WHO'S COOLER? WATER METH vs INTERCOOLER
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- Опубликовано: 27 мар 2020
- FULL RESULTS-BOOST BATTLE! WATER METH vs ATW INTERCOOLER. HP, Torque, Charge temp and Boost (Very Important). How well does water meth injection work compared to air-to-water intercooler? Who cools best? Who makes power?
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This channel deserves 10 times the views. Just commenting for the algorithms
SO true man...YT really sucks a big fat one nowadays with its AI garbage algorithms
Sucky
Imagine Richard And a couple buddies building a motor and car on a weekly TV show and racing on the weekends. Great, yeah.
Wish you had some info for a intercooler and water meth injection which is what most people are using in reality.
Wish you had some info for a intercooler and water meth injection which is what most people are using in reality.
The real reason to use water/meth injection is to prevent knock, not anything else. The most illustrative use of w/m injection was seen in WW2 combat aircraft, both US and German (the Japanese only used it very little). When looking for power what matters isn’t boost at all, but air mass. Colder air has more air mass, so will make more power with less pressure (assuming the fuel ratio stays the same), which is how an intercooler works. This setup used a constant pressure gate, so for the intercooler made more power, but increased knock probability. Water and methanol are both knock inhibitors on their own, so in addition to lowering the temperature they also prevent knock.
This means that when running w/m to gain the most power you need to use more aggressive timing, or increase boost even more. All things being equal, you can run more timing and higher pressure using w/m than you can with an intercooler - but you can do a lot more using both, as an intercooler is even better at reducing temperature, it just doesn’t do anything for knock (other than heat induced knock, of course). The best easy setup is to use as large of an intercooler as you can fit and increase boost pressure until you either get the power you want or become knock limited using whatever fuel you have available (pump gas for a daily driver, of course), then only add w/m if you need more power after becoming knock limited - which should add another 20%+ beyond where you were.
When you introduce Alcohol you change the burn rate and you have to change timing. No one would leave factory timing if you switched over to Methanol completely. There was much more in the meth kit.
You read my mind. Actually I am surprised that it didn't lose power. Not sure how it works on a v8 but day on an intercooled twin turbo porsche 911, power using the same gasoline, methanol injection and tuned for it can increase horsepower close to 100 hp. Spraying before the throttle body. Great analysis but fairly incomplete test IMO. We ought to see timing and of course afr. Guaranteed with the water/meth the car was running pig rich!
@@kouzman he was using it for cooling only.
@@thud93091 but even then you need to review the timing and afr even just a tiny bit. The spray is a whole different ballgame since it will change detonation tolerances completely. It would be great if repeated the test but checking the tuning for it.
This is what I came to say. Meth allows more boost and/or timing.
@@thud93091 well he had to be adjusting the timing as well or the intercooler test would have shown no increase in power..
The meth did its job...I use 2 nozzles well back from the tb at different angles hoping to get some good mixing, even if overall charge temp is lost to some preheating
Awesome! Well done!
Keep up with the direct comparison videos!
You're making isolation bearable! :)
Another great video Richard, thank you. Nice so see real data for a good quality air to water intercooler. I know that you can't test all combinations, but related to this test it would be good to see a comparison between knock-limted power without intercooling vs knock-limited power with a good intercooler. I'm pretty sure that would be a powerful demonstration of the many benefits of intercooling. Looking forward to the air vs water intercooler video, up next :)
I would like to see egts for each run.
Love this channel. Great work, and presented well.
Thanks Richard ! You me help with separating the flysh*t from the pepper when it comes to engine info !
Hey Rich, I absolutely love all the combos that you put together.
I'd love to see a single plane manifold port EFI with a elbow, 103 throttle body with a base plate meth injection, and then run it with and without the intercooler.
The cooler the better you say.
Thanks again for all that you do.
Big fan of your videos ! Guna build me a turbo last set up here soon I’d love to see more videos for the 5.3 and 6.0s ! Your always super informative with proof to back up what you say.Also your a good teacher I’d like to see videos on tuning if you could!
Nice info. I especially appreciated the comment about the intake manifold was designed to flow air only. That point is sometimes overlooked by people.
Great info man as always nobody else gets the details down to a t like u fairly new to ls game in a s10 but if I gota question I come here ... Richard never fails ..........
