Each signalbox has it's own "Special Instructions" card and it is possible that Hawkesbury Street box was exempt from using the call attention for the Train Out Of Section bell signal. Some of the boxes around Manchester Victoria were also exempt from this practice. It depended on the amount of traffic the boxes had to deal with.
I was a signalman for nearly 50 years . For many years , call attention was not required to be sent before train out of section . And was not repeated back . I can't recall when it did come into use . Maybe in the late 1990's ? But for the most part in busy boxes it was ignored . Unless the boss was about ! 😉
You are partially correct H... The lever sounds were from Platting so you were close. The frame type was of course spot on. The block instrument sounds were from Platting too.
This is a first class video, but I'm normally so stoned when I watch it, that I don't notice the bell from Box A. I wouldn't make for a good signalman...
Ahhh, takes me back to the old days when I started on the New South Wales Railways. Mostly all gone now I'm afraid. I wonder if you know the origin of naming signal types such as accept, home and starting signals. I would assume Britain uses the same terms for controlled signals? I understand their purposes and uses of course and to me the names are self explanatory but these days I teach safeworking to new railway people and anything I can get to further their foundation knowledge makes it easier for them to grasp the principles.
There are still many old lever boxes still in use in the UK . for the simple reason , They are cheap to maintain and reliable and safe . The names of signals has gone out of use. Now they are known by their number of the lever in the frame. So at a box call , Newberry . The first signal which was lever number one in the frame would be be N1 . The next N2 and so on . On the signal post would be a sign with N1 on it . So if a driver on a engine was stood at that signal he would use that number when contacting the signalman in the box .
@@welshpete12 Thank you for the reply. Our signalling has gone a similar direction which is not surprising given our heritage. When teaching new train crew I find that they have trouble understanding the signalling arrangements as it doesn't make sense to them to call a signal a "home" signal. Accepting and starting signals are readily understandable of course but I admit that I'm at a bit of a loss why some were called "home signals". I do understand their function of course but the name intrigues me.
@@trainstrains1 Dear Alchemist, I was a signalman on the Victoria Railways for 42 years, and I may be able to answer your question. On the VR, Home signals, red square ended arm with a white vertical bar, protected Stations, Sidings, Signal Boxes, level crossings, and Junctions. Under these circumstances, the Home ( or Stop ) signal is maintained at Stop, arm horizontal by day, red light at night, and only placed to proceed, arm lowered ( 45 degrees for the VR ), green light at night. I understand the term Home Signal originated in the UK, as the Signal Box , or Signal Bay if integral to the station building, was protecting the "home" location, as the locations on either side are "away". To complicate matters, definitions of Stop signals varied on various British railways, which persisted well into the nationalised BR network. For instance, in the diagram on this video Posts 2,3 & 4 may be named 1st Home, 2nd Home & 3rd Home respectively. Alternatively, Posts 2,3, & 4, may be termed Home Arrival, Home Departure, and Starting signal. As, in the diagram above, Post 2 protects the station, it is a Home Signal, however, as Posts 2 & 3 are only stop signals, and do not protect points or a Junction, they may therefore be named as a Starting Signal, and an Advanced Staring Signal. ( VR Starting Signals control the entrance of trains into the Section Ahead, and do not protect points or junctions. ) To make matters even more confusing, what I would term a Stop signal at the departure end of a platform that protects points as a Home Signal due to compliance with the definition I have given above; I have also read of such a signal in the UK being defined as a Starting Signal , due to it also controlling the entrance of a train into the Section Ahead. In my view this makes it a Home Departure Signal. ( Australia's Rule Books were derived from the 1905 Model Australian Rule Book, which in turn was derived from the British RCH / Railway Clearing House 1898 Model Rule Book. ) The above comments primarily refer to Two Position Signals, as in Australia, Three Position signals could be either powered Semaphore signals, and later, colour light signals. We do have 4 Position BR style signals in Queensland and South Australia, however, these are colour light only. Another point of confusion, is that some British Signal Engineers refer to a 4 Position signal that displays either Red, Double Yellow Flashing Double or Single Flashing Yellow, Yellow, or Green as is appropriate, as a Distant Signal if it is in the rear of a 4 Position Stop or Home signal which protects the Junction . I am of the view that any signal which displays a Red light cannot be a Distant Signal, as in two position signals, a distant signal at proceed, green light at night, tells the approaching driver that all the appropriate signals in advance are at proceed, and the line ahead is clear to the Distant Signal in the next Section. The whole point of 3 and 4 position signals is to allow for automatic signal operation initiated by the passage of a train, and to also give a continuing indication of the state of the line ahead. Therefore in 3 and 4 position signalling, the usual layout of a line is ( was ) that some locations would be controlled by a signal box, and the line between Signal Box A's last departure signal ( usually a Home Signal ) and Signal Box B's arrival signal, would be a section of automatic signalling. Therefore, the mechanical distant signal, and mechanical starting signal, would each be replaced by an automatic signal. Hope the above is of some assistance, Best wishes and regards from Melbourne, Australia.
