think it has a lower fire rating
I'll check it out, thanks!
Thanks 🙏
No problem, thanks Peter!
hi. I enjoy your videos. i don't see any information on the push stick , any information . thank you.
Google "Ideal Wire Connectors" Available at Home Depot. I had not known of them either.
I noticed that the receptacles with USB connections are a lot beefier, does this change the volume allowance at all?
You do a great job. Thank you
Thanks so much Gary!