Cordelia raised baby Connor along with Angel. I consider her as Connor's mother, because she did everything a mom does. Which add that level of grossness and uneasiness to season 4. It felt like watching an incestuous couple.
Yeah I found that hole storyline in season 4 totally disturbing and gross it definitely sorta reminds me of what happened in season 12 of supernatural It really angers me that joss Whedon would come up with something that sickening and evil just to get rid of charisma he basically ruined her character and the show because of what happened in season 4 the network basically canceled angel half way through season 5 I'm not surprised I even stopped watching the show during season 4 and I definitely will never watch season 4 or 5 again 🤯😬🥶😠😡🤬💩🤢🤮
@@fgcpeak9591 Legit. Cordelia never slept with Connor. Jasmine did. It was all apart of Jasmine’s plan as she needed it to happen so she could create her own body. When people say Cordy slept with Connor.. yeah that was not what happened.
Making returned 'Cordy' a twist villain killed Connor's characterization. The audience was never allowed to acknowledge and absorb the true horror of being groomed, manipulated, and sexually assaulted by a supernatural force... after being groomed, manipulated, and psychologically tortured by the man who raised him. For the sake of the twist, Connor is framed as a villain, rather than as a victim, which is cruelly ironic. The audience is gaslit about the character being gaslit. He had so much potential as a character, and they just wasted it.
And lets not even forget that he was raised in the worst hell dimension in the Angel Universe, to the extent that Jasmine's powers never actually worked on him, he could always see her true form, and he just didn't care. Being loved by an eldtritch horror that wants to eat the world, was just better than nothing. People hating on Connor, like why can't he just get over it. Imagine spending your entire childhood in the worst Siberian prison, abused, and brainwashed, and taught the whole reason you were there, meant to suffer every day for as long as you could remember, was because your father was an evil monster who didn't want you. now multiply that by about ten thousand, and that should compare it to being raised in the worst, most horrific hell dimension in the Angel Verse, which was where Connor had to live. That's not something a teenager can just get over. Everyone was seeing Angel as the wounded dad, but forgetting that Conner didn't know Angel from Adam. The only father he knew for his entire life was the hunter who stole him and brain washed him. I always thought Connor was holding his crap together a lot better than anyone else would. For one he wasn't a drooling lunatic when he got out of the hell dimension, and we know that place effected his mind, because Jasmine's true form and powers were considered common place to him, and didn't work on him. Honestly, I would have loved a Connor spin off after Angel ended. Connor could have had a second chance to be introduced as a proper hero. without all that papa drama angst, especially since he had started slowly getting back his erased memories, but his false memories still felt real, and the erased memories, more like a distant bad dream.
Him and faith having a spin off would have been awesome and maybe someone like Giles who is an amazing father figure (not counting the monumental fk up they did to him in season 7 ) and doesn't take any crap. I was gutted they didn't do the ripper spin off as intended.
@@teamaang7915 They were going to do a Faith Spin-Off, but then she had already signed a contract to do Tru Calling, because the producers were dragged their heals on the Faith spin-off. Tru Calling was actually pretty good after a few episodes. They cancelled it right when all these really cool plot twists and turns were starting to happen. It totally should have had a third season, and a fourth.
They f***** his character up there should be a book about him and Dawn falling in love and also at the same time having some redemption for their characterization also hopefully someone can make them more likeable freedom from the toxic of of the man whose name I will not mention
Vincent Kartheiser's talent still managed to shine through,despite the limited material he was given. Peace Out is one of my favorites of the series. I get why people hated Connor,but I only ever felt sorry for him. He was a mixed bag of rage and confusion,and it was to see why.
I completely agree. Although he's whiney and annoying at times and generally a negative person, I really liked his character. It's just such a dark and tragic story. Episodes like Inside Out, Peace Out and Home are some of the best episodes of the series and they highlight the darkness and trauma that Connor suffers. It's also a great dynamic between Angel and his son and it just fits the themes of tragedy so well by giving Angel a son and then having all these terrible things happen to him.
I ignored most of season 3 and nearly all of season 4, and really hated Connor, but his portrayal makes perfect sense. He was abused in a hell dimension his entire life. He's completely irredeemable except by supernatural means. There is no helping him. Only a mind wipe.
Orign in season 5 even more as he shows really gratitude and thanks for angel for the false family he got and bit of stability he holds on and how he thanks angel and calls him dad . Thats so bittersweet, yet really even more hammering home the depth of connors trauma that that makes him more than happy , its connor being proud of angel yet so messed up in implication that is making connor happy. Which is a kind a dellution but for connotrr as close as he thinkd he cen ever get :(
It reminds me of the mistreatment of Dawn, Joss must really just hate teenagers lmao. Even in our normal world, teens have a hard time adjusting to life. They're dramatic and whiny because they're growing into themselves. Throw in supernatural creatures, dead parents, etc and of course they're going to act up. They deserved better writing and better circumstances!
Yeah I feel for the Dawn side of things. I was okay with her on s5 but s6 was a dealbreaker for me for her character initially. She was acting out in the most outrageous ways that I don't see any kid doing, even for a supernatural show. Michelle Trachtenberg really nailed the nails on the chalkboard screams and I can't formally watch her on s6 without feeling that way. It's like I understand her when I'm not watching her but when I rewatch the episodes and see her and knowing what she's going to do that is stupid, I can't tolerate Dawn at all. Connor was the "love to hate" character while Dawn was the "insufferable child" character based on the way they were portrayed. It's not Vincent's or Michelle's faults but Joss could've made then more realistic instead of weak minded emo rageaholic with superpowers and a girl in a groundhog day loop while being on the worst period ever. The only time they both peaked was at the end of the season when they actually voice their opinions and feeling without holding anything back. That was more realistic for me in the most horrible roads that least up to this time of clarity.
you write this comment as if Dawn and Connor are real people who suffered lmao it's just the conflict that was written to service the narrative and the characters.
In the case of Connor, we are talking about someone who has been raised all his life in hell and is now in another dimension. In Dawn's case, it's that she's an idiot.
I find Dawn has a FAR better reception with the fanbase than Connor. Connor is tied up in all the Charisma drama and behind the scenes stuff so people really want to fix that (especially in fanfic). But Dawn really only annoys a chunk of the viewers. Dawn gets more hate lately for being whiney/not action girl when fans don't realize she was brought in to replace Cordelia/Xander as the person who needed saving all the time. Notice in S1-3 Buffy is constantly saving classmates but by S6-7 it's almost only the Scoobies involved in supernatural problems?
@@WonderlandhypeDawn pissed me off in S6. When Buffy went to tell her she might be going to prison because she thought she killed Katrina. And Dawn proceeded to make it about her... I was ten years old when that episode aired and even I knew it wasn't about Dawn, like damn girl your sister is sitting here traumatized already from coming back from the dead and she's telling you she might have killed someone but yet here you are making it about you.
Yeah but after his supposed memory wipe it was implied when he came back on the show that Connor still remembered angel. That's the thing about the show Angel and Buffy a lot of the story you have to look at it as a implied approach honestly the creator of Buffy and Angel he sucks as a writer. I'm glad he doesn't own the rights to Buffy and Angel Disney own the rights
@@simonjack9699 Not implied, Connor bluntly says he knows Angel’s his father when they had coffee together. He got his old memories back and they were mixed in with the new ones. Seeing as how the good far outweighed the bad, Connor’s temperament leveled out and was able to acknowledge and show gratitude for what Angel did.
It also goes without saying that fans of the show already love the other characters Angel, Wesley, Gunn etc so when someone comes in and does them harm they get fiercely defensive. That's another reason they needed to drop a few more redeeming qualities with Connor or at least show a flashback or two of his being tortured in Quor'toth by Holtz...because that's what it was. Torture. Being left for 5 days to find Holtiz was a PROUD moment for Connor...so how long did he have to run around lone in that hell world? how many times? What else did Holtz do to him? It was bad enough that Connor punched through a world to find his father. Yes he loved Holtz but in the way a lot of people love their abusive parents. It's messed up and with no one to guide him, I completely understand him being lost. The short time he's with Gunn & Fred alone, they're trying their best but their attention is split between taking care of him, work, and trying to find Angel and Cordelia so Connor didn't even get the type of attention and care he needed. It was still better than anything he had before but with his life, he needed so much more. Connor didn't even get educated. He never went to school, was never taught how to think for himself...he didn't know how to do critical thinking which made him easy prey to everyone to emotionally (or sexually) abuse him. He didn't have friends, didn't know anything outside of LA or the hell dimension. People forget how big an impact things like going to school would be. A lot of abused kids sometimes feel a reprieve when they're at school since they don't need to be around their abusive parents for a few hours. They also get to hear about far off places in the world & potential lives they could lead one day...giving them hope. School gives them an outlet so they could have fun or make friends etc. Connor had nothing but pain. Once the group finds out about he and Cordelia it's like they're shocked/disgusted but then that's it. They're just confused and trying to stop the birth but there's no acknowledgement of how messed up the situation would have made Connor. It's just...sad.
Connor was always one of my very favorites since he was introduced. I obviously wasn’t a fan of the thing with him and Cordelia, but I loved his character and Vincent’s performance
Same!! I love him so much!! I cannot hate him. I just love him so much!! Vincent did an amazing job. Especially when Connor was saying very hateful words full of anger yet you could see the sadness in his eyes.
I loved the idea of Connor. I also loved him when he came back in season 3, I wish they could of continued that character instead of the total ruin in season 4. Letting him and Angel getting closer and making Connor Angel biggest love, like they did with Dawn and Buffy. I guess male relationships, even family, frightened Joss.
Joss was a lot less involved in both shows than people think. He only wrote 26 episodes of Buffy (3 in S1). And he really only had 2 seasons where he was on the set of Angel all the time. Joss would plan out season arcs with his writers but they had pretty much free reign. Marti is well known to be just as big a problem at spreading toxicity in the writing. Spike/Buffy is because of her.
