Is there fun on Mars?
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- Опубликовано: 20 окт 2024
- On Mars extended review, and a reminder only our short format vids are 3 minutes long
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Designer,Vital Lacerda,
Artist,Ian O'Toole,
Publisher,Eagle-Gryphon Games
BGG Entry: www.boardgameg...
3 minute board games theme Music by Vic Granell
"Rivers of io" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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3 minute board games are J Carmichael and S Rodgers
Also, yes, that is Steph doing the bit at the end. Be kind people :)
Don’t you feel underwater cities is too expensive vs component quality? Been wondering if I should buy it but after seeing component quality, don’t know. Awesome videos and I love On Mars lol. Maybe it’s as always, depends on your taste.
Price is so subjective. I got it at a sale, so it wasn't too bad. And, well, i'd rather pay more money for a good game that looks ok, than a great looking pile of junk. I think i've gotten my moneys worth from UC
Steph did a great job on the song. Very fitting
Be kind? That was awesome! A Bowie parody is the best way to end a video relating to Mars
@@LordKramek Thanks!
“Is there fun on Mars”. Soon to be number one on the billboard charts!
I laughed out loud at that ad timing.
Hahahaha, cheers
Wow. Did not excpext such a personal review and the song at the end. Best video by 3min bg I'we watched. Keep up the good work.
This game got under my skin in a way few others ever have ;)
It does say in the rulebook that you can have the crystals represent uranium if you want a little more realism. It's also stated that their main purpose is powering vehicles but is also used as currency within the colony which explains why it is used for so many different purposes.
I like to think of the spawning mechanism as uncovering these crystals that were previously buried when you survey the land to build on it.
Gameplay wise it's complex and does take some getting used to. But at the same time it's an absolutely delightful collection of levers you can pull to score points and is constantly nail-bitingly tense as you worry if the LSS bonus / blueprint / scientist / contract that you want will be taken by someone else. But that's not necessarily a bad thing as the sandbox-y nature of the game means you'd likely be able to adapt.
I love it, it's easily in my top 5 after just a couple of plays.
Uranium powered rovers..... that's unsettling
@@3MBG haha yeah maybe plutonium would've been better since iirc that's what's actually used on the Curiosity and Perseverance rovers. Although I don't think plutonium is found in nature. 😅
Based on your thoughts here, I am VERY interested in what you'd think of Lisboa. In my opinion it is almost slavishly dedicated to explaining rules with relevant history trivia, I haven't played On Mars but with the way you describe the rules it seems like Lisboa is its exact opposite.
Interesting. The more i think about On Mars, the more i think it actually started life as a "new world colonization" game, but someone at the publisher said "that probably a bit offensive these days". Having not played lisboa, i might have to see if the design ethos in that fits with where i thought On Mars had its genesis.
@@3MBG It's a tentative recommendation from me to you, it has a lot of the hallmarks of the kind of eurogame that usually breaks through to you. Strong theme, fun positive player interaction with a board that feels alive with variables, & history trivia. Haven't gotten many games in of it, it's a beast to teach, but I like what I've played of it.
This is exactly the review I needed to see. Like J, I was so curious about it as it's based on Mars. Thank you.
I didn't agree with a lot of what you said about On Mars, but I 100% agreed with your assessment of First Martians. It totally feels like you're creating a colony on the Planet Mars. One of my favorites
Before I watched the video I read the title with David Bowie tune, I was thrilled to find out you guys made an entire cover!!
That was a phenomenal song at the end. Well done Steph.
The ad break was genius and the points well made.
I think that this sort of abstraction wil exist in many games and we only forgive it either when it's simple (OK they were avoiding the rules to make it less abstract) or with a theme we don't care too much about.
Honestly, it's kind of a rarity when a game wil have a brilliant mesh, and I think you only paid so much attention to it here because Mars is one of your most 'Brilliant things'.
That's not to say that we shouldn't strive for better though.
Let's always strive for better.
Cheers Bez! I think this game was largely a victim of its own hype and my expectations based on said hype. If it had been a cheeky lowbudget independent under the radar game, i may have felt differently.
Amazing video! Really loved the format, the cuts, the ad... oh the ad was priceless! I wish there were others out there who'd dare go against the current and publicly voice their opinion. And talking about voice. Steph, that song was amazing! Made our day ❤
Thanks :)
Great review. Love the format. I've been considering getting On Mars for a while, because I love the theme but everything I've seen screamed fiddly and over complicated. This sealed it for me, thanks. BTW, loved the song at the end :)
I think you should played it. It might surprise you. The whole circle of cost actually makes sense, and there's reasoning behind it. It It's On Mars but could be a game set in any planet. I agree that the planet doesn't play much into the chaos but is still very relatable as a building a colony style game. People talk like every Euro game is thematic and we well know they do not. Although I find the review to be fair I wouldn't let it divert you from trying it out.
Bravo for the "Life On Mars" riff! Flight of the Conchords have convinced me that most of NZ can do a very plausible Bowie impersonation.
DAMN! The song at the end is awesome! Made me laugh so hard, good work!
Kanban is a great game with a great solo mode
THE END IS AMAZING. I love me some Bowie but holy crap, lovin' the lyrics and the performance!
Best end-song in a review video EVER!
Agree, The Gallerist and Lisbo are decent with somewhat more of thematic connection but are still suffer (IMO) with excessive amount interconnection of actions. Great Song and Singing!
I love On Mars. It's my favorite Vital Lacerda game, closely followed by The Gallerist, and I pretty much love all of them if I'm being honest. I can totally understand the whole expectations thing, but I'm on the polar opposite of the spectrum, where I expected something like Terraforming Mars which is a game that COMPLETELY missed the mark for me, but better and I got oh so pleasantly surprised.