Richard, thanks for another interesting vid. Especially the insight into wet distribution. It would be great if you can provide details of parameters that influence power. i.e. fuel, timing, etc to help further understand the results. If timing wasn't changed, I suspect that fueling was being corrected to support the denser IC air and resulting significant HP increase. Observations - I suspect w/m IAT measurement was due to sensor being in the spray stream and not a true reflection of induction air temp. Spraying pre-turbo likely to provide the most accurate results for comparative purposes. Surprised that boost pressure was higher with IC? Cooler denser air? Thanks again for peaking our interest with all these tests!
Love your site! Direct and to the point !
I feel in this comparison - the water component of the water/meth mixture is killing the HP and making it not show gains.
You have shown the charge temp is dropped equally (whether its intercooler or water/meth)
So its some other factor. The only other variable is the ‘water’ which is not combustible / chokes power
Juicy info! This guy deserves more attention on RUclips!
Learning so much with every video! Thanks Richard 🙏
I've watched a lot of car videos and these are some of the best by far
WMI nozzles need to be installed on the outside of a 45-90 degree elbow at least 12" from the TB for good distribution. Those BS throttle body swirl thingies actually help. - NEVER put a WMI nozzle before the turbo. It doesn't matter that it's a liquid and the droplets are incredibly tiny, you are throwing mass into blades spinning at hundreds of thousands of RPMs and it does a lot more damage than you'd think.
I couldn't have said it better. Spraying in-front of the compressor wheel (turbo or centrifigul SC) is a fail in the making.
pretty sure it was just an action shot lol
Good thing volvo tested your theory here. "In extensive testing done by Volvo in the 1980’s on pre-turbo injection, they found that 80,000 to 100,000 miles of pre-turbo injection started to wear the compressor wheel" meaning the wear is so minimal that it only makes a difference after 80-100k miles. That's longer than most people with WMI will ever expect to get out of their turbos. You ignore how fine the mist really is. It's not like a water plane getting worn propellers.
as always great testing , answers a lot of questions i had..
I needed this video!! I’m using water/meth between my compound turbos and a FMIC after the second one.
Great video! It would be interesting to see mass air flow numbers on these runs. Also a fallow up video with per cyl nozzles.
I was unaware to the potential distribution issues when adding meth, good stuff Richard you just giving me more to research. LOL
Once again Richard great work and thank you. I'm a little late to the party, however, as a cheap and dirty DIY experiment, why not use a tunnel ram intake with Nitrous plates to inject the water-methanol. Better distribution, introduced early for the W-M to work it's magic and the ability to use the nitrous/gas jets in the plate system to adjust distribution.
This channel is a godsend for anyone scratching their heads on where to begin.
Do a video on different sized charge pipes (2.25” ,2.5” and 3”) for turbo combinations and spool up differences, potential boost creep issues with using the smaller pipes with smaller wastegate vs it working fine with the bigger pipes!
Bigger pipes spool earlier and the shorter the pipes the better the spool again .bigger pipes also create lower exhaust temperatures because they need less boost to make the same power. I tested 2,2.5,3” on a 300hp sr20 on 16-18 psi depending on the pipes size. If 3 inch is better on 300hp it’s going to be better on everything above it . My next test will be 3 vs 3.5 vs 4.
The test was also done with 2m of piping with only 2 90degree couplers on the intercooler so the more bends in any system will make the gains of going bigger pipes even greater
Matthew Barron - No. 300hp at > 1bar is 350cfm+. The size difference and length between 2 and even 4 inch pipes would be so small that you wouldn’t be able to measure it at that hp level especially since a 2 inch pipe can support over 500cfm. If anything, the smaller cross section would spool infinitesimally faster, as it wouldn’t take as many microseconds to pressurize the tube before the motor - because that’s how that would have to work. Besides bigger pipes would have diminishing returns on your application because the TB is so small - a 3”+TB on an SR20 would be hilarious - and you can’t pretend like big pipes with a smaller TB inline could pay off. I’m sure that you don’t have dyno charts, videos, or pictures of this experiment - prove me wrong.