@@iriswaldenburger2315 Yeah, but he still planned the season arc. The only thing his absence did for the show is, that there weren't any episodes that gave emotional weight or moral gravity to the Cordy/ Connor thing, coz he would have found a way to show that, and hence address the audience's disgust and horror for it. The story just kept purposelessly meandering around.
@@asthajindal5275 well according to joss himself and the other writers (bits and pieces from Cons, Reddit and interviews) the arc was more or less the same but had a completely different context
I love that you did this video, because I need more people to support Connor... On the other hand, I was writing a video on this exact topic and you managed to hit every point I was going to cover! Connor is UNABASHEDLY my favourite character in the Whedonverse. I think Vincent Kartheiser's talents surpassed what he was given. As a fic writer, I also love characters that have potential and I don't think any character has more potential than Connor. I especially want to give you props for not shying away from calling what Fauxdelia did to Connor as grooming and rape. A lot of people just focus on how "icky" it is, without really delving into how damaging it was to him. I always thought the problem with Season Four wasn't Connor, but that everyone else (in particular Angel) was an asshole. Since Connor was the new kid, he got blamed for things. But everyone was slumming it, and poor Connor wasn't mentally able to handle it. When people were talking spin-offs in the Buffyverse, I know people always called for Faith or Spike or a Slayer school.... I always wanted one for Connor, because Connor was the character who never got his full character arc. Faith and Spike became the heroes they were supposed to be, but Connor had it cut short. Since they of course never went that way, I ended up writing it myself. Unfortunately it was fairly unpopular, because as you said Connor isn't a popular character.
See, I felt so much for Connor too, and don't think the hatred he gets is warranted, but I also do not see the "Angel was so awful to him" argument that some people make in his defense. Not even a tiny bit. Don't get me wrong, it breaks my heart because I think if Angel had been really exceptional at communication, and had had more time to work through his own grief and trauma over everything that had, for him, JUST happened with Connor, I do think things could have gone differently. But that's just not a realistic expectation to put on Angel, that he would handle all of the absolute madness life was throwing at him completely perfectly and with perfect understanding of exactly what Connor needed to hear to break through a whole life of having been abused and manipulated. Angel consistently tried, really *really* hard, to show Connor how much he loved him. He also had to be a responsible parent and show him that his severe and vengeful actions would have appropriately serious consequences, but even when he kicked him out of the hotel, he was still looking out for him, and still proved that he would be there for him when he needed him. It was just such a snowball of SO many messed up circumstances that got in the way of that trust being able to be properly built. It sucks, but I never once questioned how deeply Angel loved and cared about Connor, and while there were plenty of things he didn't handle perfectly, I fail to see how he was ever doing anything but his best in nearly impossible circumstances. The other members of Team Angel, sure, there's some more grounds to say they were harsher on Connor than they should have been. But not Angel himself.
I also like Connor for the most part and do feel for him. I really like that he got a somewhat happy ending. I will say in defense of team Angel treating him kind of harsh he DID spend pretty much a whole summer working with Fred and Gunn acting like he had no idea what happened to Angel when he knew damn well where he was so I can understand Fred and Gunn feeling pretty betrayed over that. Also Connor was incredibly racist towards Lorne on more than one occasion. Ultimately they all cared for him in their own way.
@@caseyhart4999 Yeah, it's hard, Angel might have calculated that no one else would accept Connor rather than it being his own grievance. That sometimes happens in real life. Someone at the top calculates that the other staff won't accept a worker. Also, another aspect of this is that Connor was pretty much equally matched with Angel, and Angel was in turn tougher than anyone else in the show. Connor was really dangerous. Faith wasn't Angels equal I don't think. The group would be very unsafe with Connor anywhere near them.
The writers did him dirty for most of season 4. I like him in season 3 and season 5 he especially shines. I have no idea why they decided to try and put “Cordy” and him together. Obviously no one would like that.
I do wonder if giving Connor a normal relationship with a girl his age would have helped. Like Dawn. I do ship Dawn and Connor. They have a lot in common. They both feel like they don’t belong and aren’t supposed to exist. Dawn faces finding out she isn’t real and that her family isn’t really her family. I feel like if Dawn and Connor would have met and grown a relationship he would have had someone who understands where he is coming from. Dawn would also have kept him grounded if he could go to her and just vent. Also sideline: if you have any good Dawn/Connor fanfics please let me know some!
I want to see a spinoff where Connor and Dawn leave their shows, get together and road trip across the country fighting vampires and demons as they go. I think they’d be good for each other and could help each other grow.
I love season 7 Dawn as she became a mix of the scoobies in a way that's pretty realistic to how she was raised. I actually think she and Connor would be perfect for each other. As friends or otherwise. But in all honestly, Connor just needed a friend outside the group. Someone he could have fun with and forget about all the pain and death for a little while.
I agree with all of this. It broke my heart what they did to Cordy and Conner.. But.. I want to mention how no one brings up that Darla was a sprint.. possibly an angel.. that means the human soul does ASSEND.. while the demon half goes to hell.. this is HUGE and it's never brought up in show and I've havnt anyone else point this out.
Especially since the idea for Season 4's whole shitty storyline was Whedon getting pissed off at Charisma Carpenter for getting pregnant. Sick sod even asked her if she was going to abort the baby. Getting so mad at an actress for having a baby you make a storyline where her character has one that turns out to be an evil being who brainwashes people so she can eat them and take over is really petty.
@@Xehanort10 Petty but also kind of... genius. I mean the writers had to do what they did in a short amount of time so they worked around it and crafted a pretty compelling and ambitious storyline. I understand that some people really don't like Season 4, that's completely sensible. I kind of loved it though. Home is such a great finale probably the best finale (besides Not Fade Away) and the scene between Angel and Connor in the sports store is pretty intense. Also, I feel like Cordy should've been written out earlier (like mid season 3) they could've avoided the Connor/Cordy story arc and the show would probably be better without it. But then again, it's part of the show and it gives Angel more depth.
in all honesty, i’m not a fan of connor. he’s insufferable and i never liked him, ever since he popped up from that hell dimension. don’t get me wrong he was fine when he was a baby but after he aged up super fast it was just a no. although i do see where all his troubled behaviours came from. he was born into darkness, the mortal son of 2 vampires who wasn’t even supposed to exist, yet he did. he was also stolen as a baby and raised in a FULL ON HELL DIMENSION by one of his fathers enemies who groomed him into believing his father was a horrible person. i only liked him when they erased everyone’s memories of him and gave him a new life. even though it was all fabricated and lies, it showed how growing up normally could have changed connors life and made him… well actually sufurable. even after he got his memories back he didn’t change back into the boy he used to be, because he was able to see both ways. point is i hate connors attitude yet i see where it comes from, and maturing i’m staring to realize that he’s not as horrible as he seems.
I always loved that he got a happy ending ❤ he really deserved to have a family and his parents seemed great 👍 the kid was very likeable without all that baggage. Tragic only in past tense.
I enjoyed Conner. I was only bothered by his relationship with Cordy but truly watching this show from s1-s5 i felt for him. He didnt want to fight anymore and he just wanted a family that loved him. Im glad he got that in s5 even when he got his memories back. If Angel survived that last battle, I hope they developed a real relationship. They deserve it
I really hope that she does I really hated the hole storyline with her and conner I found it truly disgusting and disturbing and evil just the thought about that entire season makes me sick 🤯😬😠😡🤬🤢🤮
Yeah I had a hard time watching the rest of season 4 and 5 after that to but I did watch the finale of angel though but yeah that storyline basically ruined not only cordelia character but it also ruined angel as well 🤮🤢🥶😠😡🤬💩
Joss got mad at an actress and took it out on her character. He's done this multiple times. Seth says he wants to do more movies, he ruins Oz. Anthony wants to spend time with family and so they turn Giles into a horrible mentor for the last 2 seasons. Lokking back on the show, tons of actors left early/never wanted to return to set. We Maybe so many of his shows ending at 1 season had less to do with ratings and more about staff complaining to producers.
This video does a good job explaining why I like Season 4 so much. It's so dark and tragic and all the story arcs, character arcs and story beats perfectly line up. Although they basically sacrificed Cordelia's character to achieve this, I still like Season 4 a lot.
Season 4 is no where near as bad as people say it is honestly, people just think of the Cordy/Connor thing and think that one scene encapsulates all of Season 4 (even though it was Jasmine that slept with him not Cordy). Honestly overall I think Season 4 is quite good, and would be even higher if it weren’t for how Cordy’s character was treated but they explain what happens to her and she gets a closure episode. It’s nothing like Daenerys or Bellamy for the 100. Complete character change with no build up or explanation in Bellamy’s case.
"Too late. Too late." in 3x20 always chills me to the bone, because of how true it is. There is no way to talk Connor's trauma out of him, to convince him Angel is good, to make him understand what good even is. It's too entrenched, too tied to his sense of self, too late. That moment is also reminiscent of their final(ish) confrontation in 4x22, "You let him get me. Oh, you let him get me." as they are fundamentally the same statement. It took 25 episodes for him to truly see Holtz as the monster he is, but that understanding was never the balm that would allow him to finally heal.