I hate the capitalist perspective from TfM while I love the "cooperative competition" that Lacerda games inspire and I feel it fits the theme really well. Meanwhile you hate the idea of aliens attacking on the expansion, I ADORE IT. Both thematically as well as gameplay-wise. A heavy-crunchy-euro-style game with an assymetric all-versus-one PvP mode? That looks dope. The rest purely cooperative stuff is not really my thing, though.
Anyway, we have very different tastes and expectations towards the Martian-theme, and it's sad it wasn't for you, but oh well. Hope you enjoy The Gallerist!
Oh, btw Steph's performance at the end was GREAT!
Cheers Bruno. I reckon my recommendation of Martians: A story of would work for you too then. It has solo, co-op, semi-co-op and competitive baked in from day one
I also dislike Terraforming Mars, but enjoy On Mars
We've played five Lacerda games now, I think, and Gallerist is definitely our favourite. Crunchy, and ... it makes sense, thematically. Discover artists. Buy art before the artist is known. Hire employees. Attract people to your gallery.
On Mars... what? Why this, why that? "Because game." That's not good enough, *especially* for the price.
BTW, thanks for that phrase.
I love Kanban (which I own) and Escape Plan (which I don't); I own Gallerist and enjoy it, but not as much (also, I stink at the game). Haven't tried On Mars, though seeing this throws a bit of cold water on the idea. Played Lisboa (very crunchy); I liked it, though not as much as what I've mentioned above.
While I agree with the message of the video (and loved the song :D ), I do not necessarily with the points made.
First rule of the game designer: if you have to chose between simulation and fun, always, ALWAYS go for fun.
Unless your idea of fun is a very realistic simulation of course, and this game isn't.
I've got the game and been somewhat disappointed by it too but if you start saying "because game" at every BG or even videogame you play, you will stop playing anything at all very soon.
I think the problem with Lacerda's games is that he tries to make so many systems click together that it requires a lot of balancing here and there, which can break the flow and make some of the rules in his games a bit hard to assimilate.
In the end I feel that On Mars didn't turn out to be a symphony like some of his other games, but rather some experimental electronica concept album.
While I did love the game, all of your critique are perfectly valid. This style of mechanisms salad games is generally not my cup of tea, but Vital makes them so damn engaging I can't resist. I'd say Lisboa and On Mars are more on grandiose sandboxy side, and Gallerist and Vinhos are more focused on one distinct theme. Vinhos being my favourite: straightforward but decently complex, just the right way.
Wow, you've summed up my thoughts on this game so eloquently. I've played it a few times at our game group (either side of the pandemic) and every time felt that the ruleset is not aided by any thematic reasoning you can latch on to. I'm comfortable with complicated, I'm a programmer! However On Mars just didn't sing to me at all, as you say, "because game".
Please keep up the extra time series, loving it.
Cheers James. I probably could do one for just about every game, but so far its just been for the ones i feel strongly about. It's easier to do 2 vids on one game for obvious reasons too.
@@3MBG I forgot to mention how good the end song was, credit to Stephanie?
@@JamesFincham Absolutely, i should put that in the description
Another great in-depth look at a game mate. I enjoyed this one. Thanks for sharing.
Cheers mate. Reckon this one would not be your jam
I'm not saying that you're wrong or anything, but what make you say that Mars should be "a character that is present and that is scary".
I'm pretty sure that once humans will start the colonisation of Mars (if it ever happens), there will be no error, meaning that every Mars unknown will be actually know. There will be many redundancies that will prevent catastrophic events. Meaning that food, energy, supply will be available easily. It should just be about how to construct on Mars.
Many people think that colonizing Mars will be like in Hollywood movies. Actually, it won't. Meaning that both First martian and Martians are kind of messing things around, since it will be highly unlikely to happen. The only game that I find more realistic is Terraforming Mars, but as you mentioned, it is a card game which is much easier to make it stick to reality, and even with that, there are still a lot of "why because of game".
I do agree that On Mars is not as thematic as other Lacerda games, but I can't imagine a better economical worker placement game based on the standard and non catastrophic colonisation of Mars.
"What make you say that Mars should be "a character that is present and that is scary".
Because what else is the justification for a mars game if you don't include mars somehow. Otherwise, its just a red board.
"I'm pretty sure that once humans will start the colonisation of Mars (if it ever happens), there will be no error, "
Highly doubt this. We fail with routine things all the time on earth, where there is oxygen and immediate supplies. All it takes is one burned out ball bearing in a gearing house on an airlock and people die. See USS challenger for how one small part can fail and kill everyone. Nothing about the initial colonization of Mars, which the game vaguely depicts, will be risk free and easy. People still die climbing mount Everest, this will be much much tougher.
"Many people think that colonizing Mars will be like in Hollywood movies", not me, i've spent 4 years reading article after article about Mars for researching my own game. It's gonna be hard, potentially impossible.
@@3MBG
I haven't made as many research as you did. But if people are sent to Mars, it will be after a ton of checks, on an environnement that is stabilized, protected, tested for years with robots. With a chance of success very high if people are sent there. Meaning that statistically, nothing critical should happen.
The odds that something happens and result in a situation like First Martian are in my opinion very low. Either it's a success and the Humans won't have much to do, or a complete failure and people get killed. The sweet point were Humans will be able to "beat" Mars on their own while being under critical conditions after a major failure is a dream.
Which brings us to your first remark, colonizing Mars will be a routine for the trained staff, in a most likely safe environnement that would have been tested for years before with robots, with still a chance to get killed. Which means that it's not as exciting as it seems. It's the same with the first men on the moon. It feels great, it was dangerous, but it was a success, and thus, there isn't much more to say. It's like covering the subject of nuclear power plants. Sure, it's funnier to talk about Tchernobyl, but it's not a generality.
