*Even if 2nd Ed AD&D is your preferred edition, I would still invest in a 1st Ed AD&D **_Dungeon Master's Guide,_** as whatever edition you play, it is a truly invaluable resource, with mountains of useful tables, descriptions, insights, and possibilities, and no DM's Guide from any later edition can match the amount of coolness within Gygax's original masterpiece. And the 1st Ed **_Monster Manual, Fiend Folio, Monster Manual II,_** and the 1st printing of **_Deities & Demigods,_** includes many gods, devils, demons, and other entities that were removed from later editions, as Loretta Williams at TSR with 2nd Ed, and then Independent Wizards of the Coast, and WotC under Hasbro, ALL have tried to distance D&D from the 80's **_Satanic Panic,_** and then later tried to keep it as "family friendly" and inoffensive as possible, so those 1st Ed resource books have grimdark edge that no other edition offers.*
You are promoting 2ed, you can be drooling out of the side of your mouth and you will still get a like on this video from me. I appreciate what you are doing here.
When I think of Old School Revival/Renaissance, 2nd edition is not what immediately comes to mind. But I agree that the split between 2nd and 3rd is a logical marker between Old School and modern D&D. It marks the point where Wizards of the Coast took the reins with a, I guess, different vision for the game and its direction. It also represents the departure from THAC0, a distinct feature of old role playing and perhaps a carry over from war gaming.
Forgot to mention one other thing you missed. Resource management. In 5e, everyone has darkvision, good berry, and someone in the party has mage hand, so no need for torches, food, or a 10' pole. I remember being on one adventure recently, and I thought of an idea that involved a 10' pole, and I asked my party members if anyone had one, and they laughed at my crazy question. Why would anyone have a ten foot pole? Why would you own something like that etc... No need for it to poke at the pile of rags in the corner of the room, that is what your mage hand or familiar is for. You never have that fear of being 1.5 hours deep into a dungeon, and only have two torches left, and hope that you can get out of it without getting lost on the way, and finding yourself lost in the dark. You don't have to worry about rations, or foraging for food, because your druid just gives everyone a good beery for your breakfast etc..
I like both styles of game. My question is, why does having a 10ft" pole to poke the ground represent gripping gameplay? Or is it because of the pace of play, slowly going through the dungeon and being safe, while risking random encounters Vs running mad through the place fleeing a deadly monster while hoping that your 15 save Vs wand will get you out of pit trap trouble?
@@troyschnierer2940I like both as well. I play in a few 5e campaigns that I enjoy immensely, but I do find myself gravitating towards the older games, that are a bit more grounded and less superheroish especially at low levels. Adds more tension, and is more relateable IMO. Then when you progress to higher levels where you are indeed very powerful, that power and epic nature feels far more earned.
@@peadarruane6582 I play a lot of Forbidden Lands solo and love the hexcrawl / survival aspects. Mundane food picking and hunting while traveling across the map I really love. The superhero feel is spot on with 5th edition. Just started up a game in person for 5th ed and we'll see how it goes. I want to make it a bit more grounded (through slow natural healing and some other house rules) but wonder if my players are up for that. Going to try and get my high school friends to give Basic Fantasy and some modules a go soon, fingers crossed.
1. Who says 2nd Ed. AD&D isn't Old-School? 2. I would argue that at this point 3.5 IS Old-School. I wrote an essay on the topic about a year ago, which I posted on several forums and social media sites. That essay received a very large amount of positive feedback, and agreement. At one point, the TiKTok had over 500,000 likes (I've since deleted that account), so I'm not in the minority on this.
for those confused about how old school is but isnt rules-light at the same time - modern dnd traded in a lot of the game system rules bloat from AD&D, and took on character and class ability bloat. This results in a lot of choice paralysis, build-centric players playing build-centric games, and raised generations of players who only think to do things based on what their character sheet says. old school DnD doesnt turn socializing into an attack roll like modern DnD does, so it's far more important for players to describe what actions and behaviors they take on to persuade, deceive, or intimidate NPCs.
Oh the pain! I threw out my 2nd ed books which were in near mint condition. 😭 I'm a huge fan of Dolmenwood which should pretty soon open to late pledges.