Eric Simpson you’re the problem ! After all my internet searching on the topic I was under the same conclusion as yourself except I do not just accept it as facts. I did the test at my mechanic/tuner at the time and the results were as I said, I later Changed mechanic/tuner and tested again just to verify what i had already seen but we also took data of pre and post intercooler pressures, temperatures and also exhaust gas temperatures all on the same day with in 4 hours. If you had a different approach and just asked to see my results instead of telling me I am wrong when you haven’t even tested it yourself I would of gladly shared but you can continue believing what you assume to be correct with out real world testing. Enjoy
@1999ekk24 Your claim is contradicting itself. Larger diameter has a higher volume. Shorter pipes have a lower volume. Lowering volume one way and increasing it another way aren't both going to improve spool.
Good stuff, this channel is a gem for any 1 interested in Lsx dyno mix
Good stuff. Logical confirmation test would be single plane 4 barrel type intake with an elbow and a plate system for the meth. Maybe Egt probes on each cylinder to as a way to monitor cylinder to cylinder distribution patterns.
3 year old video but I'm just seeing it. I'm on Saturn Sky/Solstice forums where everyone is trying to get their cars as close to the 400hp reliably limit of the stock internals. Max power on the cheap is the goal. Stock turbo's with a larger compressor wheel, larger charge pipes, larger downpipe, and a bigger intercooler is the combination. Some run E85/E47 tunes to get a little more. I was debating keeping the stock intercooler and running water/meth since i can't get E85 in my area. After this video I think i'll just go with the bigger intercooler instead of messing with adding wiper fluid to my intake. I won't have to worry about the pump going out and burning up my engine. Good information in your video.
All these videos have so much great information.
Be awesome to see you test the killer chiller intercooler set up. Using the refrigerant and ac compressor instead of water. It definitely works but compare it to a water with ice set up.
I first read about water/meth injection over twenty years ago. Clearly, the charge air is being cooled, but I remember them saying that the cooling effect happens in the combustion chamber during the compression stroke where the water completely evaporates. I guess their is no practical way to measure this. Great video! Thanks.
Keep in mind the octain ratings, timing and knock all play a role in the real-world.
Which were not taking in consideration in here, though you did touch on it, cause the test was Intercooler vs Water-Meth.
I rarely watch 15 minute long videos, this one is a must to watch!
I like Your Channel Richard, due to real engineer approach to the subject.
I'm glad you cleared up the question of water/meth injection. I can tell from the comments that everything is now crystal clear to everyone. LOL
exactly
@@richardholdener1727 have you ever done any testing using two sets of injectors one set for low boost pump fuel and the other set for high boost methanol?
@@SARJENT. just run e85
I’ve blown my car up 2 times (#7, #8 pistons) running only w/m. Now I’m water to air with water meth and a single plane. Learned my lesson.
I guess you don't get equal distribution of the water/methanol, specially at the rear of the engine. Good thing to know.
Was this an LS engine? Where was your nozzle? Let me guess spraying directly into the manifold, in front of the TB... What manifold were you running and how much power were you making?
as a science nerd, I absolutely friggen love your videos.
Glad you like them!
Was your IAT sensor shielded from the the incoming WM hitting it directly? If not, could this have effected the results of the large temperature drop measured? Did the individual runner sensors match the temperature drop of the one behind the throttle body? Great content as always! Love the data!
Very nice test...I really appreciate the work you do. I dont run intercoolers anymore...I am a water injection guy. That being said.. It is a packaging issue for me. My cars always get faster and pick up boost when removing the intercooler...but my cars don't have the realestate for an appropriately sized AtA intercooler.
i imagine you add timing when injecting water ?
Another awesome video Dr. Richard Holdener. Man o man you sure stirred the pot this time. I would like to hear what Mr Snow has to say, think it would be great input. I would have bet the water/meth was the ticket. I better make room for a intercooler!!!
Matt and guys at Snow are awesome
Would like to see difference in ratios of meth on maybe a high raise runner single plane manifold love this channel always excited to see a new video
Richard, after reading the first 80 or so comments, it is obvious that people are not watching/ listening to the entire video. You said yourself that the long runner dry intake was not good for water/ meth and that was most likely the power difference. You mentioned a single plane or hi-ram setup would be better for water/ meth. You also said more testing is needed! Nice video.
I need to put more info in the beginning
@@richardholdener1727 There will always be idiots. You can't fix stupid...
Thanks for this and all the other. A common mod for a blown Mod motor stang was injection. Svo blower could benefit.