To sum up, covering a Mars adventure (in my opinion and with the few researches I've done) should statistically either be not as exciting as people think it would, or exciting but not very accurate. If you want a realistic surviving game, a topic like the one in the game Robinson Crusoe would be much more accurate.
I backed this game on Kickstarter and when I got it I was very excited how beautiful the components and the artwork were. The tray and storage solutions are excellent and I wanted to love it. I could not because I could not immerse myself in the game at all. I sold it rather quickly. Pity but First Martians is so much better...
Great points Jarrod! The more complex the game, the more it should make thematic sense in order to help players absorb the rules. There's a reason why most abstract games have simple rules (not simple strategies necessarily - e.g. Chess). And glad you mentioned First Martians - Ignacy should get more credit for this highly underrated game! Stephanie, you're a rock star - that felt like a song straight out of the Rocky Horror Picture Show!
Really appreciate this format, thanks.
I have 3 lacerda games: lisboa, gallerist, escape plan. I could easily recommend lisboa and gallerist both games are superb, especially lisboa. I thought about On Mars for a long time, but found it to busy, to clanky rules.
I just couldn't get into Lisboa, I tried 3 different times. I am not sure why that one doesn't click for me. I really like On Mars though (the other Lacerda titles I love are Kanban and Vinhos).
Amazing analysis as always. I've only played On Mars once solo. I enjoyed it enough, but your criticisms are completely valid. Still need more plays to come to a decision myself though. Kanban, on the other hand, I feel is pretty great.
I love this game, it's my favorite so far, it has everything I like in boardgame. Your videos was really funny tho! You have compelling arguments
I’m a big Lacerda fan. And he has games that fit their theme like a glove: The Gallerist, Lisboa, Kanban, Vinhos,... the actions in these games make thematic sense. With On Mars, I feel like the dial swung too far towards mechanisms and away from thematic integration.
Yes, yes there is indeed fun On Mars :) Editing to add that you held up 3 of my absolute favorites at the beginning there! Also editing to add that Kanban EV did a fantastic job of nailing the theme with mechanics. Honestly I think it is his most thematic feeling game.
Kanban seems to be one people reckon i might like as well.
That was great. I might even say it was the freakiest show. Bravo, y'all!
I really like this game, but I also agree with most criticisms you have. I like a game where mechanisms are explained by logic because they are so much easier to teach. Brass is a great one there, where they tell you coal must be carried via your network because it's heavy! This game would be easier to learn and teach if they tied logical elements and connected the dots a bit more.
The only point where I did not agree as much is that Mars should be a 'character' in this game. In a game where making anything happen is so complex, I would not enjoy my buildings to be demolished by a random dust storm (even though that would totally happen on the real Mars).
I think my later point there can be summed up as. Could you reskin this game as a normal "old world, new world" colony game without it losing anything. And I actually think it makes more sense mechanically if it wasn't on mars. The idea that going back to the station puts you out of comms, well that makes sense if its going over an ocean. And space crystals? Well that's just good old colonial gold mining. Asides from game art, there is very little Mars in this Mars game. Which as someone who's spent 5 years making a Mars game, probably bugs me way more than most people.
@@3MBG that's a great point, maybe it could have been rethemed in a bit of a "7th continent" fashion, or at least given an extra logical layer (you can't get blueprints or tech on the surface because the supercomputer you require cannot be installed on the planet for some reason... Yeah I struggle too there!)
I feel maybe the designer wanted to ride on a very popular theme here...
Fantastic song! I loved On Mars, and I agree with you that it is not a game about Mars. It's a game about making a planetary station...but it could have been anywhere (even in the North Pole). If you look at it from that standpoint, then the setting and the theme are more linked. But I can see if you wanted a Martian game...yeah, this is not that game. But that song...It's really awesome (the original is too, but I loved the lyrics and the singing. So Steph, you have the Seal of Approval from a On Mars game lover!
Cheers!
Wow, brutal!
Honestly, think you were a bit overly harsh on this (possibly due to your love of the theme). Do you use the same "because game" criteria and expect strong thematic underpinnings for the mechanisms in all of the other heavy euro's you mentioned (Underwater Cities, Brass, etc.)? Point taken though, and I felt the same way playing Lisboa (more just a combination of mechanisms vs. thematic experience). Although people laud Lacerda's use of theme in heavy euro games, they are still heavy euro games at heart and are not meant to be simulations (ie. mechanisms first over theme).
Great video though and keep up the good work! Love the channel!