I mean, TECHNICALLY you can call 3/3.5 old school now because it came out 30 years ago, god I just made myself feel old saying that. I played some 2e DnD with a friend, but we mostly played Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. I played Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, and found Neverwinter Nights, which had me hooked forever on DnD. I have LOTS of books for 3/3.5 but I've always wanted to go back to older styles. I'm just now getting into 1e/2e DnD and might even run a campaign in the near future with those older styles, so this video is awesome for that!
Great video! I am sure I played some AD&D (My Dm was my Dad, and has been playing since the 80's), but I cut my teeth on 3.5/Pathfinder. I love the role playing heavy and descriptive, heroic, problem solving world of classic. Thank you!
very good summary of the essence of old school play. Big BECMI fan myself rather than AD&D, but they definitely share common themes. Trying to get a few of my 5e mates to give BECMI a go. Videos like this are great in putting into words the things about the older game that are the 'itch' that I don't find 5e scratches, though the one 5e campaign I'm in, even though his favoured system is 5e, he started out with Basic and 1st ed, and has imported things like morale into his 5e games.
I’m so glad I kept all my 1st edition books and modules. The settings are all in with them. Greyhawk, Mystara, Forgotten Realms. Judges Guild and various others. Cities of Harn. . Even picked lot of MERP , Middle Earth. Oh yes I did subscribe. Thanks , old school for me all the way.
our game in Arden Vul uses the Death and Dismemberment rules when you hit 0 hp. Sometimes death is preferable BUT it adds a fun mechanic in combat. Thats only for pcs though.
I think i need to take another look at that rule. I've been going between a simpler d8 roll system and a bit more complex table I created a few years back. I would like it to be such that as a DM i can have it in my head and not need another table handy at the table but a bit more complex system allows for more fun results. I don't like the dead at 0 hp, but I don't like most alternatives either.
Except some time I would love to play raw and really try to survive and get the treasure. It's just not what I usually want out of an rpg. Enough lethality to keep things exciting but not quite the gamble.
I started off with D&D and still have my white box. I didn't play it too much because we alternated with Empire of the Petal Throne (EPT) which we preferred. I moved for work and played more D&D and AD&D when it came out as well as EPT. The new city had a very large gaming community and I once counted something like 80 different RPGs I had played. I moved back to my original city and play EPT, Pathfinder, 5th Ed and Scion. As a minimaxer Pathfinder is my favourite system.
To be fair to skills, 1e AD&D had a secondary skill list on p12 of the DMG and 2e carried that list over and added non-weapon proficiencies. The skills in 3.5e and 5e are an extension of that. Great video!
most of this I had no idea what your saying but at the same time i learned alot!!! I love the change of channel plan and hope to see tutorials to help going forward!
I saw a video on Thac0 the other day that opened my eyes. They said the beauty of Thac0 is that I keeps the values within the values of the 20 sided die. I hear in 5e it can go beyond the 20 values where a negative number for armor is rare and magical.
That’s very true. It keeps it within the scope of the numerical values of a d20. “Modern” D&D (from 3e onwards, including Pathfinder) expands it well beyond the value of 20
Using THAC0 with AC -6 and such rapidly skews proportions. A level 0 townie should have a chance to hit a bloke in heavy armour. Not big but it should be there.
Not playing in the same team (DCC), still very good video doing a great job at describing most fundamental differences between new and old school. Useful and well done!
Being roughly around your age, I started also with 2nd edition and can remember basic red box set my step brother had too. We always used roll below ability checks in a d20 for stuff like perception (Wisdom ability check or an Intelligence). Or any other checks. It would be , what do you want to do and what ability correlates with that the most. It's in the books to do that. It didn't used to be in very early editions mind you.
There’s no edition of D&D i would run as-written, but 2e is easiest to fix. Ascending AC & attack bonus instead of THAC0, then grab a few feats for warrior classes from 5e. A bit more hp for overnight rests, & a save vs death at zero hp, & you’re good to go. Also: give XP fr monsters slain & for gold _spent,_ so they, you know, spend it.
I'm thinking about taking my players through Night Below after we play His Majesty the Worm a little bit. I also have the pdfs of TAGDQ from drivethrurpg and I'm also considering running that using OSE. I think only one other of my players started their ttrpg journey with AD&D 2e, the rest with 3.5 or 5e. I've been running them through the OSR gauntlet lately (Outcast Silver Raiders, Mörk Borg) and they have really enjoyed it.
Random encounter means random not "balanced !!" so yep... this is the nature of things. Maybe it's not your day and you should retreat / clear off / run away ... Great content.