I agree with this. People crap on Connor but from when he was a week old till basically the end of season 4 he was just manipulated and used his entire life. Connor wasn't really happy until he got his memory wiped and forgot all that. He is great+-
This video is SPOT on. Connor had so much wasted potential. In a post Me Too era, I’m convinced the S4 story was, at the broad-strokes, the story Whedon intended to tell and yet failed in execution in many many episodes. First, after reading hundreds of contemporaneous and after-the-fact interviews, I think Whedon’s intent was always an evil Cordelia. The actress’s pregnancy was a timing issue (that could have been lovingly handled versus source of abuse). A complete breakdown in show leadership (also Whedon’s fault for over-reach and neglect) left a writer’s room that was extremely uneven in tone and plot. But then individual writers/actors give moments of brilliance that show what could have been. Biggest regrets: 1) One-note whiny teen writing for so many episodes 2) Borderline ‘camp’ evil writing for Cordelia (booming voice thing) Flaws (in my opinion) that Whedon never thought were bad: - Angel’s dumping Connor on the streets (I don’t think Whedon thought it due to Angel’s mental state, he thought it was tough love) - Cordy raping Connor (Whedon didn’t see it as rape, which led to the grossness in addition to incest - remember he was going for Oedipus) Meanspiritness - because Whedon was cruel - Cordy’s black outfit - Constantly putting CC on a concrete floor or cold slab These elements make me shudder at parts of S4. And yet I agree with the OP, the video correctly shows there was some tragic brilliance in Connor that could have told a much better story.
When it comes to Connor I feel like the hate he gets is justified in Season 4, namely because how his character was written with Cordelia (in that Joss had to disgustingly mess her character to do it) and him being manipulated by Jasmine was really annoying. Yes he was raised in a hell dimension, but I don't feel it entirely excuses it. At least how it was excecuted. I still get a kick out of when Faith kicks the crap out of Connor in Orpheus! However when it comes to Season 5 Connor its a complete turn around. Once Angel got him a normal life & family Connor improves greatly! He actually became one of my favorite Buffyverse characters. I'd say overall Connor isn't a bad character, that's like saying because Cordelia was done poorly in Season 4 she's bad, its just in Season 4 specifically. I will say though, even at his worst Vincent Kartheiser's performance was fantastic, despite the limited material and stagnant progression he was given, which is truly a testament that even at its worst Buffyverse could still manage in some way. That being said still wasn't the biggest fan of Season 4.
Season four was so bad I really hated it connor had so much potential to explore his character but joss really screwed up his character just to get rid of charisma for being pregnant 😠😡🤬🤢🤮
I clicked so fast! Great analysis, you helped me better understand the complexity of Conner's character development and thank you for acknowledging the horrendous relationship he had with Cordelia. Love your videos!
Yeah that sick relationship he was in with cordelia was so disgusting and down sickening to me I really hated that storyline just so gross and offensive 🤯😬😠😡🤬🤢🤮
@@kris8536 it shocks and angers me that joss Whedon came up with that storyline just to get rid of charisma all because she got pregnant I truly feel sorry for her the way he treated her and her character cordelia was so cruel 🤯😠😡🤬😬😳
"Why couldn't he offer the same support to his own flesh and blood?" GGGIIIIIIIIRRRRRLLL...... ... IF ONLY the world had an answer for THIS ONE!!! lol. Angel's total rejection of Conner in Conner's greatest moment of need for fatherly love &forgiveness isn't inconsistent with ANGEL'S character, so much as it is a fairly common between parent and child. Best any of us have been able to guess so far: We see our own weaknesses in our children's mistakes. Or, SOMETHING like that. idk, man..
I think it's tragic that him and Dawn never met.. I think it's tragic the way Dawn was treated by Buffy in the final season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I think it's weird in the episode potential that it was pretty clear that Dawn was a potential, but out-of-the-blue it's like the script change it's mine like Michelle and Joss had some kind of disagreement he change his mind about the importance of dawn. Honestly I'm surprised that Dawn wasn't killed off in the final episode. Like think about it the episode potential like that orb would hit the potential Slayer it hit dawn like what it hit her because she was closer to the door LOL😂
Damn I forgot all about this stuff. Back then, I didn't realize how creepy it was that he and Cordelia were sleeping together. Especially since the non-posessed version of her was a surrogate mother to him.
I do think part of it was avoiding any comparisions to Charmed and Chris. It's why the studio asked Joss to cut back on the catholosism after S1-2, because Charmed had that covered and so BTVS went pagan/wiccan.
My cousin used to hate conner probably still does but ever since when he was baby and he calmed down and smiled at Angel true vampire face and I loved him all the more in the season 5 finale when he came back to help his father and he made that remark to his father about you show up for a cup of coffee and the world's not ending please father and son finally teaming up
You are so right I hated the way joss wrote the character of connor and with what he did to cordelia conner had so much potential he definitely deserved better and I hated that angel throws him out like that I really hated the last two seasons of angel 🤯😬😠😡🤬💩
The worst part is that none of the Fang Gang outside of Angel ever consider that they might have been a bit too harsh on the kid and expected him to get over his distrust and trauma quickly
Here's why i (in very real life) can relate to Connor...... Connor was born into a situation that he never wanted nor asked for. So was i......Connor was manipulated by the person who raised him to hate his father due to a personal issue. So was i......Connor became withdrawn and antisocial due to his poor teachings and constant emotional exploitation. So did i.......Connor was on the verge of destroying himself before the father that he hated saved him from himself. So was i......So you see, i can never hate this guy! He is me.
I think the two greatest scenes Connor has is with Cordy in the church and with Angel in the season 4 finale. He’s completely numb and has been hollowed out by his traumatic upbringing by Holtz and the seeming indifference of his father and Angel Investigations. Brilliantly done!
People hate Conor cuz they wanted the happy ending where he becomes Angels loyal son and greatest partner. But that doesnt happen. People say he didnt show growth……sure he did, he kinda grew into the main Big Bad of S4
I did like Connor but his character arc was crazy just never developed . He showed glimpses then he didn’t. It was mad bizarre you saw Cordelia help raise Connor with Angel and then months later he comes back from that hell dimension aged and him and cordeila sleep together… Cordeila would never have done that but we know something is up with cordeila and Jasmine took over Cordelia. It annoyed me more what they did to Cordelias character and only for her to come back in one episode in season 5 and die in the same episode… Also when you hear Connor say to Angel last episode of season 4 “You let him get me” you realise he knows how bad Holtz was. It was so annoying that he knew Holtz lied about Angel and he still hated Angel or just wanted love so much he couldn’t see the love Angel wanted to give him. However in season 5 you see how great Connor was and even when he gets his memories back he appreciates Angel for what all that happened and understood he did what he did. You get to see he knows that’s his dad and they fight together in the final episode ever even calling him dad. Connor loved Angel in the end and he appreciated that Angel gave Connor a chance to change his memories to have a happy life. Such a shame we didn’t get more of season 5 Connor in another tv series in season 6. However you do in the comics I hope people check that out always pains me we never got it on tv there was so much to happen especially with Connor his story is quite crazy in the comics from what I know and redeeming for his character a lot happens . Story just don’t end when the tv series end it continues in the comics !!🙌🏽
He wanted to, but Darla said that keeping the bastard alive and torturing him with the knowledge that he could never avenge his family was so much more fun, and poetic. Holtz was supposed to die an old, lonely and bitter man, but that damned Sahjahn plucked him out of time like a colonial deranged Captain America and sicced him on Angel so he could stop Connor from growing up and killing him.
Jasmine aka The Beastmaster, Sahjhan, Wolfram&Hart, Daniel Holtz, and Justine Cooper ruined Connor's childhood and life. Things better if Angel and Cordelia rasing Connor.
I really appreciate this. I’m in the middle of an Angel re-watch and have been dreading getting to the Conner parts. This might help make the watch easier. Thanks!
connor was a hard character to like but the potential for how deep his story could go if he was allowed to be the main character rather than a plot device always kept him in my mind. i used to dislike him & dawn when i was watching then both but for whatever reason, connor always had more of a reason for me to keep going back to as a potentially great character. dawn was frustrating ( even as a teen girl watching it ) b/c she acted a bit too immature & that was entirely the writer's fault. it made up for it in later seasons but connor never got that chance. every time he would begin the build up to a complete character arc, the entire story would shift. also he is one of the few depictions of male sexual assault victims in media & unfortunately it was severely mishandled. no one, not even angel seems to notice or care about what happened to connor. like, yes, cordelia was posses ( when wasn't she in the show ) but in the aftermath, no one tried to help him, no one tried to understand he was a victim in all of it. he was a victim his whole life but he never was treated like one. he was never given any sort of redemption or revenge plot that felt satisfying in any way. the writers fumbled his character so profoundly it makes rewatching the show really difficult. i always get up to the kidnapping & usually stop watching then pick up once he's been placed with his new family.
The fact that Holtz threw his own child into the sun after she became a vampire shows he has no ability to form connections with family. He could never love Connor because of what he was.
Season 4 of Angel is the worst thing I have ever seen. I don't like Connor at all but this video made me think about it. I still cry when I remember what the show did to Cordy and I would to see more Buffyverse videos 💜
Yeah I really hated what joss did to cordelia that was just so sick and disgusting to me it reminds me of what happened in season 12 of supernatural 🤯😬😠😡🤬🤢🤮
I can’t stand Conner as a character, but I agree that his storyline is a very tragic one. And I do find myself very glad that he gets a new, happy life with a family.
Connor would have been so better suited to a different story arc. He had so much potential, Vincent Karthesier is very good looking and charismatic and they could have done so much more with him. I wish they’d somehow had him meet Dawn, have some weirdness going on between them. (Not necessarily a romance!) That would have been very interesting! I’m so enjoying your videos. It’s a joy hearing your thoughts, I agree with so much of it!
Thank you for making this video describing Connor and his character arc throughout the show as well as the lack of character growth and the wasted opportunity for growth and expansion of the underlying issues that you mentioned. Even though I don't like the storyline of season 4 between Connor and possessed Cordelia, I've always thought that Connor got a bad hand, I wish the writers tried harder when it came to telling Connor's story.
Angel taking Faith in was very different. Angel had his own appartment. This time Angel has mutliple people he's protecting at the Hyperion and Connor has proven he's dangerous.
Wesley was supposed to be the smart one. He let a false prophecy trick him into thinking Angel would kill his son. Then he took Connor from the safety of the Hyperion to his house, only for the baby to be kidnapped and taken to another dimension.