@@70sVRsignalman Thank you very much for your detailed and very interesting explanation Philip. I had come to the same basic conclusion that Home signals were indeed named for controlling the movements of trains within the Signalmans home location. At least that's what I tell my trainees to make it simpler for them to grasp the concept. I am currently clocking up my 37th year on the railways of NSW joining as a Trainee Engineman in 1984 and being one of the last appointed Chief Inspectors for the last 25 of those years although these days we are called Standards Competence Officers and command much less respect. I am of a similar view that any signal that can display a stop indication should not be called a Distant signal although we have some here in NSW that are capable of displaying Stop and must be treated as a Stop indication. I raised this with the signal engineers who are a closeted lot that seem to want to maintain the air of mystery that surrounds their profession. My reasoning is that if it ca show Stop then it is an actual signal not merely a Distant which is probably related somewhere in its lineage to a Repeater or Indicator. Safeworking seemed so much simpler to teach and learn when the systems were less convoluted. Much of todays signalling seems to be cobbled together to fit a one off purpose. When running an instruction school I tell my students that the first word they must learn is "Except" as everything on the railway is absolute and without interpretation "Except" when it isn't. I pine for the simpler times of the '80's.
@@70sVRsignalman: "Another point of confusion, is that some British Signal Engineers refer to a 4 Position signal that displays either Red, Double Yellow Flashing Double or Single Flashing Yellow, Yellow, or Green as is appropriate, as a Distant Signal if it is in the rear of a 4 Position Stop or Home signal which protects the Junction ." Damn, you learn something new every day(!) I was under the impression that (with a few notable exceptions*) the definition of a distant signal "...is a signal which cannot show a stop aspect or indication." [1] Unless they're referring to the cautionary aspect(s) as well as the stop aspect - though mind you, I've seen some "interesting" discussions on tokens... (*I believe that "In some installations, the wrong-direction distant signals have been provided with 'non-approachable' red aspects; therefore, every wrong-direction signal displays a red aspect when not in use, minimising the risk associated with misreading." [2] There was also a signalling system which had distants with red aspects, though normally you wouldn't approach a repeater at danger under the authority of a main aspect at the previous stop signal.) [1] Handbook RS521 "Signals, Handsignals, Indicators and Signs" of the RSSB rule book [2] railsigns.uk site on Track Circuit Block
Very interresting video - after I enjoyed looking at your video "Manchester Victoria School of Signalling" this video here gives a greenhorn like me a glimpse of how it is working - 5 Stars for you
I'm not sure I understand your meaning . But I will have a go at explaining what's going on. The top block instrument on the right . Is showing a train between B and C on the up line . The Block instrument on the top on the left would be at train on line , ( in the red sector ) If there was a train on the down line between B and A. Think of it as the signalman at B, protecting this train with his signals .
Quick question, say you wanted the train to stop at Signal 3 or 4 for whatever reason, how would you signal that? 3 and 4 don't have Distants, so how does the signaller tell the driver to stop?
The distant applies to all the signals. It's only cleared when all the stop signals following it are clear. So if a driver sees the distant signal at "caution", he will slow down and assume the next stop signal will be at danger. If it turns out to be "clear", then he'll continue driving slowly until he comes to a stop at a signal, or passes the last signal (if all of them were clear, except for the distant).
You're correct, one distant and one home signal would be "enough", but more block sections allow a little bit more flexibility - and also the length of the home section can be very long!
Depends on the line. You would always need a distant, a Home and a Section signal. but maybe you want a second home signal to allow access to a platform for instance. Maybe you have a switch to protect in the section because you have a siding to protect.