Awesome review. I have sent a link to my 5E group I am weaning off wotc. It should probably be mentioned that some games like OSRIC and Basic Fantasy Game are free if you just want to use the pdfs.
It's just the dice math simplified "You need to hit a 13, you have +7, 13-7=6, you need a 6 at least" The first time you see it it's bizarre but it's the above example in inverse and centered around a 0, the 13 might be a -2, you need to get to this -2 to hit
@@elgatochurrothat... That's not how it's done. THAC0 is To Hit Armor Class Zero. Your THAC0 for a 1st level fighter is 20. You must roll a 20 to hit AC 0. 20-0=20 But say you want to hit an orc with an AC 8. 20 - 8 = 12. You need to roll a 12 to hit the orc. Then you go up a level and your THACO changes to 19. You're fighting the same orc with AC 8. You need 11 to hit it. 19 - 8 = 11. And so on. Part of the problem is newer players looking at descending AC don't understand it. Back in the old days of miniatures TT wargames, the best armor was 1st class. It had an AC of 1. An unarmored truck might have an AC of 9 or 10. Think of it like a top 10 list. The best armor is 1st place among the types of armor and the worst is 10. To Hit was "pre-rendered" on your character sheet but then someone figured out THAC0 just simplified it.
Insight is just a Wisdom check. The only time there is a difference is when you have proficiency in insight. So yes, you can do insight checks in 1e/2e; the DM just asks for a wisdom check and adjudicates the results. Same with investigation (an Intelligence check), etc.
a lot of what you say about the difference from 2nd to 3rd is exactly what real "old school" players say about the difference between 1st and 2nd... so- my rule is to take the best of both that don't violate YOUR core belief in what it should be. Players can't just check a box for their character to have some special ability that they should have to work for
I do love Pathfinder 1e and 3.5, they're my two favorite systems, but they're absolutely not in the same category as 2eAD&D, I'll say they're older but if I'm talking about old school I am specifically referring to AD&D (both first and second edition), as well as the magenta box set and other forms of basic (I just called out magenta box specifically because that was the edition I've played)
Ascending/descending AC is a matter of taste. It is the same math. Letting things push beyond the scale into AC 25 or AC -8 is the problem. 2e is very wordy. Things that are simple become more complicated with the hunks of text, split-up tables and sometimes strange editing choices. THAC0 is one such, along with "1-8 points damage". 2e started to add class xp rules. Fighters get xp for fighting. Wizards for making scrolls and tossing spells. Thieves for treasure. Bards get xp for everything. I like char sheets that are easy to print in black and white, and not crowded with art.
1e and 2e are basically the same game, they are compatible, and they are compatible with BX (my preferred "old school") and BECMI. It wasn't until WOTC got hold of it that it suddenly became not what it was...For me, the most important aspect of "old school" is the fantasy literacy part, that is, having DMs and players that actually read fantasy (and watch fantasy movies) and take inspiration from it. I can immediately spot someone who doesn't read enough fantasy. They simply have no material to improvise NPCs (so they sound like different people, that use different words and expressions, etc.)...I agree that THACO is awful and not necessary, because you can achieve the same effect using ascending armor class with a lot less work, so the game flows better. We HATED the 1e tables for combat because they bogged the game down, but it really doesn't matter....One of the main differences of old school is that it is more procedural (especially the BX stuff). I ran a hex crawl once for a bunch of 5e players, and they had never seen anything like it. It's just a process where the turns have a sequence of steps (account for time, roll for random event, see if you get lost, etc.)...I also designed encounters that they could not possibly win, but I left ways to escape or solve the problem without combat. Nevertheless, they still tried to jump in the middle and just hack, but their 5e superheroes still couldn't win. They just needed to determine the objective and see the monsters as obstacles to get around rather than just punching bags to beat up. It's because they didn't know anything other than the 5e rules and how to manipulate them. (There was no such thing as Rules Lawyers and Min/Maxing and Murder Hobos in the 1980s D&D games. Those are WOTC inventions.)... I think Gavin Norman's "Dolmenwood" (a variant of Old School Essentials, I think it is the best rules and setting I have ever seen, based upon BX structure and fairy tale literature)...Forgotten Realms is sooooooo tired now that it would be better off to be truly forgotten...If you want to see quality old school game play, check out 3D6DTL's channel!!!! There is no better old school play on RUclips, in my opinion, to include Questing Beast as DM, (although his reviews are fantastic)! Most game play vids really bore me, and there are a lot of non-fantasy readers posing as DMs on these channels. Terrible.