I cried so much for Connor, Dawn and even Willow in these shows. They had suffered so much I couldn’t imagine the pain. Oh and as for monsters it was always damn Spike for me. Great memories watching these with my kids.
Great video really enjoyed it. However the character was written the way he was written and sure his up bringing had to do with his character along with the circumstances of his birth but aside from all that Connor was still a obnoxious angsty moody teenager who when given the chance or the benefit of the doubt betrayed the same people over and over and never made amends or apologized. I get the tragic back story but at some point based on how he was written Angels character got tired of fighting for someone who betrayed him and threw him in the ocean. Fool me once shame on you fool me twice well..
Less development than Dawn, but more substance, if that makes sense. Honestly the only Connor moments I like are the end of "Home" and the season 5 episode where we meet cyvus vail
Excellent video! He was a tragic character with a lot of potential that was unfortunately bypassed to be a tool for certain storylines. I liked the character but the way he was written made him not so fun to watch.
8:05-9:00 In defense of Angel in the first episode of Season 4, he did drown over and over again for a couple months and he's not really the most stable minded. I mean yes he was sitting there and was spilling out truths and and seem to be stable since he drank Wesley's blood but he was still drowning over and over again which caused trauma. Within that time of constant drowning, he had various scenarios that pop through his head of meeting Cordelia on the beach, having dinner as a family but Connor is betraying him, and killing Connor for his betrayal and these scenarios are only the ones that we get to see in little snippets. I think that he turned away Connor because Connor was the one person that kept on disappointing Angel the most. Yes Faith try to turn him and kill him a couple times and yes Lindsey did plenty more than his share of violence towards Angel but Connor was the most close to Angel in terms of trust and love. We all saw how he reacted to Wesley after his betrayal back in season 3 so this reaction isn't really far-fetched for me. I think it would be kind of weird if he actually did try to kill Connor at that moment if he actually have the strength to. I guarantee if Buffy killed him out of malicious reasons, he would treat her the same way and probably would have left Sunnydale way before he did. Angel is very sensitive to the people that are close to him if they ever betray him. Especially those who have souls.
Wow, this was extremely well put together I did not gather the bit about Holtz when I first watched it. Despite that I don't agree though. I think some people are unfixable. Some circumstances so tragic we don't see a person being able to break out of them and I think growing up in a hell dimension could be that! The idea of him needing his entire memories wiped temporarily to deal with it I think is fairly accurate. I literally don't think the show creators put a single foot wrong. Also, unlike with Dawn, the creators of the show seemed to be able to grip the psychology involved. After Connor killed Jasmine, Angel says that he is worried about him because he killed her with no emotion involved. So it's clear there is an awareness of the characters psychology. Even though it might have been annoying to some the show was cancelled it was too formulaic to go on for much longer... Here's a bad monster, bad monster killed. Another aspect of the interesting symbology of this, is that Angel takes the job at Wolfram and Heart in order to protect Connor. This is very like people having to make sacrifices to corporations, perhaps even moral sacrifices, to keep said jobs but that protect their loved ones.
Conner and Dawn are seriously underrated but also wasted potential....I would have loved to have had a meeting between all the scoobies/potentials and team angel/wolfram n hart (or a versus episode) Buffy - Angel (slayer vs champion) Willow - Fred (science vs magic) Xander - Gun (???) Dawn - Conner (miracle child vs miracle child Faith - Gwen Raiden (Dark Slayer vs Rogue theif) Robin Wood (son of a slayer vs slayer killer....rematch)
Connor has the potential to be a great character. He had from the moment of his creation been manipulated by horrific and tragic forces, abandoned, betrayed, groomed sexually and abused by those who tell him they love him. It’s amazing he wasn’t a dark empty shell. But they didn’t give him room to explore or grow. Counteract that with Wesley’s character arc. Wesley has Privilege and has tried to make is father proud but makes a mess of things but his growth with hunting, losing the group, finding love, being almost killed by Angel , losing Fred and having to work with the thing that killed her, looking at him with Fred’s face. It’s a thing of beauty.
If I could change one thing about the character, I would have him discard the name Connor and take the name Holtz instead. This would have made him epically more tragic and helped grab the attention of the audience wanting to know what the name meant to him. He could reveal that he didn't take it because of the man Daniel Holtz, but to honour and remember the Holtz family. The innocent victims of Darla and Angelus. In a way, Connor and Holtz were both children of Angel/Angelus and Darla. One is born through an act of sacrifice and the other through cruel slaughter. By having this boy take the name of his parents victims, the writers could have combined centuries of suffering all into one character. Every time Angel looks at him he is forced to look at all of his past sins. Almost as if he is seeing his reflection in a mirror and is pained at what is looking back
The problem with Angel, for me, was that every season was similar in 1 way & only 1 way: every season started off strong, & finished off weaker. Not that they were anywhere near as bad as season 4, which went from a 4* (out of 5*) to 1*. But I never enjoyed the second half of any Angel season. But about Connor specifically; I thought he was played wonderfully by Vincent Kartheiser, but yeah... I hated Connor the first time I watched Season 4. The second time I watched it, I hated him less, but I still hated the Season. Don't get me wrong, there were good episodes during that season. Even episodes I loved (5*). But most were absolute shite! No, I don't think Connor deserves the hate he gets, though he is still one of my least liked characters, even if we're talking about the "heroes" (Andrew is the character I actually hate). As much as I think Joss Whedon was a genius in many respects, he was also a horrible man. By Season 5 he'd killed off Cordelia. He destroyed Fred, & brought in Harmony to be the token woman of the show. That's why I hate Season 5, & was happy when it was the final season. Without Cordy or Fred, the show was nearly unwatchable.
I think he gets better in S5 and he wasn't bad in as a baby, but in S4 he was designed to be naïve at the Gaslighting Jasmine gave him and naïve about actual love from friends and family.
@@ginge641 And that's the whole point. His underlining issue of naivety drives everything else negative about him. It's why some people see him as tragic.
When Connor was first introduced it was so exciting. His character had such potential. But the writers squandered the opportunity. They failed to even make Connor sympathetic much of the time, despite his tragic, abusive upbringing. Which really an impressive miss.
I'm really sorry for Connor and all characters because Joss Whedon wronged them. I never forget that Cordelia is closest thing to Connor he have as surrogate mom to him ever since when he was born after his biological mother Darla died sacrifice herself for him. Besides i wish Connor been raised by his biological dad Angel and his surrogate mom Cordelia, not being kidnapped and raised by Daniel Holtz in first place. I understand that he's victim of circumstances because of Jasmine/The Beastmaster, Sahjhan, Wolfram And Hart, Justine Cooper and Daniel Holtz. I wish there's more bond as family for Connor with his biological dad Angel and his surrogate mom Cordelia. I dislike everybody so very harsh on him after what he done. They're thinking they're more better self righteous than everybody. Don't get me wrong. I know Daniel Holtz is self righteous, pride and vanity before Angelus and Darla hurt his loved ones. I know show is over, but imagination lives on to create fanfiction.
I don't know if I can agree that he is the most tragic character (Weasley and Fred are also very tragic). But, I will say Connor had/has the most potential that was unfortunately misused.
Connor was a layered character that was never given the chance to grow. His change in season 5 is nice, but it would have been better if we had two other seasons. This way instead of using magic to fix him if we could have seen him learn and grow on his own.
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Cordelia raised baby Connor along with Angel. I consider her as Connor's mother, because she did everything a mom does. Which add that level of grossness and uneasiness to season 4. It felt like watching an incestuous couple.
Yeah I found that hole storyline in season 4 totally disturbing and gross it definitely sorta reminds me of what happened in season 12 of supernatural It really angers me that joss Whedon would come up with something that sickening and evil just to get rid of charisma he basically ruined her character and the show because of what happened in season 4 the network basically canceled angel half way through season 5 I'm not surprised I even stopped watching the show during season 4 and I definitely will never watch season 4 or 5 again 🤯😬🥶😠😡🤬💩🤢🤮
Agree but gotta cut Cordelia sone slack cause she wasn’t herself.
she raised him for like a week and then he was gone and came back 18 she was like 21.
That was not Cordelia... It was Jasmine.
@@fgcpeak9591 Legit. Cordelia never slept with Connor. Jasmine did. It was all apart of Jasmine’s plan as she needed it to happen so she could create her own body. When people say Cordy slept with Connor.. yeah that was not what happened.
Making returned 'Cordy' a twist villain killed Connor's characterization.
The audience was never allowed to acknowledge and absorb the true horror of being groomed, manipulated, and sexually assaulted by a supernatural force... after being groomed, manipulated, and psychologically tortured by the man who raised him.
For the sake of the twist, Connor is framed as a villain, rather than as a victim, which is cruelly ironic. The audience is gaslit about the character being gaslit.
He had so much potential as a character, and they just wasted it.
And lets not even forget that he was raised in the worst hell dimension in the Angel Universe, to the extent that Jasmine's powers never actually worked on him, he could always see her true form, and he just didn't care. Being loved by an eldtritch horror that wants to eat the world, was just better than nothing. People hating on Connor, like why can't he just get over it. Imagine spending your entire childhood in the worst Siberian prison, abused, and brainwashed, and taught the whole reason you were there, meant to suffer every day for as long as you could remember, was because your father was an evil monster who didn't want you. now multiply that by about ten thousand, and that should compare it to being raised in the worst, most horrific hell dimension in the Angel Verse, which was where Connor had to live. That's not something a teenager can just get over. Everyone was seeing Angel as the wounded dad, but forgetting that Conner didn't know Angel from Adam. The only father he knew for his entire life was the hunter who stole him and brain washed him. I always thought Connor was holding his crap together a lot better than anyone else would. For one he wasn't a drooling lunatic when he got out of the hell dimension, and we know that place effected his mind, because Jasmine's true form and powers were considered common place to him, and didn't work on him.