On the comutator, the lower is the needle you control to allow access, the upper needle is controlled by the box you are sending the train to. In the movie the train goes left to right, if it had gone right to left it would still have used the lower to enter and the upper to leave.
Least safe form of train working ..relies on the signalman to keep accurate records in the train reg book ..When it is busy this is prone to errors. Also nothing prevents the home starter signal being put to proceed when in fact the previous train may not have been cleared the section.
@@6robertdavey Hello Robert, that was the case on BR from the early 1950s when refinements such as signal reversers, sequential locking, and line clear releases were retrofitted to Double Line Block locations, however, prior to that, except for Lock & Block, which was only fitted to intensively worked locations, so was far from universal; the Safe Working system of Double Line Block most definitely required accurate Train Register Block book entries , and also required the use of lever sleeves. Whilst I am sure that all signalmen who worked Double Line Block / DLB were diligent, ( those who were not were quickly transferred out ), that does not mean that diligent people did not make mistakes, and therein lies the problem with DLB, and therein also explains the reason that BR retrofitted DLB locations with additional protections, Regards
Wrong; the block instruments SHOW whether a train is on line or not; all the signalman has to do is to turn the commutator when trains are offered, accepted, and 'Train Entering Section' is received to have a clear picture of the state of all the sections. "When it is busy this is prone to errors", you say? On the contrary; the main factor in accidents caused by signalmen using block working was *not* due to them getting confused, but because they didn't follow the Rule Book - for example, not bothering to work to Rule 55 (Quintinshill, May, 1915). Having done the job myself, I can assure you that all it takes is to be methodical.
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Each signalbox has it's own "Special Instructions" card and it is possible that Hawkesbury Street box was exempt from using the call attention for the Train Out Of Section bell signal. Some of the boxes around Manchester Victoria were also exempt from this practice. It depended on the amount of traffic the boxes had to deal with.
I was a signalman for nearly 50 years . For many years , call attention was not required to be sent before train out of section . And was not repeated back . I can't recall when it did come into use . Maybe in the late 1990's ? But for the most part in busy boxes it was ignored . Unless the boss was about ! 😉
Ahhhhh... marvellous. Brings back memories of being on relief. Summer Saturdays, hanging out the box window. Luxury
You are partially correct H... The lever sounds were from Platting so you were close. The frame type was of course spot on. The block instrument sounds were from Platting too.
Brilliant Educational Video, I use this techinque on the LNWR block instruments in my local model railway club, thanks for sharing,
Mark
This is a first class video, but I'm normally so stoned when I watch it, that I don't notice the bell from Box A. I wouldn't make for a good signalman...
Very good thanks. Very interesting
It is not yet completed, sorry. Watch this site as I will post a preview when it is completed. Thanks.
John.
This will get confusing very fast if you are dealing with more then one train at a time (on different tracks/directions)
Pretty interesting. Thank you.
Ahhh, takes me back to the old days when I started on the New South Wales Railways. Mostly all gone now I'm afraid. I wonder if you know the origin of naming signal types such as accept, home and starting signals. I would assume Britain uses the same terms for controlled signals? I understand their purposes and uses of course and to me the names are self explanatory but these days I teach safeworking to new railway people and anything I can get to further their foundation knowledge makes it easier for them to grasp the principles.
There are still many old lever boxes still in use in the UK . for the simple reason , They are cheap to maintain and reliable and safe . The names of signals has gone out of use. Now they are known by their number of the lever in the frame. So at a box call , Newberry . The first signal which was lever number one in the frame would be be N1 . The next N2 and so on . On the signal post would be a sign with N1 on it . So if a driver on a engine was stood at that signal he would use that number when contacting the signalman in the box .
@@welshpete12 Thank you for the reply. Our signalling has gone a similar direction which is not surprising given our heritage. When teaching new train crew I find that they have trouble understanding the signalling arrangements as it doesn't make sense to them to call a signal a "home" signal. Accepting and starting signals are readily understandable of course but I admit that I'm at a bit of a loss why some were called "home signals". I do understand their function of course but the name intrigues me.
@@trainstrains1
Dear Alchemist,
I was a signalman on the Victoria Railways for 42 years, and I may be able to answer your question.
On the VR, Home signals, red square ended arm with a white vertical bar, protected Stations, Sidings, Signal Boxes, level crossings, and Junctions.