I think its because i felt they were contra to the game. You can sometimes handwave things "because game", but when its so many, it just makes it harder for the game to gel
I agree, I actually own lisboa and yeah, it's pure puzzle and mechanisms on mechanisms, but they have a thread to them, and in a way because lisboa has such a generic euro theme you don't expect any kind of emotive response or anything like that, it is just wheels within wheels, cogs turning cogs that turn cogs that move a cube one space along a track and everyone goes "oh, for f***s sake" haha I look at on mars and just feel like I don't want to put the effort in, and the thing is if I didn't like lisboa it's no big loss its just another dry euro, but On Mars looks so damn good, to hear the general description of it and to hear the pros (before the huge crashing horde of elephant sized cons) makes it sound like it could've been amazing. I think Lacerda has reached the line in the sand with how fiddly a game needs to be and would benefit from drawing back a bit, I often feel that how he differs from classic Euro designers (such as Keisling and Kramer, Knizia etc) is that they would come up with a central hook, one really juicy mechanism, and then build a game around it, and then slowly trim the fat and smooth every corner and remove any extra bit of faff that they possibly can until you are left with a 4 page rulebook, a 5min teach and yet an incredibly thinky and engaging puzzle where the depth comes from various places but never from straining to remember a catalogue of rules delivered by way of a 40min lecture. Lacerda seems to take the opposite approach, he has a central hook, a good idea, and then he adds to it and adds to it and adds to it and adds to it: another module that could easily have been saved for an expansion for the diehards; another clause of rules; another set of exceptions to the rules that he's added to the rules that where bolstered by the rules that make up the exceptions to the rules that scores you 1 point, so long as a series of additional condional rules have been met. I like my game layers to be like the layers of a cake, all providing something different but necessary as a whole and each making the others more delicious than on their own, but sometimes Lacerda (when he gets a bit too excited, I guess) is more like an onion, so many layers of beige skin that stinks up the room and makes my eyes tear up when you peel back another one. It's a shame because his games have some really cool themes, EGG always go nuts with the production, there is usually a genuinely good game buried in there, like the action selection system in vinhos sounds amazing when you first read how it works but when I've played it you never really care much about it as it just becomes another layer of maths whereas a more classical euro designer would make that the central focus of the game and make the actions far more tantalising and less "well, if I do that now I'll have to pay you so I'll do this first and then do that for my next action once you've moved because it literally makes no difference which order I do it".
It's always said in creative industries that it's all in the editing, and whilst I occasionally want something needlessly complicated, it's always going to be a rarity that it hits the table, and for that I think Lisboa has been his crowning achievement as "about as complicated as a euro game needs to be" and On Mars is the point at which I wish he'd stopped adding to it and began to take things away
I'm just waiting on that ice cool review.
Also great song at the end. Don't know what I was expecting but at least I didn't throw my speakers out of the window....this time.
I'm down with this. I just need a setting that is fun, and have the mechanisms drive gameplay. If the art is pretty and the components are nice, and the game is engaging - I'm pretty happy.
Whereas, theme is much more important for you.
Steph did a great job haha
Kanban EV is really thematic and all actions make a lot of sense.
We all know Vital secretly has the credits song on his music playlist
What a great song!
As a fan of heavy euros your first On Mars video had me quite excited, but now with this I’ve crashed back down to earth!
I do find it ironic that one of your complaints about this euro game is the theme is painted on! I couldn’t help but laugh about it.
I always enjoy your content, it’s always wise and the information is efficiently delivered. 👍
More that the theme is at odds with the gameplay. Like, i can handle games that aren't really trying to be too themey like Azul. It's when they appear to make a real effort to add theming, but it doesn't actually fit the gameplay. So it becomes jarring and dissonant. I want a theme to help connect the dots and make a game more intuitive, its when stuff happens that feels contra to the theme, or just because, i have issues.
I appreciate your creative thoughts. You make me want to wait for your crowdfunding campaign!
What campaign? if you are looking for my Mars game its already on GMT's site just google "red dust rebellion"
@@3MBG what???? I’m totally there! Thanks!
I'll be honest, I threw my hands up halfway through the rulebook. Glad I only downloaded the PDF and didn't pay £120 first. The core ideas seemed nice but I constantly was flicking around the pages thinking "what the heck is...", "why is...", "where was that mentioned..."
In the end I decided (after literally falling asleep at least twice whilst trying to learn the rules) that I had no interest in trying to teach it.
Interestingly, you mentioned Brass, I saw an interview with Martin Wallace and he said he actually played On Mars and wasn't a fan, he said it was far too much for players to learn in a single evening when most players will play a game once a year or so these days. And that's Martin Wallace, he has designed some of the heaviest games of all time, and has made literally hundreds of games of all weights and themes and complexities for decades.
Yeah, I'm glad I kept my money and instead bought about 4 better brand new games
Great point from Martin there. Brass also makes way more sense within its own theme.
So yeah, On Mars was not my cup of tea at all. Who reckons i'll like the gallerist?
I think The Gallerist nails the setting and theme better than most heavy strategy games, certainly better than On Mars sounds like it does. I hope you enjoy it more!
Yeah, the irony here is that the integration of theme and mechanics is usually one of Lacerda's strengths - especially with Kanban EV, Vinhos Deluxe and The Gallerist (each of which is excellent). In those instances, the theme has helped me learn and recall the mechanics and the rules largely fit and follow from the theme (understanding there will always be a few things that are there to make the gameplay work better, or be more balanced). I haven’t played On Mars yet, but based on the play through I watched, I can see what you are saying. I will still give it a try when I get a chance, but my current favorite game of his is Kanban EV. So good.
I was really disappointed by On Mars, for many of the same reasons you highlight in the video. I really like the Gallerist. Where On Mars misses, The Gallerist (and really all Vital's earlier games) hits. The way the rules and the theme interlink is very impressive and the rules don't get in the way of the enjoyment.
The Gallerist I did not play, but if you, by any chance, find Lisboa instead, you will be in for one of the most thematic and beautifully intertwined game system that I have witnessed.
I really don't want to sound like I'm ragging on Lacerda as he is one of top designers, but Lisboa was another miss for me. I found that while much like On Mars the systems were impressively complex and connected, but ultimately it was all in service of the fairly unexciting shop building minigame. For me, both Lisboa and On Mars suffer from 'the juice not being worth the squeeze'.
Also, in his earlier games I really liked the subversion that what the game was superficially about and what it was really about would diverge: like how Kanban is not about who can actually best run a car factory, but instead about who can be seen to be the best by management, or how Vinhos doesn't reward those who make the best wine, but instead those who influence what's trending and make the right connections. Lisboa and On Mars both lack that satirical bite that was such a unique feature of the earlier games. They have a touch of it, but it isn't the same. Luckily the Gallerist has it in spades.