Thac0 is so easy once you realize you don't need to subtract at all. Player rolls a d20 and adds any mods and tells the DM the total. The DM then adds the AC of the creature attacked to that total. Is the final total higher than the PC's thac0? They hit. Once that method was shown to me, it changed everything I thought about thac0.
@ryannilsson7955 THAC0 was only a distinct feature in 2e. THAC0 was only an option in old-school D&D (1e, B/X, BECMI, Rules Cyclopedia etc.), and was rarely ever used.
@@RealmBuilderGuy THAC0 was used but it wasn't formalised in rules, it was just a shortcut invented by players at the table to get over using the hit tables all the time, and was later 'formalised' into the actual formal rules.
@@peadarruane6582 it was in the 1e DMG as a system to assist the DM to not have to use a combat matrix. But it’s true that it was only formalized as the default system in 2e.
@@RealmBuilderGuy Thanks for clarifying. Never played AD&D, always stuck to BECMI until returning to the hobby during COVID with 5e. I just knew we used it instead of the combat matrix even though it was never in the actual formal rules, and knew that at some stage it was brought into the formal rules. :). Like on the standard becmi Character sheet they had the list of AC's on the sheet, that you filled in the hit target values. Being lazy kids, we just filled in the AC 0 box, and did the maths as required then :)
Someone looking to run this sort of system I would say go with OSRIC it is pretty much AD&D cleaned up made easier to read and not having the rules that go against each other.
Idk why Thac0 is so difficult for people to understand. There is literally a table that has AC -2 to 9 in the book. Just write it down and stop overthinking it lol
Seeing this video is another reminder, why my old second edition books will not leave the bookshelf any time soon. It's fine having the old editions in a collection, but I wouldn't enjoy playing them now as much better versions are available. Rolling for stats, XP for looting instead of milestone leveling, backup characters... I wont have any of these in my games ever again.
@@matunusdonnerhammer3423 to each their own. Am about to fire up an old school BECMI game and will include every one of those things. Different strokes for different folks.
*Even if 2nd Ed AD&D is your preferred edition, I would still invest in a 1st Ed AD&D **_Dungeon Master's Guide,_** as whatever edition you play, it is a truly invaluable resource, with mountains of useful tables, descriptions, insights, and possibilities, and no DM's Guide from any later edition can match the amount of coolness within Gygax's original masterpiece. And the 1st Ed **_Monster Manual, Fiend Folio, Monster Manual II,_** and the 1st printing of **_Deities & Demigods,_** includes many gods, devils, demons, and other entities that were removed from later editions, as Loretta Williams at TSR with 2nd Ed, and then Independent Wizards of the Coast, and WotC under Hasbro, ALL have tried to distance D&D from the 80's **_Satanic Panic,_** and then later tried to keep it as "family friendly" and inoffensive as possible, so those 1st Ed resource books have grimdark edge that no other edition offers.*
I do love the 1e books. I flip through the DMG on a regular basis
Useful for any edition!
Anything published after Gygax was booted isn't Old School
I agree. I actually buy all DMGs just to see what kind of tips they offer but the 1e version is jam packed with cool, and whacky, stuff.
You are promoting 2ed, you can be drooling out of the side of your mouth and you will still get a like on this video from me. I appreciate what you are doing here.
When I think of Old School Revival/Renaissance, 2nd edition is not what immediately comes to mind. But I agree that the split between 2nd and 3rd is a logical marker between Old School and modern D&D. It marks the point where Wizards of the Coast took the reins with a, I guess, different vision for the game and its direction. It also represents the departure from THAC0, a distinct feature of old role playing and perhaps a carry over from war gaming.
Forgot to mention one other thing you missed. Resource management. In 5e, everyone has darkvision, good berry, and someone in the party has mage hand, so no need for torches, food, or a 10' pole. I remember being on one adventure recently, and I thought of an idea that involved a 10' pole, and I asked my party members if anyone had one, and they laughed at my crazy question. Why would anyone have a ten foot pole? Why would you own something like that etc...
No need for it to poke at the pile of rags in the corner of the room, that is what your mage hand or familiar is for.