I love that you read the comments. Big fan and been watching for a while now. Ask me how i see this turning out. It may shock you.
I love the comments-best part of doing this
@@richardholdener1727 i think you should capitalize on what you have started and see that you are the R&D guru for us the hot rod community. All others are pushing products. You are basically the lead guy in this area and im not sure you see your potential to reach more .
Great vid again Richard , I run a too small air to air with half the water meth snow wants on a big hp motor with single plane carburetor, have any experience with both running ?
Would be great to do some static load, static RPM tests.
Say 5000RPM wide open. Hold for 60-120 seconds. Test No IC, A-W IC, A-A IC and WM. + water spray on A-A IC
Oh yeah and you really need to get a 3 port mac valve, they've only $30-40. I'm sure Westec can afford one ;)
all of it
This please!
Thanks for doing this one!!! Boost increase probably comes from temp drop. Cooler air is denser air. If intake side is improved, boost goes up. Exhaust side improvement, boost goes down, BUT power still goes up. I'm still confused why the power increased so much with the intercooler vs H2O Meth even though temps were so close. Hmm.
With denser (cooler) air, the same boost will provide more oxygen, thus more power.
I agree, the water / meth results don't look right. The boost and air temp were very close water / meth and intercooler, why wasn't water / meth wasn't much better below 6000RPM. Evaporation will increase volume, so I would expect a bit less power with water / meth than intercooling. Not that much less.
With sloppy water injection one bad cylinder pulls timing from everything g.
Great conclusion. Agree 100%. Water meth is appropriate for an intake that was designed for wet flow (single plane is ideal); if running an intake designed for dry flow, find a way to fit an intercooler.
Great content as always.
How about making a video about turbo lag, a too little turbo vs too much turbo for DD vs Racing.
Keep them coming..
It's really hard to simulate turbo lag on engine dyno because the rpm sweep is controlled and pulls are made a WOT.
@@dj4monie Why would a V8 have less lag??? Mirrored turbos are mainly for aesthetics and might help with packaging. They don't make more power.
@@dj4monie everything you just said was wrong
@@bartpang Agree it's very difficult to simulate lag/response characteristics seen in a car with the dyno - but it's NOT difficult to conceive a test that allows you to compare lag/response differences between different turbos. The SF902 water brake dyno is capable of holding a steady rpm. All that's needed is to have brake maintain, say, a steady 3000rpm while you go to WOT. Repeat at 3500 and 4500rpm. This will create several different boost vs. time data traces. Swap to a different turbo and repeat tests. You'll see very different curves.
BW S366
I pushed every button
points for you
@@richardholdener1727 mr. Richard I noticed a lot of people are saying that you should’ve bumped up the timing on the meth injection
Because of the density and the higher octane rating of the meth
My question is have you tried this I’m just curious about the results and if it did make up the difference to compare it with the inner cooler anyway thanks for everything I know this video is old but we still watch
Snow now makes an individual runner kit,you can plumb your nozzles whevever you want them.they make universal kits as well as application specific kits.lots of options.
I also am waiting to see the results of your pre compressor iat test.
I had a 1993 Mitsubishi evo1 with a manual water spray onto the air to air inter cooler. On a long uphill run in Germany it was pulling 135 on the clock, I sprayed the cooler and it hit pushed 140 on the limiter. My practical proof cooler charge works.
Best channel on RUclips for gear heads
Every time I’m wondering about anything cam,turbo,supercharger,nitrous,E85,meth etc. etc. Richard done tests on it. Seriously Richard you save a lot of people a lot of time and money. Thanks.
WE R ALL CAR GUYS (AND GALS)-WE HAVE THE SAME QUESTIONS
@@richardholdener1727 Your doing a great job answering them all, and we appreciate it.
I would like to see the water meth before the turbo and with the inter cooler, also before the turbo.. Even so very good information for turbo and intake temps to keep in mind..
you don't want wm before the intercooler
The fact of the matter is, water or water/methanol injection displaces air. Even if you could somehow fully evaporate it, the water/WM displaces air.
The air is cooler, but there's not actually more air molecules in the same volume.
But the intercooler removes heat from the air charge without putting anything into the air.
If you had a hugely efficient intercooler, 1 that could remove enormous amounts of heat energy but still flowed well, on a supercharged engine, the air would become so dense that boost pressure after the intercooler, would drop.