Honestly, I would have loved a Connor spin off after Angel ended. Connor could have had a second chance to be introduced as a proper hero. without all that papa drama angst, especially since he had started slowly getting back his erased memories, but his false memories still felt real, and the erased memories, more like a distant bad dream.
Him and faith having a spin off would have been awesome and maybe someone like Giles who is an amazing father figure (not counting the monumental fk up they did to him in season 7 ) and doesn't take any crap. I was gutted they didn't do the ripper spin off as intended.
@@teamaang7915 They were going to do a Faith Spin-Off, but then she had already signed a contract to do Tru Calling, because the producers were dragged their heals on the Faith spin-off. Tru Calling was actually pretty good after a few episodes. They cancelled it right when all these really cool plot twists and turns were starting to happen. It totally should have had a third season, and a fourth.
They f***** his character up there should be a book about him and Dawn falling in love and also at the same time having some redemption for their characterization also hopefully someone can make them more likeable freedom from the toxic of of the man whose name I will not mention
Victims turn into villains frequently. Even in real-life. So its pretty realistic.
Vincent Kartheiser's talent still managed to shine through,despite the limited material he was given. Peace Out is one of my favorites of the series. I get why people hated Connor,but I only ever felt sorry for him. He was a mixed bag of rage and confusion,and it was to see why.
I completely agree. Although he's whiney and annoying at times and generally a negative person, I really liked his character. It's just such a dark and tragic story. Episodes like Inside Out, Peace Out and Home are some of the best episodes of the series and they highlight the darkness and trauma that Connor suffers. It's also a great dynamic between Angel and his son and it just fits the themes of tragedy so well by giving Angel a son and then having all these terrible things happen to him.
Such a tragic tale.
I ignored most of season 3 and nearly all of season 4, and really hated Connor, but his portrayal makes perfect sense. He was abused in a hell dimension his entire life. He's completely irredeemable except by supernatural means. There is no helping him. Only a mind wipe.
Thought Fred was most tragic character
Orign in season 5 even more as he shows really gratitude and thanks for angel for the false family he got and bit of stability he holds on and how he thanks angel and calls him dad . Thats so bittersweet, yet really even more hammering home the depth of connors trauma that that makes him more than happy ,
its connor being proud of angel yet so messed up in implication that is making connor happy. Which is a kind a dellution but for connotrr as close as he thinkd he cen ever get :(
Connor is such a classic, poster-child example of Reactive Attachment Disorder. He's always broken my heart.
It reminds me of the mistreatment of Dawn, Joss must really just hate teenagers lmao. Even in our normal world, teens have a hard time adjusting to life. They're dramatic and whiny because they're growing into themselves. Throw in supernatural creatures, dead parents, etc and of course they're going to act up. They deserved better writing and better circumstances!
Yeah I feel for the Dawn side of things. I was okay with her on s5 but s6 was a dealbreaker for me for her character initially. She was acting out in the most outrageous ways that I don't see any kid doing, even for a supernatural show. Michelle Trachtenberg really nailed the nails on the chalkboard screams and I can't formally watch her on s6 without feeling that way. It's like I understand her when I'm not watching her but when I rewatch the episodes and see her and knowing what she's going to do that is stupid, I can't tolerate Dawn at all. Connor was the "love to hate" character while Dawn was the "insufferable child" character based on the way they were portrayed. It's not Vincent's or Michelle's faults but Joss could've made then more realistic instead of weak minded emo rageaholic with superpowers and a girl in a groundhog day loop while being on the worst period ever. The only time they both peaked was at the end of the season when they actually voice their opinions and feeling without holding anything back. That was more realistic for me in the most horrible roads that least up to this time of clarity.
you write this comment as if Dawn and Connor are real people who suffered lmao it's just the conflict that was written to service the narrative and the characters.
In the case of Connor, we are talking about someone who has been raised all his life in hell and is now in another dimension.
In Dawn's case, it's that she's an idiot.
I find Dawn has a FAR better reception with the fanbase than Connor. Connor is tied up in all the Charisma drama and behind the scenes stuff so people really want to fix that (especially in fanfic). But Dawn really only annoys a chunk of the viewers.
Dawn gets more hate lately for being whiney/not action girl when fans don't realize she was brought in to replace Cordelia/Xander as the person who needed saving all the time. Notice in S1-3 Buffy is constantly saving classmates but by S6-7 it's almost only the Scoobies involved in supernatural problems?
@@WonderlandhypeDawn pissed me off in S6. When Buffy went to tell her she might be going to prison because she thought she killed Katrina. And Dawn proceeded to make it about her... I was ten years old when that episode aired and even I knew it wasn't about Dawn, like damn girl your sister is sitting here traumatized already from coming back from the dead and she's telling you she might have killed someone but yet here you are making it about you.
I liked Connor a lot after Angel had his memory wiped and gave him a normal life & family.
SAME
Conner was not given a fair chance by Joss Whedon. He could have become known as a male slayer. Instead Vicent had to portry him as a Jerk.
"Oh come on, you come around for coffee and the world isn't ending?"
Yeah but after his supposed memory wipe it was implied when he came back on the show that Connor still remembered angel. That's the thing about the show Angel and Buffy a lot of the story you have to look at it as a implied approach honestly the creator of Buffy and Angel he sucks as a writer. I'm glad he doesn't own the rights to Buffy and Angel Disney own the rights
@@simonjack9699 Not implied, Connor bluntly says he knows Angel’s his father when they had coffee together. He got his old memories back and they were mixed in with the new ones. Seeing as how the good far outweighed the bad, Connor’s temperament leveled out and was able to acknowledge and show gratitude for what Angel did.
Connor gets the character development in the comics that he deserves.
It also goes without saying that fans of the show already love the other characters Angel, Wesley, Gunn etc so when someone comes in and does them harm they get fiercely defensive. That's another reason they needed to drop a few more redeeming qualities with Connor or at least show a flashback or two of his being tortured in Quor'toth by Holtz...because that's what it was. Torture. Being left for 5 days to find Holtiz was a PROUD moment for Connor...so how long did he have to run around lone in that hell world? how many times? What else did Holtz do to him?
It was bad enough that Connor punched through a world to find his father. Yes he loved Holtz but in the way a lot of people love their abusive parents. It's messed up and with no one to guide him, I completely understand him being lost.
The short time he's with Gunn & Fred alone, they're trying their best but their attention is split between taking care of him, work, and trying to find Angel and Cordelia so Connor didn't even get the type of attention and care he needed. It was still better than anything he had before but with his life, he needed so much more.
Connor didn't even get educated. He never went to school, was never taught how to think for himself...he didn't know how to do critical thinking which made him easy prey to everyone to emotionally (or sexually) abuse him. He didn't have friends, didn't know anything outside of LA or the hell dimension.
People forget how big an impact things like going to school would be. A lot of abused kids sometimes feel a reprieve when they're at school since they don't need to be around their abusive parents for a few hours. They also get to hear about far off places in the world & potential lives they could lead one day...giving them hope. School gives them an outlet so they could have fun or make friends etc.
Connor had nothing but pain.
Once the group finds out about he and Cordelia it's like they're shocked/disgusted but then that's it. They're just confused and trying to stop the birth but there's no acknowledgement of how messed up the situation would have made Connor.
It's just...sad.
Connor was always one of my very favorites since he was introduced. I obviously wasn’t a fan of the thing with him and Cordelia, but I loved his character and Vincent’s performance
Same!! I love him so much!! I cannot hate him. I just love him so much!! Vincent did an amazing job. Especially when Connor was saying very hateful words full of anger yet you could see the sadness in his eyes.
I loved the idea of Connor. I also loved him when he came back in season 3, I wish they could of continued that character instead of the total ruin in season 4. Letting him and Angel getting closer and making Connor Angel biggest love, like they did with Dawn and Buffy. I guess male relationships, even family, frightened Joss.
Joss was a lot less involved in both shows than people think. He only wrote 26 episodes of Buffy (3 in S1). And he really only had 2 seasons where he was on the set of Angel all the time. Joss would plan out season arcs with his writers but they had pretty much free reign.
Marti is well known to be just as big a problem at spreading toxicity in the writing. Spike/Buffy is because of her.
Joss was BARELY involved in season 4 because he was busy with Firefly
@@iriswaldenburger2315 Yeah, but he still planned the season arc. The only thing his absence did for the show is, that there weren't any episodes that gave emotional weight or moral gravity to the Cordy/ Connor thing, coz he would have found a way to show that, and hence address the audience's disgust and horror for it. The story just kept purposelessly meandering around.
@@asthajindal5275 well according to joss himself and the other writers (bits and pieces from Cons, Reddit and interviews) the arc was more or less the same but had a completely different context
Connor has always been one of my favs characters from Angelverse.
If Spike could get redemption then Connor can too
Connor was one of my favourite characters. Poor guy was not given treatment he deserved.
I love that you did this video, because I need more people to support Connor... On the other hand, I was writing a video on this exact topic and you managed to hit every point I was going to cover!
Connor is UNABASHEDLY my favourite character in the Whedonverse. I think Vincent Kartheiser's talents surpassed what he was given. As a fic writer, I also love characters that have potential and I don't think any character has more potential than Connor. I especially want to give you props for not shying away from calling what Fauxdelia did to Connor as grooming and rape. A lot of people just focus on how "icky" it is, without really delving into how damaging it was to him.
I always thought the problem with Season Four wasn't Connor, but that everyone else (in particular Angel) was an asshole. Since Connor was the new kid, he got blamed for things. But everyone was slumming it, and poor Connor wasn't mentally able to handle it.
When people were talking spin-offs in the Buffyverse, I know people always called for Faith or Spike or a Slayer school.... I always wanted one for Connor, because Connor was the character who never got his full character arc. Faith and Spike became the heroes they were supposed to be, but Connor had it cut short. Since they of course never went that way, I ended up writing it myself. Unfortunately it was fairly unpopular, because as you said Connor isn't a popular character.