Great review J!
Dig what the longer time format allowed you to discuss. Though I liked the game, I absolutely see what you mean. It's odd because Lacerda often leans into a theme in nice ways, CO2 and Kanban particularly in my mind. Therefore it makes it funnier that this game has magical crystals, kind of similar to Trickerion. Good stuff man, keep up the great work.
See, CO2 clicked with me way quicker and stuck, because the research, deed, build thing makes sense
Loved this video! This format was really nice; even thought it’s “long” by your usual standards, it’s still a nice review and opinion in a relatively short amount of time, with some good laughs mixed in. Funnily enough, I got more excited about the other games you talked about in the video. Gaia Project is in the mail as we speak, and I’m very very eager to try Underwater Cities, I’ll probably circle back to your videos on that one. Snagged Mage Knight Ultimate Edition this morning too (finally back in stock!). The article that alerted me to the restock actually linked your video on Mage Knight, which was cool to see out and about.
Anywho, enough rambling. I’d love to see more of this format of videos sprinkled in with the usual affair. Great stuff, keep up the awesome work!
Cheers!
(P.S. I imagine you’re very excited with all the excitement going on on the real Mars these days huh?)
Oh yeah, i watched the perseverance landing, such a magic moment. Keeping an eye on the updates as they come in. Science is freaking cool. As for the review, long for me, but i try to edit it down and keep each section to making a couple of points without big tangents. Never been a fan of rambling content
@@3MBG Yeah it's tricky to do, but I think you pull it off really well. I think it's especially hard to balance nitty-gritty with opinion with levity, and keep things brief, but to be fair, that's kind of your whole brand hahaha. Kudos!
I'll be keeping an eye on your own endeavors into Mars!
Great video and I can identify with many of your points. To me, On Mars seems complicated just for the sake of being complicated.
This review totally echoes my sentiments. People should try it out on tabletop simulator and see if it’s for them. I think a lot of the hype is because Lacerda is trendy right now and EGG has nice components.
"What are crystals?" it's on the rulebook, it's basically a fictional sort of mineral that colonists began to harness and powers all these operations. I do think it thematically makes sense at least that they boost some of the actions
Yes, its in the rulebook, as some made up nonsense to justify why they are in the game. There is nothing like this actually on mars. That's my point, its like making a serious game about antarctic exploration and having the south pole being full of honey and nougat. You can do that if you want, but it's making your game a fantasy game.
Nope, the reason there are crystal in the game is because he designed a New World/Old World colonization game and then reskinned it for mars, and couldn't be bothered to find something real world to replace Gold with. My gripe is not that the game is bad, its that it has bad mars theming and huge disconnects.
After watching this I think I might move my copy on for some of the same reasons you brought up. I was super hyped for this game when it was revealed and was expecting it to be the game I wanted Terraforming Mars to be. When it wasn't, I was holding out for Surviving Mars but now that it's morphed into the alien theme I just don't think I'm excited about it any more.
I like On Mars but I agree with a lot of your complaints on it especially on how unthematic some things were. Honestly, as you said, setting the game during the colonial era would have fixed at least 2 of the issues. The ship travel part as there were no radios, and the crystals could have been replaced with gold.
The resupply when the colony levels up is a bit more thematic for me as it signals the colony is getting bigger, the supplies also actually count as new colonists also arriving.
This was kinda better than the regular video...Why is more interesting.
Very different things, i like that they also dont step on each others toes. One can exist without the other
Ive been critical of you before but you nailed On Mars. I bought it played it three times and got rid of it when almost immediately after it was released. One thing you missed was the oxygen being given to a player (memory is hazy but I kept forgetting that dumb rule).
Had to cut that for time in the initial review, had so much to include. But it also makes no narrative sense and happens "because game" as well
"that concludes the spoken part of the review.." cue the music... what?? wahahahaha... that was awesome!
Good points, and your opinion is your own! A few things for your consideration though: the lush artwork, great wooden pieces and components, the storage system, and massive feel of On Mars. I also like the frustration of being orbital side versus planet side - I had not seen that mechanic before in a board game.
Regarding First Martians: it is a terrific game in a lot of ways, but the app is already slowly breaking. It lost my place several times and had some other wonkiness. The lack of clarity in the rules makes some of the campaigns a real mess, because you really can’t prepare for the rules since they keep changing. I liked the game, but I’m glad I only paid US $25 for it.
Fair points. And yeah, first martians app has not been good from day one.
Saw Brass Birmingham at the beginning of your video and immediately reminds me of how good it felt playing it the very first time. 😂
Thanks for this. I really like the components of this game but based on your input I think the first game of On Mars would be more frustrating than fun, unlike Brass. 😂
Brass is just, so good. Like really good. I thought it was going to be another dull train game, i was wrong.
i can see your point, but i am more of Board Game Coffee's review about this game.
keep the good work
Well... I've had fun On Mars, and with your review, so I'm fortunate :) No, really, all your points are good, but I still find the game interesting, even if in the end it is, well, a complex interrelated set of abstract actions with the theme never getting very much aligned with them. But can understand your frustration perfectly, and how maybe there is a game still coming that will be that perfect really Mars is IN the game one.
I'm somewhat passionate about this because I picked up Kanban EV this past winter and I was sorely disappointed by the lack of *true* thematic integration in the game.