Cold dry air is more conducive to making power than cold damp air.
But(!) that water is able to absorb a lot of heat energy when it evaporates.
And it can really only do that in a really, REALLY hot environment!
There just isn't enough time to evaporate a reasonable amount of water in a relatively cool environment like the inlet plumbing and manifold.
But inside the cylinder, even on the induction stroke, in the coolest parts of the cylinder/combustion chamber areas, the heat is much, MUCH higher than the inlet manifold.
It's inside the cylinder where the water can evaporate, absorb a lot of heat energy and in the process, lower the combustion chamber temperatures and effectively increase the knock limit of the fuel being run.
Then you can take advantage of this in tuning. Any excess fuel that is added to try and quench knock, could be reduced. And timing advance that was otherwise removed to keep knock under control, could be reintroduced. That is where the real power from water/WM injection comes from.
Great Info!!!
Ive got several ways i see this video progressing
Thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge. I am curious how well E85 without an inter cooler would work
it works-just not as good as E85 with an intercooler
Very informative. Thanks
Your charge DENSITY went up, even though boost is only slightly different
Yep. And the boost creep is responding accordingly. Should have run two wastegates.
Very educational, thanks for sharing.
Did you pull fuel out for the water meth run? It would be able to handle more timing as well.
Great video
Another snow user here. Been running it on a mixed use car ( some street driving,trips to Mexico and drag strip) for going on 3 years. Not a problem. I have pump mounted in the trunk so its away from the elements. Going to buy another kit for my daily that i want to turn up the boost.
With spraying in front of the compressor wheel I think that may help close up the clearance between housing and impeller. Possibly a similar effect as superchargers get causing a small efficiency jump and boost increase?
I’m not even a v8 Guy. I drove Honda’s my whole life. I have a boosted s2000 making a cute 430whp haha. But I Love the channel man. Seriously makes me what to LS swap something.
My last Honda was a sweet, sweet, VX-gave it to my Buddy Chad Reynolds last year-50=5 mpg Freeway. Miss it so! Lots of Hondas in my life.
Richard Holdener awesome! I had a VX hatch at one point. With the awesome lil single cam Vtec-E, Running on 1 intake valve per cylinder instead of 2 at low RPM to save even more gas. Pretty cool design. With All this LS stuff crazy to think you drove a civic 😂 You’re a real car guy for sure. Love all makes and models. Anyways take care. Keep the videos coming 👌🏼
Wouldn’t the true advantage of the water-meth injection be that it would allow you to run higher boost (and/or timing) while avoiding detonation?
It makes sense that there was not much power gain from WM injection because even though you’ve cooled the intake charge, you’ve added H2O to the mix resulting in a slower combustion speed (similar to high octane gas).
I understand that this test was just a direct comparison, but if the same 2 combinations were run with optimized (and maximized) boost/timing/AFR then surely the WM combo would come out leaps and bounds ahead of the IC combo(?)
Love your vids Richard, keep it up!
IC is better than WM
Back in the day I had a turbo thunderbird with the 2.3L. I had a big turbo and a big air/air FMIC on it. Then I added a water injection arrangement (sometimes I'd dump a bottle or two of rubbing alcohol into my tank to supplement the water). Two key take aways: 1. After a zero to 140mph to zero run, with the water injection, my intake manifold was icy cold to the touch...Not the case with only the FMIC. 2. When I pulled the cylinder head off, the insides of that engine were SPOTLESSLY clean. I mean, clean as a whistle. Never seen a cleaner engine that had ANY runtime.
Hey Richard can we see a real test with water methanol. Put a nozzle 6" or so in front of the turbo test. In my opinion it creates a far better tight tolerance between the cold side wheel and housing than any manufacturer can can get since it creates sort of a wet seal. Also would like to see a 2nd sprayer placed 6-8" from the carb hat it throttle body on a single plane high rise intake that would be more suited for wet injection, those LS intakes along with most fuel injection intakes don't work well at all for a wet intake. Also would like to see these test ran till knock. Would like to see you take advantage of the anti detonation with water methanol vs air to air intercooler. This test seemed to just aim at the cooling aspect which to me would be only half the advantage of water methanol. Thanks for the videos and keep up the good work 👍
Ahhhh!!!! water meth plumbed into the nitrous port on the manifolds, like the FAST manifold. Make an adapter.