See, I felt so much for Connor too, and don't think the hatred he gets is warranted, but I also do not see the "Angel was so awful to him" argument that some people make in his defense. Not even a tiny bit.
Don't get me wrong, it breaks my heart because I think if Angel had been really exceptional at communication, and had had more time to work through his own grief and trauma over everything that had, for him, JUST happened with Connor, I do think things could have gone differently. But that's just not a realistic expectation to put on Angel, that he would handle all of the absolute madness life was throwing at him completely perfectly and with perfect understanding of exactly what Connor needed to hear to break through a whole life of having been abused and manipulated.
Angel consistently tried, really *really* hard, to show Connor how much he loved him. He also had to be a responsible parent and show him that his severe and vengeful actions would have appropriately serious consequences, but even when he kicked him out of the hotel, he was still looking out for him, and still proved that he would be there for him when he needed him. It was just such a snowball of SO many messed up circumstances that got in the way of that trust being able to be properly built. It sucks, but I never once questioned how deeply Angel loved and cared about Connor, and while there were plenty of things he didn't handle perfectly, I fail to see how he was ever doing anything but his best in nearly impossible circumstances. The other members of Team Angel, sure, there's some more grounds to say they were harsher on Connor than they should have been. But not Angel himself.
I would read it, I started one too but never got to finish it. What's the name and where can I find it. I totally agreed with your thoughts
I also like Connor for the most part and do feel for him. I really like that he got a somewhat happy ending. I will say in defense of team Angel treating him kind of harsh he DID spend pretty much a whole summer working with Fred and Gunn acting like he had no idea what happened to Angel when he knew damn well where he was so I can understand Fred and Gunn feeling pretty betrayed over that. Also Connor was incredibly racist towards Lorne on more than one occasion. Ultimately they all cared for him in their own way.
@@caseyhart4999 Yeah, it's hard, Angel might have calculated that no one else would accept Connor rather than it being his own grievance. That sometimes happens in real life. Someone at the top calculates that the other staff won't accept a worker.
Also, another aspect of this is that Connor was pretty much equally matched with Angel, and Angel was in turn tougher than anyone else in the show. Connor was really dangerous. Faith wasn't Angels equal I don't think. The group would be very unsafe with Connor anywhere near them.
The violation of both Cordelia and Conner by Jasmine feels similar in awfulness to the violation of both Buffy and Riley in season 4 of Buffy.
The writers did him dirty for most of season 4. I like him in season 3 and season 5 he especially shines. I have no idea why they decided to try and put “Cordy” and him together. Obviously no one would like that.
I mean, if I was a kidnapped baby and raised by someone who wasn’t my real father, I would hold a grudge too. I just subbed to your channel 👍🏻
I do wonder if giving Connor a normal relationship with a girl his age would have helped. Like Dawn. I do ship Dawn and Connor. They have a lot in common. They both feel like they don’t belong and aren’t supposed to exist. Dawn faces finding out she isn’t real and that her family isn’t really her family. I feel like if Dawn and Connor would have met and grown a relationship he would have had someone who understands where he is coming from. Dawn would also have kept him grounded if he could go to her and just vent. Also sideline: if you have any good Dawn/Connor fanfics please let me know some!
I want to see a spinoff where Connor and Dawn leave their shows, get together and road trip across the country fighting vampires and demons as they go. I think they’d be good for each other and could help each other grow.
I love season 7 Dawn as she became a mix of the scoobies in a way that's pretty realistic to how she was raised. I actually think she and Connor would be perfect for each other. As friends or otherwise. But in all honestly, Connor just needed a friend outside the group. Someone he could have fun with and forget about all the pain and death for a little while.
I agree with all of this. It broke my heart what they did to Cordy and Conner..
But.. I want to mention how no one brings up that Darla was a sprint.. possibly an angel.. that means the human soul does ASSEND.. while the demon half goes to hell.. this is HUGE and it's never brought up in show and I've havnt anyone else point this out.
Conner is a victim of joss's toxicity
Especially since the idea for Season 4's whole shitty storyline was Whedon getting pissed off at Charisma Carpenter for getting pregnant. Sick sod even asked her if she was going to abort the baby. Getting so mad at an actress for having a baby you make a storyline where her character has one that turns out to be an evil being who brainwashes people so she can eat them and take over is really petty.
@@Xehanort10 Petty but also kind of... genius. I mean the writers had to do what they did in a short amount of time so they worked around it and crafted a pretty compelling and ambitious storyline. I understand that some people really don't like Season 4, that's completely sensible. I kind of loved it though. Home is such a great finale probably the best finale (besides Not Fade Away) and the scene between Angel and Connor in the sports store is pretty intense. Also, I feel like Cordy should've been written out earlier (like mid season 3) they could've avoided the Connor/Cordy story arc and the show would probably be better without it. But then again, it's part of the show and it gives Angel more depth.
@@Xehanort10 Most of that storyline was intact from before Charisma got pregnant.
LoL 🤣
Most of the characters there were.
in all honesty, i’m not a fan of connor. he’s insufferable and i never liked him, ever since he popped up from that hell dimension. don’t get me wrong he was fine when he was a baby but after he aged up super fast it was just a no. although i do see where all his troubled behaviours came from. he was born into darkness, the mortal son of 2 vampires who wasn’t even supposed to exist, yet he did. he was also stolen as a baby and raised in a FULL ON HELL DIMENSION by one of his fathers enemies who groomed him into believing his father was a horrible person. i only liked him when they erased everyone’s memories of him and gave him a new life. even though it was all fabricated and lies, it showed how growing up normally could have changed connors life and made him… well actually sufurable. even after he got his memories back he didn’t change back into the boy he used to be, because he was able to see both ways. point is i hate connors attitude yet i see where it comes from, and maturing i’m staring to realize that he’s not as horrible as he seems.
I always loved that he got a happy ending ❤ he really deserved to have a family and his parents seemed great 👍 the kid was very likeable without all that baggage. Tragic only in past tense.
I enjoyed Conner. I was only bothered by his relationship with Cordy but truly watching this show from s1-s5 i felt for him. He didnt want to fight anymore and he just wanted a family that loved him. Im glad he got that in s5 even when he got his memories back. If Angel survived that last battle, I hope they developed a real relationship. They deserve it
Are u planning on ever talking about Cordelia's treatment during S4?
Exactly
I really hope that she does I really hated the hole storyline with her and conner I found it truly disgusting and disturbing and evil just the thought about that entire season makes me sick 🤯😬😠😡🤬🤢🤮
@@cynthiaholmes5124 that's the main reason why I didn't finish watching the show
Yeah I had a hard time watching the rest of season 4 and 5 after that to but I did watch the finale of angel though but yeah that storyline basically ruined not only cordelia character but it also ruined angel as well 🤮🤢🥶😠😡🤬💩
Joss got mad at an actress and took it out on her character. He's done this multiple times. Seth says he wants to do more movies, he ruins Oz. Anthony wants to spend time with family and so they turn Giles into a horrible mentor for the last 2 seasons.
Lokking back on the show, tons of actors left early/never wanted to return to set. We Maybe so many of his shows ending at 1 season had less to do with ratings and more about staff complaining to producers.
This video does a good job explaining why I like Season 4 so much. It's so dark and tragic and all the story arcs, character arcs and story beats perfectly line up. Although they basically sacrificed Cordelia's character to achieve this, I still like Season 4 a lot.
Even with what Joss did to Cordelia after finding out Charism was pregnant. The worst season of all
I'm rewatching Angel now and I love season 4. it's the most enjoyable season by far for me.
Season 4 is no where near as bad as people say it is honestly, people just think of the Cordy/Connor thing and think that one scene encapsulates all of Season 4 (even though it was Jasmine that slept with him not Cordy). Honestly overall I think Season 4 is quite good, and would be even higher if it weren’t for how Cordy’s character was treated but they explain what happens to her and she gets a closure episode. It’s nothing like Daenerys or Bellamy for the 100. Complete character change with no build up or explanation in Bellamy’s case.
"Too late. Too late." in 3x20 always chills me to the bone, because of how true it is. There is no way to talk Connor's trauma out of him, to convince him Angel is good, to make him understand what good even is. It's too entrenched, too tied to his sense of self, too late.
That moment is also reminiscent of their final(ish) confrontation in 4x22, "You let him get me. Oh, you let him get me." as they are fundamentally the same statement. It took 25 episodes for him to truly see Holtz as the monster he is, but that understanding was never the balm that would allow him to finally heal.
I agree with this. People crap on Connor but from when he was a week old till basically the end of season 4 he was just manipulated and used his entire life. Connor wasn't really happy until he got his memory wiped and forgot all that. He is great+-
This video is SPOT on. Connor had so much wasted potential.
In a post Me Too era, I’m convinced the S4 story was, at the broad-strokes, the story Whedon intended to tell and yet failed in execution in many many episodes.
First, after reading hundreds of contemporaneous and after-the-fact interviews, I think Whedon’s intent was always an evil Cordelia. The actress’s pregnancy was a timing issue (that could have been lovingly handled versus source of abuse). A complete breakdown in show leadership (also Whedon’s fault for over-reach and neglect) left a writer’s room that was extremely uneven in tone and plot.
But then individual writers/actors give moments of brilliance that show what could have been.
Biggest regrets:
1) One-note whiny teen writing for so many episodes
2) Borderline ‘camp’ evil writing for Cordelia (booming voice thing)
Flaws (in my opinion) that Whedon never thought were bad:
- Angel’s dumping Connor on the streets (I don’t think Whedon thought it due to Angel’s mental state, he thought it was tough love)
- Cordy raping Connor (Whedon didn’t see it as rape, which led to the grossness in addition to incest - remember he was going for Oedipus)
Meanspiritness - because Whedon was cruel
- Cordy’s black outfit
- Constantly putting CC on a concrete floor or cold slab
These elements make me shudder at parts of S4.