You never have that fear of being 1.5 hours deep into a dungeon, and only have two torches left, and hope that you can get out of it without getting lost on the way, and finding yourself lost in the dark.
You don't have to worry about rations, or foraging for food, because your druid just gives everyone a good beery for your breakfast etc..
All very true
I like both styles of game. My question is, why does having a 10ft" pole to poke the ground represent gripping gameplay?
Or is it because of the pace of play, slowly going through the dungeon and being safe, while risking random encounters Vs running mad through the place fleeing a deadly monster while hoping that your 15 save Vs wand will get you out of pit trap trouble?
@@troyschnierer2940I like both as well. I play in a few 5e campaigns that I enjoy immensely, but I do find myself gravitating towards the older games, that are a bit more grounded and less superheroish especially at low levels. Adds more tension, and is more relateable IMO. Then when you progress to higher levels where you are indeed very powerful, that power and epic nature feels far more earned.
@@troyschnierer2940 it’s the latter. Given that dungeon crawling is more procedural, this is a component.
@@peadarruane6582 I play a lot of Forbidden Lands solo and love the hexcrawl / survival aspects. Mundane food picking and hunting while traveling across the map I really love.
The superhero feel is spot on with 5th edition. Just started up a game in person for 5th ed and we'll see how it goes. I want to make it a bit more grounded (through slow natural healing and some other house rules) but wonder if my players are up for that.
Going to try and get my high school friends to give Basic Fantasy and some modules a go soon, fingers crossed.
1. Who says 2nd Ed. AD&D isn't Old-School?
2. I would argue that at this point 3.5 IS Old-School. I wrote an essay on the topic about a year ago, which I posted on several forums and social media sites. That essay received a very large amount of positive feedback, and agreement. At one point, the TiKTok had over 500,000 likes (I've since deleted that account), so I'm not in the minority on this.
You have said this very well. This is one of the best, if rather short, explanations of the context of old school D&D vs. 5E.
Great video. I've played video game RPG's all my life, but never tabletop. Now I want to try!
for those confused about how old school is but isnt rules-light at the same time - modern dnd traded in a lot of the game system rules bloat from AD&D, and took on character and class ability bloat. This results in a lot of choice paralysis, build-centric players playing build-centric games, and raised generations of players who only think to do things based on what their character sheet says. old school DnD doesnt turn socializing into an attack roll like modern DnD does, so it's far more important for players to describe what actions and behaviors they take on to persuade, deceive, or intimidate NPCs.
Oh the pain! I threw out my 2nd ed books which were in near mint condition. 😭 I'm a huge fan of Dolmenwood which should pretty soon open to late pledges.
I mean, TECHNICALLY you can call 3/3.5 old school now because it came out 30 years ago, god I just made myself feel old saying that. I played some 2e DnD with a friend, but we mostly played Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. I played Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, and found Neverwinter Nights, which had me hooked forever on DnD. I have LOTS of books for 3/3.5 but I've always wanted to go back to older styles. I'm just now getting into 1e/2e DnD and might even run a campaign in the near future with those older styles, so this video is awesome for that!
Great video! I am sure I played some AD&D (My Dm was my Dad, and has been playing since the 80's), but I cut my teeth on 3.5/Pathfinder. I love the role playing heavy and descriptive, heroic, problem solving world of classic. Thank you!
very good summary of the essence of old school play. Big BECMI fan myself rather than AD&D, but they definitely share common themes. Trying to get a few of my 5e mates to give BECMI a go. Videos like this are great in putting into words the things about the older game that are the 'itch' that I don't find 5e scratches, though the one 5e campaign I'm in, even though his favoured system is 5e, he started out with Basic and 1st ed, and has imported things like morale into his 5e games.
I ran 5e for many years and house ruled it heavily to give it an “old-school” feel. Then I gave up and don’t bother with 5e anymore.
I think BECMI, 1st edition and 2nd are all basically cross-compatible… Throw in White Box and all the retro-clones too! It’s like one HUGE system!!!
2ed is what I run online every Friday night. Love it and my favorite version of d&d. I also use 1e stuff to because it is made to be compatible.
I’m so glad I kept all my 1st edition books and modules. The settings are all in with them. Greyhawk, Mystara, Forgotten Realms. Judges Guild and various others. Cities of Harn. . Even picked lot of MERP , Middle Earth. Oh yes I did subscribe. Thanks , old school for me all the way.
our game in Arden Vul uses the Death and Dismemberment rules when you hit 0 hp. Sometimes death is preferable BUT it adds a fun mechanic in combat. Thats only for pcs though.