I tried on a 6 cyl draw through carby , putting boost pressure onto a sealed water meth bottle that would then spray onto the top of the carby. more boost = more spray, it worked.
I wonder if you have ever done a test where water/meth works? Many have but you seem to have a lot of issues with the systems. You added boost and LOST horsepower made same power as non intercooled run with a cooler intake charge. Very interesting testing. I'll keep looking for a successful test by you. Thanks for your efforts.
it only adds power if timing is increased or you use straight meth or boost is increased
If you have the space and the weight won't kill you I would always prefer the intercooler over any other method. I have pulled 450+deg of intake temp out before with water injection but nothing is worse than having the water fail to come on for some reason and blowing your pistons out the tail pipe. :-(
Fact. That is the chief downside of liquid. Sensors, pump, nozzles.
Would be interesting to see what you get on the dyno with a blow through carb, and no intercooler. As rumor has it, the fuel in the carb, cools the intake temps.
My old Saab 900 spg I ran h2o/meth injection through the individual runners, easy to do with the layed down engine design, ran it with the factory air to air intercooler. Allowed quite a bit more boost before the APC detected knock and dialed it back.
those were cool
Thanks again Richard. Any chance I can send you an LS intake manifold you've never tested?? I really like to see it's distribution.
Very interesting. The IC causing a difference in boost I can see. I don't get the rise in boost for the WM. It's been around for a long time with good results. Anyway, thanks for the good science, this saves me a lot of money. Was planning a WM set up but maybe not now.
He kept timing and fuel the same on all runs. You could squeeze more power with a meth injection
no
great vid.
Hi Richard, great test! However I think for most of us especially with more street /strip oriented LS turbo installs will be running an air to air inter cooler. I know an air to water intercooler is going to be a bit more effective at cooling. However air to water intercoolers are more of a strip only cars type of install for most guys. It would have been nice to also see an air to air intercooler used with a fan in front of it. What do you think the difference may have been? Also I plan on running e85 with my air to air intercooler on my 6.0 going into my street/strip 72 Nova with turbo 400 and twin turbos now. Food for thought? Thanks all your videos are great and teach us a lot with your knowledge and insight! Bob
please watch the ATA vs ATW cooler video
Very difficult to create good airflow/wind over an air/air cooler inside a dyno test cell. In the car, you easily get 50, 75 or 100mph airflow over the cooler. A fan in the dyno cell does NOT re-create that kind of airflow.
Very informative
I would like to see if a single plane intake manifold helps with better distribution
Same here, I'm running a Victor jr. With an elbow on my ls in my 32 pickup build. I'd like to mount the turbo in the grill shell w/o intercooler and run meth I'd bet the distribution would be a lot better and the turbo would have zero restriction of fresh air. I'm thinking single nozzle at the wheel.
for how cheap and easy it is to run a water meth kit. its a win for me. im running a water meth on my 2014 silverado gt45 12lbs with no intercooler.. was there added timing to the engine with running the water meth taking advantage of the cooler IATs, putting the 1 nozzle in front of the turbo should cool the air being compressed by the turbo and have the 2nd nozze at the tb
should do a bonus. and do intercooler with water meth, and WIC with water meth aswell.
Just subscribed, love this guy, like 'project farm' but only big boy engines and measuring real data versus farts per subjective carbon deposit assay per run
How about some turbo testing? I'm very interested in that 7875 next gen vs the Borg t4 s475. Also would like to see how far an s366 or s369 can go on a 5.3. The back pressure vs boost is great info!
I think the s475 would be a great comparison and probably would outperform the 78-75 ...if you use a T4 house with a .91 A/R on the S475
if I'm not mistaken this would balance the inlet and outlet of the turbine making it very responsive...
I would really like to see this test done with port injection water meth, couldn't get a easy reading on inlet temps but it would be interesting to see how the power curves overlay. ProMeth has a v8 kit, with a 9th injector that can be placed in the charge pipe, I run this myself because I have limited space for an intercooler and I don't want to run straight M1.
It would be interesting to see this same test on a diesel just to compare results
thanks for this !!!!!
I think a single plane intake fuel injection system, with a plate style water meth injection system would be the best, if you aren't going to run an intercooler.
James Green but will that give it enough time to remove the temp from the charge?