And yet I agree with the OP, the video correctly shows there was some tragic brilliance in Connor that could have told a much better story.
I always wished he could've met Dawn. I feel like they would have really understood one another
Connor was not that bad and he was brought up to hate Angel and his team from a young age until he got to know them better yeah.
When it comes to Connor I feel like the hate he gets is justified in Season 4, namely because how his character was written with Cordelia (in that Joss had to disgustingly mess her character to do it) and him being manipulated by Jasmine was really annoying. Yes he was raised in a hell dimension, but I don't feel it entirely excuses it. At least how it was excecuted. I still get a kick out of when Faith kicks the crap out of Connor in Orpheus! However when it comes to Season 5 Connor its a complete turn around. Once Angel got him a normal life & family Connor improves greatly! He actually became one of my favorite Buffyverse characters. I'd say overall Connor isn't a bad character, that's like saying because Cordelia was done poorly in Season 4 she's bad, its just in Season 4 specifically.
I will say though, even at his worst Vincent Kartheiser's performance was fantastic, despite the limited material and stagnant progression he was given, which is truly a testament that even at its worst Buffyverse could still manage in some way. That being said still wasn't the biggest fan of Season 4.
Season four was so bad I really hated it connor had so much potential to explore his character but joss really screwed up his character just to get rid of charisma for being pregnant 😠😡🤬🤢🤮
It wasn’t mainly Joss though. He was busy with firefly… his last episode of season 4 was spin the bottle. The rest of the season was written by others
I'm not really biggest fan of Angel season 4 either too. 🤢🤮
To me Fred was the most tragic character. Sucked into a hell dimension, then to be killed by a ancient demon.😩
I clicked so fast! Great analysis, you helped me better understand the complexity of Conner's character development and thank you for acknowledging the horrendous relationship he had with Cordelia. Love your videos!
Yeah that sick relationship he was in with cordelia was so disgusting and down sickening to me I really hated that storyline just so gross and offensive 🤯😬😠😡🤬🤢🤮
@@cynthiaholmes5124 Hahaha agreed and those emojis are so accurate!!!
@@kris8536 it shocks and angers me that joss Whedon came up with that storyline just to get rid of charisma all because she got pregnant I truly feel sorry for her the way he treated her and her character cordelia was so cruel 🤯😠😡🤬😬😳
This whole video is giving me "Why would you say something so controversial yet so brave?" energy and I'm into it 👍
Season 4 is so painful to watch. Have to skip the whole season for rewatches now. Shame coz seasons 1,2 & 5 are absolutely golden.
"Why couldn't he offer the same support to his own flesh and blood?"
GGGIIIIIIIIRRRRRLLL......
... IF ONLY the world had an answer for THIS ONE!!! lol.
Angel's total rejection of Conner in Conner's greatest moment of need for fatherly love &forgiveness isn't inconsistent with ANGEL'S character, so much as it is a fairly common between parent and child.
Best any of us have been able to guess so far:
We see our own weaknesses in our children's mistakes.
Or, SOMETHING like that.
idk, man..
I think it's tragic that him and Dawn never met..
I think it's tragic the way Dawn was treated by Buffy in the final season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I think it's weird in the episode potential that it was pretty clear that Dawn was a potential, but out-of-the-blue it's like the script change it's mine like Michelle and Joss had some kind of disagreement he change his mind about the importance of dawn. Honestly I'm surprised that Dawn wasn't killed off in the final episode. Like think about it the episode potential like that orb would hit the potential Slayer it hit dawn like what it hit her because she was closer to the door LOL😂
Damn I forgot all about this stuff. Back then, I didn't realize how creepy it was that he and Cordelia were sleeping together. Especially since the non-posessed version of her was a surrogate mother to him.
I always liked the conflict of connor. Everytime him and angel got close and it was just a scam etc it was a wrench to my heart. Loved it!!!
Great video! You're right there was a lot of missed potential there, I'm glad he got a little more nuance in the end at least
I do think part of it was avoiding any comparisions to Charmed and Chris. It's why the studio asked Joss to cut back on the catholosism after S1-2, because Charmed had that covered and so BTVS went pagan/wiccan.
My cousin used to hate conner probably still does but ever since when he was baby and he calmed down and smiled at Angel true vampire face and I loved him all the more in the season 5 finale when he came back to help his father and he made that remark to his father about you show up for a cup of coffee and the world's not ending please father and son finally teaming up
You are so right I hated the way joss wrote the character of connor and with what he did to cordelia conner had so much potential he definitely deserved better and I hated that angel throws him out like that I really hated the last two seasons of angel 🤯😬😠😡🤬💩
The worst part is that none of the Fang Gang outside of Angel ever consider that they might have been a bit too harsh on the kid and expected him to get over his distrust and trauma quickly
Here's why i (in very real life) can relate to Connor......
Connor was born into a situation that he never wanted nor asked for. So was i......Connor was manipulated by the person who raised him to hate his father due to a personal issue. So was i......Connor became withdrawn and antisocial due to his poor teachings and constant emotional exploitation. So did i.......Connor was on the verge of destroying himself before the father that he hated saved him from himself. So was i......So you see, i can never hate this guy! He is me.
Dawn and Connor are misunderstood characters they deserve some love and respect also can you make a video about illyria pretty please ❓
Did him dirty, I was looking forward to him in season 5.
I think the two greatest scenes Connor has is with Cordy in the church and with Angel in the season 4 finale. He’s completely numb and has been hollowed out by his traumatic upbringing by Holtz and the seeming indifference of his father and Angel Investigations. Brilliantly done!
People hate Conor cuz they wanted the happy ending where he becomes Angels loyal son and greatest partner. But that doesnt happen. People say he didnt show growth……sure he did, he kinda grew into the main Big Bad of S4
I did like Connor but his character arc was crazy just never developed . He showed glimpses then he didn’t. It was mad bizarre you saw Cordelia help raise Connor with Angel and then months later he comes back from that hell dimension aged and him and cordeila sleep together… Cordeila would never have done that but we know something is up with cordeila and Jasmine took over Cordelia. It annoyed me more what they did to Cordelias character and only for her to come back in one episode in season 5 and die in the same episode… Also when you hear Connor say to Angel last episode of season 4 “You let him get me” you realise he knows how bad Holtz was. It was so annoying that he knew Holtz lied about Angel and he still hated Angel or just wanted love so much he couldn’t see the love Angel wanted to give him.
However in season 5 you see how great Connor was and even when he gets his memories back he appreciates Angel for what all that happened and understood he did what he did. You get to see he knows that’s his dad and they fight together in the final episode ever even calling him dad. Connor loved Angel in the end and he appreciated that Angel gave Connor a chance to change his memories to have a happy life. Such a shame we didn’t get more of season 5 Connor in another tv series in season 6. However you do in the comics I hope people check that out always pains me we never got it on tv there was so much to happen especially with Connor his story is quite crazy in the comics from what I know and redeeming for his character a lot happens . Story just don’t end when the tv series end it continues in the comics !!🙌🏽
Holtz ruined Connor’s life just for revenge against Angel. Angel should have killed Holtz centuries ago.
He wanted to, but Darla said that keeping the bastard alive and torturing him with the knowledge that he could never avenge his family was so much more fun, and poetic. Holtz was supposed to die an old, lonely and bitter man, but that damned Sahjahn plucked him out of time like a colonial deranged Captain America and sicced him on Angel so he could stop Connor from growing up and killing him.
Jasmine aka The Beastmaster, Sahjhan, Wolfram&Hart, Daniel Holtz, and Justine Cooper ruined Connor's childhood and life.
Things better if Angel and Cordelia rasing Connor.
I really appreciate this. I’m in the middle of an Angel re-watch and have been dreading getting to the Conner parts. This might help make the watch easier. Thanks!
connor was a hard character to like but the potential for how deep his story could go if he was allowed to be the main character rather than a plot device always kept him in my mind. i used to dislike him & dawn when i was watching then both but for whatever reason, connor always had more of a reason for me to keep going back to as a potentially great character. dawn was frustrating ( even as a teen girl watching it ) b/c she acted a bit too immature & that was entirely the writer's fault. it made up for it in later seasons but connor never got that chance. every time he would begin the build up to a complete character arc, the entire story would shift.
also he is one of the few depictions of male sexual assault victims in media & unfortunately it was severely mishandled. no one, not even angel seems to notice or care about what happened to connor. like, yes, cordelia was posses ( when wasn't she in the show ) but in the aftermath, no one tried to help him, no one tried to understand he was a victim in all of it. he was a victim his whole life but he never was treated like one. he was never given any sort of redemption or revenge plot that felt satisfying in any way.
the writers fumbled his character so profoundly it makes rewatching the show really difficult. i always get up to the kidnapping & usually stop watching then pick up once he's been placed with his new family.
The fact that Holtz threw his own child into the sun after she became a vampire shows he has no ability to form connections with family. He could never love Connor because of what he was.
Season 4 of Angel is the worst thing I have ever seen. I don't like Connor at all but this video made me think about it. I still cry when I remember what the show did to Cordy and I would to see more Buffyverse videos 💜
Yeah I really hated what joss did to cordelia that was just so sick and disgusting to me it reminds me of what happened in season 12 of supernatural 🤯😬😠😡🤬🤢🤮
I can’t stand Conner as a character, but I agree that his storyline is a very tragic one. And I do find myself very glad that he gets a new, happy life with a family.
Connor would have been so better suited to a different story arc. He had so much potential, Vincent Karthesier is very good looking and charismatic and they could have done so much more with him. I wish they’d somehow had him meet Dawn, have some weirdness going on between them. (Not necessarily a romance!) That would have been very interesting!