I really like those rules
omg im using this
I think i need to take another look at that rule. I've been going between a simpler d8 roll system and a bit more complex table I created a few years back. I would like it to be such that as a DM i can have it in my head and not need another table handy at the table but a bit more complex system allows for more fun results. I don't like the dead at 0 hp, but I don't like most alternatives either.
Except some time I would love to play raw and really try to survive and get the treasure. It's just not what I usually want out of an rpg. Enough lethality to keep things exciting but not quite the gamble.
WFRP likes to dismember characters. There is no difference to NPCs. You get slapped with disease and insanity as the cost of adventure.
Nice, sir! 2nd edition was pretty awesome indeed! Thnx 🤓👊
0:04 oh I am absolutely interested in EXACTLY that edition lol (been running it for years)
I started off with D&D and still have my white box. I didn't play it too much because we alternated with Empire of the Petal Throne (EPT) which we preferred. I moved for work and played more D&D and AD&D when it came out as well as EPT. The new city had a very large gaming community and I once counted something like 80 different RPGs I had played. I moved back to my original city and play EPT, Pathfinder, 5th Ed and Scion. As a minimaxer Pathfinder is my favourite system.
I’ve always wanted to play EPT.
@@RealmBuilderGuy It's probably the richest and most different world.
To be fair to skills, 1e AD&D had a secondary skill list on p12 of the DMG and 2e carried that list over and added non-weapon proficiencies. The skills in 3.5e and 5e are an extension of that. Great video!
most of this I had no idea what your saying but at the same time i learned alot!!! I love the change of channel plan and hope to see tutorials to help going forward!
I saw a video on Thac0 the other day that opened my eyes. They said the beauty of Thac0 is that I keeps the values within the values of the 20 sided die. I hear in 5e it can go beyond the 20 values where a negative number for armor is rare and magical.
That’s very true. It keeps it within the scope of the numerical values of a d20. “Modern” D&D (from 3e onwards, including Pathfinder) expands it well beyond the value of 20
Using THAC0 with AC -6 and such rapidly skews proportions. A level 0 townie should have a chance to hit a bloke in heavy armour. Not big but it should be there.
Great to have more old school folks keeping the game alive! If you ever want to collab, drop me a note.
Not playing in the same team (DCC), still very good video doing a great job at describing most fundamental differences between new and old school. Useful and well done!
Being roughly around your age, I started also with 2nd edition and can remember basic red box set my step brother had too. We always used roll below ability checks in a d20 for stuff like perception (Wisdom ability check or an Intelligence). Or any other checks. It would be , what do you want to do and what ability correlates with that the most. It's in the books to do that. It didn't used to be in very early editions mind you.
There’s no edition of D&D i would run as-written, but 2e is easiest to fix. Ascending AC & attack bonus instead of THAC0, then grab a few feats for warrior classes from 5e. A bit more hp for overnight rests, & a save vs death at zero hp, & you’re good to go. Also: give XP fr monsters slain & for gold _spent,_ so they, you know, spend it.
I'm a moldvay fan myself
Treasure as XP is the one "old school" trait that I do not use, I stick with what 2e recommends.
Once they eliminated the "Harlot" table, it wasn't Old School anymore. lol
😂 fair enough
I'm thinking about taking my players through Night Below after we play His Majesty the Worm a little bit.
I also have the pdfs of TAGDQ from drivethrurpg and I'm also considering running that using OSE.
I think only one other of my players started their ttrpg journey with AD&D 2e, the rest with 3.5 or 5e. I've been running them through the OSR gauntlet lately (Outcast Silver Raiders, Mörk Borg) and they have really enjoyed it.
Random encounter means random not "balanced !!" so yep... this is the nature of things. Maybe it's not your day and you should retreat / clear off / run away ... Great content.
This change made it so players think they're the DM and that they're unkillable.
Awesome review. I have sent a link to my 5E group I am weaning off wotc. It should probably be mentioned that some games like OSRIC and Basic Fantasy Game are free if you just want to use the pdfs.
Thac0 is an amazing mechanic that is difficult for most people to totally understand.
Which is incredibly sad
idk if I'd call it amazing, but it's essentially the inverse of ascending armor class.