To me, a game whose theme appears to be automotive design & manufacturing should feature, like so many euro games, should involve converting resources (maybe both physical and human resources in this case, since automotive design is supposed to be part of the theme here) towards some end goal in order to make the most money or score the most points. I realize that Lacerda maybe intentionally avoided designing that kind of game because maybe that's an old and tired formula, but I just don't find what was done in place of that old/tired formula to be thematic at all. I think I saw someone else in your comments described it as "mechanism salad". That's exactly how i would describe this game. Nothing really makes any sense. As much as people criticize it for being overly lucky (the visitor cards), the core of Viticulture makes intuitive sense: first you have to buy grapes, then you plant them, then you harvest them, then you make wine, then you sell the wine. It's a game, not a simulation, so there's some totally unrealistic stuff in there (aging your grapes mostly), but that sequence of stages is.... I don't think you can really knock that too much, that's simply what happens in agriculture and food processing more generally.
In contrast, Kanban EV is literally just moving tokens around the board. I don't know why people think it has anything to do with what goes on in automotive design and manufacturing. It's just mechanism salad with images of cars and car meeples and whatnot.
I think a great game could be made regarding automotive manufacturing, personally I would borrow some ideas from Leaving Earth, such as the testing of a new feature by eliminating "failure" cards, but add in resource acquisition and maybe some sort of fluctuating market mechanism to make some of the resource inputs either more or less expensive over the course of the game.
I need to play more resource conversion style euros and then I'll eventually design my own, better Kanban EV :)
This 'be kind' comment should earn you a night on the sofa. That was great singing. More of it, please.
Oh, i think it rocks. But stephs contributions in videos in the past have attracted some of the less sociable parts of the board game hobby
Thanks!
All the arguments against On Mars could have applied to Project Gaia.
Minerals popped when.... building, digging ? Sometimes you find some, sometimes not.
Not really, Gaia project is deliberately more abstract and not on a specific planet in a specific time frame. The theme is far looser so the rationales can be a lot looser.
This was wonderful on all levels! I love the structure (especially the other Mars games), the humor (ad placement on point!) and the artistry including Steph's contribution at the end. I wonder if complexity gets unnecessarily amplified by mechanics that aren't logical thematically. I have been hearing the buzz about On Mars but always with a 'but it's very complex' caveat. I find it harder to track mechanisms when there isn't a logic other than 'becaue game.' I recently was introduced to Gaia Project, and I really liked it even though it was quite complex. I was taught with a mechanics-only style, but I watched a more thematic how-to-play video before the 2nd play, and that helped a lot. Definitely want to play Gaia Project some more! I get the feeling that On Mars wouldn't be for me, though I'm really intrigued by The Gallerist. Can't wait to hear your thoughts on that once you track it down!
Cheers Kirsten, yeah, ill have to have a good look around for it because its not like his games are in stores here
Oh my lord, that was comedy gold.
NPI made a point in their review of saying "why not just play Concordia?" that they couldn't really answer. How do you feel it compared? I was initially interested in On Mars but I've found too many lacerda games to be mechanically complex only for the sake of the complexity.
Huh, i'd never compare it personally to Concordia. I would also much rather play Concordia, but the comparison is a bit apples to oranges to me.
I'd much rather play, say Barrage or Gaia project though
Hi J
great comment. I do agree with you. The theme is lacking. And it is hard to learn.
I still, somehow, feel attracted by this game. I will probably check Martian a story of civilization!
As for Lacerda games, the most thematic for me is Escape Plan, but the Gallerist is also fun.
This was a fantastic review, I'm sorry the game didn't live up to the hype, but you can totally tell how enamored you are with the subject matter, and how much you want it to be respected and treated with tact. I like when game mechanisms connect with the theme, and this seems to have lack of that. But when there's a theme I love and someone does it wrong either in a show, movie, or video game, it hurts that much more.
The only Lacerda I've played is Escape Plan, which I've sometimes heard called the least Lacerda game Lacerda has made, but I dig it. I don't feel that level of theme disconnection that you're describing with On Mars, and while it's definitely got a lot of rules they hang together in a fairly intuitive way.
It's great that games, as so many things, are so subjective! I really love the game 🤩
Absolutely. If we all had the same experiences and tastes the world would be bland as :)
I'm glad you admitted that it was a subjective and personal problem you had with the game. I have quite the opposite opinion of this game. I love the game and was impressed that with a weight of 4.63 on BGG it could flow so cohesively and still hold a theme. To contrast, I enjoy Gaia Project as well but to me that is a game that seems pasted on and has "because... game" written all over it. Thank you for this critical review because it made me think and definitely proves that we all have different tastes.
Yeah, every review is 100% subjective and someones personal taste. I've never gotten the mentality of reviewers who decide to hammer away at "game bad" in a way that seems they are desperate to convince others that the thing is fundamentally, objectively bad.
On Mars is not a bad game, its just a bad fit for me.
Just like our present situation on this planet, Perseverance is also key to this board game.
Once U get Ur head around all the rules & intricacies AND find another 2 enthusiastic players;
This game will grow on U like a giant beanstalk that goes all the way to Mars!
It really won't grow on me. It's not like i don't understand the game and its component parts. I can and have taught the game to people. As mentioned in this video, i did make the 3 minute recap of the game. It's kinda impossible to make a video like that if you don't get a game. One can fully understand the game and not like it.
One shouldn't need to force themselves to like a game.
Great video thank you ! I'd be very interested in other in depth game discussion and comparisons (as long as it stays quite short)
I actually researched the hell out of this game and decided to pass on it for the same reasons you mentioned. I saw some aspects that made sense but other aspects that just didn't jive well for me. I couldn't justify the price tag for something I wasn't sure I would enjoy.