Under these circumstances, the Home ( or Stop ) signal is maintained at Stop, arm horizontal by day, red light at night, and only placed to proceed, arm lowered ( 45 degrees for the VR ), green light at night.
I understand the term Home Signal originated in the UK, as the Signal Box , or Signal Bay if integral to the station building, was protecting the "home" location, as the locations on either side are "away".
To complicate matters, definitions of Stop signals varied on various British railways, which persisted well into the nationalised BR network.
For instance, in the diagram on this video Posts 2,3 & 4 may be named 1st Home, 2nd Home & 3rd Home respectively.
Alternatively, Posts 2,3, & 4, may be termed Home Arrival, Home Departure, and Starting signal.
As, in the diagram above, Post 2 protects the station, it is a Home Signal, however, as Posts 2 & 3 are only stop signals, and do not protect points or a Junction, they may therefore be named as a Starting Signal, and an Advanced Staring Signal.
( VR Starting Signals control the entrance of trains into the Section Ahead, and do not protect points or junctions. )
To make matters even more confusing, what I would term a Stop signal at the departure end of a platform that protects points as a Home Signal due to compliance with the definition I have given above; I have also read of such a signal in the UK being defined as a Starting Signal , due to it also controlling the entrance of a train into the Section Ahead. In my view this makes it a Home Departure Signal.
( Australia's Rule Books were derived from the 1905 Model Australian Rule Book, which in turn was derived from the British RCH / Railway Clearing House 1898 Model Rule Book. )
The above comments primarily refer to Two Position Signals, as in Australia, Three Position signals could be either powered Semaphore signals, and later, colour light signals.
We do have 4 Position BR style signals in Queensland and South Australia, however, these are colour light only.
Another point of confusion, is that some British Signal Engineers refer to a 4 Position signal that displays either Red, Double Yellow Flashing Double or Single Flashing Yellow, Yellow, or Green as is appropriate, as a Distant Signal if it is in the rear of a 4 Position Stop or Home signal which protects the Junction .
I am of the view that any signal which displays a Red light cannot be a Distant Signal, as in two position signals, a distant signal at proceed, green light at night, tells the approaching driver that all the appropriate signals in advance are at proceed, and the line ahead is clear to the Distant Signal in the next Section.
The whole point of 3 and 4 position signals is to allow for automatic signal operation initiated by the passage of a train, and to also give a continuing indication of the state of the line ahead.
Therefore in 3 and 4 position signalling, the usual layout of a line is ( was ) that some locations would be controlled by a signal box, and the line between Signal Box A's last departure signal ( usually a Home Signal ) and Signal Box B's arrival signal, would be a section of automatic signalling. Therefore, the mechanical distant signal, and mechanical starting signal, would each be replaced by an automatic signal.
Hope the above is of some assistance,
Best wishes and regards from Melbourne, Australia.
@@70sVRsignalman Thank you very much for your detailed and very interesting explanation Philip. I had come to the same basic conclusion that Home signals were indeed named for controlling the movements of trains within the Signalmans home location. At least that's what I tell my trainees to make it simpler for them to grasp the concept.
I am currently clocking up my 37th year on the railways of NSW joining as a Trainee Engineman in 1984 and being one of the last appointed Chief Inspectors for the last 25 of those years although these days we are called Standards Competence Officers and command much less respect.
I am of a similar view that any signal that can display a stop indication should not be called a Distant signal although we have some here in NSW that are capable of displaying Stop and must be treated as a Stop indication. I raised this with the signal engineers who are a closeted lot that seem to want to maintain the air of mystery that surrounds their profession. My reasoning is that if it ca show Stop then it is an actual signal not merely a Distant which is probably related somewhere in its lineage to a Repeater or Indicator.
Safeworking seemed so much simpler to teach and learn when the systems were less convoluted. Much of todays signalling seems to be cobbled together to fit a one off purpose.
When running an instruction school I tell my students that the first word they must learn is "Except" as everything on the railway is absolute and without interpretation "Except" when it isn't.
I pine for the simpler times of the '80's.
@@70sVRsignalman: "Another point of confusion, is that some British Signal Engineers refer to a 4 Position signal that displays either Red, Double Yellow Flashing Double or Single Flashing Yellow, Yellow, or Green as is appropriate, as a Distant Signal if it is in the rear of a 4 Position Stop or Home signal which protects the Junction ."