It's just the dice math simplified
"You need to hit a 13, you have +7, 13-7=6, you need a 6 at least"
The first time you see it it's bizarre but it's the above example in inverse and centered around a 0, the 13 might be a -2, you need to get to this -2 to hit
@@elgatochurrothat... That's not how it's done. THAC0 is To Hit Armor Class Zero. Your THAC0 for a 1st level fighter is 20. You must roll a 20 to hit AC 0. 20-0=20
But say you want to hit an orc with an AC 8. 20 - 8 = 12. You need to roll a 12 to hit the orc.
Then you go up a level and your THACO changes to 19.
You're fighting the same orc with AC 8. You need 11 to hit it. 19 - 8 = 11. And so on.
Part of the problem is newer players looking at descending AC don't understand it. Back in the old days of miniatures TT wargames, the best armor was 1st class. It had an AC of 1. An unarmored truck might have an AC of 9 or 10. Think of it like a top 10 list. The best armor is 1st place among the types of armor and the worst is 10.
To Hit was "pre-rendered" on your character sheet but then someone figured out THAC0 just simplified it.
@@mr.pavone9719 so it's still an inversion
Insight is just a Wisdom check. The only time there is a difference is when you have proficiency in insight. So yes, you can do insight checks in 1e/2e; the DM just asks for a wisdom check and adjudicates the results.
Same with investigation (an Intelligence check), etc.
a lot of what you say about the difference from 2nd to 3rd is exactly what real "old school" players say about the difference between 1st and 2nd... so- my rule is to take the best of both that don't violate YOUR core belief in what it should be. Players can't just check a box for their character to have some special ability that they should have to work for
I do love Pathfinder 1e and 3.5, they're my two favorite systems, but they're absolutely not in the same category as 2eAD&D, I'll say they're older but if I'm talking about old school I am specifically referring to AD&D (both first and second edition), as well as the magenta box set and other forms of basic (I just called out magenta box specifically because that was the edition I've played)
This was my first edition as well!
AD&D 2 ed is the best one.
Ascending/descending AC is a matter of taste. It is the same math. Letting things push beyond the scale into AC 25 or AC -8 is the problem.
2e is very wordy. Things that are simple become more complicated with the hunks of text, split-up tables and sometimes strange editing choices. THAC0 is one such, along with "1-8 points damage".
2e started to add class xp rules. Fighters get xp for fighting. Wizards for making scrolls and tossing spells. Thieves for treasure. Bards get xp for everything.
I like char sheets that are easy to print in black and white, and not crowded with art.
Great video, Matt! I have talked about the old school vibe of Elden Ring as well!!
Thanks JM! I appreciate it. And yeah, the ties between old-school sandbox play and Elden Ring are striking IMO.
1e and 2e are basically the same game, they are compatible, and they are compatible with BX (my preferred "old school") and BECMI. It wasn't until WOTC got hold of it that it suddenly became not what it was...For me, the most important aspect of "old school" is the fantasy literacy part, that is, having DMs and players that actually read fantasy (and watch fantasy movies) and take inspiration from it. I can immediately spot someone who doesn't read enough fantasy. They simply have no material to improvise NPCs (so they sound like different people, that use different words and expressions, etc.)...I agree that THACO is awful and not necessary, because you can achieve the same effect using ascending armor class with a lot less work, so the game flows better. We HATED the 1e tables for combat because they bogged the game down, but it really doesn't matter....One of the main differences of old school is that it is more procedural (especially the BX stuff). I ran a hex crawl once for a bunch of 5e players, and they had never seen anything like it. It's just a process where the turns have a sequence of steps (account for time, roll for random event, see if you get lost, etc.)...I also designed encounters that they could not possibly win, but I left ways to escape or solve the problem without combat. Nevertheless, they still tried to jump in the middle and just hack, but their 5e superheroes still couldn't win. They just needed to determine the objective and see the monsters as obstacles to get around rather than just punching bags to beat up. It's because they didn't know anything other than the 5e rules and how to manipulate them. (There was no such thing as Rules Lawyers and Min/Maxing and Murder Hobos in the 1980s D&D games. Those are WOTC inventions.)... I think Gavin Norman's "Dolmenwood" (a variant of Old School Essentials, I think it is the best rules and setting I have ever seen, based upon BX structure and fairy tale literature)...Forgotten Realms is sooooooo tired now that it would be better off to be truly forgotten...If you want to see quality old school game play, check out 3D6DTL's channel!!!! There is no better old school play on RUclips, in my opinion, to include Questing Beast as DM, (although his reviews are fantastic)! Most game play vids really bore me, and there are a lot of non-fantasy readers posing as DMs on these channels. Terrible.