Interesting. I love that Lacerda games are heavy eurogames with elegant game-y mechanics first, rather than thematics first. Of all the finely tuned heavy eurogames, these still have a Lot of thematic and artistic beauty, without it being the primary focus. The cycle of humans, minerals, batteries, water, plants and oxygen was brilliant. The LSS is sweetly thematic logically, even if not a scientific study. In Lisboa, the streets of the game actually exist in real life, even though the scoring method is game-y. I hate randomness in games and would expect Lacerda to avoid it, even if the theme calls for it. Escape Plan is more random, and I like it, but it’s easily the least fun Lacerda game for most of his fans. On Mars is the most fun. Being able to use each other’s techs and upgrades and score each other’s stuff is such a uniquely liberating feeling. To choose one’s own secondary actions is sweet. But yes, one does need to be a lover of mechanisms first and foremost. Actual colony building would be random and chaotic and frustrating. Luckily this can avoid all that by just being a game.
One of my main points is that an awful lot of work went into making this game look thematic, despite its thematic dissonance. For me, ludonarrative consistency, where mechanics and theme dovetail into one another are a huge part of what i enjoy. On Mars fails here, sure its mechanically clever, but so many of the mechanics happen despite the theme, not because of it. I really didn't have this issue with CO2 though.
It's not even the randomness that is an issue, a have no qualms with low luck games. But a game about Mars where there isn't a radio connection between the orbital station and the planet, and you have to fly to the surface to give orders, that's just daft.
Nice. I would really like to like this game. Vinhos and Kanban are two of my favorites.
Same here
You need to play it to know it.
If you like Vinhos you will probably like this too.
On Mars and Vinhos are both excellent.
Still have my Kickstarter On Mars in shrinkwrap, and have been oh so close to finally freeing it and playing it before the upcoming expansion Kickstarter. Oh, what to do? Play or sell?
I agree with you in general about pointless rules overload and "because game". Advanced Squad Leader has a reputation for being too rules-heavy, but 99% of it makes sense and is thematic, but more important is that struggling through all of those rules and subsystems opens a world of over 1000 scenarios, campaign games, an entire gaming sub-community. "Cracking" On Mars is starting to sound like just a lot of bother to play something that would be lucky to get past the "played-thrice" list.
P.S. Brass Lancashire is the better Brass ;)
I agree with you all the way. I mean I love complex games, the one I love most is high frontier and you know that one is... Ufff ... Yeah. But I love it the science behind it and well its fun to me! But on mars... I don't know, its somehow not fun to me.
Also Im very excited to play your boardgame cause a sci-fi coin system, something not done before, seems awesome 😊
I love that song
finally someone with some sense.
They definitely got the art right if nothing else, I'd say.
Steph! Wow, that was great.
Thanks!
can you do extra time on empires of the void 2 and twilight struggle?
Potentially, i have been thinking about going back to games i've already recapped
Oh man. I LOVE this game...
Hey, I spy steampunk rally fusion on the shelf behind ya :) I just got my copy too. Is that a candidate for a 3 Minute review some time soon?
Yeah, potentially. I got the original a long time back and backed the expansion/remake. It's one of my 2 fav racing games along with flamme rogue.
I really love this game. It’s on my top 5 games of all time. You 100% have some really good points on the misses of the game.
There will never be a better review than this one.
Thank you :)
So this is less like Terraforming Mars and more like Preparing Uranus?
I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE
Hey man I was wondering when we could get more info about your game.
Personally I'd love to see you go through the iterations of the game and how it developed over time to where it is now or may go.
I think you have some interesting insights on board gaming and would love to see your take on design. Also the choices you made and why you made them.
Cheers Henselt. I'm thinking of doing some videos/articles on this sort of thing closer to when it comes out. On our preorder page is a series of 5 articles on each faction and how they work, which has a fair bit of that commentary, at least, it explains who the factions are and why they work the way they do. www.gmtgames.com/p-893-red-dust-rebellion.aspx
@@3MBG Awesome bro will prep some tea and dig through 'em now.
Can't wait to see the video converge, keep up the great work man. Your tutorials have been a godsend these past years haha
Not even joking here, but I was watching the video and at ~4:50 it goes:
Advertisement
You: "It's like when you're watching one of your favorite videos and you get to a really interesting point, and right in the middle of it, an ad plays
Advertisement
:/
Well played
:P
Hahaha, cheers. Yeah, i had to place the ad at precisely the right point, which thankfully you tube lets you do. Which is why any video with ads in random places is a sign of lazy creators :)
Forget The Gallerist. Vital's best games were his earliest 3. Kanban being the pinnacle.
Thoughts on the original vs new version of Kanban?
From what I understand the differences are cosmetic, so I say go original on the 2nd hand market and save yourself a small fortune. Our copy of the original edition was £20, where backing the kickstarter would have come in near £100.
Man, I have to strongly disagree. Game mechanics should service the game themselves. I consistently find that when designers try to add "reality" to their creations it just come across as needless complexity that makes the game worse. I love that this is simply set 'On Mars' and that the designer/publisher had the balls to do what was best for the game mechanics rather than some abstract sense of realism
What it reminded me was the use of the Mechs in Anachrony and Scythe. I remember people getting bent out of shape how the mechs didn't feel like mechs because the mechs were not always constantly fighting (as if we didn't already have thousands of games like that). I hate the insinuation that if people who purely care about mechanics have to settle for AZUL or Splendor and are not allowed to enjoy cool settings, even if they are pasted on.
Thats just my 2 cents
I don't mind paste-on themes. I just want interesting mechanics. To me, mechanics is the first; theme second.
I think you misunderstand. The intent was never to say people cant enjoy games like that. It's just that ludo-narrative dissonance is something that derails my personal enjoyment of games. More than anything else a themed game that also has "but game" mechanics just throws me, because my brain is trying to use the them to connect the dots faster.