@@fgchotline3964 yes it will because it actually is done in the combustion chamber- this is possibly why he claimed the differences in IAT seemed somewhat
Insignificant in his test. I believe the true cooling effect from meth/h20 is most notable under compressions/during combustion perhaps. By and far the greatest benefit is from running a combo of IC AND meth injection being the meth SUBSTANTIALLY elavates the OCTANE in the charge and H20 handles the temp drop... Sorry for the ramble, hope I was at least somewhat helpful LOL
Like he said, he'd like to see port injection kits...
I prefer meth but on my DD I have noticed a nice tq gain on Cruze. Hit a small hill with it set at 5lbs and the boost jumps when it comes on even with Cruze control on
If you're an LS guy/fanboy and not subscribed.....you're missing out. Excellent content
Love to see this using E85
I have seen somewhere , e85 takes the need away for water/meth
Az Za E85 really has that big effect on cooling? What IAT temp difference are you seeing on E85 vs no E85? Thanks man
You should try pre turbo methanol injection, Cosworth used pre turbo methanol injection on the XB Champ car engine in the 90's, so there has to be something to it.
On a big budget race car, go for it. On a budget, you don't want the erosion that the water or methanol, droplets will cause. The better the atomizer nozzle works, the less erosion will be seen.
@@aaronnoyb True, it's probably not the best choice for road course or endurance racing, but for a street/strip car or drag car that will see relatively little time in heavy boost I don't think it would be to much of a concern. Besides a low budget build with a junk yard ls and eBay turbo isn't going to have a infinite life anyway. I would bet a cast piston letting go would kill a turbo long before the methanol damaged the compressor.
@@bigboreracing356 Good point. Compressor wheels aren't that expensive to replace.
Ya I surprised you did not put in at least another temp sensor in the rear too and I saw people mention timing which makes sense to me especially with water as well that takes some air space but also doesn't burn well so more timing makes sense to me
i know alot of the big diesel tractor pull guys use water for cooling and ive seen alot of those guys have a nozzle spraying in front of the turbo. I think that is for the most cooling!
Thank you richard for another GREAT video ! I would be curious to see EGT change with Meth,and intercooler, is there a way that the EGT's changed the boost level? I ran a turbo motor,and we took a ton of timing out of it,and the headers were glowing brighter red,and the boost went way up. I guess a million degree exhaust temp spins turbo harder ?
kwik440 yes. It’s a great way to burn an exhaust valve too. Sometimes lower timing is just as dangerous as higher timing. I yank a ton of timing for traction on the street and it has a negative effect on traction because the boost increases lol.
Probably blowby into Exhaust from overlap! Then it burns in Exhaust and Turbo! So you get high EGT temps!
I really enjoy watching your videos. Question, does a draw through system cool as efficiently as a blow through system?
not many running draw through any more
@@richardholdener1727 I was just curious because I had a draw through system on an L20B 2ltr Datsun engine for a while. It was probably used more on smaller engines like motorcycles before fuel injection got so easy
Great tests. Imo-if you are going to inject anything it might as well be NOS.
My setup is IC DP w/m injection. It’s a 108whp difference
Great stuff Richard! Did you find anything interesting about how much timing the engine wanted with the water/methanol? If not, maybe you will when you try the individual port water/methanol injection. I'm curious about whether it CAN make the same power as an intercooled and no water injection setup if everything is optimized for the water.
the WM won't makes as much as the intercooler with both optimized (and both were)
@@richardholdener1727 Thank you!!
@@richardholdener1727 optimised timing?
It would be AWESOME if you test and build a vortec 8100, i always had a curiosity for that engine....excellent content btw
They need rods and pistons 1st thing the stock stuff is literally garbage
I literally (lol) disagree-given how far we have pushed other stock garbage stuff
@@richardholdener1727 our lord and savior sloppy decrees it so
Curious if all parameters were optimized for each setup, including advancing the timing, if water was injected proportional to the overall fuel/air mass, or it was just a dumb-inject constant-flow and settings not optimized for each setup. If timing, for example, was not advanced for the cooled versions, then a lot of the potential for power gain was merely squandered. Also, having water proportionally injected at each cylinder's port would make it so one hot cylinder was not dragging down the entire engine.
Would love to see a pre turbo and individual port meth injection to compare the results 🤔. Thank you for all this data
pre turbo coming