Damn, you learn something new every day(!) I was under the impression that (with a few notable exceptions*) the definition of a distant signal "...is a signal which cannot show a stop aspect or indication." [1] Unless they're referring to the cautionary aspect(s) as well as the stop aspect - though mind you, I've seen some "interesting" discussions on tokens...
(*I believe that "In some installations, the wrong-direction distant signals have been provided with 'non-approachable' red aspects; therefore, every wrong-direction signal displays a red aspect when not in use, minimising the risk associated with misreading." [2] There was also a signalling system which had distants with red aspects, though normally you wouldn't approach a repeater at danger under the authority of a main aspect at the previous stop signal.)
[1] Handbook RS521 "Signals, Handsignals, Indicators and Signs" of the RSSB rule book
[2] railsigns.uk site on Track Circuit Block
Very interresting video - after I enjoyed looking at your video "Manchester Victoria School of Signalling" this video here gives a greenhorn like me a glimpse of how it is working - 5 Stars for you
When the video starts, the train is in block A so the upper indication of the left block instrument should show red. Am I right there?
I'm not sure I understand your meaning . But I will have a go at explaining what's going on. The top block instrument on the right . Is showing a train between B and C on the up line . The Block instrument on the top on the left would be at train on line , ( in the red sector ) If there was a train on the down line between B and A. Think of it as the signalman at B, protecting this train with his signals .
We call this SGE double line block instrument
7-5-5 John!
Very interesting vidio, however I dont recall another call atention being sent before the train out of section.At least not at "Hawksbury street" box.
Quick question, say you wanted the train to stop at Signal 3 or 4 for whatever reason, how would you signal that? 3 and 4 don't have Distants, so how does the signaller tell the driver to stop?
The distant applies to all the signals. It's only cleared when all the stop signals following it are clear.
So if a driver sees the distant signal at "caution", he will slow down and assume the next stop signal will be at danger. If it turns out to be "clear", then he'll continue driving slowly until he comes to a stop at a signal, or passes the last signal (if all of them were clear, except for the distant).
Why are there 4 signals? A distand and one home signal woud be enough i think.
You're correct, one distant and one home signal would be "enough", but more block sections allow a little bit more flexibility - and also the length of the home section can be very long!
Depends on the line.
You would always need a distant, a Home and a Section signal. but maybe you want a second home signal to allow access to a platform for instance. Maybe you have a switch to protect in the section because you have a siding to protect.
Why did the train approach B on the lower track indicator and leave on the upper one?
On the comutator, the lower is the needle you control to allow access, the upper needle is controlled by the box you are sending the train to.
In the movie the train goes left to right, if it had gone right to left it would still have used the lower to enter and the upper to leave.
Least safe form of train working ..relies on the signalman to keep accurate records in the train reg book ..When it is busy this is prone to errors. Also nothing prevents the home starter signal being put to proceed when in fact the previous train may not have been cleared the section.
Most Section signals (home starter, as you called it) require a Line Clear Release from the box ahead and cannot just be set to proceed on a whim.
@@6robertdavey
Hello Robert,
that was the case on BR from the early 1950s when refinements such as signal reversers, sequential locking, and line clear releases were retrofitted to Double Line Block locations, however, prior to that, except for Lock & Block, which was only fitted to intensively worked locations, so was far from universal; the Safe Working system of Double Line Block most definitely required accurate Train Register Block book entries , and also required the use of lever sleeves.
Whilst I am sure that all signalmen who worked Double Line Block / DLB were diligent, ( those who were not were quickly transferred out ), that does not mean that diligent people did not make mistakes, and therein lies the problem with DLB, and therein also explains the reason that BR retrofitted DLB locations with additional protections,
Regards
Wrong; the block instruments SHOW whether a train is on line or not; all the signalman has to do is to turn the commutator when trains are offered, accepted, and 'Train Entering Section' is received to have a clear picture of the state of all the sections. "When it is busy this is prone to errors", you say? On the contrary; the main factor in accidents caused by signalmen using block working was *not* due to them getting confused, but because they didn't follow the Rule Book - for example, not bothering to work to Rule 55 (Quintinshill, May, 1915). Having done the job myself, I can assure you that all it takes is to be methodical.
The first 36 seconds explained the entire concept. The rest is just fluff
Lost me within 36 seconds
Terrorists must not know about Track Ciruits.