I’m so enjoying your videos. It’s a joy hearing your thoughts, I agree with so much of it!
Thank you for making this video describing Connor and his character arc throughout the show as well as the lack of character growth and the wasted opportunity for growth and expansion of the underlying issues that you mentioned. Even though I don't like the storyline of season 4 between Connor and possessed Cordelia, I've always thought that Connor got a bad hand, I wish the writers tried harder when it came to telling Connor's story.
Angel taking Faith in was very different. Angel had his own appartment. This time Angel has mutliple people he's protecting at the Hyperion and Connor has proven he's dangerous.
This video breaks down a lot of things I seen when first watching without really being able to put it into words.
He’s so annoying but his acting and writing is really good
😢 him and dawn got the sht end of the stick
Wesley was supposed to be the smart one. He let a false prophecy trick him into thinking Angel would kill his son. Then he took Connor from the safety of the Hyperion to his house, only for the baby to be kidnapped and taken to another dimension.
I cried so much for Connor, Dawn and even Willow in these shows. They had suffered so much I couldn’t imagine the pain. Oh and as for monsters it was always damn Spike for me. Great memories watching these with my kids.
Great video really enjoyed it. However the character was written the way he was written and sure his up bringing had to do with his character along with the circumstances of his birth but aside from all that Connor was still a obnoxious angsty moody teenager who when given the chance or the benefit of the doubt betrayed the same people over and over and never made amends or apologized. I get the tragic back story but at some point based on how he was written Angels character got tired of fighting for someone who betrayed him and threw him in the ocean. Fool me once shame on you fool me twice well..
Less development than Dawn, but more substance, if that makes sense. Honestly the only Connor moments I like are the end of "Home" and the season 5 episode where we meet cyvus vail
Jason todd and Connor. Teo dudes that had an amazing narrative window of potential storylines. But was bungled by bad author and lazy writing
Honestly, I saw the title of this video in the Related videos and immediately said YES. I really liked him after he got help, too.
Excellent video! He was a tragic character with a lot of potential that was unfortunately bypassed to be a tool for certain storylines. I liked the character but the way he was written made him not so fun to watch.
8:05-9:00 In defense of Angel in the first episode of Season 4, he did drown over and over again for a couple months and he's not really the most stable minded. I mean yes he was sitting there and was spilling out truths and and seem to be stable since he drank Wesley's blood but he was still drowning over and over again which caused trauma. Within that time of constant drowning, he had various scenarios that pop through his head of meeting Cordelia on the beach, having dinner as a family but Connor is betraying him, and killing Connor for his betrayal and these scenarios are only the ones that we get to see in little snippets. I think that he turned away Connor because Connor was the one person that kept on disappointing Angel the most. Yes Faith try to turn him and kill him a couple times and yes Lindsey did plenty more than his share of violence towards Angel but Connor was the most close to Angel in terms of trust and love. We all saw how he reacted to Wesley after his betrayal back in season 3 so this reaction isn't really far-fetched for me. I think it would be kind of weird if he actually did try to kill Connor at that moment if he actually have the strength to. I guarantee if Buffy killed him out of malicious reasons, he would treat her the same way and probably would have left Sunnydale way before he did. Angel is very sensitive to the people that are close to him if they ever betray him. Especially those who have souls.
The actor who played Connor also played a villain in the show Titans. he was pretty good there.
Wow, this was extremely well put together I did not gather the bit about Holtz when I first watched it.
Despite that I don't agree though. I think some people are unfixable. Some circumstances so tragic we don't see a person being able to break out of them and I think growing up in a hell dimension could be that! The idea of him needing his entire memories wiped temporarily to deal with it I think is fairly accurate. I literally don't think the show creators put a single foot wrong.
Also, unlike with Dawn, the creators of the show seemed to be able to grip the psychology involved. After Connor killed Jasmine, Angel says that he is worried about him because he killed her with no emotion involved. So it's clear there is an awareness of the characters psychology.
Even though it might have been annoying to some the show was cancelled it was too formulaic to go on for much longer... Here's a bad monster, bad monster killed.
Another aspect of the interesting symbology of this, is that Angel takes the job at Wolfram and Heart in order to protect Connor. This is very like people having to make sacrifices to corporations, perhaps even moral sacrifices, to keep said jobs but that protect their loved ones.
Angel made ultimate sacrifice deal with Wolfram&Hart for Connor and Cordelia to save them.
Conner and Dawn are seriously underrated but also wasted potential....I would have loved to have had a meeting between all the scoobies/potentials and team angel/wolfram n hart (or a versus episode)
Buffy - Angel (slayer vs champion)
Willow - Fred (science vs magic)
Xander - Gun (???)
Dawn - Conner (miracle child vs miracle child
Faith - Gwen Raiden (Dark Slayer vs Rogue theif)
Robin Wood (son of a slayer vs slayer killer....rematch)
I am looking to your videos on these characters: Lilah Morgan, Harmony, Cordelia, Fred and Gwen, In no particular order, of course
He was a very tragic charachter.
Connor has the potential to be a great character. He had from the moment of his creation been manipulated by horrific and tragic forces, abandoned, betrayed, groomed sexually and abused by those who tell him they love him. It’s amazing he wasn’t a dark empty shell. But they didn’t give him room to explore or grow.
Counteract that with Wesley’s character arc. Wesley has Privilege and has tried to make is father proud but makes a mess of things but his growth with hunting, losing the group, finding love, being almost killed by Angel , losing Fred and having to work with the thing that killed her, looking at him with Fred’s face. It’s a thing of beauty.
Hey! I love your videos and I was wondering would ever make a video for Paige from charmed?
I am currently working on a script for a Paige video, I'm hoping to have it up within the next couple of months 🤞
If I could change one thing about the character, I would have him discard the name Connor and take the name Holtz instead. This would have made him epically more tragic and helped grab the attention of the audience wanting to know what the name meant to him. He could reveal that he didn't take it because of the man Daniel Holtz, but to honour and remember the Holtz family. The innocent victims of Darla and Angelus.
In a way, Connor and Holtz were both children of Angel/Angelus and Darla. One is born through an act of sacrifice and the other through cruel slaughter. By having this boy take the name of his parents victims, the writers could have combined centuries of suffering all into one character. Every time Angel looks at him he is forced to look at all of his past sins. Almost as if he is seeing his reflection in a mirror and is pained at what is looking back
I am a Connor sympathiser lol while he can be annoying he is a traumatised child and I think Buffy could have helped him.
Just came here to say, that he is the most annoying character.
Nice to hear Pete Campbell’s origin story….
The problem with Angel, for me, was that every season was similar in 1 way & only 1 way: every season started off strong, & finished off weaker. Not that they were anywhere near as bad as season 4, which went from a 4* (out of 5*) to 1*. But I never enjoyed the second half of any Angel season.
But about Connor specifically; I thought he was played wonderfully by Vincent Kartheiser, but yeah... I hated Connor the first time I watched Season 4. The second time I watched it, I hated him less, but I still hated the Season.
Don't get me wrong, there were good episodes during that season. Even episodes I loved (5*). But most were absolute shite!
No, I don't think Connor deserves the hate he gets, though he is still one of my least liked characters, even if we're talking about the "heroes" (Andrew is the character I actually hate).
As much as I think Joss Whedon was a genius in many respects, he was also a horrible man. By Season 5 he'd killed off Cordelia. He destroyed Fred, & brought in Harmony to be the token woman of the show. That's why I hate Season 5, & was happy when it was the final season. Without Cordy or Fred, the show was nearly unwatchable.
I see a lot of my teenage self in Connor.. full of trauma, anger, and confusion
great video!!
this video made me cry
I think he gets better in S5 and he wasn't bad in as a baby, but in S4 he was designed to be naïve at the Gaslighting Jasmine gave him and naïve about actual love from friends and family.
He was far, far more than just naive.
@@ginge641 And that's the whole point. His underlining issue of naivety drives everything else negative about him. It's why some people see him as tragic.
@@Buffy8Fan No. It's his underlying issue of being a complete moron who's terminally incapable of making an even halfway good decision.
The big problem with Connor is that vampires having kids never makes sense in any series it's done in.
When Connor was first introduced it was so exciting. His character had such potential. But the writers squandered the opportunity. They failed to even make Connor sympathetic much of the time, despite his tragic, abusive upbringing. Which really an impressive miss.
I'm really sorry for Connor and all characters because Joss Whedon wronged them. I never forget that Cordelia is closest thing to Connor he have as surrogate mom to him ever since when he was born after his biological mother Darla died sacrifice herself for him.
Besides i wish Connor been raised by his biological dad Angel and his surrogate mom Cordelia, not being kidnapped and raised by Daniel Holtz in first place.
I understand that he's victim of circumstances because of Jasmine/The Beastmaster, Sahjhan, Wolfram And Hart, Justine Cooper and Daniel Holtz.
I wish there's more bond as family for Connor with his biological dad Angel and his surrogate mom Cordelia. I dislike everybody so very harsh on him after what he done. They're thinking they're more better self righteous than everybody. Don't get me wrong. I know Daniel Holtz is self righteous, pride and vanity before Angelus and Darla hurt his loved ones.
I know show is over, but imagination lives on to create fanfiction.
I didnt hate him that much till the him and cordelia thing happened
I don't know if I can agree that he is the most tragic character (Weasley and Fred are also very tragic). But, I will say Connor had/has the most potential that was unfortunately misused.
Yeah, Connor could have been better, but I loved how tortured he was.
I like connor
Every family needs a scape goat
Connor was a layered character that was never given the chance to grow. His change in season 5 is nice, but it would have been better if we had two other seasons. This way instead of using magic to fix him if we could have seen him learn and grow on his own.
How could writers do this to a kid?
In the weeds at Cambridge. 😊
I don’t remember him at all
He's usually in the top 3 on those lists.
connor was complex
This was excellent