@@3MBG You did a great job being fair in your review and clearly many people agree with you. I just wanted to give a slightly different perspective
I commented the other day on a Facebook post that after playing and liking almost his games (not tried CO2 yet), I thought On Mars wasn't Vital's best. He messaged me to explain that I was wrong, it is in fact one of his best and I likely just didn't understand it. I've seen repeated comments from people to this effect - if you don't like one of Lacerda's games it must be because it was too complicated for you, and it really bugs me. Lacerda has been on a trajectory with his games - they have focused more and more on intricately linked systems over time. I think On Mars is perhaps the most impressively designed game of recent years, but its under developed. Vital is super involved in every tiniest detail of his games, which is big a part of what makes them special, but On Mars probably needed someone saying 'No' to him once in a while.
Wait "he" messaged you to say your opinion was wrong? WHAT?
@@3MBG yep, he said I either didn't get it, or just didn't want to like it, but it was certainly one of his best games. Thing is I really wanted to like it - I first played it at a convention on a 99% final pre-production copy, before the kickstarter, with Paul Grogan hosting and Vital on the phone taking live updates on how it was going. I'm from a maths and physics background, so Vital doing a space game was basically my ideal game. But as you say in your video, it just isn't that fun.
I'm blown away by the hubris required to say that. It explains some of the people i've muted in these comments though
You mean that some fan of the game messaged you? Not the designer himself, right?
@@lastburning no, Vital himself.
I had the game in my shopping cart and really wanted to get a great Mars game but decided to watch the rules and full playthrough. Unfortunately, for me, I came away with a similar feeling I had with Terraforming Mars; the game engine mechanics started taking the primary focus and pulling me out of the theme of Mars. Could be good if you want a complex engine builder. I wanted the theme of Mars to be the focus and neither game does that for me or my group.
I love this game. Playing it makes me happy.
BTW crystals are radioactive equivalent of money ;)
"crystals are radioactive equivalent of money"
As someone who's spent years designing a Mars game and doing research on the planet and colonizing it, that makes zero sense. It's like making a game about colonizing the Americas and making the money resource Faerie dust.
@@3MBG there is a disclaimer on that from Vital Larcerda in the rulebook, why he created this "Marsinum" crystals.
And there is also stated, that for more realistic approach one can treat crystals as uranium.
I'm OK with both ways. It's really beautiful game that is still more thematic than (probably) 99% of heavy euros.
It isn't, because it requires a bunch of mental gymnastics like that to make sense. You can enjoy it all you want, but its incredibly thematically dissonant and makes not a lick of sense as a Mars colonization game. But I've already outlined why in my video, which you either didn't watch or paid no attention to.
There is uranium on mars, but it isn't sitting in giant crystals or in anyway easily accessible.
Hey, I watched the whole video. And I get your point. And maybe I wasn't clear in my statement (English isn't my first language, so I'm sorry about that) but I do not argue with you.
I'm just saying the game is enough thematic for me. In my opinnion most of the heavy euros do not bother with theme, but that's also OK with me :)
Hi J, I have to be honest and say that I'm not a fan of this video. I'm not saying that you don't make valid points, also considering that you are a Mars expert. For me this is very close to ranting and it's not the content I usually see here. I enjoy pretty much everything you upload, and if I want to know about a game in short time to the point this is my go-to-channel. I've seen Tom Vasel's Vasco da Gama review (and apology) which I could still get a kick out of, like others here for this video, but there's something here, the stance, maybe the sarcasm, that I don't feel is right. At least not for this channel. Thanks for reading my feedback
I dunno Tim, i don't think anything said was out of line, and i really had to make this video to get these thoughts out. The extra time videos only happen when i feel i have to say something more about a game, good or bad. The 3 minute format, as much as i love it, can frustrate me at some times because i cannot go deeper on a game.
Is that why you dislike Viscounts of the West Kingdom? Viscounts theme is also paste-on.
Nah, i didn't dislike viscounts as such, i just didn't "get it", the mechanics individually made sense, but i just couldn't get them to work together for me. It was like the game was just a riddle i didn't quite figure out.
Lacerda is not a designer that adds a lot of randomness in his games. If you would not know what can be found on the planet surface than that's randomness and there is no strategy to add to the game and Lacerda games are all about tactics and strategy and the right timing.
Which is fine, but Mars as a setting is an inherently risky one. So seems an odd choice for a low risk game. Having mars not feature as a character in a mars game is like doing a biographic movie on someone, and they only appear in the background and have no lines. Its a choice, but its an odd one.
@@3MBG I really hoped that the expansion would add this ellement you speak off. It was called in the past ' surviving mars'. Now it's called 'alien attack', arggg. Missed opportunity I think, this could have so much potential. Will skip this one I think. Hope the Gallerist will bring you more joy!
You know this 'because game'-thing... Madeira has that. On par in complexity. But the game itself is enjoyable enough regardless. Let's haggle people for money, build some boats and get rich of wood 'n sugar. And it has Dice. Dice are Nice. Just pretend it's Mars and you'll be fine.
I think this is one thing that struck me as odd about this game (the variable placement and subjective aspects). Still, I'd love to try this one out on my own one day. I'm not sure it would get played more than once from what I can tell. Still, send your copy my way and I'll get my one play out and send it on 😉
I had to buy my copy, so i will be selling it on to recoup my costs.
Bloody brilliant review! I felt this review to my inner meats. I really, REALLY wanted this to be a great game. I'm a very visual person and it's such a beautiful game and I would 100% get the box cover as a print, so it was a titanic let down to hear that the game itself is such a miss.