I’m a big OSE fan and watch 3d6DTL’s great content. I’m also a Dolmenwood backer.
Thac0 is so easy once you realize you don't need to subtract at all. Player rolls a d20 and adds any mods and tells the DM the total. The DM then adds the AC of the creature attacked to that total. Is the final total higher than the PC's thac0? They hit. Once that method was shown to me, it changed everything I thought about thac0.
I 100% agree. That’s how I’ve been handling it for nearly 30 years.
Does the same work for monsters attacking PC'S, just the opposite? Add PC's AC to monsters Thaco?
@@BX_Disciple it’s the same formula, yes
THAC0 is not hard, but 3E's "To Hit" system is much better.
The answer is not on the character sheet is the best way to put the difference between old school and 5e.
Great video dude!
@ryannilsson7955
THAC0 was only a distinct feature in 2e. THAC0 was only an option in old-school D&D (1e, B/X, BECMI, Rules Cyclopedia etc.), and was rarely ever used.
Fair enough
@@RealmBuilderGuy THAC0 was used but it wasn't formalised in rules, it was just a shortcut invented by players at the table to get over using the hit tables all the time, and was later 'formalised' into the actual formal rules.
@@peadarruane6582 it was in the 1e DMG as a system to assist the DM to not have to use a combat matrix. But it’s true that it was only formalized as the default system in 2e.
@@RealmBuilderGuy Thanks for clarifying. Never played AD&D, always stuck to BECMI until returning to the hobby during COVID with 5e. I just knew we used it instead of the combat matrix even though it was never in the actual formal rules, and knew that at some stage it was brought into the formal rules. :). Like on the standard becmi Character sheet they had the list of AC's on the sheet, that you filled in the hit target values. Being lazy kids, we just filled in the AC 0 box, and did the maths as required then :)
Someone looking to run this sort of system I would say go with OSRIC it is pretty much AD&D cleaned up made easier to read and not having the rules that go against each other.
Idk why Thac0 is so difficult for people to understand. There is literally a table that has AC -2 to 9 in the book. Just write it down and stop overthinking it lol
❤ 100 percent
I have zero against 3.x. But it is not old school DnD. Old school DnD is pretty much pre-3.0. I love 2E, and you can run any earlier module with it.
Basic fantasy rpg?
Seeing this video is another reminder, why my old second edition books will not leave the bookshelf any time soon. It's fine having the old editions in a collection, but I wouldn't enjoy playing them now as much better versions are available. Rolling for stats, XP for looting instead of milestone leveling, backup characters... I wont have any of these in my games ever again.
@@matunusdonnerhammer3423 to each their own. Am about to fire up an old school BECMI game and will include every one of those things. Different strokes for different folks.
Could you recommend some websites to find groups?
Local Facebook groups are often very good for this
discord the appropriate rpg- you’re welcome
Thaco is just AC. It's not complicated
That aint OLD SCHOOL...thats that new fangled 2nd edition.
OSRIC is not AD&D 1e.
There is a lot of borrowed content from AD&D, but OSRIC is watered down.
The most I struggle with about this is exp....it's tedious as hell
When did 2nd edition become "old school"?
Old school is 3 pamphlets in a white box.
I read the title and thought it'd be awesome to see someone ruin old school D&D and then I realized this wasn't that kind of video.
2nd ed isn't Old School.
Just get the dungeons and dragons rules cyclopedia.
That is an excellent book
1e AD&D. Why go OSRIC?
The overall OSRIC just clarifies things a bit, especially for players not used to Gygaxian prose
Pretend all you want but anything published after Gygax was booted isn't Old School. Anyone who started in 1990 is nowhere near Old School.
I started d&d way back 1982 with basic and then advanced. Great times and as a dm 90% of the time the game was about story and adventure.
RuneQuest 2nd ed. is much better but I'm biased. ;)
felauf
"PromoSM"
2ed is what I run online every Friday night. Love it and my favorite version of d&d. I also use 1e stuff to because it is made to be compatible.